April 23, 2024 • 28 mins
Ready to take a deep dive into the intersection of neuroscience and faith? In part two of this fascinating conversation with brain surgeon, author, and fellow podcaster Dr. Lee Warren, we delve into the power of "Neuro Hope" and "Neuro Faith."
Dr. Lee walks us through the specifics of how faith and neuroscience collide and teaches us the art and science of communicating effectively with ourselves for transformation, a skill he calls "self brain surgery."
He shares practical tips from his own "Ten Commandments of Self Brain Surgery" that will empower you to rewrite your own narrative and invite God into the conversation of your own transformative journey .Join us as we unlock the secrets of self-brain surgery and explore the boundless possibilities when faith and neuroscience get intertwined.
GUEST: @drleewarren
Dr. Warren's Podcast: https://wleewarrenmd.com/podcast/
Dr. Warren's Latest Book: https://wleewarrenmd.com/books/hope-is-the-first-dose/
HOST: @LeanneEllington
To learn more about Leanne, head over to www.LeanneEllington.com, and to share your thoughts, questions, feedback, or guest suggestions instantly, head on over to www.WhatsGodGotToDoWithIt.com.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
If you want to go on a journey, if you're skeptical,
don't worry. Now here to preach. I want to keep
it clean and talk to me and recall where faith
needs all nature and get in touch with your creator
with a bacon, love and jun She even speaks Hebrew.
What's that?
Speaker 2 (00:31):
What's that?
Speaker 1 (00:37):
As well? Send passion? You're talking transformation, what's done? Got to.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
Welcome back to what's God got to do with it?
We are back here with doctor Lee Warren. Hello, thank
you so much for coming back.
Speaker 3 (00:52):
Thanks Leanne, I'm so glad to be back with you.
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
If you missed the first part of this, definitely go
check it out. Doctor Lee Warren here, and he is
a neurosurgeon by day, an author and a podcaster by night.
But he is so much more than that. He's really
intersecting where faith meets science and bringing it to you
in a very real world, relatable way. And he shared
his journey, his story, his heart, his soul on last
(01:15):
week's episode, really the neuro hope side of things, and
today we're going to dive into the neuro faith side
of things. So there was all of his life's happenings
and who he became in the midst of that, but
also the gifting and the zones of genius that God
really called him in to teach, and what he's teaching
now through his books and his podcast that, in my opinion,
are going to leave a legacy beyond anything that we've
(01:35):
seen in this day and age. Like, really, you are
a true teacher of our time. But you also have
the gift of communication and teaching, especially when it comes
to the geeky neuroscience stuff, which I personally love getting
into to the geeky side of it, but you have
such a beautiful way of making it very simple and straight,
straightforward and really relatable. So first and foremost, can you
just share a little bit about your view of where
(01:58):
faith meets science. I mean, coming from a neurosurgeon perspective
where you are literally operating on brains, and then also
being a son of God and a seeker and a believer.
And keep in mind too, there's people here that already
are there, and there's some people that are just kind
of dipping their toes into this God conversation. And I
know for me, science was really what I grasp onto
(02:18):
and that's what led me to the Bible and seeing
that it all aligned. So I'd love to just start
off by hearing your perspective on where faith meets science
and meeting people where they are in that side of things.
Speaker 3 (02:29):
Absolutely, you know, first of all, I think we need
to parse out one thing, and that is there's kind
of two things that people will mean when they say science,
and one is the capital S science like organized science
and scientists and what the media says about science and
all of that, and that big s sort of capital S.
(02:50):
Science is not the same thing as the process and
the discipline of carrying out things in a scientific way.
What that means, if you want to say small science,
lowercase as science, is anybody can be a scientist because
the scientific method is this process of asking questions, making observations,
(03:11):
designing experiments to test those questions, and then coming up
with hypotheses to explain what you see in being the
person of enough character to change or revise your hypothesis
based on the data that you collect. That's the process
of science, and so science. This is the part that
my surprise, folks listening is organized science. Academic science actually
(03:33):
started after Copernicus as a way to find out what
God did and explain it to people to bring glory
and honor to God. In fact, in the lab at
Cambridge University, over the entry way, Maxwell inscribed Psalm one
O three in Latin over the lab at Cambridge University,
Salm one O three is greater the works of the Lord.
(03:53):
They are pondered by all who observe him. Like the
idea of we can look at the universe as a
way of finding out who God is and drawing close
to him. And so the idea is that God wrote
two books. He didn't just write the Bible, he also
wrote Nature, and learning how to investigate nature is a
way to get closer to God. You did that in
your life, like you You've found God through the pursuit
(04:15):
of science. Right. So I think this notion that we
have of science and faith being enemies is created by
the large the capital as science. That this materialist philosophy
that came around the time of Darwin. Materialism is that
everything has to be explained through observable, testable things, and
you can't and you can't invoke anything supernatural. And that
(04:38):
sounds really scientific, Liam, but the truth is it's philosophical.
It's not scientific. It's philosophical. And it started with people
who agreed with each other that they didn't believe in God,
that there wasn't a god, that there can't be a god,
that science can explain everything. And so this sort of
idea that things that are sciencey don't need need to
(05:00):
invoke supernatural or philosophical things, and things that are theological
or philosophical or whatever can't ever line up with science.
That's a man made idea. It's not a scientific idea.
And so I think the first thing that people need
to understand is that a scientist can say something, but
that doesn't mean that what they say is scientific. And
(05:21):
so there's a difference between a scientific statement and a
statement made by a scientist, and so I just want
to get that clear. And if you're interested in that
kind of stuff, there's tons of reading, tons of things
you can read and learn. John Lennox has written a
ton about that, and It's Seven Days that Divide the
World is his book about creation and cosmic Chemistry is
his book that explains all these ideas in great detail.
(05:41):
So that's not what we're here to talk about today.
But I always feel like I need to defend the
notion that science is actually a very spiritual endeavor because
it started with this idea of how can we look
at what God has done and try to understand it
well enough to explain it to other people. And so
that's what science is to me. I'm a practicing neurosurgeon
and I'm a Christian, and I don't think there's any
(06:04):
issue at all between those two things. In fact, for me,
science continually draws me closer to my Creator. And what
I mean by that is, I've been doing this for
twenty three years now, and every time we advance technologically
and get something new, some ability, some better microscope, or
some ability to look deeper into the nervous system, what
we find is more organization and more evidence of design,
(06:28):
and more things that are beautifully crafted and fearfully and
wonderfully made. And the idea behind materialism at the beginning,
then this goes all the way back to Galileo and
Copernicus and Da Vinci and all those guys, was the
idea was that if we can just break things down,
we're going to simplify them enough to finally be able
to explain everything and not have to invoke God to
(06:49):
explain it. But what we find actually when we perform
science like scientists is that the more we look, the
more complex things get. And so what that means to
me is that what God said all along is that
you're fearfully and wonderfully made in My image. That's actually true.
And so what I call, kind of jokingly Warren's law
of science on my show, so you talk about is
(07:11):
that science will never prove anything that the Bible said
to have been false. If you read the Bible with
an open mind and apply reasonable exegetics to it, science
will never contradict anything the Bible says. Actually, when science
is applied scientifically, Okay, so when we apply things philosophically,
(07:33):
it's anybody's guests. But Stephen Hawking is no better than
you are at philosophy, even though he's probably a better
physicist than you are. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
Absolutely, And it's so interesting because in a way, like
my first faith based experience was an experiment, I literally
had this idea of like I am either positively anticipating
my future like faith and believing what I can't yet
see your smell or taste or touch, or negatively anticipating
my future fear, worry, despair, dread, all those things. And
that's where I was like, I'm just going to try
(08:02):
on this idea that there is a God that loves
me unconditionally. Everything was like it was a hypothesis. It
was an experiment, you know, and then I would take
the data, take the feedback, and craft a new experiment.
And I think when you even think of it like that,
like even for people that are listening that are skeptical,
cynical and they're in their logic and reason mind a lot,
and they're like, well, if there's not a kind of
(08:23):
like I was like, show me a brain scan that
shows me that the Bible is true, you know. But
that's kind of an imitation too. It's like, go try
it on. See what happens when you surrender, See what
happens when you die to yourself, See what happens when
you renew your mind. And for anybody that is a
logic and science seeking person, they can turn it almost
turn it into their own science, their own exploration, their
(08:43):
own experimentation.
Speaker 3 (08:45):
That's right, And that's exactly what he means when he says,
taste and see that the Lord is good. Like if
you come to him with honest questions and you investigate him,
you find that he's truthful, that his promises are good
in there for you, and that he's actually good and kind,
and that the things that he says turned out to
be helpful to you when your life hurts. And for me,
(09:06):
that's how I got to it right. I was drawn
to science, not because I was trying to find my
way to God. I was raised in the Christian home.
I was drawn to science. And then when the world
fell apart from me, when my son died, when I
had PTSD from being in the Iraq War, when I
went through a divorce, when the world fell apart, I
found that my understanding of neuroscience helped me understand what
(09:27):
my brain was doing and how that influenced and sort
of reinforced my faith. And I found those two things
working together to hold me together in a way that
I could not have understood independently of either of them.
Speaker 2 (09:49):
You know, you talk about this all the time on
your podcast and your books, this idea of being a
self brain surgeon and a spiritual brain surgeon. You know,
take us through a little bit of that thought process,
just like we were talking about. You know, our circumstances
are going to happen, and who we become in the
face of them. How we show up in the face
of them. That is the one thing we can influence,
and so we can influence our thoughts, we can influence
(10:10):
our beliefs, we can influence our habits, even when the
circumstances feel out of our control. So for anybody who's wondering, Okay,
how do I fuse faith and science and become a
self brain surgeon and a spiritual brain surgeon, can you
take us through that thought process?
Speaker 3 (10:24):
So early two thousands people figured it out that a
central idea in neuroscience turned out not to be true.
Up until about two thousand, everybody thought that you were
born with all the brain cells you were ever going
to have, and that the way that those cells connected
to each other was fairly fixed, that people didn't really
have the ability to rewire their brains and all of that.
(10:46):
But in early two thousands, thanks to functional brain imaging
and some great research that was done by people like
Jeffrey Schwartz and people like that, we learned that it's
actually true that your brain makes new neurons every day,
and that the connections between those neurons are dynamic and
they change every second of every day in response to
the things that you experience, feel, your genetics, your traumas,
(11:10):
your ideologies, and the things that you think about more
importantly than anything else. And so what we learned then
is the Bible in Philippians four says, hey, if you
want to be less anxious, think about better stuff. The
Bible says in Romans twelve two, don't conform your brain
to the way the world wants you to think, but
transform your mind. Change your mind, and you'll have a
better life. The Bible says it all over the place,
(11:32):
and tewo Corinthians ten to five. Take every thought captive.
If you want to be less anxious and less stressed out,
get your thoughts under control. So what I see then,
as a Christian who's also a neuroscientist, is that this
idea that you can change how you think and it
makes structural changes in your brain.
Speaker 1 (11:49):
What is that?
Speaker 3 (11:50):
That's what I do with surgery, Like I stick a
knife in your head and I make structural changes in
your brain. But it leaves a mark. Right, I've got
to cut your hair and drill into your call and
make an incision in your dua matter, and I'm going
to injure you to some degree to make some kind
of structural change. But you can make you Not only
can you, but you are making structural changes in your
(12:12):
brain every second of every day by how you think.
And that is surgery just as much as what I
do in the operating room. And so I don't like
the term self directed neuroplasticity very much because that sounds
like it sounds sort of science y and hard to approach.
But self brain surgery, to me, makes more sense. And
the other piece of self directed neuroplasticity is it implies
(12:35):
that the process is completely under your control. And the
truth is, if you don't direct those changes, they're going
to happen anyway. But what happens is if you don't
change the way a synapse is formed, it just rewires
and reinforces in the way it was already there. And
that's why people start to feel stuck over time, is
because I just keep doing and thinking the same things,
(12:56):
and I don't see any change happening in my life.
And I keep trying to all problems the same way,
and I don't see any changes happening in my life.
And then start people start getting this idea that that's
just how I am like, maybe because my mom and
dad or who they were, and I got the set
of genes that I got and my uncle did that
thing when I was nine, and I'm just I'm just
that's just how I'm going to be. I'm stuck with that.
But the truth is you're not stuck with it. In fact,
(13:18):
you're not even the same you. Leahn Ellington don't have
the same brain right now that you did when we
started this podcast. You've made billions of new synapses in
the last half hour since we started talking. So the
only difference is do you want to be a victim
of those processes or do you want to be a
surgeon and grab the frickin knife and take charge of
(13:38):
that process and control it. And that's self brain surgery. Now,
I think there's another level to it that makes it
even more powerful, and that is that we can be
victims of this passive process and that's a bummer. We
don't want to be that. Or we can take the
neuroscience approach and be self directed neuroplasticians and learn how
to operate the science and do all this good stuff
(14:00):
that I think is part of this general grace that
God gives us to how the universe works and understanding
that tapping into it as scientists and letting that process
become under our control. But the highest level of it,
that the best level of it, is when you connect
your mind to your creator, to your spirit and let
him be a great physician. I'm a good physician. He's
(14:22):
a great physician, and he'll say, hey, let me let
me give you some help with that operation that you're
trying to perform. Let me let me nuance that for
you a little bit. Let me let me tighten that
up a bit for you, and you'll find what John,
what Jesus says in John about what the Holy Spirit's
role is in our life. He says, he's a counselor.
He'll come and teach you and remind you refresh the
(14:43):
knowledge of what I've taught you in your mind. And
that's how it works when you connect your mind to
your spirit, is he starts guiding you in these decisions
that you make about how the changes in your thinking
will change the reality and the structure of your brain.
And now the good news. Now we know that if
you're born with, say, genes that were switched on by
your parents traumas, we know now, for example, you can
(15:05):
inherit memories from your dad and your mom, and you're
afraid of some stuff when you're born, even though you
haven't ever gone through it, right, it's just kind of terrifying.
We know now you can change that by changing how
you think, and you'll switch those genes back off, and
your kids can be born unafraid of things that your
grandparents were afraid of because you switched your mind. That's
(15:27):
powerful and that's healing, and that's hope.
Speaker 2 (15:30):
Gosh so good, and it really is, you know, just
to touch on some of the things that you said,
it's happening either way, whether we're aware of it or not.
And now it's like a call an invitation to become
aware of it. The power that we do have so
that we're not sleepwalking through our brain getting fired and
wired regardless of us actively and proactively seeking a new
way of thinking, in a new way of being. But
(15:50):
also it's not one of those things where you know,
it's like, oh, that's just who I am, or it's
the nurture versus nature conversation and a lot of the
things that people used to think or just nature. It's like, no,
it's a cause and effect. It's a product of thoughts
and beliefs and behaviors that we can absolutely take ownership of.
But I think there's another distinction that I'd love for
you to speak into where I hear from a lot
(16:12):
of women specifically that I talk to that it's like, oh,
I prayed for God to shift that, or I prayed
for God to take that away from me, or to
help me overcome that addiction or whatever it is. And
the way I see it is you have to take
radical ownership. You've got to meet God halfway and shift
your brain and shift your mind. But then when you
invite God into the conversation, it's like pouring gasoline, you know,
(16:33):
adding miracles into it. It's this co creation, it's this partnership.
But you know, God can't do that rewiring for you.
It's the free will part of it where you've got
to show up and you've got to take ownership of it.
So can you just kind of speak into that a
little bit about you started to say how it is
really like we can become a victim to it, and
that's a very you know, sad ending because we know
how that ends. It will be a self fulfilling prophecy, right,
(16:56):
or we can take ownership of it, and the big
part of that is ownership without shame, right, just acknowledging like, hey,
I didn't know what I didn't know. This is what happened,
and I don't have to like it, but I'm not gonna,
you know, take myself down a rabbit hole of shame
about it. But really, you know, putting that stake in
the ground, drawing that line in the sand and saying
I'm going to shift it and it's might not always
be easy, but I'm going to start. But then again,
(17:17):
you don't want to go too far into the self
reliance side of it, where it's just you, I have
to do everything on my own kind of thing, and
you know, inviting God and so, can you talk to
us a little bit about that partnership and that marriage
of where faith meets science. Can you talk to us
(17:39):
a little bit about that partnership in that marriage of
where faith meets science?
Speaker 3 (17:43):
Absolutely so. So I think the big thing is to
understand the nature of God, and to do that you
have to know the Word. He shows us who he
is by his written word, and then he shows up
in our lives. But He never contradicts with his presence
what he said than his word about himself. So he
wont ever be something he says he's not. He will
(18:04):
ever change the rules on you. So knowing that that
God shows up in the word and getting to know
how he works and who he says is important. But
if you think about like when I think about my
training as a neurosurgeon, the best professors were the ones
who when you were struggling a little bit, they didn't
just elbow you out of the way and take over
the operation and do it for you. They kind of
(18:25):
put their hands on you. I can remember a guy
named PARVISBA guy who was this Persian gentleman, just brilliant neurosurgeon,
and I would be struggling with something and he would
literally put his hands on top of my hands and
he would guide me to to sort of teach me
how to feel what I needed to feel and do
what I needed to do. But he never sort of
took over and did it for me right, He guided me,
(18:48):
helped me. And then if you think about how Jesus behaved,
do you think of the road to a mass These
guys are walking along and they're downcast, because the Savior
has been crucified and he's walking along with him. But
he does just blow up the conversation and tell him
who he is. He lets them experience him for a while.
He's walking on the water, and the Bible says he
(19:08):
was going to pass by the boat until they saw
him and they invited him to engage with them. He's
a gentleman. He doesn't barge in and take over. And
so what the lesson for us there is? He expects
you to be willing to use your hands and to
walk down the road, and to row the boat and
do some of those things. And this is not a
works based doctrine. I'm not saying that he expects you
(19:30):
to do the work. He expects you to be willing
to participate in your own healing and in the lives
of other people, to be his agent, his hands and feet,
if you will. And so that being said, this process
of directing our minds to direct our brains to change
our bodies and change our lives, that process happens because
(19:50):
we submit to his way of thinking about the things
that we need to think about. When he says, delight
yourself in the Lord, and he'll give you the desires
of your heart. He's not saying, delight yourself in him.
He'll give you, He'll make you win the lottery. He's saying,
he'll help you think like he does and help you
want the things he wants and help you achieve the
miracle he wants you to have with his help. But
(20:12):
he's not going to do it for you. He's not
going to take over and nudge you out of the way.
And that's because we have to be agents of change
and other people we ask. Christopher Cook says, we transform.
We are transformed so that we can help other people
see how they can be transformed. And so we multiply
those miracles by willing to show people that even in
our brokenness, we can actually do this and under God's help,
(20:35):
we can achieve great things. But he's not going to
do it for you.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
Amen. Wow, it's so good and really being an active
participant in our own healing, which is the opposite of
being a victim to our circumstances.
Speaker 1 (20:46):
You know.
Speaker 2 (20:47):
So for anyone who's listening and they're like, Okay, this
self brain surgery, the spiritual brain surgery, I can get
on board with that. What would be the first step
for them, because I know prayer and how to pray
is off a confusing topic for people that are more
like logic and reason seeking, and they're still opening their
heart and their spirit. You know what would be a
good first step? And how could they be praying for
(21:08):
more wisdom?
Speaker 3 (21:10):
I think the first thing is the prayer that I
love the most is is in Psalms, and I can't
for some reason can't think of where it is. Right now,
let the words of my mouth and the meditation of
my heart be pleasing to you, Oh God, right, So
what he's praying is not just about my actions, but
about my thoughts. Because we know that our thoughts change
our brain. Our brain changes our body, Our body changes
(21:31):
our genetics and our generations. And so the first thing
is if you want to live differently, you have to
think differently. So a perfect prayer then is to not
just help me change my behavior, let me change my thinking.
Let me change the way that my brain is approaching
these problems. And so getting this self brain surgery process
started happens in your thinking, thoughts become things. Before we
(21:53):
have a podcast, you have to have the idea that
you can have a podcast, right, You have to have
a thought that it's possible to build a computer and
connect it to the internet and all that stuff. Thoughts
become things. And so if you want to see the
events of your life change and the circumstances of your
life change, first you have to think about your life differently.
You have to think about the possibility that you can
(22:14):
have a different life than you do, and then start
looking for the tools that God has made available to you.
And the first one is what I call the thought biop.
See if you came to my office and you said, hey,
I've been having headaches, and I said, all right, let's
go to the operating room and I'll find out if
you have a brain tumor. You'd said, wait a minute,
should you do a cat scan first or something before
we go to surgery. Should need to do some sort
of diagnostic work. And that's true of our thoughts too,
(22:36):
because you have tens of thousands of thoughts every day,
and by a factor of at least five to one,
most of them aren't true. But they're just thoughts that happen.
And if you go around living your life as of
everything that pops into your head is true, you're going
to have a miserable life, because you're going to spend
a lot of time cleaning up things that you did
as a result of taking action on untrue thoughts. And
(22:57):
so the first thing is just take that space. That's
what Two Corinthians ten to five is about taking captive.
Every thought is bye. I'm seeing the thought before you
decide how to respond to it. If you can just
develop one practice from this podcast today is put a
three second pause in your life and develop a discipline
around a thought that pops into your head and asking
(23:18):
it three questions. So the pathologists always have questions, and
when they look at a piece of tissue under the microscope,
they're looking for signs that it might be cancered, and
they have all these questions that they ask of the tissue.
And I want you to have three questions. I'll leave
you with this today, Three questions that you ask of
every thought that pop into your head. Is it true?
Is the thought true? If it's not true, you're done.
(23:39):
You don't need to react to that thought. You don't
need to respond to it. You should you're doing self
malpractice if you respond to a thought that isn't true.
So is it true? If it's not true, forget it.
You're done. You're already done. Move on to the next thought.
If it is true, you still don't have to react
to it, because the subquestion of if it's true, is
is it necessary or is at least unharmful for me
(24:03):
to deal with this? Right If it's not necessary for
me to act on it, And that happens in the
middle of the night when you're stressed out and you
can't sleep and you're worried about a meeting that might
happen tomorrow, that's not helpful right now. It might turn
out to be true that you've got to deal with
this meeting it's going to be terrible and you got
to fire somebody or they're going to fire you, or something.
That may be true, but you spending all night worrying
(24:23):
about it isn't helpful and it isn't necessary right now,
and so change your mind about it. Say, Okay, I
will be more able to participate in that meeting and
be better at handling that meeting and maybe not get
fired if I get a good night's sleep, right and
I'm better prepared chemically and emotionally to deal with it.
Then if I stay up all not worrying about it,
(24:44):
I'm going to put myself in a bad position. So
the best plan for me, the best way I could
be a good physician for myself right now, is to
say I need to get some sleep. I got to
turn this off. I need to submit that to God
and a good prayer. There is the Quaker prayer of
what they call palms up, palms down. So he said,
I got a problem I can't deal with. I'm gonna
turn my palms over. God, you'd let it fall out
of my hands. And now I'm gonna turn my palms over.
(25:07):
Fill me up with rest and peace and comfort and
kindness and all the things that I need to sleep
right now, and the things that I need to fill
my mind with right now. I'm gonna turn my palms
up and let you fill that in. If you switch
your brain into that sort of thought process, you'll sleep
and you'll get better. Right And then the third question
of it is I, even if it's true, and even
if it's necessary, is it compassionate? Is it useful? And
(25:29):
is it is it a kind thought to be thinking
about right now? And if it's not kind and it's
not necessary and it's not useful, then you don't need
to spend time worrying about it. Let God have it.
Just turn your palms down and let it go. So
that's a little introduction to some of the kinds of
things that we do in self brain surgery.
Speaker 2 (25:45):
I love it. I love it. Yeah, and guys, you
have to check out both of his podcasts. His books
are amazing. So where can they find you online? Where
can they find all of the goodness? Because you don't
hold back on your podcast either way. I just want
to kind of brag on you for a second, like
you literally share it all. It's you peel back the
curtain and it's just so robust, and it's like each
episode is its own chapter of an encyclopedia almost. It's
(26:08):
so so helpful and informational but also transformational. So that
being said, where can they find you? Where can they
follow you?
Speaker 3 (26:17):
So everywhere podcasts are found, you can find the Doctor
Lee Warren podcast or the Spiritual Brain Surgery podcast, both
of them. Doctor Lee Warren is science and faith. We
get nerd out on quantum physics and neuroscience and all
that kind of stuff. And then the Spiritual Brain Surgery
podcast is more directly spiritual content. Apologetics, what we believe,
whyle we believe it, how you can defend it to
other people, and how science plays into that. And they're everywhere.
(26:40):
Podcasts are found, and my website is doctor Leewarren dot com.
I have a substack newsletter that's read everywhere all over
the world every week and love to connect with people,
so check it out. Love to hear from you. We
pretty much reply to every email we get. Still that's
getting harder and harder, but we try really hard to
make a community out of it.
Speaker 2 (26:57):
So well, thank you for taking your time to be here.
Thank you for sharing your wisdom. Thank you for answering
the call from God to take your job and switch
into your calling to share share this good news with
all of us. So thanks for being here.
Speaker 3 (27:11):
That's awesome. Thank you so much, Gobloss.
Speaker 2 (27:12):
Bye, guys, we'll see you next time. We'll be back
with more what's God got to do with it? But
in the meantime, I would definitely love to hear from you,
So just tell me where you are in your story
or maybe what questions you have, like where do you
feel you need clarity or support or wisdom in your
own journey. I definitely want to hear from you, So
(27:34):
head on over to What's God Got to Do with It?
Dot com and scroll down to the form to share
your thoughts, your questions, your feedback, and you can do
that instantly. So What's God Got to Do with It?
Dot Com You'll find all the ways to do that.
And if you like this podcast and want to hear more,
go ahead and follow, like, and subscribe wherever you listen
(27:54):
to podcasts to get your weekly dose of What's God
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What's God Got to Do With It Is an iHeartRadio
podcast on the Amy Brown Podcast Network. It's written and
(28:15):
hosted by me Leanne Ellington, executive produced by Elizabeth Fozzio,
post production and editing by Houston Tilley, and original music
written by Cheryl Stark and produced by Adam Stark
If you want to go on a journey, if you're skeptical,
don't worry. Now here to preach. I want to keep
it clean and talk to me and recall where faith
needs all nature and get in touch with your creator
with a bacon, love and jun She even speaks Hebrew.
What's that?
Speaker 2 (00:31):
What's that?
Speaker 1 (00:37):
As well? Send passion? You're talking transformation, what's done? Got to.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
Welcome back to what's God got to do with it?
We are back here with doctor Lee Warren. Hello, thank
you so much for coming back.
Speaker 3 (00:52):
Thanks Leanne, I'm so glad to be back with you.
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
If you missed the first part of this, definitely go
check it out. Doctor Lee Warren here, and he is
a neurosurgeon by day, an author and a podcaster by night.
But he is so much more than that. He's really
intersecting where faith meets science and bringing it to you
in a very real world, relatable way. And he shared
his journey, his story, his heart, his soul on last
(01:15):
week's episode, really the neuro hope side of things, and
today we're going to dive into the neuro faith side
of things. So there was all of his life's happenings
and who he became in the midst of that, but
also the gifting and the zones of genius that God
really called him in to teach, and what he's teaching
now through his books and his podcast that, in my opinion,
are going to leave a legacy beyond anything that we've
(01:35):
seen in this day and age. Like, really, you are
a true teacher of our time. But you also have
the gift of communication and teaching, especially when it comes
to the geeky neuroscience stuff, which I personally love getting
into to the geeky side of it, but you have
such a beautiful way of making it very simple and straight,
straightforward and really relatable. So first and foremost, can you
just share a little bit about your view of where
(01:58):
faith meets science. I mean, coming from a neurosurgeon perspective
where you are literally operating on brains, and then also
being a son of God and a seeker and a believer.
And keep in mind too, there's people here that already
are there, and there's some people that are just kind
of dipping their toes into this God conversation. And I
know for me, science was really what I grasp onto
(02:18):
and that's what led me to the Bible and seeing
that it all aligned. So I'd love to just start
off by hearing your perspective on where faith meets science
and meeting people where they are in that side of things.
Speaker 3 (02:29):
Absolutely, you know, first of all, I think we need
to parse out one thing, and that is there's kind
of two things that people will mean when they say science,
and one is the capital S science like organized science
and scientists and what the media says about science and
all of that, and that big s sort of capital S.
(02:50):
Science is not the same thing as the process and
the discipline of carrying out things in a scientific way.
What that means, if you want to say small science,
lowercase as science, is anybody can be a scientist because
the scientific method is this process of asking questions, making observations,
(03:11):
designing experiments to test those questions, and then coming up
with hypotheses to explain what you see in being the
person of enough character to change or revise your hypothesis
based on the data that you collect. That's the process
of science, and so science. This is the part that
my surprise, folks listening is organized science. Academic science actually
(03:33):
started after Copernicus as a way to find out what
God did and explain it to people to bring glory
and honor to God. In fact, in the lab at
Cambridge University, over the entry way, Maxwell inscribed Psalm one
O three in Latin over the lab at Cambridge University,
Salm one O three is greater the works of the Lord.
(03:53):
They are pondered by all who observe him. Like the
idea of we can look at the universe as a
way of finding out who God is and drawing close
to him. And so the idea is that God wrote
two books. He didn't just write the Bible, he also
wrote Nature, and learning how to investigate nature is a
way to get closer to God. You did that in
your life, like you You've found God through the pursuit
(04:15):
of science. Right. So I think this notion that we
have of science and faith being enemies is created by
the large the capital as science. That this materialist philosophy
that came around the time of Darwin. Materialism is that
everything has to be explained through observable, testable things, and
you can't and you can't invoke anything supernatural. And that
(04:38):
sounds really scientific, Liam, but the truth is it's philosophical.
It's not scientific. It's philosophical. And it started with people
who agreed with each other that they didn't believe in God,
that there wasn't a god, that there can't be a god,
that science can explain everything. And so this sort of
idea that things that are sciencey don't need need to
(05:00):
invoke supernatural or philosophical things, and things that are theological
or philosophical or whatever can't ever line up with science.
That's a man made idea. It's not a scientific idea.
And so I think the first thing that people need
to understand is that a scientist can say something, but
that doesn't mean that what they say is scientific. And
(05:21):
so there's a difference between a scientific statement and a
statement made by a scientist, and so I just want
to get that clear. And if you're interested in that
kind of stuff, there's tons of reading, tons of things
you can read and learn. John Lennox has written a
ton about that, and It's Seven Days that Divide the
World is his book about creation and cosmic Chemistry is
his book that explains all these ideas in great detail.
(05:41):
So that's not what we're here to talk about today.
But I always feel like I need to defend the
notion that science is actually a very spiritual endeavor because
it started with this idea of how can we look
at what God has done and try to understand it
well enough to explain it to other people. And so
that's what science is to me. I'm a practicing neurosurgeon
and I'm a Christian, and I don't think there's any
(06:04):
issue at all between those two things. In fact, for me,
science continually draws me closer to my Creator. And what
I mean by that is, I've been doing this for
twenty three years now, and every time we advance technologically
and get something new, some ability, some better microscope, or
some ability to look deeper into the nervous system, what
we find is more organization and more evidence of design,
(06:28):
and more things that are beautifully crafted and fearfully and
wonderfully made. And the idea behind materialism at the beginning,
then this goes all the way back to Galileo and
Copernicus and Da Vinci and all those guys, was the
idea was that if we can just break things down,
we're going to simplify them enough to finally be able
to explain everything and not have to invoke God to
(06:49):
explain it. But what we find actually when we perform
science like scientists is that the more we look, the
more complex things get. And so what that means to
me is that what God said all along is that
you're fearfully and wonderfully made in My image. That's actually true.
And so what I call, kind of jokingly Warren's law
of science on my show, so you talk about is
(07:11):
that science will never prove anything that the Bible said
to have been false. If you read the Bible with
an open mind and apply reasonable exegetics to it, science
will never contradict anything the Bible says. Actually, when science
is applied scientifically, Okay, so when we apply things philosophically,
(07:33):
it's anybody's guests. But Stephen Hawking is no better than
you are at philosophy, even though he's probably a better
physicist than you are. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
Absolutely, And it's so interesting because in a way, like
my first faith based experience was an experiment, I literally
had this idea of like I am either positively anticipating
my future like faith and believing what I can't yet
see your smell or taste or touch, or negatively anticipating
my future fear, worry, despair, dread, all those things. And
that's where I was like, I'm just going to try
(08:02):
on this idea that there is a God that loves
me unconditionally. Everything was like it was a hypothesis. It
was an experiment, you know, and then I would take
the data, take the feedback, and craft a new experiment.
And I think when you even think of it like that,
like even for people that are listening that are skeptical,
cynical and they're in their logic and reason mind a lot,
and they're like, well, if there's not a kind of
(08:23):
like I was like, show me a brain scan that
shows me that the Bible is true, you know. But
that's kind of an imitation too. It's like, go try
it on. See what happens when you surrender, See what
happens when you die to yourself, See what happens when
you renew your mind. And for anybody that is a
logic and science seeking person, they can turn it almost
turn it into their own science, their own exploration, their
(08:43):
own experimentation.
Speaker 3 (08:45):
That's right, And that's exactly what he means when he says,
taste and see that the Lord is good. Like if
you come to him with honest questions and you investigate him,
you find that he's truthful, that his promises are good
in there for you, and that he's actually good and kind,
and that the things that he says turned out to
be helpful to you when your life hurts. And for me,
(09:06):
that's how I got to it right. I was drawn
to science, not because I was trying to find my
way to God. I was raised in the Christian home.
I was drawn to science. And then when the world
fell apart from me, when my son died, when I
had PTSD from being in the Iraq War, when I
went through a divorce, when the world fell apart, I
found that my understanding of neuroscience helped me understand what
(09:27):
my brain was doing and how that influenced and sort
of reinforced my faith. And I found those two things
working together to hold me together in a way that
I could not have understood independently of either of them.
Speaker 2 (09:49):
You know, you talk about this all the time on
your podcast and your books, this idea of being a
self brain surgeon and a spiritual brain surgeon. You know,
take us through a little bit of that thought process,
just like we were talking about. You know, our circumstances
are going to happen, and who we become in the
face of them. How we show up in the face
of them. That is the one thing we can influence,
and so we can influence our thoughts, we can influence
(10:10):
our beliefs, we can influence our habits, even when the
circumstances feel out of our control. So for anybody who's wondering, Okay,
how do I fuse faith and science and become a
self brain surgeon and a spiritual brain surgeon, can you
take us through that thought process?
Speaker 3 (10:24):
So early two thousands people figured it out that a
central idea in neuroscience turned out not to be true.
Up until about two thousand, everybody thought that you were
born with all the brain cells you were ever going
to have, and that the way that those cells connected
to each other was fairly fixed, that people didn't really
have the ability to rewire their brains and all of that.
(10:46):
But in early two thousands, thanks to functional brain imaging
and some great research that was done by people like
Jeffrey Schwartz and people like that, we learned that it's
actually true that your brain makes new neurons every day,
and that the connections between those neurons are dynamic and
they change every second of every day in response to
the things that you experience, feel, your genetics, your traumas,
(11:10):
your ideologies, and the things that you think about more
importantly than anything else. And so what we learned then
is the Bible in Philippians four says, hey, if you
want to be less anxious, think about better stuff. The
Bible says in Romans twelve two, don't conform your brain
to the way the world wants you to think, but
transform your mind. Change your mind, and you'll have a
better life. The Bible says it all over the place,
(11:32):
and tewo Corinthians ten to five. Take every thought captive.
If you want to be less anxious and less stressed out,
get your thoughts under control. So what I see then,
as a Christian who's also a neuroscientist, is that this
idea that you can change how you think and it
makes structural changes in your brain.
Speaker 1 (11:49):
What is that?
Speaker 3 (11:50):
That's what I do with surgery, Like I stick a
knife in your head and I make structural changes in
your brain. But it leaves a mark. Right, I've got
to cut your hair and drill into your call and
make an incision in your dua matter, and I'm going
to injure you to some degree to make some kind
of structural change. But you can make you Not only
can you, but you are making structural changes in your
(12:12):
brain every second of every day by how you think.
And that is surgery just as much as what I
do in the operating room. And so I don't like
the term self directed neuroplasticity very much because that sounds
like it sounds sort of science y and hard to approach.
But self brain surgery, to me, makes more sense. And
the other piece of self directed neuroplasticity is it implies
(12:35):
that the process is completely under your control. And the
truth is, if you don't direct those changes, they're going
to happen anyway. But what happens is if you don't
change the way a synapse is formed, it just rewires
and reinforces in the way it was already there. And
that's why people start to feel stuck over time, is
because I just keep doing and thinking the same things,
(12:56):
and I don't see any change happening in my life.
And I keep trying to all problems the same way,
and I don't see any changes happening in my life.
And then start people start getting this idea that that's
just how I am like, maybe because my mom and
dad or who they were, and I got the set
of genes that I got and my uncle did that
thing when I was nine, and I'm just I'm just
that's just how I'm going to be. I'm stuck with that.
But the truth is you're not stuck with it. In fact,
(13:18):
you're not even the same you. Leahn Ellington don't have
the same brain right now that you did when we
started this podcast. You've made billions of new synapses in
the last half hour since we started talking. So the
only difference is do you want to be a victim
of those processes or do you want to be a
surgeon and grab the frickin knife and take charge of
(13:38):
that process and control it. And that's self brain surgery. Now,
I think there's another level to it that makes it
even more powerful, and that is that we can be
victims of this passive process and that's a bummer. We
don't want to be that. Or we can take the
neuroscience approach and be self directed neuroplasticians and learn how
to operate the science and do all this good stuff
(14:00):
that I think is part of this general grace that
God gives us to how the universe works and understanding
that tapping into it as scientists and letting that process
become under our control. But the highest level of it,
that the best level of it, is when you connect
your mind to your creator, to your spirit and let
him be a great physician. I'm a good physician. He's
(14:22):
a great physician, and he'll say, hey, let me let
me give you some help with that operation that you're
trying to perform. Let me let me nuance that for
you a little bit. Let me let me tighten that
up a bit for you, and you'll find what John,
what Jesus says in John about what the Holy Spirit's
role is in our life. He says, he's a counselor.
He'll come and teach you and remind you refresh the
(14:43):
knowledge of what I've taught you in your mind. And
that's how it works when you connect your mind to
your spirit, is he starts guiding you in these decisions
that you make about how the changes in your thinking
will change the reality and the structure of your brain.
And now the good news. Now we know that if
you're born with, say, genes that were switched on by
your parents traumas, we know now, for example, you can
(15:05):
inherit memories from your dad and your mom, and you're
afraid of some stuff when you're born, even though you
haven't ever gone through it, right, it's just kind of terrifying.
We know now you can change that by changing how
you think, and you'll switch those genes back off, and
your kids can be born unafraid of things that your
grandparents were afraid of because you switched your mind. That's
(15:27):
powerful and that's healing, and that's hope.
Speaker 2 (15:30):
Gosh so good, and it really is, you know, just
to touch on some of the things that you said,
it's happening either way, whether we're aware of it or not.
And now it's like a call an invitation to become
aware of it. The power that we do have so
that we're not sleepwalking through our brain getting fired and
wired regardless of us actively and proactively seeking a new
way of thinking, in a new way of being. But
(15:50):
also it's not one of those things where you know,
it's like, oh, that's just who I am, or it's
the nurture versus nature conversation and a lot of the
things that people used to think or just nature. It's like, no,
it's a cause and effect. It's a product of thoughts
and beliefs and behaviors that we can absolutely take ownership of.
But I think there's another distinction that I'd love for
you to speak into where I hear from a lot
(16:12):
of women specifically that I talk to that it's like, oh,
I prayed for God to shift that, or I prayed
for God to take that away from me, or to
help me overcome that addiction or whatever it is. And
the way I see it is you have to take
radical ownership. You've got to meet God halfway and shift
your brain and shift your mind. But then when you
invite God into the conversation, it's like pouring gasoline, you know,
(16:33):
adding miracles into it. It's this co creation, it's this partnership.
But you know, God can't do that rewiring for you.
It's the free will part of it where you've got
to show up and you've got to take ownership of it.
So can you just kind of speak into that a
little bit about you started to say how it is
really like we can become a victim to it, and
that's a very you know, sad ending because we know
how that ends. It will be a self fulfilling prophecy, right,
(16:56):
or we can take ownership of it, and the big
part of that is ownership without shame, right, just acknowledging like, hey,
I didn't know what I didn't know. This is what happened,
and I don't have to like it, but I'm not gonna,
you know, take myself down a rabbit hole of shame
about it. But really, you know, putting that stake in
the ground, drawing that line in the sand and saying
I'm going to shift it and it's might not always
be easy, but I'm going to start. But then again,
(17:17):
you don't want to go too far into the self
reliance side of it, where it's just you, I have
to do everything on my own kind of thing, and
you know, inviting God and so, can you talk to
us a little bit about that partnership and that marriage
of where faith meets science. Can you talk to us
(17:39):
a little bit about that partnership in that marriage of
where faith meets science?
Speaker 3 (17:43):
Absolutely so. So I think the big thing is to
understand the nature of God, and to do that you
have to know the Word. He shows us who he
is by his written word, and then he shows up
in our lives. But He never contradicts with his presence
what he said than his word about himself. So he
wont ever be something he says he's not. He will
(18:04):
ever change the rules on you. So knowing that that
God shows up in the word and getting to know
how he works and who he says is important. But
if you think about like when I think about my
training as a neurosurgeon, the best professors were the ones
who when you were struggling a little bit, they didn't
just elbow you out of the way and take over
the operation and do it for you. They kind of
(18:25):
put their hands on you. I can remember a guy
named PARVISBA guy who was this Persian gentleman, just brilliant neurosurgeon,
and I would be struggling with something and he would
literally put his hands on top of my hands and
he would guide me to to sort of teach me
how to feel what I needed to feel and do
what I needed to do. But he never sort of
took over and did it for me right, He guided me,
(18:48):
helped me. And then if you think about how Jesus behaved,
do you think of the road to a mass These
guys are walking along and they're downcast, because the Savior
has been crucified and he's walking along with him. But
he does just blow up the conversation and tell him
who he is. He lets them experience him for a while.
He's walking on the water, and the Bible says he
(19:08):
was going to pass by the boat until they saw
him and they invited him to engage with them. He's
a gentleman. He doesn't barge in and take over. And
so what the lesson for us there is? He expects
you to be willing to use your hands and to
walk down the road, and to row the boat and
do some of those things. And this is not a
works based doctrine. I'm not saying that he expects you
(19:30):
to do the work. He expects you to be willing
to participate in your own healing and in the lives
of other people, to be his agent, his hands and feet,
if you will. And so that being said, this process
of directing our minds to direct our brains to change
our bodies and change our lives, that process happens because
(19:50):
we submit to his way of thinking about the things
that we need to think about. When he says, delight
yourself in the Lord, and he'll give you the desires
of your heart. He's not saying, delight yourself in him.
He'll give you, He'll make you win the lottery. He's saying,
he'll help you think like he does and help you
want the things he wants and help you achieve the
miracle he wants you to have with his help. But
(20:12):
he's not going to do it for you. He's not
going to take over and nudge you out of the way.
And that's because we have to be agents of change
and other people we ask. Christopher Cook says, we transform.
We are transformed so that we can help other people
see how they can be transformed. And so we multiply
those miracles by willing to show people that even in
our brokenness, we can actually do this and under God's help,
(20:35):
we can achieve great things. But he's not going to
do it for you.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
Amen. Wow, it's so good and really being an active
participant in our own healing, which is the opposite of
being a victim to our circumstances.
Speaker 1 (20:46):
You know.
Speaker 2 (20:47):
So for anyone who's listening and they're like, Okay, this
self brain surgery, the spiritual brain surgery, I can get
on board with that. What would be the first step
for them, because I know prayer and how to pray
is off a confusing topic for people that are more
like logic and reason seeking, and they're still opening their
heart and their spirit. You know what would be a
good first step? And how could they be praying for
(21:08):
more wisdom?
Speaker 3 (21:10):
I think the first thing is the prayer that I
love the most is is in Psalms, and I can't
for some reason can't think of where it is. Right now,
let the words of my mouth and the meditation of
my heart be pleasing to you, Oh God, right, So
what he's praying is not just about my actions, but
about my thoughts. Because we know that our thoughts change
our brain. Our brain changes our body, Our body changes
(21:31):
our genetics and our generations. And so the first thing
is if you want to live differently, you have to
think differently. So a perfect prayer then is to not
just help me change my behavior, let me change my thinking.
Let me change the way that my brain is approaching
these problems. And so getting this self brain surgery process
started happens in your thinking, thoughts become things. Before we
(21:53):
have a podcast, you have to have the idea that
you can have a podcast, right, You have to have
a thought that it's possible to build a computer and
connect it to the internet and all that stuff. Thoughts
become things. And so if you want to see the
events of your life change and the circumstances of your
life change, first you have to think about your life differently.
You have to think about the possibility that you can
(22:14):
have a different life than you do, and then start
looking for the tools that God has made available to you.
And the first one is what I call the thought biop.
See if you came to my office and you said, hey,
I've been having headaches, and I said, all right, let's
go to the operating room and I'll find out if
you have a brain tumor. You'd said, wait a minute,
should you do a cat scan first or something before
we go to surgery. Should need to do some sort
of diagnostic work. And that's true of our thoughts too,
(22:36):
because you have tens of thousands of thoughts every day,
and by a factor of at least five to one,
most of them aren't true. But they're just thoughts that happen.
And if you go around living your life as of
everything that pops into your head is true, you're going
to have a miserable life, because you're going to spend
a lot of time cleaning up things that you did
as a result of taking action on untrue thoughts. And
(22:57):
so the first thing is just take that space. That's
what Two Corinthians ten to five is about taking captive.
Every thought is bye. I'm seeing the thought before you
decide how to respond to it. If you can just
develop one practice from this podcast today is put a
three second pause in your life and develop a discipline
around a thought that pops into your head and asking
(23:18):
it three questions. So the pathologists always have questions, and
when they look at a piece of tissue under the microscope,
they're looking for signs that it might be cancered, and
they have all these questions that they ask of the tissue.
And I want you to have three questions. I'll leave
you with this today, Three questions that you ask of
every thought that pop into your head. Is it true?
Is the thought true? If it's not true, you're done.
(23:39):
You don't need to react to that thought. You don't
need to respond to it. You should you're doing self
malpractice if you respond to a thought that isn't true.
So is it true? If it's not true, forget it.
You're done. You're already done. Move on to the next thought.
If it is true, you still don't have to react
to it, because the subquestion of if it's true, is
is it necessary or is at least unharmful for me
(24:03):
to deal with this? Right If it's not necessary for
me to act on it, And that happens in the
middle of the night when you're stressed out and you
can't sleep and you're worried about a meeting that might
happen tomorrow, that's not helpful right now. It might turn
out to be true that you've got to deal with
this meeting it's going to be terrible and you got
to fire somebody or they're going to fire you, or something.
That may be true, but you spending all night worrying
(24:23):
about it isn't helpful and it isn't necessary right now,
and so change your mind about it. Say, Okay, I
will be more able to participate in that meeting and
be better at handling that meeting and maybe not get
fired if I get a good night's sleep, right and
I'm better prepared chemically and emotionally to deal with it.
Then if I stay up all not worrying about it,
(24:44):
I'm going to put myself in a bad position. So
the best plan for me, the best way I could
be a good physician for myself right now, is to
say I need to get some sleep. I got to
turn this off. I need to submit that to God
and a good prayer. There is the Quaker prayer of
what they call palms up, palms down. So he said,
I got a problem I can't deal with. I'm gonna
turn my palms over. God, you'd let it fall out
of my hands. And now I'm gonna turn my palms over.
(25:07):
Fill me up with rest and peace and comfort and
kindness and all the things that I need to sleep
right now, and the things that I need to fill
my mind with right now. I'm gonna turn my palms
up and let you fill that in. If you switch
your brain into that sort of thought process, you'll sleep
and you'll get better. Right And then the third question
of it is I, even if it's true, and even
if it's necessary, is it compassionate? Is it useful? And
(25:29):
is it is it a kind thought to be thinking
about right now? And if it's not kind and it's
not necessary and it's not useful, then you don't need
to spend time worrying about it. Let God have it.
Just turn your palms down and let it go. So
that's a little introduction to some of the kinds of
things that we do in self brain surgery.
Speaker 2 (25:45):
I love it. I love it. Yeah, and guys, you
have to check out both of his podcasts. His books
are amazing. So where can they find you online? Where
can they find all of the goodness? Because you don't
hold back on your podcast either way. I just want
to kind of brag on you for a second, like
you literally share it all. It's you peel back the
curtain and it's just so robust, and it's like each
episode is its own chapter of an encyclopedia almost. It's
(26:08):
so so helpful and informational but also transformational. So that
being said, where can they find you? Where can they
follow you?
Speaker 3 (26:17):
So everywhere podcasts are found, you can find the Doctor
Lee Warren podcast or the Spiritual Brain Surgery podcast, both
of them. Doctor Lee Warren is science and faith. We
get nerd out on quantum physics and neuroscience and all
that kind of stuff. And then the Spiritual Brain Surgery
podcast is more directly spiritual content. Apologetics, what we believe,
whyle we believe it, how you can defend it to
other people, and how science plays into that. And they're everywhere.
(26:40):
Podcasts are found, and my website is doctor Leewarren dot com.
I have a substack newsletter that's read everywhere all over
the world every week and love to connect with people,
so check it out. Love to hear from you. We
pretty much reply to every email we get. Still that's
getting harder and harder, but we try really hard to
make a community out of it.
Speaker 2 (26:57):
So well, thank you for taking your time to be here.
Thank you for sharing your wisdom. Thank you for answering
the call from God to take your job and switch
into your calling to share share this good news with
all of us. So thanks for being here.
Speaker 3 (27:11):
That's awesome. Thank you so much, Gobloss.
Speaker 2 (27:12):
Bye, guys, we'll see you next time. We'll be back
with more what's God got to do with it? But
in the meantime, I would definitely love to hear from you,
So just tell me where you are in your story
or maybe what questions you have, like where do you
feel you need clarity or support or wisdom in your
own journey. I definitely want to hear from you, So
(27:34):
head on over to What's God Got to Do with It?
Dot com and scroll down to the form to share
your thoughts, your questions, your feedback, and you can do
that instantly. So What's God Got to Do with It?
Dot Com You'll find all the ways to do that.
And if you like this podcast and want to hear more,
go ahead and follow, like, and subscribe wherever you listen
(27:54):
to podcasts to get your weekly dose of What's God
Got to Do with It? New episode bodes drop every
single Tuesday, and while you're there, be sure to rate
and review to show your support. It really means so much.
What's God Got to Do With It Is an iHeartRadio
podcast on the Amy Brown Podcast Network. It's written and
(28:15):
hosted by me Leanne Ellington, executive produced by Elizabeth Fozzio,
post production and editing by Houston Tilley, and original music
written by Cheryl Stark and produced by Adam Stark
Host
Leanne Ellington
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