Gavin DeGraw

Wells sits down with  music legend... Gavin DeGraw.

Gavin opens up to Wells about lessons he learned in his childhood and the tough decisions he had to make early in his career.

You won’t believe the path Gavin was on before he turned to music. we hear the incredible story of why he puts all of himself into his songs.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
This is the Wells Cast with Wells, Adams and I
Heart Radio podcast. Welcoming to the Wells Cast. Another episode
that we're doing from my hometown of Monday, California and
Peddal Beach, California. And I'm so excited for the guests
we have today. But I will say if you didn't
listen to last week's episode, you should. I had one

(00:21):
of my good friends Mentor. And also, I think it's
just my boss as Chris Harrison on the Wells Cast.
If you've never figured out how the hell Chris Harrison
got to host one of the most iconic television shows ever,
you should listen to the episode that happened last week.

(00:42):
This week we have the host of a phenomenal show
called How Men Think, Gavin DeGraw. What You know him
as a singer, probably, but you might not know him
as an amazing podcast host. You're too kinds when you
you can't talk yet, don't take it back, Gavin. This

(01:07):
is an intro. Everyone listening right now, Pretend like you
didn't hear that. Okay, I'm not here, Gavin's not here.
A lot of people got pregnant from a lot of
Gavin songs. You might be someone listening right now thinking
that told kid that I've got it's because of Gavin. Well,

(01:29):
guess what you're about to find out? How the hell
Gavin got to the point that made you pregnant right
here on the Wells Cast. All right, welcome back to
the Wells Cast. Very excited about today's episode. We have

(01:51):
Gavin to grow on the show. You can speak now,
how are you, buddy? Thanks for you? Yeah, you can
talk now? You think? Yeah, how many kids do you
think that you have created? Not with your own wiener,
but through the majesty of song, not as much as

(02:13):
alcohol has done well, but hold on. Alcohol probably has
multiplied to Earth much more than any Gavin Degrass song
ever could. But I also feel like alcohol and Gavin
DeGraw coming together, it's a beautiful thing. And it's made
a lot of terrible kids, some awful kids. What do

(02:33):
you some pretty aggravated teachers out there, probably from that combo. Yeah, vicious,
you did it, thank you, you made it. I wrote it.
I wrote it for that that exact intention what music
yea that people would procreate? Uh and and perhaps phrase
little little held emons, hopefully not held emons. I want

(02:57):
to get into your backstory. But like, do you ever
write songs and you're like, people are gonna definitely have
sex to this. Uh, you know what's so weird? Um,
Typically that's so far removed from my true thought. UM.

(03:18):
I found that by writing songs that were um, sultry
and um and emotional and UM, I wouldn't call them
necessarily spiritual, but but certainly some element of spirituality UM,

(03:41):
that it creates a different sort of U sort of
listening experience. UM. I think for people, depending upon the
song of the songs that you hear that aren't necessarily
about um, a person, but they're about a feeling and
and I think sometimes when you when you write music

(04:02):
or play music that is about a feeling and sensation, UM,
it can it can create maybe more of that that
mood UM without it necessarily being you know, really hitting
that nail on the head of Oh, this song is
a sexy song, you know what I mean? I think
I think songs are sexier when they're when they're not
necessarily being so directly about sexuality. I think songs that

(04:24):
are about emotional connection and um and a little bit
more lofty ideas and thoughts are really just so much more,
uh sort of accidentally h sexy and sultry, and I
think those are the songs that are the biggest turn

(04:45):
on as a as a listener, at least at least
for me. Um So some some of the music, I
think it was interpreted as being sexy when I when
I didn't write it as anything sexy at all. To
be totally honest with you, I think I find a
funny because like, there are different types of art, right,
Like if if you make a movie about die Hard,

(05:09):
then it's about die Hard and it's about you know,
a guy trying to save a building or whatever, depending
upon the architect. He must save a building. You gotta
save the building. But like I m P, I gotta
save that one. But for but for like musicians, it's
so personal with the listener because you can write a

(05:32):
song that could be about one thing and then a
listener can hear it and it could be completely different
for them. I remember, so I come from a radio background,
and I was interviewing a band called All J who
has a song called Matilda, which is my grandmother's name.

(05:54):
So I learned to him and I was like, oh
my god, dude, you guys wrote a song called Matilda.
I that's my grand mother's name. I played that at
my grandmother's funeral. It means so much to me, and
they were like, oh, yeah, that's about the movie The Professional,
which is about like a hit man. It's a great movie,

(06:16):
but it has nothing to do with like, wonder performance
in that movie is amazing. Story to get diverted, but
also like has nothing to do with like how wonderful
my grandmother is. But that's the problem that you run into,
right Like you can be writing things that mean one
thing to you and then you have people come up
to you and you're like, oh my god, that thing

(06:38):
meant so much to me, and you're like, that's not
even close to what I was talking about. But I
also think, I mean that that's perfectly accurate. But at
the same time, I think sometimes, um, actually often I'll
write songs that are designed to be interpreted in many ways.
You write it intentionally be saved to being trepid at

(07:00):
least two ways. Um or um, I'm sorry, Tory, but
we're trying to do are you. Oh my god, tore A,
you gonna be okay, Just just get it out. I
love I love having the opportunity to correct producer for

(07:21):
a change's just crying a little bit. Were you just
listening to some of his music? Is that why you're crying?
She was like, this is such a bullet that makes
you want to sneeze. It's so um. Are you good now?

(07:44):
Or do you need some time? You need to open
a window? Are you good? Would you like a ship
of water? Do you want some bud light? Do you
want some of Chris Harrison's seagram Escape Tropical Rose available
at all the hardware stores nationwide? Can you imagine you

(08:19):
every ace hardware? That would be funny. Could you imagine
if you design a drink, You're like, just go on
global and the only place an end d is that
the hardware store. Look, nobody, nobody, He's gonna be buying

(08:41):
that drink at the hardest. We gotta go to have
an ace man some of that Seltzer. Home depot's got
that good man. You know, if you don't want to
go pick me up some snow shroubles to byfle and
some texts. We pick up some of that delicious Seltzer.

(09:04):
I need some drywall and some Seltzer. Uh. The fact
that I got Gavin to be this tickled makes me
feel really good. That is so funny. We'll get back
to it hardware stores. Uh, I forgot, but it was

(09:28):
very important. Yeah, we were talking about how like people,
uh perceive songs differently than the Okay, so that's how
artworks completely. So so yes, they do, they really do.
And but here's the thing. When you're writing the song,
you're hoping that, at least I am. I'm hoping that
people will have a very personal connection with the song somehow.

(09:49):
And there's different ways to go about writing songs, Right.
You can write songs hoping that they'll hear your story.
You can write songs hoping you speak for their story,
and and you can also write songs that are so
specifically your story that you don't care if they share
your story with you. You can do that approach like

(10:11):
you're writing a song. You may write a song thinking, oh,
this is something I'm sure they can relate to about me,
or you're writing a song that you think they can
relate to about themselves, or you're writing something that's so
you that they just want a window into your story
to know more about your life. Right, that's like that's
like the Woody Allen Approach. Right, You're write so specifically

(10:34):
your local vibe that people who are like, wow, what's
That's what it's like to be a New Yorker in
that neighborhood, you know what I mean? It's so woody, Allen.
You know. So, so I write from different from different angles.
So but depending on the song you're writing very specifically.
You sometimes you're writing something a little more ethereal. Sometimes
you're writing hoping that you're representing them because maybe you've

(10:59):
got a few friends who were going through something that's similar.
Like you know, you've got to three buddies going through
something similar at the time to each other, and you're like,
you know what, I got to write song about this
because I like two or three people in my life
going through this kind of you know, I should write
something about that. But then of course someone will come
up to you and say, Okay, I heard that song whatever,
that song maybe and uh, one day I wrote the

(11:21):
song about this and this woman, and someone came up
to me and they said to me, wow, your song,
you know insert the name here, the way you're talking
to God and I'm identifying with that relationship with God.
And it's so intimate. I too have felt that way

(11:43):
and I and I said to them, I said, you know,
I'm really happy you're telling me that, because I, up
until now that song was only between me and someone.
But you make me feel like that message is much
bigger than I had even thought I thought of I couldn't.
I wasn't thinking that big at that time. Yeah, but

(12:07):
from that point on, the song took on a larger
meaning to me, ironically, and and it was the first
time and the only time I heard a song interpreted
in a way that made the song more meaningful to
me than when I had written it for myself. Yeah,
so that that thing reidentified itself to you. Do you

(12:30):
have that was a fan thinking bigger about the song
than I had. Yeah, you know what I mean. It
was a bigger picture, and I feel like it was heavy.
I feel like, how that's how parents I feel about
you a lot, Like they think so much bigger of
you than you do, and then they'll talk to you
and you'd be like, oh, yeah, that's you're right, That's

(12:50):
what I was thinking. I guess. My next question is
of the three modes of transportation in terms of writing,
do you have a favorite writing a song for a
thing that you're seeing outside of uh, your friend group
or whatever, a thing that's happening to you personally, or

(13:13):
a message that you want to portray of those three
of those three things that you kind of mentioned, Do
you have a preferred method of writing for me? I
like to write about try to find something that allows
me to really identify myself in the tune. Um, the
first person. Yeah, and then um be very specific and

(13:40):
highly ambiguous at the same time, so that they can
interpret it or misinterpret it, Yeah, for their own life.
UM specific. In general, it's a very peculiar way to
go about it. I guess it's got to be a
hard tight rope to walks a tough one, you know.
I don't want to just every time just tell a story. Yeah,

(14:04):
Tom walked to the store. The store was closed, so
then he went to the park. That's where he met
a lady name you know, I don't I don't really
do that type of song. Right, went to Ace Hardware
and that's where he siltzer exactly. So anyway, UM, you know,

(14:26):
I like to blend a lot of things because I
grew up in a very religious household. Um, I like
to to allude to something that isn't necessarily just me
and her, but rather something me and and this like
god thing. Yeah, you know, but that doesn't necessarily have

(14:47):
to be interpreted as a God thing. It could be
a relationship with with a human or with something bigger
than us as a species, you know, and and and
UM oftentimes like to leave out the loving just an
element of things. I just try to create a relationship
element of things, so you rather just being interpersonal. It

(15:07):
can be you know, looking for something that's grander than
just you on your own. So it could be it's
not necessarily religious, it's not necessarily just personal. It could
be one of those things that's just something that's about
about a meaning of having a relationship, something that means
a lot to you, And that could be interpreted as

(15:31):
a woman you're in love with a partner, or something
bigger than us as a human race. And so it
may sound silly, I think, but um, some songs I
take that. I take that approach. And also I like
to write a lot of identity songs. I like to
write songs that um point out failure or um point

(15:57):
out where I lack. But also why now that there's
there are other things out there or someone else out
there that makes up for where I. You know, I
am um where I fall short, and I think that
we all fall fall short somewhere and um. As a songwriter,
I don't think it's necessary to just paint yourself out

(16:19):
to be triumphant about every element of your life. It's
just simply disingenuous. So I think a lot of people
can identify with the reality of needing help or needing
someone else, or or at least appreciating help from someone
else or interest from someone else who wants to be
in your life to take you to another level in
your life and your whether it be in your love life,

(16:40):
or your spirituality, or or or or your level of
success or failure, or at least looking past your failures
to find that part of you that they think is
special that doesn't matter if you're if you're doing well
or not, that they're proud of you for even making
the attempt. So I don't not take a lot of
different approaches with songwriting. I think it's important to explore

(17:02):
a lot of those those parts of yourself as a
as a songwriter, and also to expose your vulnerabilities as
a songwriter. Um. Yet at the same time to not
be afraid of your alter egos as a songwriter, because
we all have alter egos and so um. I'll also
point out that as a songwriter, when you're also the

(17:23):
artist and the songwriter, oftentimes you're held accountable for whatever
the material is that you're writing or whatever material is
that you're playing. So if I read a song about
an alter ego, right, um, sometimes you're worried as a
writer or the artist that would be held accountable for

(17:44):
the material if it doesn't suit the other material that
they had heard first. Right. So, for example, if I
write a song about my humility or my weakness on
earlier record, and then two or three records later, I
read a song about my confidence, someone may say, well,

(18:07):
I liked it better when you were humble. Yeah, but
you're saying you're still humble. You're just expressing a moment
of confidence in this other tune, just to celebrate things
being good for you, your life going well. And so
you know, for example, I wrote a song called leading Man.
You know, I wanted to write a song that made
people feel like, you know, like the head swagger, you know,

(18:31):
and you know, the open line was like a walking
like a fistful of bottle rockets. It's on with the
flint from my back pocket, you know what I mean.
It was just about being so alpha and so over
the top, you know, and we of which we've all
seen that guy walk into the club. Yeah, well well
it kind of right. And we've also always we've all

(18:51):
been that person who's felt real good, really good exactly.
You walk in and you're like, damn, I feel really
good tonight. Man, was like I got the right on,
you know what I'm saying, Like I'm here with the
right people for this place, and you know what I mean,
like dude's got my back and r blah, you know
what I mean. I know, the bartender like, hey, what's

(19:13):
up game? Like yeah, if I'm really good in here, right,
you know what I mean? That's that that environment, And
so you write a song about that type of thing,
and and and that's an expression of yourself or that's
an element of who you are. But as an artist,
knowing that you're held accountable for what you're putting out,
you know that sometimes there's going to be some sort

(19:34):
of flak for that too, you know what I mean, Like, oh,
we liked it better when you know you were singing
about you weren't sure if you fit in at that place,
and then you know the next song is, yeah, I
feel like I owe this place or what I mean. So,
so as an artist you keep that in mind too.
But for me, I think it's important to express all

(19:56):
those elements of yourself because that's who I am, you know,
and I think that's who all of us are. The show.
I don't know if anyone told you, but the show
is an origin story show. This one. Um, I'm obsessed
with how people got to where they are. So I

(20:17):
want to get into that, like it has been very interesting,
like here a little bit of that, and I actually
kind of like want to dive back in at the end.
But I want to know where you came from. Yeah, okay, um, okay,
here's where I came from. Have you ever seen the

(20:37):
movie Dirty Dancing? Yes? Do you know what's funny? My
fiance was in the movie Dirty Dancing. The like the
second iteration, you're kidding me? What was it called? Still dirty? Still?
It's just dirty dancing, still dancing. That's actually amazing, small world.

(20:59):
So so the movie Dirty Dancing, Um, it was fundamentally
based on an area of upstate New York, Okay, during
a very specific era in American history, you used to
be referred to as the Borsched Belt, right. The Catskill

(21:22):
Mountains region was a place where a lot of people
from New York City would go during the summertimes to
get out of the heat, to get a little breather,
be in the in the mountains, getting nice, beautiful, perfect
climate summers. And prior to Las Vegas, it was the

(21:45):
most popular place for performers to go up and perform.
So you had everybody performing up there during the summertime.
So in thefties and sixties, the heyday of it, you
see you know Sinatra up there, and you know Sammy
Davis Junior and Sam Cook, can you name it right?

(22:07):
So my great granddad was a dance instructor in an
m c at a hotel up there, because that's what
that was the mecca of it, right, And he would
make his kids give dance lessons to the guests to write.
So it's very much like dirty Dancing, okay. And I've
got these great pictures of my great grand dad. I
would like Sam Cook and el Fitzgerald and you know
from the era. Well, the economy died up there over time,

(22:32):
whether it was bad politics or you know, air conditioning
becoming more normal or air travel becoming more affordable, right,
whatever it would be. And over time, the State of
New York end up building prisons and upstate New York too,
you know, help the local economy. So I ended up
growing up in the prison town era of the dirty

(22:57):
dancing area. Okay, so most of the hotels were closed down,
were closing down, and the area was really i'd say
economically depressed. Let's just say, I think that's the term, right,
the politically correct term for poor. And uh, Ultimately, even
though my pops was, you know, really a musician and

(23:20):
my mom was a musician, That's what they were at heart,
and they had played music and stuff like that, ultimately,
you know, they had to get you know, everybody got
really you know, normal jobs. My dad ended up working
for the State of New York and worked at a
Maximax prison. So my hometown had three prisons in it
and a small town though, you know, I mean I
graduated with eight people, so you can imagine it was

(23:43):
like a good part of the local economy. She going
to school, whether you note knew it or not at
the time, you essentially were going to school with. Definitely,
they were definitely inmates kids and officers kids growing up together.
That was certainly a part of the of the local community.
You know. It wasn't something we thought about really as children,

(24:03):
but now that I think back on, I realized that
was part of it. Mixed in with whoever was left
over from the old school era of people who vacationed
up there and probably fell in love with the mountains
and decided let's move to the mountains from New York
and the Sinet, you know. So it's old money, maybe
a little bit of that, maybe a little bit of

(24:24):
old money, it's probably and then people who are dealing
with the convicts. Yeah yeah, and mixed in with some
you know, town jobs, a lot of town jobs. You know,
it's mostly we'll see whatever jobs kind of came through
through local government or state government, you know what I mean.

(24:44):
And they had a good portion of that school on
the free lunch program. You know, like right now, if
you looked at my hometown, there's probably seventy of that
school is probably on a free lunch program. You would
be probably my guest, um, But that's that's the town,

(25:06):
you know. So it's one of those places where, you know,
we we saw the trajectory i think years ago where
it was headed only because we knew what it was
compared to prior to that. We're like, oh, so it
used to be really really nice up here and thriving,
you know, and every time my dad, you know, it
would drop me off the school, you know, like if
I missed the bus or something. That God used to

(25:28):
be so packed around here. Man used to be girls
walking up and now this road allow, it was the best,
you know. So it was the name of this town.
It's called Fallsburg Fallsburg, New York, and the town I
grew up in. It was a hamlet of the town
of Falsburg called South Fallsburg. There was no northwest or
East Fallsburg, but there was a South Fallsburg as Faldsburg

(25:49):
was made up of a bunch of other hamlets Hurleyville, Woodburn, Woodridge,
mountain Dale, Block Sheldre and had this really checkered um
sort of um story on top of that. About thirty
minutes away is where the original Woodstock festival happened. And so,

(26:10):
which was actually a town called Bethel, New York, never
actually happened in the town of Woodstock. A lot of
people don't know that as far you snobby artists out
there who was like, I gotta place some woodstock, Like
Woodstock really never happened there. So you know, it happened
in Bethel. Guys. Sorry, I'm sorry to break it to you.
Um and uh, you know what I'm saying. I'm a
cool little town, but you know, it never happened in

(26:32):
your town, um you know. And so I grew up
here in all the stories about Woodstock and you know,
my dad and my mother wood Stock together. My dad
was there with his draft papers for Vietnam in his
back pocket, you know, and he didn't want to go
to war and this and that. You know, it was
the era, um so, but it was always so there

(26:54):
was that undertone of Woodstock happened near here and all
the entertainment used to be around here. But we're kind
of growing up in this really economically, you know, stressed out,
tough place to live. The weather always sucks, like after
summer's over, it's you know, it gets real up there,

(27:15):
you know what I mean. And it's like everybody had
a plow truck, you know. My father would make me
go snowshovel my our driveway. Then I have to go
snowshovel my other neighbor. And then I would have to
go snowshovel my other neighbor. I remember he made me
go do that. Right before a basketball game. I had
a scrimmage. He goes, so shovel out our cars. Then
go do effie, Now go do happy and I did.

(27:37):
I went to a ball game. The basketball felt like
it weighed eight pounds. I couldn't even hold it in
my hands. I was like, I'm out of here. Let
me out of here, you know what I mean. But
that was the town. You know. It's not like everybody
had like a plow truck or was getting there their
driveway plowed. You know. It was like go dig it out, man.
And that's just how he grew up and um and

(27:58):
so I just think that that environment, though, I think
was very helpful in what way. Because my father, I
remember when I told him I was going to play
music for a living. He said, uh, he said, he said, good,
I think you should do that. But just so you
know you're not going to be some lazy ass artist.

(28:21):
You know you're gonna work for it. You're gonna outwork everybody.
That is how you're gonna do it. I don't want
to think because you're an artist, it could be like
some kind of fucking bum, you know what I mean.
He said, you gotta go and you gotta work for it,
and you gotta work harder than everybody working like it's
a normal job, and you really need it because you
do because we don't have money, you know what I mean,

(28:42):
And so and so all that stuff kind of added
up for me. And I remember when I was about
nineteen eighteen or nineteen years old, we went down to
a local garage as we live seven tenths of a
mile from Main Street, and uh, car is getting worked on,
and uh, you know, we never had any money, man.

(29:05):
I mean, I remember going to the local lumber yard,
Fallsbroug lumber I remember where the guy would know my
dad like, hey, what do I owe you? Like, oh,
it's such and such. I remember. I remember being at
that age where I was tall enough to see into
my father's wallet, but not by much. And I remember
he like, what's that number again? And he'd opened up

(29:27):
his wallet and he looked at wallet like he was
counting bills. But there weren't any and I remember seeing
in there and I remember thinking we're broke, and my
father would lean back and he say, sorry, man, I
just don't have that much, that much on me right now.

(29:49):
Can I pay next, you know, next time I see it?
Oh yeah, yeah, no problem, no problem. I remember this
great guy, Stevie Levine lived up the road. Yeah, yeah,
no problem, no problem on the lumber yard. I remember
one day we go pick up the the car from
a local garage downtown, Frankie Shraddon was his name, great guy,

(30:11):
and my father stops stops by the payoff, you know,
repair on the car, you know, and uh, we leave
the garage and we're headed up to his parents after
my father's parents house. They lived about a mile from
the garage, about seven tenths of a mile from town.
So you know how I grew up, you know, near
the parents, neither grandparents. I loved the seven tenths of

(30:32):
a mile though. By the way, it's so specific to
down It's so you've said a couple of times, and
I thought, wow, that's so specific. Continue one, I'm sorry, no,
all good. So I remember he paid off the garage
and we got in the car and I said, I'm
my dad, as they're going over this low bridge. This

(30:55):
bridge is probably it wasn't be like a real it
wasn't like a significant pret It just went over the
local piece of local lake, little little edge of it.
You know. It was five ft above the water. You know,
it was a hundred feet long. And I said, Dad,
if you could change anything about your life, what would
it be. And uh, he says, he says't me. It

(31:20):
turns to me. He goes, I never would have stopped
playing music, he said. I said no. He said, yeah,
I never would have stopped playing me. That's that's one
thing I change. And I thought, noted, you know, I
remember that, and I remember I thought to myself, I
don't want to be the guy in the car with

(31:44):
his kids thinking to himself, I didn't chase my dreams.
And heavily enough I thought, and I knew it was
my father's game to play music, and it's part of
what lent itself to my desire to accomplish the mission

(32:06):
of play music for living. Because I wanted to validate
my father, and I wanted to validate my mother's grandfather.
I wanted to validate that there was talent there and
that it wasn't bullet to pursue talent. It's not a

(32:27):
pipe dream and and that um and that it's ah,
it's not a last resort to proceed your passion, you
know what I mean. It requires a level of professionalism
to accomplish the mission and bravery and uh and and

(32:50):
so once upon a time, nineteen years old, I'm dropping
out of my second college. And I just visited my
mother's sisters family. All right, put in place in time
where nineteen years old Berkeley College and music. Okay, so
that's but also like that's very like well known, right,

(33:13):
musical college. Right, It's like Berkeley and Belmont are the
two big ones I feel like in the country. So
you're dropping out of Berkeley, right, Okay, I'm dropping out
of school again, and I'm about that. I'm telling them
I'm going to drop baschool again. And uh, they're asking

(33:34):
me why, and I said, yes, you emotional, So I said,
it's because this is holding me back. College is paid
to play. And what I mean is you're paying to
be in a safe place to pursue your passion. And

(33:55):
that's speaking lane. That's not courageous, that's not the job
market that's where people go when they're scared of the
real world world. That's where the parents sent them went to,
scared to death that their baby will be out in
the real world. Yeah. Period colleges where you send your

(34:18):
kids because you're a scared parent and you're afraid your
kids are gonna make bad decisions. You know what I'm saying,
it's a halfway house. And guess what, it's a very
expensive one. It is very expensive, that's right. And so
from where you came from, an extremely expensive one, that's right.

(34:40):
And so unless you're getting a scholarship free ride totally,
or unless you go to medical school, unless you're becoming
an architect, I say, Savior Dough, invest that book, and
you're rent to chase your dream. Because if you're going

(35:04):
to be out of the job market accumulating tremendous debt,
it's way worse, way worse debt than you would have been.
And if you were playing a couple of gigs at night,
working a job, I mean, think about the debt you're in.
Then you know what I'm saying, Well, it's crazy, it's

(35:25):
absolutely crazy. The math doesn't add up for me. Now,
if that adds up for someone else's parents. You know,
I blew you a kiss, but it doesn't work for me.
And I realized the fear of the folks was mostly
just that they were afraid I wouldn't have a backup plan. Okay,

(35:45):
but hold on to you. You tell them this, and
like I imagine, like from from what I've heard of
the story, your parents seem very blue collar. You get
to college, you go to college, you get a good job.
You get a good job, you get a good pension.
You got to good pension. Your kids are me fine, Like,
like I could hear that you're telling your parents, Hey, listen,

(36:07):
I'm bailing out of this school, which is by the way,
just so people know, it's not easy to get into
the Berkeley College of Music. It's not you're now leaving
this place. What is their response, Sure you should do this,
Sure this and that. I don't know if this is

(36:30):
the right move. I said, this is the right move
every year I told them this very fundamentally. I play
music for a living, you know kind of music I
want to play for a living. I want the world
to hear. But the problem is when you're trying to
play music that the world is going to hear, and
you know that there's a limited time when you can
do that. Your youth is a window that's always closing, okay,

(36:56):
And the fundamentals are that the market knows that. So
therefore the window of opportunity is always closing. So the
longer ride delay to head to that window, the more
narrow that opening is going to be. And if I'm
going to sit there in the college wasting my youth

(37:18):
out of the competitive market to perform music, that's another
two three four years of my youth were marketable. But
you had the wherewithal to see that. Like that is
what you're saying is empirically so correct, but also very
hard to grasp at nineteen years old. Yeah, I think

(37:43):
you're right, But you know, when you look at the
success and and you're right, I guess, because but when
you look at the success of what was happening with
popular music, you know, you see you always see boy bands, Yeah,
you see um, you know, child stars and things like that,
and that's all over the radio, and occasionally in a
nominally breaks through an act that actually you know, plays

(38:06):
her instrument and they can sing and they write songs.
I knew I was not going to be in a
boy band that that doesn't speak to me. And I
knew I was no longer thirteen, you know what I mean.
I didn't have stage parents and that type of thing,
you know, that kind of stuff never really appealed to me.
It's not what I wanted. I wanted to make the
kind of music I love listening to when I was

(38:28):
growing up. And I was like a big billy Joel fan.
And you know Tom Petty and Bob Seeger and the Beatles,
and you know Mellancamp and you know Elton and Sam
Cook and Marvin Gaye, and you know musicians, musicians, musicians
that musicians look up to, you know. And but I

(38:49):
also knew, just to be realistic, that no nobody was
going to be interested in signing a fifty year old musician.
You know, you gotta go in when you're when you're
young enough, because the audience that distinguishes listener's taste is
always a younger audience to begin with. And and so
I knew I was already at a disadvantage because I

(39:11):
was already nineteen, and I thought that was too old.
In fact, probably the most depressing day of my life
was the dad turned twenty one because I thought that's it.
I didn't make it yet and I'm already twenty one
game over. Okay, so you turned twenty one. Yeah, your

(39:32):
big hit comes at what year? Years later? I mean,
I'll tell you what. When I was nineteen, I told
my folks I was leaving school and I was all upset.
We had it. We had it out, you know. My
pops got out of the car and we was crying.
I was crying. He sat up in New York. This
is outside of Berkeley, outside of my apartment. He says,

(39:54):
you're my hero. He said to me, it's heavy. I said,
what he says to me, you're my hero? I said,
why would you say that? He said, this is heavy?
For my hold on? He said, do it. Oh, he said,

(40:16):
I never had the courage to do what you're doing,
to go all in, and I know you do. I said,
thank you, love it, you know big and uh. Because
the thing that also is frustrating is that the most
power that you need, Like, is that the most wind

(40:38):
in your sales that you can get your father's uh,
your father telling you what you're here us. I don't
know if if there's anything other than that, Like you
said that. I said, what happened your dad saying that
you're my hero. That's like, well I can, I can

(40:59):
to acclamat ever snow, you know, like that's so big right, Well,
this is the same guy that you know. Six years later,
I came off my first hit and I got out
of the van, exhausted driving all night, and I crawled
out of the van and he had been leaving gravel
in front of the house. And I went to give

(41:22):
him a hug. I said, Dad, I couldn't see you,
and he gave me half a hug. He walked over
me with a pick axe. He gave me half a hug.
He said, good to see you. Take this pick axe.
And I needed to dig a trench from that edge
to the property line over there, over to that propably

(41:44):
line over there. I said, Dad, I'm driving all night.
He goes, that's okay, don't forget where he came from.
I needed to dig a trench from that line, not deep,
just deep, just keep the rain off the house. M
I was like, what, You'll be good, You'll be done

(42:04):
in a few hours. Yeah, you know what I mean.
And but that was my pops, you know, so you
know that was years later. That was seven, Okay. So

(42:27):
I want to get back to you breaking through because
it's one thing for your dad to be in tears,
being like you can do the thing that I could
never do, and that means so much to me, and
that meant so much to you. But I want to
get to the point of which your father seeing it

(42:51):
makes it all worthwhile because there was a time that happened.
I know there was where your dad was like I
was right about him. Well he was. My father was

(43:11):
because he had played music for living and he knew
that that that world and that um feeling, and he
knew he had talent for it. My brother and I
played music, you know, growing up through high school and
played ballrooms and stuff. When you quit playing ball and
you're like your buddy's like yo, man comes touch something.

(43:34):
Actually now I'm out me at the bar tonight. You
know it's Tuesday's know what I mean. And like me
and my brother are playing gigs and my dad be
out there hanging out having a beer, you know, getting
up playing with us and stuff like that. And that's
just how he grew up, you know, and um it
created a different sort of family, uh, dynamic and families

(44:01):
that play music together or I think, are unlike any
other type of family. There's another family I grew up
with the name of the Rausches, and they all played music.
They're a great group of people and they all played great.
Actually Seth who's also my age um, he's in uh
he's Keith Urban drummer. He's wonderful musician. He grew up

(44:21):
you know, Dallas, you know, the next the next town over.
You know, me and his cousin went to the problem together.
You know what I mean. I mean it's like just
a you know, musical families, and it gives those families
another excuse to hang out. It's like, yeah, come hang out.
You bring your drum kit and all such and such,
and I'll bring a bad joe and you bring such

(44:43):
and such. You know, it's a whole another culture. When
you got families out of playing music, you know, you're
going and having a family union, having a hooting nanny.
You know, when you're all camp fire in and if
somebody's roasting a pig and you know, people are playing,
they're picking and playing accordion and and singing old you

(45:03):
know Hank Williams songs and stuff like that. And so
it's another world really, you know. Um, and so my
father seeing uh, these small successes happen, and my mother
seeing these small success out and the rest of the
family seeing these small successes happen, gave them something to

(45:24):
you know, talk about back home and to be proud of.
And you know, your neighbors were proud, and they were
hanging out, and they were coming down and seeing a
show here and there in New York City, and they
wanted to support you. It's a beautiful thing, you know,
when you're um in a small town. Also, you know,
there's maybe there's less events happening. So it's nice when somebody,

(45:46):
you know, they're they're they're proud of you. They tend
to be. You know, a lot of people are proud
of you when you're out in the big city trying
to make it and maybe you're having a little bit
of success. Um, they're calling their friends or their family members. Hey,
do you know anybody who works at such and such
Gavin's gotta give? Do you think you could have? You
know what I mean, they're all doing what little you know,

(46:07):
if they can do anything, they're trying you know. Um,
of course you know you you even from a small town.
You're gonna have your haters. You're gonna have the guy
who hates your guts because you got out, you know
what I mean. There's always that guy, you know, the
one who, no matter how nice you ever worked to him,
all he's thinking is fuck you. You know, there's always

(46:28):
gonna be that. You can't do anything about that. There's
nothing you can do about that. You know. Um, you
just gotta keep going and um. But but fundamentally, you know,
those the people who knew you when you were growing up,
they're really proud of you because they know it's such
a bizarre, impossible dream to see your passion come to fruition. Um,

(46:55):
particularly in the earts. You know, it's we all know
it's an opinion based game. So it's not like you're
playing basketball and someone's like, you're obviously the best basketball player,
so you'll be on this team, you know what I mean.
You could be the greatest musician in the world and
not ever get a gig, you know, because it's well,
it's according to my opinion, it's not very good, you know,

(47:15):
someone will say, So, you know what I mean, It's
not like basketball. You're just junking on everybody's ask. Yeah,
you know what I mean, Like if you were the
greatest and you're clearly just dominating everybody. Music is different,
you know, it's a it's an art, it's an opinion.
So so no matter how much time you put in, uh,
and no matter how good you think, you know, how

(47:38):
matter how good of a job you think you're doing,
someone will say it's garbage. You know, It's just the
nature of it. You know, some people won't like it
just because it does sound nice. They go, it's too
nice for me. Yeah, whatever, give me a break, you
know what I mean. So this is just the nature
of it, you know, I know. But the moment that like,

(47:59):
you have had a hit, you know, like it was charting,
was on the radio, like it was a thing. What
did your family say then, Like, because like it's so
dope that like your parents wore championing you beforehand, and
like being like the fact that you're living in your
dream is what I actually why I've worked so hard

(48:23):
because I want my kids to live that thing. Yeah,
they were like, don't do what I do. Of course,
you know what I mean. But here's what I want
to hear about. I want to hear about the time
that your parents heard that song, or or like we're
like I can't get any more tickets sold out, you know,
like I want that story. And then there's several there's

(48:46):
several layers to it. Okay. So my brother Joey is
a dynamite musician and uh actually look for his record.
It will be coming out. It's called the Steady Drinkers,
so um of it. It's a great name right straight
up in rock band and um so, so he uh,

(49:09):
he's always been, uh somebody who was listening to music
and showing me music and stuff like that because I
was a little brother, you know. So he'd say, oh God,
you gotta hear this record. Bla blah. You know. He's
get in the car and he's playing like some old
Boston record yeah, you know, or like Queen records and
things like this. And so anyway, um, I would play,

(49:33):
you know, all these cover songs, you know, because he
and I were playing these cover bands. So one day
he walks in to the room where the piano was
at and we had this rickety, just crap piano at
the house. You know, some of the keys didn't work.
It was a lot of tune, you know, and I
didn't really have a good instrument, and but I'd be
in there, like looking at these books, reading all these

(49:54):
you know songs, figuring out these songs I liked. And
he said, what are you doing? I said, I'm practicing,
and I'm learning this song them that's song. He said,
why don't you write your own song? Why do you
write your own songs? I said, well, the all the
great ones already written, I may as well just learn these,
you know, which is ironic because when I was a kid,
I used to write songs when I was like a
little kid. But then I stopped because I thought, what

(50:15):
am I doing? It's embarrassing. So he told me, well,
if you don't write your own songs, I'm fifteen, why
should at anybody remember you? Which is a challenge. So
I immediately began writing songs literally that day. Literally, I
actually remember the first tune I ever wrote in that

(50:36):
capacity at the piano, the descending bassline, I'm ripping off
the beatles. I'm writing about some girl and her very
complex story, and it's really elaborate, and I was thinking
to myself, what the hell am I doing? I know
nothing about this I'm singing about somebody's story, just to
make up some interesting story about something I knew nothing about,

(50:58):
to tug it hard strings. And although I like the tune,
all I could think of was this is utterable. Yeah,
the story is, you know what I mean. But for
years I would played these songs and my brother. We
end up moving to Manhattan March. We got a one
bedroom apartment. We shared a bedroom in Hell's Kitchen forty

(51:21):
nine between ninth and tenth, across the streets from a
high school that was basically training children to get ready
for prison. And every day I'd be writing songs, working
our day jobs, odd jobs, selling cigarettes, magazines at chios, whatever,
waiting tables, drinking all night. Anyway, I'm playing songs from

(51:46):
my brother all the time. He's always going, it's pretty good. Huh,
it's pretty good. Huh, it's pretty good. One day I
play the song I Don't Want to Be and I
played the hook, and my brother standing at the edge
of the piano at this little apartment I had, and

(52:08):
he goes, that's your hit. You finally got one, You
finally got it. He freaked out. Yeah, I did really think,
so you finally got it? And it was I Don't
Want to Be and uh, ironically, I had already signed

(52:32):
a publishing deal um with Warner and so I was
a writer already, but I hadn't written that song yet.
And I essentially got signed to Warner Brothers Warner Chapel
on a song called more Than Anyone, which ended up
being a B side on my first record. But when

(52:52):
I Don't Want to Be that's the one that made
my brother lose his mind. And uh and so ultimately, yeah,
that was my first hit and it and it did.
It changed my life. And you know, you go from
you know, playing for you know, a couple of bucks.
You know, I was already making living in New York.
You know, I was playing ballrooms and I was I

(53:14):
got to the point where I was doing actually prove
well um and those bars. I I only had to
really play one night a week. I had the rest
of the week off because I was making really good money. Um.
But I would play out multiple times a week anyway.
So I'd do my money gig once a week, and
then I'd like throw on a guitar or whatever, and
then I'll go play these other dates that were not

(53:37):
official dates, you know, like down by Trade World Trade Center.
After not eleven, I would go play there every once
a week. It plays that's no longer there, but I
go down there because I knew the workers are down
there and stuff like that. I want to play like
a little local gig and stuff. They'd be hanging and um.
And so I'd still play several nights a week. But
I knew that I could. I was like in a

(53:57):
pretty luxurious position as a musician and just playing gigs
that that my money gig was once a week, and
it was good enough money to get through the week,
which was crazy in New York, you know, because New
York's expensive. But I had a good following, and um,
my friends were showing up and buddies of myne are
just promoting me, you know, just guys that are drinking,
buddies of mind. But yeah, man, my buddy's playing. It's

(54:18):
like you know that hang, how the hang is you know,
and uh um. But going from that environment where your
folks are coming to the shows and they're happy about
a couple hundred people out, you know, coming out at night,
to seeing you on the road and you know, playing
with you heroes and your heroes and stuff. Um, like

(54:42):
life changing, you know what I mean. And it's not
like I was. It's not like I started, I had
a hit and all of a sudden, we're rich. You know.
That wasn't it at all, because you're not, you know.
But but it's still psychological. It's a justification, right, It's
a validation. That's what I meant to say. It's validation.

(55:02):
So suddenly you have this, it's it's an emotional wealth. Yeah,
and which, by the way, you're walking on water, which,
by the way, I feel like is actually more valuable
than real wealth. It is. Yeah, it is, you know why,
because it's health. Yeah, it's your health. And it also

(55:25):
confush you forward for a long time. Yeah, you know word,
actual money can only push you forward until it runs out. Yeah.
And uh, and so that that that that moment in
your life and that that that being on the way
up is a special time to you know, and you're

(55:47):
what twenty five. I didn't get a record dealtil I
was twenty six. When, yeah, I turned a record deal down.
When I was one, I had moved to New York.
I had been working at a lumber yard and um,
you know, like packing trucks and like you know, packing

(56:08):
flatbeds and you know, tacking together kitchens and you know,
building some bullet wine racks. And you know, man, that
wasn't no carpenter, you know, but I could swing a hammer,
you know. So um, you know, it wasn't like you
wouldn't want to live in my house that I was

(56:30):
building for you. But I'll show up to work, you know,
and do the job. And at that time, I was like, oh,
I gotta get out of here. Me and my brother,
who like I played one gig in New York City
September September seven, and then we're at the bar of

(56:50):
the place called The Bitter End, which is the first
place to ever give me a gig. Was run by
a guy named Kenny Gork, a lovely guy. I've been there.
I've been there, places in an institution. Every buddies played there,
everybody right. So um, my brother and me sitting at
the bar, and he said, we gotta live here. I said, yeah,

(57:12):
you're right. I know you're right. He said, when do
you want to Let's pick a date. We'll be here
by that date. What date, I said, I don't know,
six months, six months from right now? He said, what's today?
I said, I don't know. March four, we moved into

(57:33):
Hell's kitchen and I had sold my truck. I had
a little money from working in the lumber yard, and
uh um, I had already turned down a record deal,
and so I had been given this bum mass offer
from a major label, you know. And then the guy

(57:54):
I was like, why would you turn this down? What
do you got going on? I said, not a lot.
I worked the lumber yard, you know, upstate. I make dick,
you know, I said, I walk into your building. It's
really nice. I've seen the statue of you know, such
and such. Won't say because I won't get up and
um all this beautiful building location, and I know that

(58:17):
if I signed this deal, I don't in this building.
That doesn't make me anything. I'm just proper to here,
you know, I said, But even though I just work
at the lumber yard, I have complete freedom, and your
deal it's not a good deal. And that tells me
you just think I'm not good enough. So that's more

(58:38):
my problem, you know, I said, I think your deal
would reflect what you think of me, and you don't
think much of me, so that tells me I'm just
not good enough yet. And I need to go work
on it, that's all. And so I wasn't upset at them.
I just knew that I wasn't good enough yet, because
if you're good enough, and if it was the right

(58:58):
time or if you remark, whatever it was, it was
really on me. You know. I didn't want to blame them.
A lot of people like to blame somebody else. You
know what I say, When they blame somebody else, that's bullet.
It is on you, you understand me. So if the
offer is bad, you're bad. You are worse what they're offering.

(59:26):
By the way, okay, because if they really really need you,
the number is going to come up. If you're doing
a great, great, great, great job, your value is higher.
So for me, I knew I wasn't doing a great
enough job because if I was, they would have thought
my value was higher. So I knew I still sucked

(59:49):
and I needed to work on it, and it took
me years longer. And I'm happy that it took me
years longer. I'm happy that they knew I sucked, because
had I gotten signed, then what if accidentally I would
have had a hit and still sucked. Now you suck

(01:00:11):
in your famous and you're famous for sucking. Do you
understand what I'm saying? That's my life. I know. I'm sorry,
that's worse. I believe anybody can get famous. What matters
is what you get famous for. Hopefully it's for being
good at your craft, you know. And so whatever that

(01:00:34):
thing is, I thought it was important that that their
deal told me that I sucked because you know, I
because I did suck, and the deal got better when
I didn't suck as bad anymore, you know what I mean?
And then I hope you renegotiated it and got it

(01:00:56):
a little bit better. Not with somebody else, but but
I did, and and that was more. But that deal
was an indication of, hey, don't suck as bad anymore,
you know what I mean? Like and and um that
that that to me was a lesson. You're worth what

(01:01:18):
they're offering, you know what I'm saying. Or not, you're not.
You're worth it there, you're offering you're worth what they're
willing to pay you. Because when you start negotiating, if
that price doesn't come up, it's not because they won't
pay me. It's you're not worth that much to them.
That's all there is to it. And for me, I

(01:01:38):
wasn't good enough to be worth any more than that.
And to me that I had to take that upon
myself to say my songs, my songs aren't good enough.
You know what I mean. I need to home my craft.
I need I need to get better at this craft,
at this at this skill. I'm not taking this seriously enough,
you know, because if I was, their math would fleck

(01:02:00):
that that I put in the time for this, you know.
And um, for me, it was a lesson. I wasn't
mad at them for for a bad offer. I thought
the offer was perfectly I thought that that offer was
the perfect lesson. To be totally honest with you, earlier
you were talking about a question that you were asked

(01:02:21):
and it meant something to you. And normally I do
a like a rapid fire thing at the end of
the show. But I don't want to do that. Actually,
I want to kind of end it with your own
I do nothing rapidly as you can say no. But
I also loved Charles Dickens novel, all the words, all
of them. Yeah, I get paid beautiful. I will say

(01:02:42):
this like actually, like I was noticing this because my
fiance is from New York and it's very funny, Like
New Yorkers are very interesting to me. Um, you're New
York when you want to be New York when you
have to be, when you're talking about like being tough

(01:03:03):
and like going through ship your New York and then
when you're like sentimental, then all of a sudden, you're
like non like that, there's there's no dialect anymore, And
I find that very interesting, Like when you want to
be tough, it's a it's not even yes, it's dialect,

(01:03:23):
but it's it's almost like a state of mind that
you get into of like Okay, I need to get
back to where I'm from. I'm from and I gotta
talk like it's it's very interesting, Like if you go
back and listen to this episode, there are moments when
you're talking about your childhood and times that were tough.
And I notice it because I'm a radio guy, the

(01:03:45):
way that you change your voice. But you're also a
performer and that's what you do normally. But it's very interesting.
When you want to be who you are, it bleeds
out of you, you know, and I love that about you. Earlier,
you said something you asked the question, uh if you

(01:04:08):
could change anything about your life? What would you change?
Was that? The question that you posed was that your
dad asked that I asked my father, that you asked
your father that I said, what would it be? I
have a change anything about love? What would it be?
You're an adult now, how do you answer that? Mm? Hmm.

(01:04:31):
Probably would have rented instead of bought Gavin to grind.
Everybody on the welles gast everyone listened to uh oh

(01:04:53):
that really really? Oh? How men think on wherever you
get your podcast, I'm sorry you got me there at
the end, you feel good. I love you so much.
Thank you for being honest and real and like emotional.

(01:05:18):
Obviously I'm a big fan of yours. Thank you man.
Thanks for that. Man. I appreciate your time. Man. What
a great show. He has a great show. You're a
great interview, total natural. Thanks. Do you want to get
a beer? Yeah? Man, beers beers for sure? All right,
see you buddy, See you man. Thanks for your time. Brother.
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(01:05:42):
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