This week on What’s God Got To Do With It?, we’re talking about something that’s often avoided in church spaces—but deeply needed: sex, intimacy, and God’s true vision for marriage.
I’m so excited to welcome Sheila and Keith Gregoire to the podcast. Sheila is the voice behind BareMarriage.com and the author of over 11 books, including the eye-opening The Great Sex Rescue and her latest release, The Marriage You Want.
Together, Sheila and Keith have been helping couples move past shame, harmful theology, and broken intimacy scripts to build marriages rooted in mutuality, emotional safety, and real connection.
If you've ever struggled with what you were taught about sex, submission, or showing up in your marriage—this conversation is for you. And because there’s so much to unpack, we’ve split it into two powerful parts.
In Part 2, we explore how to heal the emotional and sexual wounds that hold couples back—and what it really takes to rebuild intimacy through safety, connection, and faith. Sheila & Keith also share practical tools for transforming conflict, communication, and closeness in a way that honors both God and each other.
This episode is all about going deeper into what happens when your marriage has experienced hurt, disconnection, or mistrust—and how to rebuild intimacy from the inside out.
GUEST: @sheilagregoire
Check out Sheila & Keith's website: baremarriage.com
Listen to the Bare Marriage Podcast HERE!
HOST: Leanne Ellington // StresslessEating.com // @leanneellington
To learn more about Leanne, head over to www.LeanneEllington.com, and to share your thoughts, questions, feedback, or guest suggestions instantly, head on over to www.WhatsGodGotToDoWithIt.com.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:08):
If you want to go on a journey. If you're skeptical,
don't worry. Now, get a preach, gonna keep it clean
and talk to me and recad where faith meets fills
nature and get in touch with your creator with a bacon,
love and je. She even speaks Hebrew. What's that gotta do?
(00:31):
What's that.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
This?
Speaker 1 (00:37):
Well said bobation. You should talking transformation? What's that got
to do?
Speaker 3 (00:44):
Hey?
Speaker 2 (00:45):
Hey?
Speaker 3 (00:45):
And welcome back to what's God got to do with it?
Speaker 4 (00:47):
We are back with Sheila and Keith greg War If
you missed last week, well, first of all, if you're
not familiar with their work, they are the voices and
the minds and the brains behind Bear b a. R. E.
Speaker 3 (00:59):
Bear Marriage Dot and the.
Speaker 4 (01:00):
Author of over eleven books, including The Great Sex Rescue,
their latest which is The Marriage that You Want. And
they've spent years just challenging the harmful messages that so
many of us were taught or maybe just never taught
about when it comes to snax in marriage, and instead
they offer healthier, more evidence based and biblically grounded paths
forward to manage and navigate these discussions, or at least
(01:22):
have them. And they're all about, you know, helping you
build real intimacy and emotional connection and mutual respect. But
they're also not afraid to call out what's not working, because,
as we talked about last week, there's a lot of
people that are speaking and there's no evidence, and they're
coming from this evidence based perspective of actually, this is
what's happening. So such a beautiful part of the work
that they do. So I can't wait for you to
hear this next part of the conversation. Where last week
(01:44):
we explored, you know, some of the more problematic messages
that distore marriage and intimacy, and so today we're going
to go deeper into Okay, what does healthy love and
emotional safety and mutual fulfillment.
Speaker 3 (01:56):
Actually look like in practice?
Speaker 4 (01:58):
So well, first of all, welcome back, thanks for thanks
for the amazing conversation last episode.
Speaker 5 (02:03):
Thank you great to be again.
Speaker 4 (02:05):
So what would you say if we're coming from this
place of okay, we have to rebuild right or or
create a new narrative, new scripts. Maybe there's some wounds
from our past that we don't want to bring with
us into our relationships and build true connection and healthy,
lasting love. What are some of the most common intimacy
wounds that you see in marriages or in individuals in marriages,
(02:27):
and how do we begin to heal those.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
So many of.
Speaker 5 (02:30):
Us intermarriage with trauma from our pasts, you know, And
it could be abuse of some sort, it could be
attachment wounds. Maybe your parents just weren't available to you,
emotionally available to you. And so we come in and
we're not whole, you know, We're looking for something that
I supposed can't truly provide, and there's just a hole
somewhere in our heart that needs to be healed, and
(02:53):
that is on us to heal. Like one of the
big things we say in chapter six or the marriage
you want is to take initiative to work on your stuff.
You really do your spouse, can't you? And I think
a lot of us get married. I know I certainly did,
thinking now someone's going to love me for the rest
of my life and I'll never be alone. And it's
wonderful to get married and not be alone. But when
(03:15):
that feeling flows from a wounded place instead of a
place of wholeness, that person will never be able to
truly make you feel not alone, because you're the problem here.
Because yes, and so we need to take We need
to take initiative, see a license, therapist, read some books,
whatever it is. And we can also have wounds from
our own relationship. You know, there can be betrayals, there
(03:36):
could be loss of trust. But a lot of us
just also we're not brought up to know how to
emotionally connect. So what is it that we want for
a marriage? What are we actually looking for? And I
like to say that marriage is about my spouse truly
knowing me and still loving me, and me truly knowing
my spouse and still loving them, which means that we
(03:59):
need to be able to by two things. We need
to be able to be vulnerable so that we can
let them in, and we need to be able to
provide safety so that they can open up. And those
are difficult things because a lot of us can't be
vulnerable with ourselves, Like a lot of us don't even
know what we think and feel. But that's what's so
(04:20):
beautiful is when you can that kind of intimacyus irreplaceable.
And I think that's what we're really creative for, is
known and still loved.
Speaker 4 (04:29):
Yeah, you're saying so many important things, but I feel
like you know really again coming back to this seme
of cleaning up our own side of the street. And
you know, it's not fair for me to expect my
husband to be all things, all the time, everything fulfill
all of my needs in every way, shape or form, like,
that's not a fair expectation to set him up for.
Speaker 2 (04:50):
I agree, But you know there's a balance as well too,
because one of the beautiful things about marriage is like
when one of you is weak, the other can be strong.
And so when you're going through a hard time and
you're having difficulty, you know, being there for each other.
Speaker 5 (05:03):
That's part of marriage.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
But it has to be an equal give and take.
But as a couple, if one person is chronically the
one that is repairing, when when there's a difficulty in
the relationship, when you fought, and it's always relies on
one spouse to make it right again or to fix things,
or to be the person to initiate that kind of
stuff that wears on a marriage. Right, you have to
(05:25):
both be stepping up to the plate, and you're not
always going to be on your game and you're gonna
need to rely on your spouse. But then you need
to be there for your spouse when they're not on
their game, and that's the whole thing.
Speaker 5 (05:35):
We should be growing together.
Speaker 2 (05:36):
And that's one of the reasons why I think that
a lot of this gender role stuff is particularly harmful
because it doesn't give you that flexibility. It's like you're
always supposed to be one way in the marriage and
your spouse is always supposed to be a different way
as opposed to us. Just realizing that, you know, when
in life it's messy, sometimes I'm leading and sometimes she's leading,
because that's where we're at, and that's okay, and God
doesn't have a problem with that, because when I'm we,
(05:58):
she's strong. When she's weak, I'm strong. And it's so
beautiful and it's so wonderful when you can trust each
other to be there for each other when those kind
of things happen.
Speaker 5 (06:07):
I can I play a devil's advocate, please always okay,
Because one of the problems when one suppo says you
can't expect me to fulfill those needs of yours is
that can be true, but it can also be false.
We need to have a way of looking at this
from a different perspective because what often happens is when
(06:28):
couples are having a disagreement, the question is, Okay, what
do you need and what do I need? Right, and
we just need to compromise. We each just need to
meet each other's needs. But what if that isn't actually
a legitimate way of looking at this? And so I
want to introduce people to the concept that we call
the marriage hierarchy of needs, And it's kind of based
on Maslow's hierarchy of needs. He's a psychologist. He pictured
(06:49):
needs kind of like a pyramid where at the bottom
you have the basic ones, right, food, water, shelter, safety,
and other ones like just enjoying life, friendship, and then
finally at the top here you have self actualization, realizing
you're calling, et cetera. And the key thing to remember
is that you can't get up that pyramid unless your
basic ones are met. So no one is worried about
(07:09):
having sex when you're getting chased by a bear, right,
And I think as similar things happen in marriage, where
there's certain things that are just basic survival. We got
to get the kids out the door to school in
the morning, dinner has to be made, laundry has to
be done, we got to make the rent on time,
so you have basic survival, and then moving up from there,
you get into like, Okay, you know, we can actually
(07:31):
have some fun together, we can enjoy our sex life,
we can find a church we love, we can find friends,
and then you get up to living out your calling,
living out your passions, truly feeling intimate. And part of
the problem is that often one spouse is up there
living out their calling at the expense of the other.
So one spouse is enjoying that top tier level life
(07:56):
while the other spouse is stuck in survival mode. We
see this a lot in marriage. I'll tell a story
that I told in the marriage you want, because I
think it fits perfectly. But take a couple, Gabriella and Brad.
They've been married for ten years, they got three kids.
Gabrielle is a nurse. She does a lot of shift work.
She's super busy, tired all the time. She also does
most of the child care and arranges childcare when she's
(08:18):
at work, and so she's just run off her feet.
So sex kind of fell by the wayside. And then
six months ago Brad confessed that during their whole marriage
he's been watching porn and so sex, which already was
on life support is now non existent, and Brad is
really frustrated by this, and so he says, let's go
talk to our pastor. And the pastor listens to them
(08:39):
both and says, okay, look, Gabriella, Brad needs you, you know,
to give him more sex. But Brad, Gabriella really needs
you to show up with the kids. So how about
Brad starts doing bathtime with the kids every night, and Gabriella,
you know, you give him sex a little bit more.
Speaker 3 (08:54):
So transactional exactly.
Speaker 5 (08:57):
But that's often what we hear, right that we just promise. Yeah,
but what if Gabriella is in that survival tear where
she's barely getting by and Brad is worrying about things
further up the pyramid, and you know, he can be saying,
you're not meeting my needs, but right now, whose needs
(09:18):
are take priority? And the person who is furthest down
the pyramid, your marriage exists at the level that the
lowest person exists and so barely surviving. Your marriage is
barely surviving.
Speaker 3 (09:30):
So instead of.
Speaker 5 (09:31):
Telling Brad and Gabrielle they just need to compromise, we
need to tell Brad he needs to get in the
trenches with his wife and it needs to look after
the kids and help her not be so exhausted and
help her feel safe again after his porniest disclosure and
prove that he's trustworthy and then they can rebuild their
sex life.
Speaker 4 (09:49):
Absolutely. Yeah, no, this is so so powerful. And it's
when it, like you were saying, kind of full circle.
It's like this kind of healthy communication. It takes vulnerability,
and it takes saying like, hey, this is how I'm
feeling right now.
Speaker 3 (10:02):
I don't feel at my best. I need some support.
Speaker 4 (10:04):
But then also like like learning how when you're projecting
what is your side of the street to clean up
on somebody else. There's that delicate dance that's a balance, right,
And like you said, Keith, a moment ago like sometimes
you need one person to lead and one person to follow,
and one person to say hey I'm drowning and some
person to come rescue them, and then it flip flops, right,
But it's about building the skills and the ability to
(10:26):
weave that into your relationship rather than like I was
cringing when you were describing the transactional you know, bargaining that.
Speaker 3 (10:33):
Was happening there, you know, And it's just it.
Speaker 4 (10:35):
But you're right, that's how we're taught, and it's an
outdated method because it totally voids our emotional needs and
our spiritual needs and it just makes it our behavioral needs.
Speaker 3 (10:45):
And it's like, that's not the whole story, that's just
the symptom.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
Yeah. Yeah, we talk a lot in the book about entitlement,
and that's the problem. It's very easy to slip into
a way where you feel entitled to something, and so
therefore you can't understan why your supposed is not meeting
your need in this area, and it's so hard to
spot when you're be entitled. It's very easy to see
when your spouse is entitled, but it's not so easy
to see it for you. So by changing the concept
of who's going to get their needs met, by just
(11:09):
throwing that out and saying what does our marriage need
right now? Because in Gabrielle and Brad's marriage, I mean,
it's pretty clear what the priority should be, right and
when we say, yes, our marriage needs have it would
be great if our marriage had a good, thriving sex life,
but right now that should not be the priority.
Speaker 3 (11:26):
And if we try and get.
Speaker 2 (11:28):
That for me as Brad at the expense of my
wife and the marriage.
Speaker 5 (11:34):
It's just going to destroy itself.
Speaker 2 (11:36):
Whereas if you do its best for all of us
and get ourselves on a good foundation and address those
foundational issues first, then sexuality and an intimate relationship and
all those things can grow out of that foundation of
respect and care for each other and working on the
priorities and putting the big rocks in place where they
need to be. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (11:56):
Absolutely, it's you know, we're focusing on the color of
paint on the walls when there are some cracks in
the foundation and the roof is caving.
Speaker 3 (12:02):
In, like we need to put you know, survive before thrive.
Speaker 4 (12:15):
This actually is a perfect segue into what I wanted
to ask you guys next. You know, you talk about
the importance of emotional connection before physical intimacy. So what
did the research show you guys about that and how
do we really build that into practical ways to build
that connection?
Speaker 5 (12:31):
Yes, is part of the fun thing with data is
causation versus correlation, right, like, which direction does it go?
And it is confusing, It is confusing to try to
mesh it out. But basically what we found is that
happy couples tend to have more sex, all right, So
people who are having more sex, they tend to be happier.
(12:51):
But sex alone cannot create a happy marriage. Yeah, and
if someone is having sex and they're not feeling emotionally connected,
which does happen quite a bit, the marriage is actually
worse off. And so that emotional foundation matters so much
because sex is intensely personal. And when it feels like
(13:15):
my spouse just wants my body, or even if you
have a high libido and your spouse has a high
libido and you're kind of going through the motions but
you're both dissociating and you're both you know, it's really
just about the act and not about the person, then
it's going to feel like something really big is missing.
Speaker 3 (13:31):
Absolutely, so we have to.
Speaker 5 (13:33):
Work on emotional connection. And the problem is that emotional
connection can be really scary for people who didn't grow
up knowing how to express their emotions. And so sex
can feel a lot safer, yes, and a lot of
men men especially, but women can do this too. You
can channel your emotional needs into sex because sex lets
(13:56):
you feel connected without having to do the actual work
of connecting. And then you take a short cut. Yeah,
and that doesn't work in the long run.
Speaker 4 (14:04):
Absolutely, And then it comes back to what we were
talking about last episode about majority of women more so
than men. For sure, they feel used after sex or
they feel worse about themselves after sex because of these
things it's missing, and then they feel like they're a
body where like the physical intimacy is at the epicenter
of everything.
Speaker 3 (14:23):
It's just like that. That's again not what God intended.
Speaker 5 (14:26):
Right, It's not a majority of women, but it is
a big minority.
Speaker 4 (14:29):
Yeah, sorry, thank you, Yeah, thanks for for correcting the math,
but enough for it to be a thing that needs
to be talked about, because if you've ever felt it
and never heard it talked about, it's a source of
shame because you're doing something wrong or I shouldn't feel
this way, or again, I'm supposed to. I have a
duty and obligation. Yeah, it's so important what you guys
(14:49):
are bringing to light. So how can women express their
needs and their desires, you know, emotionally or sexually if
they've afraid to or have been told to stay silent.
What's the best way to say, like, hey, I'm I'm
in need here.
Speaker 3 (15:04):
Well, one of the things.
Speaker 2 (15:05):
I think is just refusing to go with that script
that you shouldn't speak out as.
Speaker 3 (15:10):
A woman, yeah amen.
Speaker 2 (15:11):
And I think as husbands giving your wife her voice
and say saying like I don't expect you to stay quiet,
and that sort of thing. One of the things that
Shila found was this message of obligation sex, that men
need sex regularly, women have to give it to them
or they're going to turn to porn or have an
affair or all these things. These kind of fear based
messages that we talked about last podcast, they're everywhere. One
(15:34):
of the things Sheila found in her studies for The Great
Sex Rescue was that in a lot of marriages, women
would go to their husbands and say, hey, this is
what I'm being taught, Like is this true? And the
husband would say heck no, Like that's I don't want
you to do anything out of obligation. Right. If we're
in the middle and you're you're you think no, not tonight.
(15:55):
I want you to tell me because I want to stop,
and that's not what I want. And in relationships where
women had felt used or sex was bad for them,
when they finally verbalized it and that husband said, I
don't want that and showed with their actions that they
were serious. Those women's libidos turned around and they had
a very fulfilling sex life. So I think that one
(16:16):
of the powerful things is just saying, like, you know,
don't be afraid to express what you want in the marriage.
And if if you're the kind of guy who has
a problem with his wife speaking up and saying what
she wants in marriage, do some soul searching, my friend,
and ask why that is and why do you feel
threatened by that? Because you've probably taken in and internalized
(16:36):
a lot of really unhelpful, toxic teachings. Because you know,
if you want the best for your wife, then you
really want to hear from her but what she wants.
And same thing too. I mean women, we can can
rear road men too, but I do think in the
Christian evangelical world it tends to go more in that direction.
Speaker 5 (16:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (16:53):
No, I love that you brought that up about about men,
you know, taking responsibility. We talk a lot about you know,
women taking responsibility for them and clean up their side
of the street. But I think it's really important that
it's like, hey, if that feels uncomfortable to you or
that feels foreign to you, then that's somewhere. That's somewhere
to go within and check and talk to God about that,
because that's that's something that I would just say God
wants more for the men in that situation.
Speaker 5 (17:14):
Yeah, exactly. And I think that that both of us
have need for intimacy. Yeah, I don't think that's always understood.
I think we assume that the need for intimacy is
a female.
Speaker 3 (17:26):
Thing, right, it's both.
Speaker 5 (17:28):
But God created both of us to desperately need to
be connected, and we can't always articulate that. Well, we're
not always used to knowing what that feels like or
everything that encompasses. But let's not assume that that men
don't need intimacy, because they do. Absolutely human beings need into.
Speaker 4 (17:49):
It's a human thing. Yeah, a thousand percent. I love
that you made that that distinction because it's true.
Speaker 3 (17:55):
It's it's one of those things.
Speaker 4 (17:55):
And if we don't know that that's part of how
we're wired, then again, we're not gonna go We're not
going to go to create awareness.
Speaker 3 (18:02):
We're not going to go create that for.
Speaker 4 (18:03):
Ourselves, or we're gonna maybe outsource it as somebody else's responsibility.
Depending on where we live in the marriage, right or
in the relationship. So, you know, when we're talking about
these powerful shifts that you see when couples rewire their
beliefs and their scripts about intimacy and move towards healthy connection, Like, so,
what what have you seen off the back of that, like,
show us what's possible?
Speaker 5 (18:24):
We see it mostly with sex, just because that's what
we've been talking right, right, But you know, there's a
lot of pain. There's a lot of pain out there,
sometimes literally, because evangelical women suffer from sexual pain disorders
at twice the rate of the general population, and a
lot of those pain disorders have their root in the
(18:46):
beliefs that we have growing up. Beliefs like you need
to dress modestly so you're not a stumbling block to
the boys around, Beliefs like obligation sex. All of these
things conspire, you know, to make women feel like sex
is something that's hurtful to me, that's a threat to me,
and even obligation, like Keith was saying, you know, we
(19:07):
talked to so many women who when they were finally
able to talk to their husbands about what they believed
that was such a healing thing because often we internalize
these scripts that we've never verbalized, and our spouse doesn't
even realize what we're thinking or expecting of ourselves. You know,
if you grew up feeling as a guy like you
(19:28):
have to be the sole provider that you're responsible for
the family, that's an awfully heavy burden to carry. Oh yeah,
and it doesn't need to be something that you carry along.
God never intended that, but a lot of people are
carrying these burdens and believing these things without verbalizing them.
And when you can and your spouse says, wait a minute,
you don't need to go through this alone, or you
(19:50):
don't need to believe that I'm ever going to be
a threat to you. I love you. I'm always going
to be here. Like, isn't that beautiful how healing can
actually happen?
Speaker 3 (20:00):
Oh so good. Yeah, everyone, you need to read their books.
I'm just advocating.
Speaker 4 (20:05):
I feel like this is just such important work that
you all are doing and coming from so many different perspectives.
Hence why you have so many books, because they all
demand to.
Speaker 3 (20:13):
Be talked about.
Speaker 4 (20:13):
Right, So bringing it back to the bigger picture, you know,
this is what's God got to do with It podcast.
So what does God have to do with a healthy
marriage and intimacy? What would you all say about that?
Speaker 2 (20:25):
Oh? Watch, we have quite a bit of data about.
Speaker 3 (20:27):
That share book.
Speaker 2 (20:29):
Yes, yeah, we did scales of metal flourishing and how
often you talked about spiritual things and how often you
prayed together. We found that, you know, talk about spiritual
things regularly and praying together does correlate with stronger, more
satisfying marriages. Talking about spiritual things actually more so than
even than prayer. And we theorize why that is. And
(20:49):
I think a lot of times, you know, we've talked
a lot in this podcast about how sometimes people have
a hard time expressing their emotions or their fears or
or those vomo parts themselves. But when you pray, you know,
it's like you come to God and you kind of
have to bring who you really are are. And in
this sense, prayer is a little bit like you know,
(21:10):
revealing yourself emotionally, training wheels, you know, like you can
actually share what's on your heart in a way that
feels safe and doesn't feel odd, that you can actually
put things out there, you know, And our data showed
that in marriage is where they had a harder time
connecting emotionally. The effects of praying together regularly was even greater.
And I think it's because of those kinds of things.
(21:32):
So I certainly think that those shared beliefs and the
practices of spirituality can often bind you together, you know,
in quite a deep way. And we talk about, you
know a lot of ways to connect emotionally. One of
them is actually with an ignation practice.
Speaker 5 (21:48):
Yeah it's kind of fun, but this is let me
just leave you with something really practical wrapping up, okay, please,
So if you have a hard time sharing emotionally, if
you don't even know what that means, here's something you
can add to your day. It doesn't need to take
a long time, maybe five minutes, but share two emotional
windows with your spouse. So at the end of the day,
just say, okay, what was the time today where I
(22:11):
was the most in the group, the Holy Spirit was
working through me. I'm doing what I was put on
this earth to do. It was amazing. And what was
the time when I felt the most defeated, like I
hate this, I can't do this, this sucks. And when
you share those two moments, it's like your spouse gets
a window into who you really are, and you also
get a window into who you really are because sometimes
(22:32):
you don't think about these things. But when you have
to get into practice of saying, Okay, what was the
moment I was the most defeated today, it's like, oh,
I'm learning something about myself and my spouse is learning
something about themselves, because what do we usually at the
end of the day, you know, Oh, what did you
do today?
Speaker 2 (22:47):
Well?
Speaker 5 (22:47):
I had six client meetings, I went to the at noon,
you know, I went to the bank after work. Like
that doesn't tell you anything.
Speaker 4 (22:53):
Right, exactly right? Yeah, oh my god. And we're spending
the time anyways having these conversations. Just having that little,
you know, minimal shift in the trajectory of the conversation
opens us up to actually be able to connect. Yeah,
oh my gosh. You guys are a wealth of knowledge.
Where can people find you? Read your stuff? Stock you
You have a podcast, tell us tell Us at All.
Speaker 5 (23:16):
Yes, So I'm at bear Marriage dot com, B A
R E. And you can find our books there, The
Marriage you Want, the Great Sex Rescue. They're all there,
as well as all my social media platforms. And our
podcast is every Thursday it's the Bear Marriage Podcast, and
it's super fun and we get a little starky. We
love this, but it's always full of data and quite
thought provoking.
Speaker 3 (23:36):
Beautiful, awesome. Sheila and Keith, thank you so much for
being here. We will link all of that in the
show notes.
Speaker 4 (23:41):
Thanks for just shining a light on these important topics
and for just the work that you're doing.
Speaker 3 (23:46):
I can see, I mean, I know how.
Speaker 4 (23:49):
It's just opened me up and it's making me ask
such better questions and give myself a lot more grace
and give my husband more grace and seeing things for
what they are and how God intended.
Speaker 3 (23:57):
So thanks for just doing the work that you all
are doing. Thank you, thank you, Thanks amazing, Thanks so much.
We will be back for more God Pod next week. Bye.
Speaker 4 (24:08):
We'll be back with more What's God Got to Do
with It? But in the meantime, I would definitely love
to hear from you, so just tell me where you
are in your story or maybe what questions you have,
like where do you feel you need clarity or support
or wisdom in your own journey. I definitely want to
hear from you, so head on over to What's God
(24:28):
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to the form to share your thoughts, your questions, your feedback, and.
Speaker 3 (24:34):
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Speaker 4 (25:01):
What's God Got to Do With It is an iHeartRadio
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hosted by me Leanne Ellington, executive produced by Elizabeth Fazio,
post production and editing by Houston Tilley, and original music
written by Cheryl Stark and produced by Adam Stark
If you want to go on a journey. If you're skeptical,
don't worry. Now, get a preach, gonna keep it clean
and talk to me and recad where faith meets fills
nature and get in touch with your creator with a bacon,
love and je. She even speaks Hebrew. What's that gotta do?
(00:31):
What's that.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
This?
Speaker 1 (00:37):
Well said bobation. You should talking transformation? What's that got
to do?
Speaker 3 (00:44):
Hey?
Speaker 2 (00:45):
Hey?
Speaker 3 (00:45):
And welcome back to what's God got to do with it?
Speaker 4 (00:47):
We are back with Sheila and Keith greg War If
you missed last week, well, first of all, if you're
not familiar with their work, they are the voices and
the minds and the brains behind Bear b a. R. E.
Speaker 3 (00:59):
Bear Marriage Dot and the.
Speaker 4 (01:00):
Author of over eleven books, including The Great Sex Rescue,
their latest which is The Marriage that You Want. And
they've spent years just challenging the harmful messages that so
many of us were taught or maybe just never taught
about when it comes to snax in marriage, and instead
they offer healthier, more evidence based and biblically grounded paths
forward to manage and navigate these discussions, or at least
(01:22):
have them. And they're all about, you know, helping you
build real intimacy and emotional connection and mutual respect. But
they're also not afraid to call out what's not working, because,
as we talked about last week, there's a lot of
people that are speaking and there's no evidence, and they're
coming from this evidence based perspective of actually, this is
what's happening. So such a beautiful part of the work
that they do. So I can't wait for you to
hear this next part of the conversation. Where last week
(01:44):
we explored, you know, some of the more problematic messages
that distore marriage and intimacy, and so today we're going
to go deeper into Okay, what does healthy love and
emotional safety and mutual fulfillment.
Speaker 3 (01:56):
Actually look like in practice?
Speaker 4 (01:58):
So well, first of all, welcome back, thanks for thanks
for the amazing conversation last episode.
Speaker 5 (02:03):
Thank you great to be again.
Speaker 4 (02:05):
So what would you say if we're coming from this
place of okay, we have to rebuild right or or
create a new narrative, new scripts. Maybe there's some wounds
from our past that we don't want to bring with
us into our relationships and build true connection and healthy,
lasting love. What are some of the most common intimacy
wounds that you see in marriages or in individuals in marriages,
(02:27):
and how do we begin to heal those.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
So many of.
Speaker 5 (02:30):
Us intermarriage with trauma from our pasts, you know, And
it could be abuse of some sort, it could be
attachment wounds. Maybe your parents just weren't available to you,
emotionally available to you. And so we come in and
we're not whole, you know, We're looking for something that
I supposed can't truly provide, and there's just a hole
somewhere in our heart that needs to be healed, and
(02:53):
that is on us to heal. Like one of the
big things we say in chapter six or the marriage
you want is to take initiative to work on your stuff.
You really do your spouse, can't you? And I think
a lot of us get married. I know I certainly did,
thinking now someone's going to love me for the rest
of my life and I'll never be alone. And it's
wonderful to get married and not be alone. But when
(03:15):
that feeling flows from a wounded place instead of a
place of wholeness, that person will never be able to
truly make you feel not alone, because you're the problem here.
Because yes, and so we need to take We need
to take initiative, see a license, therapist, read some books,
whatever it is. And we can also have wounds from
our own relationship. You know, there can be betrayals, there
(03:36):
could be loss of trust. But a lot of us
just also we're not brought up to know how to
emotionally connect. So what is it that we want for
a marriage? What are we actually looking for? And I
like to say that marriage is about my spouse truly
knowing me and still loving me, and me truly knowing
my spouse and still loving them, which means that we
(03:59):
need to be able to by two things. We need
to be able to be vulnerable so that we can
let them in, and we need to be able to
provide safety so that they can open up. And those
are difficult things because a lot of us can't be
vulnerable with ourselves, Like a lot of us don't even
know what we think and feel. But that's what's so
(04:20):
beautiful is when you can that kind of intimacyus irreplaceable.
And I think that's what we're really creative for, is
known and still loved.
Speaker 4 (04:29):
Yeah, you're saying so many important things, but I feel
like you know really again coming back to this seme
of cleaning up our own side of the street. And
you know, it's not fair for me to expect my
husband to be all things, all the time, everything fulfill
all of my needs in every way, shape or form, like,
that's not a fair expectation to set him up for.
Speaker 2 (04:50):
I agree, But you know there's a balance as well too,
because one of the beautiful things about marriage is like
when one of you is weak, the other can be strong.
And so when you're going through a hard time and
you're having difficulty, you know, being there for each other.
Speaker 5 (05:03):
That's part of marriage.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
But it has to be an equal give and take.
But as a couple, if one person is chronically the
one that is repairing, when when there's a difficulty in
the relationship, when you fought, and it's always relies on
one spouse to make it right again or to fix things,
or to be the person to initiate that kind of
stuff that wears on a marriage. Right, you have to
(05:25):
both be stepping up to the plate, and you're not
always going to be on your game and you're gonna
need to rely on your spouse. But then you need
to be there for your spouse when they're not on
their game, and that's the whole thing.
Speaker 5 (05:35):
We should be growing together.
Speaker 2 (05:36):
And that's one of the reasons why I think that
a lot of this gender role stuff is particularly harmful
because it doesn't give you that flexibility. It's like you're
always supposed to be one way in the marriage and
your spouse is always supposed to be a different way
as opposed to us. Just realizing that, you know, when
in life it's messy, sometimes I'm leading and sometimes she's leading,
because that's where we're at, and that's okay, and God
doesn't have a problem with that, because when I'm we,
(05:58):
she's strong. When she's weak, I'm strong. And it's so
beautiful and it's so wonderful when you can trust each
other to be there for each other when those kind
of things happen.
Speaker 5 (06:07):
I can I play a devil's advocate, please always okay,
Because one of the problems when one suppo says you
can't expect me to fulfill those needs of yours is
that can be true, but it can also be false.
We need to have a way of looking at this
from a different perspective because what often happens is when
(06:28):
couples are having a disagreement, the question is, Okay, what
do you need and what do I need? Right, and
we just need to compromise. We each just need to
meet each other's needs. But what if that isn't actually
a legitimate way of looking at this? And so I
want to introduce people to the concept that we call
the marriage hierarchy of needs, And it's kind of based
on Maslow's hierarchy of needs. He's a psychologist. He pictured
(06:49):
needs kind of like a pyramid where at the bottom
you have the basic ones, right, food, water, shelter, safety,
and other ones like just enjoying life, friendship, and then
finally at the top here you have self actualization, realizing
you're calling, et cetera. And the key thing to remember
is that you can't get up that pyramid unless your
basic ones are met. So no one is worried about
(07:09):
having sex when you're getting chased by a bear, right,
And I think as similar things happen in marriage, where
there's certain things that are just basic survival. We got
to get the kids out the door to school in
the morning, dinner has to be made, laundry has to
be done, we got to make the rent on time,
so you have basic survival, and then moving up from there,
you get into like, Okay, you know, we can actually
(07:31):
have some fun together, we can enjoy our sex life,
we can find a church we love, we can find friends,
and then you get up to living out your calling,
living out your passions, truly feeling intimate. And part of
the problem is that often one spouse is up there
living out their calling at the expense of the other.
So one spouse is enjoying that top tier level life
(07:56):
while the other spouse is stuck in survival mode. We
see this a lot in marriage. I'll tell a story
that I told in the marriage you want, because I
think it fits perfectly. But take a couple, Gabriella and Brad.
They've been married for ten years, they got three kids.
Gabrielle is a nurse. She does a lot of shift work.
She's super busy, tired all the time. She also does
most of the child care and arranges childcare when she's
(08:18):
at work, and so she's just run off her feet.
So sex kind of fell by the wayside. And then
six months ago Brad confessed that during their whole marriage
he's been watching porn and so sex, which already was
on life support is now non existent, and Brad is
really frustrated by this, and so he says, let's go
talk to our pastor. And the pastor listens to them
(08:39):
both and says, okay, look, Gabriella, Brad needs you, you know,
to give him more sex. But Brad, Gabriella really needs
you to show up with the kids. So how about
Brad starts doing bathtime with the kids every night, and Gabriella,
you know, you give him sex a little bit more.
Speaker 3 (08:54):
So transactional exactly.
Speaker 5 (08:57):
But that's often what we hear, right that we just promise. Yeah,
but what if Gabriella is in that survival tear where
she's barely getting by and Brad is worrying about things
further up the pyramid, and you know, he can be saying,
you're not meeting my needs, but right now, whose needs
(09:18):
are take priority? And the person who is furthest down
the pyramid, your marriage exists at the level that the
lowest person exists and so barely surviving. Your marriage is
barely surviving.
Speaker 3 (09:30):
So instead of.
Speaker 5 (09:31):
Telling Brad and Gabrielle they just need to compromise, we
need to tell Brad he needs to get in the
trenches with his wife and it needs to look after
the kids and help her not be so exhausted and
help her feel safe again after his porniest disclosure and
prove that he's trustworthy and then they can rebuild their
sex life.
Speaker 4 (09:49):
Absolutely. Yeah, no, this is so so powerful. And it's
when it, like you were saying, kind of full circle.
It's like this kind of healthy communication. It takes vulnerability,
and it takes saying like, hey, this is how I'm
feeling right now.
Speaker 3 (10:02):
I don't feel at my best. I need some support.
Speaker 4 (10:04):
But then also like like learning how when you're projecting
what is your side of the street to clean up
on somebody else. There's that delicate dance that's a balance, right,
And like you said, Keith, a moment ago like sometimes
you need one person to lead and one person to follow,
and one person to say hey I'm drowning and some
person to come rescue them, and then it flip flops, right,
But it's about building the skills and the ability to
(10:26):
weave that into your relationship rather than like I was
cringing when you were describing the transactional you know, bargaining that.
Speaker 3 (10:33):
Was happening there, you know, And it's just it.
Speaker 4 (10:35):
But you're right, that's how we're taught, and it's an
outdated method because it totally voids our emotional needs and
our spiritual needs and it just makes it our behavioral needs.
Speaker 3 (10:45):
And it's like, that's not the whole story, that's just
the symptom.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
Yeah. Yeah, we talk a lot in the book about entitlement,
and that's the problem. It's very easy to slip into
a way where you feel entitled to something, and so
therefore you can't understan why your supposed is not meeting
your need in this area, and it's so hard to
spot when you're be entitled. It's very easy to see
when your spouse is entitled, but it's not so easy
to see it for you. So by changing the concept
of who's going to get their needs met, by just
(11:09):
throwing that out and saying what does our marriage need
right now? Because in Gabrielle and Brad's marriage, I mean,
it's pretty clear what the priority should be, right and
when we say, yes, our marriage needs have it would
be great if our marriage had a good, thriving sex life,
but right now that should not be the priority.
Speaker 3 (11:26):
And if we try and get.
Speaker 2 (11:28):
That for me as Brad at the expense of my
wife and the marriage.
Speaker 5 (11:34):
It's just going to destroy itself.
Speaker 2 (11:36):
Whereas if you do its best for all of us
and get ourselves on a good foundation and address those
foundational issues first, then sexuality and an intimate relationship and
all those things can grow out of that foundation of
respect and care for each other and working on the
priorities and putting the big rocks in place where they
need to be. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (11:56):
Absolutely, it's you know, we're focusing on the color of
paint on the walls when there are some cracks in
the foundation and the roof is caving.
Speaker 3 (12:02):
In, like we need to put you know, survive before thrive.
Speaker 4 (12:15):
This actually is a perfect segue into what I wanted
to ask you guys next. You know, you talk about
the importance of emotional connection before physical intimacy. So what
did the research show you guys about that and how
do we really build that into practical ways to build
that connection?
Speaker 5 (12:31):
Yes, is part of the fun thing with data is
causation versus correlation, right, like, which direction does it go?
And it is confusing, It is confusing to try to
mesh it out. But basically what we found is that
happy couples tend to have more sex, all right, So
people who are having more sex, they tend to be happier.
(12:51):
But sex alone cannot create a happy marriage. Yeah, and
if someone is having sex and they're not feeling emotionally connected,
which does happen quite a bit, the marriage is actually
worse off. And so that emotional foundation matters so much
because sex is intensely personal. And when it feels like
(13:15):
my spouse just wants my body, or even if you
have a high libido and your spouse has a high
libido and you're kind of going through the motions but
you're both dissociating and you're both you know, it's really
just about the act and not about the person, then
it's going to feel like something really big is missing.
Speaker 3 (13:31):
Absolutely, so we have to.
Speaker 5 (13:33):
Work on emotional connection. And the problem is that emotional
connection can be really scary for people who didn't grow
up knowing how to express their emotions. And so sex
can feel a lot safer, yes, and a lot of
men men especially, but women can do this too. You
can channel your emotional needs into sex because sex lets
(13:56):
you feel connected without having to do the actual work
of connecting. And then you take a short cut. Yeah,
and that doesn't work in the long run.
Speaker 4 (14:04):
Absolutely, And then it comes back to what we were
talking about last episode about majority of women more so
than men. For sure, they feel used after sex or
they feel worse about themselves after sex because of these
things it's missing, and then they feel like they're a
body where like the physical intimacy is at the epicenter
of everything.
Speaker 3 (14:23):
It's just like that. That's again not what God intended.
Speaker 5 (14:26):
Right, It's not a majority of women, but it is
a big minority.
Speaker 4 (14:29):
Yeah, sorry, thank you, Yeah, thanks for for correcting the math,
but enough for it to be a thing that needs
to be talked about, because if you've ever felt it
and never heard it talked about, it's a source of
shame because you're doing something wrong or I shouldn't feel
this way, or again, I'm supposed to. I have a
duty and obligation. Yeah, it's so important what you guys
(14:49):
are bringing to light. So how can women express their
needs and their desires, you know, emotionally or sexually if
they've afraid to or have been told to stay silent.
What's the best way to say, like, hey, I'm I'm
in need here.
Speaker 3 (15:04):
Well, one of the things.
Speaker 2 (15:05):
I think is just refusing to go with that script
that you shouldn't speak out as.
Speaker 3 (15:10):
A woman, yeah amen.
Speaker 2 (15:11):
And I think as husbands giving your wife her voice
and say saying like I don't expect you to stay quiet,
and that sort of thing. One of the things that
Shila found was this message of obligation sex, that men
need sex regularly, women have to give it to them
or they're going to turn to porn or have an
affair or all these things. These kind of fear based
messages that we talked about last podcast, they're everywhere. One
(15:34):
of the things Sheila found in her studies for The Great
Sex Rescue was that in a lot of marriages, women
would go to their husbands and say, hey, this is
what I'm being taught, Like is this true? And the
husband would say heck no, Like that's I don't want
you to do anything out of obligation. Right. If we're
in the middle and you're you're you think no, not tonight.
(15:55):
I want you to tell me because I want to stop,
and that's not what I want. And in relationships where
women had felt used or sex was bad for them,
when they finally verbalized it and that husband said, I
don't want that and showed with their actions that they
were serious. Those women's libidos turned around and they had
a very fulfilling sex life. So I think that one
(16:16):
of the powerful things is just saying, like, you know,
don't be afraid to express what you want in the marriage.
And if if you're the kind of guy who has
a problem with his wife speaking up and saying what
she wants in marriage, do some soul searching, my friend,
and ask why that is and why do you feel
threatened by that? Because you've probably taken in and internalized
(16:36):
a lot of really unhelpful, toxic teachings. Because you know,
if you want the best for your wife, then you
really want to hear from her but what she wants.
And same thing too. I mean women, we can can
rear road men too, but I do think in the
Christian evangelical world it tends to go more in that direction.
Speaker 5 (16:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (16:53):
No, I love that you brought that up about about men,
you know, taking responsibility. We talk a lot about you know,
women taking responsibility for them and clean up their side
of the street. But I think it's really important that
it's like, hey, if that feels uncomfortable to you or
that feels foreign to you, then that's somewhere. That's somewhere
to go within and check and talk to God about that,
because that's that's something that I would just say God
wants more for the men in that situation.
Speaker 5 (17:14):
Yeah, exactly. And I think that that both of us
have need for intimacy. Yeah, I don't think that's always understood.
I think we assume that the need for intimacy is
a female.
Speaker 3 (17:26):
Thing, right, it's both.
Speaker 5 (17:28):
But God created both of us to desperately need to
be connected, and we can't always articulate that. Well, we're
not always used to knowing what that feels like or
everything that encompasses. But let's not assume that that men
don't need intimacy, because they do. Absolutely human beings need into.
Speaker 4 (17:49):
It's a human thing. Yeah, a thousand percent. I love
that you made that that distinction because it's true.
Speaker 3 (17:55):
It's it's one of those things.
Speaker 4 (17:55):
And if we don't know that that's part of how
we're wired, then again, we're not gonna go We're not
going to go to create awareness.
Speaker 3 (18:02):
We're not going to go create that for.
Speaker 4 (18:03):
Ourselves, or we're gonna maybe outsource it as somebody else's responsibility.
Depending on where we live in the marriage, right or
in the relationship. So, you know, when we're talking about
these powerful shifts that you see when couples rewire their
beliefs and their scripts about intimacy and move towards healthy connection, Like, so,
what what have you seen off the back of that, like,
show us what's possible?
Speaker 5 (18:24):
We see it mostly with sex, just because that's what
we've been talking right, right, But you know, there's a
lot of pain. There's a lot of pain out there,
sometimes literally, because evangelical women suffer from sexual pain disorders
at twice the rate of the general population, and a
lot of those pain disorders have their root in the
(18:46):
beliefs that we have growing up. Beliefs like you need
to dress modestly so you're not a stumbling block to
the boys around, Beliefs like obligation sex. All of these
things conspire, you know, to make women feel like sex
is something that's hurtful to me, that's a threat to me,
and even obligation, like Keith was saying, you know, we
(19:07):
talked to so many women who when they were finally
able to talk to their husbands about what they believed
that was such a healing thing because often we internalize
these scripts that we've never verbalized, and our spouse doesn't
even realize what we're thinking or expecting of ourselves. You know,
if you grew up feeling as a guy like you
(19:28):
have to be the sole provider that you're responsible for
the family, that's an awfully heavy burden to carry. Oh yeah,
and it doesn't need to be something that you carry along.
God never intended that, but a lot of people are
carrying these burdens and believing these things without verbalizing them.
And when you can and your spouse says, wait a minute,
you don't need to go through this alone, or you
(19:50):
don't need to believe that I'm ever going to be
a threat to you. I love you. I'm always going
to be here. Like, isn't that beautiful how healing can
actually happen?
Speaker 3 (20:00):
Oh so good. Yeah, everyone, you need to read their books.
I'm just advocating.
Speaker 4 (20:05):
I feel like this is just such important work that
you all are doing and coming from so many different perspectives.
Hence why you have so many books, because they all
demand to.
Speaker 3 (20:13):
Be talked about.
Speaker 4 (20:13):
Right, So bringing it back to the bigger picture, you know,
this is what's God got to do with It podcast.
So what does God have to do with a healthy
marriage and intimacy? What would you all say about that?
Speaker 2 (20:25):
Oh? Watch, we have quite a bit of data about.
Speaker 3 (20:27):
That share book.
Speaker 2 (20:29):
Yes, yeah, we did scales of metal flourishing and how
often you talked about spiritual things and how often you
prayed together. We found that, you know, talk about spiritual
things regularly and praying together does correlate with stronger, more
satisfying marriages. Talking about spiritual things actually more so than
even than prayer. And we theorize why that is. And
(20:49):
I think a lot of times, you know, we've talked
a lot in this podcast about how sometimes people have
a hard time expressing their emotions or their fears or
or those vomo parts themselves. But when you pray, you know,
it's like you come to God and you kind of
have to bring who you really are are. And in
this sense, prayer is a little bit like you know,
(21:10):
revealing yourself emotionally, training wheels, you know, like you can
actually share what's on your heart in a way that
feels safe and doesn't feel odd, that you can actually
put things out there, you know, And our data showed
that in marriage is where they had a harder time
connecting emotionally. The effects of praying together regularly was even greater.
And I think it's because of those kinds of things.
(21:32):
So I certainly think that those shared beliefs and the
practices of spirituality can often bind you together, you know,
in quite a deep way. And we talk about, you
know a lot of ways to connect emotionally. One of
them is actually with an ignation practice.
Speaker 5 (21:48):
Yeah it's kind of fun, but this is let me
just leave you with something really practical wrapping up, okay, please,
So if you have a hard time sharing emotionally, if
you don't even know what that means, here's something you
can add to your day. It doesn't need to take
a long time, maybe five minutes, but share two emotional
windows with your spouse. So at the end of the day,
just say, okay, what was the time today where I
(22:11):
was the most in the group, the Holy Spirit was
working through me. I'm doing what I was put on
this earth to do. It was amazing. And what was
the time when I felt the most defeated, like I
hate this, I can't do this, this sucks. And when
you share those two moments, it's like your spouse gets
a window into who you really are, and you also
get a window into who you really are because sometimes
(22:32):
you don't think about these things. But when you have
to get into practice of saying, Okay, what was the
moment I was the most defeated today, it's like, oh,
I'm learning something about myself and my spouse is learning
something about themselves, because what do we usually at the
end of the day, you know, Oh, what did you
do today?
Speaker 2 (22:47):
Well?
Speaker 5 (22:47):
I had six client meetings, I went to the at noon,
you know, I went to the bank after work. Like
that doesn't tell you anything.
Speaker 4 (22:53):
Right, exactly right? Yeah, oh my god. And we're spending
the time anyways having these conversations. Just having that little,
you know, minimal shift in the trajectory of the conversation
opens us up to actually be able to connect. Yeah,
oh my gosh. You guys are a wealth of knowledge.
Where can people find you? Read your stuff? Stock you
You have a podcast, tell us tell Us at All.
Speaker 5 (23:16):
Yes, So I'm at bear Marriage dot com, B A
R E. And you can find our books there, The
Marriage you Want, the Great Sex Rescue. They're all there,
as well as all my social media platforms. And our
podcast is every Thursday it's the Bear Marriage Podcast, and
it's super fun and we get a little starky. We
love this, but it's always full of data and quite
thought provoking.
Speaker 3 (23:36):
Beautiful, awesome. Sheila and Keith, thank you so much for
being here. We will link all of that in the
show notes.
Speaker 4 (23:41):
Thanks for just shining a light on these important topics
and for just the work that you're doing.
Speaker 3 (23:46):
I can see, I mean, I know how.
Speaker 4 (23:49):
It's just opened me up and it's making me ask
such better questions and give myself a lot more grace
and give my husband more grace and seeing things for
what they are and how God intended.
Speaker 3 (23:57):
So thanks for just doing the work that you all
are doing. Thank you, thank you, Thanks amazing, Thanks so much.
We will be back for more God Pod next week. Bye.
Speaker 4 (24:08):
We'll be back with more What's God Got to Do
with It? But in the meantime, I would definitely love
to hear from you, so just tell me where you
are in your story or maybe what questions you have,
like where do you feel you need clarity or support
or wisdom in your own journey. I definitely want to
hear from you, so head on over to What's God
(24:28):
Got to Do With It? Dot com and scroll down
to the form to share your thoughts, your questions, your feedback, and.
Speaker 3 (24:34):
You can do that instantly.
Speaker 4 (24:35):
So What's God Got to Do with It? Dot com
You'll find all the ways to do that. And if
you like this podcast and want to hear more, go
ahead and follow, like, and subscribe wherever you listen to
podcasts to get your weekly dose.
Speaker 3 (24:49):
Of What's God Got to Do With It?
Speaker 4 (24:51):
New episodes drop every single Tuesday, and while you're there.
Speaker 3 (24:55):
Be sure to rate and review to show your support.
It really means so much.
Speaker 4 (25:01):
What's God Got to Do With It is an iHeartRadio
podcast on the Amy Brown Podcast Network. It's written and
hosted by me Leanne Ellington, executive produced by Elizabeth Fazio,
post production and editing by Houston Tilley, and original music
written by Cheryl Stark and produced by Adam Stark
Host
Leanne Ellington
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