November 20, 2025 • 55 mins
In 2007, a white nationalist known for his addiction to causing drama claimed he saw Ron Paul at a nazi supper club. Ron Paul supporters, including those on nazi message boards, pushed back. The feud that ensued led to Curtis Maynard's fall from grace as a holocaust denial blogger - he'd been keeping a secret from his readers.
Sources:
https://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/26/us/politics/ron-paul-disowns-extremists-views-but-doesnt-disavow-the-support.html
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2008/jan/16/guiltbyassociation
https://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/27/pageoneplus/corrections.html
https://www.mediamatters.org/white-nationalism/white-nationalist-writer-peter-gemma-resigns-sarasota-gop-executive-committee
https://www.c-span.org/program/public-affairs-event/conservativism-and-foreign-policy/182250
https://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/21/world/americas/21iht-hate.4.17140643.html
https://roanoke.com/news/local/nazi-leader-bill-white----in-his-own-words/article_7e5c7e03-bdcf-5542-a6be-0433ba2d7aee.html
https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/assault-gets-even-ugliercontroversy-escalates-over-sexual-violence-campus/
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Cool Zone Media. In December of two thousand and seven,
a neo Nazi named Bill White was very angry and
very online. That wasn't out of character for him. His
habit of lashing out that anyone he disagreed with would
(00:23):
eventually land him in federal prison. He threatened and timidated, docked,
and harassed people for years, members of the jury that
convicted white supremacist leader Matt Hale, a prosecutor handling a
case against members of a white supremacist militia, and Florida
tenants who sued him for housing discrimination, and his own
(00:45):
ex wife. He was a menace on the Nazi message boards,
and just before Christmas in two thousand and seven, he
got into a fight with a former friend that would
send that man into a deadly downward spiral. I'm Molly Conger,
(01:06):
and this is the lost episode of Weird Little Guys.
(01:27):
For all the side stories, digressions, tangents, and the months
this episode has been lost, this has always been a
story about Curtis Maynard, the Holocaust denial blogger who murdered
his ex wife and then died by suicide in twenty ten.
But if I'm being entirely honest with you, it's really
(01:51):
only barely about Curtis Maynard. His story, told on its
own is pretty short, and you already know it. It
was in part one. He was a Holocaust denier who
hoped to make a career as a white supremacist writer.
He had a short rise to minor fame in his
horrible little corner of the Internet, and then a sudden
(02:13):
fall from grace. He spiraled after his second divorce, and
he shot himself in the head while fleeing from the
police after murdering the mother of his children. I'm not
interested in a straightforward true crime narrative about an act
of domestic violence. In the story about Curtis Baynard, that
(02:36):
I think is more interesting. He's only a bit player.
The stories playing out all around him in the last
few years of his life are full of weird little guys,
guys like Bill White. William Alexander White is not a
(03:01):
man I'm quite ready to explain. Even still, his role
in this story makes him unavoidable, and I will write
about him eventually, because he's a man I've spent years
thinking about and hundreds of hours reading, mostly by way
(03:22):
of his voluminous vexatious court filings from federal prison. He'll
have his day on the show, I promise, But until
then he is going to keep popping up in a
lot of other people's stories. He's almost always there. You
might even remember him from a brief aside in an
(03:43):
episode that aired last November, the episode about Ethan Melzer,
the US Army soldier who leaked classified troop movements to
what he thought was Al Qaeda, but it turned out
to be a mentally ill Canadian teenager. In that episode,
I was talking about the ideological shift within the neo
Nazi group Adam Woffin, as some of its members gravitated
(04:06):
towards the magical satanism of the Order of Nine Angles.
And it wasn't until several members of Adam Woffin ended
up in court that it was revealed that Joshua Caleb
Sutter had been working for the FBI for a decade
and as a dedicated reader of Bill White's lawsuits against
the government. I know that Bill had been saying that
(04:29):
for years. I mean, Bill has a lot of theories
about who might be an informant, but you can't deny
he was right about Sutter. Bill White is a Nazi.
That much is probably obvious by now, but he's also
(04:49):
kind of a drama queen. Before he became a jail
house lawyer, he was an incessant blogger, and in all
his years in the movement, he was never not a problem.
He was stirring up shit in a way that can
only be described as pathological, and that might be because
(05:13):
it was normally. I think it would be unfair to
speculate about someone's mental health based on what they're writing
in their blog. But in Bill's case, I have some
proof because for some reason, he once filed a complete
copy of his own psyche vow as an exhibit in
(05:36):
a court case. So I can tell you that several
prison psychiatrists and court appointed forensic psychologists have diagnosed Bill
White with narcissistic personality disorder. That's a term that's seen
a lot of abuse and popular online discourse, reducing it
(05:58):
to a meaningless epithet her that someone who's behaving badly,
But it is a real clinical diagnosis, albeit a controversial one,
and it's a term with an actual meaning. Drawing directly
from one of his evaluations, the doctor wrote the essential
(06:18):
features of narcissistic personality disorder are a pervasive pattern of grandiosity,
need for admiration, and lack of empathy that begins in
early adulthood and is present in a variety of contexts.
Histrionic traits include a propensity for needing to be the
center of attention, while antisocial traits refer to engaging in
(06:39):
activities that run counter to mainstream social norms. Now, I
want to be clear, I'm not saying that everyone with
a personality disorder is a bad person. Having a personality
disorder doesn't make you a Nazi, it doesn't make you
a criminal. It just so happens that Bill White has
(07:01):
a personality disorder and he is a Nazi and a criminal.
They don't always go together. This is a difficult condition
to live with. There's no cure, and the nature of
the condition often means that those living with it don't
feel like they need treatment. But there are people who
(07:21):
manage to live relatively normal lives with the support of
things like dialectical behavior therapy. So my intention is not
to slander everyone living with a personality disorder, but I
do think the diagnosis sheds some light on Bill White's behavior.
He needs to be right. He needs to be the
(07:46):
center of attention. He'll do almost anything to get that attention,
positive or negative, it barely matters, and any perceived slight
against him all the justification He needs to go absolutely
nuclear in response. The white power movement is full of
(08:11):
men who attack their enemies, and there are plenty of
them in the movement going after each other. There are
power struggles, ideological disagreements, and just plain friction between guys
with poor social skills. None of that is that unusual.
But even in that milieu, Bill White stands out because
(08:35):
Bill White had beef with everybody, and it was Bill
White and his insatiable need for attention that drew Curtis
Maynard into an online argument in December of two thousand
and seven. It was Bill White's irresistible urge to lash
out at anyone who crossed him that ended up ruining
(08:58):
Curtis Maynard's reputation among the racists who read his Holocaust
denile blog. On December nineteenth, two thousand and seven, Bill
White made a pretty big claim. He logged onto Vanguard
News Network, a neo Nazi forum, and started a thread
with the title ron Paul lies about lack of involvement
(09:22):
with white nationalists, the Post read comrades. I have kept
quiet about the Ron Paul campaign for a while because
I didn't see any need to say anything that would
cause any trouble. However, reading the latest release from his
campaign spokesman, I am compelled to tell the truth about
Ron Paul's extensive involvement in white nationalism. Both Congressman Paul
(09:47):
and his aides regularly meet with members of the Stormfront,
set American Renaissance, the Institute for Historic Review, and others
at the Tara Tai restaurant in Arlington, Virginia on Wednesdays.
This is part of a dinner that was originally organized
by Pat Buchanan, Sam Francis, and Joe so Braun and
has since been mostly taken over by the Council of
(10:09):
Conservative Citizens. I have attended these dinners, seen Paul and
his aides there, and been invited to his offices in
Washington to discuss policy. For his spokesman to call white
racialism small ideology and claim white activists are wasting their
money trying to influence Paul is ridiculous. Paul is a
(10:32):
white nationalist of the Stormfront type who has always kept
his racial views and his views about world Judaism quiet
because of his political position. I don't know that it
is necessarily good for Paul to expose this. However, he
really is someone with extensive ties to white nationalism, and
for him to deny that in the belief he will
(10:52):
be more respectable by denying it is outrageous. And I
hate seeing people in the press who denounce racialism because
they think it is not fashionable. Bill White, Commander American
National Socialist Workers Party, Now, is that true? The short
(11:14):
answer is legally no. I won't say that this Nazi
is telling the truth. Is it possible? Kind of yeah?
Probably not, not exactly, not down to the details, but
maybe a little yeah. But we'll get to that almost instantly,
(11:43):
I mean, with a curious quickness. Conservative blogger Charles Foster
Johnson picked up the story and he got a post
up on his blog Little Green Footballs within hours of
Bill posting this on the Nazi Forum and Johnson dug up.
But looked like pretty damning receipts. Ron Paul's campaign finance
(12:06):
reports filed with the Federal Election Commission do show that
someone used campaign funds at a restaurant called Tara Tie
in Arlington eleven times in two thousand and seven, spending
about forty dollars once a month or so. Now, there's
no proving anything here. This was too many years ago,
(12:28):
and no one who could still tell the truth about
this has any incentive to do so. But I can
tell you what I think happened here. Bill White made
up a pretty convincing story that has some elements of truth,
but he messed up some of the details. The white
(12:50):
nationalists dinner meetings he's talking about were real, but he
got the name of the restaurant wrong. Until his death
in two thousand and five, white supremacist writer Sam Francis
did host monthly yet togethers at a Thai restaurant in
northern Virginia, but that restaurant was called Sala Tie, not
(13:13):
Tara Tai. It just so happens that Tara Tai was
about a quarter a mile away from Ron Paul's campaign
headquarters in two thousand and seven, So far from being
a smoking gun that proves Ron Paul was going to
a monthly Nazi dinner party, It just looks like that
was the preferred takeout destination for someone on the campaign staff.
(13:37):
But in two thousand and seven, those white nationalist dinners
at Sala Tie were still going on, organized by a
longtime Council of Conservative Citizens member named Peter Gemma. Gemma
responded to White's allegation, writing.
Speaker 2 (13:56):
I read those dinners. Rob Paul was never there, nor
did we run some sort of neo Nazi meeting. We
had academics and activists of national repute. The audience were
people who work at government, businessmed and grassroots types too.
Bill White ever came to the meetings. He didn't use
his real name. He doesn't even get the name of
the restaurant correctly.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
I don't think anybody's telling the whole truth here. Jemma
claims he never saw Ron Paul or Bill White, and
that might be true. But he also claims the dinners
weren't Nazi meetups, and that's not true. He was at
the time the media relations director for a nonprofit called
(14:41):
the National Policy Institute. Yes, that National Policy Institute, the
same one that would later appoint Richard Spencer as chairman,
and Peter Jemma had more than a few ties to
the movement. He was quite publicly associated with this kind
of stuff, at least as far back as two thousand
(15:02):
and four, when he gave a speech at the annual
Holocaust Denial conference held by the Institute for Historic Review.
In two thousand and five, the Washington Post ran a
story about him hosting a book signing for David Irving,
but for some reason, it took until twenty eighteen for
the Republican Party Committee in Sarasota County, Florida to vote
(15:25):
to remove him from their executive committee. He passed away
in January of twenty twenty five, and his obituary mentions
his work as a staffer for Ronald Reagan and says
he wrote articles for many publications, but the obituary does
not mention that many of those publications were explicitly white
(15:45):
supremacist outlets like Occidental Quarterly and v Dair. But on
the subject of these dinners, we have a lot of
claims from a lot of men who aren't telling the truth.
Bill White is claiming he saw ron Paul attend. Were
definitely real. I mean, the dinners were real. It's just
(16:08):
a question of who was there. We know they were
attended by the intellectual giants of the white supremacist world,
such that those exist as well as white supremacists with
connections to more mainstream conservative politics. Peter Jemma himself was
a senior staff member of Pat Buchanan's two thousand election campaign,
(16:32):
and he probably met Bill White back then. White claims
that he led the petition drive for Buchanan's candidacy in Maryland. Sure,
Bill White's a liar, But a photo taken by a
Washington Post photographer in March of two thousand shows Bill
White standing right behind Pat Buchanan at a campaign event
(16:53):
in Bethesda. But the question at hand is still, did
Ron Paul ever attend those dinners? I don't know.
Speaker 3 (17:06):
When.
Speaker 1 (17:06):
Virginia Heffernan, writing for the New York Times, picked up
the story from the blogisphere. The Ron Paul campaign quickly
issued a denial, and The New York Times pulled the
story and issued a correction. The campaign flatly denied that
Ron Paul had ever attended such a dinner or met
Bill White, although they did admit that Norm Singleton, ron
(17:31):
Paul's legislative director, had met Bill White quote at a
dinner gathering of conservatives several years ago, after which Singleton
expressed his indignation that the views espoused by White to
the organizer of the dinner. So it seems like the
nugget of truth in Bill's post as that he did
(17:55):
meet a man who worked for Ron Paul at one
of those Nazi dinners, but it was a few years ago,
so he didn't quite get the name of the restaurant right,
And the timing tells us something about Bill White's decision
to make this story up too. December nineteenth, two thousand
(18:15):
and seven, was the exact same day that the Ron
Paul campaign issued a statement that they would not be
returning a five hundred dollars campaign donation made by Don Black,
the webmaster of the Naziside Stormfront. Don Black was a
vocal supporter of the Paul campaign, as were many Stormfront posters,
(18:41):
and Don Black boasted on Stormfront that dozens of his
members were active campaign volunteers and donors. A photo had
recently surfaced of Ron Paul and Don Black at a
campaign event in Fort Lauderdale in September. Actually, if you
look at Don Black's Wikipedia page right now, the photo
(19:02):
of his face on that page is actually cropped from
this picture. So if you go to Don Black's Wikipedia page,
there's a picture and it's just Don Black's face. But
know that if you zoom out, Ron Paul is right there.
By December, there were calls for Ron Paul to return
(19:23):
these Nazi campaign donations, and it's obvious that this is
the story Bill White is responding to. He quotes directly
from the campaign press release that had been issued just
a few hours earlier, with a Paul campaign aid saying quote,
if someone with small ideologies happens to contribute money to
(19:43):
Ron thinking he can influence Ron in any way, he's
wasted his money. End quote. But Ron Paul himself refused
to disavow the support of what nationalists, saying quote, if
they want to endorse me, they're endorsing what I do
or say. It has nothing to do with endorsing what
(20:04):
they say. I think the best explanation is that Ron
Paul hurt Bill White's feelings. That small Ideology's comment clearly
got under his skin. He echoed it in his post.
He felt disrespected. If Nazee money is good enough for
(20:29):
Ron Paul, why does Ron Paul think he's too good
for Nazis? So he lashed out. Ron Paul hurt him,
and he wanted to hurt Ron Paul. Right back, and
he was media savvy enough to understand that Paul was
particularly vulnerable at that moment when it came to stories
(20:49):
about his associations with white supremacists. So my best guess
here is that the claim he's making is not technically
entire true. I don't think it's likely that Bill White
ever sat at a dinner table with Ron Paul at
a meetup organized by the Council of Conservative Citizens at
(21:11):
a Thai restaurant in Arlington, Virginia. I don't think every
single one of those details was ever true. At the
same time, I do think it's almost certainly true that
Bill White met Ron Paul's legislative director Norm Singleton at
one of those Nazi dinners back in two thousand and two.
That seems to align with the campaign's owned admissions. There
(21:35):
are things in the story that are definitely true. Paul
campaign's staff did have dinner with white supremacists. Ron Paul
did take money from Nazis. Nazis did volunteer for the campaign.
Ron Paul did speak at events organized by white supremacists.
(21:56):
And then there are elements that could be true. Things
you can't prove or disprove, but sound possible. Did Ron
Paul campaign staff attend other dinners? Did Paul himself ever
meet privately with any of the men from those dinners?
We don't know. Bill White invented a story that has
(22:19):
a loose lineage that trace us back to some kind
of truth.
Speaker 2 (22:25):
Right.
Speaker 1 (22:25):
He made up a story based in some snippets of truth,
and he crafted this story to capitalize on the headline
news of the day to soothe his own ego. He
didn't care what happened to Ron Paul. He didn't care
about anything other than creating a shit storm that he
(22:46):
could be in the middle of. But honestly, he didn't
actually need to make things up if he wanted to
remind everyone that Ron Paul was palling around with white Soprists.
(23:16):
Just two months before Bill White made that post, back
in October of two thousand and seven, Ron Paul had
in fact been the guest of honor at a different
restaurant at an event hosted by Nazis. And there's no
doubt this time about whether or not Ron Paul accepted
(23:36):
the invitation, because, in addition to the two hundred sum
people packed into the Boulevard Wood Grill in Arlington, Virginia.
There were cameras. A c SPAN camera crew captured the entire.
Speaker 4 (23:50):
Event before we began. I'd like to thank there are
other members of the executive board, Dan McCarthy and Kevin
Deanna and Marcus Epstein who actually founded the club just
around a year and a half ago, and their Tyler's
efforts are invaluable. Thank you.
Speaker 1 (24:11):
Do you recognize that voice? I think some of you might.
Maybe you're normal and that fifteen second clip didn't make
you almost drop your phone in surprise as you demanded
to know. Is that Richard Spencer? Because it is. That's
Richard Bertrand. Spencer, best known for such highlights as getting
(24:34):
punched in the face on camera at Trump's first inauguration
or having a screeching meltdown at an Airbnb because he
didn't get to give his speech at the Unite the
Right rally in Charlottesville in twenty seventeen, ten years before
he helped plan the Nazi rally that killed Heather Higher,
he had just dropped out of a PhD program at
(24:54):
Duke University to pursue his career in racism full time.
He was living in Arlington and working as the assistant
editor at the American Conservative magazine. The event Ron Paul
was speaking at that night was put on by a
group called the Robert A. Taft Club, founded a year
earlier by Richard Spencer, Kevin Deanna and Marcus Epstein. Epstein
(25:19):
described the club as a forum for lively debate about
the important issues that divide the right. And while Richard
Spencer's name is probably the only one of those three
that sounds familiar to you, Kevin Deanna and Marcus Epstein
were and are deeply entrenched in white supremacist circles. Kevin
(25:42):
Dianna and Marcus Epstein met in college at William and Mary,
where they both wrote for and edited these school's right
leaning student newspaper, The Remnant. Both men were named as
defendants when the paper was sued for defamation in two
thousand and six. The paper had been putting up flyers
all over campus naming a female student who had recently
(26:05):
accused another student of rape. In their articles defending this practice,
which they justified by accusing women of lying about being raped,
they brought up what they felt was a similar case,
charges against a fraternity brother that had been dropped in
two thousand and four. The editors of the Remnant didn't
(26:27):
seem at all troubled by complicated truths like the fact
that the victim had been a sixteen year old high
school girl, or that the fraternity brother accused of raping, sodomizing,
and penetrating her with an object admitted to getting the
miner drunk to have sex with her. He was ultimately
(26:48):
convicted only of two counts of contributing to the delinquency
of a minor. The paper called that teenage girl a
wannabe victim, a con artist, a liar, and a fraud.
The lawsuit was settled out of court just a few
weeks before this event with Ron Paul. After graduation, Kevin
(27:12):
Deanna and Marcus Epstein founded a group called Youth for
Western Civilization and started establishing chapters of this white supremacist
student group on college campuses future where Little Guy's subject,
Matthew Heinbach would later serve as president of the chapter
of Youth for Western Civilization at Tawson University in Maryland,
(27:34):
and Kevin Deanna, under the pseudonym Gregory Hood still writes
for American Renaissance, the white nationalist outlet that holds annual
race science conferences. Just a few months before this event
with Ron Paul, Marcus Epstein was stumbling home drunk one
night when he saw a black woman minding her own business.
Unable to control himself, apparently, he screamed the N word
(27:57):
at her and then charged at her and, according to
multiple news reports about this incident, tried to karate chop her.
He would eventually plead guilty to assaults, but his boss,
Congressman Tom Tancredo, didn't think the incident was serious enough
to fire him, and Pat Buchanan's sister, Babe Buchanan, told
(28:21):
reporters that the incident was out of character for Marcus
and chalked it up to some problems in his personal life.
So in the fall of two thousand and seven, Ron
Paul was photographed with his arm around Stormfront webmaster Don Black,
and he got a standing ovation after an introduction from
(28:42):
Richard Spencer and an event organized by a guy who'd
recently assaulted a woman he didn't know just because she
was black. Bill White didn't need to make things up
if he wanted to draw attention to Ron Paul's cozy
relationship with men who were outlaw interracial marriage or whatever.
(29:04):
But Bill White loves to start drama, so he logged
onto that Nazi message board and he started posting. The
response was intense. There were four hundred and forty one
replies to his original thread. Most of the posters on
Vanguard News seemed to have been ardent Ron Paul supporters,
(29:28):
so they were frustrated with Bill for hurting Ron Paul's campaign.
But beyond that, opinions varied. Some users felt very confident that,
of course Ron Paul was really one of them, but
they understood that it would be political suicide for him
to admit it. Others felt that Ron Paul wasn't quite
(29:51):
aligned with them in that way, but they agreed with
him about a lot of other issues, and his campaign
events were a great recruitment pool for the movement. One
user posted, I know a lot of white supremacists involved
in the Ron Paul campaign. I wish he wouldn't shun
away his true supporters. Another said Bill's revelation wasn't even news.
(30:15):
Everybody in DC knows about Ron Paul's white nationalist connections.
Former Klansmen and National Alliance organizer Ron Dogget weighed in,
saying he'd been to those dinners plenty of times, and
he never saw Ron Paul. Mostly people were pissed off
at Bill. One poster wrote, You're just a goddamn loose
(30:38):
cannon who wants to be in the limelight and you
don't care what you have to do to get there.
Why do you pack up your shit and leave and
try to incriminate and poison the well against someone other
than Ron Paul? Another politely chimed in, writing, while I
find this information interesting and intriguing, I have to join
the chorus here and asking how the fuck do this
(31:00):
help Ron Paul? In white nationalism? Todd van Bieber, a
man whose faces badly scarred from the time he nearly
blew himself up trying to build bombs. He planned to
set off at Disney World to distract the police while
Nazi's Rob Banks to fund a race war was exasperated.
He posted asking Bill if this grand standing was more
(31:21):
important than ending the Federal Reserve. James Leshkevich, posting as
Yankee Jim, seemed to be having a good time watching
the drama unfold. Every dozen posts or so, there's Yankee
Jim making some wise crack, posting laughing emojis, and comments
like you sure do know how to get attention. Bill
(31:43):
The poster known as Yankee Chim, died two months later.
He hanged himself in his garage after beating his wife
to death. Curtis Maynard, an active forum poster and rabbid
Ron Paul supporters, the thread later that night, and he
made the one hundred and forty second post in the thread.
Speaker 2 (32:08):
Sounds like bullshit to me. I will say that RP
isn't afraid of talking with those holding an alternative view,
but it seems a little far fetched that he'd be
knowingly meeting with and shaking the hands of Bill White
and any stormfronters. I'm calling total bullshit for now.
Speaker 1 (32:26):
And then Curtis Maynard jumped into action to defend Ron
Paul's honor. He fired off a blog post accusing Bill
White of secretly working for Massade. That's right. The most
logical explanation he could come up with was that Bill
White wasn't a real Nazi at all, but he was
(32:48):
a Jewish agent provocateur trying to prevent Nazis from getting
Ron Paul elected president. In Curtis Maynard's opinion, that picture
of Ron Paul with Don black Well that's obviously fake.
Everybody knows Don Black is fat and that man looks thin.
Maynard frantically scoured the internet for proof that Bill White
(33:11):
was wrong, and he posted links to news coverage he
felt refuted those claims. After a couple of posts like that,
another user warned him, writing, don't egg him on. If
you're not careful, he'll out every one he knows of.
(33:31):
This is how William works. Curtis's post was the last
word in that thread. On Christmas Eve, he wrote, if
the elections were held today and the Jews weren't able
to manipulate the tally, Ron Paul would receive the majority
of the vote of both parties. Anyone telling you any
(33:52):
differently is either stupid, delusional, or complicit. In another thread,
someone linked to Curtis's blog post accusing Bill White of
being a Jewish agent. Now that thread, that one got
out of hand, devolving into an argument between April Gade
and Alicia Strome. Those aren't really names you need to
(34:16):
know for this story, but if you are an avid listener,
you have heard them before. Alicia you might remember as
the second wife of Nazi pedophile Kevin Alfred Strone from
the very first episode of the show. April Gade is
the mother of the twin girls who made up the
short lived white power music duo Brush and Blue, and
(34:40):
in the thread, Alicia shamed April for parading her daughters
around in Hitler T shirts to make money, and April
reminded Alicia that she said nothing about her ex husband
using pictures of the twins for sexual gratification. It really
went off the rails. But the strangest part is how
(35:01):
the conversation ended. Curtis chimed in. Replying to a picture
of April Gade's daughters in those Hitler T shirts.
Speaker 3 (35:10):
He wrote, quote, is it wrong of me to take
my six month old daughter and use women's makeup to
paint a beautiful Hitler mustache on her upper lip?
Speaker 2 (35:22):
She's so cute, looks just like baby Hitler. She has
those brown locks sweeping across her forehead and everything.
Speaker 1 (35:33):
The site was on fire for days, multiple threads, hundreds
of posts. Scores of users were mad at Bill White.
They were yelling at him, making fun of him, calling
him names, digging up old allegations and coming up with
new ones. And maybe he tried to ruin some of
them too. I don't know, but I know he couldn't
(35:59):
forgive Curtis. In January two thousand and eight, Curtis Maynard
was needling Bill White. He was still outraged at the
damaged Bill had done to Ron Paul, and he wasn't
going to let it go. He created a fake website
for White's organization, the ANSWP, and declared himself the chairman
(36:22):
of it. He wrote open letters to Bill White on
his blog and on the forums, trying to goad him
into another fight. In March, he gleefully reported that there
had been a fire at one of Bill White's rental
properties in Virginia, and he accused White of hiring an
anti racist organization to set the fire in order to
(36:45):
bolster his reputation for being racist against his black tenants.
It's a very roundabout, complicated sort of theory. In the
early months of two thousand and eight, a supporter of
Bill's made posts on the forums calling for Curtis to
be banned from the site. So another user made a
(37:06):
pull one of them should be banned, but which one
Bill lost. People wanted Bill White banded from the forums
more than they wanted to ban Curtis Maynard and Bill
responded by complaining that well, Curtis actually broke the forum's
most important rule. Posters on Vanguard News Network are not
(37:30):
allowed to accuse other posters of being Jewish unless you
have proof. In May, Bill claimed that Curtis Maynard didn't
even exist and that the account was actually run by
a black gay man hired by the Southern Poverty Law
Center to make annoying posts that would make Nazis look bad.
(37:50):
When challenged to name any white activist who could vouch
for him, Curtis snapped back that he was friends with
David Duke. As two thousand and eight were on, his
posts grew increasingly paranoid and hostile. He wasn't just accusing
Bill White of being secretly Jewish, working for the government,
or both. He was starting to accuse other users on
(38:14):
the forums who was spiraling, And for as much as
everyone on the forum hated Bill White, they were starting
to turn on Curtis Maynard too. And then in September
two thousand and eight, Bill White made another accusation. They'd
(38:34):
been making things up about each other for nearly a
year at that point, but this time Bill had found
out something true, something damning in their circles. Curtis Maynard's
wife was Latina. That meant he was guilty of one
(38:55):
of the gravest sins in the white nationalist community. He
was a race mixer. He had mixed race children. A
few days later, Maynard posted on his own blog that
he was going to log off for a few months,
ending the brief message with another shot at Bill White,
(39:17):
writing quote.
Speaker 2 (39:20):
As a parting message to my friends and readers, I'd
just like to say thanks for supporting this blog as
you have, and that Bill White of the ANSWP is
a Jew and an agent of the ADL and SPLC.
Don't trust him, and for God's sake, tell everyone you
know that he is not a national socialist.
Speaker 1 (39:44):
And then he logged off. I suspect even if he
wasn't posting, though he still saw the news when Bill
White was arrested by the FEDS a few days later.
He was charged with making threats against the foreman of
the jury that convicted white supremacist leader Mat Pale. But
it didn't matter anymore. Even with Bill White offline and
(40:06):
behind bars, everyone in the movement already knew the truth
about Curtis Maynard, and they reviled him.
Speaker 3 (40:15):
For it.
Speaker 1 (40:30):
In December, his wife, Melissa, filed for divorce. I don't
think it was about this specifically, not really. I'm sure
there was a lot going on at home. It wasn't
just this online drama that drove them apart. I don't
think he was a great husband and father, to be honest.
He was home getting mad online while his wife supported
(40:51):
their family as an engineer, And given his history of
drug and alcohol abuse, it's hard not to imagine that
his sobriety is in question at this point. And if
he blamed Melissa, or just the color of her skin
for his loss of status in the movement, he may
have been taking out his anger on her. The divorce
(41:14):
moved quickly, and she was granted full custody of their
two daughters after he admitted in court that he'd once
left the baby home alone. In two thousand and nine,
he turned his anger toward his own divorce attorney, accusing
him of being a Mexican supremacist and working against his
own client in the case out of loyalty to his
(41:36):
own race, and he started more blogs. He started a
new site for his Holocaust denial blogging, but it failed
to attract the same level of interest as his writing
had in the past. In the past, he could count
on visitors to his site seeing his content cross posted
on bigger platforms like his friend David Duke's website on
(42:00):
Vanguard News. But now there was no more free promo
from big name white nationalists, only long threads on the
forums making fun of him. A new account popped up
on the forum, posting in his defense. Other users quickly
determined that it was Maynard himself and bullied him off
(42:20):
the website again. He never admitted that was his account,
but in this limited instance, I have to say I
agree with the Nazi forum moderators on this one. The
writing style was very similar to Maynard's and he made
more blogs. He made several single issue blogs focused on
(42:43):
things like attacking his ex wife and attacking his divorce attorney.
One of those blogs is entirely gone from the Internet.
I can't even find a ghost of a page, and
that's probably for the best, because all of the references
to that blog indicate that it was dedicated to revenge
(43:05):
porn nude photographs of his ex wife that he'd taken
during their marriage and posted online after the divorce to
humiliate her. And now that he was banned from Stormfront
and Vanguard News, he redirected his forum posting energy into
a site called the Ron Paul Liberty Forest RP fan
(43:30):
two thousand and eight was definitely Curtis Maynard. He registered
on the site just a few days after the blow
up with Bill White in December of two thousand and seven,
and he posted three thousand times, including one thread complaining
about how Google was returning too few hits if he
searched for Curtis Maynard. His last thread on the Ron
(43:54):
Paul forum started on January twenty sixth, twenty ten, three
months before Curtis made or died. He titled it my
conspiracy riddled, hate filled, weird stupid Goodbye, And all of
the modifiers in that title are in scare quotes for
(44:15):
some reason, and he did spell weird wrong. The post
is confusing, it's very long. It seems like he'd become
disillusioned with the Ron Paul Revolution and he was growing
concerned that Paul's libertarian policy on drug legalization would lead
(44:36):
to widespread degeneracy in the destruction of society. He rambles
for a bit in the middle about the evils of
pornography and usury. There are inexplicable variations in font sizes
and sentences that sort of trail off without concluding, and
then in very small font at the bottom of the post,
(45:00):
he wrote, I think RP Fan two thousand and eight
must decease from the forums. He later edited the post
to add a YouTube link called The Eternal Jew. The
link is dead, so it could have been something else,
but I assume it was the nineteen forty Nazi propaganda film.
(45:26):
Much of his Internet footprint from this time period is gone.
Blogs wiped out for terms of service violations before anyone
archived them, links that go nowhere, comments referring to forum
posts on websites that haven't existed in over a decade.
But people on both sides of the issue, both white
(45:47):
nationalists and anti racist activists, saw Curtis Maynard's downward spiral.
He was unwell in May of two thousand and nine,
a year before he died, A white nationalist podcast host
made a passing reference to Maynard's history of accusing his
enemies of being secretly Jewish. The co host of the
(46:10):
show sort of processed the name for a moment and
then recalled that oh, Yeah, that's the guy that's been
really racist online, and then it came out that he
had a Latino wife and mixed race children. Adding that quote,
he seems a bit unstable to me. Plus he calls
all his old friends at VNN Jews. Now, I wouldn't
(46:33):
be surprised if he and his ex wife end up
in a murder suicide type deal. Around that same time period,
about a year before the murder suicide, a poster on
an anti racist message board made the same terrible prediction, writing,
I wouldn't be surprised if Maynard loses it and decides
(46:55):
to go on a spree and harms a bunch of
innocent people. Don't know how much you've followed about the guy,
but he's a nurse, which means there are people of
all races in a vulnerable position under this mentally ill
person's care for medications, food, ivs. That's the part that
bothers me the most, And it's that piecet why I've
sort of kept an eye on the guy. What if
(47:18):
this guy decides the Jews or the reason why his
wife won her freedom and successfully was able to save
herself and her kids. That post ends with a question
are his wife and children at risk? The sight has
long since crumbled to dust. The post is preserved only
(47:41):
as a quote with a dead link on a defunct blog.
So I don't know who it was that saw this coming,
but I know it must weigh heavily on their heart.
I don't think there was anything they could have done, though,
who could they call the police? The police wouldn't have
been her, he hadn't broken the law. By the time
(48:05):
Curtis Maynard did anything the police would have seen as
reason to intervene, it was already over. And I won't
tell that part of the story again, and don't want to.
It's in the last episode, digging through hundreds of pages
of old forum posts and finding a twenty year old
(48:27):
c Span video of Richard Spencer trying to make Ron
Paul laugh. Those things are fun for me. I live
for that shit. The bloody end, though, with a young
mother lying dead in her own front yard, that isn't
where I want to dwell. Curtis Maynard murdered Melissa Masa
(48:50):
on April twenty first, twenty ten. He died by suicide
not long after his stepdaughter survived being shot in the
face and his two younger daughters were able to escape
the house without being physically harmed. At the time of
(49:11):
the murder, Curtis Maynard had very recently remarried. Just two
months before he died, he married his third wife, and
when he died, she was pregnant with their child. When
the news hit the Nazi forums, reactions buried some die
(49:33):
hard conspiracy theorists jump right into their comfort zone, writing
things like I doubt the validity of the story's facts
and think perhaps he was suicided, and Alex Jones's competitors
always seemed to die in mysterious events involving guns. Sounds
like a setup to me. But those commenters were in
(49:55):
the minority. For people who knew Curtis Maynard online, for
those who'd followed his writing, there was some sorrow, but
very little shock. One longtime reader wrote, I really think
that he struggled to maintain perspective and demonstrated more than
a little barely controlled anger. It's unsurprising to me that
(50:19):
he met a violent end. Another said, I regret not
having attempted to contact him via email. The signs of
meltdown were there all along, but who expects something like this?
The posters on VNN, the site he was bullied off
(50:39):
of at least twice, had nobody for him. One of
the site's moderators wrote, God forgive me for repeating it.
Guess I won't have to ban him anymore for calling
everyone a jew. He's banned from life, one less race
mixer and batshit insane white national as to made us
all look bad. At least he took his Mexican ex
(51:02):
wife with him. Many of the posts celebrated his death,
as well as his ex wife's. Posters who feuded with
him in the past, gloated about getting the last laugh,
and some hoped that more mixed race relationships would end
like this one. As is often the case. When Nazi's
(51:25):
Monday Morning quarterback a murder, many posters had notes writing
things like what a stupid fucker. He could have redeemed
himself by giving his life taking out an influential member
of the anti white elite. That would have brought him
fame and respect instead of laughter and ridicule. Over on Stormfront,
(51:46):
where he hadn't posted since two thousand and seven, the
posts seemed a little more I don't want to say thoughtful.
That's not the right word. I guess my perspective is
pretty warped. At this point. No one is posting thoughtfully
on storm. I think I was just surprised that anyone
there still had the capacity to consider something like this tragic,
(52:08):
because even users who had no problem with the man
murdering his ex wife thought it was just a little
over the line to shoot the stepdaughter. One user posted
he went off the deep end when he started writing
about the fake moon landings. I'm afraid he lost all
ability to distinguish between lies and truth. I sent him
(52:29):
an email when he started on about the moon landings
and tried to rein him back in, but he wanted
no part of it. His response to me was quite extreme,
and since I didn't know him personally, there wasn't much
else I could do. The forums lit up for a
few days, but then they moved on. Curtis Maynard wasn't
(52:52):
really missed in the places. He spent years posting furiously
trying to make a name for himself. Every now and again,
someone remembers him. In twenty eighteen, eight Chan users were
discussing the strange phenomenon of white supremacists with non white
wives and someone who knew the deep lore posted there
(53:16):
was a famous case of a guy on vn N
called Melker who posed as a tough Nazi and was
meanwhile a house husband with a hispatic wife taking care
of their daughter. Usually you learn of these things after
the murder suicide. A fellow Holocaust and ire he'd been
toured in the early two thousands mentioned him fondly on
(53:40):
the eleventh anniversary of his death, offering a sentimental reflection
about his dead friend. The post was buried deep in
the comment section of a conspiracy theory video posted by
an anti Semite in Idaho who has been asked by
the Russian Orthodox Church to stop pretending to be a monk.
(54:02):
It's a fitting place, i guess, for the last remaining
fond memory of a man whose rise and fall barely
ever existed outside the comments section on racist blogs. Weird
Little Guys is a prorection of Kolzo Media and iHeartRadio.
(54:23):
It's research, written and recorded by me Holly Conger. Our
executive producers are Sophielectterman and Robert Evans. The show has
edited by the wildly talented Rory Gagan. The theme music
is composed by Brad Dickert. You can email me at
Weird Little Guys podcast at gmail dot com. I will
definitely read it, but I probably won't answer. It's nothing personal.
You can exchange conspiracy theories about the show with other
(54:44):
listeners on the Weird Little Guys subreddit. If you're listening
to this the week it came out, you still have
time to submit a question over there for an upcoming
Q and a episode, but as always, just don't post
anything that's going to make you one of my Weird
Little Guys
Cool Zone Media. In December of two thousand and seven,
a neo Nazi named Bill White was very angry and
very online. That wasn't out of character for him. His
habit of lashing out that anyone he disagreed with would
(00:23):
eventually land him in federal prison. He threatened and timidated, docked,
and harassed people for years, members of the jury that
convicted white supremacist leader Matt Hale, a prosecutor handling a
case against members of a white supremacist militia, and Florida
tenants who sued him for housing discrimination, and his own
(00:45):
ex wife. He was a menace on the Nazi message boards,
and just before Christmas in two thousand and seven, he
got into a fight with a former friend that would
send that man into a deadly downward spiral. I'm Molly Conger,
(01:06):
and this is the lost episode of Weird Little Guys.
(01:27):
For all the side stories, digressions, tangents, and the months
this episode has been lost, this has always been a
story about Curtis Maynard, the Holocaust denial blogger who murdered
his ex wife and then died by suicide in twenty ten.
But if I'm being entirely honest with you, it's really
(01:51):
only barely about Curtis Maynard. His story, told on its
own is pretty short, and you already know it. It
was in part one. He was a Holocaust denier who
hoped to make a career as a white supremacist writer.
He had a short rise to minor fame in his
horrible little corner of the Internet, and then a sudden
(02:13):
fall from grace. He spiraled after his second divorce, and
he shot himself in the head while fleeing from the
police after murdering the mother of his children. I'm not
interested in a straightforward true crime narrative about an act
of domestic violence. In the story about Curtis Baynard, that
(02:36):
I think is more interesting. He's only a bit player.
The stories playing out all around him in the last
few years of his life are full of weird little guys,
guys like Bill White. William Alexander White is not a
(03:01):
man I'm quite ready to explain. Even still, his role
in this story makes him unavoidable, and I will write
about him eventually, because he's a man I've spent years
thinking about and hundreds of hours reading, mostly by way
(03:22):
of his voluminous vexatious court filings from federal prison. He'll
have his day on the show, I promise, But until
then he is going to keep popping up in a
lot of other people's stories. He's almost always there. You
might even remember him from a brief aside in an
(03:43):
episode that aired last November, the episode about Ethan Melzer,
the US Army soldier who leaked classified troop movements to
what he thought was Al Qaeda, but it turned out
to be a mentally ill Canadian teenager. In that episode,
I was talking about the ideological shift within the neo
Nazi group Adam Woffin, as some of its members gravitated
(04:06):
towards the magical satanism of the Order of Nine Angles.
And it wasn't until several members of Adam Woffin ended
up in court that it was revealed that Joshua Caleb
Sutter had been working for the FBI for a decade
and as a dedicated reader of Bill White's lawsuits against
the government. I know that Bill had been saying that
(04:29):
for years. I mean, Bill has a lot of theories
about who might be an informant, but you can't deny
he was right about Sutter. Bill White is a Nazi.
That much is probably obvious by now, but he's also
(04:49):
kind of a drama queen. Before he became a jail
house lawyer, he was an incessant blogger, and in all
his years in the movement, he was never not a problem.
He was stirring up shit in a way that can
only be described as pathological, and that might be because
(05:13):
it was normally. I think it would be unfair to
speculate about someone's mental health based on what they're writing
in their blog. But in Bill's case, I have some
proof because for some reason, he once filed a complete
copy of his own psyche vow as an exhibit in
(05:36):
a court case. So I can tell you that several
prison psychiatrists and court appointed forensic psychologists have diagnosed Bill
White with narcissistic personality disorder. That's a term that's seen
a lot of abuse and popular online discourse, reducing it
(05:58):
to a meaningless epithet her that someone who's behaving badly,
But it is a real clinical diagnosis, albeit a controversial one,
and it's a term with an actual meaning. Drawing directly
from one of his evaluations, the doctor wrote the essential
(06:18):
features of narcissistic personality disorder are a pervasive pattern of grandiosity,
need for admiration, and lack of empathy that begins in
early adulthood and is present in a variety of contexts.
Histrionic traits include a propensity for needing to be the
center of attention, while antisocial traits refer to engaging in
(06:39):
activities that run counter to mainstream social norms. Now, I
want to be clear, I'm not saying that everyone with
a personality disorder is a bad person. Having a personality
disorder doesn't make you a Nazi, it doesn't make you
a criminal. It just so happens that Bill White has
(07:01):
a personality disorder and he is a Nazi and a criminal.
They don't always go together. This is a difficult condition
to live with. There's no cure, and the nature of
the condition often means that those living with it don't
feel like they need treatment. But there are people who
(07:21):
manage to live relatively normal lives with the support of
things like dialectical behavior therapy. So my intention is not
to slander everyone living with a personality disorder, but I
do think the diagnosis sheds some light on Bill White's behavior.
He needs to be right. He needs to be the
(07:46):
center of attention. He'll do almost anything to get that attention,
positive or negative, it barely matters, and any perceived slight
against him all the justification He needs to go absolutely
nuclear in response. The white power movement is full of
(08:11):
men who attack their enemies, and there are plenty of
them in the movement going after each other. There are
power struggles, ideological disagreements, and just plain friction between guys
with poor social skills. None of that is that unusual.
But even in that milieu, Bill White stands out because
(08:35):
Bill White had beef with everybody, and it was Bill
White and his insatiable need for attention that drew Curtis
Maynard into an online argument in December of two thousand
and seven. It was Bill White's irresistible urge to lash
out at anyone who crossed him that ended up ruining
(08:58):
Curtis Maynard's reputation among the racists who read his Holocaust
denile blog. On December nineteenth, two thousand and seven, Bill
White made a pretty big claim. He logged onto Vanguard
News Network, a neo Nazi forum, and started a thread
with the title ron Paul lies about lack of involvement
(09:22):
with white nationalists, the Post read comrades. I have kept
quiet about the Ron Paul campaign for a while because
I didn't see any need to say anything that would
cause any trouble. However, reading the latest release from his
campaign spokesman, I am compelled to tell the truth about
Ron Paul's extensive involvement in white nationalism. Both Congressman Paul
(09:47):
and his aides regularly meet with members of the Stormfront,
set American Renaissance, the Institute for Historic Review, and others
at the Tara Tai restaurant in Arlington, Virginia on Wednesdays.
This is part of a dinner that was originally organized
by Pat Buchanan, Sam Francis, and Joe so Braun and
has since been mostly taken over by the Council of
(10:09):
Conservative Citizens. I have attended these dinners, seen Paul and
his aides there, and been invited to his offices in
Washington to discuss policy. For his spokesman to call white
racialism small ideology and claim white activists are wasting their
money trying to influence Paul is ridiculous. Paul is a
(10:32):
white nationalist of the Stormfront type who has always kept
his racial views and his views about world Judaism quiet
because of his political position. I don't know that it
is necessarily good for Paul to expose this. However, he
really is someone with extensive ties to white nationalism, and
for him to deny that in the belief he will
(10:52):
be more respectable by denying it is outrageous. And I
hate seeing people in the press who denounce racialism because
they think it is not fashionable. Bill White, Commander American
National Socialist Workers Party, Now, is that true? The short
(11:14):
answer is legally no. I won't say that this Nazi
is telling the truth. Is it possible? Kind of yeah?
Probably not, not exactly, not down to the details, but
maybe a little yeah. But we'll get to that almost instantly,
(11:43):
I mean, with a curious quickness. Conservative blogger Charles Foster
Johnson picked up the story and he got a post
up on his blog Little Green Footballs within hours of
Bill posting this on the Nazi Forum and Johnson dug up.
But looked like pretty damning receipts. Ron Paul's campaign finance
(12:06):
reports filed with the Federal Election Commission do show that
someone used campaign funds at a restaurant called Tara Tie
in Arlington eleven times in two thousand and seven, spending
about forty dollars once a month or so. Now, there's
no proving anything here. This was too many years ago,
(12:28):
and no one who could still tell the truth about
this has any incentive to do so. But I can
tell you what I think happened here. Bill White made
up a pretty convincing story that has some elements of truth,
but he messed up some of the details. The white
(12:50):
nationalists dinner meetings he's talking about were real, but he
got the name of the restaurant wrong. Until his death
in two thousand and five, white supremacist writer Sam Francis
did host monthly yet togethers at a Thai restaurant in
northern Virginia, but that restaurant was called Sala Tie, not
(13:13):
Tara Tai. It just so happens that Tara Tai was
about a quarter a mile away from Ron Paul's campaign
headquarters in two thousand and seven, So far from being
a smoking gun that proves Ron Paul was going to
a monthly Nazi dinner party, It just looks like that
was the preferred takeout destination for someone on the campaign staff.
(13:37):
But in two thousand and seven, those white nationalist dinners
at Sala Tie were still going on, organized by a
longtime Council of Conservative Citizens member named Peter Gemma. Gemma
responded to White's allegation, writing.
Speaker 2 (13:56):
I read those dinners. Rob Paul was never there, nor
did we run some sort of neo Nazi meeting. We
had academics and activists of national repute. The audience were
people who work at government, businessmed and grassroots types too.
Bill White ever came to the meetings. He didn't use
his real name. He doesn't even get the name of
the restaurant correctly.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
I don't think anybody's telling the whole truth here. Jemma
claims he never saw Ron Paul or Bill White, and
that might be true. But he also claims the dinners
weren't Nazi meetups, and that's not true. He was at
the time the media relations director for a nonprofit called
(14:41):
the National Policy Institute. Yes, that National Policy Institute, the
same one that would later appoint Richard Spencer as chairman,
and Peter Jemma had more than a few ties to
the movement. He was quite publicly associated with this kind
of stuff, at least as far back as two thousand
(15:02):
and four, when he gave a speech at the annual
Holocaust Denial conference held by the Institute for Historic Review.
In two thousand and five, the Washington Post ran a
story about him hosting a book signing for David Irving,
but for some reason, it took until twenty eighteen for
the Republican Party Committee in Sarasota County, Florida to vote
(15:25):
to remove him from their executive committee. He passed away
in January of twenty twenty five, and his obituary mentions
his work as a staffer for Ronald Reagan and says
he wrote articles for many publications, but the obituary does
not mention that many of those publications were explicitly white
(15:45):
supremacist outlets like Occidental Quarterly and v Dair. But on
the subject of these dinners, we have a lot of
claims from a lot of men who aren't telling the truth.
Bill White is claiming he saw ron Paul attend. Were
definitely real. I mean, the dinners were real. It's just
(16:08):
a question of who was there. We know they were
attended by the intellectual giants of the white supremacist world,
such that those exist as well as white supremacists with
connections to more mainstream conservative politics. Peter Jemma himself was
a senior staff member of Pat Buchanan's two thousand election campaign,
(16:32):
and he probably met Bill White back then. White claims
that he led the petition drive for Buchanan's candidacy in Maryland. Sure,
Bill White's a liar, But a photo taken by a
Washington Post photographer in March of two thousand shows Bill
White standing right behind Pat Buchanan at a campaign event
(16:53):
in Bethesda. But the question at hand is still, did
Ron Paul ever attend those dinners? I don't know.
Speaker 3 (17:06):
When.
Speaker 1 (17:06):
Virginia Heffernan, writing for the New York Times, picked up
the story from the blogisphere. The Ron Paul campaign quickly
issued a denial, and The New York Times pulled the
story and issued a correction. The campaign flatly denied that
Ron Paul had ever attended such a dinner or met
Bill White, although they did admit that Norm Singleton, ron
(17:31):
Paul's legislative director, had met Bill White quote at a
dinner gathering of conservatives several years ago, after which Singleton
expressed his indignation that the views espoused by White to
the organizer of the dinner. So it seems like the
nugget of truth in Bill's post as that he did
(17:55):
meet a man who worked for Ron Paul at one
of those Nazi dinners, but it was a few years ago,
so he didn't quite get the name of the restaurant right,
And the timing tells us something about Bill White's decision
to make this story up too. December nineteenth, two thousand
(18:15):
and seven, was the exact same day that the Ron
Paul campaign issued a statement that they would not be
returning a five hundred dollars campaign donation made by Don Black,
the webmaster of the Naziside Stormfront. Don Black was a
vocal supporter of the Paul campaign, as were many Stormfront posters,
(18:41):
and Don Black boasted on Stormfront that dozens of his
members were active campaign volunteers and donors. A photo had
recently surfaced of Ron Paul and Don Black at a
campaign event in Fort Lauderdale in September. Actually, if you
look at Don Black's Wikipedia page right now, the photo
(19:02):
of his face on that page is actually cropped from
this picture. So if you go to Don Black's Wikipedia page,
there's a picture and it's just Don Black's face. But
know that if you zoom out, Ron Paul is right there.
By December, there were calls for Ron Paul to return
(19:23):
these Nazi campaign donations, and it's obvious that this is
the story Bill White is responding to. He quotes directly
from the campaign press release that had been issued just
a few hours earlier, with a Paul campaign aid saying quote,
if someone with small ideologies happens to contribute money to
(19:43):
Ron thinking he can influence Ron in any way, he's
wasted his money. End quote. But Ron Paul himself refused
to disavow the support of what nationalists, saying quote, if
they want to endorse me, they're endorsing what I do
or say. It has nothing to do with endorsing what
(20:04):
they say. I think the best explanation is that Ron
Paul hurt Bill White's feelings. That small Ideology's comment clearly
got under his skin. He echoed it in his post.
He felt disrespected. If Nazee money is good enough for
(20:29):
Ron Paul, why does Ron Paul think he's too good
for Nazis? So he lashed out. Ron Paul hurt him,
and he wanted to hurt Ron Paul. Right back, and
he was media savvy enough to understand that Paul was
particularly vulnerable at that moment when it came to stories
(20:49):
about his associations with white supremacists. So my best guess
here is that the claim he's making is not technically
entire true. I don't think it's likely that Bill White
ever sat at a dinner table with Ron Paul at
a meetup organized by the Council of Conservative Citizens at
(21:11):
a Thai restaurant in Arlington, Virginia. I don't think every
single one of those details was ever true. At the
same time, I do think it's almost certainly true that
Bill White met Ron Paul's legislative director Norm Singleton at
one of those Nazi dinners back in two thousand and two.
That seems to align with the campaign's owned admissions. There
(21:35):
are things in the story that are definitely true. Paul
campaign's staff did have dinner with white supremacists. Ron Paul
did take money from Nazis. Nazis did volunteer for the campaign.
Ron Paul did speak at events organized by white supremacists.
(21:56):
And then there are elements that could be true. Things
you can't prove or disprove, but sound possible. Did Ron
Paul campaign staff attend other dinners? Did Paul himself ever
meet privately with any of the men from those dinners?
We don't know. Bill White invented a story that has
(22:19):
a loose lineage that trace us back to some kind
of truth.
Speaker 2 (22:25):
Right.
Speaker 1 (22:25):
He made up a story based in some snippets of truth,
and he crafted this story to capitalize on the headline
news of the day to soothe his own ego. He
didn't care what happened to Ron Paul. He didn't care
about anything other than creating a shit storm that he
(22:46):
could be in the middle of. But honestly, he didn't
actually need to make things up if he wanted to
remind everyone that Ron Paul was palling around with white Soprists.
(23:16):
Just two months before Bill White made that post, back
in October of two thousand and seven, Ron Paul had
in fact been the guest of honor at a different
restaurant at an event hosted by Nazis. And there's no
doubt this time about whether or not Ron Paul accepted
(23:36):
the invitation, because, in addition to the two hundred sum
people packed into the Boulevard Wood Grill in Arlington, Virginia.
There were cameras. A c SPAN camera crew captured the entire.
Speaker 4 (23:50):
Event before we began. I'd like to thank there are
other members of the executive board, Dan McCarthy and Kevin
Deanna and Marcus Epstein who actually founded the club just
around a year and a half ago, and their Tyler's
efforts are invaluable. Thank you.
Speaker 1 (24:11):
Do you recognize that voice? I think some of you might.
Maybe you're normal and that fifteen second clip didn't make
you almost drop your phone in surprise as you demanded
to know. Is that Richard Spencer? Because it is. That's
Richard Bertrand. Spencer, best known for such highlights as getting
(24:34):
punched in the face on camera at Trump's first inauguration
or having a screeching meltdown at an Airbnb because he
didn't get to give his speech at the Unite the
Right rally in Charlottesville in twenty seventeen, ten years before
he helped plan the Nazi rally that killed Heather Higher,
he had just dropped out of a PhD program at
(24:54):
Duke University to pursue his career in racism full time.
He was living in Arlington and working as the assistant
editor at the American Conservative magazine. The event Ron Paul
was speaking at that night was put on by a
group called the Robert A. Taft Club, founded a year
earlier by Richard Spencer, Kevin Deanna and Marcus Epstein. Epstein
(25:19):
described the club as a forum for lively debate about
the important issues that divide the right. And while Richard
Spencer's name is probably the only one of those three
that sounds familiar to you, Kevin Deanna and Marcus Epstein
were and are deeply entrenched in white supremacist circles. Kevin
(25:42):
Dianna and Marcus Epstein met in college at William and Mary,
where they both wrote for and edited these school's right
leaning student newspaper, The Remnant. Both men were named as
defendants when the paper was sued for defamation in two
thousand and six. The paper had been putting up flyers
all over campus naming a female student who had recently
(26:05):
accused another student of rape. In their articles defending this practice,
which they justified by accusing women of lying about being raped,
they brought up what they felt was a similar case,
charges against a fraternity brother that had been dropped in
two thousand and four. The editors of the Remnant didn't
(26:27):
seem at all troubled by complicated truths like the fact
that the victim had been a sixteen year old high
school girl, or that the fraternity brother accused of raping, sodomizing,
and penetrating her with an object admitted to getting the
miner drunk to have sex with her. He was ultimately
(26:48):
convicted only of two counts of contributing to the delinquency
of a minor. The paper called that teenage girl a
wannabe victim, a con artist, a liar, and a fraud.
The lawsuit was settled out of court just a few
weeks before this event with Ron Paul. After graduation, Kevin
(27:12):
Deanna and Marcus Epstein founded a group called Youth for
Western Civilization and started establishing chapters of this white supremacist
student group on college campuses future where Little Guy's subject,
Matthew Heinbach would later serve as president of the chapter
of Youth for Western Civilization at Tawson University in Maryland,
(27:34):
and Kevin Deanna, under the pseudonym Gregory Hood still writes
for American Renaissance, the white nationalist outlet that holds annual
race science conferences. Just a few months before this event
with Ron Paul, Marcus Epstein was stumbling home drunk one
night when he saw a black woman minding her own business.
Unable to control himself, apparently, he screamed the N word
(27:57):
at her and then charged at her and, according to
multiple news reports about this incident, tried to karate chop her.
He would eventually plead guilty to assaults, but his boss,
Congressman Tom Tancredo, didn't think the incident was serious enough
to fire him, and Pat Buchanan's sister, Babe Buchanan, told
(28:21):
reporters that the incident was out of character for Marcus
and chalked it up to some problems in his personal life.
So in the fall of two thousand and seven, Ron
Paul was photographed with his arm around Stormfront webmaster Don Black,
and he got a standing ovation after an introduction from
(28:42):
Richard Spencer and an event organized by a guy who'd
recently assaulted a woman he didn't know just because she
was black. Bill White didn't need to make things up
if he wanted to draw attention to Ron Paul's cozy
relationship with men who were outlaw interracial marriage or whatever.
(29:04):
But Bill White loves to start drama, so he logged
onto that Nazi message board and he started posting. The
response was intense. There were four hundred and forty one
replies to his original thread. Most of the posters on
Vanguard News seemed to have been ardent Ron Paul supporters,
(29:28):
so they were frustrated with Bill for hurting Ron Paul's campaign.
But beyond that, opinions varied. Some users felt very confident that,
of course Ron Paul was really one of them, but
they understood that it would be political suicide for him
to admit it. Others felt that Ron Paul wasn't quite
(29:51):
aligned with them in that way, but they agreed with
him about a lot of other issues, and his campaign
events were a great recruitment pool for the movement. One
user posted, I know a lot of white supremacists involved
in the Ron Paul campaign. I wish he wouldn't shun
away his true supporters. Another said Bill's revelation wasn't even news.
(30:15):
Everybody in DC knows about Ron Paul's white nationalist connections.
Former Klansmen and National Alliance organizer Ron Dogget weighed in,
saying he'd been to those dinners plenty of times, and
he never saw Ron Paul. Mostly people were pissed off
at Bill. One poster wrote, You're just a goddamn loose
(30:38):
cannon who wants to be in the limelight and you
don't care what you have to do to get there.
Why do you pack up your shit and leave and
try to incriminate and poison the well against someone other
than Ron Paul? Another politely chimed in, writing, while I
find this information interesting and intriguing, I have to join
the chorus here and asking how the fuck do this
(31:00):
help Ron Paul? In white nationalism? Todd van Bieber, a
man whose faces badly scarred from the time he nearly
blew himself up trying to build bombs. He planned to
set off at Disney World to distract the police while
Nazi's Rob Banks to fund a race war was exasperated.
He posted asking Bill if this grand standing was more
(31:21):
important than ending the Federal Reserve. James Leshkevich, posting as
Yankee Jim, seemed to be having a good time watching
the drama unfold. Every dozen posts or so, there's Yankee
Jim making some wise crack, posting laughing emojis, and comments
like you sure do know how to get attention. Bill
(31:43):
The poster known as Yankee Chim, died two months later.
He hanged himself in his garage after beating his wife
to death. Curtis Maynard, an active forum poster and rabbid
Ron Paul supporters, the thread later that night, and he
made the one hundred and forty second post in the thread.
Speaker 2 (32:08):
Sounds like bullshit to me. I will say that RP
isn't afraid of talking with those holding an alternative view,
but it seems a little far fetched that he'd be
knowingly meeting with and shaking the hands of Bill White
and any stormfronters. I'm calling total bullshit for now.
Speaker 1 (32:26):
And then Curtis Maynard jumped into action to defend Ron
Paul's honor. He fired off a blog post accusing Bill
White of secretly working for Massade. That's right. The most
logical explanation he could come up with was that Bill
White wasn't a real Nazi at all, but he was
(32:48):
a Jewish agent provocateur trying to prevent Nazis from getting
Ron Paul elected president. In Curtis Maynard's opinion, that picture
of Ron Paul with Don black Well that's obviously fake.
Everybody knows Don Black is fat and that man looks thin.
Maynard frantically scoured the internet for proof that Bill White
(33:11):
was wrong, and he posted links to news coverage he
felt refuted those claims. After a couple of posts like that,
another user warned him, writing, don't egg him on. If
you're not careful, he'll out every one he knows of.
(33:31):
This is how William works. Curtis's post was the last
word in that thread. On Christmas Eve, he wrote, if
the elections were held today and the Jews weren't able
to manipulate the tally, Ron Paul would receive the majority
of the vote of both parties. Anyone telling you any
(33:52):
differently is either stupid, delusional, or complicit. In another thread,
someone linked to Curtis's blog post accusing Bill White of
being a Jewish agent. Now that thread, that one got
out of hand, devolving into an argument between April Gade
and Alicia Strome. Those aren't really names you need to
(34:16):
know for this story, but if you are an avid listener,
you have heard them before. Alicia you might remember as
the second wife of Nazi pedophile Kevin Alfred Strone from
the very first episode of the show. April Gade is
the mother of the twin girls who made up the
short lived white power music duo Brush and Blue, and
(34:40):
in the thread, Alicia shamed April for parading her daughters
around in Hitler T shirts to make money, and April
reminded Alicia that she said nothing about her ex husband
using pictures of the twins for sexual gratification. It really
went off the rails. But the strangest part is how
(35:01):
the conversation ended. Curtis chimed in. Replying to a picture
of April Gade's daughters in those Hitler T shirts.
Speaker 3 (35:10):
He wrote, quote, is it wrong of me to take
my six month old daughter and use women's makeup to
paint a beautiful Hitler mustache on her upper lip?
Speaker 2 (35:22):
She's so cute, looks just like baby Hitler. She has
those brown locks sweeping across her forehead and everything.
Speaker 1 (35:33):
The site was on fire for days, multiple threads, hundreds
of posts. Scores of users were mad at Bill White.
They were yelling at him, making fun of him, calling
him names, digging up old allegations and coming up with
new ones. And maybe he tried to ruin some of
them too. I don't know, but I know he couldn't
(35:59):
forgive Curtis. In January two thousand and eight, Curtis Maynard
was needling Bill White. He was still outraged at the
damaged Bill had done to Ron Paul, and he wasn't
going to let it go. He created a fake website
for White's organization, the ANSWP, and declared himself the chairman
(36:22):
of it. He wrote open letters to Bill White on
his blog and on the forums, trying to goad him
into another fight. In March, he gleefully reported that there
had been a fire at one of Bill White's rental
properties in Virginia, and he accused White of hiring an
anti racist organization to set the fire in order to
(36:45):
bolster his reputation for being racist against his black tenants.
It's a very roundabout, complicated sort of theory. In the
early months of two thousand and eight, a supporter of
Bill's made posts on the forums calling for Curtis to
be banned from the site. So another user made a
(37:06):
pull one of them should be banned, but which one
Bill lost. People wanted Bill White banded from the forums
more than they wanted to ban Curtis Maynard and Bill
responded by complaining that well, Curtis actually broke the forum's
most important rule. Posters on Vanguard News Network are not
(37:30):
allowed to accuse other posters of being Jewish unless you
have proof. In May, Bill claimed that Curtis Maynard didn't
even exist and that the account was actually run by
a black gay man hired by the Southern Poverty Law
Center to make annoying posts that would make Nazis look bad.
(37:50):
When challenged to name any white activist who could vouch
for him, Curtis snapped back that he was friends with
David Duke. As two thousand and eight were on, his
posts grew increasingly paranoid and hostile. He wasn't just accusing
Bill White of being secretly Jewish, working for the government,
or both. He was starting to accuse other users on
(38:14):
the forums who was spiraling, And for as much as
everyone on the forum hated Bill White, they were starting
to turn on Curtis Maynard too. And then in September
two thousand and eight, Bill White made another accusation. They'd
(38:34):
been making things up about each other for nearly a
year at that point, but this time Bill had found
out something true, something damning in their circles. Curtis Maynard's
wife was Latina. That meant he was guilty of one
(38:55):
of the gravest sins in the white nationalist community. He
was a race mixer. He had mixed race children. A
few days later, Maynard posted on his own blog that
he was going to log off for a few months,
ending the brief message with another shot at Bill White,
(39:17):
writing quote.
Speaker 2 (39:20):
As a parting message to my friends and readers, I'd
just like to say thanks for supporting this blog as
you have, and that Bill White of the ANSWP is
a Jew and an agent of the ADL and SPLC.
Don't trust him, and for God's sake, tell everyone you
know that he is not a national socialist.
Speaker 1 (39:44):
And then he logged off. I suspect even if he
wasn't posting, though he still saw the news when Bill
White was arrested by the FEDS a few days later.
He was charged with making threats against the foreman of
the jury that convicted white supremacist leader Mat Pale. But
it didn't matter anymore. Even with Bill White offline and
(40:06):
behind bars, everyone in the movement already knew the truth
about Curtis Maynard, and they reviled him.
Speaker 3 (40:15):
For it.
Speaker 1 (40:30):
In December, his wife, Melissa, filed for divorce. I don't
think it was about this specifically, not really. I'm sure
there was a lot going on at home. It wasn't
just this online drama that drove them apart. I don't
think he was a great husband and father, to be honest.
He was home getting mad online while his wife supported
(40:51):
their family as an engineer, And given his history of
drug and alcohol abuse, it's hard not to imagine that
his sobriety is in question at this point. And if
he blamed Melissa, or just the color of her skin
for his loss of status in the movement, he may
have been taking out his anger on her. The divorce
(41:14):
moved quickly, and she was granted full custody of their
two daughters after he admitted in court that he'd once
left the baby home alone. In two thousand and nine,
he turned his anger toward his own divorce attorney, accusing
him of being a Mexican supremacist and working against his
own client in the case out of loyalty to his
(41:36):
own race, and he started more blogs. He started a
new site for his Holocaust denial blogging, but it failed
to attract the same level of interest as his writing
had in the past. In the past, he could count
on visitors to his site seeing his content cross posted
on bigger platforms like his friend David Duke's website on
(42:00):
Vanguard News. But now there was no more free promo
from big name white nationalists, only long threads on the
forums making fun of him. A new account popped up
on the forum, posting in his defense. Other users quickly
determined that it was Maynard himself and bullied him off
(42:20):
the website again. He never admitted that was his account,
but in this limited instance, I have to say I
agree with the Nazi forum moderators on this one. The
writing style was very similar to Maynard's and he made
more blogs. He made several single issue blogs focused on
(42:43):
things like attacking his ex wife and attacking his divorce attorney.
One of those blogs is entirely gone from the Internet.
I can't even find a ghost of a page, and
that's probably for the best, because all of the references
to that blog indicate that it was dedicated to revenge
(43:05):
porn nude photographs of his ex wife that he'd taken
during their marriage and posted online after the divorce to
humiliate her. And now that he was banned from Stormfront
and Vanguard News, he redirected his forum posting energy into
a site called the Ron Paul Liberty Forest RP fan
(43:30):
two thousand and eight was definitely Curtis Maynard. He registered
on the site just a few days after the blow
up with Bill White in December of two thousand and seven,
and he posted three thousand times, including one thread complaining
about how Google was returning too few hits if he
searched for Curtis Maynard. His last thread on the Ron
(43:54):
Paul forum started on January twenty sixth, twenty ten, three
months before Curtis made or died. He titled it my
conspiracy riddled, hate filled, weird stupid Goodbye, And all of
the modifiers in that title are in scare quotes for
(44:15):
some reason, and he did spell weird wrong. The post
is confusing, it's very long. It seems like he'd become
disillusioned with the Ron Paul Revolution and he was growing
concerned that Paul's libertarian policy on drug legalization would lead
(44:36):
to widespread degeneracy in the destruction of society. He rambles
for a bit in the middle about the evils of
pornography and usury. There are inexplicable variations in font sizes
and sentences that sort of trail off without concluding, and
then in very small font at the bottom of the post,
(45:00):
he wrote, I think RP Fan two thousand and eight
must decease from the forums. He later edited the post
to add a YouTube link called The Eternal Jew. The
link is dead, so it could have been something else,
but I assume it was the nineteen forty Nazi propaganda film.
(45:26):
Much of his Internet footprint from this time period is gone.
Blogs wiped out for terms of service violations before anyone
archived them, links that go nowhere, comments referring to forum
posts on websites that haven't existed in over a decade.
But people on both sides of the issue, both white
(45:47):
nationalists and anti racist activists, saw Curtis Maynard's downward spiral.
He was unwell in May of two thousand and nine,
a year before he died, A white nationalist podcast host
made a passing reference to Maynard's history of accusing his
enemies of being secretly Jewish. The co host of the
(46:10):
show sort of processed the name for a moment and
then recalled that oh, Yeah, that's the guy that's been
really racist online, and then it came out that he
had a Latino wife and mixed race children. Adding that quote,
he seems a bit unstable to me. Plus he calls
all his old friends at VNN Jews. Now, I wouldn't
(46:33):
be surprised if he and his ex wife end up
in a murder suicide type deal. Around that same time period,
about a year before the murder suicide, a poster on
an anti racist message board made the same terrible prediction, writing,
I wouldn't be surprised if Maynard loses it and decides
(46:55):
to go on a spree and harms a bunch of
innocent people. Don't know how much you've followed about the guy,
but he's a nurse, which means there are people of
all races in a vulnerable position under this mentally ill
person's care for medications, food, ivs. That's the part that
bothers me the most, And it's that piecet why I've
sort of kept an eye on the guy. What if
(47:18):
this guy decides the Jews or the reason why his
wife won her freedom and successfully was able to save
herself and her kids. That post ends with a question
are his wife and children at risk? The sight has
long since crumbled to dust. The post is preserved only
(47:41):
as a quote with a dead link on a defunct blog.
So I don't know who it was that saw this coming,
but I know it must weigh heavily on their heart.
I don't think there was anything they could have done, though,
who could they call the police? The police wouldn't have
been her, he hadn't broken the law. By the time
(48:05):
Curtis Maynard did anything the police would have seen as
reason to intervene, it was already over. And I won't
tell that part of the story again, and don't want to.
It's in the last episode, digging through hundreds of pages
of old forum posts and finding a twenty year old
(48:27):
c Span video of Richard Spencer trying to make Ron
Paul laugh. Those things are fun for me. I live
for that shit. The bloody end, though, with a young
mother lying dead in her own front yard, that isn't
where I want to dwell. Curtis Maynard murdered Melissa Masa
(48:50):
on April twenty first, twenty ten. He died by suicide
not long after his stepdaughter survived being shot in the
face and his two younger daughters were able to escape
the house without being physically harmed. At the time of
(49:11):
the murder, Curtis Maynard had very recently remarried. Just two
months before he died, he married his third wife, and
when he died, she was pregnant with their child. When
the news hit the Nazi forums, reactions buried some die
(49:33):
hard conspiracy theorists jump right into their comfort zone, writing
things like I doubt the validity of the story's facts
and think perhaps he was suicided, and Alex Jones's competitors
always seemed to die in mysterious events involving guns. Sounds
like a setup to me. But those commenters were in
(49:55):
the minority. For people who knew Curtis Maynard online, for
those who'd followed his writing, there was some sorrow, but
very little shock. One longtime reader wrote, I really think
that he struggled to maintain perspective and demonstrated more than
a little barely controlled anger. It's unsurprising to me that
(50:19):
he met a violent end. Another said, I regret not
having attempted to contact him via email. The signs of
meltdown were there all along, but who expects something like this?
The posters on VNN, the site he was bullied off
(50:39):
of at least twice, had nobody for him. One of
the site's moderators wrote, God forgive me for repeating it.
Guess I won't have to ban him anymore for calling
everyone a jew. He's banned from life, one less race
mixer and batshit insane white national as to made us
all look bad. At least he took his Mexican ex
(51:02):
wife with him. Many of the posts celebrated his death,
as well as his ex wife's. Posters who feuded with
him in the past, gloated about getting the last laugh,
and some hoped that more mixed race relationships would end
like this one. As is often the case. When Nazi's
(51:25):
Monday Morning quarterback a murder, many posters had notes writing
things like what a stupid fucker. He could have redeemed
himself by giving his life taking out an influential member
of the anti white elite. That would have brought him
fame and respect instead of laughter and ridicule. Over on Stormfront,
(51:46):
where he hadn't posted since two thousand and seven, the
posts seemed a little more I don't want to say thoughtful.
That's not the right word. I guess my perspective is
pretty warped. At this point. No one is posting thoughtfully
on storm. I think I was just surprised that anyone
there still had the capacity to consider something like this tragic,
(52:08):
because even users who had no problem with the man
murdering his ex wife thought it was just a little
over the line to shoot the stepdaughter. One user posted
he went off the deep end when he started writing
about the fake moon landings. I'm afraid he lost all
ability to distinguish between lies and truth. I sent him
(52:29):
an email when he started on about the moon landings
and tried to rein him back in, but he wanted
no part of it. His response to me was quite extreme,
and since I didn't know him personally, there wasn't much
else I could do. The forums lit up for a
few days, but then they moved on. Curtis Maynard wasn't
(52:52):
really missed in the places. He spent years posting furiously
trying to make a name for himself. Every now and again,
someone remembers him. In twenty eighteen, eight Chan users were
discussing the strange phenomenon of white supremacists with non white
wives and someone who knew the deep lore posted there
(53:16):
was a famous case of a guy on vn N
called Melker who posed as a tough Nazi and was
meanwhile a house husband with a hispatic wife taking care
of their daughter. Usually you learn of these things after
the murder suicide. A fellow Holocaust and ire he'd been
toured in the early two thousands mentioned him fondly on
(53:40):
the eleventh anniversary of his death, offering a sentimental reflection
about his dead friend. The post was buried deep in
the comment section of a conspiracy theory video posted by
an anti Semite in Idaho who has been asked by
the Russian Orthodox Church to stop pretending to be a monk.
(54:02):
It's a fitting place, i guess, for the last remaining
fond memory of a man whose rise and fall barely
ever existed outside the comments section on racist blogs. Weird
Little Guys is a prorection of Kolzo Media and iHeartRadio.
(54:23):
It's research, written and recorded by me Holly Conger. Our
executive producers are Sophielectterman and Robert Evans. The show has
edited by the wildly talented Rory Gagan. The theme music
is composed by Brad Dickert. You can email me at
Weird Little Guys podcast at gmail dot com. I will
definitely read it, but I probably won't answer. It's nothing personal.
You can exchange conspiracy theories about the show with other
(54:44):
listeners on the Weird Little Guys subreddit. If you're listening
to this the week it came out, you still have
time to submit a question over there for an upcoming
Q and a episode, but as always, just don't post
anything that's going to make you one of my Weird
Little Guys
Host
Molly Conger
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