Weirdhouse Cinema: Alucarda

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of iHeartRadio.

Speaker 2 (00:12):
Hey, welcome to Weird House Cinema. This is Rob.

Speaker 3 (00:15):
Lamb and this is Joe McCormick.

Speaker 2 (00:17):
And in today's episode of Weird House Cinema, we're going
to return once more to the wild world of Mexican
horror to consider a film and a filmmaker often celebrated
as one of its true greats. We'll be discussing the
nineteen seventy seven cult classic Alucarda, also known as Alucarda
The Daughter of Darkness, directed by Juan Lopez Montezuma. While

(00:39):
not well received by mainstream Mexican audiences at the time,
it has become an obvious cult classic, a midnight movie.
It's been championed by the likes of Germeal de Toro,
David J. Skahl, Michael Weldon, just to name a few.
This is one you poked around online and you can
see folks are constantly discovering and discovering Alokarda, and everyone

(01:03):
seems to be blown away by it when they encounter it.

Speaker 3 (01:05):
I think it's exactly the kind of film right for
this sort of rediscovery, and I don't know a late
positive reception because of the different textures that it gets into.
A part of it feels like an art film. You know,
it has some really interesting writing that's not writing and

(01:25):
performance that is, you know, not just going through the
standard horror tropes. But then there is also a lot
of just standard horror exploitation content, and the way they
blend together is unusual and interesting. It's almost an intellectual film.
But then it's also just a you know, frenzied getting

(01:46):
naked with the devil kind of thing.

Speaker 2 (01:48):
Yeah, yeah, this film is it's a lot of things,
as we'll discuss. There's definitely a strong European gothic horror
element to it, though to be clear, it is set
and filmed in Mexico, and then there's also a strong
avant garde surrealist element to it, and all of these
things kind of mixed together. As the name suggests, Alocardo,

(02:12):
which spelled backwards, is a Dracula.

Speaker 3 (02:15):
This is certainly it is not just the Dracula.

Speaker 2 (02:19):
Dracula yeah or yeah, or you know, it's the feminine
version of Alocarde, I guess. But yeah, so it's certainly
a vampire film, or at least a film with a
vampire in it. But it's also a lesbian love story.
It's a smoldering criticism of organized religion and just a
delirious fever dream of blasphemous horror.

Speaker 3 (02:39):
Certainly, blasphemous is an interesting lesbian love story. Is I
wonder about the criticism of organized religion that is one
of the weirdest themes realized in the film. Because we
were sort of talking about this off mic, I would
say the middle stretch of the movie is strongly anti clerical,

(03:01):
and it sets up the Catholic authorities, the priests and
the and some of the nuns as almost the villains
of the movie. They're depicted as cruel and sadistic and
superstitious in these scenes with self flagellation and the torture
of Justine. But then there's a very strange turn where
essentially all of these these mad clerics that are being

(03:23):
set up as the villains in the middle of the
movie are vindicated and proven right well to a certain extent,
to a certain extent, and uh, then it's kind of like, wait, what,
Like the character who the doctor character who comes in
to criticize what they're doing to these to these poor girls,
is ultimately like humbled for his naive view of like

(03:45):
not believing that the Devil is real and will turn
nuns into zombies.

Speaker 2 (03:50):
Well, this will be interesting to discuss. I would I
would argue that the clerical of side of things, that
they're never redeemed in this picture. I think I think
they're they're essentially villains throughout, but I don't.

Speaker 3 (04:02):
Know there's there.

Speaker 2 (04:03):
This is a great thing about this film is there's
a lot of room for discussion and interpretation.

Speaker 3 (04:07):
I don't know if the main claricy I mean's certainly
like fatherless arro and stuff. I don't know if they're
ever made to look nice in the end, but they
are sort of proven right, like their worldview was the
correct one in the end.

Speaker 2 (04:18):
To a certain extent. Well, well we'll get we'll get
back to this. But I think one way to think
about the film is to certainly compare it to Ken
Russell's nineteen seventy one masterpiece of the Devils, which of
course starred Vanessa Redgrave and Oliver Reed. Like this film,
The Devils is often sometimes thrown under the broad subgenre

(04:41):
categorization of nonsploitation cinema, which it's a big tin nonsploitation.
I mean it's a small tin in some ways, but
a big ten in others. So others so called nonsploitation
films often center around explosions of sexuality, madness, and violence
in a convent setting, but in other cases the sleazier

(05:04):
exploitation elements are more upfront and center, and when none
exploitation is referenced, that's generally the sort of picture we
think of, right, you know, something a little more purely
scandalous without any kind of serious message wrapped up in
the offering.

Speaker 3 (05:21):
Yeah, I mean to the extent that there is a
serious message. I think these movies are usually concerned mostly
with sexual repression, and that they will feature a lot
of you know, habit ripping by the third ACD.

Speaker 4 (05:32):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (05:32):
Yeah, And The Devil's is certainly that sort of picture.
But in the Devils all of the conflict emerges from
this sexual repression. So we end up with you know,
mass hysteria, murder and madness and oppression, and sexual repression
is like the root cause of everything. Just to simplify
a great film. In this movie, however, as we've already

(05:56):
been alluding to, yes, there is sexual repression and just
general oppress from the Church. But we also come to
learn that, oh, yeah, the devil is apparently real. The God,
to some extent or another is also real. All these
supernatural forces are in play. And then, therefore, how does
that change our interpretation of madness and mass hysteria.

Speaker 3 (06:18):
Not just God and the devil, but pyrokinesis and yeah,
zombies and vampirism. Like a lot of stuff gets thrown
in at the end there.

Speaker 2 (06:28):
Yeah, And also the vision of God that we see
in this picture is at the very least a sterner God,
more of an Old Testament vengeance God, as opposed to
sort of like the benevolent grandfather power that is generally
more in play in some of your Gothic cars, where
it's like, oh, the power of God there is here

(06:50):
to serve as a massive battery for the crucifix that
you use to ward off the vampires. That's right.

Speaker 3 (06:56):
Yeah, the power of God in many of these other
stories is there too save the protagonists at the end,
to help and to save here. To the extent that
God's power is made manifest, it is I think only
a punishing power.

Speaker 4 (07:11):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (07:11):
If anything, it's like God is real, the devil is real.
These two forces are in opposition, and then humanity is
just ground to a pulp between these two opposing forces. Yeah,
and that may ultimately be the central message of the movie.
But again, this is a film that is going to
lend itself well to varying interpretations because it ultimately presents

(07:33):
kind of a kaleidoscope image of things, as we'll discuss.
All right. I don't have an elevator pitch for this one.
I don't know if you have something kindling there.

Speaker 3 (07:42):
Joe, Well, not one that easily works just as text.
But I am imagining a kind of quick cut in
a trailer that I would put together for this film,
and it would be a Lukarta saying the line, do
you know how small creatures love each other? I'll show you,
and then it just cuts to everything being on fire.

Speaker 2 (08:02):
That's good, that's good. All right. Well, let's go ahead
and listen to just a little bit of the trailer
audio for this picture, not the full trailer, I think,
and uh, and this is I believe going to be
the Spanish language trailer, as we'll discuss, though this movie
was filmed in English and then then dubbed into Spanish.

(08:23):
Alka Got the Father Command, Stee, Got the Son Command Stee,
God the Holy Ghost Command.

Speaker 4 (08:31):
Stee, Susanna Kamini a d not French Motuma.

Speaker 2 (09:11):
All right, Well, if you would like to watch Alokarta
before proceeding with this episode or rewatch it, well, there
are at least a couple of main ways to view it.
I initially watched it on the Mondo Macabro DVD, which
has been out for a while now. They recently put
out another one of Montezuma's films, The Mention of Madness

(09:31):
on Blu Ray, But as far as I know, and
I was checking in a little bit throughout the year,
there's no word on Alokarta also getting the Blu Ray
treatment anytime soon, but obviously there's hope that that would
come to pass. The DVD is really solid though, film
quality is perfectly fine, and it features some nice extras
and as of this recording, you can also stream Alocarda

(09:53):
via the excellent Criterion channel. It's currently featured as part
of their ten film Nunsploit playlist, which includes some other
great films, including The Devils and So. As I was
rewatching parts of the film while working on notes, I
rewatched it on Criterion Channel and the film quality is
the same as on the DVD.

Speaker 3 (10:13):
I also watched it on the Criterion Channel stream. That
was a good upload, I will say. So, you said
you've got the Mondo Macabro DVD.

Speaker 2 (10:22):
Yes, or I rented it from Video Drum here in Atlanta.

Speaker 3 (10:24):
I see, I've got one. I haven't watched yet, but
I've got a nunsploitation blu ray from Mondo Micabre for
a different film called Satanico Pandemonium.

Speaker 2 (10:36):
Oh, that's another one. That's another title you frequently see
in discussion of nunsploitation. But I have not seen it myself.

Speaker 3 (10:43):
I haven't seen it yet, so I can't vouch for
it either way. But yeah, that's by the same producer,
so I think they may have put out a number
of kind of wild nun films.

Speaker 2 (10:55):
It's great to see Criterion Collection and Mondo Macabre coming together.
That's the same films. It's not always the case. All right, Well,
let's go ahead and jump into a discussion of the
folks involved in this picture, starting at the top with

(11:17):
Juan Lopez Montezuma, the director. He also has story and
screenplay credit producer and I'm not sure which one he is,
but he also has a bit role as a monk
in this one of the sort of hinchman monks that
run around fetching things, tying people up. That's sort of
you know, typical nonspolitation monk business.

Speaker 3 (11:34):
Those guys are supposed to be monks, the guys in
the black robes with the hoods.

Speaker 2 (11:38):
I think, so, yeah, that's so.

Speaker 3 (11:40):
Weird because they nothing about them seems like they're of
a religious order. They are hinchmen, as you said, they're
used to. They're like the mechanics of the film, you know,
they're they're the ones who have to like lift things
and carry them around or tie somebody up.

Speaker 2 (11:54):
Yeah, I would say that, as is often the case,
this movie's probably not good as primary search for how
monasteries and convents work. It has a lot to say
about Catholicism, but it is not a good primary source
for information on Catholicism. Montezuma lived nineteen thirty one through
nineteen ninety five. Mexican actor, producer, writer, TV and radio personality,

(12:18):
and director, best known for a trio of nineteen seventies
horror films that really challenged just what a Mexican horror
film could be. He'd worked as an actor previously, mostly
on the stage, but also started a long running Mexico
city radio program called Panorama di jazz. I don't think
he stayed on it long, but he started it and

(12:39):
it apparently lasted for a very long time, kind of
an institution. He also served as a I couldn't find
any clips of this, but he was apparently a sort
of horror host on TV as well.

Speaker 3 (12:50):
Oh cool.

Speaker 2 (12:51):
He would present I think it was like a late
night thing and he would present old silent horror movies.
And there's an extra on the Mondo disc where I
think there it's an interview with Guillermo del Toro from
I want to say, like two thousand and two or something,
a good bit younger. But he reflects on this. He
reflects fondly on watching Montezuma on this television program, presenting

(13:12):
movies like Nosferatu. So Mantezuma became involved in avant garde
Mexican theater. After this, he became a collaborator with the
legendary Alejandro Jodorowski, serving as producer on his nineteen sixty
eight film Fando and Liss, as well as his famous
nineteen seventy metaphysical Western el Copo, and then he set

(13:33):
out to make his own horror films, which certainly stand
as fine examples of Mexican horror, but they were also
Montezuma's rebellion against mainstream film and established horror cinema in
Mexico as well. He was not a fan of traditional
Mexican horror cinema, stating in one interview quote, the Mexican
tradition for such films is very simplistic and very conformist.

(13:57):
In my opinion, in spite of their surface delirium. I
don't really like them very much.

Speaker 3 (14:02):
What surface delirium?

Speaker 2 (14:05):
Yeah, I found this really interesting, and I guess with
as with most like broad statements like this, you can
certainly point to counter examples from Mexican horror cinema and say, well,
you know, this is not mere surface delirium. Maybe goes
a bit deeper, but I get what he's saying. Like
if you look at, say a, you look at an

(14:26):
El Santo monster movie, and yes, there are these delirious
elements on the surface of things, but the basic structure
is going to be generally formulaic. There's nothing subversive there
there's no surprise in the outcome. And so what he
clearly sets out to do in his films is Montezuma,
that is to create a true depth of delirium, so

(14:47):
madness from bottom.

Speaker 3 (14:48):
To top, not shallow depravity, but deep depravity. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
I guess I can see what he's saying that a
lot of these older Mexican horror films, while they might
have very weird sights and sounds or some strange things
going on, ultimately the story is going to be somewhat
predictable and its values are conventional.

Speaker 4 (15:11):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (15:11):
Yeah, I don't know if I agree with that, but
I understand what he's saying.

Speaker 2 (15:15):
Yeah, yeah, And again I think it's a criticism that
is going to apply to certain films more than others.
But it does seem to be like a motivating principle
for him, And when you look at his films, you
can see like, yeah, this is a guy that's trying
to really make the weirdness and the madness go from
bottom to top. So I was reading about this movie

(15:36):
in Montezuma in general in a book by Doyle Green.
He's a film critic and writer. The book is the
Mexican cinema of darkness, and he also points out that
Mexican horror films, especially Luca horror films, are big on
telling rather than showing. I think we can think we

(15:57):
can reflect on various examples where like Santo was having
a discussion with a scientist and they lay out all
the details, and so Montazuma is the opposite. He would
rather show you.

Speaker 3 (16:07):
Yeah, well, I can see that in this film. Actually
this leans more on the other side. There's a lot
of stuff that it does not hold your hand. I
don't know what's going on in some parts, like I
really don't know why something happened sometimes or what it's
supposed to mean.

Speaker 2 (16:21):
Yeah, and when there is an explanation, like when Father
Lazaro describes what sort of demon he thinks they're dealing with,
it really has no impact on anything.

Speaker 4 (16:30):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (16:30):
Well that almost seemed like a parody. I've got that
line written down from later on, when he's like, oh, yeah,
it's a Type six devil or something like. It almost
seems like a parody of just the fussy taxonomy of
evil that the clerics are using here.

Speaker 4 (16:46):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (16:48):
So, given all of this, it should come as no
surprise that Montazuma generally worked outside of the mainstream Mexican
film industry, at least in terms of financing and control.
He still worked with notable professionals in Mexican filmmaking, and
it apparently fiercely retained his own creative control over his visions.
So his first film was nineteen seventy three's The Mansion

(17:08):
of Madness, released in the States and sometimes still referenced
listed in I Think in IMDb, and also sometimes streamable
under the title Doctor Tar's Torture Dungeon. It's based on
Edgar Allen Poe's The System of Doctor Tarr and Professor Feather,
and it tells the story of an asylum where the
system of soothing has been abandoned in favor of a

(17:30):
new system of well, let's say, a system of cruelty.
And we quickly come to realize that this is the
case where oh, the inmates are running the asylum now,
and they're led by someone going by the name anyway
of doctor Millard. And this individual is played in the
movie by Claudio Brooke, who will be talking about here
in a minute. This film is perhaps more of a

(17:52):
dark surrealist comedy than a pure horror picture, though it
does have gothic horror elements. I saw this a couple
of years ago rather liked it. And this film, as
with Alucarda, was shot in English.

Speaker 3 (18:05):
This might be a kind of strange comparison. But though
I haven't seen the movie, some of the clips I
have seen of Claudio Brooke in it, he a bit
reminds me of Graham Chapman from Money Python.

Speaker 2 (18:18):
Yeah. Yeah, there's a lot of absurdity in it because
he's you know, he ends up presenting himself initially as
maybe a revolutionary doctor who's running the asylum, and then
we quickly realized like, no, this was this was an
inmate of the asylum who's taken over. And so there's
a lot of toga wearing that ensues wild monologue's hysterical

(18:40):
laughter and so forth. And he does have blonde hair,
which certainly in that film, which adds to the.

Speaker 3 (18:47):
Experience kind of yeah, shaggy blonde hair. We'll get to
more about Claudio Brooke in a minute, I'm sure, but
I am impressed with the the range that he gets
to portray in Alucarda.

Speaker 2 (18:59):
Oh Yeah, this is yeah, as we'll discuss this is
the case where he had got to do a dual
role and clearly had a lot of fun with it.

Speaker 3 (19:05):
Yeah. Hard to imagine two different parts more different.

Speaker 4 (19:09):
Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (19:10):
So Mantazuma followed Mansion up with a Hollywood co production,
nineteen seventy five's Mary Mary, Bloody Mary. I haven't seen
this one, but it is a modern erotic vampire film
and also sort of a jallo film, starring Christina Ferrera
and featuring John Carodine in a small role. It was

(19:31):
also shot in English, and it's also said to be
quite good.

Speaker 3 (19:34):
You know my taste for jallo. I'm intrigued. I'll have
to give this a look up. And then came alocarda,
this is which we're talking about today. Montazum is best
remembered and most controversial film due to its comparatively racy
content and certainly it's blasphemous themes. It draws on both
avant garde cinema and European Gothic hor traditions, and I

(19:55):
would say just feels absolutely self assured in its vision.
We may ponder and head scratch over what that vision
ultimately is and what he's trying to say, but it
seems very confident in its delivery. After these three big pictures,
Montezuma's output was a bit more limited. He directed a
nineteen eighty three crime thriller title To Kill a Stranger,

(20:17):
which co starred Dean Stockwell and Donald Pleasants, and after
that his projects saw even smaller audiences. There's nineteen eighty
six as Welcome Maria and nineteen ninety four as The
Food of Fear, And at some point he wanted to
do a follow up to Alocarta titled Alokarta Rises from
the Tomb, but that never came to fruition before his
death in nineteen ninety five. As for other writers, let's see,

(20:40):
there's Alexis Antita Uroyo. These are the only screenplay credits
on the databases I was looking at. And then there's
also Yolanda Lopez Montezuma, also credited with a writer, also
with no other credits. I'm not sure if this is
a relative or not just a name without much additional contact.

(21:01):
And then it's also typically noted that this film is
to some degree based on the novel Carmilla by Sheridan Lefanieu,
who lived eighteen fourteenth through eighteen seventy three, Irish author
who wrote, Yeah, eighteen seventy two's gothic novella Carmilla, a
foundational vampire novel and one that explores a lesbian relationship

(21:22):
with I'm to understand some amount of nuance. I think
I started reading this book at this novella at some point,
set it down and didn't pick it back up.

Speaker 2 (21:32):
That's on me, not on the novella. But I can't
speak to it with much doubt because I haven't finished it.

Speaker 3 (21:38):
But this is worth noting, a vampire novel that pre
dates Dracula. Yes, absolutely, Yeah, so Dracula wasn't the first
wasn't even the first big one.

Speaker 2 (21:49):
Yeah. As we've discussed on the show before, Dracula as
a literary work is not as old as a lot
of people think it is, or may sort of casually
think of it as being. You know, we offer mate,
we just lumped Dracula in with Frankenstein, when in fact,
you know, Frankenstein is an older work.

Speaker 3 (22:06):
Yeah. One of the weird things we've talked about is
how Dracula was only a few decades old when Nosferatu
the movie was made. Yeah, you know, it's like adapting
a movie today from a novel published in the nineties.

Speaker 2 (22:21):
Yeah, crazy. All right, let's talk about the cast here.
I'm gonna as I've done recently, I'm going to stick
with the idea that if your character is the title
of the film, even if you don't have top billing,
we're going to talk about you first. And so that's
going to be the case here with Alokarda. She was
played by Tina Romero born nineteen forty nine.

Speaker 3 (22:44):
What a force of nature she is in this movie.
She is fantastic and she is so scary, bringing lead,
heavy intensity in the eyes. She has this this just
burning stare where you feel like she could she could
literally set you on fire with her eyes, and turns
out she can't.

Speaker 2 (23:03):
Yeah, yeah, there is, Yeah, she's able to. It's just
such a great performance, and she's able to channel this
feeling that Yeah, I mean, to a certain extent, it
is like she is a saint, or the inverse of
a saint. You know, she has access to different information
about reality. Truth is shining through her, and at times

(23:25):
that truth may be like gentle and reassuring and innocent.
Other times it may be shocking and horrifying and more
than you can take. And so yeah, I mean, you
really have to see it, of course to really understand
everything we're talking about here. But but yeah, she's She's
not like just a pure like evil character. It's not like, oh,

(23:48):
it's like if you think this is a demonic possession film,
and to a certain extent it is. This is not
a character that is possessed by a demon and is
snarling and cussing and so forth exorcist style the whole time.

Speaker 3 (23:59):
Yeah. You know another thing I was mentioning to you
off Mike that I think is really interesting about this performance.
I think Tina Romero was something like twenty six twenty
seven when she made this film, But she really manages
to pull off a particular type of scary energy, which
is like a terrifying, unhinged teenager energy. She's not just

(24:24):
able to create a scary presence with her facial expressions
and all that, but she she is scary in a
particular way, in the way that like teenagers or young
people can be scary to old people. Do you know
what I'm talking about?

Speaker 2 (24:40):
Oh, yeah, I know what you're talking about. Yeah, my
child is thirteen now, so and all their friends are
like twelve or thirteen or fourteen. So yeah, I totally
get this.

Speaker 3 (24:53):
Five.

Speaker 2 (24:55):
Who are these creatures?

Speaker 3 (24:57):
Yeah, beyond just the direct threat of you know, satanic
magic being invoked and you know, to burn your body
or something, there is also just this generational mysteriousness.

Speaker 4 (25:08):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (25:09):
Yeah, So we'll have a lot to say about Tina
Romero's performance. It's a dual role as well. She also
plays Alakarta's mother in the beginning, and she's just terrific throughout. Now.
The love interest for Alucarta is the character Justine, played
by Susanna Kamini. I wasn't able to find any data
on this actress's age, when she was born and so forth,

(25:32):
but she was in all three of Montezuma's nineteen seventies
horror films, as well as To Kill a Stranger. She
was active through at least eighty six or perhaps two
thousand and seven, depending on which movie database you're looking at,
And it's difficult to compare her performance to Romero's because
Alokarta is, you know, the title character and is such

(25:52):
an intense character. But Justine, who is based here to
at least to a certain extent, on Dussad's Justine, is
an intentionally more subdued character. So you know, you can't.
It's apples and oranges to a certain extent. But I
think Comeni does a fine job and she gets to
shine in a different way during the final act.

Speaker 3 (26:12):
Yeah, that's right. The character of Justine is more passive
in being pulled along by the magic of Elakarda.

Speaker 2 (26:20):
Yeah, all right, let's come back to Claudio Brook then.
Claudio Brook also has a dual role, a delightfully dual
role in this picture, playing both the rational doctor Ozak
and a romani hunchback who also may be a satyr
and may also be an agent of the devil or
the devil himself. It's unknown.

Speaker 3 (26:43):
Maybe. I mean he is a goat man in his
hunchback form, he's just a goat. Yes, give him full
billy goat shaped beard. And yeah, does he have horns? Almost, well,
we don't really see. And there's hair, there's at least
hair going on the Yeah, there's a there's very curly hair.
So if there are horns, maybe they're underneath the curls.

(27:04):
The goat comparison in his human form is not subtle.

Speaker 2 (27:08):
No, this and is not a subtle performance. Yeah, for
fans of like mystery science theater, and weird films. This
is kind of like imagine if Torgo were played by
an award winning actor that has essentially classically trained and
highly regarded. Yeah, so yeah, we've talked about Claudio Brooke
at least in passing on the show before. Fantastic actor

(27:30):
of the Golden Age of Mexican cinema. He has a
small role in The Devil's Reign which we briefly talked about,
which we covered on the show before, and we briefly
talked about Claudio Brook but it's not a very big part.
But here, yeah, we get to see him just do
a whole lot more. Here he gets to play both
sides of the gothic horror coin, you know, the straight

(27:50):
laced protagonist and also an Asian of chaos. Again, Claudio
Brook really got to run wild in Montezuma's previous film,
The Mansion of Madness, and his other horror films horror
and or sci fi and certainly in some cases Luca
films included sixty two's Neutron, The Atomic Superman versus The
Death Robots, sixty three's Neutron versus Doctor Carante, sixty threes,

(28:15):
Santo in The Wax Museum. So yes, he did get
to lock up with Santo. I don't know if they
actually lock up, and I haven't seen this one yet,
but I'm excited to at some point. He's in nineteen
seventy eight's The Bees, and he's also in Guierramel del
Toro's Chronos from nineteen ninety two. In that film, Del
Toro fans might remember him, he plays the aging deter

(28:37):
di la Guardia, who is seeking the Kronos device in
order to prolong his life.

Speaker 3 (28:43):
He's the villain, not the protagonist.

Speaker 2 (28:45):
Yeah, he's the villain in that. He's his Hinchman slash.
I Believe's son is Ron Pearlman's character. So he's constantly
like brating him and hitting him with a cane and
like give me that Chronis device.

Speaker 3 (28:57):
Yeah, okay.

Speaker 2 (28:58):
So Del Toro a lot of praise on Claudio Brooke,
including in that I Believe Again two thousand and two
interview on the Mondo disc, here pointing out that he
had an almost mechanical perfection in his craft, something that
he compared to actors of the British school. Just a
solid professional. Outside of a smattering of horror and Luca films,

(29:20):
Claudier was a collaborator of the avant garde surrealist director
Luis Bounel, appearing in the sixty five film Simon of
the Desert and sixty two is the Exterminating Angel, and
I believe some others as well from that director. He
appeared in a variety of major Golden Age Mexican productions
as well as international productions like seventy six's Return of

(29:41):
a Man Called Horse, eighty nine's Romero, eighty nine's Licensed
to Kill, nineteen nineties Revenge that's a Tony Scott film,
and nineteen ninety one's One Man's War. Also, like I say,
this is a guy who had some big roles. He
played Jesus Christ in at least one Mexican reduction, like
I think it was a TV mini series that sort

(30:02):
of thing, so a major name in Mexico. And also
he had a you know, there's certainly a fair amount
of international prestige as well.

Speaker 3 (30:10):
Wait, was the License to Kill he was in? That
was the James Bond movie.

Speaker 2 (30:13):
Yeah, yeah, he was in License to Kill well, which
I have not seen in so long. I don't know
who he plays. I imagine it's a relatively minor supporting character,
but I yeah, I don't remember him in that.

Speaker 3 (30:24):
That's the James Bond revenge movie where he's not really
on an official mission, but he's on a revenge quest
against I think it's Robert Dove playing a drug kingpin
who feeds Felix lighter to a shark.

Speaker 2 (30:37):
Yes, yes, this is the one. The main thing I
remember is is what Anthony Zerba is in that as well.
Oh yeah, and gets blown up and an air compressor
or something, which is a pretty horrific scene at the time.
Benicio del Toro is in that film as well, and
I don't remember him at all.

Speaker 3 (30:54):
He's one of the villain's main hinchmen. He gets gruesomely
thrown into a grinder that's like chopping up bricks of cocaine.

Speaker 2 (31:03):
Oh man. Yeah, it's been so long since I saw that,
probably a little too young, and I haven't seen it
since because it's a I remember being pretty gritty.

Speaker 3 (31:11):
Yeah, it's been a while, but I think gritty is
the right word. It is famously a kind of nastier,
more down to earth James Bond than a lot of
other films of that period.

Speaker 2 (31:22):
Oh and I also mentioned that the character Doctor Olazak
has a daughter named Danelia, and this character is played
by actress Lily Garza, who would go on to be
an Aerial Award winning TV director. All Right, let's get
into some of the more supporting characters here. We also
have the character of Father Lazaro, who we've already mentioned
a little bit, played by David Silva, who lived nineteen

(31:44):
seventeen through nineteen seventy six, a one time Aeriel Award
winner for nineteen forty seven's Champion without a Crown. And
speaking of the era, whereas I think I neglected to
mention earlier that Tina Romero also was at least nominated
I'm Sorry for award for nineteen eighty one's The Great Waters.
The Aerie Awards are essentially like the Oscars of Mexican cinema,

(32:09):
So anyway, David Silva won the award in nineteen forty seven,
and it was nominated three more times, including for his
role as the Colonel in nineteen seventy two's al Topo.
I do not remember I've seen al Topo. It's been
so many years. I don't remember his character.

Speaker 3 (32:25):
Yeah, I don't either, but he.

Speaker 2 (32:27):
Was an opera singer and actor with some you know,
shows up in a number of different bits of weird cinema.
He's in the Mansion of Madness. He's in Jo Roowski's
Holy Mountain from seventy three. He was in nineteen sixty
two's The Brainiac, which we previously discussed on the show.

Speaker 3 (32:43):
I think of who is he.

Speaker 2 (32:46):
He's one of the inspectors. I don't know if he
wears a flamethrower or not. He one of the less
notable characters, or at least in my viewing. And he's
also in nineteen sixty eight's The Batwoman, which we have
not covered on the show yet but I think is
maybe kind of inevitable.

Speaker 3 (33:02):
Yeah, we'll end up there sooner or later.

Speaker 2 (33:05):
Now I don't know for certain, but I have heavily
suspect that while Claudio Brooke and Tina Romero are delivering
all of their English language lines themselves, Silva feels like
he might have been dubbed here, Like his voice feels
very voice overy here. You know, it's like Lupita no.

Speaker 3 (33:23):
Exactly, kind yeah, strong, Yeah, that is what it feels
like to me.

Speaker 2 (33:29):
Also, yeah, well, his physical performance, which is still great,
is you know, he's more of a sweating, self hating
lump of religious zeal And. I don't know, I just
I could be completely wrong on this. I'm not familiar
enough with his work, but it feels like maybe he's dubbed.

Speaker 3 (33:45):
In English here. I love how they don't really set
us up for the first flagellation scene. You just don't
know that that's coming. And suddenly this guy and all
the nuns are like with their habits and tunics pulled
down and just whipping themselves are being whipped.

Speaker 2 (34:01):
Yeah, and not in a way that feels like it's
supposed to be sexy.

Speaker 3 (34:05):
No, no, no, none at all. No, it's like it's
gross and pathetic.

Speaker 2 (34:11):
Yeah, let's talk about some of the other members of
the cloth here and what bloodstained cloth it is. In
this picture, we have Sister Angelica, who is ultimately in
many ways, the more relatable member of the convent here
and the nicest of the nuns. Yes, the nicest of
the nuns. She's played by Tina French. Couldn't find any

(34:35):
information about her birthday. Her other credits include nineteen sixty
eight s Fando and Liss and nineteen ninety eight's Angel
of Light. As of twenty twenty two, she was still
active as an actress. But she has some really great
scenes in.

Speaker 3 (34:51):
This Yeah, really great one where she as a she's
like a preying nun and she begins levitating sweating blood
and she delivers a lethal curse via prayer.

Speaker 2 (35:01):
Yes, pretty amazing. It's an awesome sequence. Now there's also
Mother Superior played by Brigita Segeriskag. This is her only credit,
so I couldn't find anything about this individual. Then we
also have Sister Jermana, who I don't remember what Sister
Jermana really gets into. She's I think involved in some

(35:23):
dialogue scenes back and forth, and then she has a
particular fate that we'll discuss. But she is played by
Adriana Roel, who of nineteen thirty four through twenty twenty two.
We previously mentioned her because she played the werewolf's sister
in nineteen sixty five La Loba Ah okay, Yeah, and
she herself was an Aeriel Award winning actress for nineteen

(35:46):
seventy nine's Anna Cursa, and she also was in twenty
fourteens She doesn't want to sleep alone. And then finally,
the composer for this film was Anthony Gooffen. I wasn't
able to find information about when he was born his
dates either. This was his first credited score, but he'd
follow up Alocarda with nineteen eighty two's Deadly Eyes, which,

(36:10):
weirdly enough, is a Canadian killer rat movie produced by
Hong Kong's Golden Harvest.

Speaker 3 (36:16):
That's going on the list.

Speaker 2 (36:19):
And he also did the score for Larry Cohen's The
Stuff in nineteen eighty five, which weird film fans are
probably rather familiar with, and his credits in lesser known
films continue through about twenty twelve. The score here, I
think it has some nice electronic weirdness and of course
a lot of given the religious themes, you've got to

(36:39):
have some electric organ in there, and so we have
a lot of that going on.

Speaker 3 (36:42):
Yeah, solid soundscapes throughout.

Speaker 2 (36:44):
Yeah, and of course numerous other professionals, as is always
the case, made this film possible. You know, the look
of it is pretty intense and incredible, and that ranges
from the costumes to the weird sets to the terrifying
man on fire stunts that you find throughout the last

(37:05):
act of the picture.

Speaker 3 (37:06):
Yeah, all right, well, is it time to talk about
the plot let's do. It begins with the prologue, of course,
where we see the birth of our title character, or
not see the birth, we see the aftermath of the birth.

Speaker 2 (37:25):
That's right, and this is a great sequence that really
sets the tone in many ways. Alakarta is born in
a crypt that has all the trappings of a manger.
It's a strange set already, You're just full of cobwebs, straw,
green vines, ruined statues. So is this a place of
death or birth or both? And then eventually we're gonna

(37:48):
see baby Alakarta taken away by I don't know, an
old Romani woman based on what we see later, or
is this supposed to be a witch some sort of
supernatural emissary Really hard to say at this point. And
she's sending the child away to keep him from getting
her And at first we might think, well him, who

(38:10):
is she afraid of? Is it you know it is
some sort of terrestrial force or no, is it something supernatural?
And if it is supernatural, is Alocarda threatened by the devil?
Or is Alacarta threatened by the Christian God?

Speaker 3 (38:25):
Good question? This is a cold open, by the way,
This is like no credits or anything. He's just opened
straight up on this setting that is, as you mentioned,
weird in a number of ways. Like one thing is
it seems to be maybe underground. It's certainly enclosed, but
it's also overgrown on the inside with all these green plants.

(38:46):
It's a little unnatural. Do you notice the contrasting statues
all around, So like it's a mix of cultural symbols.
Some things look like they could be consistent with Catholic tradition,
Like I think maybe we see something that could be
Virgin Mary statues. But then the camera wheels over to
this statue up in the head of the room, which

(39:08):
looks to me like the Great God Pan. It's like
a youthful, shirtless male figure on top with what looks
like goat legs or something on the bottom. Hard to
say for sure. And then so the figure delivering the baby,
I thought was a man made to look like really
fairal looking, it is a figure wearing a pelt of

(39:29):
furs with straw just fully woven into his hair.

Speaker 2 (39:34):
Yeah, I was part of me was wondering if this
is Claudio Brook once again. Yeah, like the general body
form of the character would match Claudio Brook, you know,
sort of tall and slim. But I couldn't find a
good answer on this and could not positively id him
in this role either.

Speaker 4 (39:51):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (39:52):
Also, this is not the movie's fault, but I just
had to note an association a Lukarta's mother here is
wearing what looks like a green velvet with this white
neck ruffle. And I'm sorry, but I couldn't help but
be reminded of the wardrobe from the classic mid two
thousand's Starburst commercial the berries and cream guy. I'm a
little lad who loves berries and cream. She's dressed like

(40:13):
that guy.

Speaker 2 (40:15):
I was not familiar with this at all. I had
to look it up. Yeah, apparently this character is called
little Lad and was played by a dancer and actor
Jack Ferver.

Speaker 3 (40:24):
Anyway, in the scene, Alukarta's mother says, poor little creature.
I won't be able to see Alukarta grow, but she
must survive. Take her to the convent. Please promise me
that you will protect her and don't let him take
her away. That's what you were talking about?

Speaker 2 (40:40):
Him?

Speaker 3 (40:40):
Who is him? And then the merit the person there,
swears and takes the baby away, and then there is
some kind of magical confrontation Alukarta's mother still like, by
the way, she's in not just a regular like we said,
she was in straw, but not just straw on the
floor in like a sunken pit in the middle of

(41:03):
the room, on a bed of straw, and she faces
up to look at the statue at the head of
the room, which whether it's you know, the god Pan
or something else. And then we hear otherworldly sounds, the
fluttering of bat wings, a dry, rasping groan, and then

(41:23):
she braces herself against the straw bed and she grimaces
like she's getting prepared for a psychic battle. Her eyes
grow wide. She screams, and then credits.

Speaker 2 (41:34):
Yeah, and that dry, raspy grown We're gonna hear that
time and time again throughout the movie. Is this the
presence sounds kind of like a like a zombie sound almost.
Is it the presence of the infernal? Or is this,
perversely like the presence of the divine? Uncertain?

Speaker 3 (41:49):
It reminds me of the rasping of the witch in Suspirit.

Speaker 2 (41:53):
Yes, yes, good connection. Yeah, that's what it was reminding
me of as well. All right, so from here we
fast far fifteen years into the future. The year is
I believe eighteen fifty and we have a new character, Justine,
and she is arriving at a convent in Mexico following
her pet parents' death.

Speaker 3 (42:10):
That's right, And there are a mix of feelings I
would say generated by this scene. The visual environment of
the convent is I think quite dingy and depressing. Justine
is brought by wagon on this bare mud road outside
and we can see the outer walls of the convent
in broad daylight, and they seem to be just infinitely

(42:32):
smudged with filth and neglect. And then all around the
outside of the convent there are just people standing around
apparently with nothing to do, as if they're like waiting
for something. It just feels bad. But then on the
other hand, the nun who welcomes Justine when she arrives,
I think this is Sister Angelica, is very kind and warm,

(42:54):
you know, she gives her a whole like, Justine, I'm
so glad you've arrived. We've been expecting you. There's nothing
to be afraid of. This is your home now. So
she's very kind and helpful. But then again there are
more unsettling elements, like the interior of the convent and
the way all the nuns are dressed. You had something
about that, didn't you.

Speaker 2 (43:13):
Oh yeah, I mean I think everybody who's ever watched
this movie has something about this, because, Yeah, the interiors
of the convent just straight up feel like a tomb.
In the best of cases, they feel like a nicely
like a tomb, or some somebody's at least open the window,
and in their worst well, well we'll get to that
in a minute. But then, yeah, the way the nuns
are dressed, if you're expecting or picturing in your mind

(43:35):
sort of traditional stereotypical nuns habits, that is not what's
going on here. They are dressed in alarming habits that
really resemble mummy rappings more than anything. And these rappings
are like stained in places with what We're not sure
exactly blood, it would seem, but also maybe perspiration, you know,

(43:56):
are they stained with lust, suffering, you know, from intense emotion?
Perhaps all of this. So the nuns themselves are presented
as if entombed alive in a place, in this place,
while their outfits betray their organic nature and their mortal longings.

Speaker 3 (44:13):
Yeah, the nuns are like bloody, muddy mummies.

Speaker 2 (44:18):
Yeah, strange, Yeah, there is a yeah, a foulness to
the way they're dressed.

Speaker 4 (44:25):
Ye.

Speaker 2 (44:26):
And and this is something, yeah that anytime you read
anything about a lakarda someone they always bring this up
because it is one of the most notable aspects of
it and one that you know, ultimately we were just
left to sort of puzzle and interpret.

Speaker 3 (44:37):
Okay, what the nuns look like is they look like
mummies who are dressed, dressed in wrappings like mummies, but
also with like a kind of you know, dress habit thing.
And they all work in a meat processing plant and
they haven't changed their bandages in a month.

Speaker 2 (44:53):
Yes, yeah, I guess. And as we'll see. You know,
part of it may be that they they routinely have
to whip themselves for their mortal longings, and you know
that's going to stain through. It's hard to get that
out of your habits now.

Speaker 3 (45:07):
In this sequence we also meet a few other major
characters we mentioned Justine and sister Angelica. There's also the
mother Superior sister Jermana, and the doctor Osek and his daughter. Again.
Doctor Otsek is played by Claudio Brooke, so he is
there picking up his daughter Daniella, who is blind and

(45:28):
we learn that she has been spending some time at
the convent over the summer. I think they've been helping
teach her how to do some things, and now she's
returning home with her father. Sister Angelica shows Justine to
her room, which is a small cell with a single
window to the outside, and there are two beds, each

(45:49):
with a cross on the wall over the head of
the bed. Sister Angelica tells Justine to get some rest
and that if she ever feels troubled or needs help,
just call upon her and she'll be there. So Sister Angela,
because she's sweet. But there's another bed in the room.
So is Justine going to have her roommate? Oh, yes,
she is. When she's left alone, Justine spends a moment

(46:10):
looking at a locket containing photos of her mother and father,
and then while she's admiring the photos, a figure blurs
into focus from behind her. It is a young woman
dressed all in black, with pale skin and long dark hair.
This is Alukarda. She startles Justine and then introduces herself,

(46:33):
and there's something notable about the velocity of interaction with Alukarda,
like there's no timidness at the beginning, she just launches
into relationship with Justine so fast, like they briefly bond
over the fact that they're both orphans. But then Alucarda

(46:55):
suddenly says, I have something to show you. So she
runs to retrieve some thing from under her bed and
she pulls something out, says, these are things I never
show to anybody. They're secrets, and every day I find
a new secret. What is it? It's stuff, Like ali
Karta dumps out onto her bed a leather bag full
of stuff. It contains what looks like pebbles, pieces of

(47:19):
broken glass, flakes of metal, scraps of fabric, and just
other little bits of trash, and she explains that each
one of these objects is a secret. She says that
these objects come to her. She says, it comes to me,
and then she picks up one piece from this pile
and says, this, for instance, it means I like you.

(47:41):
And she puts the object in Justine's hand and then
closes Justine's fingers around it, and Justine smiles. Then Alukarta
says she'll show her another. So she holds out her
hand and she empties this like she uncorks a black
bottle and empties the black bottle onto her palm, and
it's something alive. It's full of little writhing caterpillars or

(48:03):
some other kind of insect.

Speaker 2 (48:05):
Yeah, they're not not played for horror here, No, no, no.

Speaker 3 (48:09):
She she pours them out on her hand and then
says this line that you identified, Rob. She says, do
you know how small creatures love each other? I'll show you.

Speaker 2 (48:19):
Yeah, I mean I love this line. And again it's
one of those where you just have to sort of
think about it and interpret it. But for me, anyway,
you know, this feels like like like like peak innocence
in this film. So we in this, in this one line,
we we sense Alocarta's enthusiasm, you know, for for the
secrets of nature and wondrous things that exist on the

(48:42):
small scale. And perhaps, you know, reading into this and
thinking about what's to come in this film, maybe those
they're on such a small scale that they avoid the
attention of a larger world, of the adult world and
also supernatural forces. Like maybe small things are allowed to
love each other because they are too small for the
devil or for God to care about them.

Speaker 3 (49:03):
Oh yeah, I like that reading I think that could
be what he's meant there. Yeah, the small things are
like they can they can avoid his gaze, you know,
they can that they can get away with just living
and loving as they want, as they want. Now, Alokarta says,
I'll show you. I'll take you to the garden, to
the woods. Everything is there, and she's just so intense,

(49:24):
so fast, and then suddenly we're we're out there in nature.
Alokarta and Justine are outside and Alocarta has picked up
a piece of moss and she's holding it up for
Justine to see, and on the moss are crawling two
bright red mites.

Speaker 2 (49:40):
Yeah, I guess these are clover mites. And I like
their inclusion here because anytime I've ever encountered these little
guys or some related species and in the wild anyway,
it always does feel like a little special minor miracle.

Speaker 3 (49:54):
Yeah, so bright, so red. Justine's very she's I think,
she says, I've never seen these before. They're so interesting.
And then Alucarda says, it's one more secret. One is
identical to the other, like an image in a mirror,
like you and me. Then suddenly Halakarta is like more
more and mores, let's find more secrets, and they start

(50:16):
to run around in the woods, laughing madly, wrestling and
tumbling in the grass, and it seems perhaps their relationship
is already something more than friendship.

Speaker 2 (50:26):
It's like moving so fast, right right, These two are
drawn to each other, and certainly Alokarta is drawn to Justine,
and now their trajectory cannot be stopped.

Speaker 3 (50:37):
Yeah, But their happiness is interrupted by the somber clang
of a funeral bell. They look down into the little
ravines slightly below them, and they see a procession of
figures in black carrying a coffin. It's a very creepy image,
by the way, in the way that it's framed, especially
because it's in broad daylight in this green lush is

(51:00):
full of undergrowth. But these figures clad totally in black.
I think you can't even see their faces, and they're
carrying this coffin. So it's beautifully framed and unsettling. And
Alucarda explains to Justine that this funeral is for another
girl at the convent who died by suicide, and they
say the nuns will bury her in unhallowed ground, and

(51:22):
there's something sad about that. Justine says that funerals frighten her,
but Alucarda does not seem afraid. She seems almost a
little bit defiant, maybe a little bit excited, and she says,
you have to die. Everyone has to die, but there
can be happiness beyond death. So Alucarda and Justine continue

(51:45):
running through the woods until they finally have an encounter
with the hunchback. This is the character also played by
Claudio Brooke, who's very goat like in appearance.

Speaker 2 (51:56):
Yeah, this is tremendous. It's such a contrast to the
other care very broad, jesturelike performance at times, lanky arms,
shuffling gait, speaking in an over the top accent, and
in multiple languages, goat like, facial hair, shaggy pants. Yeah,
the works.

Speaker 3 (52:16):
I mean, he should almost say at the beginning, I
am known by many names. Like he sort of pops
up out of nowhere and startles them while they're running
around in the woods. And yeah, he's very goat like.
He's got these things dangling off him, that jingle when
he walks. I like that detail. As you said, he
speaks many languages, including I caught pieces of French and

(52:38):
of German and perhaps other things too, and when they
first meet this guy, they have different reactions. Justine is
frightened by him and she wants to run away, but
al Lukarta is like, no, I like this guy, and
she returns his smile and she convinces Justine that they
should follow him. She says he won't harm us, and

(52:59):
as the going along, he advertises all kinds of services.
He tells them that he can let them know people's
secrets and he can sell them an amulet, which is
a charm against demons quote, which are running around these
running around like wolves in these woods. So I like
how it actually quite true to many different theologies and

(53:22):
religious traditions around the world. This is a demon offering
to protect them against demons.

Speaker 2 (53:27):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (53:28):
So they followed the hunchback to his camp, where they
meet other people from his group, including a woman who
reads Justine's palm and tells her fortune, or at least
she tries to. After one look, she says, I see nothing,
only shadows and darkness. And there's also some feuding between
the two different main people in the Romani group. Here,

(53:49):
the hunchback and the fortune teller insult each other's services.
Like the fortune teller says, he'll tell you only lies,
and the hunchback says the fortune teller, He's like, oh,
you know, what she sees in your palm is just
going to be her own dreams backwards, and the hunchback
tells Alucarda that he knows the secrets of alchemy and

(54:10):
he can transform dust into precious stones. And then he says,
either stones or souls, I couldn't tell which one, transform
those into never imagined dreams. Ooh, and he also offers
Alucarta a magic knife and gives this very cryptic speech.
It was kind of hard for me to understand what
this connects to in the film, but I like the

(54:32):
ambiguity there. He says, I see your dream clearly, your
past and future. You have come from the dew in
the forest, and there they will be waiting for you.

Speaker 2 (54:43):
Who is they?

Speaker 3 (54:44):
Strange creatures they are, and you must take care if
it obsesses the young lady, and I think it must.
Here I am, and here is my box of charms.
If the Ladyship wishes I shall make her free from
such a dream, then if the dream should come true,
I should be expecting her very cryptic, very yeah, I

(55:04):
mean very hard to paraphrase what he's actually saying there,
though at the same time it's almost like the subtextual
implications are very clear, and those are It's like he's
making her some kind of offer, but she's going to
owe him something in return. Now, Alukarta is shaken by this,

(55:24):
but by what unclear. So she and Justine run away
and they dash together through the forest until they come
to a ruined palace or castle of some kind, and
once again, Justine, this is a common kind of difference here.
Justine is frightened by this place and she wants to
go back home, but Alucarda is like, no, no, let's

(55:46):
go inside. She finds it beautiful and somehow very familiar,
as if she's been here before.

Speaker 2 (55:51):
Yeah, and the exterior here is so tremendous. It's like
a stone sculpturing, crusted edifice in disrepair, draped all over
with lengths of blood stained colored cloths, you know, almost
brown red, almost brown, you know. And inside, of course,
where you're gonna find dust, bones, cobwebs, ruins, and ultimately

(56:14):
the viewer will recognize the very crypt where Elocarda was born.

Speaker 3 (56:18):
Right, and this place is radioactive with magic. She says,
I can hear voices from the past. I feel as
if I've been here before. One can live eternally instead
of turning into a pile of dust? Are you afraid
of dying again? With Alokarta, these just the frantic, almost
kind of stream of consciousness feed the sudden subject changes

(56:40):
one sentence to another. They don't always seem to follow.
But she asked Justine, are you afraid of dying? And
Justine says, yes, everyone is. But Alucarda says, I mean
dying loving each other, dying together so we may live
as one forever, the same blood always flowing through our veins.
And then Alucarda caresses Justine's face and it turns more tender,

(57:03):
though it's a little it's a little bit threatening and
tender at the same time. Alucarda is so much, she says, Darling, Darling, Justine,
I live in you. Would you die for me? I
love you? So I've never been in love with anyone
and never shall and let's unless it's with you. And
Justine is I think she She reciprocates the feeling in

(57:24):
a way, but she's also overwhelmed and afraid, and Alucarda says,
the time is very near when you will love me
as much as I love you. You may think me
cruel and selfish, but love is always selfish. Don't you
know how jealous I am? You must love me to death. Wow,
it's great stuff. I mean, Justine is terrified, understandably, but

(57:45):
Alucarta is in a state of ecstasy, and she's sort
of floating around the room almost I mean not literally.
There will there will be some of that in a bit,
but she says she she remembers a time when she
was wounded and nearly died, and then she just pivots
right away from that. She says that Justine has to
swear a pact with her that if we ever depart

(58:06):
from this life, we shall do it together. And Justine agrees,
but with passive phrasing, she says, all right, if this
makes you happy, And then a Lukarta pulls out a knife,
the magic knife, to draw blood with. But then she
gets distracted and looks down at their feet and first says,
look look at this coffin, and they see the name
on the coffin. It is the name Lucy Wes westenra

(58:29):
I think it is always is it Westerna or Westinra,
whatever it is. That is the name of the character
Lucy from the novel Dracula. The you know, Mina's friend Lucy,
who is if you're not familiar with the story, she
is the first person in England who goes through this
gradual transformation into vampire thrall. You know, the Dracula visits

(58:51):
her on subsequent on, you know, a series of nights,
and she gradually dies and then turns into a vampire.
But this character Lucy, we don't get that in this
movie at all. Is the name is the only reference.
And so it's this coffin with Lucy Westenra written on it.
They say she died years ago, and Alukarta has the idea,
let's swear by her again. Justine is afraid, but Alucarta is.

(59:15):
She can't be stopped. She's like a bulldozer. She just
throws the coffin open and then they see this mold mummy, disgusting, sunken, flattened,
gray mask of rotten death. And the moment the coffin
is opened, it unleashes some kind of sonic attack. The otherworldly,

(59:37):
demonic rasping from the prologue comes back. Remember when Alukarta's
mother was laying on the pile of hay and there
was the rasping from the statue. Now we hear the
rasping again and it is affecting the characters. It seems
to be causing immense stabbing, psychic pain in Alucarda and Justine,

(59:57):
and they scream and they run away. Do you have
a do you have a take on all this stuff
that's just happened.

Speaker 2 (01:00:04):
I mean, I don't have I don't have what what
feels like a clear read on it. But I mean,
on one hand, it's like this they're occult bonding, got
a little out of hand, and they maybe bit off
a little more than they could chew. That's that's one interpretation.
And then once actually presented with death in the form
of this body, it is overwhelming or is it in

(01:00:26):
fact psychically spiritually overwhelming? And this is also brought on
by the various magical pacts that they are already dealing
with here, but it does it is certainly a turning point.

Speaker 3 (01:00:39):
Yes, So the two of them go back to the
convent and then the next big scene we get with
them is a scene where I guess it's Sunday morning,
and everybody's at chapel. They're they're sitting in the chapel
for a church service. That's like the best sermon of
all time in the best chapel of all time.

Speaker 2 (01:00:56):
Oh my God, Yes, the cryptlike heart of the con
I guess where the death shrouded nuns gather to hear
the tyrannical, threatening and domineering sermons of Father Lazaro. Here
to remind you about that God is the one who
can sends you to hell, that all your sins are
going to wind you up in hell, and then the
devil wants to possess you body and soul.

Speaker 3 (01:01:17):
Yeah, can I read part of the sermon? He says
the devil this is the very first thing we hear.
By the way, nothing leading into this. The devil uses
the body of the person he wants to master. He
uses the organs of that body for his own pleasure,
for the performing of such feats far above the capacity, strength,
or agility of the person thus possessed. So it's like

(01:01:40):
a very I don't know, not like wisdom or values oriented.
It's just like mechanically discussing the powers of the devil
and how he will use your Organs, yes, and then
he's describing to them in exquisite detail how they are
all going to burn in hell forever. The wrath of
Satan has no mercy repent. And this does lead to
just an outpouring of you know, crying out for God's mercy,

(01:02:05):
people kind of screaming and jumping up in agony and
terror and all that.

Speaker 2 (01:02:11):
And we already discussed the state of the nuns and
their habits. But the chapel here too is just downright
oppressive and grotesque. So hundreds of partially melted candles line
the altar beneath numerous effigies of the crucified Christ, effigies
that dol Green in that book The Mexican The Mexican
Cinema of Darkness, describes as having the air of an abatoir.

(01:02:32):
And mean, it's like hung meat above the altar. For me,
they brought to mind the sixteenth century Eisenheim altarpiece. This
is the one that shows like the suffering of Christ,
as if Christ is diseased. But these just, I mean,
this is a different message entirely. It's as if this
is a place where death in torment or worship just

(01:02:54):
a nightmare image here and perhaps one of the film's
most direct visual message is a place of the Disney
spirit where the flesh dies and rots.

Speaker 3 (01:03:03):
I think one of the things to really emphasize. You
did mention this, but the multitude of crucifixes. So it's
not a chapel with one big crucifix at the top.
There's there are dozens of crucified Christ's all just hanging
there in like a in rose almost. It's like stadium
seating of crucifixes ap at the top of the above

(01:03:24):
the altar. Yeah, yeah, and this is what you're talking
about with that that abatoar feeling. It's like just you know,
rows and rows of hung meat, but they're all crucified Jesus'.

Speaker 2 (01:03:34):
Yeah, as if one sacrifice, one death was not enough,
but it's instead endless sacrifices, endless deaths are necessary. So
just just such an overbearing scene. Oh my goodness.

Speaker 3 (01:03:48):
So I mentioned that in the middle of the sermon,
it it becomes so terrifying and painful that the nuns
and the girls of the orphanage are like screaming for
mercy and they're like no, no, no, I repent. And
in the middle of all this frenzy, Justine passes out
and falls unconscious on the floor. So she's unconscious and
she has taken to her room to recover. Alucarda is

(01:04:09):
left alone with her to watch over her good idea.
So once the nuns have left the room, Alucarda says
to her, monsters, monsters, they have done this to you,
yet you did not tell our secret. I have heard
the voices again, Justine, And then she describes how the

(01:04:30):
voices of the past came to her again. It's this
evocative description where they're coming out of the woods. They're
in the branches, high in the tops of the trees,
and the voices made everything clear to her. She says,
there's no one left but you and me, Just you
and me, Justine. We will make them pay bit by
bit all that has been taken from us. And I'm
wondering what this refers to here. I think you can

(01:04:52):
make an argument that they certainly live in a generally
oppressive and repressive culture and situation. I mean, we just
saw this terrifying sermon. But then again, they haven't like narratively,
there hasn't been a specific thing that has been taken
from them so far, unless there's something I'm forgetting.

Speaker 2 (01:05:12):
Yeah, unless they're referring to things that have been taken
from them in life, their parents and so forth, exactly. Yeah, yeah,
But for the most part, like it's oppressive. As had
a sequence in the chapel is it's like, oh, Justine
passed out, take her to her the room and she
can have a little time out there, like prop her
up and make her watch.

Speaker 3 (01:05:37):
Then alu Karta really gets going. She begins calling out
these names of what are presumably demons. I didn't recognize
a lot of the names, and they didn't show up
in the subtitles I was watching. But one of the
names she says is Astoroth, which I know is a
classic one of the names that appears in these manuals
of demonology. So she's calling out Astoroth, know, Secundus, whatever,

(01:06:01):
whatever all the names are, and she ends up spinning
around in a dizzy mania, screaming Satan, Satan, Satan, and
she knocks Justine to the ground. So here, I guess
we could pause and talk a bit about what is
happening to Alukarda and different ways you could interpret this film.

(01:06:24):
I guess at the top level you could ask is
this like true demonic possession or could this be taken
as hallucination and delusion. I know that tension is played
with in some nunsploitation films or films that you know,
have to do with religious mania in a you know,
pre modern Catholic context. I really don't think that is
an option we can debate in this film. It's just clear,

(01:06:47):
especially through later events in the movie, that this is
true demonic possession and the devil is real and the
demons are getting.

Speaker 2 (01:06:53):
Y Yeah, or at least at the very least, the
supernatural element is a reality.

Speaker 3 (01:07:00):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:07:01):
Like that seems to become clear as clear as anything
is towards the end of this picture.

Speaker 3 (01:07:07):
But there is a second level of questions that we
can ask about it. If this is demonic possession, what
is causing it? It almost seems overdetermined, like there are
too many different things you can point to being like, well,
that is the cause. There's several things like was al
U Karda born with some kind of demonic curse that
is suggested by the prologue that something is hunting her

(01:07:30):
the moment she's born, or did an entity attack her
or make her vulnerable at a specific point, for a
specific reason. We've almost got multiple scenes pointing to that
as well. For one thing, the curse seems to be
linked to her love for Justine, like that, you know,
they're being sort of demonically persecuted for their love for

(01:07:52):
each other. That seems like a valid interpretation. The other
thing is like, did she invite this by her interactions
with the goat man and wanting the magic knife and
all that. Did they invite this when they opened the
coffin of Lucy and let out that rasp. It seems
like maybe the answer to all these questions is yes,
which is just more confusing.

Speaker 2 (01:08:13):
Yeah, the film isn't very It's like, this is not
one of those films where Alocarda is eventually going to
be like Alucarda is no more, there is only Zuol
or something like you're even wondering to what extent she
is truly possessed by some other force or is this
just pure Alucarda then, and then on top of that
questions of hallucination and delusion or supernatural reality. The film manages,

(01:08:38):
you know, through its more surreal aspects, to kind of
have it both ways, which I think is one of
its strengths. Doyle Green in his book comments on this.
He argues, quote, it's not that the subjective and objective
moments are ambiguous and therefore demand clarification, but rather that

(01:08:58):
the scenes become subjective and objective at the same time,
and thus any clarification becomes impossible. And so he ultimately
argues for like, just the pure evocative power of images
in this film as being like really like the main feature.

Speaker 3 (01:09:14):
If I'm understanding him correctly, I agree with that. Then
it's not that it is just one way and the
film does a poor job of explaining which way it is.
It's more like it is being definitely indicated that it
is multiple ways at the same time.

Speaker 2 (01:09:29):
Yeah, And to.

Speaker 3 (01:09:31):
Expand on that, let me go back on something I
said a minute ago. I think when you sort of
contradicted me, you were right that it's not necessarily that
it's definitely demon possession. But there are elements of the
movie where if you take them at face value, it's
definitely magic, but it's not. But like, where is the
magic coming from? You suggested there's there's the we have

(01:09:54):
the demon interpretation, but you also suggested pure alu Karta
and some things point to pure Alukarta.

Speaker 2 (01:10:00):
Yeah, like eventually she's gonna make people burst into flames,
as we've been alluding to. Is it hell fire working
through her? Is she possessed by a demon? Or is
it more like and it's often compared to you know,
carry or something. Is this just like psychic powers of Alukarta?
You know what's going on? We can't decide one way
or another.

Speaker 3 (01:10:17):
Yeah, and that's where I agree. We get indications going
in both directions. Now, one indication that it is external
outside forces is something that's about to happen here, which
is the ritual scene. So right after Alukarta first seems
possessed or whatever it is and starts calling out the
names of demons, we almost like ascend into another realm

(01:10:39):
of reality where it's like you're in a dream sort of.
The lights change on the scene, and now some of
the walls in the room are gone, and the goat
man comes in.

Speaker 2 (01:10:49):
Oh god, this moment where the goat man reappears right
out of the shadows.

Speaker 3 (01:10:53):
Yes, amazing. So it's like we're as if we're in
a dream, suddenly going straight out of this moment of
what appears to be objective reality. The Hunchback appears. He
again offers the knife to Alucarda, the magic knife, and
Alucarda says, we shall make a pact and we shall
make them pay, and the Hunchback says, yes, we shall
make them pay. And the Hunchback then calls down rain

(01:11:16):
and thunder from the sky, which appear on command, while
Alucarda calls out again the names of the nine Kings
of Hell. And now the thunder and the lightning are cracking.
There is fog billowing all around, and suddenly Alucarda and
Justine Nil facing one another, naked and entranced with evil magic.
And it's this, it's this blood bond they are creating

(01:11:40):
with each other of love and violence, where they cut
each other's skin, taste each other's blood, and then kiss
with their blood mingled on their lips. And the Hunchback
is presiding over this whole ritual like a priest of evil,
and he says, you shall blend into one another and
then blend into me. It's like infinite love, infinite satan.

Speaker 2 (01:12:04):
Yeah, satanic marriage ritual really yeah yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:12:07):
And then from here the characters have already moved into
this weird anti reality dream state, and they seem to
progress even further out of the scene, out of the
real basis of the scene, into some kind of cosmic
meeting or union with a witch's coven, including the fortune
teller from earlier, I believe, and it's her and all

(01:12:30):
of these other people who we don't know who these
people are, but they're these people naked in the forest,
dancing in a circle with fires all around, praising the
demons who give them power and liberty. And then finally
a figure appears between Justine and Alukarta in full goat form,
now no longer just a man who looks like a goat,

(01:12:51):
but just a goat head a bapphamet.

Speaker 2 (01:12:54):
Yeah, yeah and yeah. He moves among them, encourages them
to kiss, and also encourages the orgiastic rights that begin
to take place all around him on the grass.

Speaker 3 (01:13:09):
Some parts of this are staged in a very funny way,
by the way, like all the witches are out there,
you know, getting busy, and the and the devil figure
is like, no that here, let me show you how
I have sex.

Speaker 2 (01:13:20):
Yeah, kind of like nuzzling their hair, like coming up,
like musting their hair up a little bit.

Speaker 3 (01:13:23):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, do that there. Yeah, yeah, but yeah,
it seems to be a celebration of Satanic libertinism.

Speaker 2 (01:13:33):
Yeah. And then at the same time we cut back
to Sister Angelica in her room.

Speaker 3 (01:13:38):
This was the thing that really like changed because you know,
we've seen movies with devil worship before, we've seen scenes
kind of like this. This is the thing where it
gets really different.

Speaker 2 (01:13:47):
Yeah, because Sister Angelica is back there and she in
her room praying just fervently for Alokarda's soul. I believe
it's Salikarda she's praying for specifically, maybe Justina's maybe just
I'm not sure. I can't remember which girl, or if
it's both girls she's praying for. But oh, she is
praying so hard and also kind of imagining the sort

(01:14:09):
of things that they might be getting up to and
to it. You could even interpret it as if she
is imagining the black mass that is that we just
saw and are seeing and are cut with this scene.
And so she prays that God protects the protect them,
and prays so hard that blood begins to see I
think first from her nostril and or her eye, and

(01:14:29):
then it's eventually just blood is coming out through her
pores until finally she succeeds in convincing God. So it
would seem to strike one of the witches dead with
like a gory smite to the next so we don't
see the hand of God, we don't see a thunderbolt.
She's praying. She's praying, and then one of the witches
is just the main witch, falls to the ground with

(01:14:51):
this bloody gash in her neck.

Speaker 4 (01:14:53):
Dead.

Speaker 3 (01:14:54):
She invokes a death curse from God.

Speaker 2 (01:14:58):
Yes, and then we cut back to her. She's levitating,
just exuberant in her room with this like weird light
plane of light coming through the windows. Oh, it's so weird.
And this is what Angelica has up to this point
been one of our more you know, seemingly well meaning
and relatable characters. She's the good nun, remember, yeah, yeah,

(01:15:19):
And but here she has prayed with like such self
destructive intensity, you know, killing a stranger out in the world,
but also like blood flowing out of her face to
do so this one, this scene is amazing.

Speaker 3 (01:15:34):
And that is the end of part one of the film.
I guess you could say the end of the first act.
And it transitions after this to the second part. Maybe
we'll be a little bit more summary in our discussions
from here on. But one of the big inciting incidents
in the second act here is the scene in the
school room where we have Justine and al Ukarda sitting

(01:15:56):
in the back, you know, they're sitting in the back
so they can cut up during class being instructed about
I don't remember what the lesson is, is something about
you know, God is good, and the girls are whispering
to each other, acting up, and the teacher is like, hey,
now is it sister Germana who's teaching?

Speaker 2 (01:16:14):
I think so, yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:16:15):
It's like, hey, now I see you acting up in class.
Could you please stand up and repeat what I was
just saying? And so the is it Alucarda or Justine
who stands up? Maybe they both do, and they begin
to recite what it first sounds like what the teacher
was saying, but instead turns into a speech on the
virtues of Satan and the deficiencies of Christ.

Speaker 2 (01:16:38):
Yes, things get out of here fast. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:16:42):
So the obviously the nuns are having none of that,
and they dismiss class and they're like, okay, we got
to deal with this problem. So they call in Father
Lazarro to set things right. They're first going to have
Alucarta go to confession with Father Lazarro and he like
gets into the confession booth and she violently attacks him. Yeah,

(01:17:06):
and this eventually gives way to the flagellation scene that
we were talking about earlier, where Father Lazarro and all
the nuns are subjecting themselves to a good hard whipping
while they're figuring out how to solve this problem. And
this was both horrifying and hilarious.

Speaker 2 (01:17:23):
Yeah, yeah, because we cut right to it. They've been
whipping on themselves for like an hour, bloody, back sweating. Yeah,
it's it's gross and yeah and a little hilarious.

Speaker 3 (01:17:32):
And there's a part in here where one of the
nuns explains that when Justine fell ill, because Justine again,
she falls ill and has to take to bed after
this outburst in the classroom, one of the nuns says
that when Justine fell ill, she was complaining about being
bothered by the light, and Father Lazarro says, that's it

(01:17:52):
a heliophobic demon, that's a sixth category devil who hates light.

Speaker 2 (01:17:59):
That was good, So now we have marching orders apparently,
though again this is the line that's also hilarious because
this isn't necessarily useful information. It's true at all, not
at all.

Speaker 3 (01:18:08):
He says it's a nocturnal demon, and he says, we
have to destroy the demon to save the girls. We
must prepare an exorcism.

Speaker 2 (01:18:17):
Yes, and as you might imagine, the exorcism is basically
going to break down to just an awful exercise in
torture where both of the girls are scrapped to to
to cross type forms in the chapel. And during the
course of the exorcism, Justine is essentially murdered by the clergy.

Speaker 3 (01:18:39):
Right, so they torture her to death in an attempt
to get the devil out of her. And I would
say it is in this section of the movie where
I'm like, oh, okay, so the clergy, the clerics, and
the clergy here are the villains of the film. This
is sort of an anti clerical narrative about how whatever
happened with Justine and and el Ukarda early this is

(01:19:00):
clearly an overreaction by the clergy, where they are, you know,
making monsters out of something less than monsters and then
creating you know, monstrous violence of their own. And that
is also the opinion of doctor Otsek when he shows
up in the middle of this torture exorcism and is like,

(01:19:21):
in God's name, what are you doing? You know, this
is madness, superstition, and he they just kind of tolerate him,
like taking over the scene and being like, we have
to put a stop to this at once, like they're
kind of like.

Speaker 2 (01:19:34):
Okay, well, it's almost it seems as if they some
of the members of the clergy realize they've gone too far,
like yeah, which they should at this point. You have
you have murdered somebody, You've tortured a woman to death.
You have gone too far, and they're being called on it,
and some of them aren't accepting that it has gotten
at hand.

Speaker 3 (01:20:01):
So Alucarda is still alive. Justine has died, but he
takes Alucarda back to his house, taking pity on her,
and takes her back to his house and leaves her
with his daughter who we met earlier, his blind daughter, Daniella.

Speaker 2 (01:20:14):
This is a point too where we get the I think,
where we get the doctor Elsik research Sayne where he
sits down in his study and he picks up a
single volume, opens it up we see the title of
the book is Satan. This is a book about Satan,
and he basically like put opens it up, turns to
like one of the illustrations, some sort of satanic woodcut,

(01:20:36):
you know, with some sort of outrageous demonic body, and
then that's just that's all it takes. He just slams
the book and he's like preposterous, a.

Speaker 3 (01:20:47):
Bunch of nonsense. And he gives a speech later about
how he was educated in Paris to believe that this
was all superstition and nonsense and that you know, we
have we have to understand the world scientifically, not by
believing in magic and demons. Right, So he has very
little tolerance for demonology. But unfortunately, so while Alukarta and
Daniella are sort of getting to know one another, I

(01:21:08):
think Daniella is offering comfort to Alucarda. Uh, doctor Oseek
is called back to the convent. He has to go
there again because Justine's body has disappeared.

Speaker 2 (01:21:19):
Uh oh that's right, yeah, what what has happened? We
have disappearing bodies and uh and then then it is
just kind of discovered that what sister Jemana has been burned, yes,
and they find her like hideously burned body that is
really gross. Yeah, really gross. They end up bringing that
into the chapel and they basically there's this whole situation

(01:21:40):
where sister Jamana's body is going to steadily come back
to life as a zombie. They end up beheading it
on the altar with the sword.

Speaker 3 (01:21:50):
Father Lazaro does. He well, it takes a lot of wax.
He's just whacking it over and over and over and over.
It's like remember the episod we did on the guillotine
with Jack Ketch, the executioner who could never do it right.
So he's whacking the neck again and again again. Eventually
the zombies head comes off and it's still sort of
like chomping around on the ground, isn't it.

Speaker 2 (01:22:12):
Yeah yeah yeah, And also the arms are still moving.
It's like just a grotesque spectacle.

Speaker 3 (01:22:17):
And here is the scene I mentioned this earlier where
doctor Otsek is like, wow, that was a real life zombie.
I repent of my scientific materialism. I now understand that
magic is real and the devil is real, and I
am I am humbled.

Speaker 2 (01:22:34):
Yeah, And this is like, it's really interesting to try
and figure out how to interpret this within the context
of this film, because I don't think this is a
situation where Montezuma is ultimately trying to say, see, look,
the so called you know, renaissance of people, the logical
scientists and so forth, the philosophers must must now realize

(01:22:56):
the religious truth of the universe. But this kind of
this feels like a track in many ways too, because
this guy was our rock of logic and reason. He
was supposed to be the Sherlock Holmes of the story exactly, Yes,
he was supposed to be the Sherlock Holmes of the story.
And now he's like, actually, I think it's black magic.
And so, you know, he was our rock and now

(01:23:18):
everything is perhaps tumbling into supernatural madness.

Speaker 3 (01:23:22):
But in the scene, he is also made aware that
oh yeah, a Lukarta seems to be possessed by the devil,
and he's like, oh no, I left her with my kid. Yes, yes,
So he goes back to his house and they're they're gone,
His daughter Daniella is gone, and so I think, is
there anything in between here? Before they end up back
at the crypt or the abandoned palace where they had

(01:23:44):
been before.

Speaker 2 (01:23:45):
That's our main next destination. Yeah, that's our big set piece,
because yeah, we get back to the abandoned palace, back
to the casket, and this is when Justine comes back
to life, rises from a casket that's full of blood
like a bathtub.

Speaker 3 (01:24:00):
Amazing.

Speaker 2 (01:24:01):
Yeah, yeah, naked covered in blood. Now, now a vampire.
This is, This is as close as we this is.
This is a true vampire. Montezuma in interviews is often
like very firm on the fact that al Karta is
not a vampire, but that he often I've seen him
stress that that she has the powers that are attributed
to Dracula in Bromstoker's novel, but not blood drinking. So

(01:24:26):
I don't know how to take all of that, but yeah,
Justine definitely has come back as a vampire.

Speaker 3 (01:24:33):
Well, she's at least got some bathory energy. She's bathing
in blood and she bites is it the mother Superior?
One of the nuns she bites I think, oh Angelica,
Oh okay, one of the nuns there there at the coffin,
and she attacks and Justine bites her on the neck
and I don't know if drinks her blood, but bites

(01:24:53):
her on the neck and kills her.

Speaker 2 (01:24:54):
Yeah, I mean she may have got a little in there,
but she makes a mess.

Speaker 3 (01:24:57):
Now what ultimately happens to Justine? I recall this actually
being one of the less impressive stagings. He's just kind
of sloshing a bottle of holy water on her.

Speaker 2 (01:25:06):
Doctor Zak is like, yeah, like this, like he has
multiple containers of holy water and heats throwing it at her.
But and so, but but then we do see she
keeps getting these like big burn marks on her back
from where the splashes are hitting her, like acid, and
so it is also grotesque as well. And eventually this
is just going to cause Justine to fall to the

(01:25:27):
ground into cintegrade.

Speaker 3 (01:25:29):
Now she melts. Yeah, but then the final confrontation actually
is with Alukarda. And does that happen here or back
at the convent? I think maybe they go back to
the convent.

Speaker 2 (01:25:39):
Yeah, I think, yeah, yeah, definitely, our main, our final battle,
our final showdown takes place in the convent itself with
all of those those creepy Christ effigies. And yeah, this
is where Alokarda goes into full carry mode, you know,
shouting the names of various demons, and when she does so,
it causes various unks and nuns to just rrupt into fire,

(01:26:03):
and we get these terrifying man on fire stunts that
I discussed earlier, Like, I have no reason to believe
anything here wasn't completely safe, or at least I've never
read anything to the counter, but in general, even a
very well done man on stunt just horrifies me.

Speaker 4 (01:26:19):
These days.

Speaker 2 (01:26:20):
It's just like, oh my god, it's just terrifying to
watch these people on fire running around, falling to the ground,
burning and burning and at times, you know, even kind
of throwing me out of the film viewing experience because
I'm like, we got to cut away. This scene has
to stop me. The guy on fire cut away, and
then you put him out after the scene, after the
shot is done. So horrifying stuff.

Speaker 3 (01:26:42):
Yes, and a Lukarda, of course, is filled with rage.
This is yet another scene where I guess it would
be worth asking what power is on display here? What
power and what motivation are on display here? Are we
seeing Alucarda's personal age and her personal power or is

(01:27:03):
she possessed and is as we heard in the sermon earlier,
the devil acting through her against his own enemies and
acting with his own power.

Speaker 2 (01:27:13):
Hmmm, you know, one way to potentially I didn't really
think about this till now, but one way to think
about this film is what if there's only one power
and it's working, both sides are using it. You know.
It's like that, you know, almost as if the supernatural
force itself is neutral, but it only takes on these
forms as it's like channeled through human ambitions and human

(01:27:35):
religions and so forth.

Speaker 3 (01:27:37):
Like a conventional war, both sides can equally make use
of the laws of physics, and here in this religious war,
both sides can equally make use of magic.

Speaker 2 (01:27:46):
Yeah, and the magic that they used to counter her
attempt to use to counter is basically bringing in the
dead body of Sister Angelica and holding her up like
a cross. Which this is, Yeah, this is I don't
think of ever seen this in a film where you know,
we've seen plenty of examples of a cross or cris
fix being utilized or some other holy item being used

(01:28:08):
to shout down the adversary, but here they lift up
the dead body of Angelica and hold her up like
a cross.

Speaker 3 (01:28:14):
Now, another good question based on this scene, why do
you think because that is ultimately how Alucarda is defeated.
Why do you think it works. Is it like the
Holy Power destroys Alucarda or does that make Alucarda repent
of her violence and destroy herself or what.

Speaker 2 (01:28:34):
I don't know. It's it's hard to figure out. I
mean you could you could certainly make a case that
Angelica was one of the people that was that was
nice to her. I mean, she was nicer. We saw
more of that between Angelica and Justine. Yes, So it's
not a perfect explanation. Or maybe it's this that you know,
Alocarta has just used up all of her rage, you know,

(01:28:55):
and at that point, like it has, it has consumed
her literally and literally turns her to dust.

Speaker 3 (01:29:01):
And then of course at the end, strangely, I would
have thought that Father Lazarro would be one of the
people who gets burned by Alikarda, but he, I think,
survives this somehow. And then at the end we've got
kind of the doctor. We've got like science and religion
just standing there side by side being like wow, that
was something.

Speaker 4 (01:29:19):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:29:19):
But but but then the the chapel is on fire,
everything is just in flames, and you know, as Doyle
Green points out that in that book, the Mexican cinema
of darkness, like, it doesn't feel like a victory for anyone.
At the end, you know, a La Carte is not victorious.
It doesn't really feel like a victory of logic and reason.

(01:29:40):
It doesn't feel like a victory of the church and religion.
He points out that in various other films, even you
know films within the Mexican tradition, fire is used to
secure victory, victory for science and reason in many cases
over an obsolete and dangerous past. For instance, we see
this in the At the end, how do they defeat

(01:30:02):
the brainiac, who himself is like an icon of a
troubling past in Mexico, They use flamethars, using fire against him,
and we see that sort of thing in plenty of
other horror movies. He writes in Alcarda, the triumph of
science or religion is turned on its head. The world
in crisis, defined by the unreasonable, the unexplainable, and the unsolvable,

(01:30:23):
is not salvaged by reason or faith. It is simply
and completely obliterated in flames. The apocalyptic collision of modernity
and tradition in a perpetual dark age.

Speaker 3 (01:30:35):
Interesting, yeah to the extent that any edifice of authority
is victorious at the end of this film. It is
not vic It has not earned its victory. It is
not victorious because of its virtues. It's more just kind
of like, you know, there's this horrible consuming fire and
it eventually burns itself out.

Speaker 2 (01:30:56):
Yeah, logic and reason are just kind of standing by
mouth gate. And if religion is victorious, it is because
it has it has achieved victory through the glorification of
death and suffering, like literally holding up the dead body
and using it to to like channel its energy against

(01:31:18):
the adversary here. Yeah, and then we just we cut
to credits and burning and that's the end of the movie.
That's it.

Speaker 3 (01:31:26):
Well, Rob, I think this was a good pick. I
greatly enjoyed al Lukarda and I haven't seen anything quite
like it before.

Speaker 2 (01:31:32):
Yeah. Yeah, it really really stands out. So you know,
obviously not for everyone, though if you listen to this
then it wasn't for you. You know it by now.
But yeah, not not for everyone, but I think a
very fascinating film and one one where you're really rewarded
by rewatches as well. So we're gonna go ahead and

(01:31:52):
close it out here, but we'd love to hear from
everyone out there. If you have thoughts on Alocarda, some
of the other films we mentioned here, Mexican cinema, Mexican
horror cinema in general, write in we would love to
hear from you. A reminder that Stuff to Blow Your
Mind is primarily a science and culture podcast, with core
episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays, but on Fridays we set
aside most serious concerns to just talk about a weird

(01:32:15):
film on Weird House Cinema. And if you want to
see a list of all the movies we've covered over
the years, go to letterbox dot com. Our username there
is weird House, and we got a nice list going.
You can see everything we've covered and sometimes a peek
ahead at what's coming next. And as we get into
October here, of course, that's going to mean a lot
of halloweeny choices.

Speaker 3 (01:32:34):
Huge thanks as always to our excellent audio producer Jjposway.
If you would like to get in touch with us
with feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest
a topic for the future, or just to say hello,
you can email us at contact at Stuff to Blow
Your Mind, dot.

Speaker 1 (01:32:49):
Com Stuff to blow your mind is production of iHeartRadio.
For more podcasts my heart heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

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