September 17, 2020 • 27 mins
Glennon Doyle and Abby Wambach stay with What’s Her Story for an extra episode! In Part 2, the two icons and our hosts discuss fighting for equal pay, being a boss (NOT a “lady boss”), and raising strong daughters and sensitive sons.
Glennon Doyle is an American author, activist, and speaker known for her #1 New York TImes bestsellers Untamed and Love Warrior and bestseller Carry On, Warrior. Abby Wambach is an American soccer icon, Olympic gold medalist, activist, speaker, and author of New York Times bestsellers Forward: A Memoir and WOLFPACK.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, I'm Amy Nelson and I'm Sam Edis. Welcome to
What's Her Story? With Sam and Amy On our podcast,
we talk about women's stories. We want to know everything
from how they built their business to what they eat
(00:20):
for breakfast. We think there's just incredible power and telling
stories and what women are doing and how they're living
big lives. If you are just joining us for the
first time, we are both moms. Between us, we have
seven children, not together, and we have two companies. Amy
is a CEO and founder of their Riveter and I
am the CEO and founder of park Place Payments, and
(00:43):
we think that we have a unique take on what
you are probably going through. UM. I once spent a
couple of days at Oprah's Live Your Best Life weekend,
and I had a chance to do these two minute
makeovers where people would have one minute tell me their
problem and I would have one minute to solve it.
And what end it up happening is that people really
all have the same exact problems. It was kind of amazing.
(01:04):
By the end of the day, there were only really
six problems people had. So I like to think we're
a lot more alike than we realize. Someday, Sam, You're
gonna have to tell me what those six problems are
because I probably have all six of them, particularly at
this point in my life. Um, but I will say too.
You know, we want to hear your stories. We want
to hear everything from what advice you need, to what
(01:25):
guests we should have on our show, and just in
general what's going on with your life. Sam and I
are friends. We talk about everything, and we want to
talk about it with you too, So you can reach
out to us on our website www dot What's her
Story podcast dot com, and on social media at What's
Her Story Podcast. You can also find all this information
in our show notes. If you are joining us for
(01:46):
the first time, you are in for a treat because
we are in part two of our interview with Abby
Wambach and Glennon Doyle to people that we admire so much,
and this is a rare interview because they are together,
and in part two we'll be talking about parenting, pay equity,
and so much more. If you didn't tune into part one,
(02:06):
you'll definitely want to go back and hear that one too.
Speaking of parenting, Sam, we usually talk every day, but
you were off the grid this weekend? How how was
it okay? So there are lots of ups and downs,
as there always are, right. I always say, the more
kids you have, the more you know. There's always someone
sad or someone sick, there's always a problem. But I
will say that I I think I belonged like when
(02:29):
people had kids together in like communes, because we spent
the week with my brother's family, and it was so
much fun and it was so much easier to parent
with more adults in the house, like between us, we
had four adults and five kids, and we it was
just so much more relaxed and so much more fun.
And you know, we were homeschooling all the kids, so
I'm not homeschooling, but they were zoom schooling. And then
(02:50):
we were each working, all four of us were working.
But somehow it just ran a little bit smoother, and
it was just like the lows were a lot less low.
It was just so much easier. However, were we punctuated
the trip at the end yesterday with an eleven hour
road trip home. It was supposed to take seven hours
and it was eleven hours. And as you know, Amy,
(03:11):
we have a nose screened in the car rule, which
is a little harder to enforce when you have two
kids with phones at this point, but we did it.
I went on social media and nath people for podcast recommendations,
and by our five my ten year old son starts screaming, going,
I am not forty years old. I don't want to
(03:32):
listen to this many hours of podcast. Oh my god, Sam,
So I love you. And I listened to probably of
your advice about parenting because you've been in this game
longer than I have. My kids are one to six.
Now I have to remember I have four kids. There's
too many, and they all just had birthdays. But nonetheless,
again I listened to like your advice about parenting, but
(03:55):
I will never listen to your no screen time rule.
We drive like thirty minutes and I'm like fire up
in minivan video. I had to say, you can't go
backwards on this rule, but you can't go forward. So like,
I don't think you could instill the rule now that
you haven't started it. But we never had screens in
the car, so it's kind of like my kids are
a little bit used to it. I mean, we definitely
(04:15):
tested the boundaries of it yesterday, and there are certainly
a lot of fighting in the car, which was you know,
interrupted by like stops for crappuccinos and things like that.
But it was a long day. Yeah, a long day.
That sounds like a long day. UM. I don't envy
that drive, but I do envy the trip. I'm glad
you got to go away. You know, this this season
(04:36):
for me has been hard to say the least. But
you know, with so many little kids and COVID like,
they're not going to mask up, so we can't really
go anywhere. We can't get on a plane. UM. So
what we do is to follow public health advice, we
spend a lot of time outside, very socially distanced from
other people. In this weekend, we did three different outside adventures.
We did two lakes where they went swimming. The first
(04:58):
time I didn't realize it was a swimming so my
kids just all got naked into their undies and swam
best most responsible mother. Um. And then the other time
we just we went to a beach that was amazing
here in Washington. And the good thing about my kids
because they wake up at the break of dawn. As
you know, I have at least one of my four
children up by five am every day. Is that we
(05:19):
were out the door by seven am, and so we
were done with the beach by ten when people started
to come. So it was very good. But I do
hear you on the communal parenting thing. It's something I
think about a lot. Uh As you know, I grew
up in Ohio, and my mother and father are from Columbus,
where I grew up. They went to my high school
up Burlington High School. Shout out to the Golden Bears.
(05:41):
But you know, I grew up with all with three
of my grandparents, and I grew up with My mom
has five siblings, my dad has two, and I grew
up with all of them and all my cousins, and
both my parents worked and they spent a lot of
time with me and my sister, but they both did
work and they had big jobs that they really loved,
which I knew. And I spent so much time just
around the rest of my family, my aunts, my uncles,
(06:03):
and my cousins, and it was so normal and I
loved it. And it's hard because I think my kids
won't have that. My sister lives in San Francisco, my
parents are still in Ohio, and I wonder how different
their childhood will be because of that. I mean, the
one thing aim is that they have each other. I mean,
having four kids, it's kind of like you have this
built in community, which is awesome. So it's interesting because
(06:23):
it was just you and your sister, and I think
it's so different when there's four of you. It's kind
of like you you always have a pal. Yeah, they're
like a little pack, especially during this time of COVID
when they see no other human beings. But parenting, I
think it's really amazing to hear how other parents do it.
And I love the stories that Glennon and Abbey tell
(06:44):
because you have this situation where you have a modern family,
right dealing with Glennon and Abbey. Abbey's a stepmom and
you know they're Glennon's ex husband is really involved. And
so I'm so excited to share this episode and dive
right into parenting with Abby won Back and Glennon Doyle.
You are raising a son, but you're also raising two girls.
(07:06):
I have four girls, which is so many girls, and
Sam has two greats and also a son. But when
you think about this, like how do you approach raising
daughters in this world? Where the system is set up
not for them. And granted, all of our children are
white and our sign well, yes, ours are brown Japanese
(07:27):
has Japanese. We have too that I feel like our
white passing and one that's not even close to white
passing and is has grown up as the only kid
of color in his schools. So it's interesting, it's not um,
it's a little different. Yeah, And to be clear, we
have one boy and two girls until they tell us otherwise.
I think that that's important thing to start off with.
(07:51):
And Glenn and you know, we've talked about this a lot,
and I'll let you tell the story about because when
you were pregnant with the girls, you know, you were like,
you're badass and you can do anything. You know, like
you have been whispering in the girl's ears that they
can be anything and fighting against the standardized ideas of
(08:11):
what it means to be a little girl in this world.
Glennan has been whispering and them and in their ears
all the opposition to that, like you can be brave,
you can be loud, you can tell you know. And
then we ask ourselves sometimes like are we whispering into
the ear of our son I have the exact same
as I have two girls. I was obsessed with raising
(08:32):
confident girls. They're never gonna worry about food and bodies
and all that stuff. And then I have a son
who's very sensitive and I've never ever thought about the messages.
I mean, he at one point said to me, we
don't hate all white men, do we, And like he's
going to grow up to be a white man, Like
he's so ultra feminist and he's been raised this way.
But there's also I totally get it, so so to
(08:55):
solve it, yeah, I don't know. I feel like, Um,
what I know is that even though even though to
consent point year zero, one person and thing goes to women,
even though I know, as a person who suffered from
eating disorders from all of it, what kind of battle
(09:18):
we're up against in a patriarchy. I wouldn't trade places
with a man for all the money in the world.
I feel like men in our culture are so screwed
right now. And you know, in writing Untamed, um, something
has happened since marrying a woman, which is in the
dynamics between me and men have changed, Okay, Like men
(09:38):
will actually talk to me now, and like reveal themselves
to me in ways that they wouldn't before. And I
don't know if it's because the the weird, like, oh god,
are we allowed to talk? Are we like being sexy?
Are we being too pull? Like? All that's gone because
they're like, oh cool, she's gay, Like she's you know,
we can be human beings together. Um. But I think
that boys are super super tamped. I think that I
(10:00):
was a third great teacher, and I know what it
is to see a little boy actually be human on
a playground and start crying. And I know what kind
of tribal tribal shaming happens in the immediacy of that. Um.
I know that I truly believe that like, one of
the reasons our planet is about to blow up is
because of toxic masculinity. Right is because men have been
(10:22):
given the power but given no permission to be human.
Right They that all of the characteristics that are necessary
for good leadership, which is like empathy and compassion and
mercy and vulnerability and um listening, um, have been assigned
feminine and so they've been shamed out of men and
(10:44):
dismissed in women. Right And so um, you know, I
think that this undoing of toxic masculinity is the best
thing we can do to save our boys and our girls.
There's nothing that breaks my heart more than hearing some one.
You know, you'll be at Disneyland or a public space
and you hear someone saying, man up, come on, you
(11:05):
know you're fine, and it just breaks your heart. It's
just it's so, it's just the perpose. We have to
start making those sayings a thing of the past, right.
I mean, I'm listening to some old school books on
tape and some of the language that they use so
racist and so sexist, and I'm just like, oh my gosh.
(11:27):
But like that is a part of what makes not
just our country, but our world so beautiful, is that
we are we are a part of the progress if
we want to be right. So when people say something
like they are not girl push ups, okay, they are
assisted push ups. And when you run like a girl,
(11:50):
right if you are a girl, you say, damn right,
I run like a girl. I throw like a girl too.
You want to you want me to show you? You know,
we have to be careful of the things that we say,
and we also have to monitor the things that we
let ourselves listen to, and we let our kids listen
to because they believe it. Eventually, if we don't say something,
(12:11):
they're gonna believe it and we're just gonna start over. Man,
I think every time I see a T shirt that
says girls can do anything, I'm like, oh god, I
feel the same way. The little girl didn't think. They
couldn't even know that. Hopefore are you idiots like power?
It's like yeah, everything like we are. We have to
(12:31):
be creative instead of reactive. Like every time we're building
something new, we need to be showing the way it
could be. Yes, and we do it to ourselves as
we as we become adult women too. Right, there are
so many phrases around women bosses like the lady like
I'm just a boss. I am a boss of a
big company. That is all. Like if it's just like,
(12:53):
but you have to just stop. You have to stop
all And we talk for a second about girls and
and and boys. Just in sports. Because I was a
former college Division one athlete, I was raised to just
play sports every single day of my childhood. I was
(13:15):
very pressured by a mother who was obsessed with me winning,
and as a reaction to that, I've put zero pressure
on my kids and we'll likely have no college athletes
in my home. So I feel like there's happy There
has to be a happy medium somewhere. So where is
that happy medium if you don't have an abbey in
your life? Who's saying, Tish, we're trying out for traveling
(13:36):
soccer even though you've never kicked a soccer book. Yeah,
I mean I think that we let the kids dictate
what they want to do. Um, you know, Tish, she
was an abbot, she is an avid soccer player, but
recently she's just picked up a guitar and is teaching
herself how to do that, teaching herself how to play
the piano, like writing songs, getting into music. Um, And
(13:58):
as your kids get older, you just have to offer
them different opportunities and different experiences so that they can
make the decision themselves. Like, of course, you know Craig
and myself that Craig played college soccer Division one. I
played soccer, obviously, Like it would be awesome for our
kids to play soccer because we know it. But I
(14:19):
don't care if they play soccer beyond high school or
if they keep playing for I don't want them to
do it for me quite frankly, like watching kids soccer
on the sidelines at their age is horrible. It's horrible.
It's terrible soccer back in and the balls ever inbounds,
(14:40):
and the kids think that they're Alex Morrigan. And I'm like, actually,
you're terrible at soccer the parents, and the parents think
that they're their kid on the field is Alex Morgan.
I'm like, my goodness. But here's the thing. The reason
why we have our kids in sports isn't because I
want them to play Division one soccer or I want
them to be a part of Division one athletics. That
(15:02):
would be awesome. I had a great experience, but I
also know that sports is one of the things in
my life that taught me humility, that taught me about leadership,
that taught me about collectively working through problems and solving problems, UM,
dealing with many different personalities in a in a space
that is sometimes too close UM and to help me
(15:26):
should have been trying to tackle. I mean, all of
us have this common goal, right, and how do you
get your team from here where you are to where
you ought to be and hopefully in line with reaching
some of those those common goals. Like all of that
stuff is life stuff, right, and and stuff that is
super um for me that will just benefit them for
(15:50):
the rest of their lives. So I don't care if
they played you one soccer or or not. Yeah, and
two things. First of all, what you're talking about is
this pendulum parenting idea, right that we like our parents
did one thing and we didn't dig it, so then
we go way to the other side and screw them
up equally just the other way, right, Like, like I
grew up in a family that I didn't feel like
(16:11):
would let me express my feelings. Okay, so my children
sometimes on like the third hour of tissue telling me
how she feels. I just want to say, you know what,
I steered you wrong? Like I should have taught you
the beauty of suffering silently right, like buttercut, just I
did you wrong. So like, the pendulum parenting is just
(16:34):
a thing. But like I think what you're talking about
could be any parent and child where the parent has
some kind of dream or expectation for the kid that
becomes their own thing and it's not even about the
kid anymore, which I find to be one of the
most detrimental things in a parent child relationship, ever, which
is not like good and bad. It's not evil, it
(16:56):
can it can feel like love when you're a parent, Right,
Like one time Tish came home and said, Mommy, Chase
wants me to be in these clubs in high school
and I don't want to be in these clubs. And
I was like, okay, so what's the problem. Just don't
be in the clubs and she said, well, I just
don't want to disappoint him. And it was like this
really important moment with Tish, and I said, listen, child, like,
(17:19):
your job for your entire life is to disappoint as
many people as you have to to make sure that
you do not disappoint yourself, right, And she said even you,
And I said, es especially neat, because how many people
do you know who are out there defying expectations, who
(17:39):
are being the badass, is living untamed, doing their thing.
But at the end of the day, their parents can
have been dead for twenty years and they're still living
every single day to earn a mommy or daddy's approval. Right.
The Hartist expectation to break is that one that has
planted us as in children, what do my parents expected
me and all of my success, it's been some whether
(18:00):
or not I'm measuring up not to my own ideals
and dreams and expectations, but to theirs. One of the
most beautiful parts of your book is just the expectations
of society that women are so stuck in and how
to break through that and how how dangerous it is.
I just I think that's so powerful for so many people.
(18:21):
And something that Abby advice that you give or you
talk about in the kids play Sports that I've read
is you asked them did you have fun? Did you
try your hardest? And when I read that, I love,
by the way, and I love watching you play, which
is that's amazing, you know what I thought? And did
you learn anything? And I love watching you play. When
(18:41):
I read that, I thought to myself about my own
childhood and playing sports because I was a swimmer and
a water problo player, and I thought about how much
fun it was. And then I thought to myself, I
should ask those questions of myself as a grown up
woman living my life. Oh that's good, Oh, and love that.
That's good. We all write like you know, I was
(19:01):
a lawyer and I left and started the company, and
I have so much more fun. I try my best,
I don't always win, I lose a lot, but like
it's much more fun. And those are the things I
think should dictate our grown up lives. And you know what.
The other thing you do ask sometimes, which I love,
is we'll get in the car and she'll go, so,
how do you think you did that at the end,
because we've learned sometimes they were the worst players on
(19:25):
the field, and we're like, oh god, they're gonna cry
there this they should cry. And they get in the
car and they're like, I feel I don't think I
was awesome. And we're like, oh glad we didn't say
anything first. And I'm like, so like letting them dictate
their own experience, their own fun, and even their own performance.
(19:47):
But we I know we only have you for another
few minutes, and we want to finish with three questions.
The first question is what would you say to the
women out there who are feeling stuck, whether it be
in a relationship or a rut, or a career or something.
Their life just feels like it's paused. Oh, I mean,
(20:11):
you just got to begin somewhere. I have had what
we call rock bottoms, bathroom floor, being on the bathroom
floor moments both of us and I've had a few
of them in my life. Um, and you have to
surround yourself with people you trust, you know, I mean
(20:32):
the thing that I learned playing on the national team
and the thing that I missed the most. It's not playing.
It's not the championships, it's nothing like that. It's the
idea of being around other badass, like minded people that
sometimes have to hold you up when you feel low,
when you feel down, when you've fallen in your your
hit your rock bottom. So for me, it's surround yourself
(20:54):
with good people. And I would say on it your discontent.
Women are taught to bury our discontent, that that if
we are longing for more, that it's a sign that
we're not grateful enough. Instead of just assuming that it's
if you can imagine more, it's likely a sign that
you were made for more. So honor the discontent, stay
in the distance, kind, ignite your imagination right down. What
(21:14):
is the truth if you're if you're discontent with your career,
what is the truth most beautiful career you can imagine? Right?
I love that if you can imagine more it's likely
a sign that you were made from our right. Okay,
next question. If you could wave a magic wand and
change one thing, what would you change about the world
your kids are growing up in that there was more
(21:37):
female leadership? M hm. I would start over in a
country that was not based on a cast system, that
was not based on genocide, and I just would start over.
I think racial inequalities just couldn't take hundreds of years
(21:58):
to get out of. Who do you think the three
next guests on our show should be? Have you had
Brittany path New yet? No, we've only had you. Oh yeah,
say that. I would have love E G I E
I would have I would have some of the defending
investors for the New Angel City s team that you're
(22:22):
we're founding investors on. I think that um Julie Erman
or Natalie Portman or Alexis Honey, and I think that
m Serena those folks who are trying to build their
own house as it relates to an industry that's been
pretty much dominated by men and white men specifically, that's good.
(22:43):
That's good. What about Dr Yabba Black? If you could
have Dr Blay and Toronto bark On together, those two.
Oh my god, great, there's just that's awesome. All right, Lou,
we want to bring you in for your final question.
Are you there? Yes, I'm here. So I've been incredibly
impacted for the past few weeks by by salmon amy
(23:06):
and now by YouTube, and it's and I feel more sensitive.
I feel like my walls are being torn down. I
feel like I'm I'm like the world is really opening
up to me, Like my life is literally about to
take off into another dimension of existence and reality and
it is amazing. And I used to be a real macho, macho, arrogant,
cocky person, you know. And so so for all the
(23:29):
men out there that that will be eventually listening to this,
that will start to be impacted, Um, do you have
a message for them, like maybe the even the men
who have the the ability to make change, so that
so that you all Cannet be like, yes, it's working.
You can start to see progression towards towards women, you know,
(23:50):
do you have anything that like a message you would
tell them? Yeah? I feel like, um, there there's all
these feminist women who are working till undo these ideas
and fight for equality. And and then what I often
hear from men is like, so where is this for
the men? Like where is this for the men? And
so what I want to say to them is where
is this for the men? Like, you guys gotta get together,
(24:14):
You guys gotta start having groups like women have where
you guys are reclaiming your humanity, you know, where you're
reclaiming vulnerability, where you're reclaiming mercy, where you're talking about
all of these because what happens I've seen so often.
I just saw this thing on Twitter where a man
came out said I just read untamed. Oh my god,
it is like broke my heart wide open. And the
(24:34):
the this tribal shaming that came to him afterwards, like
oh did you did you like walk into the wrong group?
Did you whatever? Like the shaming. We need men who
are gathering around other men and protecting their humanity, right,
who are doing what women are doing with each other,
because we can't do it for you, right. It's like
(24:55):
it reminds me of my when I'm working with other
activist groups who are led by women of color and
they're like, we need you to get your white people,
like we can't do all of this, Like we're over
here doing this. We can work with you after you've
done some work, but we need you to gather each
other and wake each other up, and when you get
to a certain point, we can work together. So that's
what I would say to you, like, start groups, show
(25:16):
up with each other, defend each other's humanity. Like like
it's like it's the world depends on its right. Yeah,
there's no one way liberation. Um. When we talk about feminism,
we're not just talking about freeing and giving women more
rights or more access. We're also telling and saying that
that that the men out there also have been limited
(25:40):
and also have been um kept down. And also because
guess what I mean. Look, being in power is not easy,
right being you lose your humanity, You lose your humanity. Yeah,
so it's a reclaiming of humanity. It's like that quote
that's like, if you've come to me to help me,
you're wasting your time. But if you're coming because your
(26:00):
liberation is tied to mind, let us begin. So that's
how I would say say about men, like, we don't
need men to help us anymore, please Jesus. What we
need is men who are wanting to help themselves, who
are wanting to free themselves from the cages of patriarchy
and then we can work together. It's good. One of
(26:22):
the things Amy that's so critical is that it's not
just women who are feminists, but that it's meant to
write and that part of part of kind of the
New World is going to be having strong women and
sensitive men. So it's not just important to raise strong girls,
but it's also important to raise sensitive boys. And I
(26:44):
love that this interview touched upon that. And I think that,
you know, Glennan and Abbey are such advocates for living full,
rich lives, for following your heart, and for raising really
healthy kids, and I think that they shared so much
of that with us. I couldn't get enough of them. Sam.
I completely agree and I cannot wait until our next
(27:06):
episode where we talk with the legend, the one and
only Arianna Huffington. She is incredible in our conversation, will
wow you Before we go. I want to thank our
amazing team. Thank you, Too Large Media. Find them at
l A r J media dot com. They are a
woman owned and operated podcast company that we love working with.
(27:28):
Thank you also to our podcast associate producer Emma Hard
and our sound engineer Lou Burns and of course I
heart thank you so much, so so so much, and
your time is so valuable. We love you, guys, thank
thank you. To the ending that was amazing. Thank you Bye,
Hi, I'm Amy Nelson and I'm Sam Edis. Welcome to
What's Her Story? With Sam and Amy On our podcast,
we talk about women's stories. We want to know everything
from how they built their business to what they eat
(00:20):
for breakfast. We think there's just incredible power and telling
stories and what women are doing and how they're living
big lives. If you are just joining us for the
first time, we are both moms. Between us, we have
seven children, not together, and we have two companies. Amy
is a CEO and founder of their Riveter and I
am the CEO and founder of park Place Payments, and
(00:43):
we think that we have a unique take on what
you are probably going through. UM. I once spent a
couple of days at Oprah's Live Your Best Life weekend,
and I had a chance to do these two minute
makeovers where people would have one minute tell me their
problem and I would have one minute to solve it.
And what end it up happening is that people really
all have the same exact problems. It was kind of amazing.
(01:04):
By the end of the day, there were only really
six problems people had. So I like to think we're
a lot more alike than we realize. Someday, Sam, You're
gonna have to tell me what those six problems are
because I probably have all six of them, particularly at
this point in my life. Um, but I will say too.
You know, we want to hear your stories. We want
to hear everything from what advice you need, to what
(01:25):
guests we should have on our show, and just in
general what's going on with your life. Sam and I
are friends. We talk about everything, and we want to
talk about it with you too, So you can reach
out to us on our website www dot What's her
Story podcast dot com, and on social media at What's
Her Story Podcast. You can also find all this information
in our show notes. If you are joining us for
(01:46):
the first time, you are in for a treat because
we are in part two of our interview with Abby
Wambach and Glennon Doyle to people that we admire so much,
and this is a rare interview because they are together,
and in part two we'll be talking about parenting, pay equity,
and so much more. If you didn't tune into part one,
(02:06):
you'll definitely want to go back and hear that one too.
Speaking of parenting, Sam, we usually talk every day, but
you were off the grid this weekend? How how was
it okay? So there are lots of ups and downs,
as there always are, right. I always say, the more
kids you have, the more you know. There's always someone
sad or someone sick, there's always a problem. But I
will say that I I think I belonged like when
(02:29):
people had kids together in like communes, because we spent
the week with my brother's family, and it was so
much fun and it was so much easier to parent
with more adults in the house, like between us, we
had four adults and five kids, and we it was
just so much more relaxed and so much more fun.
And you know, we were homeschooling all the kids, so
I'm not homeschooling, but they were zoom schooling. And then
(02:50):
we were each working, all four of us were working.
But somehow it just ran a little bit smoother, and
it was just like the lows were a lot less low.
It was just so much easier. However, were we punctuated
the trip at the end yesterday with an eleven hour
road trip home. It was supposed to take seven hours
and it was eleven hours. And as you know, Amy,
(03:11):
we have a nose screened in the car rule, which
is a little harder to enforce when you have two
kids with phones at this point, but we did it.
I went on social media and nath people for podcast recommendations,
and by our five my ten year old son starts screaming, going,
I am not forty years old. I don't want to
(03:32):
listen to this many hours of podcast. Oh my god, Sam,
So I love you. And I listened to probably of
your advice about parenting because you've been in this game
longer than I have. My kids are one to six.
Now I have to remember I have four kids. There's
too many, and they all just had birthdays. But nonetheless,
again I listened to like your advice about parenting, but
(03:55):
I will never listen to your no screen time rule.
We drive like thirty minutes and I'm like fire up
in minivan video. I had to say, you can't go
backwards on this rule, but you can't go forward. So like,
I don't think you could instill the rule now that
you haven't started it. But we never had screens in
the car, so it's kind of like my kids are
a little bit used to it. I mean, we definitely
(04:15):
tested the boundaries of it yesterday, and there are certainly
a lot of fighting in the car, which was you know,
interrupted by like stops for crappuccinos and things like that.
But it was a long day. Yeah, a long day.
That sounds like a long day. UM. I don't envy
that drive, but I do envy the trip. I'm glad
you got to go away. You know, this this season
(04:36):
for me has been hard to say the least. But
you know, with so many little kids and COVID like,
they're not going to mask up, so we can't really
go anywhere. We can't get on a plane. UM. So
what we do is to follow public health advice, we
spend a lot of time outside, very socially distanced from
other people. In this weekend, we did three different outside adventures.
We did two lakes where they went swimming. The first
(04:58):
time I didn't realize it was a swimming so my
kids just all got naked into their undies and swam
best most responsible mother. Um. And then the other time
we just we went to a beach that was amazing
here in Washington. And the good thing about my kids
because they wake up at the break of dawn. As
you know, I have at least one of my four
children up by five am every day. Is that we
(05:19):
were out the door by seven am, and so we
were done with the beach by ten when people started
to come. So it was very good. But I do
hear you on the communal parenting thing. It's something I
think about a lot. Uh As you know, I grew
up in Ohio, and my mother and father are from Columbus,
where I grew up. They went to my high school
up Burlington High School. Shout out to the Golden Bears.
(05:41):
But you know, I grew up with all with three
of my grandparents, and I grew up with My mom
has five siblings, my dad has two, and I grew
up with all of them and all my cousins, and
both my parents worked and they spent a lot of
time with me and my sister, but they both did
work and they had big jobs that they really loved,
which I knew. And I spent so much time just
around the rest of my family, my aunts, my uncles,
(06:03):
and my cousins, and it was so normal and I
loved it. And it's hard because I think my kids
won't have that. My sister lives in San Francisco, my
parents are still in Ohio, and I wonder how different
their childhood will be because of that. I mean, the
one thing aim is that they have each other. I mean,
having four kids, it's kind of like you have this
built in community, which is awesome. So it's interesting because
(06:23):
it was just you and your sister, and I think
it's so different when there's four of you. It's kind
of like you you always have a pal. Yeah, they're
like a little pack, especially during this time of COVID
when they see no other human beings. But parenting, I
think it's really amazing to hear how other parents do it.
And I love the stories that Glennon and Abbey tell
(06:44):
because you have this situation where you have a modern family,
right dealing with Glennon and Abbey. Abbey's a stepmom and
you know they're Glennon's ex husband is really involved. And
so I'm so excited to share this episode and dive
right into parenting with Abby won Back and Glennon Doyle.
You are raising a son, but you're also raising two girls.
(07:06):
I have four girls, which is so many girls, and
Sam has two greats and also a son. But when
you think about this, like how do you approach raising
daughters in this world? Where the system is set up
not for them. And granted, all of our children are
white and our sign well, yes, ours are brown Japanese
(07:27):
has Japanese. We have too that I feel like our
white passing and one that's not even close to white
passing and is has grown up as the only kid
of color in his schools. So it's interesting, it's not um,
it's a little different. Yeah, And to be clear, we
have one boy and two girls until they tell us otherwise.
I think that that's important thing to start off with.
(07:51):
And Glenn and you know, we've talked about this a lot,
and I'll let you tell the story about because when
you were pregnant with the girls, you know, you were like,
you're badass and you can do anything. You know, like
you have been whispering in the girl's ears that they
can be anything and fighting against the standardized ideas of
(08:11):
what it means to be a little girl in this world.
Glennan has been whispering and them and in their ears
all the opposition to that, like you can be brave,
you can be loud, you can tell you know. And
then we ask ourselves sometimes like are we whispering into
the ear of our son I have the exact same
as I have two girls. I was obsessed with raising
(08:32):
confident girls. They're never gonna worry about food and bodies
and all that stuff. And then I have a son
who's very sensitive and I've never ever thought about the messages.
I mean, he at one point said to me, we
don't hate all white men, do we, And like he's
going to grow up to be a white man, Like
he's so ultra feminist and he's been raised this way.
But there's also I totally get it, so so to
(08:55):
solve it, yeah, I don't know. I feel like, Um,
what I know is that even though even though to
consent point year zero, one person and thing goes to women,
even though I know, as a person who suffered from
eating disorders from all of it, what kind of battle
(09:18):
we're up against in a patriarchy. I wouldn't trade places
with a man for all the money in the world.
I feel like men in our culture are so screwed
right now. And you know, in writing Untamed, um, something
has happened since marrying a woman, which is in the
dynamics between me and men have changed, Okay, Like men
(09:38):
will actually talk to me now, and like reveal themselves
to me in ways that they wouldn't before. And I
don't know if it's because the the weird, like, oh god,
are we allowed to talk? Are we like being sexy?
Are we being too pull? Like? All that's gone because
they're like, oh cool, she's gay, Like she's you know,
we can be human beings together. Um. But I think
that boys are super super tamped. I think that I
(10:00):
was a third great teacher, and I know what it
is to see a little boy actually be human on
a playground and start crying. And I know what kind
of tribal tribal shaming happens in the immediacy of that. Um.
I know that I truly believe that like, one of
the reasons our planet is about to blow up is
because of toxic masculinity. Right is because men have been
(10:22):
given the power but given no permission to be human.
Right They that all of the characteristics that are necessary
for good leadership, which is like empathy and compassion and
mercy and vulnerability and um listening, um, have been assigned
feminine and so they've been shamed out of men and
(10:44):
dismissed in women. Right And so um, you know, I
think that this undoing of toxic masculinity is the best
thing we can do to save our boys and our girls.
There's nothing that breaks my heart more than hearing some one.
You know, you'll be at Disneyland or a public space
and you hear someone saying, man up, come on, you
(11:05):
know you're fine, and it just breaks your heart. It's
just it's so, it's just the perpose. We have to
start making those sayings a thing of the past, right.
I mean, I'm listening to some old school books on
tape and some of the language that they use so
racist and so sexist, and I'm just like, oh my gosh.
(11:27):
But like that is a part of what makes not
just our country, but our world so beautiful, is that
we are we are a part of the progress if
we want to be right. So when people say something
like they are not girl push ups, okay, they are
assisted push ups. And when you run like a girl,
(11:50):
right if you are a girl, you say, damn right,
I run like a girl. I throw like a girl too.
You want to you want me to show you? You know,
we have to be careful of the things that we say,
and we also have to monitor the things that we
let ourselves listen to, and we let our kids listen
to because they believe it. Eventually, if we don't say something,
(12:11):
they're gonna believe it and we're just gonna start over. Man,
I think every time I see a T shirt that
says girls can do anything, I'm like, oh god, I
feel the same way. The little girl didn't think. They
couldn't even know that. Hopefore are you idiots like power?
It's like yeah, everything like we are. We have to
(12:31):
be creative instead of reactive. Like every time we're building
something new, we need to be showing the way it
could be. Yes, and we do it to ourselves as
we as we become adult women too. Right, there are
so many phrases around women bosses like the lady like
I'm just a boss. I am a boss of a
big company. That is all. Like if it's just like,
(12:53):
but you have to just stop. You have to stop
all And we talk for a second about girls and
and and boys. Just in sports. Because I was a
former college Division one athlete, I was raised to just
play sports every single day of my childhood. I was
(13:15):
very pressured by a mother who was obsessed with me winning,
and as a reaction to that, I've put zero pressure
on my kids and we'll likely have no college athletes
in my home. So I feel like there's happy There
has to be a happy medium somewhere. So where is
that happy medium if you don't have an abbey in
your life? Who's saying, Tish, we're trying out for traveling
(13:36):
soccer even though you've never kicked a soccer book. Yeah,
I mean I think that we let the kids dictate
what they want to do. Um, you know, Tish, she
was an abbot, she is an avid soccer player, but
recently she's just picked up a guitar and is teaching
herself how to do that, teaching herself how to play
the piano, like writing songs, getting into music. Um, And
(13:58):
as your kids get older, you just have to offer
them different opportunities and different experiences so that they can
make the decision themselves. Like, of course, you know Craig
and myself that Craig played college soccer Division one. I
played soccer, obviously, Like it would be awesome for our
kids to play soccer because we know it. But I
(14:19):
don't care if they play soccer beyond high school or
if they keep playing for I don't want them to
do it for me quite frankly, like watching kids soccer
on the sidelines at their age is horrible. It's horrible.
It's terrible soccer back in and the balls ever inbounds,
(14:40):
and the kids think that they're Alex Morrigan. And I'm like, actually,
you're terrible at soccer the parents, and the parents think
that they're their kid on the field is Alex Morgan.
I'm like, my goodness. But here's the thing. The reason
why we have our kids in sports isn't because I
want them to play Division one soccer or I want
them to be a part of Division one athletics. That
(15:02):
would be awesome. I had a great experience, but I
also know that sports is one of the things in
my life that taught me humility, that taught me about leadership,
that taught me about collectively working through problems and solving problems, UM,
dealing with many different personalities in a in a space
that is sometimes too close UM and to help me
(15:26):
should have been trying to tackle. I mean, all of
us have this common goal, right, and how do you
get your team from here where you are to where
you ought to be and hopefully in line with reaching
some of those those common goals. Like all of that
stuff is life stuff, right, and and stuff that is
super um for me that will just benefit them for
(15:50):
the rest of their lives. So I don't care if
they played you one soccer or or not. Yeah, and
two things. First of all, what you're talking about is
this pendulum parenting idea, right that we like our parents
did one thing and we didn't dig it, so then
we go way to the other side and screw them
up equally just the other way, right, Like, like I
grew up in a family that I didn't feel like
(16:11):
would let me express my feelings. Okay, so my children
sometimes on like the third hour of tissue telling me
how she feels. I just want to say, you know what,
I steered you wrong? Like I should have taught you
the beauty of suffering silently right, like buttercut, just I
did you wrong. So like, the pendulum parenting is just
(16:34):
a thing. But like I think what you're talking about
could be any parent and child where the parent has
some kind of dream or expectation for the kid that
becomes their own thing and it's not even about the
kid anymore, which I find to be one of the
most detrimental things in a parent child relationship, ever, which
is not like good and bad. It's not evil, it
(16:56):
can it can feel like love when you're a parent, Right,
Like one time Tish came home and said, Mommy, Chase
wants me to be in these clubs in high school
and I don't want to be in these clubs. And
I was like, okay, so what's the problem. Just don't
be in the clubs and she said, well, I just
don't want to disappoint him. And it was like this
really important moment with Tish, and I said, listen, child, like,
(17:19):
your job for your entire life is to disappoint as
many people as you have to to make sure that
you do not disappoint yourself, right, And she said even you,
And I said, es especially neat, because how many people
do you know who are out there defying expectations, who
(17:39):
are being the badass, is living untamed, doing their thing.
But at the end of the day, their parents can
have been dead for twenty years and they're still living
every single day to earn a mommy or daddy's approval. Right.
The Hartist expectation to break is that one that has
planted us as in children, what do my parents expected
me and all of my success, it's been some whether
(18:00):
or not I'm measuring up not to my own ideals
and dreams and expectations, but to theirs. One of the
most beautiful parts of your book is just the expectations
of society that women are so stuck in and how
to break through that and how how dangerous it is.
I just I think that's so powerful for so many people.
(18:21):
And something that Abby advice that you give or you
talk about in the kids play Sports that I've read
is you asked them did you have fun? Did you
try your hardest? And when I read that, I love,
by the way, and I love watching you play, which
is that's amazing, you know what I thought? And did
you learn anything? And I love watching you play. When
(18:41):
I read that, I thought to myself about my own
childhood and playing sports because I was a swimmer and
a water problo player, and I thought about how much
fun it was. And then I thought to myself, I
should ask those questions of myself as a grown up
woman living my life. Oh that's good, Oh, and love that.
That's good. We all write like you know, I was
(19:01):
a lawyer and I left and started the company, and
I have so much more fun. I try my best,
I don't always win, I lose a lot, but like
it's much more fun. And those are the things I
think should dictate our grown up lives. And you know what.
The other thing you do ask sometimes, which I love,
is we'll get in the car and she'll go, so,
how do you think you did that at the end,
because we've learned sometimes they were the worst players on
(19:25):
the field, and we're like, oh god, they're gonna cry
there this they should cry. And they get in the
car and they're like, I feel I don't think I
was awesome. And we're like, oh glad we didn't say
anything first. And I'm like, so like letting them dictate
their own experience, their own fun, and even their own performance.
(19:47):
But we I know we only have you for another
few minutes, and we want to finish with three questions.
The first question is what would you say to the
women out there who are feeling stuck, whether it be
in a relationship or a rut, or a career or something.
Their life just feels like it's paused. Oh, I mean,
(20:11):
you just got to begin somewhere. I have had what
we call rock bottoms, bathroom floor, being on the bathroom
floor moments both of us and I've had a few
of them in my life. Um, and you have to
surround yourself with people you trust, you know, I mean
(20:32):
the thing that I learned playing on the national team
and the thing that I missed the most. It's not playing.
It's not the championships, it's nothing like that. It's the
idea of being around other badass, like minded people that
sometimes have to hold you up when you feel low,
when you feel down, when you've fallen in your your
hit your rock bottom. So for me, it's surround yourself
(20:54):
with good people. And I would say on it your discontent.
Women are taught to bury our discontent, that that if
we are longing for more, that it's a sign that
we're not grateful enough. Instead of just assuming that it's
if you can imagine more, it's likely a sign that
you were made for more. So honor the discontent, stay
in the distance, kind, ignite your imagination right down. What
(21:14):
is the truth if you're if you're discontent with your career,
what is the truth most beautiful career you can imagine? Right?
I love that if you can imagine more it's likely
a sign that you were made from our right. Okay,
next question. If you could wave a magic wand and
change one thing, what would you change about the world
your kids are growing up in that there was more
(21:37):
female leadership? M hm. I would start over in a
country that was not based on a cast system, that
was not based on genocide, and I just would start over.
I think racial inequalities just couldn't take hundreds of years
(21:58):
to get out of. Who do you think the three
next guests on our show should be? Have you had
Brittany path New yet? No, we've only had you. Oh yeah,
say that. I would have love E G I E
I would have I would have some of the defending
investors for the New Angel City s team that you're
(22:22):
we're founding investors on. I think that um Julie Erman
or Natalie Portman or Alexis Honey, and I think that
m Serena those folks who are trying to build their
own house as it relates to an industry that's been
pretty much dominated by men and white men specifically, that's good.
(22:43):
That's good. What about Dr Yabba Black? If you could
have Dr Blay and Toronto bark On together, those two.
Oh my god, great, there's just that's awesome. All right, Lou,
we want to bring you in for your final question.
Are you there? Yes, I'm here. So I've been incredibly
impacted for the past few weeks by by salmon amy
(23:06):
and now by YouTube, and it's and I feel more sensitive.
I feel like my walls are being torn down. I
feel like I'm I'm like the world is really opening
up to me, Like my life is literally about to
take off into another dimension of existence and reality and
it is amazing. And I used to be a real macho, macho, arrogant,
cocky person, you know. And so so for all the
(23:29):
men out there that that will be eventually listening to this,
that will start to be impacted, Um, do you have
a message for them, like maybe the even the men
who have the the ability to make change, so that
so that you all Cannet be like, yes, it's working.
You can start to see progression towards towards women, you know,
(23:50):
do you have anything that like a message you would
tell them? Yeah? I feel like, um, there there's all
these feminist women who are working till undo these ideas
and fight for equality. And and then what I often
hear from men is like, so where is this for
the men? Like where is this for the men? And
so what I want to say to them is where
is this for the men? Like, you guys gotta get together,
(24:14):
You guys gotta start having groups like women have where
you guys are reclaiming your humanity, you know, where you're
reclaiming vulnerability, where you're reclaiming mercy, where you're talking about
all of these because what happens I've seen so often.
I just saw this thing on Twitter where a man
came out said I just read untamed. Oh my god,
it is like broke my heart wide open. And the
(24:34):
the this tribal shaming that came to him afterwards, like
oh did you did you like walk into the wrong group?
Did you whatever? Like the shaming. We need men who
are gathering around other men and protecting their humanity, right,
who are doing what women are doing with each other,
because we can't do it for you, right. It's like
(24:55):
it reminds me of my when I'm working with other
activist groups who are led by women of color and
they're like, we need you to get your white people,
like we can't do all of this, Like we're over
here doing this. We can work with you after you've
done some work, but we need you to gather each
other and wake each other up, and when you get
to a certain point, we can work together. So that's
what I would say to you, like, start groups, show
(25:16):
up with each other, defend each other's humanity. Like like
it's like it's the world depends on its right. Yeah,
there's no one way liberation. Um. When we talk about feminism,
we're not just talking about freeing and giving women more
rights or more access. We're also telling and saying that
that that the men out there also have been limited
(25:40):
and also have been um kept down. And also because
guess what I mean. Look, being in power is not easy,
right being you lose your humanity, You lose your humanity. Yeah,
so it's a reclaiming of humanity. It's like that quote
that's like, if you've come to me to help me,
you're wasting your time. But if you're coming because your
(26:00):
liberation is tied to mind, let us begin. So that's
how I would say say about men, like, we don't
need men to help us anymore, please Jesus. What we
need is men who are wanting to help themselves, who
are wanting to free themselves from the cages of patriarchy
and then we can work together. It's good. One of
(26:22):
the things Amy that's so critical is that it's not
just women who are feminists, but that it's meant to
write and that part of part of kind of the
New World is going to be having strong women and
sensitive men. So it's not just important to raise strong girls,
but it's also important to raise sensitive boys. And I
(26:44):
love that this interview touched upon that. And I think that,
you know, Glennan and Abbey are such advocates for living full,
rich lives, for following your heart, and for raising really
healthy kids, and I think that they shared so much
of that with us. I couldn't get enough of them. Sam.
I completely agree and I cannot wait until our next
(27:06):
episode where we talk with the legend, the one and
only Arianna Huffington. She is incredible in our conversation, will
wow you Before we go. I want to thank our
amazing team. Thank you, Too Large Media. Find them at
l A r J media dot com. They are a
woman owned and operated podcast company that we love working with.
(27:28):
Thank you also to our podcast associate producer Emma Hard
and our sound engineer Lou Burns and of course I
heart thank you so much, so so so much, and
your time is so valuable. We love you, guys, thank
thank you. To the ending that was amazing. Thank you Bye,
Hosts And Creators
Samantha Ettus
Amy Nelson
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