April 15, 2022 • 46 mins
The Beals' distrust of police leaves even the most basic facts about Sandy's case up for interpretation.
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care while listening. So I guess we can start driving now,
so we'll just meet you there in ten minutes or
however you want to eat. So I'm just in the
(02:56):
car now. Last night the family gave me Sandy's coat
that she had with her the night that she died,
and so I'm feeling a great way of responsibility. I'm
taking the coat with me and We're going to go
to the cemetery this morning. Sandy's Body's not there, but
there's a marker for her, and I'm just popping in
(03:19):
the address. We rolling. Yeah, okay, so tell us where
we are. We're at Greenwood Cemetery. It's I think it's
the largest one in Jones Sport because there's probably like
(03:41):
ten cemeteries here, and we are in our family cemetery
for many generations, many centuries, and we're about to walk
to where Sandy's memorialize. That's interesting. I wonder what the
pennies are? Is that just to show that you've been here.
I wonder what does anyone I know what pennies have
put on there for the first time I met Kim
(04:04):
and she told me about Sandy. I don't think she
imagined her cousin's story would become the subject of an
entire podcast. A year went by before I asked her
if she would be willing to embark on this project together.
I couldn't do it without her buy in, and Kim
she was immediately one hundred percent a yes, which I
(04:24):
thought was pretty brave, because when you invite a journalist
into your life, you're opening yourself up to a lot
of questioning, not all of which is comfortable or feels natural.
Kim was allowing me to scrutinize her long held belief
that Sandy was murdered. She was essentially giving me permission
to check her work and risking the prospect of being
(04:47):
proven wrong. Early on in the process, she invited me
to come to Maine to meet the whole family and
to crash a big birthday party for one of her
relatives who was turning eighty. This trip, it was an
intense two full days of interviews. For hours at a time.
(05:08):
I sat down with members of the Bell family, and,
like an investigative reporter does, I peppered them with questions
trying to establish the basic undisputed facts of the case,
and a lot of these questions were directed at Kim,
as she was my conduit to the family and the
one who had spent the most time investigating Sandy's death
(05:29):
on her own. The final day of my trip, we
drove to the cemetery where Sandy has a grave marker.
I only had a few minutes before my flight back,
but I wanted to get Kim's temperature. After a long
and emotionally grueling weekend, I'm still processing it. It was.
It was definitely different to dredge it all back up
(05:50):
the questions that you were asked. I was like, WHOA,
I've never thought about those things before. And then some
of the things that we came up with that I
thought were solid evidence, and now we got to fit
figure out what it means and what it all was.
But that was a little disturbing. But the questions you asked,
we're pretty uh. They caught me by surprise. I have
(06:14):
more questions than I thought I did, and I'll send
them to you. I'm trusting that it's all going to
unfold and we'll get the answers that we need to
help bring some closure for them, well for me too.
I'm so glad you guys came up here. I can't
believe you'd come to Jonesport, Maine and do this. From
(06:36):
my Heart Radio, I'm Melissa Jelson, and this is what
happened to Sandy Beal and iHeart original podcast, Chapter six,
Divided Minds. When I first met the Bills in Maine,
(06:59):
I made them a promise that I would keep an
open mind and follow the evidence, and I wouldn't be
swayed by one side or the other. It was clear
from the get go that there were two opposing sides here.
Mine so divided that there was very little agreement on
what the most basic facts meant. The Prince George's County
Police Department and the Beal family had examined the exact
(07:23):
same documents, dissected the exact same set of facts, and
come to wildly divergent conclusions about what happened to Sandy.
As a pair of fresh eyes on the case, I
wondered whether both sides were trapped in their own cycles
of confirmation bias, processing the information in a way that
aligned with their own preconceived ideas. Like the cardboard under
(07:47):
the wheels of Sandy's car. The bills interpreted it as
a signed that Sandy was trying to leave the poleyard
on the night of her death and wasn't planning to
die by suicide, But this detail was not even remembered
by Detective Shishlski. It didn't register as important because it
didn't fit neatly into his theory. We each are bringing
(08:09):
our own experiences, our own beliefs, our own desires to
the table, so that when two people with different mindsets
are given the same information to look at by virtue
of their different brains, they may interpret those things in
very different ways. Jeff Kakuka is a professor of psychology
at Towson University. He's an expert on how bias can
(08:32):
influence decision making, including in investigations. In psychology. When we
talk about bias, what we're talking about is kind of
like a reflex. It's something that our brains do without
us even realizing that we're doing it. Once you have
a conclusion in mind, you're no longer sort of taking
(08:53):
in all the information and evaluating it in an objective way. Instead,
what tends to happen is people will selectively seek out
information that fits their existing beliefs, and if they encounter
any information that goes against their existing beliefs, they'll either
ignore it or find a way to somehow minimize its
(09:14):
importance so that they can again sort of continue preserving
that belief that exists in the first place. There's an
adage that have thought about a lot while making this podcast.
It's called Hanlan's razor, and it goes like this, never
attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.
(09:35):
There's a few different versions of the phrase, and sometimes
incompetence is subbed for stupidity. This proverb, it's a helpful
reminder not to immediately assume the worst intentions in the
actions of others, that more often than not people are
careless or selfish rather than mean spirited or evil. Of course,
(09:57):
malice exists, but if you look for it everywhere, you
could risk having a distorted perception of reality. Take, for instance,
Sandy's original death certificate, issued on February eighteenth, nineteen seventy seven.
It was given to Joanne back then and has remained
in her possession ever since. At the bottom of the page,
(10:19):
there's a line with a medical examiner must indicate the
manner of death, choosing between natural causes homicide, suicide, accident
or undetermined. You would expect the box for suicide to
be checked, but it's not. Instead, there's an X through
the box undetermined manner of death. It was always an
(10:41):
odd inconsistency that bothered the family, and a few years
ago it got even weirder. Kim requested a new copy
of Sandy's death certificate. When she received the document, she
was startled to find that the box for suicide now
had an X two. Kim's immediate impression was that the
records might have been altered to fit with the police's story,
(11:05):
and it's entirely possible that the medical examiner's office colluded
with the police to cover up her death. But the
possibility also exists that it's just a typo that the
medical examiner initially stamped the wrong box and fixed it
later in competence or malice. That's the thing is, these
(11:27):
biases are so pervasive that they can affect every aspect
of our decision making without even us realizing that it's happening.
We have these beliefs, and our brain is wired in
such a way that leads us to pursue information that
agrees with our beliefs, rather than pursuing information that might
prove us wrong, because who likes to be proven wrong.
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for more deals. It's understandable why Kim and the rest
of the Bill family was suspicious of Prince George's County
police because the investigation into Sandy's death was tainted by
a clear conflict of interest. Sandy was a police trainee
(17:25):
and her car was filled with evidence linking her to
local cops. And if PG County police officers were willing
to cover up their sexual misconduct, what other wrongdoing were
they capable of? If Shozhelsky could forget the cardboard, what
other inconvenient facts might have evaded his memory? Without trust
(17:47):
in the police, the Bills were skeptical of everything they
were told. And this is where I thought I could
be of help. I wanted to bring in some unbiased
experts to try to recreate what happened that night in
the Polyard, inserting some impartiality into Sandy's case. That's how
I met Paul Yuribay. A certified forensic pathologist who has
(18:08):
worked for the US Army as well as local and
state agencies. He told me he's performed over fifteen hundred
autopsies in his career, and hundreds of those have been suicides.
I gave him the rundown on Sandy's case, the keys
in the ignition and the cardboard under the wheels while
she's in the mud. That might indicate that Sandy had
(18:30):
been trying to leave the location that she was at.
How do you interpret this kind of information in the
context of a suicide. I would lump that in with Okay,
what's the timeline, what happened in the hours before her death?
You know, even you know, going back like twenty four hours.
Why was she there, who was she meeting with? Who
(18:51):
did she have relations with? You know? And that would
answer the question why are their cardboard under the tires?
All these questions he's asking, they're great ones. We don't
have answers to them, though, because PG County Police closed
the case before establishing these facts, that on its face
isn't necessarily suspect, Paul said. Is every death investigated to
(19:13):
the absolute extreme of pushing the investigation as far as
we can interviewing absolutely everyone possible, and you know, doing
a full court US on every case. No, And that's
just that's that's largely a matter of resources and resource allocation.
This reminded me of what Detective Shoszelski told me about
(19:36):
how overworked and understaffed he was back in the nineteen seventies.
I mean they put us like bouns. They really did.
Shazelski told me that his immediate read of the scene
was that of a suicide. There was ample evidence of it,
he said, and one of the biggest factors was the
(19:56):
gun if it was an homicide. If it was a murder,
First that I don't think the tiller would have left
the gun there. Number one. Then when I found out
the gun belonged to her father, it's not likely that
someone would have murdered her with her father's gun. But
(20:17):
from the Bill's perspective, the gun is the most important
piece of evidence that proves Sandy didn't die by suicide.
The gun isn't abstract to them. It was returned to
the family after Sandy's death. Sandy's brothers have shot it.
They know the power it takes, the kickback after you
(20:37):
pull the trigger, and based on their personal experience, they
came to believe she couldn't have shot herself with it,
not that Sandy wouldn't, although they also believe that, but
that she couldn't. That the physical evidence just didn't line up.
Here's Michael and Stephen. The thing about that gun was
at three fifty seven, and it was a long gun,
(21:00):
long barrel, right, and when that damn thing kicked, when
you shot that thing, it kicked, I mean it had
a kick to it, so she would have to use
two hands in order to shoot it. And the trigger
wasn't a hair trigger either. It had a couple of
pounds of pull. So that's the other thing, you know.
(21:20):
That kind of got me about why they said she
would shoot herself, because if she was able to manage that,
that frigging gun would have shot off, would have taken
off right through the side glass window. And Kim shared
this opinion that it was impossible Sandy shot herself. And
when I met with the Prince George's County police, they
were so insistent on you just don't understand. We've seen
(21:44):
lots of things like that. And I finally just said,
if you can prove to me through ballistics and show
me the trajectory and all the opportunities that this was suicide,
then I'll believe you. But not until then all your
evidence completely goes against the evidence that I have. She
didn't commit suicide. Listening to Detective Shozhlski and the Biel family,
(22:08):
I was faced with two different interpretations of the same evidence,
and so I asked Paul for his opinion, and he
turned my attention to Sandy's hands. When you fire a revolver,
especially at three fifty seven magnum, there's a lot of
gunpowder that explodes, and a lot of that gunpowder comes
out through what's called the cylinder gap. So say, if
(22:30):
you have your hand over that cylinder gap, or even
adjacent to it, when you discharge it, you can get
you know, stood on your hand. That way, both of
Sandy's hands had gunpowder on them. According to the police report.
Paul said he would interpret this to mean that Sandy
was either holding the gun or had her hands very
(22:51):
close to it when it was fired. So would it
be possible to have stood on your hands and not
have been the one to pull the trigger If you
were in a small, enclosed environment, it could be like
if you were grabbing for the gun to push it
away or something like that. I've done cases where two
people are struggling for a gun and the gun goes off,
(23:16):
and it's very difficult to tell who, you know, who
pulled the trigger, because they both might have had their
finger on the trigger, or someone had their finger on
the trigger, and the other person, you know, is grabbing
their hand to try and either keep them from pulling
the usually to keep them from pulling the trigger. Paul
pointed out that Sandy was also shot at very close range,
(23:38):
which is characteristic of a suicide. Now, if it's a
contact wound, it's either one of two things. Either, you know,
the person put the gun to their head and pulled
the trigger in this case, put the gun to you know,
she put the gun to her abdomen and pull the trigger,
or someone else put the gun to her abdomen and
pull the trigger. And then that's where, Okay, we're looking
for We're looking for others to support that or rule
(24:01):
that out. So I can tell you the range, I
can tell you the trajectory. I can tell you what
it injured. I can tell you you know, I can
give you maybe a little estimate of survivability. Maybe so
I can tell you all of those things, but I
can't tell you who shot it. I asked him about
(24:25):
the lack of fingerprints on the gun. Turns out Paul
didn't find this that unusual. Firearms are notoriously hard to
test for prints. One study estimated that fingerprints are recovered
from firearms only about thirteen percent of the time, and
that's nowadays because of say, you know the texture on
(24:46):
the handle, or you know, just a partial print at
a odd location of the gun, they might not be
able to get it. And I would also have to know, Okay,
what is the finger printing policies and procedures of the
Prince George's comp a Police Department's circa nineteen seventy seven,
and did they follow that procedure. Reading the autopsy report,
(25:08):
Sandy's gunshot wound is described in excruciating and impersonal detail. Quote.
The wound is slightly ovoid, a quarter inch in diameter,
and is surrounded by an eighth inch rim of abrasion
resembling muzzle imprint. Powder is noted in the wound margins.
I asked Paul, based on everything that's in the autopsy
(25:29):
and the police report and taking into consideration the family's
significant questions, if it was possible that Sandy shot herself,
if you put your hand right at the base of
your ribcage or base of your sternum, move it over
about three inches to the bottom of your rib margin,
(25:51):
that's where the entrance was now. Once again, if she
were to do this herself, she could fire the gun
essentially holding the handle of the gun with her gun
with her with her left thumb on the trigger, which
is sort of like holding it backwards essentially, which is
(26:11):
consistent with her kind of holding her left hand across
her body, so to speak, and then likely firing the
gun with her thumb on the trigger. And that could
also explain why they didn't find any fingerprints on the gun.
As well. Paul could see a scenario in which Sandy
shot herself and caused the injuries described in her autopsy.
(26:34):
What had been unthinkable to the Bills was a real
probability to Paul. Still, he admitted that the case was unusual.
How many times in your career, if you remember, have
you seen a teenage girl shoot her so candful, Probably
less than five. Ever in the ab Hut no a
(27:03):
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the case, this is probably the most famous trial you've
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(27:28):
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(27:49):
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offer twenty for twenty percent off. The stories Sandy's family
(30:15):
tell about her emphasize her sense of humor and her
protective instincts. She was quick to speak her mind and
stand up for herself. Her family knew her to be cheerful, focused, hardworking.
She was a well adjusted kid who they trusted and
based on their knowledge of her as a daughter and
(30:36):
a sister and a cousin, they didn't believe Sandy would
take her own life. It was incomprehensible to them. It
didn't match the person they knew. But during this reporting,
I found out a lot of things they didn't know
about Sandy, things that were happening in her life, and
as painful as it is to contemplate now, there's probably
(30:58):
a lot they didn't know about how she was feeling.
Sandy died surrounded by police paraphernalia. Her dashboard held a
shifts schedule card, a duty rig and newspaper clippings about cops,
and she was found in a location where cops liked
to gather. Her family believed that she was protected in
(31:20):
the presence of police, but I think it's more likely
that all that time she spent hanging out with them
was actually an opportunity for abuse. From what I've discovered,
it seems obvious that at least some police officers took
advantage of Sandy, pursuing inappropriate sexual relationships with the teenager,
and in this climate, Sandy became pregnant and had an
(31:43):
abortion in secret. If she was being mistreated by police,
then I imagined she would have felt very alone, possibly scared,
and she probably didn't know how to make it stop.
Sandy kept these painful parts of her life hidden. She
presented to the outside world as fine, and to her
(32:07):
family this was strong evidence that she couldn't have died
by suicide because they didn't see it coming. Their assumption
about suicide was that if Sandy had been considering it,
her pain would have been so visible it could not
go unnoticed. But that's not always the case. And if
(32:29):
you think about human nature, what makes it up? Purpose, meaning, contribution,
and connection. Thomas Joyner is a researcher at Florida State University.
He spends his days researching ways to prevent suicide. It's
a deep puzzle about human nature about why this would happen.
The bills have not been able to answer this, why
(32:51):
Sandy would have thought that this was the best option
for her, And this question is the subject of Thomas's research,
which explores what's happening in the minds of people who
are suicidal. If you become that convinced that you're a
burden on other people, and if you feel like you're
(33:12):
disconnected and cut off, ostracized, alienated, if you feel those
two things deeply and then also permanently that they're intractable,
that they'll never change, that mixture is the danger zone
where people might take their lives. Of those who find
themselves in this dangerous zone, a feeling deeply alienated, a
(33:36):
burden to others, and convinced that those feelings will never change.
Not all attempts suicide. The vast majority of people who
experience suicidal ideation do not act on it. To put
it in perspective, around forty six thousand people die from
suicide every year in the US, about a million more attempted,
(33:57):
and many many more. Around twelve million peopleeople seriously think
about it. Yeah, it's one thing to talk about death
in the abstract, but to actually face it in reality
totally different matter. Not everybody has. The wreck was the fearlessness, pain, tolerance,
(34:18):
even practical knowledge to have the capacity to even enact suicide,
even if they really genuinely desire to do so. Did
Sandy have those things? I know she had access to
a gun her father's, and her brother Michael actually told
me that he'd seen Sandy take it on a few occasions.
(34:39):
Sandy said she was borrowing the gun for target practice.
So it follows that Sandy would have known how to
use it. And suicide as a form of death, of course,
is fearsome and scary and daunting, and so to face
it fully, to steer it down, you need a capacity
to do that. Not everybody has it. I told Thomas
(35:03):
about the beals is vivid memory of Sandy as a happy,
high functioning teenager. Sometimes it does look like that suicide
does look sudden. What does that mean? Does it mean
it was truly impulsive? Or might it mean, for example,
that the person was very successful in concealing their ongoing
(35:24):
misery and planning. And I think it's the latter. I
think it's clearly the latter. But there is debate about that,
and that can hurt to the loved ones. And it
seems like she would have told us, you know, we're
the family, we're the loved ones. But a way to
understand that is that she felt maybe that this was
(35:44):
a profound burden that she's carrying, that she's a burden
to everybody. She felt that maybe on the inside, to
share that with others, in her view, might have further
burdened them. Sudden death in anyone is a tragedy, and
(36:08):
it doesn't matter what the cause was. That's gonna grieve
families and trouble families for years or even decades. And
then to add the additional layer of it wasn't just
an accident. Or an illness. They took their own laves.
That hurts, That really hurts. And I don't think it
(36:31):
need be very different than a car accident or a
heart attack. But to get to that place, you have
to have a particular understanding of the suicidal mindset that
most people, most families don't have. I asked Thomas what
to make of the fact that Sandy had plans for
the future. She was moving to Maine, she was actively
(36:53):
pursuing a career in law enforcement. Even her abortion could
be considered a sign that she was thinking ahead, planning
for the life she wanted. She was still balancing her
checkbook right before she died. If you have plans, it
either means that suicide's not on your mind at all.
(37:14):
It can mean that, or if you have plans, it
can mean that there's a struggle going on in your mind,
an argument, a debate between death and life, an ambivalence
that's going back and forth, tilting back and forth, and
when it tilts toward death, planning for future activities ceases
(37:36):
pretty much, and planning for suicide kicks in. And then
when it tilts back towards the other side of the ambivalence,
towards life, then you might, you know, put the suicide
planning on the shelf, so to speak, and kick in
plans for activities. And so most go through this ambivalence
(37:58):
process than most or all will have plans for tomorrow,
plans for next week, just like getting one else. Well,
it's a striking concept that someone could be planning their
life one minute then end at the next And it
made me think once more about the cardboard under Sandy's tires.
(38:19):
Could Sandy have been experiencing a struggle in her mind,
feeling ambivalence between life and death. Maybe at some point
she was planning on leaving the pole lyard until she
made a new plan. I told all of this to Kim,
(38:40):
what I learned from Thomas about suicide and what I
gleaned from Paul, who reviewed Sandy's autopsy with me, and
she listened, took in all the facts with a gentle
smile and a deferential nod. It was something she would
need to think about, she told me. So we casually
said goodbye, and I expected to hear from her soon,
(39:01):
and I did, because as I've been reporting the story,
Kim has relentlessly continued her own parallel investigation. Every time
I spoke to her, she had her sight set on
something new, a new document to obtain or piece of
evidence to examine. On her list of critical items to
track down was Sandy's full medical file, which was held
(39:23):
at the Medical Examiner's office in Maryland. Kim left me
this voice memo after her last visit there. Okay, it
is I think the twenty second at three o'clock. I
just left the Medical Examiner's office. And when I got there,
it was like God just opened the doors, because the
(39:46):
door just opened, and she's like, Okay, come on in.
So I got right up to the fourth floor and
this really nice lady named Linda, and she was just
most helpful and called the medical records. Medical records were
foramiliar with my name already, which was kind of cool,
you know. And I've was showing her, Oh, I have
the autopsy report. I don't need the autopsy report. I
(40:07):
need the medical records. I need slides, I need anything
else in there that could help me get this case reopened.
Although she already had Sandy's autopsy, she knew it was
only part of the file on her cousin's death. She
wanted to see what else she might be able to
discover hidden in the depths of the archives. Specifically, she
(40:28):
was looking for biological evidence the sperm that was collected
from Sandy's body to see if it could be tested
for DNA, and she was looking for photos, which she
hoped would offer new insight into Sandy's death. And after
about a half hour, Mike came out and very nice guy.
He's retired firefighter, a retired vet from army. He said,
(40:51):
for sure, for any DNA, I'm going to have to
get a subpoena. There's absolutely no way around it. He said.
There's probably going to be pictures in there, so that's
where we're Standy is very helpful. I know he'll help me.
I think I've got their curiosity intrigued anyway, so I
do feel like they're gonna help me. Her ultimate goal
(41:13):
was to stumble onto something, anything that might get Sandy's
case reopened, forcing Prince George's County to take a deeper look.
So I don't know, if we could just get them
to open it, that would be really awesome. I don't
likely see that happening because they're pretty convinced that this
(41:35):
is a suicide. Reopening the case would mean that it
would be considered an active investigation. Again. It would mean
that the police might interview Doug, or test the sperm,
or track down the cops that supervised Sandy in the
Explorer program so many years ago. Anyway, that's where we stand.
(41:55):
It was a good meeting, we'll see. Kim flew back
to Texas with a new agenda of trying to get
a subpoena to retrieve and test the DNA in Sandy's file,
But before she could follow through, she received an email.
It was from Bernie Nelson, a cold case detective from
(42:18):
Prince George's County. He wanted to meet Kim in person
to talk. I asked if I could tape the conversation,
and PG County said no. But Kim met with him
and that meeting changed everything. So this is eleven o'clock
on Monday morning. He asks, so how did all this
(42:41):
podcast stuff happen? We've talked a lot about suicide this episode.
If you or someone you know as considering self harm,
please contact the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at one eight
hundred two seven three eight to two, or texts Strength
(43:02):
to Crisis text Line at seven four to one seven
four to one. What Happened to Sandy Beale is hosted
by me Melissa Jelson. It's written and produced by me
and Katrina Norvel. The podcast is edited by Abu Safar,
sound designed by Aaron Kaufman. Jason English is our executive producer.
(43:25):
Research and production assistance by Marisa Brown. To find out
more about my investigation, follow me on Twitter at quasimado.
That's qu as I am a d Oh. Thanks so
much for listening a brand new historical true crime podcast.
(43:49):
When you lay suffering a sudden brutal death starring Alison
william I hope you'll think of me. Erased the Murder
of Elba Saans. She was a sweet, happy, virtuous girl
until she met that man right there. Written and created
by me, Alison Flack. Is it possible? So we're standing
by for your answer. Erased the Murder of Elma Sans
(44:12):
on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen
to your podcasts. When Tracey, who were killed Burns was
two years old, her baby brother died. I was told
that Matthew died in an accident. Her parents told police
she had killed him. I'm Nancy Glass. Join me for
Burden of Guilt, the new podcast that tells the truth
(44:35):
an incredible story of a toddler who was framed for murder.
Listen to Burden of Guilt on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts,
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said something's wrong her, you know, whenever a woe is
(44:56):
allowed to kill my two kids. Unrestorable is a new
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a mother accused of murder. Despite signs that Catherine Hoggle
took her tiny children one by one into the night,
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(45:16):
Listen to Unrestorable on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or
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completely ad free, subscribe to the iHeart True Crime Plus channel,
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(45:36):
and The Idaho Massacre. Hey guys, Britton Laurie here from
Life on Cop podcast. We are the number one Dating
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You can join us while we unpack it all by
searching for life on cut Now, wherever you get your podcasts,
You're going to die. I guess I should have softened
that a little. Someday you're gonna die. We all are.
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I hope you'll join me on that journey, and you
should probably do it soon, because who knows how long
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don't discuss. Available now on the iHeartRadio app or wherever
you get your podcasts.
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Dot org slash iHeart. Before we begin, Please note this
series includes talk of suicide and sexual violence. Please take
(02:32):
care while listening. So I guess we can start driving now,
so we'll just meet you there in ten minutes or
however you want to eat. So I'm just in the
(02:56):
car now. Last night the family gave me Sandy's coat
that she had with her the night that she died,
and so I'm feeling a great way of responsibility. I'm
taking the coat with me and We're going to go
to the cemetery this morning. Sandy's Body's not there, but
there's a marker for her, and I'm just popping in
(03:19):
the address. We rolling. Yeah, okay, so tell us where
we are. We're at Greenwood Cemetery. It's I think it's
the largest one in Jones Sport because there's probably like
(03:41):
ten cemeteries here, and we are in our family cemetery
for many generations, many centuries, and we're about to walk
to where Sandy's memorialize. That's interesting. I wonder what the
pennies are? Is that just to show that you've been here.
I wonder what does anyone I know what pennies have
put on there for the first time I met Kim
(04:04):
and she told me about Sandy. I don't think she
imagined her cousin's story would become the subject of an
entire podcast. A year went by before I asked her
if she would be willing to embark on this project together.
I couldn't do it without her buy in, and Kim
she was immediately one hundred percent a yes, which I
(04:24):
thought was pretty brave, because when you invite a journalist
into your life, you're opening yourself up to a lot
of questioning, not all of which is comfortable or feels natural.
Kim was allowing me to scrutinize her long held belief
that Sandy was murdered. She was essentially giving me permission
to check her work and risking the prospect of being
(04:47):
proven wrong. Early on in the process, she invited me
to come to Maine to meet the whole family and
to crash a big birthday party for one of her
relatives who was turning eighty. This trip, it was an
intense two full days of interviews. For hours at a time.
(05:08):
I sat down with members of the Bell family, and,
like an investigative reporter does, I peppered them with questions
trying to establish the basic undisputed facts of the case,
and a lot of these questions were directed at Kim,
as she was my conduit to the family and the
one who had spent the most time investigating Sandy's death
(05:29):
on her own. The final day of my trip, we
drove to the cemetery where Sandy has a grave marker.
I only had a few minutes before my flight back,
but I wanted to get Kim's temperature. After a long
and emotionally grueling weekend, I'm still processing it. It was.
It was definitely different to dredge it all back up
(05:50):
the questions that you were asked. I was like, WHOA,
I've never thought about those things before. And then some
of the things that we came up with that I
thought were solid evidence, and now we got to fit
figure out what it means and what it all was.
But that was a little disturbing. But the questions you asked,
we're pretty uh. They caught me by surprise. I have
(06:14):
more questions than I thought I did, and I'll send
them to you. I'm trusting that it's all going to
unfold and we'll get the answers that we need to
help bring some closure for them, well for me too.
I'm so glad you guys came up here. I can't
believe you'd come to Jonesport, Maine and do this. From
(06:36):
my Heart Radio, I'm Melissa Jelson, and this is what
happened to Sandy Beal and iHeart original podcast, Chapter six,
Divided Minds. When I first met the Bills in Maine,
(06:59):
I made them a promise that I would keep an
open mind and follow the evidence, and I wouldn't be
swayed by one side or the other. It was clear
from the get go that there were two opposing sides here.
Mine so divided that there was very little agreement on
what the most basic facts meant. The Prince George's County
Police Department and the Beal family had examined the exact
(07:23):
same documents, dissected the exact same set of facts, and
come to wildly divergent conclusions about what happened to Sandy.
As a pair of fresh eyes on the case, I
wondered whether both sides were trapped in their own cycles
of confirmation bias, processing the information in a way that
aligned with their own preconceived ideas. Like the cardboard under
(07:47):
the wheels of Sandy's car. The bills interpreted it as
a signed that Sandy was trying to leave the poleyard
on the night of her death and wasn't planning to
die by suicide, But this detail was not even remembered
by Detective Shishlski. It didn't register as important because it
didn't fit neatly into his theory. We each are bringing
(08:09):
our own experiences, our own beliefs, our own desires to
the table, so that when two people with different mindsets
are given the same information to look at by virtue
of their different brains, they may interpret those things in
very different ways. Jeff Kakuka is a professor of psychology
at Towson University. He's an expert on how bias can
(08:32):
influence decision making, including in investigations. In psychology. When we
talk about bias, what we're talking about is kind of
like a reflex. It's something that our brains do without
us even realizing that we're doing it. Once you have
a conclusion in mind, you're no longer sort of taking
(08:53):
in all the information and evaluating it in an objective way. Instead,
what tends to happen is people will selectively seek out
information that fits their existing beliefs, and if they encounter
any information that goes against their existing beliefs, they'll either
ignore it or find a way to somehow minimize its
(09:14):
importance so that they can again sort of continue preserving
that belief that exists in the first place. There's an
adage that have thought about a lot while making this podcast.
It's called Hanlan's razor, and it goes like this, never
attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.
(09:35):
There's a few different versions of the phrase, and sometimes
incompetence is subbed for stupidity. This proverb, it's a helpful
reminder not to immediately assume the worst intentions in the
actions of others, that more often than not people are
careless or selfish rather than mean spirited or evil. Of course,
(09:57):
malice exists, but if you look for it everywhere, you
could risk having a distorted perception of reality. Take, for instance,
Sandy's original death certificate, issued on February eighteenth, nineteen seventy seven.
It was given to Joanne back then and has remained
in her possession ever since. At the bottom of the page,
(10:19):
there's a line with a medical examiner must indicate the
manner of death, choosing between natural causes homicide, suicide, accident
or undetermined. You would expect the box for suicide to
be checked, but it's not. Instead, there's an X through
the box undetermined manner of death. It was always an
(10:41):
odd inconsistency that bothered the family, and a few years
ago it got even weirder. Kim requested a new copy
of Sandy's death certificate. When she received the document, she
was startled to find that the box for suicide now
had an X two. Kim's immediate impression was that the
records might have been altered to fit with the police's story,
(11:05):
and it's entirely possible that the medical examiner's office colluded
with the police to cover up her death. But the
possibility also exists that it's just a typo that the
medical examiner initially stamped the wrong box and fixed it
later in competence or malice. That's the thing is, these
(11:27):
biases are so pervasive that they can affect every aspect
of our decision making without even us realizing that it's happening.
We have these beliefs, and our brain is wired in
such a way that leads us to pursue information that
agrees with our beliefs, rather than pursuing information that might
prove us wrong, because who likes to be proven wrong.
(11:57):
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(13:01):
crime podcast. The year is eighteen hundred, City Hall, New York.
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When you lay suffering a sudden, violent, brutal death, I
(13:25):
hope you'll think of me. Starring Alison Williams. I don't
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Written and created by me Alison Block. Listen to Erased
the Murder of Elma Sans. She was a sweet, happy,
(13:47):
virtuous girl until she met that man. Right there on
the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to
your podcasts. When Tracey were kel Burns was two years old,
her baby brother died. I was told that Matthew died
in an accident, and no one really talked about it.
(14:09):
Her parents told police she had killed him. Medical records
faid that I killed my baby brother. I'm Nancy Glass.
Join me for Burden of Guilt, the new podcast that
tells the truth an incredible story of a toddler who
(14:29):
was framed for murder and how she grew into an
adult determined to get justice and protect her family. While
we had prosecuted some cold cases, this was the coldest,
This was frigid. But how does a two year old
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(14:51):
anything for somebody. Listen to Burden of Guilt on the
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notice Jacob is not in his crib, So I look
(15:12):
at in Sara's She's not there. So I'm like, Okay,
they're not there. Unrestorable is a new true crime podcast
that investigates the case of Catherine Hoggele, a mother accused
of murder. I'm thinking, you know, like what's going on?
Like this is insane, Like where are my kids? Despite
signs that Catherine Hoggle took her tiny children one by
(15:34):
one into the night, never to come home again, she
has yet to stand trial because soon after her children
went missing, she was declared incompetent to stand trial. We
have a blueprint to get away with murder in the
state of Maryland. At this point. In Maryland, if a
defendant is found incompetent and can't be restored to competency,
their felony charges are dismissed after five years. So as
(15:57):
the clock counts down Catherine's charges on the urge of
being dismissed. What does justice look like in this case?
Something wrong here? You know, whenever one was allowed to
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(16:17):
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for more deals. It's understandable why Kim and the rest
of the Bill family was suspicious of Prince George's County
police because the investigation into Sandy's death was tainted by
a clear conflict of interest. Sandy was a police trainee
(17:25):
and her car was filled with evidence linking her to
local cops. And if PG County police officers were willing
to cover up their sexual misconduct, what other wrongdoing were
they capable of? If Shozhelsky could forget the cardboard, what
other inconvenient facts might have evaded his memory? Without trust
(17:47):
in the police, the Bills were skeptical of everything they
were told. And this is where I thought I could
be of help. I wanted to bring in some unbiased
experts to try to recreate what happened that night in
the Polyard, inserting some impartiality into Sandy's case. That's how
I met Paul Yuribay. A certified forensic pathologist who has
(18:08):
worked for the US Army as well as local and
state agencies. He told me he's performed over fifteen hundred
autopsies in his career, and hundreds of those have been suicides.
I gave him the rundown on Sandy's case, the keys
in the ignition and the cardboard under the wheels while
she's in the mud. That might indicate that Sandy had
(18:30):
been trying to leave the location that she was at.
How do you interpret this kind of information in the
context of a suicide. I would lump that in with Okay,
what's the timeline, what happened in the hours before her death?
You know, even you know, going back like twenty four hours.
Why was she there, who was she meeting with? Who
(18:51):
did she have relations with? You know? And that would
answer the question why are their cardboard under the tires?
All these questions he's asking, they're great ones. We don't
have answers to them, though, because PG County Police closed
the case before establishing these facts, that on its face
isn't necessarily suspect, Paul said. Is every death investigated to
(19:13):
the absolute extreme of pushing the investigation as far as
we can interviewing absolutely everyone possible, and you know, doing
a full court US on every case. No, And that's
just that's that's largely a matter of resources and resource allocation.
This reminded me of what Detective Shoszelski told me about
(19:36):
how overworked and understaffed he was back in the nineteen seventies.
I mean they put us like bouns. They really did.
Shazelski told me that his immediate read of the scene
was that of a suicide. There was ample evidence of it,
he said, and one of the biggest factors was the
(19:56):
gun if it was an homicide. If it was a murder,
First that I don't think the tiller would have left
the gun there. Number one. Then when I found out
the gun belonged to her father, it's not likely that
someone would have murdered her with her father's gun. But
(20:17):
from the Bill's perspective, the gun is the most important
piece of evidence that proves Sandy didn't die by suicide.
The gun isn't abstract to them. It was returned to
the family after Sandy's death. Sandy's brothers have shot it.
They know the power it takes, the kickback after you
(20:37):
pull the trigger, and based on their personal experience, they
came to believe she couldn't have shot herself with it,
not that Sandy wouldn't, although they also believe that, but
that she couldn't. That the physical evidence just didn't line up.
Here's Michael and Stephen. The thing about that gun was
at three fifty seven, and it was a long gun,
(21:00):
long barrel, right, and when that damn thing kicked, when
you shot that thing, it kicked, I mean it had
a kick to it, so she would have to use
two hands in order to shoot it. And the trigger
wasn't a hair trigger either. It had a couple of
pounds of pull. So that's the other thing, you know.
(21:20):
That kind of got me about why they said she
would shoot herself, because if she was able to manage that,
that frigging gun would have shot off, would have taken
off right through the side glass window. And Kim shared
this opinion that it was impossible Sandy shot herself. And
when I met with the Prince George's County police, they
were so insistent on you just don't understand. We've seen
(21:44):
lots of things like that. And I finally just said,
if you can prove to me through ballistics and show
me the trajectory and all the opportunities that this was suicide,
then I'll believe you. But not until then all your
evidence completely goes against the evidence that I have. She
didn't commit suicide. Listening to Detective Shozhlski and the Biel family,
(22:08):
I was faced with two different interpretations of the same evidence,
and so I asked Paul for his opinion, and he
turned my attention to Sandy's hands. When you fire a revolver,
especially at three fifty seven magnum, there's a lot of
gunpowder that explodes, and a lot of that gunpowder comes
out through what's called the cylinder gap. So say, if
(22:30):
you have your hand over that cylinder gap, or even
adjacent to it, when you discharge it, you can get
you know, stood on your hand. That way, both of
Sandy's hands had gunpowder on them. According to the police report.
Paul said he would interpret this to mean that Sandy
was either holding the gun or had her hands very
(22:51):
close to it when it was fired. So would it
be possible to have stood on your hands and not
have been the one to pull the trigger If you
were in a small, enclosed environment, it could be like
if you were grabbing for the gun to push it
away or something like that. I've done cases where two
people are struggling for a gun and the gun goes off,
(23:16):
and it's very difficult to tell who, you know, who
pulled the trigger, because they both might have had their
finger on the trigger, or someone had their finger on
the trigger, and the other person, you know, is grabbing
their hand to try and either keep them from pulling
the usually to keep them from pulling the trigger. Paul
pointed out that Sandy was also shot at very close range,
(23:38):
which is characteristic of a suicide. Now, if it's a
contact wound, it's either one of two things. Either, you know,
the person put the gun to their head and pulled
the trigger in this case, put the gun to you know,
she put the gun to her abdomen and pull the trigger,
or someone else put the gun to her abdomen and
pull the trigger. And then that's where, Okay, we're looking
for We're looking for others to support that or rule
(24:01):
that out. So I can tell you the range, I
can tell you the trajectory. I can tell you what
it injured. I can tell you you know, I can
give you maybe a little estimate of survivability. Maybe so
I can tell you all of those things, but I
can't tell you who shot it. I asked him about
(24:25):
the lack of fingerprints on the gun. Turns out Paul
didn't find this that unusual. Firearms are notoriously hard to
test for prints. One study estimated that fingerprints are recovered
from firearms only about thirteen percent of the time, and
that's nowadays because of say, you know the texture on
(24:46):
the handle, or you know, just a partial print at
a odd location of the gun, they might not be
able to get it. And I would also have to know, Okay,
what is the finger printing policies and procedures of the
Prince George's comp a Police Department's circa nineteen seventy seven,
and did they follow that procedure. Reading the autopsy report,
(25:08):
Sandy's gunshot wound is described in excruciating and impersonal detail. Quote.
The wound is slightly ovoid, a quarter inch in diameter,
and is surrounded by an eighth inch rim of abrasion
resembling muzzle imprint. Powder is noted in the wound margins.
I asked Paul, based on everything that's in the autopsy
(25:29):
and the police report and taking into consideration the family's
significant questions, if it was possible that Sandy shot herself,
if you put your hand right at the base of
your ribcage or base of your sternum, move it over
about three inches to the bottom of your rib margin,
(25:51):
that's where the entrance was now. Once again, if she
were to do this herself, she could fire the gun
essentially holding the handle of the gun with her gun
with her with her left thumb on the trigger, which
is sort of like holding it backwards essentially, which is
(26:11):
consistent with her kind of holding her left hand across
her body, so to speak, and then likely firing the
gun with her thumb on the trigger. And that could
also explain why they didn't find any fingerprints on the gun.
As well. Paul could see a scenario in which Sandy
shot herself and caused the injuries described in her autopsy.
(26:34):
What had been unthinkable to the Bills was a real
probability to Paul. Still, he admitted that the case was unusual.
How many times in your career, if you remember, have
you seen a teenage girl shoot her so candful, Probably
less than five. Ever in the ab Hut no a
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(30:15):
tell about her emphasize her sense of humor and her
protective instincts. She was quick to speak her mind and
stand up for herself. Her family knew her to be cheerful, focused, hardworking.
She was a well adjusted kid who they trusted and
based on their knowledge of her as a daughter and
(30:36):
a sister and a cousin, they didn't believe Sandy would
take her own life. It was incomprehensible to them. It
didn't match the person they knew. But during this reporting,
I found out a lot of things they didn't know
about Sandy, things that were happening in her life, and
as painful as it is to contemplate now, there's probably
(30:58):
a lot they didn't know about how she was feeling.
Sandy died surrounded by police paraphernalia. Her dashboard held a
shifts schedule card, a duty rig and newspaper clippings about cops,
and she was found in a location where cops liked
to gather. Her family believed that she was protected in
(31:20):
the presence of police, but I think it's more likely
that all that time she spent hanging out with them
was actually an opportunity for abuse. From what I've discovered,
it seems obvious that at least some police officers took
advantage of Sandy, pursuing inappropriate sexual relationships with the teenager,
and in this climate, Sandy became pregnant and had an
(31:43):
abortion in secret. If she was being mistreated by police,
then I imagined she would have felt very alone, possibly scared,
and she probably didn't know how to make it stop.
Sandy kept these painful parts of her life hidden. She
presented to the outside world as fine, and to her
(32:07):
family this was strong evidence that she couldn't have died
by suicide because they didn't see it coming. Their assumption
about suicide was that if Sandy had been considering it,
her pain would have been so visible it could not
go unnoticed. But that's not always the case. And if
(32:29):
you think about human nature, what makes it up? Purpose, meaning, contribution,
and connection. Thomas Joyner is a researcher at Florida State University.
He spends his days researching ways to prevent suicide. It's
a deep puzzle about human nature about why this would happen.
The bills have not been able to answer this, why
(32:51):
Sandy would have thought that this was the best option
for her, And this question is the subject of Thomas's research,
which explores what's happening in the minds of people who
are suicidal. If you become that convinced that you're a
burden on other people, and if you feel like you're
(33:12):
disconnected and cut off, ostracized, alienated, if you feel those
two things deeply and then also permanently that they're intractable,
that they'll never change, that mixture is the danger zone
where people might take their lives. Of those who find
themselves in this dangerous zone, a feeling deeply alienated, a
(33:36):
burden to others, and convinced that those feelings will never change.
Not all attempts suicide. The vast majority of people who
experience suicidal ideation do not act on it. To put
it in perspective, around forty six thousand people die from
suicide every year in the US, about a million more attempted,
(33:57):
and many many more. Around twelve million peopleeople seriously think
about it. Yeah, it's one thing to talk about death
in the abstract, but to actually face it in reality
totally different matter. Not everybody has. The wreck was the fearlessness, pain, tolerance,
(34:18):
even practical knowledge to have the capacity to even enact suicide,
even if they really genuinely desire to do so. Did
Sandy have those things? I know she had access to
a gun her father's, and her brother Michael actually told
me that he'd seen Sandy take it on a few occasions.
(34:39):
Sandy said she was borrowing the gun for target practice.
So it follows that Sandy would have known how to
use it. And suicide as a form of death, of course,
is fearsome and scary and daunting, and so to face
it fully, to steer it down, you need a capacity
to do that. Not everybody has it. I told Thomas
(35:03):
about the beals is vivid memory of Sandy as a happy,
high functioning teenager. Sometimes it does look like that suicide
does look sudden. What does that mean? Does it mean
it was truly impulsive? Or might it mean, for example,
that the person was very successful in concealing their ongoing
(35:24):
misery and planning. And I think it's the latter. I
think it's clearly the latter. But there is debate about that,
and that can hurt to the loved ones. And it
seems like she would have told us, you know, we're
the family, we're the loved ones. But a way to
understand that is that she felt maybe that this was
(35:44):
a profound burden that she's carrying, that she's a burden
to everybody. She felt that maybe on the inside, to
share that with others, in her view, might have further
burdened them. Sudden death in anyone is a tragedy, and
(36:08):
it doesn't matter what the cause was. That's gonna grieve
families and trouble families for years or even decades. And
then to add the additional layer of it wasn't just
an accident. Or an illness. They took their own laves.
That hurts, That really hurts. And I don't think it
(36:31):
need be very different than a car accident or a
heart attack. But to get to that place, you have
to have a particular understanding of the suicidal mindset that
most people, most families don't have. I asked Thomas what
to make of the fact that Sandy had plans for
the future. She was moving to Maine, she was actively
(36:53):
pursuing a career in law enforcement. Even her abortion could
be considered a sign that she was thinking ahead, planning
for the life she wanted. She was still balancing her
checkbook right before she died. If you have plans, it
either means that suicide's not on your mind at all.
(37:14):
It can mean that, or if you have plans, it
can mean that there's a struggle going on in your mind,
an argument, a debate between death and life, an ambivalence
that's going back and forth, tilting back and forth, and
when it tilts toward death, planning for future activities ceases
(37:36):
pretty much, and planning for suicide kicks in. And then
when it tilts back towards the other side of the ambivalence,
towards life, then you might, you know, put the suicide
planning on the shelf, so to speak, and kick in
plans for activities. And so most go through this ambivalence
(37:58):
process than most or all will have plans for tomorrow,
plans for next week, just like getting one else. Well,
it's a striking concept that someone could be planning their
life one minute then end at the next And it
made me think once more about the cardboard under Sandy's tires.
(38:19):
Could Sandy have been experiencing a struggle in her mind,
feeling ambivalence between life and death. Maybe at some point
she was planning on leaving the pole lyard until she
made a new plan. I told all of this to Kim,
(38:40):
what I learned from Thomas about suicide and what I
gleaned from Paul, who reviewed Sandy's autopsy with me, and
she listened, took in all the facts with a gentle
smile and a deferential nod. It was something she would
need to think about, she told me. So we casually
said goodbye, and I expected to hear from her soon,
(39:01):
and I did, because as I've been reporting the story,
Kim has relentlessly continued her own parallel investigation. Every time
I spoke to her, she had her sight set on
something new, a new document to obtain or piece of
evidence to examine. On her list of critical items to
track down was Sandy's full medical file, which was held
(39:23):
at the Medical Examiner's office in Maryland. Kim left me
this voice memo after her last visit there. Okay, it
is I think the twenty second at three o'clock. I
just left the Medical Examiner's office. And when I got there,
it was like God just opened the doors, because the
(39:46):
door just opened, and she's like, Okay, come on in.
So I got right up to the fourth floor and
this really nice lady named Linda, and she was just
most helpful and called the medical records. Medical records were
foramiliar with my name already, which was kind of cool,
you know. And I've was showing her, Oh, I have
the autopsy report. I don't need the autopsy report. I
(40:07):
need the medical records. I need slides, I need anything
else in there that could help me get this case reopened.
Although she already had Sandy's autopsy, she knew it was
only part of the file on her cousin's death. She
wanted to see what else she might be able to
discover hidden in the depths of the archives. Specifically, she
(40:28):
was looking for biological evidence the sperm that was collected
from Sandy's body to see if it could be tested
for DNA, and she was looking for photos, which she
hoped would offer new insight into Sandy's death. And after
about a half hour, Mike came out and very nice guy.
He's retired firefighter, a retired vet from army. He said,
(40:51):
for sure, for any DNA, I'm going to have to
get a subpoena. There's absolutely no way around it. He said.
There's probably going to be pictures in there, so that's
where we're Standy is very helpful. I know he'll help me.
I think I've got their curiosity intrigued anyway, so I
do feel like they're gonna help me. Her ultimate goal
(41:13):
was to stumble onto something, anything that might get Sandy's
case reopened, forcing Prince George's County to take a deeper look.
So I don't know, if we could just get them
to open it, that would be really awesome. I don't
likely see that happening because they're pretty convinced that this
(41:35):
is a suicide. Reopening the case would mean that it
would be considered an active investigation. Again. It would mean
that the police might interview Doug, or test the sperm,
or track down the cops that supervised Sandy in the
Explorer program so many years ago. Anyway, that's where we stand.
(41:55):
It was a good meeting, we'll see. Kim flew back
to Texas with a new agenda of trying to get
a subpoena to retrieve and test the DNA in Sandy's file,
But before she could follow through, she received an email.
It was from Bernie Nelson, a cold case detective from
(42:18):
Prince George's County. He wanted to meet Kim in person
to talk. I asked if I could tape the conversation,
and PG County said no. But Kim met with him
and that meeting changed everything. So this is eleven o'clock
on Monday morning. He asks, so how did all this
(42:41):
podcast stuff happen? We've talked a lot about suicide this episode.
If you or someone you know as considering self harm,
please contact the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at one eight
hundred two seven three eight to two, or texts Strength
(43:02):
to Crisis text Line at seven four to one seven
four to one. What Happened to Sandy Beale is hosted
by me Melissa Jelson. It's written and produced by me
and Katrina Norvel. The podcast is edited by Abu Safar,
sound designed by Aaron Kaufman. Jason English is our executive producer.
(43:25):
Research and production assistance by Marisa Brown. To find out
more about my investigation, follow me on Twitter at quasimado.
That's qu as I am a d Oh. Thanks so
much for listening a brand new historical true crime podcast.
(43:49):
When you lay suffering a sudden brutal death starring Alison
william I hope you'll think of me. Erased the Murder
of Elba Saans. She was a sweet, happy, virtuous girl
until she met that man right there. Written and created
by me, Alison Flack. Is it possible? So we're standing
by for your answer. Erased the Murder of Elma Sans
(44:12):
on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen
to your podcasts. When Tracey, who were killed Burns was
two years old, her baby brother died. I was told
that Matthew died in an accident. Her parents told police
she had killed him. I'm Nancy Glass. Join me for
Burden of Guilt, the new podcast that tells the truth
(44:35):
an incredible story of a toddler who was framed for murder.
Listen to Burden of Guilt on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts,
or wherever you get your podcasts. The System's broken. I
said something's wrong her, you know, whenever a woe is
(44:56):
allowed to kill my two kids. Unrestorable is a new
true crime podcast that investigates the case of Catherine Hoggle,
a mother accused of murder. Despite signs that Catherine Hoggle
took her tiny children one by one into the night,
never to come home again, she has yet to stand trial.
(45:16):
Listen to Unrestorable on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or
wherever you get your podcasts, and to hear the show
completely ad free, subscribe to the iHeart True Crime Plus channel,
available exclusively on Apple Podcasts Plus. You'll get ad free
access to dozens of hit true crime shows like Paper Ghosts, Betrayal,
(45:36):
and The Idaho Massacre. Hey guys, Britton Laurie here from
Life on Cop podcast. We are the number one Dating
in Relationships podcasts in Australia because we do things different
down on them. We cover everything from dating, sex, relationships,
and pop cult sha. We chat with a lot of
experts about things like love, cheating, narcissist because we both
(45:57):
dated one, long distance, fertility community and breakups, and we
talk to some people you might be familiar with, like
Rebel Wilson, Matthew Hussy, Stephen Bartlett, Joan McNally, and Mark Manson.
You can join us while we unpack it all by
searching for life on cut Now, wherever you get your podcasts,
You're going to die. I guess I should have softened
that a little. Someday you're gonna die. We all are.
(46:19):
I'm Kyle McMahon, and after my mom passed away, I
went on a journey to talk with the world's foremost
experts on death and grief for my new series Death
Grief and others we don't discuss, from conducting a seance
to talking with near death experiencers and everything in between.
I hope you'll join me on that journey, and you
should probably do it soon, because who knows how long
you're going to be around death, Grief and others we
(46:40):
don't discuss. Available now on the iHeartRadio app or wherever
you get your podcasts.
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