February 9, 2023 • 39 mins
Actor, writer, activist & organizer, Dallas Goldtooth, only got 3 hours of sleep last night, but he's up for a lively conversation with Josh. As "Spirit" on the FX series Reservation Dogs, Goldtooth subverts expectations and breaks down long-lasting tropes in American media. Discussed: Hell Let Loose, night owls, Avatar, Harry Potter the trust fund kid
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:17):
Hey, and welcome to what Future. I'm your host, Joshua
to Pulsky. Nothing's on my mind. My mind is absolutely
vacant at this point. I'm so drained of ideas, I'm
so drained of inspiration. Right now, I'm a husk. I'm
a shell of a person. Like I'm walking around. It
looks like a person. I'm talking, I'm doing things, and
(00:39):
yet inside there's just nothing. It's empty, It's hollow in here,
and I'm just very tired. You know, it's the end
of January. I try to do dry January. I failed
Dry January became wet January, and I have to say
it makes me a lot happier to drink. And you know,
(00:59):
maybe that is a bad sign. Maybe that's maybe that
means there's something wrong with me. But there's something wrong
with everybody. I mean, it's not just me. It's all
people have a problem, and some people fill that problem
up with vodka, and some people, you know, I don't
know what other people do, because I'm I'm not going
to make assumptions about humanity or not. Maybe I'll make
(01:21):
assumptions about humanity, just not individual people that make up humanity. Anyhow,
this has nothing to do with the fantastic guests that
we have on the show today, who hopefully, if he
is not already a household name, he should become a
household name. Of course I'm talking about and you don't
know what I say, of course, like you know who
exactly who I'm talking about, but it could be literally anybody.
(01:42):
But I'm talking about fascinating and hilarious man named Dallas
gold Tooth. You may have seen his work on the
show Reservation Dogs. And he's here with me now. So
(02:10):
I'm gonna say a few things about you. You're an actor,
is that true? I am in some In some circles,
they would say yes, a writer, is that correct? Yes,
that is correct, an activist, an organizer? True or false?
I would say true? Okay, co founder of comedy group. Yes, okay,
Wow that was intense. I felt that. Hold on, But
(02:31):
now before we get into all the interesting stuff. How
much sleep did you get last night? How many hours
did you got? I got two and a half hours
of sleep? Yes? Why why would you only sleep for
three hours? Because I I am horrible at time management,
I've always been, and I'm a procrastinator and I am
(02:54):
working on a draft for season three of Reservation Dogs,
which I'm a writer on, and so I have to
work on a draft, had to turn an outline for
another show that I'm pitching with the buddy of mine
and we're trying to get into development. And in between
those two projects which I needed to get done, I
decided to play some video games. And you know a
good procrastinator. Wait, so um, yeah, it was a late night. Okay, okay,
(03:18):
this opens up a lot of the avenues of question,
but I'm gonna start with the thing that I'm most
interested at this moment is what game were you playing?
And at what time were you playing? At as like
one in the morning, I was playing a game called
hell Let Loose. It was World War two first person
shooter game, hell Let Loose. I've I've never heard of
this game. This is a new game? Is it an
(03:40):
old game? It's like about three years old hell Let Loose.
I'm looking. I'm looking at this right now hard on. Yeah,
because I'm like, I'm a huge gamer. So how interesting.
It's a first person shoot. It's one of those like
it's in the realm of like realistic meaning it one shot,
one kill thing. It's a tactical game. You have to
work with your squad. Actually a chief objective it is.
(04:00):
I like it the fact that it's like you have
to communicate with people, so you can't just go and
be like I'm just gonna shoot click click click click.
You actually have to work as a squad, as a team.
So this is good. So this is a game, like,
you're a soldier, it's World War two? Is that easy?
World War two? You are what signed you want? Hold on,
let's make sure this is your wich? Side are you
(04:20):
fighting for in this game? It's a multiple really, you
could be you could be a Nazi and you can
be American, you can be rushing. Really. Wow, that's very
that's very spicy. That's very hot stuff. Hot button ship.
All right, okay, so you're a soldier and it is
um sorry, I know this is not what you came
to talk about. I can talk about anything and everything.
(04:40):
I'm here. Great, So it's one in the morning. You
fire up. Hell, let let lose. What platform are you
playing on? By the way, PC? P a your PC gamer?
Oh wow, we already have so much in common. I
love PC gaming. Okay, hold on before I go on
go off on a tangent. Okay, but I'm also very
a d D, A d H, whatever acronym it is.
So I'm super random. So I'm if you give me
(05:02):
the space, I'm going to take you on tangents here
and I'm just just the way it goes. Well, guess what,
So am I like severely a d D. So this
is gonna be a nerve shattering hell ride for all
of the listeners. So, okay, it's one in the morning.
You fire up hell Let Loose? Is it called helllet Loose?
Is that what it? And you have a you have
team members you play with like like online. Yeah, yeah,
(05:25):
I decided to join a gaming clan, so it's actually
a community, a group of gamers who all play the
game hell Let Loose. And last night was the first
time we actually played as a squad. So it was
a bunch of folks all on the game together and
we were just talking, hanging out, getting to know each
other because we never really played together as a squad,
and uh, that was kind of cool. I've come to
(05:47):
a point in my life where one is, I don't
have a lot of time to game, so it's usually
late at night, kids are asleep and I'm stressed out
on my eye. I'm just play some games. And because
of the nature of my work, actually I find myself
of looking for camaraderie. Right Finding a team, a squad
is enticing to me and to hold the space with
other folks, um rather than just you know, playing with
(06:09):
a bunch of randoms. For me, this is what I
need and want right now. Are they people you know?
Or these are just people you met and then no
clue who they are. They're just all coming together like
on the internet. Yeah, the squad I was playing with
last night, there was a Nigerian dude, there was a
Russian player, and then there was like two guys from
like like Fort Lauderdale of course Florida men, this woman
(06:31):
from Phoenix, so where everyone is everywhere. Yeah, so this
is like one of those stories. It's like the Internet
is so beautiful, Like this is such a because most
of the stories, and we talked about this a lot
on this on this podcast, like the Internet is a
pretty ugly place, but that's like a beautiful part of
the Internet. I'm curious, like, so, how long did you
play for? I put in about forty minutes. That's it. Okay,
you were in and out. Yeah, forty five minutes. It
(06:52):
was short. It was a short game. And do any
of these people know that you're on a like a
nationally or internationally airing television show. Okay, interesting, you don't
bring that up in casual conversation. I don't bring it
up in casual conversation. I'm curious. I actually I've been
thinking about whether I bring it up or at what
point do I bring it up? But you should be like,
this reminds me of um that when we were shooting
(07:13):
the scene on my on my show recently. Just like that,
like like they know, it's like, no big deal. I
feel like the fun ways you guys ever seen the show?
What do you think about it? What do you think
about this actor on the show named Dallas called what if?
They're like, I fucking hate that guy. He's so annoying.
I'll be like, Oh, I gotta go. Then you're gonna
have to leave the clan. I'm leaving the clan. I'm
(07:33):
burning the clan down out of the clan. Okay, So
you've got three hours of sleep or something you're writing
on season three reservation talks, which we're gonna talk about
and something new and then you were like, I gotta
play some video games. The families asleep, you fire up
the PC so you didn't go to bed ntil like
what three in the morning or something? Yeah? Three? Then
(07:53):
are you normally a night owl? Uh? I don't want
to be about I am. Yeah. My wife and I
we have we have five kids, and they all stay
up late. We have a whole crew. We have the
whole range. We have a three year old and we
have a twenty one year old. Oh my god, that's
a crazy range. That's the range we were dealing with
the one year old. You gotta put the twenty one
year old to work, like babysitting and stuff, right, yeah, yeah,
(08:15):
let babysitting watching the kids and all that stuff. Wow,
our youngest is in night owls. Like We've been struggling
to try to get him out of sleep schedule so
that he falls asleep earlier, but he ends up staying
up later. So and then I get up and get
the kids up in the morning. So that's why I
think about the exact in the morning. I like that.
Now that's daring, I have to tell you, And I'm
bad at this. I'm not a morning person. I am
(08:37):
a night owl and and my wife definitely gets up. Oh,
we only have one kid, so it's way probably way simpler. Boy,
if I knew I had to get up and they
were like gonna be five, Well hold on, let's see,
you got a twenty one year old, so you don't
have to worry about twenty one year old. What's the
next age down from twenty one? We have three that
are have ten year old, a fourteen year old, and
a fifteen year old. Okay, so those are those are
(08:58):
the ones that got get up and getting get them
out of the door, right, Especially the teens. Teens need
a lot of sleep. There's a whole thing. It's like
we make like school really early for teenagers, but like
all the scientific studies show that they actually need a
lot more sleep, and we're like robbing them of their
precious hours. So but I don't know, but that's you know,
that's not your that's not your problem. You just gotta
get the kids up. Okay. So all right, what did
(09:20):
you have for breakfast? What was your what was you
how do you how do you like energize for the
day ahead? Well, I I love cooking for my family.
I'm not a good cook. But I love cooking. I
took my love language is cooking. I'm not a good cook,
but I like cooking. You haven't gotten good at it,
but you want to. You want to express yourself in
that way. That's beautiful. And also I make it a
(09:40):
thing is I cook for my kids before they go
to school every morning, so I make them food and
then I make their lunches. And so this morning I
just did something simple, just eggs, bacon, and then bagels.
But I toasted bagels with some cream. Yeah, so that's
why I had this morning. I haven't at dinner. That
sounds really good. Alright, So moving on from your night
owl and gaming and your breakfast situation. So you are
(10:05):
on this show Reservation Dogs on which is on effects.
You also write for it, right, yeah, like set the
show up, like talk about the show like for somebody
who's never seen it. And I started watching it because
I knew that we were going to talk. I have
been on my list and I'm like, oh, ship, like
that's got to move to the top of the queue.
And it is. It's super funny and super like heartfelt show.
But can you talk about a little bit like for
(10:26):
somebody who's never seen it like what the setup is. Yeah,
it is a coming of age story. It follows five
indigenous teens in Oklahoma, rural Oklahoma who go through the
trials and relations of being a teenager and also dealing
with the aspects of grief and having lost a friend
to tragedy. And it's a comedy, it's but it's really
(10:47):
like as you said, really um immersed in emotion and
a lot of feelings about how do we build community
and how how do we stay healthy as a community
when we're dealing with tragedy and hardships and guilt and
loss and all those other fields that come with life.
We just completed our second season this last fall and
we're now currently writing the third season. So and in
(11:09):
my character, I play spirit uh a k a William
knife Man and I'm a I'm a spirit. I'm a
spirit helper. I provide assistance and you could I use
assistance very loosely. And you will know why if you
watch the show. To one of the characters, of the
main characters, a young man who is trying to find
himself and understand what it means to be a man.
(11:30):
He's like, you know, fifteen, sixteen years old, and he
is still trying to figure out what what does it
mean to be a quote unquote warrior? Right? And like
I gotta say, like when when you first appear in
the show, I mean, listen, I'm gonna like, you know,
be a fanboy whatever. The character is a hilarious just
a hilarious vibe of a character I wasn't think I
was struck by. It's like it's kind of playing on
(11:52):
the trope of like I mean, you're seeing a lot
of like popular culture pop media, especially like not made
by indigenous people, Like where there's this character, like the
Native American character who is like the guide or is
going to tell you what's going on or like explain
like the truth about something. Your character is kind of
like it's hard, hard articulate, but it's kind of like
fucking with that idea. It's kind of like in a
(12:13):
way making fun of the idea but also like not
fully not embracing that part of it where there is
like knowledge there, there is like history, there is like
a message to impart. But like you're definitely having fun
with that trope. Is that was that like as you
conceptualize this character, part of it, Oh, absolutely, I think
that there's a whole meta narrative to the show, and
(12:36):
and and I guess an intention as writers to take
ownership of our stories, and that this show doesn't exist
in a vacuum very much. We are as writers, as
indigenous writers who folks, all of us who grew up
in the eighties and nineties were well aware of how
Native people have been displayed on camera on TV movies,
(13:00):
were well aware of the stories that are told about us.
And so this show very much is mindful of that
context of how stories have been told and maybe even
continue to be told, and we want to take ownership
of them and say, well funk that we get to
decide how we tell our own stories, you know, and
be subversive in that so very much. My character is
(13:22):
totally making fun at the stoic Native American on horseback
who's here to give wisdom about one's life. It is
very much a spoof of sorts, just as a background
like I got my training, I guess you could say,
as as a performer doing sketch comedy and improv comedy
with our comedy group. I co created the Fortune on
(13:44):
Ones and fortunately Ones are are all a part of
the creative team for Reservation Dogs. The showrunner Sterling hard
Joe how you know, he was one of our co
creators of the Comedy Group, So we were able to
bring in a lot of elements of the characters that
we've been working on over years into the show. In
spirit is very much ja amalgamation of these different characters
who are over the top, hyper masculine characters who have
(14:07):
a lot of insecurities when they're being performative. It's all there, right.
Just the delivery is so it's very modern. It's like
part like okay, it is that classic trope, right, and
then it's also like you're just talking. Like the vibe
of it is very modern, and that mixture is also
really interesting because it's like a very unexpected like you're like, no,
(14:28):
I'm just walking with you or whatever, like in the
like the first thing you're and it's like okay, Like
that character would not say it like that in the
popular conception of like what we think of that Yellow
Stones version of that would not have that character, right,
or the avatar version of that. We're gonna talk about avatar.
I actually I have an avatar conversation for you in
(14:49):
a minute, but you very second I want to stick
on the show. You said you grew up in the nineties, right,
I mean, I don't know how old you are, but
we're probably close in age. I'm thirty nine. Okay, you're
much much older than me. No, I'm kidding. That's you're
(15:12):
actually much younger than me, and that's very upsetting, uh
the U. But like you grew up in like the
Oliver Stone era, right, Like all Oliver Stone is like
one of these like directors who like over and over again,
is like using like indigenous people and as this like
kind of prop in a way. I mean, he's one
of many. But and maybe I don't know, maybe Oliver
Stone is like maybe he's doing it better than others.
(15:33):
But is a lot of the comedy in the show
are just like comedy you've done, like a reflection of that.
I just kind of happened to push back against those
like weirdly prevalent pop culture sort of ideas about who
you are and who people are. Yeah, I think really really, yeah,
it's it is. Um, it's a matter of giving the
(15:54):
opposite of what people expect. If I get up in
front of a crowd and say, okay, I'm now going
to share a Native American story. If this is your
average quote unquote American mainstream crowd here, I can literally
draw on the board what the images that come to
mind when I say that, because that's what they've grown
(16:15):
up with, that's what they learned every day, that's what
they It's been the story that's been told time after time. Right,
tell me what's on the board. What's the Native American story? Boom,
You're seeing tps, You're seeing Indians on horseback, You're seeing
eighteen eighties, right, You're seeing cowboys and Indians. What you see,
first thing is a story that exists in the past
as opposed to something that exists in the moment. Not
(16:38):
only that, you're also seeing a very oversimplified version of
what Native means. Because you know there's over five five hundred,
six hundred different distinct nations in this country. You know,
I'm in count in Canada, hundreds and hundreds of different
cultures and languages, and all you know is TPS. Right.
You might know wig moms, you might know something else.
But as a performer, I feel like as as me
(17:01):
as as a as a Dakota man might tribe, I'm Dakota,
like I have to be well aware of that when
I walk into the room, because in some ways people
are going to experience what I say, or it's a joke, whatever,
no matter what, there's to be a filter there that
it passes through. And I find comedy and jamming up
(17:22):
that filter as much as possible. We're like, well, what
the fund is I didn't expect this, you know, I
was not expecting this character, or this person or this story.
I was just thinking, like, it's also a tool, right,
because the fact that you are in control of like
how you can subvert the expectation is a really interesting
and I think maybe it exists to some degree. I mean, like,
(17:43):
you know, like I'm a I'm like a Jewish guy,
and I look very Jewish, and I'm sure people if
I were to get up on stage and start talking
about like my you know, cranky Jewish parents or something,
there'd be an immediate you know, not the same thing.
I'm not saying there's a parallel, but like you have
that whole set of tropes that people start to think of, right,
and that's what like your character on the show is
like subverting that in a way that is like so
(18:05):
unexpected that it's it's like immediately hilarious, but then you
also start to go, oh yeah, right, like I see
this character in one way everywhere, and that's actually not
the entirety or the extent of of the story. You know,
you mentioned Avatar, or I believe you mentioned Avatar. I
was looking at your Twitter. I found a tweet that
(18:25):
I think is quite interested. Is an old tweet pressiant,
very Pressian tweet, in my opinion, and I'm gonna read
it to you. I just want to get your thoughts
on this. Tell me how you're feeling. One of my
old tweets or is that someone else's. I think it's
one of your old tweets. I'm pretty sure this is yours.
There is a random tweet that I found, No one
of your old tweets. My most favorite recent Indian movie
(18:45):
has got to be Avatar. I'm really looking forward to
the return of Avatar, to the return of John Smith descendant.
This is a tweet that you did. Maybe like now
Avatar too is out? Okay, yeah it is. Have you
seen it? I have seen it. I actually just saw
it two days ago, really, and I didn't have to
(19:05):
pay for it because I'm in the writer's guild as
a writer be all the screenplays and then they send
the screeners And so I got a code where I
can go online and watch it streaming offline. That it's
for all the award seasons, right, so it's nominated for
Best Picture, right, Yes, So that's why I got it
to watch it, And I was like, Kelly, I don't
(19:26):
have to pay for it. I'll do it here. So
I watched it here at home. Um, I had to
watch in two cities that we can sit through it.
It's a long movie. There's a long movie. We started
watching at eleven o'clock at night, so like we we
have to stop. But I did see it. I will
say this, and this is like the context of that tweet. Hey,
I believe in your audience they're intelligent people. Only the
(19:49):
most intelligent folks listen to what Future podcast. So what
I'm about to say, maybe are They're already on the
same page. But for those handful of folks out there,
it is poke Honness in space like verbatim, it's the
same story. It's even the same acronyms, like the colonizers
come from a different planet to a new world to
(20:09):
discover and obtain natural resources. In the movie Avatar, it's
Jake Sully j s and Pocahona's John Smith j s
that Jake Sully John Smith gets saved, encounters the Princess
Pocahona Materi. She saves him like she throws her body. No,
don't kill him like it's the same story. It's but pocahonest.
(20:32):
It's literally pokehon on purpose, right. That is the part
of it is that I think it is on purpose,
but not for the same on purpose that you see
reservation dogs having an Indian on horseback like in my character.
And I'm being very intentional where we are reclaiming that
space and very mindful of the context of the images
that we're putting in front of an audience and using
(20:54):
that to subvert the conversation to uplift communities who have
been marginalized, who are have been on the margins, and
uplift their voices to take over that space. Avatar didn't
do that. It's just just telling you another Wild Wild
West show story. And at the core root of it,
it's another white savior story where the white man becomes
(21:15):
Indian and then becomes more Indian than the Indians, and
at the very end, he's saying, this is our land,
and everyone's like, yes, thank you white Man for becoming
one of us and showing us the way to save
our people. It's ridiculous, it's crazy, it's nuts. But also
I enjoyed the movie because it's entertainment. So I'm like,
(21:36):
I'm flying on dragons. I see it like like that part,
I'm like, I can't ignore the fact that this is
still entertaining even though highly problematic, and I have a
lot of conflict with that. You can make a really
fun movie and that's also like reductive in a bunch
of ways. And in fact, like probably some of the
most fun movies and we go back and look at
them are full of ship like wow, that's funking offensive
(21:59):
or stupid or like really shortsighted or reductive. Absolutely. You
know how many movies now, like you go back and
how many like gay jokes are queer folks or trans
folks with the butt of the joke that back in
the tail, like, oh, that was funny, but now you're
like that doesn't age. Well. No. I was watching The
Gilmore Girls a couple of years ago, which I love.
(22:20):
By the way, you know, these two women are the
main characters and they're very progressive or whatever, and like
one of the characters like that Bag is gay or whatever,
like and I'm like, this is from two thousand, three
years to four whatever, and I'm like, yeah, like that
would not fly. I mean that's a small thing. But
you know it's weird how just casual it was. It's
so interesting. I mean, so this is like stuff I
(22:40):
talked about with my parents because like their perspective is
so I'm a little bit more aware than they are,
but like you know, sometimes I'll be explaining it. It's
like you're trying to explain like the systemic stuff. It's
like they love this thing and you're like, well, let
me explain how this is actually really fucked up, and
like it's very hard. It's hard to like to pull
back to all those different layers and see how we've
(23:03):
just built the system of like a type of storytelling
like Avatar is a perfect example. And that's why The
Reservation Dogs is such an interesting new type of show.
And I'm gonna be very honest, like that's a world
I don't feel like I know anything about. I don't
know what's up with, Like how what's happening on reservations.
I don't really know the modern story of indigenous people
in this country, Like we know the moments where it's
(23:25):
like the Dakota Access pipeline or like these like flashpoints
or whatever, or when people are critical something like Avatar
and people are talking about it. But like I think,
what's so fascinating about the show and so good about
it is it just is like it's like a modern story.
It pulls on all that stuff and and even in
some way has fun with it, like your character, but
(23:45):
it's also like resonating a lot of that history, right,
but not like the Pocahona story. It is something new,
and like there's not that much new right that we're
seeing in popular culture. Like the character name thing in
Avatar is kind of sucking me up, Like I've never
made that connection where it's literally the same initials and
the same setup, and like I haven't seen the new one.
(24:09):
Maybe they progress it like oh Avatary, No, No, it's
it's it's just this problematic. The thing is all right,
this is but it is an entertaining movie. James Cameron
knows how to make a blockbuster and the technology is amazing,
Like you are immersed in the world. It is fantastic
be swimming with alien whales. That happens. Okay, yeah, But
(24:34):
the issue that I have and a lot of folks
have brought up, is that it's not telling anything new,
like you said, it is it is. How do I
explain it? It's like it is the same story. Colin
are just come and they do bad things, and then
the original people's the indigenous people suffer and die and
(24:55):
because they are not able to adapt quote unquote is
and it's all from a West perspective. It's because they
weren't able to adapt, they died. But there's one character
is the white guy who becomes native. He knows how
to adapt because he lives in both worlds, and he's
the savior. Here's the centerpiece of the story. And like
movies do not exist in a vacuum. Everything is context.
(25:17):
Whether you're going and you want to zone out, yes,
there's some movies, zombie movies where you can zone out.
But hey, also, zombie movies were created with a socially
conscious theme at the very root of it. I mean,
the first zombie movies were conversations about race and racism
in the United States and and so movies have a
context in them, and with that context, you're saying something
(25:38):
and the fact that you're telling another story about Indigenous
people in a way that's that sucks what happened to
them in the past. Yeah, what it does is it
really limits the ability for Indigenous voices now to say
we're existing now and we have stories we're telling now. Well,
it's crazy how hard coded it is in like the
people who are making it too right again, I have
(26:00):
seen the new one. I'm sure there are elements he had.
For sure. I saw the original and their elements who
were like, wow, that's thrilling. Like you said, like James
Cameron knows how to make a blockbuster, But like, it's
very likely James Cameron was not thinking I mean, who knows.
Maybe he's like totally nefarious and was like like, I'm
gonna just reuse this story and play on all these
tropes because it's really effective. But probably more likely he
(26:20):
kind of was like I'm telling this. Maybe he even
thought he was being like, I'm going to re contextualize
the story so that a modern audience understands the harm
we've done the white man has done too Indigenous people
or whatever. Meanwhile, he's just kind of like telling the
White Savior story version of that story. But it is
kind of hard coded in people that they can't see
(26:42):
past it. You know. It's like I think all the
time about J. K. Rowling, and I mean, it's got
lots of problems, but I don't know how if I
familiar are at the Harry Potter universe, but there's like
a whole sub group of characters they run the banks
and Harry Potter. They have like big noses and they're
like goblins and they're like fucking crazy Jewish stereotypes like
(27:06):
bad and like she'd be like, no, these are just
characters I created or whatever, Like I didn't that's not
what I was doing. And it's like no, like you
just took this like trope that exists and you re
contextualized it or you thought you not even she didn't
think about it. But it's like it's there, Like this
thing is there, And that's kind of like, again, I'm
not saying there's a direct parallel, but it is that
(27:28):
idea that there's a certain type of creator that creates
these massive properties that are like informing pop culture and
they're replaying these ideas that are like ancient ideas in
a way, like really kind of stuck in this weird
you know mode, my buddy, But we were just talking
about Harry Potter and you brought it up and she
(27:49):
was like, you know, what's fucked up about it? He's
like I was just thinking about it, and you know,
Harry Potter is so fucking classist. He's like, look, everyone
made fun Harry Potter because he was poor and his
friend Ron Weasley, they were seen as the poor kids.
But Harry Potter is a trust fund kid. He has
a fucking bankful of money from his parents. Oh yeah, see.
(28:12):
I started reading because like my daughter got interested in.
I'm like, yeah, we'll read the books. I've never read
it because I always hated Harry Potter as a character
because I'm like, oh, he's like everybody's like, oh, he's
important and he's special and he's been taking care of
his whole life. And he came to Hogwarts and everybody's like,
oh you're Harry Potter, we love you. And it's like
I'm like, what's the struggle here? Like, like, dude, like
has been protected by all of these powerful wizards because
(28:34):
he's like the chosen one and like I'm supposed to
feel what like, yeah, he had like some bad foster
parents for a few years, like and now he's a
celebrity anyhow, But just in the weeds, perhaps on the
Harry Potter totally in the weeds, like my buddy went
down the rabbit hole, where I was like, I don't
know about that. He's Ron Weasley exactly. Ron Weasley seen
as poor, but his dad worked for the fucking ministry
(28:56):
and his dad was like a g man. His dad
was like part of the up level. So it's a
good point. I mean, that's only one. That's just one
of the many problematic things about Harry Potter. You is
fucking down the line. The Goblin ship is real, though,
I mean, like if you watch the movies I watched.
When I watched the first movie, I was like, this
is It's like George Lucas. He had all these characters
(29:17):
in the fucking New Star Wars movies that are like, oh,
that's like a crazy Asian stereotype. This is a crazy
Jewish stereotype. It's very much like the James Cameron thing
where he clearly is internalized. This ship doesn't even realize
it and then spits it back out. It's like you
feel like you're smart because you found parallels in real life,
but you're not given actually in depth commentary on it.
You're just replicating it anyhow. So like that's why I
(29:50):
hope everybody who's listening to watches the show, because it
is like such a different conversation about indigenous people in
this country, like their experience. I got totally sucked into it.
I think it's like fascinating. I'll just say, like that
close it out. So Sterling Hard as a show runner,
he's from Oklahoma, is very intentional across the board about
(30:11):
how he tells a story. First and foremost, the entire
show is filmed in Oklahoma on a reservation in native community.
They hire as many Native people on the crew behind
the camera just as much as the folks who are
writing it and in front of the camera. But then also,
we don't get preachy. We don't like to be preachy.
We don't like to be saying that this is this
is our commentary and society. It's like, really, what is
(30:34):
the experience of these kids, Like, let's get down to
this experience of what it means to be a Native kid.
In America and rural Oklahoma and let the fields flow
from there. So I really do hope folks check it out.
There is a kind of segue here that I wanted
to get into a little bit, which is I mentioned
before you're an activist and an organizer. Your father, Tom B. K.
(30:56):
Gold Tooth was, And I've done I've done my research.
I'm not saying like I've been reading up on this
for years, but I did some research. He was a
founder of the Indigenous Environmental Network. He's a well known
figure in the in the activism space. And the Avatary
is like they're not just sorry not to drop barrels,
like like there's like James Cameron's also like one of
his things is he's trying to be like, you know,
(31:17):
save the planet or protect you know, it's like this
whole thing about like protecting the ecosystem and being respectful
of you know, Mother Earth and all this, but you're
actually out there doing real world work where because we're
actually fucking up the real planet we live on, not
what is the what Pandora is that the name of
the planet Avatar. That's a that's a computer generated plan.
(31:39):
You can FuG it up really all you want. But
in the real world, we're we're actually destroying like the
planet we live on, while also totally violating communities that
have been here far longer than the people who are
trying to put a oil pipeline or whatever through their land.
And I've listened to some podcasts with you, I've read
some stuff, and and you talk a lot about joy
(32:00):
and the kind of joy of activism and organizing and
how you have to kind of go into that stuff
in a way where it isn't just about doom and gloom.
It is like about like seeing the possibilities and the potential,
but like also not to be a downer on this ship,
but like it feels like the potential and the possibilities
are getting like crushed to every at every angle. So
(32:23):
tell me about like the experience of trying to kind
of get people working towards a better tomorrow, like a
better version of this planet we live on in the
face of governments and corporations and and just a general
sense of like the apathy from a lot of the people,
like how do you do that? And and and and
(32:44):
are you still doing it? Do you feel like that's
still a big part of like what you do right now?
It's a good that's a good question. Sorry, that's a
kind of wide ranging. Yeah, I struggle with it. That's
the thing is, I'm not here to be the cheerleader.
Richard Simmons like, yeah, it's gonna be okay, you guys,
(33:04):
Let's just focus on the good stuff now, Like, Hey,
people have a right to be angry. People have a
right to be afraid and anxious and have an anxiety.
People have a right to have rage. And I'm not
here to police that. But I am here as an
individual too in my own journey try not to get
(33:24):
stuck in the muck that is climate anxiety. Like, man,
it's been hard. I got burnt out like so many times,
especially the past few years. And I on a personal level,
like I'm transitioning out of my work as an organizer
and going into this new realm as a writer, as
a performer. And a part of that is because I, yeah,
I burnt out. I struggled my own mental well being,
(33:48):
because it's the writings on the wall in many ways
right where the path that we're on, and I do
feel at times like I don't know if we have
what it takes collectively as the human race to steer
the ship in the other direction where it needs to go.
But with that being set, like I refuse to give
(34:09):
into that, I still actively choose to find joy in
the work that I do in the world I am,
and I also put joy into what I want to
build and and not to like beat the horse, the
dead horse over the head or whatever the euphemism is.
Like going back to Avatar and the issues I have
with this all it's all tied to down, it connected,
(34:29):
it's all connected. But look, Avatar to made two billion dollars, right,
two billion dollars? How much? And I don't know how
much money it costs them to make it, like I
imagine at least, but still a lot of money. Let's say,
even if you start with two hundred million dollars, you
have two hundred million dollars to build a world of future,
(34:52):
an entire universe where we did not sunk up the planet,
where we did not kill indigenous people's where we are.
Actually you live in a life that's far different than this,
and yet you choose this story like I think that's
where I want to put my energy into. And as
an organizer and as a storyteller is I want to
(35:14):
actively put my energy into radically imagining a future in
which I can exist on my own terms and that
my people in my community can exist on our own
terms in a way that's in line with our principles
as Native people's, as Dakota people's, but um in line
with our principles just being good relatives to each other.
(35:35):
So that's where I find my passion, That's where I
find my drive to encourage myself but to also embolden
others to radically imagine that future. Yeah, I mean, I
mean it's like, actually, when you put it that way,
like to your point about Avatar, if you can choose
to tell a story and you can tell a story
to to a larger group of people that does imagine that.
(35:59):
It's like, again, I don't want to take away anything
from activists and organizers, but you know what, existing pop
culture is a powerful tool, right, Like what exists in
our shared sort of storytelling is really powerful. And you're
talking about like, can we make the two billion dollar
movie that imagines like the better version or the different
(36:20):
version or tells the different story, which I think is
maybe we haven't gotten there yet, but we could get there,
and there aren't maybe enough people trying. Our world is
built on stories. Our entire existence, our society is nothing
but stories in myth, right, what's currency? Currency is nothing
but a story that we all agree upon and say
(36:41):
this has value, These things have value. What is the
concept of gender? You know? These are all stories and
it is the meta narrative, those subliminal messages that are
implanted in society that's keeping the current structure that is
oppressing many for the benefit of a few. That really
(37:02):
is the problem. And so like by countering those messages
by by chipping away at the story, by saying, hey, actually, yeah,
those what are the goblins of hogwarts? Like you may
not understand it, but but folks who have been characterized
in that way, they get what that's started trying to say, Yeah,
we have to be better, we have to try better.
(37:23):
And I'm not saying you have to water things on
and I don't. And also I'm not a big fan
of quote unquote WoT culture. I want to allow ourselves
to tell stories as we see fit and we don't
have to like give into a super politicized narratives. But
the core story we're trying to tell can be different. God,
I mean, you've got me think about all this stuff.
(37:43):
We're probably gotta wrap up, and that's a great place
to like kind of end on. But I think that
idea of changing the story, it is so true what
you just said, like that that we are just living
story to story and if we can tell a different one,
if we can get the next generation to like hear
a different and it can make a huge difference. Like
that's an awesome thought. Actually, like talking about like being optimistic,
(38:05):
I think that's the most optimistic idea in the world.
And you're working on it right now, Like you're doing
it right now, like you're coming off three hours of
sleep and but working on like writing projects that could
be you know, some one of those stories or or
these stories. So, Dallas, I gotta say, this has been
an amazing conversation, Like a super fucking interesting conversation. I
really appreciate you coming on and talking about all this
(38:28):
stuff before we go. Anything you want to plug like, um,
I mean obviously we talked about a lot of your projects,
but anything you know the standard follow me on social
media It's Dallas gold Tooth across the map TikTok Instagram Twitter, Facebook. Yeah,
I'm on TikTok dancing or you dancing dances. I've been
known to uh, to be the uncle on TikTok that
(38:50):
does some dances. And yeah, folks can follow me and
check me out, you know. In the season three I
think I expected to come out for Reservation Dogs. Sometimes
this follow tone and um, pretty stoked for all of it.
I'm so thankful for for you having me on the show.
And uh, yeah it's been it's been pretty awesome. Yeah,
(39:11):
this is awesome. Thanks so much. Well, that is our
show for this week, and what a show, my goodness,
so many topics, so many thought provoking subjects. I'm I'm provoked,
(39:32):
both on a thought level and also on a more
visceral kind of body level, which is interesting. But anyhow,
will be back next week with more what future, and
as always, I wish you and your family the very best.
Hey, and welcome to what Future. I'm your host, Joshua
to Pulsky. Nothing's on my mind. My mind is absolutely
vacant at this point. I'm so drained of ideas, I'm
so drained of inspiration. Right now, I'm a husk. I'm
a shell of a person. Like I'm walking around. It
looks like a person. I'm talking, I'm doing things, and
(00:39):
yet inside there's just nothing. It's empty, It's hollow in here,
and I'm just very tired. You know, it's the end
of January. I try to do dry January. I failed
Dry January became wet January, and I have to say
it makes me a lot happier to drink. And you know,
(00:59):
maybe that is a bad sign. Maybe that's maybe that
means there's something wrong with me. But there's something wrong
with everybody. I mean, it's not just me. It's all
people have a problem, and some people fill that problem
up with vodka, and some people, you know, I don't
know what other people do, because I'm I'm not going
to make assumptions about humanity or not. Maybe I'll make
(01:21):
assumptions about humanity, just not individual people that make up humanity. Anyhow,
this has nothing to do with the fantastic guests that
we have on the show today, who hopefully, if he
is not already a household name, he should become a
household name. Of course I'm talking about and you don't
know what I say, of course, like you know who
exactly who I'm talking about, but it could be literally anybody.
(01:42):
But I'm talking about fascinating and hilarious man named Dallas
gold Tooth. You may have seen his work on the
show Reservation Dogs. And he's here with me now. So
(02:10):
I'm gonna say a few things about you. You're an actor,
is that true? I am in some In some circles,
they would say yes, a writer, is that correct? Yes,
that is correct, an activist, an organizer? True or false?
I would say true? Okay, co founder of comedy group. Yes, okay,
Wow that was intense. I felt that. Hold on, But
(02:31):
now before we get into all the interesting stuff. How
much sleep did you get last night? How many hours
did you got? I got two and a half hours
of sleep? Yes? Why why would you only sleep for
three hours? Because I I am horrible at time management,
I've always been, and I'm a procrastinator and I am
(02:54):
working on a draft for season three of Reservation Dogs,
which I'm a writer on, and so I have to
work on a draft, had to turn an outline for
another show that I'm pitching with the buddy of mine
and we're trying to get into development. And in between
those two projects which I needed to get done, I
decided to play some video games. And you know a
good procrastinator. Wait, so um, yeah, it was a late night. Okay, okay,
(03:18):
this opens up a lot of the avenues of question,
but I'm gonna start with the thing that I'm most
interested at this moment is what game were you playing?
And at what time were you playing? At as like
one in the morning, I was playing a game called
hell Let Loose. It was World War two first person
shooter game, hell Let Loose. I've I've never heard of
this game. This is a new game? Is it an
(03:40):
old game? It's like about three years old hell Let Loose.
I'm looking. I'm looking at this right now hard on. Yeah,
because I'm like, I'm a huge gamer. So how interesting.
It's a first person shoot. It's one of those like
it's in the realm of like realistic meaning it one shot,
one kill thing. It's a tactical game. You have to
work with your squad. Actually a chief objective it is.
(04:00):
I like it the fact that it's like you have
to communicate with people, so you can't just go and
be like I'm just gonna shoot click click click click.
You actually have to work as a squad, as a team.
So this is good. So this is a game, like,
you're a soldier, it's World War two? Is that easy?
World War two? You are what signed you want? Hold on,
let's make sure this is your wich? Side are you
(04:20):
fighting for in this game? It's a multiple really, you
could be you could be a Nazi and you can
be American, you can be rushing. Really. Wow, that's very
that's very spicy. That's very hot stuff. Hot button ship.
All right, okay, so you're a soldier and it is
um sorry, I know this is not what you came
to talk about. I can talk about anything and everything.
(04:40):
I'm here. Great, So it's one in the morning. You
fire up. Hell, let let lose. What platform are you
playing on? By the way, PC? P a your PC gamer?
Oh wow, we already have so much in common. I
love PC gaming. Okay, hold on before I go on
go off on a tangent. Okay, but I'm also very
a d D, A d H, whatever acronym it is.
So I'm super random. So I'm if you give me
(05:02):
the space, I'm going to take you on tangents here
and I'm just just the way it goes. Well, guess what,
So am I like severely a d D. So this
is gonna be a nerve shattering hell ride for all
of the listeners. So, okay, it's one in the morning.
You fire up hell Let Loose? Is it called helllet Loose?
Is that what it? And you have a you have
team members you play with like like online. Yeah, yeah,
(05:25):
I decided to join a gaming clan, so it's actually
a community, a group of gamers who all play the
game hell Let Loose. And last night was the first
time we actually played as a squad. So it was
a bunch of folks all on the game together and
we were just talking, hanging out, getting to know each
other because we never really played together as a squad,
and uh, that was kind of cool. I've come to
(05:47):
a point in my life where one is, I don't
have a lot of time to game, so it's usually
late at night, kids are asleep and I'm stressed out
on my eye. I'm just play some games. And because
of the nature of my work, actually I find myself
of looking for camaraderie. Right Finding a team, a squad
is enticing to me and to hold the space with
other folks, um rather than just you know, playing with
(06:09):
a bunch of randoms. For me, this is what I
need and want right now. Are they people you know?
Or these are just people you met and then no
clue who they are. They're just all coming together like
on the internet. Yeah, the squad I was playing with
last night, there was a Nigerian dude, there was a
Russian player, and then there was like two guys from
like like Fort Lauderdale of course Florida men, this woman
(06:31):
from Phoenix, so where everyone is everywhere. Yeah, so this
is like one of those stories. It's like the Internet
is so beautiful, Like this is such a because most
of the stories, and we talked about this a lot
on this on this podcast, like the Internet is a
pretty ugly place, but that's like a beautiful part of
the Internet. I'm curious, like, so, how long did you
play for? I put in about forty minutes. That's it. Okay,
you were in and out. Yeah, forty five minutes. It
(06:52):
was short. It was a short game. And do any
of these people know that you're on a like a
nationally or internationally airing television show. Okay, interesting, you don't
bring that up in casual conversation. I don't bring it
up in casual conversation. I'm curious. I actually I've been
thinking about whether I bring it up or at what
point do I bring it up? But you should be like,
this reminds me of um that when we were shooting
(07:13):
the scene on my on my show recently. Just like that,
like like they know, it's like, no big deal. I
feel like the fun ways you guys ever seen the show?
What do you think about it? What do you think
about this actor on the show named Dallas called what if?
They're like, I fucking hate that guy. He's so annoying.
I'll be like, Oh, I gotta go. Then you're gonna
have to leave the clan. I'm leaving the clan. I'm
(07:33):
burning the clan down out of the clan. Okay, So
you've got three hours of sleep or something you're writing
on season three reservation talks, which we're gonna talk about
and something new and then you were like, I gotta
play some video games. The families asleep, you fire up
the PC so you didn't go to bed ntil like
what three in the morning or something? Yeah? Three? Then
(07:53):
are you normally a night owl? Uh? I don't want
to be about I am. Yeah. My wife and I
we have we have five kids, and they all stay
up late. We have a whole crew. We have the
whole range. We have a three year old and we
have a twenty one year old. Oh my god, that's
a crazy range. That's the range we were dealing with
the one year old. You gotta put the twenty one
year old to work, like babysitting and stuff, right, yeah, yeah,
(08:15):
let babysitting watching the kids and all that stuff. Wow,
our youngest is in night owls. Like We've been struggling
to try to get him out of sleep schedule so
that he falls asleep earlier, but he ends up staying
up later. So and then I get up and get
the kids up in the morning. So that's why I
think about the exact in the morning. I like that.
Now that's daring, I have to tell you, And I'm
bad at this. I'm not a morning person. I am
(08:37):
a night owl and and my wife definitely gets up. Oh,
we only have one kid, so it's way probably way simpler. Boy,
if I knew I had to get up and they
were like gonna be five, Well hold on, let's see,
you got a twenty one year old, so you don't
have to worry about twenty one year old. What's the
next age down from twenty one? We have three that
are have ten year old, a fourteen year old, and
a fifteen year old. Okay, so those are those are
(08:58):
the ones that got get up and getting get them
out of the door, right, Especially the teens. Teens need
a lot of sleep. There's a whole thing. It's like
we make like school really early for teenagers, but like
all the scientific studies show that they actually need a
lot more sleep, and we're like robbing them of their
precious hours. So but I don't know, but that's you know,
that's not your that's not your problem. You just gotta
get the kids up. Okay. So all right, what did
(09:20):
you have for breakfast? What was your what was you
how do you how do you like energize for the
day ahead? Well, I I love cooking for my family.
I'm not a good cook. But I love cooking. I
took my love language is cooking. I'm not a good cook,
but I like cooking. You haven't gotten good at it,
but you want to. You want to express yourself in
that way. That's beautiful. And also I make it a
(09:40):
thing is I cook for my kids before they go
to school every morning, so I make them food and
then I make their lunches. And so this morning I
just did something simple, just eggs, bacon, and then bagels.
But I toasted bagels with some cream. Yeah, so that's
why I had this morning. I haven't at dinner. That
sounds really good. Alright, So moving on from your night
owl and gaming and your breakfast situation. So you are
(10:05):
on this show Reservation Dogs on which is on effects.
You also write for it, right, yeah, like set the
show up, like talk about the show like for somebody
who's never seen it. And I started watching it because
I knew that we were going to talk. I have
been on my list and I'm like, oh, ship, like
that's got to move to the top of the queue.
And it is. It's super funny and super like heartfelt show.
But can you talk about a little bit like for
(10:26):
somebody who's never seen it like what the setup is. Yeah,
it is a coming of age story. It follows five
indigenous teens in Oklahoma, rural Oklahoma who go through the
trials and relations of being a teenager and also dealing
with the aspects of grief and having lost a friend
to tragedy. And it's a comedy, it's but it's really
(10:47):
like as you said, really um immersed in emotion and
a lot of feelings about how do we build community
and how how do we stay healthy as a community
when we're dealing with tragedy and hardships and guilt and
loss and all those other fields that come with life.
We just completed our second season this last fall and
we're now currently writing the third season. So and in
(11:09):
my character, I play spirit uh a k a William
knife Man and I'm a I'm a spirit. I'm a
spirit helper. I provide assistance and you could I use
assistance very loosely. And you will know why if you
watch the show. To one of the characters, of the
main characters, a young man who is trying to find
himself and understand what it means to be a man.
(11:30):
He's like, you know, fifteen, sixteen years old, and he
is still trying to figure out what what does it
mean to be a quote unquote warrior? Right? And like
I gotta say, like when when you first appear in
the show, I mean, listen, I'm gonna like, you know,
be a fanboy whatever. The character is a hilarious just
a hilarious vibe of a character I wasn't think I
was struck by. It's like it's kind of playing on
(11:52):
the trope of like I mean, you're seeing a lot
of like popular culture pop media, especially like not made
by indigenous people, Like where there's this character, like the
Native American character who is like the guide or is
going to tell you what's going on or like explain
like the truth about something. Your character is kind of
like it's hard, hard articulate, but it's kind of like
fucking with that idea. It's kind of like in a
(12:13):
way making fun of the idea but also like not
fully not embracing that part of it where there is
like knowledge there, there is like history, there is like
a message to impart. But like you're definitely having fun
with that trope. Is that was that like as you
conceptualize this character, part of it, Oh, absolutely, I think
that there's a whole meta narrative to the show, and
(12:36):
and and I guess an intention as writers to take
ownership of our stories, and that this show doesn't exist
in a vacuum very much. We are as writers, as
indigenous writers who folks, all of us who grew up
in the eighties and nineties were well aware of how
Native people have been displayed on camera on TV movies,
(13:00):
were well aware of the stories that are told about us.
And so this show very much is mindful of that
context of how stories have been told and maybe even
continue to be told, and we want to take ownership
of them and say, well funk that we get to
decide how we tell our own stories, you know, and
be subversive in that so very much. My character is
(13:22):
totally making fun at the stoic Native American on horseback
who's here to give wisdom about one's life. It is
very much a spoof of sorts, just as a background
like I got my training, I guess you could say,
as as a performer doing sketch comedy and improv comedy
with our comedy group. I co created the Fortune on
(13:44):
Ones and fortunately Ones are are all a part of
the creative team for Reservation Dogs. The showrunner Sterling hard
Joe how you know, he was one of our co
creators of the Comedy Group, So we were able to
bring in a lot of elements of the characters that
we've been working on over years into the show. In
spirit is very much ja amalgamation of these different characters
who are over the top, hyper masculine characters who have
(14:07):
a lot of insecurities when they're being performative. It's all there, right.
Just the delivery is so it's very modern. It's like
part like okay, it is that classic trope, right, and
then it's also like you're just talking. Like the vibe
of it is very modern, and that mixture is also
really interesting because it's like a very unexpected like you're like, no,
(14:28):
I'm just walking with you or whatever, like in the
like the first thing you're and it's like okay, Like
that character would not say it like that in the
popular conception of like what we think of that Yellow
Stones version of that would not have that character, right,
or the avatar version of that. We're gonna talk about avatar.
I actually I have an avatar conversation for you in
(14:49):
a minute, but you very second I want to stick
on the show. You said you grew up in the nineties, right,
I mean, I don't know how old you are, but
we're probably close in age. I'm thirty nine. Okay, you're
much much older than me. No, I'm kidding. That's you're
(15:12):
actually much younger than me, and that's very upsetting, uh
the U. But like you grew up in like the
Oliver Stone era, right, Like all Oliver Stone is like
one of these like directors who like over and over again,
is like using like indigenous people and as this like
kind of prop in a way. I mean, he's one
of many. But and maybe I don't know, maybe Oliver
Stone is like maybe he's doing it better than others.
(15:33):
But is a lot of the comedy in the show
are just like comedy you've done, like a reflection of that.
I just kind of happened to push back against those
like weirdly prevalent pop culture sort of ideas about who
you are and who people are. Yeah, I think really really, yeah,
it's it is. Um, it's a matter of giving the
(15:54):
opposite of what people expect. If I get up in
front of a crowd and say, okay, I'm now going
to share a Native American story. If this is your
average quote unquote American mainstream crowd here, I can literally
draw on the board what the images that come to
mind when I say that, because that's what they've grown
(16:15):
up with, that's what they learned every day, that's what
they It's been the story that's been told time after time. Right,
tell me what's on the board. What's the Native American story? Boom,
You're seeing tps, You're seeing Indians on horseback, You're seeing
eighteen eighties, right, You're seeing cowboys and Indians. What you see,
first thing is a story that exists in the past
as opposed to something that exists in the moment. Not
(16:38):
only that, you're also seeing a very oversimplified version of
what Native means. Because you know there's over five five hundred,
six hundred different distinct nations in this country. You know,
I'm in count in Canada, hundreds and hundreds of different
cultures and languages, and all you know is TPS. Right.
You might know wig moms, you might know something else.
But as a performer, I feel like as as me
(17:01):
as as a as a Dakota man might tribe, I'm Dakota,
like I have to be well aware of that when
I walk into the room, because in some ways people
are going to experience what I say, or it's a joke, whatever,
no matter what, there's to be a filter there that
it passes through. And I find comedy and jamming up
(17:22):
that filter as much as possible. We're like, well, what
the fund is I didn't expect this, you know, I
was not expecting this character, or this person or this story.
I was just thinking, like, it's also a tool, right,
because the fact that you are in control of like
how you can subvert the expectation is a really interesting
and I think maybe it exists to some degree. I mean, like,
(17:43):
you know, like I'm a I'm like a Jewish guy,
and I look very Jewish, and I'm sure people if
I were to get up on stage and start talking
about like my you know, cranky Jewish parents or something,
there'd be an immediate you know, not the same thing.
I'm not saying there's a parallel, but like you have
that whole set of tropes that people start to think of, right,
and that's what like your character on the show is
like subverting that in a way that is like so
(18:05):
unexpected that it's it's like immediately hilarious, but then you
also start to go, oh yeah, right, like I see
this character in one way everywhere, and that's actually not
the entirety or the extent of of the story. You know,
you mentioned Avatar, or I believe you mentioned Avatar. I
was looking at your Twitter. I found a tweet that
(18:25):
I think is quite interested. Is an old tweet pressiant,
very Pressian tweet, in my opinion, and I'm gonna read
it to you. I just want to get your thoughts
on this. Tell me how you're feeling. One of my
old tweets or is that someone else's. I think it's
one of your old tweets. I'm pretty sure this is yours.
There is a random tweet that I found, No one
of your old tweets. My most favorite recent Indian movie
(18:45):
has got to be Avatar. I'm really looking forward to
the return of Avatar, to the return of John Smith descendant.
This is a tweet that you did. Maybe like now
Avatar too is out? Okay, yeah it is. Have you
seen it? I have seen it. I actually just saw
it two days ago, really, and I didn't have to
(19:05):
pay for it because I'm in the writer's guild as
a writer be all the screenplays and then they send
the screeners And so I got a code where I
can go online and watch it streaming offline. That it's
for all the award seasons, right, so it's nominated for
Best Picture, right, Yes, So that's why I got it
to watch it, And I was like, Kelly, I don't
(19:26):
have to pay for it. I'll do it here. So
I watched it here at home. Um, I had to
watch in two cities that we can sit through it.
It's a long movie. There's a long movie. We started
watching at eleven o'clock at night, so like we we
have to stop. But I did see it. I will
say this, and this is like the context of that tweet. Hey,
I believe in your audience they're intelligent people. Only the
(19:49):
most intelligent folks listen to what Future podcast. So what
I'm about to say, maybe are They're already on the
same page. But for those handful of folks out there,
it is poke Honness in space like verbatim, it's the
same story. It's even the same acronyms, like the colonizers
come from a different planet to a new world to
(20:09):
discover and obtain natural resources. In the movie Avatar, it's
Jake Sully j s and Pocahona's John Smith j s
that Jake Sully John Smith gets saved, encounters the Princess
Pocahona Materi. She saves him like she throws her body. No,
don't kill him like it's the same story. It's but pocahonest.
(20:32):
It's literally pokehon on purpose, right. That is the part
of it is that I think it is on purpose,
but not for the same on purpose that you see
reservation dogs having an Indian on horseback like in my character.
And I'm being very intentional where we are reclaiming that
space and very mindful of the context of the images
that we're putting in front of an audience and using
(20:54):
that to subvert the conversation to uplift communities who have
been marginalized, who are have been on the margins, and
uplift their voices to take over that space. Avatar didn't
do that. It's just just telling you another Wild Wild
West show story. And at the core root of it,
it's another white savior story where the white man becomes
(21:15):
Indian and then becomes more Indian than the Indians, and
at the very end, he's saying, this is our land,
and everyone's like, yes, thank you white Man for becoming
one of us and showing us the way to save
our people. It's ridiculous, it's crazy, it's nuts. But also
I enjoyed the movie because it's entertainment. So I'm like,
(21:36):
I'm flying on dragons. I see it like like that part,
I'm like, I can't ignore the fact that this is
still entertaining even though highly problematic, and I have a
lot of conflict with that. You can make a really
fun movie and that's also like reductive in a bunch
of ways. And in fact, like probably some of the
most fun movies and we go back and look at
them are full of ship like wow, that's funking offensive
(21:59):
or stupid or like really shortsighted or reductive. Absolutely. You
know how many movies now, like you go back and
how many like gay jokes are queer folks or trans
folks with the butt of the joke that back in
the tail, like, oh, that was funny, but now you're
like that doesn't age. Well. No. I was watching The
Gilmore Girls a couple of years ago, which I love.
(22:20):
By the way, you know, these two women are the
main characters and they're very progressive or whatever, and like
one of the characters like that Bag is gay or whatever,
like and I'm like, this is from two thousand, three
years to four whatever, and I'm like, yeah, like that
would not fly. I mean that's a small thing. But
you know it's weird how just casual it was. It's
so interesting. I mean, so this is like stuff I
(22:40):
talked about with my parents because like their perspective is
so I'm a little bit more aware than they are,
but like you know, sometimes I'll be explaining it. It's
like you're trying to explain like the systemic stuff. It's
like they love this thing and you're like, well, let
me explain how this is actually really fucked up, and
like it's very hard. It's hard to like to pull
back to all those different layers and see how we've
(23:03):
just built the system of like a type of storytelling
like Avatar is a perfect example. And that's why The
Reservation Dogs is such an interesting new type of show.
And I'm gonna be very honest, like that's a world
I don't feel like I know anything about. I don't
know what's up with, Like how what's happening on reservations.
I don't really know the modern story of indigenous people
in this country, Like we know the moments where it's
(23:25):
like the Dakota Access pipeline or like these like flashpoints
or whatever, or when people are critical something like Avatar
and people are talking about it. But like I think,
what's so fascinating about the show and so good about
it is it just is like it's like a modern story.
It pulls on all that stuff and and even in
some way has fun with it, like your character, but
(23:45):
it's also like resonating a lot of that history, right,
but not like the Pocahona story. It is something new,
and like there's not that much new right that we're
seeing in popular culture. Like the character name thing in
Avatar is kind of sucking me up, Like I've never
made that connection where it's literally the same initials and
the same setup, and like I haven't seen the new one.
(24:09):
Maybe they progress it like oh Avatary, No, No, it's
it's it's just this problematic. The thing is all right,
this is but it is an entertaining movie. James Cameron
knows how to make a blockbuster and the technology is amazing,
Like you are immersed in the world. It is fantastic
be swimming with alien whales. That happens. Okay, yeah, But
(24:34):
the issue that I have and a lot of folks
have brought up, is that it's not telling anything new,
like you said, it is it is. How do I
explain it? It's like it is the same story. Colin
are just come and they do bad things, and then
the original people's the indigenous people suffer and die and
(24:55):
because they are not able to adapt quote unquote is
and it's all from a West perspective. It's because they
weren't able to adapt, they died. But there's one character
is the white guy who becomes native. He knows how
to adapt because he lives in both worlds, and he's
the savior. Here's the centerpiece of the story. And like
movies do not exist in a vacuum. Everything is context.
(25:17):
Whether you're going and you want to zone out, yes,
there's some movies, zombie movies where you can zone out.
But hey, also, zombie movies were created with a socially
conscious theme at the very root of it. I mean,
the first zombie movies were conversations about race and racism
in the United States and and so movies have a
context in them, and with that context, you're saying something
(25:38):
and the fact that you're telling another story about Indigenous
people in a way that's that sucks what happened to
them in the past. Yeah, what it does is it
really limits the ability for Indigenous voices now to say
we're existing now and we have stories we're telling now. Well,
it's crazy how hard coded it is in like the
people who are making it too right again, I have
(26:00):
seen the new one. I'm sure there are elements he had.
For sure. I saw the original and their elements who
were like, wow, that's thrilling. Like you said, like James
Cameron knows how to make a blockbuster, But like, it's
very likely James Cameron was not thinking I mean, who knows.
Maybe he's like totally nefarious and was like like, I'm
gonna just reuse this story and play on all these
tropes because it's really effective. But probably more likely he
(26:20):
kind of was like I'm telling this. Maybe he even
thought he was being like, I'm going to re contextualize
the story so that a modern audience understands the harm
we've done the white man has done too Indigenous people
or whatever. Meanwhile, he's just kind of like telling the
White Savior story version of that story. But it is
kind of hard coded in people that they can't see
(26:42):
past it. You know. It's like I think all the
time about J. K. Rowling, and I mean, it's got
lots of problems, but I don't know how if I
familiar are at the Harry Potter universe, but there's like
a whole sub group of characters they run the banks
and Harry Potter. They have like big noses and they're
like goblins and they're like fucking crazy Jewish stereotypes like
(27:06):
bad and like she'd be like, no, these are just
characters I created or whatever, Like I didn't that's not
what I was doing. And it's like no, like you
just took this like trope that exists and you re
contextualized it or you thought you not even she didn't
think about it. But it's like it's there, Like this
thing is there, And that's kind of like, again, I'm
not saying there's a direct parallel, but it is that
(27:28):
idea that there's a certain type of creator that creates
these massive properties that are like informing pop culture and
they're replaying these ideas that are like ancient ideas in
a way, like really kind of stuck in this weird
you know mode, my buddy, But we were just talking
about Harry Potter and you brought it up and she
(27:49):
was like, you know, what's fucked up about it? He's
like I was just thinking about it, and you know,
Harry Potter is so fucking classist. He's like, look, everyone
made fun Harry Potter because he was poor and his
friend Ron Weasley, they were seen as the poor kids.
But Harry Potter is a trust fund kid. He has
a fucking bankful of money from his parents. Oh yeah, see.
(28:12):
I started reading because like my daughter got interested in.
I'm like, yeah, we'll read the books. I've never read
it because I always hated Harry Potter as a character
because I'm like, oh, he's like everybody's like, oh, he's
important and he's special and he's been taking care of
his whole life. And he came to Hogwarts and everybody's like,
oh you're Harry Potter, we love you. And it's like
I'm like, what's the struggle here? Like, like, dude, like
has been protected by all of these powerful wizards because
(28:34):
he's like the chosen one and like I'm supposed to
feel what like, yeah, he had like some bad foster
parents for a few years, like and now he's a
celebrity anyhow, But just in the weeds, perhaps on the
Harry Potter totally in the weeds, like my buddy went
down the rabbit hole, where I was like, I don't
know about that. He's Ron Weasley exactly. Ron Weasley seen
as poor, but his dad worked for the fucking ministry
(28:56):
and his dad was like a g man. His dad
was like part of the up level. So it's a
good point. I mean, that's only one. That's just one
of the many problematic things about Harry Potter. You is
fucking down the line. The Goblin ship is real, though,
I mean, like if you watch the movies I watched.
When I watched the first movie, I was like, this
is It's like George Lucas. He had all these characters
(29:17):
in the fucking New Star Wars movies that are like, oh,
that's like a crazy Asian stereotype. This is a crazy
Jewish stereotype. It's very much like the James Cameron thing
where he clearly is internalized. This ship doesn't even realize
it and then spits it back out. It's like you
feel like you're smart because you found parallels in real life,
but you're not given actually in depth commentary on it.
You're just replicating it anyhow. So like that's why I
(29:50):
hope everybody who's listening to watches the show, because it
is like such a different conversation about indigenous people in
this country, like their experience. I got totally sucked into it.
I think it's like fascinating. I'll just say, like that
close it out. So Sterling Hard as a show runner,
he's from Oklahoma, is very intentional across the board about
(30:11):
how he tells a story. First and foremost, the entire
show is filmed in Oklahoma on a reservation in native community.
They hire as many Native people on the crew behind
the camera just as much as the folks who are
writing it and in front of the camera. But then also,
we don't get preachy. We don't like to be preachy.
We don't like to be saying that this is this
is our commentary and society. It's like, really, what is
(30:34):
the experience of these kids, Like, let's get down to
this experience of what it means to be a Native kid.
In America and rural Oklahoma and let the fields flow
from there. So I really do hope folks check it out.
There is a kind of segue here that I wanted
to get into a little bit, which is I mentioned
before you're an activist and an organizer. Your father, Tom B. K.
(30:56):
Gold Tooth was, And I've done I've done my research.
I'm not saying like I've been reading up on this
for years, but I did some research. He was a
founder of the Indigenous Environmental Network. He's a well known
figure in the in the activism space. And the Avatary
is like they're not just sorry not to drop barrels,
like like there's like James Cameron's also like one of
his things is he's trying to be like, you know,
(31:17):
save the planet or protect you know, it's like this
whole thing about like protecting the ecosystem and being respectful
of you know, Mother Earth and all this, but you're
actually out there doing real world work where because we're
actually fucking up the real planet we live on, not
what is the what Pandora is that the name of
the planet Avatar. That's a that's a computer generated plan.
(31:39):
You can FuG it up really all you want. But
in the real world, we're we're actually destroying like the
planet we live on, while also totally violating communities that
have been here far longer than the people who are
trying to put a oil pipeline or whatever through their land.
And I've listened to some podcasts with you, I've read
some stuff, and and you talk a lot about joy
(32:00):
and the kind of joy of activism and organizing and
how you have to kind of go into that stuff
in a way where it isn't just about doom and gloom.
It is like about like seeing the possibilities and the potential,
but like also not to be a downer on this ship,
but like it feels like the potential and the possibilities
are getting like crushed to every at every angle. So
(32:23):
tell me about like the experience of trying to kind
of get people working towards a better tomorrow, like a
better version of this planet we live on in the
face of governments and corporations and and just a general
sense of like the apathy from a lot of the people,
like how do you do that? And and and and
(32:44):
are you still doing it? Do you feel like that's
still a big part of like what you do right now?
It's a good that's a good question. Sorry, that's a
kind of wide ranging. Yeah, I struggle with it. That's
the thing is, I'm not here to be the cheerleader.
Richard Simmons like, yeah, it's gonna be okay, you guys,
(33:04):
Let's just focus on the good stuff now, Like, Hey,
people have a right to be angry. People have a
right to be afraid and anxious and have an anxiety.
People have a right to have rage. And I'm not
here to police that. But I am here as an
individual too in my own journey try not to get
(33:24):
stuck in the muck that is climate anxiety. Like, man,
it's been hard. I got burnt out like so many times,
especially the past few years. And I on a personal level,
like I'm transitioning out of my work as an organizer
and going into this new realm as a writer, as
a performer. And a part of that is because I, yeah,
I burnt out. I struggled my own mental well being,
(33:48):
because it's the writings on the wall in many ways
right where the path that we're on, and I do
feel at times like I don't know if we have
what it takes collectively as the human race to steer
the ship in the other direction where it needs to go.
But with that being set, like I refuse to give
(34:09):
into that, I still actively choose to find joy in
the work that I do in the world I am,
and I also put joy into what I want to
build and and not to like beat the horse, the
dead horse over the head or whatever the euphemism is.
Like going back to Avatar and the issues I have
with this all it's all tied to down, it connected,
(34:29):
it's all connected. But look, Avatar to made two billion dollars, right,
two billion dollars? How much? And I don't know how
much money it costs them to make it, like I
imagine at least, but still a lot of money. Let's say,
even if you start with two hundred million dollars, you
have two hundred million dollars to build a world of future,
(34:52):
an entire universe where we did not sunk up the planet,
where we did not kill indigenous people's where we are.
Actually you live in a life that's far different than this,
and yet you choose this story like I think that's
where I want to put my energy into. And as
an organizer and as a storyteller is I want to
(35:14):
actively put my energy into radically imagining a future in
which I can exist on my own terms and that
my people in my community can exist on our own
terms in a way that's in line with our principles
as Native people's, as Dakota people's, but um in line
with our principles just being good relatives to each other.
(35:35):
So that's where I find my passion, That's where I
find my drive to encourage myself but to also embolden
others to radically imagine that future. Yeah, I mean, I
mean it's like, actually, when you put it that way,
like to your point about Avatar, if you can choose
to tell a story and you can tell a story
to to a larger group of people that does imagine that.
(35:59):
It's like, again, I don't want to take away anything
from activists and organizers, but you know what, existing pop
culture is a powerful tool, right, Like what exists in
our shared sort of storytelling is really powerful. And you're
talking about like, can we make the two billion dollar
movie that imagines like the better version or the different
(36:20):
version or tells the different story, which I think is
maybe we haven't gotten there yet, but we could get there,
and there aren't maybe enough people trying. Our world is
built on stories. Our entire existence, our society is nothing
but stories in myth, right, what's currency? Currency is nothing
but a story that we all agree upon and say
(36:41):
this has value, These things have value. What is the
concept of gender? You know? These are all stories and
it is the meta narrative, those subliminal messages that are
implanted in society that's keeping the current structure that is
oppressing many for the benefit of a few. That really
(37:02):
is the problem. And so like by countering those messages
by by chipping away at the story, by saying, hey, actually, yeah,
those what are the goblins of hogwarts? Like you may
not understand it, but but folks who have been characterized
in that way, they get what that's started trying to say, Yeah,
we have to be better, we have to try better.
(37:23):
And I'm not saying you have to water things on
and I don't. And also I'm not a big fan
of quote unquote WoT culture. I want to allow ourselves
to tell stories as we see fit and we don't
have to like give into a super politicized narratives. But
the core story we're trying to tell can be different. God,
I mean, you've got me think about all this stuff.
(37:43):
We're probably gotta wrap up, and that's a great place
to like kind of end on. But I think that
idea of changing the story, it is so true what
you just said, like that that we are just living
story to story and if we can tell a different one,
if we can get the next generation to like hear
a different and it can make a huge difference. Like
that's an awesome thought. Actually, like talking about like being optimistic,
(38:05):
I think that's the most optimistic idea in the world.
And you're working on it right now, Like you're doing
it right now, like you're coming off three hours of
sleep and but working on like writing projects that could
be you know, some one of those stories or or
these stories. So, Dallas, I gotta say, this has been
an amazing conversation, Like a super fucking interesting conversation. I
really appreciate you coming on and talking about all this
(38:28):
stuff before we go. Anything you want to plug like, um,
I mean obviously we talked about a lot of your projects,
but anything you know the standard follow me on social
media It's Dallas gold Tooth across the map TikTok Instagram Twitter, Facebook. Yeah,
I'm on TikTok dancing or you dancing dances. I've been
known to uh, to be the uncle on TikTok that
(38:50):
does some dances. And yeah, folks can follow me and
check me out, you know. In the season three I
think I expected to come out for Reservation Dogs. Sometimes
this follow tone and um, pretty stoked for all of it.
I'm so thankful for for you having me on the show.
And uh, yeah it's been it's been pretty awesome. Yeah,
(39:11):
this is awesome. Thanks so much. Well, that is our
show for this week, and what a show, my goodness,
so many topics, so many thought provoking subjects. I'm I'm provoked,
(39:32):
both on a thought level and also on a more
visceral kind of body level, which is interesting. But anyhow,
will be back next week with more what future, and
as always, I wish you and your family the very best.
Host
Joshua Topolsky
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