May 4, 2022 • 47 mins
The Beal family is faced with a daunting task that threatens to divide them. Sandy’s final words are cast in a new light.
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trial that shipstation dot Com slash leaders. Before we begin,
please note this series includes talk of suicide and sexual violence.
Please take care while listening. It was it was just
(02:41):
a strange turn of how it all unfolded for Cours.
You know, I'm just a little pass right now. I
know all the people feel different. I'm just putting my
feelings out there. This is a crazyness that we were
told Jude can do it. It just didn't know a
(03:03):
lot of things. Just didn't some of the stuff I'm
been about to tell you. I mean, if you're pissed now,
you're gonna get even more pissed off because I never
knew anything. I ain't never saiding. It's it's like for
you to hear all of this, Well, it's not what
I want to hear, but if it is what it is, Yeah, No,
(03:26):
I'm not buying the bullshit that. Yeah, I need to
stiff shot from iHeart Radio. I'm Melissa Jelson and this
is what happened to Sandy Beal an iHeart original podcast,
(03:55):
Chapter eight, Good Grief. The first time I went to
Maine to meet with the Beal family, it was summer
and the drive from the airport was lush and green.
It was on this trip when Ronnie, Sandy's youngest brother,
(04:15):
asked me what I hoped to achieve with the podcast,
When Sandy's mother, Joanne gave me the coat her daughter
was wearing on the night of her death, and when
I first got a real sense of Sandy as a person,
the Sandy the family described to me, she was fearless.
Five months later, I flew back to Maine with my
producer to see the Bells in person again. It was
(04:39):
late fall and the trees were a mix of orange
and brown and green. I was returning under different circumstances
than my first trip. This visit had a particular objective
to observe and record an emergency family meeting that Kim
had called. Kim wanted to share with the Bells what
she'd come to believe was true that Sandy had died
(05:01):
by suicide. The meeting was set to take place at
Sandy's brother, Stephen's home. To set the scene, imagine a tidy,
ranch style house, a kitchen teeming with food, two small
dogs running around underfoot. I arrived before the rest of
the family and made small talk with Stephen and his wife.
(05:25):
Soon Michael and his wife showed up with Joanne, who
was wearing sued cowboy boots be dazzled with rhinestones. We hugged,
talked about booster shots and COVID variants, and we waited
together for Kim. Until you can hear the nervousness in
(05:59):
Ki's voice leading up to this meeting. She was really
worried about how the Bills would respond to what she
had to tell them. She didn't know if they'd see
things her way, or if they'd reject her position and
judge her for siding with the police. For decades, there'd
been a collective story that they all agreed on around
(06:21):
Sandy's death that whatever happened to Sandy, she hadn't died
by suicide. Kim had previously been part of the group,
In fact, the leader of the group, the one pushing
to reopen Sandy's case, convinced that there was something there. Now,
she worried that she'd blown Sandy's death up into something
(06:42):
it wasn't and wasted their time, added extra pain to
their suffering. She knew the Bills loved her and were
appreciative of all her work, but there was a part
of her that was scared she would need to beg
for their forgiveness. My notes are like, I'm really hoping
that i'd have time to sit down, but it's just
(07:03):
been too hard. So it is when it is, do
you have tea by tea. Within a few minutes of
Kim's arrival, the group migrated into the living room and
took seats around a boom mic that I'd brought. It
was a strange dichotomy, the most intimate of conversations undertaken
(07:25):
with the knowledge that everything was being recorded. Kim sat
in a large, pillowy recliner that seemed to swallow her frame.
Her feet didn't quite reach the floor, and she kept
readjusting her position, trying to get comfortable. I think that
the answers that I'm going to give you today will
naturally make that a closing place. Anyway, there are still
(07:47):
some answers that need to happen, but I think as
far as the story's concerned, it's shifted, and so I'm
hoping that we get more information after this, but we
may not. So I just want to kind of share
with you what we've uncovered in the past few months
since we saw you in June. Anyway, armed with her notes,
(08:10):
Kim began recounting her conversation with Bernie. She told them
how she went in fighting with a head of steam,
arguing and asking critical questions. She told the family how
they discussed Sandy's efforts to become a police officer and
the ride alongs that she did likely is part of
an official Explorer program. And so I'm just listening and
(08:32):
i said, well, what about the Explorer's program. I'm like,
so explained that. He said it was a way that
we encouraged people in high school to come because cops
and they're having a hard time recruiting new police officers,
so they were going to the high schools, hence the
ride along program and the Explorers. And I'm like, so,
you have a girl that wants to be a cop,
(08:53):
and she's doing everything you guys ask her to do.
She told them how Bernie acknowledged that there was likely
serious sexual misconduct taking place, and how she was disarmed
by his compassion and his frankness. He said, if I
was on the watch, they would have all been terminated
because I wouldn't have put up with any of that.
(09:13):
And I'm like, you know, if you see all these
questions that we have everything we've already talked about, no
answers have been given, all these different things that are discrepancies,
and you can see from our point of view that
we have questions. He's like, I absolutely see from your
point of view all of this may everything you're saying
makes sense. I watched Kim as she attempted to replicate
(09:33):
her conversation with Bernie, trying to create the same conditions
that had led to her own awakening. She spoke calmly
and carefully, referring often to her notes, before she got
to the piece of evidence that had clicked everything into
place for her. To help them visualize the scene, she
printed from the Internet a picture of an old Ford Pinto,
(09:54):
just like the one Sandy used to drive. So if
you look at this, this is the steering wheel, so
it matches up if you were to brace it. There
here you can pass that if you were to brace
it. It It just started feeling like making sense to me
that she did use that That's the only possible way
(10:17):
that she could have pulled that trigger, as if it
was had support of something. But when he said that
the gunpowder was on the steering wheel and it was
spraying back and I'm like, he goes. He said, Kim,
we can't. We can't deny the trajectory of this. When
when he said the there's gunpowder on the steering wheel,
(10:41):
that was kind of like, that's kind of very futable.
So it was almost like an Aha moment, like a
wake up call of oh my god, that could possibly
really be true. This Kim pivoted away from the forensic
(11:02):
evidence and started speaking from her gut. She now had
a new understanding of Sandy and her last months, and
she shared this with the Beels, how she believed Sandy
had been used and abused by men in power, and
how this had broken her. I think someone was there before.
I think she was alone then, and this is just
(11:24):
my knowing her and thinking through the situation. It's dark,
it's twenty seven degrees outside, she just had sex with somebody.
She's alone, she's trying to get out, and I think
the trying to get out was possibly the straw that
broke the camel's back, and she just said fuck it.
Joanne had been listening intently. Now she interrupted, I think
(11:48):
you're right. I think the last hurrah was she was
trying to get out. Joanne's words they rushed out of
her as though they had been waiting to be released.
I think she just said a kid, and she had
already been rejected, she had already had the abortion, and
I think the whole thing just blew up. And maybe
(12:09):
I'm wrong, And I kept that to myself for a
long Huh. I did not expect to hear Joanne agree
with Kim and acknowledge so openly that she believed Sandy
had died by suicide. And I got the sense that
Kim had given her permission to say the hard part
(12:32):
out loud, and that it came as a tremendous relief.
The room was quiet. Everyone seemed to be reflecting on
the Sandy that they knew, each of them conjuring their
own memory of Sandy and trying to square Kim's new
story with their own. And then Stephen broke the silence. Well,
(12:52):
I'm going to be the man out. I dispute what
the guy says. I flat ass disputed it. I don't
think she put the goddamn gun on the steering wheel.
And yes, they can replicate it, they don't want to
replicate it. I can put a fucking man on the
goddamn moon and they can replicate that I know Sandy.
Sandy did not shoot herself. I'm going to go to
(13:16):
my frigging grave saying that, you know, and it's compelling. Now,
I'll give you that. You know, the guy's trying, and
I get that he's trying to be empathetic with our situation.
But you know, sorry, he's selling I ain't buying it.
No pick again, I'm sorry. I didn't buying it. Why.
(13:47):
Stephen left the room upset, but about five minutes later
he came back and rejoined his family. Trust me, folks,
I'm not trying to you know, it's nothing about it,
but I take issue with what it is or trying
to say. And you know, and I understand if you
know other people don't share my stance. I get it.
(14:11):
You know, this is something that I you're right there,
I gotta grap with on my own. Right now, I
don't see it yet. You know, maybe something might take something,
a little something else to make me see the light.
You know, maybe I'm seeing what I want to see.
Don't know, could be, but right now I do know.
(14:33):
You're not going to convince me that she did it.
As the family continued to talk, the sun streaming in
the windows and filling the room with light. It felt
as though I was seeing them shift and adjust their
beliefs in real time, torn between two versions of an
event that had defined their lives. Even Joanne, who had
(14:53):
sounded so sure at first, vacillated returning back again to
the police dug and all the sketchy behavior she witnessed
in the aftermath of Sandy's death. Sometimes she seemed to
travel this distance between suicide and murder in the same breath.
Stephen was the most vocal about his views, while his
(15:14):
brothers Michael and Ronnie quietly contemplated the situation without giving
much away. They listened, nodded, winced at times, and then
Ronnie spoke up in his calm and reserved way, Well,
you know, for forty four years and nine months, we've
(15:40):
tried like every scenario. Did she did, she not? She did,
Why she didn't, Who's responsible? We don't know. Then, I
guess we're never going to know. Even if somebody come
forward today, yeah I did it. No one's going to jail,
(16:03):
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CuriosityStream dot com. I watched the bills leave that meeting
with Kim with a demanding task ahead. They could choose
(20:13):
to believe what Kim now believed, that Sandy died by suicide,
or they could continue with the story they'd believed for decades.
And I could understand why they'd take the latter route.
Both stories were compelling, both were possible, and the journey
to replace a long held belief with something new and
contradictory is not an easy one. I think that we
(20:36):
face this kind of crossroads many times in life, and
we know again we're given the choice between the safety
of holding on to what we knew, or the ambiguity
of releasing what we thought we knew and reaching for
something a little more adequate, recognizing that that process is
(20:58):
not a comfortable one. Robert Neiemeier is a professor of
psychology at the University of Memphis and an authority on
bereavement and grief. Well, of course, this is a larger
question that goes beyond grief and bereavement. We can hold
on to our own views, sometimes almost in a kind
of hostile stance of refusing to accept the alternative story.
(21:22):
And that's the path of defensiveness and sameness and anger
and resistance. But the other is the path of grieving,
maybe coming to terms with the reality of tragedy in
life and the impermanence of love and the ambiguity of
(21:45):
our position as human beings. Kim let go of what
she'd believed, and it was really painful. She told me
that she felt as though she was grieving Sandy's death
all over again. For the family, I understood the cost
of changing their minds to accept that Sandy had died
(22:05):
by suicide required them to redefine their understanding of her
as a person and, by extension, their relationship to her.
It often, especially in the case of traumatic loss, shakes
up our assumptive world, as we call it. That whole
world of assumptions about how life is or should be,
(22:27):
our sense of justice, our sense of control, our sense
of the reality we thought we were living, or the
reality of a loved one we thought we knew, can
be deeply unsettling, as we have to essentially revise our
life narrative, the story of who we are and whose
we are, in the context of often a significant and
(22:53):
soul shattering loss. The dramatic thing for them, of course,
is that they have experienced the shattering of their narrative
their story not once, but twice, forty four years apart.
Robert explained to me that grieving a suicide often brings
up complicated feelings for families, such as guilt and anger,
(23:16):
the failure to protect or save that person, particularly if
we are a parent, particularly if we are an older sibling,
where we feel some duty of care toward this vulnerable person,
and somehow we miss the signals. We didn't have the
(23:36):
the deep understanding of what was happening for them at
the time that might have led us to make a difference.
All of that has denied us, and so we're left
with a struggle to realign the relationship with them and
to figure out how they fit into our lives. Now.
(23:59):
What I hope it rings though, is compassion of her
as the young woman she was attempting to move into
a life that had its own audacious and probably chaotic
and likely complicated dimensions. Ironically, they have ended up having
to sort out those complications for her in a proxy
(24:22):
way as they attempt to make sense of her life,
maybe at a time that she herself could not making
sense of Sandy and the complications she was struggling with.
Is what I've tried to do with this podcast and
the complications in Sandy's life, they had something in common.
(24:44):
They all revolved around law enforcement, and so in a
way did her death, which I think is telling. I
found myself returning to a single page in Sandy's full
police file where Detective Selski cataloged the evidence in Sandy's
car and specifically the items sitting on her dashboard. The
(25:07):
items on her dash they all had to do with cops.
There was the duty rig for carrying police equipment, a
lone business card from a PG County cop, clippings about
police officers, presumably from a local newspaper, and a card
showing the shifts schedule. I thought it was strange that
Sandy would store so many items, including a belt, on
(25:30):
her small dashboard. Wouldn't they fall down when she drove?
As I read and reread this list, picturing the scene,
I suddenly imagined Sandy placing the items there ceremoniously surrounding
herself with police paraphernalia to make a statement. I had
long been suspicious of the location of Sandy's death because
(25:51):
of who hung out there, but I could now see
how the poleyard might have been a symbolic choice by Sandy. Doug,
the state trooper, the instructors and the Explorer program, and
the cops who called Shazhlski. I think a good many
of them hurt Sandy. They took advantage of her youthful passion,
(26:12):
her blind ambition, and her desire for acceptance. As she
wrote in her letter to Doug, I never want another
man to ever want me. I just want to leave
and forget the pain. Sandy was looking for love and
she found cruelty. The police, they didn't have to murder
Sandy to be complicit in her death, and I think
(26:35):
they deserve some of the blame for the loss of
a teenage girl. I think there are people who know
exactly what happened to Sandy. They just don't want to
talk to me. And back then they didn't want to
talk to the Bills either. To me. This is the
tragic heart of the story. For all the questions the
(26:57):
Bells had, there were people with answer. If any of
the police officers who knew Sandy had been brave enough
to talk to the Balls, if Prince George's County Police
had launched a misconduct probe in the wake of Sandy's
death and been transparent with her family, And if anyone
had listened to the balls, really listened to what they
(27:17):
had to say, then maybe forty five years of doubt
and uncertainty might have been avoided. Maybe Sandy she could
have been put to rest. A brand new historical true
crime podcast. The year is eighteen hundred, City Hall, New York.
(27:41):
The first murder trial in the American judicial system as
trial for the charge of murder. Even with defense lawyers
Alexander Hamilton and Erinburr on the case, this is probably
the most famous trial you've never heard of. When you
lay suffering a sudden, violent, brutal death, I hope you'll
think of me. Starring Alison Williams. I don't need anything simplified,
(28:05):
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(28:28):
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(28:50):
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(29:15):
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(29:45):
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(30:07):
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(30:30):
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(30:50):
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(32:50):
gathered to Maine, I reached out to the Beills periodically
to check in on how they were doing. I was
curious how they had processed the new information, but I
was also hyper where that their capacity for an interest
in discussing Sandy's case with me was coming to a close.
My investigation had found answers, but not the answers that
(33:10):
they had necessarily wanted, since they were somewhat let down,
Although they never missed an opportunity to express gratitude for
my work. Here's what Stephen had to say when I
called them one afternoon. I'm just going on with life, really,
I mean kind of going bad as globe. I mean
(33:32):
it was situation normal, that's not it. I don't know
what else to say. I know myself, I've always felt
all along that we're never going to really get to
the bottom of it. And it was nice, as you know,
to try to get to where we got now, which
is good, but it was just it's for me. I'm
(33:55):
always going to have questions and it's never going to
be really quite resolved the way to my satisfaction. Kim's
epiphany from meeting with Bernie, it hadn't really changed anything
for him. I had those gut feelings when you know,
when you just kind of know something, you know what
I mean, I'm looking at through a through jaded eyes.
(34:18):
I am so jaded, you know, I need to look
at it through a different lens. Does that make any sense?
When I reached Michael, the oldest of the Bier brothers,
he agreed with Stephen and told me he still has
significant questions about the gun. So you still you still
(34:38):
believe that probably someone else was involved. Sure, I certainly do.
The police, uh get pretty good, you know, they can
they can dig sh it up, and they can they
can bury stuff. So I'm sure there's a lot of
stuff that's buried and no one's going to know about it. Ronnie,
the youngest of the Bills, he just wanted to put
(35:01):
the whole thing behind him. He's getting married soon, starting
a new chapter of his life. He doesn't want to
go there anymore. Like you said in the meeting, he
considers at the end of the road. I came to
understand through my conversations with the brothers that it was
(35:23):
very possible the family would be living with these conflicting
stories of Sandy's death and therefore her life forever, and
maybe that was all right. Well, we've seen over and
over now really twenty five years of search, the majority
of people are resilient to almost anything. George Bonano is
(35:44):
a psychologist at Columbia University. His research focuses on how
human beings cope with bereavement, loss, and other potentially traumatic events.
You know, everybody's moved on and lived their lives, you know,
and it's now a person four decades in the past
who they loved or who they had complex relationships with,
and now they have a kind of a very complicated
(36:07):
story about that person. But you know, there's probably enough
distance that they can probably say, Okay, well, you know,
we'll maybe hold both of these but you know, I
don't think it would be as crucial or as critical,
and they're wet to their well being to have a
clear picture anymore. In a sense, the need to have
them reconciled is maybe long past. George's research has found
(36:30):
that most people possess a natural resilience to trauma and loss.
The person is able to you know, concentrate, laugh, do
what they need to do, take care of people they love,
and be cared for by people they love, and they
love them, you know, be close, have intimate interactions, and
they you know, they're able to experience joy, and they're
(36:52):
able to experience pain, and they're able to be to
think about other things, and they simply continue on with
their life. They don't forget the person. They just continue
living the life in the present. And if you think
about it, human beings have been around for a long
time and we've thrived all over the planet, and we've
(37:15):
always been able to keep moving on and keep going.
That's just human nature. Kim has moved houses since she
visited the Beals in Maine, resettling in a country home
halfway between Houston and Austin. Being in the country has helped,
she said. The blue bonnets and wildflowers are out. The
(37:39):
trees outside her house are over three hundred years old.
She keeps a photo of Sandy on her desk, but
she's put her files about the case out of sight
in a closet, still close enough to access if she
needs them, but not lining the walls of her bedroom
like they used to Sandy's case. It's been a source
of consistency in her life for decades, something to focus
(38:02):
her boundless energy on, give her purpose, and now she
considers it over. She's let go for the most part.
She has answers, though she says she still needs to
find closure. She wants to go back to the pole
yard and have a ceremony there to say goodbye before
(38:25):
the family meeting. One of Kim's biggest concerns was disappointing Joanne.
She feared that spending all those years investigating the case
had prolonged Joanne's pain and stood in the way of healing.
It's been a long time, hasn't it. Yeah, fighting us,
It's a long time fighting it. Yeah. So I'm most
(38:47):
concerned mostly about you. I've had a few weeks to
process it, and I'm still struggling with it. So just grieving,
you know, I know what you mean. I was just
I think it was Melissa, that this might be the
last sit in that I might sit in. It depends
on how I feel at the time, you know, because
(39:10):
it drums everything back up. It's hard and it's hot,
and that's the way it is. But the journey it
had bonded the two women. I got the sense that
Joanne was profoundly touched by the years that Kim had
spent in service to Sandy. She was trying to hold
(39:31):
people accountable, and she had kept Sandy's memory alive. We've
come a long way with this. You have Dug and
Doug and Doug and Dog. There's been many things that
I have thought of and thought of and thought and
just like we all have questions, but oh following never
(39:54):
get all the answers. We've had a lot, We've learned
a lot. I understand why the bills still have questions,
because I do too. There's still so much unknown about
the network of police officers whose phone numbers Sandy wrote
down in her address books, police officers who took her
(40:17):
on ride alongs and drove her home at night after
hanging out at the FOP lodge. But I'm pretty sure
I know how she felt when she died, because she
wrote about it. I've reread her note to Doug many times,
and what's clear is how alone, used and powerless she felt.
It's a stark reversal from where she was when she
began policing, described by her friends and family as strong, ambitious,
(40:42):
and secure. The main criticism I've heard about my podcast
is that it's anti cop, that if a teen girl
was victimized in an Explorer program that was in the
nineteen seventies and doesn't reflect on what's happening now. But
I want to tell you about another Sandy. Sandra Birchmore
died by suicide during the pandemic while pregnant, allegedly with
(41:06):
the child of a married older cop who was an
instructor in the Explorer program she had attended. A misconduct
probe launched in the wake of her death has resulted
in the resignation of one officer, with two others placed
on paid leave. I think there are many many more
Sandy's out there, girls and women who have been sexualized, mistreated,
(41:31):
and eaten up by a police culture where masculinity reigns.
Sandy wasn't an anomaly, Joanne. She still has questions. She
still hopes that Sandy Sheridan will come forward. She still
believes that Doug was in the pole yard the night
(41:53):
Sandy died. She even had a dream about him recently
where she confronted him outside a courthouse and gave him
a piece of her mind. But ultimately she's come to
accept the possibility that Sandy died by suicide. She thinks
that Sandy was consumed by hurt and felt as though
she had no one to turn to, and she blames
(42:13):
the police for putting her daughter in this position. Thinking
back to when Sandy died, the worst part was the
not knowing, she said, having only the fragments of Sandy's
story and not being able to put them together in
a way that made any sense. Today, she's learned how
to live with the not knowing, the lingering ambiguity, the
(42:36):
unanswered questions. She's found a way to put all that
to the side, diffuse it of its power. Maybe she
wasn't supposed to know everything, she said, It's just how
it is, and she's at peace. So anyway, it was
a hard time, and uh, I don't know, We've been
(43:01):
through enough a lot in this family. I say the
good lawd was good to me to give me a
life to live this law. I weighed two pounds and
three ounces at birth. They told my mother and father
I wouldn't love twenty four hours and here I am
Edie too. Joanne hopes she'll see Sandy in heaven, but
(43:24):
for now, she's put the whole thing in a good place.
She needed to. She's a fighter, always has been, but
it was time for her to stop. Well, Honey, I've
got to let you go. Okay? What Happened to Sandy
Beale is hosted by Me Melissa Jolson. It's written and
(43:46):
produced by me and Katrina Norvell. The podcast is edited
by Abu Safar. Sound designed by Aaron Kaufman. Jason English
is our executive producer. Research and production assistance by Marissa Brown.
Special thanks to Duncan Radell, Bethan Macaluso, Nikki etr and
(44:08):
Pete Monica. To find out more about my investigation, follow
me on Twitter at Quasimado. That's qu as I am Ado,
a brand new historical true crime podcast. When you lay
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(44:29):
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She was a sweet happy, virtuous girl until she met
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Erased the murder of Elma Sans on the iHeartRadio app,
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please note this series includes talk of suicide and sexual violence.
Please take care while listening. It was it was just
(02:41):
a strange turn of how it all unfolded for Cours.
You know, I'm just a little pass right now. I
know all the people feel different. I'm just putting my
feelings out there. This is a crazyness that we were
told Jude can do it. It just didn't know a
(03:03):
lot of things. Just didn't some of the stuff I'm
been about to tell you. I mean, if you're pissed now,
you're gonna get even more pissed off because I never
knew anything. I ain't never saiding. It's it's like for
you to hear all of this, Well, it's not what
I want to hear, but if it is what it is, Yeah, No,
(03:26):
I'm not buying the bullshit that. Yeah, I need to
stiff shot from iHeart Radio. I'm Melissa Jelson and this
is what happened to Sandy Beal an iHeart original podcast,
(03:55):
Chapter eight, Good Grief. The first time I went to
Maine to meet with the Beal family, it was summer
and the drive from the airport was lush and green.
It was on this trip when Ronnie, Sandy's youngest brother,
(04:15):
asked me what I hoped to achieve with the podcast,
When Sandy's mother, Joanne gave me the coat her daughter
was wearing on the night of her death, and when
I first got a real sense of Sandy as a person,
the Sandy the family described to me, she was fearless.
Five months later, I flew back to Maine with my
producer to see the Bells in person again. It was
(04:39):
late fall and the trees were a mix of orange
and brown and green. I was returning under different circumstances
than my first trip. This visit had a particular objective
to observe and record an emergency family meeting that Kim
had called. Kim wanted to share with the Bells what
she'd come to believe was true that Sandy had died
(05:01):
by suicide. The meeting was set to take place at
Sandy's brother, Stephen's home. To set the scene, imagine a tidy,
ranch style house, a kitchen teeming with food, two small
dogs running around underfoot. I arrived before the rest of
the family and made small talk with Stephen and his wife.
(05:25):
Soon Michael and his wife showed up with Joanne, who
was wearing sued cowboy boots be dazzled with rhinestones. We hugged,
talked about booster shots and COVID variants, and we waited
together for Kim. Until you can hear the nervousness in
(05:59):
Ki's voice leading up to this meeting. She was really
worried about how the Bills would respond to what she
had to tell them. She didn't know if they'd see
things her way, or if they'd reject her position and
judge her for siding with the police. For decades, there'd
been a collective story that they all agreed on around
(06:21):
Sandy's death that whatever happened to Sandy, she hadn't died
by suicide. Kim had previously been part of the group,
In fact, the leader of the group, the one pushing
to reopen Sandy's case, convinced that there was something there. Now,
she worried that she'd blown Sandy's death up into something
(06:42):
it wasn't and wasted their time, added extra pain to
their suffering. She knew the Bills loved her and were
appreciative of all her work, but there was a part
of her that was scared she would need to beg
for their forgiveness. My notes are like, I'm really hoping
that i'd have time to sit down, but it's just
(07:03):
been too hard. So it is when it is, do
you have tea by tea. Within a few minutes of
Kim's arrival, the group migrated into the living room and
took seats around a boom mic that I'd brought. It
was a strange dichotomy, the most intimate of conversations undertaken
(07:25):
with the knowledge that everything was being recorded. Kim sat
in a large, pillowy recliner that seemed to swallow her frame.
Her feet didn't quite reach the floor, and she kept
readjusting her position, trying to get comfortable. I think that
the answers that I'm going to give you today will
naturally make that a closing place. Anyway, there are still
(07:47):
some answers that need to happen, but I think as
far as the story's concerned, it's shifted, and so I'm
hoping that we get more information after this, but we
may not. So I just want to kind of share
with you what we've uncovered in the past few months
since we saw you in June. Anyway, armed with her notes,
(08:10):
Kim began recounting her conversation with Bernie. She told them
how she went in fighting with a head of steam,
arguing and asking critical questions. She told the family how
they discussed Sandy's efforts to become a police officer and
the ride alongs that she did likely is part of
an official Explorer program. And so I'm just listening and
(08:32):
i said, well, what about the Explorer's program. I'm like,
so explained that. He said it was a way that
we encouraged people in high school to come because cops
and they're having a hard time recruiting new police officers,
so they were going to the high schools, hence the
ride along program and the Explorers. And I'm like, so,
you have a girl that wants to be a cop,
(08:53):
and she's doing everything you guys ask her to do.
She told them how Bernie acknowledged that there was likely
serious sexual misconduct taking place, and how she was disarmed
by his compassion and his frankness. He said, if I
was on the watch, they would have all been terminated
because I wouldn't have put up with any of that.
(09:13):
And I'm like, you know, if you see all these
questions that we have everything we've already talked about, no
answers have been given, all these different things that are discrepancies,
and you can see from our point of view that
we have questions. He's like, I absolutely see from your
point of view all of this may everything you're saying
makes sense. I watched Kim as she attempted to replicate
(09:33):
her conversation with Bernie, trying to create the same conditions
that had led to her own awakening. She spoke calmly
and carefully, referring often to her notes, before she got
to the piece of evidence that had clicked everything into
place for her. To help them visualize the scene, she
printed from the Internet a picture of an old Ford Pinto,
(09:54):
just like the one Sandy used to drive. So if
you look at this, this is the steering wheel, so
it matches up if you were to brace it. There
here you can pass that if you were to brace
it. It It just started feeling like making sense to me
that she did use that That's the only possible way
(10:17):
that she could have pulled that trigger, as if it
was had support of something. But when he said that
the gunpowder was on the steering wheel and it was
spraying back and I'm like, he goes. He said, Kim,
we can't. We can't deny the trajectory of this. When
when he said the there's gunpowder on the steering wheel,
(10:41):
that was kind of like, that's kind of very futable.
So it was almost like an Aha moment, like a
wake up call of oh my god, that could possibly
really be true. This Kim pivoted away from the forensic
(11:02):
evidence and started speaking from her gut. She now had
a new understanding of Sandy and her last months, and
she shared this with the Beels, how she believed Sandy
had been used and abused by men in power, and
how this had broken her. I think someone was there before.
I think she was alone then, and this is just
(11:24):
my knowing her and thinking through the situation. It's dark,
it's twenty seven degrees outside, she just had sex with somebody.
She's alone, she's trying to get out, and I think
the trying to get out was possibly the straw that
broke the camel's back, and she just said fuck it.
Joanne had been listening intently. Now she interrupted, I think
(11:48):
you're right. I think the last hurrah was she was
trying to get out. Joanne's words they rushed out of
her as though they had been waiting to be released.
I think she just said a kid, and she had
already been rejected, she had already had the abortion, and
I think the whole thing just blew up. And maybe
(12:09):
I'm wrong, And I kept that to myself for a
long Huh. I did not expect to hear Joanne agree
with Kim and acknowledge so openly that she believed Sandy
had died by suicide. And I got the sense that
Kim had given her permission to say the hard part
(12:32):
out loud, and that it came as a tremendous relief.
The room was quiet. Everyone seemed to be reflecting on
the Sandy that they knew, each of them conjuring their
own memory of Sandy and trying to square Kim's new
story with their own. And then Stephen broke the silence. Well,
(12:52):
I'm going to be the man out. I dispute what
the guy says. I flat ass disputed it. I don't
think she put the goddamn gun on the steering wheel.
And yes, they can replicate it, they don't want to
replicate it. I can put a fucking man on the
goddamn moon and they can replicate that I know Sandy.
Sandy did not shoot herself. I'm going to go to
(13:16):
my frigging grave saying that, you know, and it's compelling. Now,
I'll give you that. You know, the guy's trying, and
I get that he's trying to be empathetic with our situation.
But you know, sorry, he's selling I ain't buying it.
No pick again, I'm sorry. I didn't buying it. Why.
(13:47):
Stephen left the room upset, but about five minutes later
he came back and rejoined his family. Trust me, folks,
I'm not trying to you know, it's nothing about it,
but I take issue with what it is or trying
to say. And you know, and I understand if you
know other people don't share my stance. I get it.
(14:11):
You know, this is something that I you're right there,
I gotta grap with on my own. Right now, I
don't see it yet. You know, maybe something might take something,
a little something else to make me see the light.
You know, maybe I'm seeing what I want to see.
Don't know, could be, but right now I do know.
(14:33):
You're not going to convince me that she did it.
As the family continued to talk, the sun streaming in
the windows and filling the room with light. It felt
as though I was seeing them shift and adjust their
beliefs in real time, torn between two versions of an
event that had defined their lives. Even Joanne, who had
(14:53):
sounded so sure at first, vacillated returning back again to
the police dug and all the sketchy behavior she witnessed
in the aftermath of Sandy's death. Sometimes she seemed to
travel this distance between suicide and murder in the same breath.
Stephen was the most vocal about his views, while his
(15:14):
brothers Michael and Ronnie quietly contemplated the situation without giving
much away. They listened, nodded, winced at times, and then
Ronnie spoke up in his calm and reserved way, Well,
you know, for forty four years and nine months, we've
(15:40):
tried like every scenario. Did she did, she not? She did,
Why she didn't, Who's responsible? We don't know. Then, I
guess we're never going to know. Even if somebody come
forward today, yeah I did it. No one's going to jail,
(16:03):
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(16:28):
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CuriosityStream dot com. I watched the bills leave that meeting
with Kim with a demanding task ahead. They could choose
(20:13):
to believe what Kim now believed, that Sandy died by suicide,
or they could continue with the story they'd believed for decades.
And I could understand why they'd take the latter route.
Both stories were compelling, both were possible, and the journey
to replace a long held belief with something new and
contradictory is not an easy one. I think that we
(20:36):
face this kind of crossroads many times in life, and
we know again we're given the choice between the safety
of holding on to what we knew, or the ambiguity
of releasing what we thought we knew and reaching for
something a little more adequate, recognizing that that process is
(20:58):
not a comfortable one. Robert Neiemeier is a professor of
psychology at the University of Memphis and an authority on
bereavement and grief. Well, of course, this is a larger
question that goes beyond grief and bereavement. We can hold
on to our own views, sometimes almost in a kind
of hostile stance of refusing to accept the alternative story.
(21:22):
And that's the path of defensiveness and sameness and anger
and resistance. But the other is the path of grieving,
maybe coming to terms with the reality of tragedy in
life and the impermanence of love and the ambiguity of
(21:45):
our position as human beings. Kim let go of what
she'd believed, and it was really painful. She told me
that she felt as though she was grieving Sandy's death
all over again. For the family, I understood the cost
of changing their minds to accept that Sandy had died
(22:05):
by suicide required them to redefine their understanding of her
as a person and, by extension, their relationship to her.
It often, especially in the case of traumatic loss, shakes
up our assumptive world, as we call it. That whole
world of assumptions about how life is or should be,
(22:27):
our sense of justice, our sense of control, our sense
of the reality we thought we were living, or the
reality of a loved one we thought we knew, can
be deeply unsettling, as we have to essentially revise our
life narrative, the story of who we are and whose
we are, in the context of often a significant and
(22:53):
soul shattering loss. The dramatic thing for them, of course,
is that they have experienced the shattering of their narrative
their story not once, but twice, forty four years apart.
Robert explained to me that grieving a suicide often brings
up complicated feelings for families, such as guilt and anger,
(23:16):
the failure to protect or save that person, particularly if
we are a parent, particularly if we are an older sibling,
where we feel some duty of care toward this vulnerable person,
and somehow we miss the signals. We didn't have the
(23:36):
the deep understanding of what was happening for them at
the time that might have led us to make a difference.
All of that has denied us, and so we're left
with a struggle to realign the relationship with them and
to figure out how they fit into our lives. Now.
(23:59):
What I hope it rings though, is compassion of her
as the young woman she was attempting to move into
a life that had its own audacious and probably chaotic
and likely complicated dimensions. Ironically, they have ended up having
to sort out those complications for her in a proxy
(24:22):
way as they attempt to make sense of her life,
maybe at a time that she herself could not making
sense of Sandy and the complications she was struggling with.
Is what I've tried to do with this podcast and
the complications in Sandy's life, they had something in common.
(24:44):
They all revolved around law enforcement, and so in a
way did her death, which I think is telling. I
found myself returning to a single page in Sandy's full
police file where Detective Selski cataloged the evidence in Sandy's
car and specifically the items sitting on her dashboard. The
(25:07):
items on her dash they all had to do with cops.
There was the duty rig for carrying police equipment, a
lone business card from a PG County cop, clippings about
police officers, presumably from a local newspaper, and a card
showing the shifts schedule. I thought it was strange that
Sandy would store so many items, including a belt, on
(25:30):
her small dashboard. Wouldn't they fall down when she drove?
As I read and reread this list, picturing the scene,
I suddenly imagined Sandy placing the items there ceremoniously surrounding
herself with police paraphernalia to make a statement. I had
long been suspicious of the location of Sandy's death because
(25:51):
of who hung out there, but I could now see
how the poleyard might have been a symbolic choice by Sandy. Doug,
the state trooper, the instructors and the Explorer program, and
the cops who called Shazhlski. I think a good many
of them hurt Sandy. They took advantage of her youthful passion,
(26:12):
her blind ambition, and her desire for acceptance. As she
wrote in her letter to Doug, I never want another
man to ever want me. I just want to leave
and forget the pain. Sandy was looking for love and
she found cruelty. The police, they didn't have to murder
Sandy to be complicit in her death, and I think
(26:35):
they deserve some of the blame for the loss of
a teenage girl. I think there are people who know
exactly what happened to Sandy. They just don't want to
talk to me. And back then they didn't want to
talk to the Bills either. To me. This is the
tragic heart of the story. For all the questions the
(26:57):
Bells had, there were people with answer. If any of
the police officers who knew Sandy had been brave enough
to talk to the Balls, if Prince George's County Police
had launched a misconduct probe in the wake of Sandy's
death and been transparent with her family, And if anyone
had listened to the balls, really listened to what they
(27:17):
had to say, then maybe forty five years of doubt
and uncertainty might have been avoided. Maybe Sandy she could
have been put to rest. A brand new historical true
crime podcast. The year is eighteen hundred, City Hall, New York.
(27:41):
The first murder trial in the American judicial system as
trial for the charge of murder. Even with defense lawyers
Alexander Hamilton and Erinburr on the case, this is probably
the most famous trial you've never heard of. When you
lay suffering a sudden, violent, brutal death, I hope you'll
think of me. Starring Alison Williams. I don't need anything simplified,
(28:05):
mister Hamilton, Thank you, with Tony Goldwyn as Alexander Hamilton.
Don't be so sad, It doesn't suit you. Written and
created by me Alison Black. Listen to Erased the murder
of Elma San's She was a sweet, happy, virtuous girl
until she met that man. Right there on the iHeartRadio app,
(28:28):
Apple podcasts or wherever you listen to your podcasts. When
Tracy were Keel Burns was two years old, her baby
brother died. I was told that Matthew died in an accident,
and no one really talked about it. Her parents told
police she had killed him. Medical records said that I
(28:50):
killed my baby brother. I'm Nancy Glass. Join me for
Burden of Guilt, the new podcast that tells the true
an incredible story of a toddler who was framed for
murder and how she grew into an adult determined to
get justice and protect her family. While we had prosecuted
(29:15):
some cold cases, this was the coldest. This was frigid.
But how does a two year old get blamed for murder?
She said? We wanted a new life. You just don't
know what it's like when you'll do anything for somebody.
Listen to Burden of Guilt on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you get your podcasts. I noticed Jacob is
(29:45):
not in his crib, so I look in and says
she's not there. So I'm like, Okay, they're not there.
Unrestorable is a new true crime podcast that investigates the
case of Catherine Hoggel, a mother accused of murder. I'm thinking,
you know, like, what's going on, Like this is insane,
like where are my kids? Despite signs that Catherine Hoggle
(30:07):
took her tiny children one by one into the night,
never to come home again, she has yet to stand
trial because soon after her children went missing, she was
declared incompetent to stand trial. We have a blueprint to
get away with murder in the state of Maryland at
this point. In Maryland, if a defendant is found incompetent
and can't be restored to competency, their felony charges are
(30:30):
dismissed after five years. So, as the clock counts down,
Catherine's charges on the verge of being dismissed. What does
justice look like in this case? There's something's wrong her,
you know, whenever one was allowed to kill my two kids.
Listen to Unrestorable on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or
(30:50):
wherever you get your podcasts, and to hear the show completely.
Add free subscribe to the iHeart True Crime Plus channel,
available exclusively on Apple Podcasts Plus. You'll get add free
access to dozens of hit true crime shows like Paper Ghosts, Betrayal,
and The Idaho Massacre. There's a place beyond this place,
(31:15):
a middle ground between the light and the darkness, the natire,
and the zenith. For some, it's a bridge between the
living and the dead. Yet for others, it's something else. Entirely,
it's the place where our nightmares dwell. Each one of
us has touched the other side and felt the presence
of something beyond this world. Welcome to Hip Hop Horror Stories.
(31:40):
I'm your host, Belly, and each week We're going to
take you to the limits of your imagination as we
explore the reality of paranormal experiences. I believe in this
shit for real, and the stories you're about to hear
might make you believe too. Everywhere I look, I saw something,
and I looked closer and noticed there was a good
figure And whatever it is, it's like cave. It's like
(32:02):
it became reality. Listen to Hip Hop Horror Stories on
the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Head into Safeway for great deals throughout the store this week.
At Safeway, get value packs of USDA Choice boneless beef
try Tip roast, or sixteen to twenty count bags of
Waterfront Bistro Extra Jumbo raw shrimp for three ninety seven
(32:23):
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get Signature Farms ninety percent lean ground beef or sixteen
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one free. Visit safeway dot com or head instore for
more deals. In the weeks and months after we all
(32:50):
gathered to Maine, I reached out to the Beills periodically
to check in on how they were doing. I was
curious how they had processed the new information, but I
was also hyper where that their capacity for an interest
in discussing Sandy's case with me was coming to a close.
My investigation had found answers, but not the answers that
(33:10):
they had necessarily wanted, since they were somewhat let down,
Although they never missed an opportunity to express gratitude for
my work. Here's what Stephen had to say when I
called them one afternoon. I'm just going on with life, really,
I mean kind of going bad as globe. I mean
(33:32):
it was situation normal, that's not it. I don't know
what else to say. I know myself, I've always felt
all along that we're never going to really get to
the bottom of it. And it was nice, as you know,
to try to get to where we got now, which
is good, but it was just it's for me. I'm
(33:55):
always going to have questions and it's never going to
be really quite resolved the way to my satisfaction. Kim's
epiphany from meeting with Bernie, it hadn't really changed anything
for him. I had those gut feelings when you know,
when you just kind of know something, you know what
I mean, I'm looking at through a through jaded eyes.
(34:18):
I am so jaded, you know, I need to look
at it through a different lens. Does that make any sense?
When I reached Michael, the oldest of the Bier brothers,
he agreed with Stephen and told me he still has
significant questions about the gun. So you still you still
(34:38):
believe that probably someone else was involved. Sure, I certainly do.
The police, uh get pretty good, you know, they can
they can dig sh it up, and they can they
can bury stuff. So I'm sure there's a lot of
stuff that's buried and no one's going to know about it. Ronnie,
the youngest of the Bills, he just wanted to put
(35:01):
the whole thing behind him. He's getting married soon, starting
a new chapter of his life. He doesn't want to
go there anymore. Like you said in the meeting, he
considers at the end of the road. I came to
understand through my conversations with the brothers that it was
(35:23):
very possible the family would be living with these conflicting
stories of Sandy's death and therefore her life forever, and
maybe that was all right. Well, we've seen over and
over now really twenty five years of search, the majority
of people are resilient to almost anything. George Bonano is
(35:44):
a psychologist at Columbia University. His research focuses on how
human beings cope with bereavement, loss, and other potentially traumatic events.
You know, everybody's moved on and lived their lives, you know,
and it's now a person four decades in the past
who they loved or who they had complex relationships with,
and now they have a kind of a very complicated
(36:07):
story about that person. But you know, there's probably enough
distance that they can probably say, Okay, well, you know,
we'll maybe hold both of these but you know, I
don't think it would be as crucial or as critical,
and they're wet to their well being to have a
clear picture anymore. In a sense, the need to have
them reconciled is maybe long past. George's research has found
(36:30):
that most people possess a natural resilience to trauma and loss.
The person is able to you know, concentrate, laugh, do
what they need to do, take care of people they love,
and be cared for by people they love, and they
love them, you know, be close, have intimate interactions, and
they you know, they're able to experience joy, and they're
(36:52):
able to experience pain, and they're able to be to
think about other things, and they simply continue on with
their life. They don't forget the person. They just continue
living the life in the present. And if you think
about it, human beings have been around for a long
time and we've thrived all over the planet, and we've
(37:15):
always been able to keep moving on and keep going.
That's just human nature. Kim has moved houses since she
visited the Beals in Maine, resettling in a country home
halfway between Houston and Austin. Being in the country has helped,
she said. The blue bonnets and wildflowers are out. The
(37:39):
trees outside her house are over three hundred years old.
She keeps a photo of Sandy on her desk, but
she's put her files about the case out of sight
in a closet, still close enough to access if she
needs them, but not lining the walls of her bedroom
like they used to Sandy's case. It's been a source
of consistency in her life for decades, something to focus
(38:02):
her boundless energy on, give her purpose, and now she
considers it over. She's let go for the most part.
She has answers, though she says she still needs to
find closure. She wants to go back to the pole
yard and have a ceremony there to say goodbye before
(38:25):
the family meeting. One of Kim's biggest concerns was disappointing Joanne.
She feared that spending all those years investigating the case
had prolonged Joanne's pain and stood in the way of healing.
It's been a long time, hasn't it. Yeah, fighting us,
It's a long time fighting it. Yeah. So I'm most
(38:47):
concerned mostly about you. I've had a few weeks to
process it, and I'm still struggling with it. So just grieving,
you know, I know what you mean. I was just
I think it was Melissa, that this might be the
last sit in that I might sit in. It depends
on how I feel at the time, you know, because
(39:10):
it drums everything back up. It's hard and it's hot,
and that's the way it is. But the journey it
had bonded the two women. I got the sense that
Joanne was profoundly touched by the years that Kim had
spent in service to Sandy. She was trying to hold
(39:31):
people accountable, and she had kept Sandy's memory alive. We've
come a long way with this. You have Dug and
Doug and Doug and Dog. There's been many things that
I have thought of and thought of and thought and
just like we all have questions, but oh following never
(39:54):
get all the answers. We've had a lot, We've learned
a lot. I understand why the bills still have questions,
because I do too. There's still so much unknown about
the network of police officers whose phone numbers Sandy wrote
down in her address books, police officers who took her
(40:17):
on ride alongs and drove her home at night after
hanging out at the FOP lodge. But I'm pretty sure
I know how she felt when she died, because she
wrote about it. I've reread her note to Doug many times,
and what's clear is how alone, used and powerless she felt.
It's a stark reversal from where she was when she
began policing, described by her friends and family as strong, ambitious,
(40:42):
and secure. The main criticism I've heard about my podcast
is that it's anti cop, that if a teen girl
was victimized in an Explorer program that was in the
nineteen seventies and doesn't reflect on what's happening now. But
I want to tell you about another Sandy. Sandra Birchmore
died by suicide during the pandemic while pregnant, allegedly with
(41:06):
the child of a married older cop who was an
instructor in the Explorer program she had attended. A misconduct
probe launched in the wake of her death has resulted
in the resignation of one officer, with two others placed
on paid leave. I think there are many many more
Sandy's out there, girls and women who have been sexualized, mistreated,
(41:31):
and eaten up by a police culture where masculinity reigns.
Sandy wasn't an anomaly, Joanne. She still has questions. She
still hopes that Sandy Sheridan will come forward. She still
believes that Doug was in the pole yard the night
(41:53):
Sandy died. She even had a dream about him recently
where she confronted him outside a courthouse and gave him
a piece of her mind. But ultimately she's come to
accept the possibility that Sandy died by suicide. She thinks
that Sandy was consumed by hurt and felt as though
she had no one to turn to, and she blames
(42:13):
the police for putting her daughter in this position. Thinking
back to when Sandy died, the worst part was the
not knowing, she said, having only the fragments of Sandy's
story and not being able to put them together in
a way that made any sense. Today, she's learned how
to live with the not knowing, the lingering ambiguity, the
(42:36):
unanswered questions. She's found a way to put all that
to the side, diffuse it of its power. Maybe she
wasn't supposed to know everything, she said, It's just how
it is, and she's at peace. So anyway, it was
a hard time, and uh, I don't know, We've been
(43:01):
through enough a lot in this family. I say the
good lawd was good to me to give me a
life to live this law. I weighed two pounds and
three ounces at birth. They told my mother and father
I wouldn't love twenty four hours and here I am
Edie too. Joanne hopes she'll see Sandy in heaven, but
(43:24):
for now, she's put the whole thing in a good place.
She needed to. She's a fighter, always has been, but
it was time for her to stop. Well, Honey, I've
got to let you go. Okay? What Happened to Sandy
Beale is hosted by Me Melissa Jolson. It's written and
(43:46):
produced by me and Katrina Norvell. The podcast is edited
by Abu Safar. Sound designed by Aaron Kaufman. Jason English
is our executive producer. Research and production assistance by Marissa Brown.
Special thanks to Duncan Radell, Bethan Macaluso, Nikki etr and
(44:08):
Pete Monica. To find out more about my investigation, follow
me on Twitter at Quasimado. That's qu as I am Ado,
a brand new historical true crime podcast. When you lay
suffering a sudden brutal death starring Alison william I hope
(44:29):
you'll think of me. Erased the murder of Elma Sans.
She was a sweet happy, virtuous girl until she met
that man right there. Written and created by me Alison Fly.
Is it possible? So we're standing by for your answer.
Erased the murder of Elma Sans on the iHeartRadio app,
Apple podcasts or wherever you listen to your podcasts. When Terrace,
(44:52):
who were killed Burns was two years old, her baby
brother died. I was told that Matthew died in an accident.
Her parents told police she had killed him. I'm Nancy Glass.
Join me for Burden of Guilt, the new podcast that
tells the truth an incredible story of a toddler who
was framed for murder. Listen to Burden of Guilt on
(45:16):
the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
The system's broken. I said, something's wrong with her, you know,
whenever a one is allowed to kill my two kids.
Unrestorable is a new true crime podcast that investigates the
case of Catherine Hoggle, a mother accused of murder. Despite
(45:41):
signs that Catherine Hoggle took her tiny children one by
one into the night, never to come home again, she
has yet to stand trial. Listen to Unrestorable on the
iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts,
and to hear the show completely ad free, subscribe to
the iHeart True Crime Plus channel, available exclusively on Apple
(46:04):
Podcasts Plus. You'll get ad free access to dozens of
hit true crime shows like Paper Ghosts, Betrayal, and The
Idaho Massacre. Hey, guys, Britton Laurie here from Life on
Cut podcast. We are the number one dating and relationships
podcasts in Australia because we do things different down underm
We cover everything from dating, sex, relationships and pop culture.
(46:27):
We chat with a lot of experts about things like love, cheating,
narcissists because we both dated one, long distance, fertility, communication
and breakups, and we talk to some people you might
be familiar with, like Rebel Wilson, Matthew Hussey, Stephen Bartlett,
Joanne McNally and Mark Manson. You can join us while
we unpack it all by searching for Life on Cut
now wherever you get your podcasts. Fall is coming and
(46:49):
the nights are getting longer, and a strange Hollywood couple
have moved into the Winchester Mystery House. If you are
brieve enough, you're invited to the Unhinged Warning from September
twenty second to October thirty first experience the terrifying line
between reality and imagination as darkness falls and those that
(47:10):
haunt the Winchester Mystery House join the party. Get your
general admission and rip tickets at Winchestermisteryhouse dot com
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