July 22, 2021 • 40 mins
n this episode we interview Massachusetts Attorney General Maura Healey. The former professional basketball player has become known for her willingness to take on the big fights ranging from the opioid crisis to the Trump administration. Hear how Maura chooses her battles and why she never gives up until she wins.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, I'm Sam Edis and I'm Amy Nelson. Welcome to
What's Her Story? With Sam and Amy. This is a
show about the world's most remarkable women, their professional and
personal journeys. Together, we'll hear from gold medalists, best selling authors,
and leaders of the world's most iconic brands. Today, we're
(00:29):
so excited to welcome Maura Healey to the show. Many
of you know that Mara is the current Attorney General
of the state of Massachusetts. I'm so excited to talk
to her. I feel like Maura is one of those
people that as soon as you meet her, you just
not only fall in love with her, but you're just
so excited that she is out there fighting for justice
(00:49):
and for me. You know, we were athletes at Harvard
at the same time, and we have a lot of
mutual friends. And I was talking to my college roomate
this morning and telling her that we were to be
talking to Maura, and she had so many questions for
me to ask her. And she was telling me about
her basketball career as a pro even before the w
NBA was started. She was a pro basketball player in Europe.
(01:11):
That's not something you hear every day. What does the
attorney general do. I think a lot of our amazing
listeners might not know what an attorney general does. I'm
so glad you asked, and I agree people don't know.
I am, first of all, an attorney. I'm a lawyer.
You have to actually be a lawyer to do this job.
And for me, you know, life started in this profession.
(01:35):
After law school, I clerked for federal judge. I then
went to a big firm where I was really representing
corporations and board members and executives in the leg. I
had a great experience as a business litigator for about
eight or nine years. But something happened one summer and
(01:55):
my dad gets sick from cancer and died quickly. And
I sort of had this realization to that that the
life is short and what do I really want to
do with my my legal career right and what I
had trained for And in the back of my mind,
I think always I wanted to do public interests work,
you know, use my use my law degree to to
(02:16):
be an advocate for people. But you know, you get busy,
and you get on a certain track and and you know,
the hours build and before you know it, you've you've
been doing something for eight or nine years without picking
your head up, and that was sort of a moment.
I think we've all had those moments in our life
where something was was catalytic in terms of a change,
and for me that was that was the change. And
(02:40):
I ended up taking a seventy pay cut, which was
a little scary at the time to go run the
Civil Rights Division, where instead of representing corporations and powerful interests,
I was on the side of bringing civil rights cases,
particularly on half of our people. And in that job,
(03:00):
which was in the Attorney General's office, I saw the
power of that office to help people and it's what
inspired me to run for Attorney general. So my job
day to day is to oversee a law firm of
about six people where we're out there enforcing laws to
fight against environmental pollution, to protect access to healthcare, women's
access to reproductive healthcare, enforce laws that protect workers and consumers,
(03:25):
and really stand up for the rule of law, you know,
in our states and around this country. It's a super
cool job. I love it. I've loved every minute of it.
It's brought me into some big, big battles against some
powerful interests and most fundamentally It's allowed me to have
a job where day in and day out, you get
to try to help the people in your state, whether
(03:47):
it's you know, an issues of substance use disorder and
combating the opioid epidemic by going out from some of
those bad actors, or making sure that people get paid
the wages that they due, or are being victimized human
trafficking or predatory practices and the like. That's the job
of the Attorney generals. In short, we call ourselves the
people's lawyer. Before you became the attorney general, in between,
(04:09):
you know, switching jobs, you had to run for office.
What was that like? You know, it was I never
dine before. So I grew up. I grew up in
New Hampshire. Right when you grew up in New Hampshire.
It's the presidential season every every four years, and as
a kid you're used to politics and seeing candidates come through.
I've never really been involved in campaigns though before my
(04:32):
parents were pretty involved in in local government and the like.
But but I just I wasn't somebody who grew up
wanting to be a politician. But again, I found myself
in this position when I was working in the Attorney
General's office. The seat became open, and I thought that
the Attorney general had a really cool job, and so
I just decided naively that I would quit and run
(04:56):
for office. Now, looking back, I realized how many people
thought I was insane to do that. People were very
nice to me, Like I wasn't the top deputy at
the at the Attorney General's office. Even I had done
some major cases and you know, had established myself with
a bit of a reputation. But it wasn't like I.
(05:16):
Anybody thought I would run for office. And I got in.
I was the first one in. But then a short
while later, a man dut In, who had been a
long time state senator. He was once on the on
a statewide ticket, the Democratic ticket in Massachusetts. He was
(05:38):
well known and respected, and everybody sort of thought the
job was his right. I just happened to get in
the way. But I didn't know anything. I was just
ordering the doubt that I thought I wanted and could
do a good job at And I have to say
I never really doubted that up until about two weeks
before the primary. And in Massachusetts, the Democratic primary really
(06:00):
is the election. Whoever was that is generally gonna win,
or was going to win the election. All the way through,
I had just run all over the state trying to
talk to people, connect with people, raise money. I've never
done that before. I remember my first stump speeches. They
were so super awkward looking back on that, But you
grow and you learn. And I had done everything I
(06:22):
could do right, like everything, and I had this amazing
grassroots team, including a lot of people who I think
I appealed to them because I wasn't from politics, you know,
I wasn't part of the establishment, and and they knew
the fight I would bring. So things were feeling good.
But I remember two weeks out there was a poll
(06:43):
that came out that showed me ten points down, and
I had given a speech that morning at our Chamber
of Commerce, was actually a debate with my opponent. I
thought I did a really great job. I thought I
connected with the audience. I thought that they liked me.
Everything was good. I come down off the days and
I see my my campaign team and they're totally forlorn,
(07:05):
and I'm like, what turned out? The then governor of
Massachusetts was endorsing my opponent. Also the mayor, the then
mayor of the city of Boston was endorsing my opponent,
and they were really crushed by this, coupled with the
bad pole that we had received showing as ten points behind.
This is two weeks out. It was the first time
(07:26):
that I went home that afternoon and I cried. I
remember sitting out on my my debt and I just cried.
And I had to sort of pull myself together because
I had to do a debate that night on TV
Long on the short we won running Away. I won
like seven out of three cities and towns. I don't
(07:48):
think people saw that coming. And again it was a
testament to the wonderful grass streets support I gained. But
it's just to say amy like having been the person
who was told it's not your time, it's not your turn.
In fact, some of my opponent's supporters approached me and said,
you know what, you should drop out and see if
he'll take you on as his chief deputy. So I
(08:11):
can remember that because how many women have been First
of all, you're never asked to run right, Nobody, nobody, Men,
no problem, Just like waking up looking in the mirror
saying I definitely should be president. Women don't have right
We don't have that within us. We're never asked to run.
Nobody asked me to run, and you get a lot
(08:31):
of um nose, subtle or or not so subtle along
the way the way, And so I just encourage women
to just be super tough and just believe in yourself
against you know, all the noise that's out there, and
know that it's possible. I'm an example of that. So
you and I were both college athletes at Harvard together,
(08:51):
and I can't help but think that that and your
days as a professional basketball player in Europe, that there's
some parallels to you having to perform and having to
debate on a day when you're just feeling really crappy,
or having to play an important game when you're not
having a good day. Does it feel like a parallel
to you? I think it's such a good point, Sam.
(09:14):
I'm sitting down, so y'all can't can't see me. Um
five four, So I'm I'm really sure. But I was
a point guard. Point Guards are sort of the quarterback
of the team. They're very bossy and they sort of
run then run the plays in the whole bit. And
because I've brought for that was a good position for me,
I wasn't go to get any taller. I loved basketball
from early on. Athletics were a huge part of my life.
(09:35):
My parents got divorced early on, and I honestly think
I threw myself into school and too sports as a
way to to cope. And unfortunately, you know, I was
able to captain the team at Harvard, That's where I
played college basketball, and then I was able to go
overseas and play professionally for a couple of years before
law school. From sports, I just think you learn, like
(09:55):
you learn what it takes to win. You learn how
to deal with failure, You learn how to deal with
with hard moments like that one that afternoon. You learn
how to compete. And I think, if I look bad, Sam,
I treated my run that election as a season. Every
day I was gonna is practice, right, and you're gonna
have good days and bad days. But every day was
(10:16):
like you were getting after it and hustling and either
reason money, meeting voters, doing debates, whatever, And that mentality
I think helped me. I think for women, you know,
and I've known a number of women in office, it
seems in office or in c suites there are disproportionate
number of women who played athletics, particularly college athletics, And
(10:37):
I think it's tied to sort of the the confidence
that we learn, how to build self esteem, perseverance, teamwork,
um and the like, which you know, in a rough
and tumbral environment, whether it's the boardroom or politics, you
end up being well served. I think by that. So
I'm I'm grateful to to athletics and what it gave me.
(10:59):
Do stell play basketball? I do poorly. Um, So COVID
is tough because because basketball is a team game and
you're with people. And I played in a league after
I got back from Europe for about twenty years with
a group of women. I mean, people go on, married, kids,
we all get older, but we'd still come together to play.
(11:23):
COVID stopped that, and so a couple of months ago
I felt comfortable and I reached out to one of
my friends and we said, let's let's get the girls
out again. So we started playing. We meet up, you know,
at a at a playground and play pick up and
it was great, terrible on my achilles, Like it's different,
you know, fifty is different from forty is different from
(11:44):
alty and in the Achilles is where I felt it first.
But after a lot of phone rolling, I have to say,
you know, we're it's all said. I'm also playing more tennis.
I've I've gotten back to playing tennis, which is the
sport I've always loved. And now for a quick break.
So you're the first openly gay attorney general. I read
(12:04):
somewhere that you even chose Northeastern Law School because you
heard it was a place that was welcoming and and
a place that was good to come out. Is that true? Yeah,
you know, I did not come out until after college.
I actually I think I had to go three thousand
miles away to Europe to play to figure that out.
I returned from Europe, I'm looking to go to law school.
I had a wonderful experience at Harvard, my undergrad experience. However,
(12:28):
I happened to meet a friend who was at Northeaster
and she happened to be gay, and it just seemed
to be a really comfortable environment. It also was a
school that was very focused on public interest, layering social justice.
It had an experiential learning component to it, and you know,
it drew me in and I had had a great
(12:49):
experience Remember this is this is the mid nineties, right,
I mean, this is a different time, and so finding
an environment like that was really important because things were
things are still challenging today, and my heart goes out
particularly to to our young people, members of our trans community.
(13:11):
There's still a lot of struggles within the LGBTQ community, well,
even the term openly gay, right, Like you hope that
that word openly is eventually dropped from that. That's what
strikes me. It's such a bizarre term. It will I know,
I guess it speaks to there may have been gay
people in any number of positions as a g s,
(13:31):
as governors, as secretaries of president, who knows, right, because
people were closeted at different times in history, but it's
not that way now. I'm proud to have been the first.
I'm prouder that I'm not the last. There are actually
two others in our community, uh, one from New Jersey
and one from Michigan who have joined us. And you know,
seeing is believing, whether you're talking about representation among the
(13:56):
LGBTQ community, among communities of color, gender diversity matters, Seen
is believing, And so I I had to tell you this.
I was kind of funny, Like when I ran here
in Massachusetts, it was not even discussed. I didn't know
if it was because Massachusetts, you know, we lead on
marriage equality and you know, certain things were established here
(14:18):
in the state when I was running in But the
only thing that that stood out to people was the
fact that I was a pro basketball player, Like that
was like this, not that I would be the first
day attorney general that did. After I won the election,
there were all these international headlines about my my win
because I recognized that it was the historic in the
(14:38):
sense that I was the first ever, but it was
just sort of funny because it was like that had
never been the thing before, which is great. I also,
you know, will say and I struggled with this sum
because I don't know, let me let me say it
this way. One thing that I did come to appreciate
later was the fact that there were at various times
(15:02):
young people or parents others who would come up to
me and say, we're really glad you're in this role,
Like you gave me hope. You give me hope for
my son or daughter that they could be all that
they want to be, and that there are opportunities there
for them. And you know that's why I'm such a
big believer in in supporting those who have been marginalized
(15:24):
for so long. Not only is it the right thing
to do, will have better policies and representation, it also
sends the message and inspires others from those communities to
be all they can be. Right, you have to make
really hard decisions every day about what to pursue as
attorney general, who to go after, what injustices to try
(15:46):
to solve for, what investigations to carry on. How do
you do that. I have a great team, and I
listened to them, and I listened to the people of
the state. I mean, the reason that I was the
first a g to sue the Sackler family and and
Perdue for their role in the opening crisis is because
traveling the state, I heard from so many people, grandparents
(16:08):
raising grandkids, parents who lost their sons or daughters to
to this disease that I knew we had to do something,
and we had to take on this powerful interest and
we had to name names, including naming the Sackler family members.
I knew from listening to my team about what was
happening on climate change and where we needed to go
(16:29):
not only as a state, but as a country that
we had to sue Exson, and my office has been
in a lawsuit against Exxon. They continue to try to
throw us out of court. We continued to win, and
we're going forward with our case. But I knew that
was important because we had to tell the story of
the fossil fuel industry what had happened, so that the
right measures can be taken on gun violence. You know,
(16:52):
when I listened to the moms who have lost their
kids to gun violence in our streets, in our communities.
You know when I talked to two family members who've
lost loved ones, whether they're in perkmand Florida or Colorado
or now name a location, right, look at how many
mass shootings we've had. You know, how can you not
(17:13):
use your authority in your powers, Attorney General, but to
act and take on the powerful interests. I always do
the jobbing me as we've got to provide bread and
butter work to constituents, you know, and we've got to
make sure that we protect consumers and workers and we
stand up for civil rights. We've got to be able
to take on the powerful interest to And so that
set me against Purdue an excellent in the n r A,
(17:35):
and also for the last four and a half years,
set me against the former president and we took him
to court hundreds of times successfully just to hold onto
the rule of law and try to preserve some basic
democratic norms. And how about the issues that you cared about?
But we're left on the cutting room floor just because
of bandwidth or time. It's a great question, Sam, There's
(17:58):
always more you can do. Certainly, having to deal with
the former president who did so many things that were
illegal and unconstitutional, did take considerable time. But you know,
if we weren't there, we would not have preserved the
Affordable Care Act, we would not have preserved data and
the program for Dreamers, we would not have successfully fought
(18:20):
efforts to mess around with the census. Um. You could
just go through the list of things that Donald Trump did.
We had to be there, But I can tell you
that my team was ready for that and was able
to do the the other work alongside. An area though,
I'd have to say, where I am acutely focused now
(18:41):
is on equity and racial justice. I mean I started,
I said, I started my job in the Attorney General's
Office as civil rights chief. And one of the things
I think we're experiencing in this moment two pandemics, COVID
all that that's revealed about the fragilities and our health
care system, our supply chain, who we think of an
essential worker, how we think about work now. We also
(19:03):
saw racial disparities right exposed and exacerbated there and right
alongside that George Floyd's murder. My colleague Keith Ellison and
his team did a wonderful job of prosecuting Derek Schougin.
But this moment of racial reckoning that we're in grappling
with four years of systemic racism, you know, this to
(19:26):
me is the work we need to do. And so
there's an equity lens that I'm applying to everything that
our office does and certainly would like to have done
more already than than we have done on this. So
what are some concrete things that the office is doing
to focus on equity. We take the view that you've
got to understand that racial disparities exists across every realm
(19:50):
of society employment, education, healthcare, transportation, housing, and yes, criminal justice.
I think we get a lot to focus discussion on
criminal justice, but understand and I say this as a prosecutor.
There are all sorts of reasons why people come into
the criminal justice system. Dealing with some of those root issues,
(20:13):
you know, what is happening with early education and childcare,
access to jobs, access to education, food security, housing insecurity.
If we only focus on criminal justice, which is absolutely important,
and I have been a leading reformer here in our
state on calls for policing reform and criminal justice reform.
(20:33):
But if we only focus on that, we miss, we
really miss the opportunity that we need to seize as
a country to make things better for all. So what
are we doing? For example, recently we put out a
report on health care disparities, racial disparities and healthcare, identifying
concrete things we can and need to do better collection
(20:53):
of data, diversifying our healthcare workforce so there's more cultural
competencies in the care of that that's given and and received.
On our environment, we're focusing on our environmental justice communities,
going after pollution in those areas that disproportionately affects people
of color. I could go on and on through the list.
(21:17):
Are focused on the consumer fund, you know, going after
predatory lenders or debt collectors that disproportionately target people of color,
it's got to be You know, equity is hard, right,
I mean, equity is hard, and it requires an intentionality
day after day after day. It also requires the ability
(21:39):
to have hard conversations. But if you're gonna get real
about race, like, you need to be able to have
hard conversations, difficult conversations and work through that. And it's
something that I guess I try to model as a
as a leader, as as an elected and something that
our office is is trying to do. How do you
(21:59):
handle complat in your own personal life, Like when you
decide to confront a family member or friend about something
that's hurt you, because I imagine if you're fighting for
justice every day in your professional life, you might be
just too exhausted to argue about something in your personal life. Well,
I would say that, you know, we all have personal conflict,
(22:20):
right with our partners, with our friends, with their siblings, family.
You know, it's something that I welcome advice from anyone
on how to have difficult conversations, particularly with those with
whom you're close, right, But for me, it's it's it's
better to talk. I think I found it better to
try to communicate. I think as a leader, I've learned
(22:41):
a lot about empathy, um and the need to listen,
which you know as a lawyer, as a politician, may
not come naturally at first to some like you know,
because you always want to talk, you always want to
make a point, you always want to say something. What
I've learned is the power of listening. And you listened
(23:02):
to someone's experience, you have an opportunity to register and
sort of to validate that right through empathy. And then
you may not end up seeing eye to eye on something,
or sometimes when it comes to my my work, I
may not even be able to help that person. But
we walk away from it and they walk away from
(23:23):
it feeling heard and feeling seen. And I think that's
to me, that's a big part of what's happening in
society and why things are not where they need to be.
There aren't enough people who feel seen, who feel heard,
and we need to work to change that, and we
change that through through empathy and understanding, which it is
(23:46):
constant work in progress for me to be there to
to just pause, listen here that person right, make sure
not just like listen and I heard them, but like
here that person trying to nderstand where they're coming from.
I found this to be the case too when it
comes to issues of police reform and criminal justice reform.
(24:06):
There's so much more commonality out there than the current
you know, media In some ways coverage of this suggests
and I understand that, I divisiveness drives attention, right, I mean,
we all prefer to look at a car crash than
than than are pretty painting. Isn't that sick? But studies
(24:26):
show that that's what people turn towards. So it's it's
a little bit like, how do you how do you
protect yourself and and fight and resist that that effort
to turn towards the car crash rather than focusing on
something you know, positive and uplifting and constructive. You were
on top of the opioid crisis from very early on.
You were a little bit like a lone ranger against
(24:48):
the Sackler family and the crisis. And for anyone not
familiar with the Sackler story, I happened to be in
the middle of reading Empire of Pain, and I highly
recommend it. It's really an incredible story and you have
a huge role in it. Can you tell everyone not
as familiar with the crisis and the saga, what you've
been through and a little bit about it. Yeah, I
(25:09):
think this has been a matter where i've really probably
the thing I've been most focused on is Attorney General
over the last seven years. So there's a company called
Perdue Pharma. It made OxyContin. Oxy came to market in
the late nineties. What we learned is that over time Perdue,
which was run by this very powerful Sackler family, there
(25:32):
were no public shareholders of this company was all held
by this family that over time they engaged in really
deceptive marketing and sales techniques. When they brought oxy to market,
they lied about it's addictive nature, they lied about its efficacy.
(25:54):
They told doctors and others that it was basically no
more harmful than aspirin or advil, and they then worked
the system, worked Congress, worked the f d A to
to basically get it set up so that they were
in a position to sell as much Oxy to as
(26:15):
many people as possible at as HIGHAH dose as possible.
The Sacla family also was the family that brought Valium
to the market years ago. Their forbear was the person
who was a doctor but actually pioneered the marketing of medication, right,
and this, I think story is about profits over people.
(26:36):
It's the most egregious example of corporate greeting I've ever seen.
And what happened over time is that as doctors got
marketed to by sales reps, the prescriptions went up, and
so did overdoses. The stories that were so common student
athletes who got injured, prescribed oxy and and addicted for life,
(27:01):
overdosing ultimately dying. I mean, I can just go on
and on. So many people who who found themselves because again,
these were pills that you get prescribed by a doctor,
you pick up at a pharmacist. So so many people
unknowingly found themselves addicted. I lost a family member in
the sixth Act way. I'm so sorry, Amy, And honestly,
it's hard to find somebody in this country who doesn't
(27:27):
know someone directly, if not hasn't lost somebody in their family.
And so my heart goes out to you and to
your family members. And it's because of stories like that
and yours that I said about an investigation in March.
You see, Perdue made a deal they got in trouble
mac in two thousand seven in the department that Justice
had had caught up to them, and Justice struck a
(27:49):
deal with them, and PERTY paid a big fine and
a couple of executives put guilty. But guess what, they
went ahead and they doubled down on their bad behavior,
and over the next ten years they sold you more
and more of this toxic stuff, and more and more
people died, and it reached crisis epidemic proportions. So that's
what I was inheriting as Attorney General, and that's what
(28:11):
led me to open the case. I also thought, you know,
as I as I mentioned in private practice, I used
to represent that businesses and corporations, I also used to
represent executives and board members. Corporations don't just run themselves.
And to me, with Justice having given a pass to
the executives in the past, we needed to name names
(28:34):
and bring the accountability. And I think that's one thing
that I'm very proud that my team in Massachusetts AG's
Office did. We did an extension of investigation. We were
the first to name and tell the whole story of
what the sack of family members did, and that was
followed by member of thousands of other lawsuits. We recently
reached a resolution because Perdue was driven into bankruptcy for
(28:57):
the first time ever. The Sacklers, who spent a lifetime
hiding behind nondisclosure agreements confidentiality agreements, are going to have
to produce every single email memo associated with this company,
including attorney, clients, privileged documents. It's gonna be like thirty
million documents. And you mentioned Empire pain Patrick Radcus book
(29:20):
is an incredible book. He's an incredible writer and researcher.
He tells the story of what happened here. And now
we're going to have thirty million documents, many most of
which have never been seen before. I hope that they
will inform public health experts roying Ford. I hope that
they will get Congress and the Department of Justice to
act to close loopholes, to use resources to go after
(29:43):
corporate bad actors more effectively so this never happens again.
And we're also bringing back over four billion dollars in
relief that you know in Massachusetts is going to go
directly for treatment and and care for individuals well. And
now quick break, you know you talk about with the
Sackler family and with Big Pharma. One thing aside from
(30:06):
these legal settlements, which I mean, that's thank you for
doing that work. Somebody needed to and it will change things.
But on a systemic level, we need the legislature to
change things. Are you ever going to be on that
side of things? I hear you're going to run for governor. Well,
I don't know what what I'm gonna do. I am up.
You know it's funny you have these jobs with my job.
(30:27):
The term ends in two so I'm taking this summer
to think about it and think about whether it's this
position or or another position. I want to be in
a position to make a difference, to make a contribution.
I've loved public service, and I'm just going to take
this time to to to reflect on that and I'll
make a decision. I certainly, though, will continue to be
(30:50):
in whatever realm, a strong advocate for behavioral health resources
and resources for substance used to sort. I mean, this
is such an un at need in our country. I
can't think of a family that isn't needing some form
of behavioral health services, right, whether for a kid or
a parent or a grandparent. I mean, you just think
(31:13):
about the the isolation, the anxiety this year, the depression.
You think about trauma, and whether it's by by gun
violence or domestic violence or you know, I work with
a lot of immigrant communities that traumas they've experienced. We
just have a huge need in our country, and certainly,
you know, we don't have the resources in place. I've
(31:35):
flat for a long time. We need like a full
out Peace Corps style effort on recruiting people into behavioral health.
Part of it is that behavioral health just didn't pay
as well, right, I mean, it's really hard to get
insurance coverage for behavioral health. It's hard to find providers.
You know, I talked to so many families here the
(31:55):
way times, even in Massachusetts where we have like some
terrific health care provide ers in health care, right, we
were the first state to pioneer universal health care. You
have wreak times six months. That's just like devastating in
the life of a child. So, I mean, I'm going
to continue to advocate for funding on the state level,
on the federal level on true parity when it comes
(32:18):
to mental health. And I think we still have work
to do on addressing issues of stigma, right. I think
that's one thing that that helped her do when the
Sacklers keep everybody in the dark, people who are afraid
to come forward and tell their stories. Hopefully we've we've
really cracked that open, but I know we have more
work to do there. Speaking of domestic violence, there are
(32:38):
not many attorneys general who you can work alongside with
on many issues and see eye to eye with. So
I'm certain it was a huge surprise to you when
someone you worked so closely with on a lot of
issues affecting women, Attorney General Eric Schneiderman, turned out to
be a predator. What was that like for you? I
think that was a really hard, hard news, hard bit
(33:01):
of news for for all of us in the attorney
general ranks. You know, we know each other professionally, we
don't always know each other personally. And Attorney General Schneiderman
as Attorney General was was a strong proponent of of
women's rights and women's access to reproductive health care and
so many causes. So it was it was really devastating
(33:24):
and and and shocking. I've had the privilege of working
with with Tiss James, who's the New York Attorney General,
and you know, we continue to work closely with New
York and continue to work closely with colleagues um on
both sides of the aisles as best we can, but
you know, you never really understand or no anybody's individual circumstance. Studio,
(33:48):
we had Tanya Selveratnam, one of Eric Standerman's ex girlfriends,
who is an incredible woman, went to Harvard, brilliant, talented,
and she got caught in a relationship with him, and
she'd never have been a victim before and wrote a
book about her experience. But it's one of those things
where you can think you know someone and you don't
necessarily know what they're like behind closed doors, that's right,
(34:11):
and on that and on that, you know, I think
about her as a survivor. I think about other survivors.
It's it's just the courage that it takes for them
to tell their stories and to speak up against abuse.
You know, I just have been so in awe of
(34:31):
and admiring the women, though not all women, certainly there
are men who have been victims of sexual violence as well,
but but the survivors who had the courage to tell
their story, and you know, that's important for accountability. It's
also important for like a reset and culture, isn't it?
Like I think following me to there are certain things,
whether people believe it or not, they're saying the right things,
(34:54):
you know, they're seeing the right things about what's acceptable
what's not acceptable. We need to continue to push for that,
make that and actually make that internalized and real and
genuinely felt everywhere. But I do see a lot of
progress on that front. And again, you know, as somebody
who brings cases on behalf of people, it is the
(35:15):
people who enable us to do our work. It is
the people and their lived experience that allows us to
do our work, and in doing our work, we hopefully
help others. Do you ever worry about safety? Since you're
going up against all of these powerful people all the time,
how did that impact your life? I'm mindful of it.
I mean, if you looked at my social media, I
(35:37):
you know, I get any number of trolls. I've had
death threats. I have a security team that's part of
executive Protection, so they take good care of me, and
we're vigilant. But in this day and age, it's it
is on your mind. I try not to let it
affect what I do, but particularly when it came to
to my enforcement of gun laws. You know, Massachusetts has
(35:58):
gun laws, and one of my jobs as attorney to
almost to make sure we were to enforced gun laws,
including our state's ban on assault weapons. When I did
that and I sent a notice out reminding people that
those were banned, had major protests. I remember driving by
the state House one Saturday and there were people, hundreds
(36:18):
and hundreds of people lined up with posters with my
face on it, with Hitler style mustache and and all
sorts of terrible things sort of said. And it was
very unnerving to see that. Um As I say, I feel,
you know, well protected and taken care of. But I
think anybody in public life these days, I mean, look
(36:41):
at what happened, look at the attacks on our election officials,
Republicans and Democrats who are simply trying to do their job.
That's why I think we need to come together as
a country and just really crack down on certain things.
Like we can disagree about policy, you know, and we
could have differences of opinion, and we can have a
soap all public square and debate that and talk about that.
(37:03):
But you can't threaten people, you know. You can't. You
can't you can't physically hurt people in furtherance, of your agenda,
and you know, unfortunately we're seeing too much of that
these days, but that's just part of the part of
the landscape brand. All right, Maria, we are going to
move over to our lightning round and ask you a
(37:23):
series of really quick questions and you just give us
one word answer, Amy, Why don't you kick us off?
What are you reading? I'm reading this book, miss Iceland.
I just went to Iceland. Fantastic place, highly recommended, and
Iceland has a number of really kick ass authors. What's
your morning routine? Coffee, more coffee, a stretch, and then
(37:47):
I try to have some like healthy shake or something.
Who leaves the starstruck? Oh bro still and most recently
that little girl who won the spelling Bee Championship, world
record holder for dribbling. She's a basketball player. I love her.
He leaves restore strip this week. What do you think
of all the wealthy men going into space? I don't
(38:12):
think I can capture it in one word. I could
talk about our talk with Mara all day long because
there were so many threads I wanted to pull that
we didn't get a chance to go deeper into. I mean,
for me as a lawyer, when I think about Maria's job,
like she has to make all of these incredibly hard
choices about how she best serves the people, because, as
(38:34):
she said, I think a few times, right, she sees
herself as the people's lawyer, like what are the issues
that matter the most? And right, and remember she's been
leading that office or a pandemic which had a ton
of legal consequences too well, and Amy, I feel like
there were a lot of topics that you and I
wanted to cover with her that we didn't even get to. So,
for example, the pandemic we didn't even really touch on.
We didn't touch on prison reform, with which both of
(38:57):
us are so passionate about. And you know, I feel
like what I would love to do is just have
her back when she does run for governor, because you
and I both know she's going to spend this summer
deciding governor. Maybe we'll get out when she's ready. Exactly.
I do think that we'll have her back when she's
running for governor because there's just so much chacter about
and I think that you know, each of her cases
(39:17):
is just so fascinating. And again, Emmy, you must read
this book, Empire of Pain, It's really extraordinary and she's
such a big part of it. I already ordered it.
Good call. Thanks for listening to What's Her Story with
Sam and Amy. We would so appreciate if you would
leave her of you wherever you get your podcasts, and
of course, connect with us on social media at What's
(39:39):
Her Story podcast. What's Her Story with Sam and Amy
is powered by my company, The Riveter at the Riveter
dot c o in Sam's company, park Place Payments at
park place payments dot com. Thanks to our producer Stacy Para,
our social media manager Phoebe crane Fest, and our male
perspective Lou Burns.
Hi, I'm Sam Edis and I'm Amy Nelson. Welcome to
What's Her Story? With Sam and Amy. This is a
show about the world's most remarkable women, their professional and
personal journeys. Together, we'll hear from gold medalists, best selling authors,
and leaders of the world's most iconic brands. Today, we're
(00:29):
so excited to welcome Maura Healey to the show. Many
of you know that Mara is the current Attorney General
of the state of Massachusetts. I'm so excited to talk
to her. I feel like Maura is one of those
people that as soon as you meet her, you just
not only fall in love with her, but you're just
so excited that she is out there fighting for justice
(00:49):
and for me. You know, we were athletes at Harvard
at the same time, and we have a lot of
mutual friends. And I was talking to my college roomate
this morning and telling her that we were to be
talking to Maura, and she had so many questions for
me to ask her. And she was telling me about
her basketball career as a pro even before the w
NBA was started. She was a pro basketball player in Europe.
(01:11):
That's not something you hear every day. What does the
attorney general do. I think a lot of our amazing
listeners might not know what an attorney general does. I'm
so glad you asked, and I agree people don't know.
I am, first of all, an attorney. I'm a lawyer.
You have to actually be a lawyer to do this job.
And for me, you know, life started in this profession.
(01:35):
After law school, I clerked for federal judge. I then
went to a big firm where I was really representing
corporations and board members and executives in the leg. I
had a great experience as a business litigator for about
eight or nine years. But something happened one summer and
(01:55):
my dad gets sick from cancer and died quickly. And
I sort of had this realization to that that the
life is short and what do I really want to
do with my my legal career right and what I
had trained for And in the back of my mind,
I think always I wanted to do public interests work,
you know, use my use my law degree to to
(02:16):
be an advocate for people. But you know, you get busy,
and you get on a certain track and and you know,
the hours build and before you know it, you've you've
been doing something for eight or nine years without picking
your head up, and that was sort of a moment.
I think we've all had those moments in our life
where something was was catalytic in terms of a change,
and for me that was that was the change. And
(02:40):
I ended up taking a seventy pay cut, which was
a little scary at the time to go run the
Civil Rights Division, where instead of representing corporations and powerful interests,
I was on the side of bringing civil rights cases,
particularly on half of our people. And in that job,
(03:00):
which was in the Attorney General's office, I saw the
power of that office to help people and it's what
inspired me to run for Attorney general. So my job
day to day is to oversee a law firm of
about six people where we're out there enforcing laws to
fight against environmental pollution, to protect access to healthcare, women's
access to reproductive healthcare, enforce laws that protect workers and consumers,
(03:25):
and really stand up for the rule of law, you know,
in our states and around this country. It's a super
cool job. I love it. I've loved every minute of it.
It's brought me into some big, big battles against some
powerful interests and most fundamentally It's allowed me to have
a job where day in and day out, you get
to try to help the people in your state, whether
(03:47):
it's you know, an issues of substance use disorder and
combating the opioid epidemic by going out from some of
those bad actors, or making sure that people get paid
the wages that they due, or are being victimized human
trafficking or predatory practices and the like. That's the job
of the Attorney generals. In short, we call ourselves the
people's lawyer. Before you became the attorney general, in between,
(04:09):
you know, switching jobs, you had to run for office.
What was that like? You know, it was I never
dine before. So I grew up. I grew up in
New Hampshire. Right when you grew up in New Hampshire.
It's the presidential season every every four years, and as
a kid you're used to politics and seeing candidates come through.
I've never really been involved in campaigns though before my
(04:32):
parents were pretty involved in in local government and the like.
But but I just I wasn't somebody who grew up
wanting to be a politician. But again, I found myself
in this position when I was working in the Attorney
General's office. The seat became open, and I thought that
the Attorney general had a really cool job, and so
I just decided naively that I would quit and run
(04:56):
for office. Now, looking back, I realized how many people
thought I was insane to do that. People were very
nice to me, Like I wasn't the top deputy at
the at the Attorney General's office. Even I had done
some major cases and you know, had established myself with
a bit of a reputation. But it wasn't like I.
(05:16):
Anybody thought I would run for office. And I got in.
I was the first one in. But then a short
while later, a man dut In, who had been a
long time state senator. He was once on the on
a statewide ticket, the Democratic ticket in Massachusetts. He was
(05:38):
well known and respected, and everybody sort of thought the
job was his right. I just happened to get in
the way. But I didn't know anything. I was just
ordering the doubt that I thought I wanted and could
do a good job at And I have to say
I never really doubted that up until about two weeks
before the primary. And in Massachusetts, the Democratic primary really
(06:00):
is the election. Whoever was that is generally gonna win,
or was going to win the election. All the way through,
I had just run all over the state trying to
talk to people, connect with people, raise money. I've never
done that before. I remember my first stump speeches. They
were so super awkward looking back on that, But you
grow and you learn. And I had done everything I
(06:22):
could do right, like everything, and I had this amazing
grassroots team, including a lot of people who I think
I appealed to them because I wasn't from politics, you know,
I wasn't part of the establishment, and and they knew
the fight I would bring. So things were feeling good.
But I remember two weeks out there was a poll
(06:43):
that came out that showed me ten points down, and
I had given a speech that morning at our Chamber
of Commerce, was actually a debate with my opponent. I
thought I did a really great job. I thought I
connected with the audience. I thought that they liked me.
Everything was good. I come down off the days and
I see my my campaign team and they're totally forlorn,
(07:05):
and I'm like, what turned out? The then governor of
Massachusetts was endorsing my opponent. Also the mayor, the then
mayor of the city of Boston was endorsing my opponent,
and they were really crushed by this, coupled with the
bad pole that we had received showing as ten points behind.
This is two weeks out. It was the first time
(07:26):
that I went home that afternoon and I cried. I
remember sitting out on my my debt and I just cried.
And I had to sort of pull myself together because
I had to do a debate that night on TV
Long on the short we won running Away. I won
like seven out of three cities and towns. I don't
(07:48):
think people saw that coming. And again it was a
testament to the wonderful grass streets support I gained. But
it's just to say amy like having been the person
who was told it's not your time, it's not your turn.
In fact, some of my opponent's supporters approached me and said,
you know what, you should drop out and see if
he'll take you on as his chief deputy. So I
(08:11):
can remember that because how many women have been First
of all, you're never asked to run right, Nobody, nobody, Men,
no problem, Just like waking up looking in the mirror
saying I definitely should be president. Women don't have right
We don't have that within us. We're never asked to run.
Nobody asked me to run, and you get a lot
(08:31):
of um nose, subtle or or not so subtle along
the way the way, And so I just encourage women
to just be super tough and just believe in yourself
against you know, all the noise that's out there, and
know that it's possible. I'm an example of that. So
you and I were both college athletes at Harvard together,
(08:51):
and I can't help but think that that and your
days as a professional basketball player in Europe, that there's
some parallels to you having to perform and having to
debate on a day when you're just feeling really crappy,
or having to play an important game when you're not
having a good day. Does it feel like a parallel
to you? I think it's such a good point, Sam.
(09:14):
I'm sitting down, so y'all can't can't see me. Um
five four, So I'm I'm really sure. But I was
a point guard. Point Guards are sort of the quarterback
of the team. They're very bossy and they sort of
run then run the plays in the whole bit. And
because I've brought for that was a good position for me,
I wasn't go to get any taller. I loved basketball
from early on. Athletics were a huge part of my life.
(09:35):
My parents got divorced early on, and I honestly think
I threw myself into school and too sports as a
way to to cope. And unfortunately, you know, I was
able to captain the team at Harvard, That's where I
played college basketball, and then I was able to go
overseas and play professionally for a couple of years before
law school. From sports, I just think you learn, like
(09:55):
you learn what it takes to win. You learn how
to deal with failure, You learn how to deal with
with hard moments like that one that afternoon. You learn
how to compete. And I think, if I look bad, Sam,
I treated my run that election as a season. Every
day I was gonna is practice, right, and you're gonna
have good days and bad days. But every day was
(10:16):
like you were getting after it and hustling and either
reason money, meeting voters, doing debates, whatever, And that mentality
I think helped me. I think for women, you know,
and I've known a number of women in office, it
seems in office or in c suites there are disproportionate
number of women who played athletics, particularly college athletics, And
(10:37):
I think it's tied to sort of the the confidence
that we learn, how to build self esteem, perseverance, teamwork,
um and the like, which you know, in a rough
and tumbral environment, whether it's the boardroom or politics, you
end up being well served. I think by that. So
I'm I'm grateful to to athletics and what it gave me.
(10:59):
Do stell play basketball? I do poorly. Um, So COVID
is tough because because basketball is a team game and
you're with people. And I played in a league after
I got back from Europe for about twenty years with
a group of women. I mean, people go on, married, kids,
we all get older, but we'd still come together to play.
(11:23):
COVID stopped that, and so a couple of months ago
I felt comfortable and I reached out to one of
my friends and we said, let's let's get the girls
out again. So we started playing. We meet up, you know,
at a at a playground and play pick up and
it was great, terrible on my achilles, Like it's different,
you know, fifty is different from forty is different from
(11:44):
alty and in the Achilles is where I felt it first.
But after a lot of phone rolling, I have to say,
you know, we're it's all said. I'm also playing more tennis.
I've I've gotten back to playing tennis, which is the
sport I've always loved. And now for a quick break.
So you're the first openly gay attorney general. I read
(12:04):
somewhere that you even chose Northeastern Law School because you
heard it was a place that was welcoming and and
a place that was good to come out. Is that true? Yeah,
you know, I did not come out until after college.
I actually I think I had to go three thousand
miles away to Europe to play to figure that out.
I returned from Europe, I'm looking to go to law school.
I had a wonderful experience at Harvard, my undergrad experience. However,
(12:28):
I happened to meet a friend who was at Northeaster
and she happened to be gay, and it just seemed
to be a really comfortable environment. It also was a
school that was very focused on public interest, layering social justice.
It had an experiential learning component to it, and you know,
it drew me in and I had had a great
(12:49):
experience Remember this is this is the mid nineties, right,
I mean, this is a different time, and so finding
an environment like that was really important because things were
things are still challenging today, and my heart goes out
particularly to to our young people, members of our trans community.
(13:11):
There's still a lot of struggles within the LGBTQ community, well,
even the term openly gay, right, Like you hope that
that word openly is eventually dropped from that. That's what
strikes me. It's such a bizarre term. It will I know,
I guess it speaks to there may have been gay
people in any number of positions as a g s,
(13:31):
as governors, as secretaries of president, who knows, right, because
people were closeted at different times in history, but it's
not that way now. I'm proud to have been the first.
I'm prouder that I'm not the last. There are actually
two others in our community, uh, one from New Jersey
and one from Michigan who have joined us. And you know,
seeing is believing, whether you're talking about representation among the
(13:56):
LGBTQ community, among communities of color, gender diversity matters, Seen
is believing, And so I I had to tell you this.
I was kind of funny, Like when I ran here
in Massachusetts, it was not even discussed. I didn't know
if it was because Massachusetts, you know, we lead on
marriage equality and you know, certain things were established here
(14:18):
in the state when I was running in But the
only thing that that stood out to people was the
fact that I was a pro basketball player, Like that
was like this, not that I would be the first
day attorney general that did. After I won the election,
there were all these international headlines about my my win
because I recognized that it was the historic in the
(14:38):
sense that I was the first ever, but it was
just sort of funny because it was like that had
never been the thing before, which is great. I also,
you know, will say and I struggled with this sum
because I don't know, let me let me say it
this way. One thing that I did come to appreciate
later was the fact that there were at various times
(15:02):
young people or parents others who would come up to
me and say, we're really glad you're in this role,
Like you gave me hope. You give me hope for
my son or daughter that they could be all that
they want to be, and that there are opportunities there
for them. And you know that's why I'm such a
big believer in in supporting those who have been marginalized
(15:24):
for so long. Not only is it the right thing
to do, will have better policies and representation, it also
sends the message and inspires others from those communities to
be all they can be. Right, you have to make
really hard decisions every day about what to pursue as
attorney general, who to go after, what injustices to try
(15:46):
to solve for, what investigations to carry on. How do
you do that. I have a great team, and I
listened to them, and I listened to the people of
the state. I mean, the reason that I was the
first a g to sue the Sackler family and and
Perdue for their role in the opening crisis is because
traveling the state, I heard from so many people, grandparents
(16:08):
raising grandkids, parents who lost their sons or daughters to
to this disease that I knew we had to do something,
and we had to take on this powerful interest and
we had to name names, including naming the Sackler family members.
I knew from listening to my team about what was
happening on climate change and where we needed to go
(16:29):
not only as a state, but as a country that
we had to sue Exson, and my office has been
in a lawsuit against Exxon. They continue to try to
throw us out of court. We continued to win, and
we're going forward with our case. But I knew that
was important because we had to tell the story of
the fossil fuel industry what had happened, so that the
right measures can be taken on gun violence. You know,
(16:52):
when I listened to the moms who have lost their
kids to gun violence in our streets, in our communities.
You know when I talked to two family members who've
lost loved ones, whether they're in perkmand Florida or Colorado
or now name a location, right, look at how many
mass shootings we've had. You know, how can you not
(17:13):
use your authority in your powers, Attorney General, but to
act and take on the powerful interests. I always do
the jobbing me as we've got to provide bread and
butter work to constituents, you know, and we've got to
make sure that we protect consumers and workers and we
stand up for civil rights. We've got to be able
to take on the powerful interest to And so that
set me against Purdue an excellent in the n r A,
(17:35):
and also for the last four and a half years,
set me against the former president and we took him
to court hundreds of times successfully just to hold onto
the rule of law and try to preserve some basic
democratic norms. And how about the issues that you cared about?
But we're left on the cutting room floor just because
of bandwidth or time. It's a great question, Sam, There's
(17:58):
always more you can do. Certainly, having to deal with
the former president who did so many things that were
illegal and unconstitutional, did take considerable time. But you know,
if we weren't there, we would not have preserved the
Affordable Care Act, we would not have preserved data and
the program for Dreamers, we would not have successfully fought
(18:20):
efforts to mess around with the census. Um. You could
just go through the list of things that Donald Trump did.
We had to be there, But I can tell you
that my team was ready for that and was able
to do the the other work alongside. An area though,
I'd have to say, where I am acutely focused now
(18:41):
is on equity and racial justice. I mean I started,
I said, I started my job in the Attorney General's
Office as civil rights chief. And one of the things
I think we're experiencing in this moment two pandemics, COVID
all that that's revealed about the fragilities and our health
care system, our supply chain, who we think of an
essential worker, how we think about work now. We also
(19:03):
saw racial disparities right exposed and exacerbated there and right
alongside that George Floyd's murder. My colleague Keith Ellison and
his team did a wonderful job of prosecuting Derek Schougin.
But this moment of racial reckoning that we're in grappling
with four years of systemic racism, you know, this to
(19:26):
me is the work we need to do. And so
there's an equity lens that I'm applying to everything that
our office does and certainly would like to have done
more already than than we have done on this. So
what are some concrete things that the office is doing
to focus on equity. We take the view that you've
got to understand that racial disparities exists across every realm
(19:50):
of society employment, education, healthcare, transportation, housing, and yes, criminal justice.
I think we get a lot to focus discussion on
criminal justice, but understand and I say this as a prosecutor.
There are all sorts of reasons why people come into
the criminal justice system. Dealing with some of those root issues,
(20:13):
you know, what is happening with early education and childcare,
access to jobs, access to education, food security, housing insecurity.
If we only focus on criminal justice, which is absolutely important,
and I have been a leading reformer here in our
state on calls for policing reform and criminal justice reform.
(20:33):
But if we only focus on that, we miss, we
really miss the opportunity that we need to seize as
a country to make things better for all. So what
are we doing? For example, recently we put out a
report on health care disparities, racial disparities and healthcare, identifying
concrete things we can and need to do better collection
(20:53):
of data, diversifying our healthcare workforce so there's more cultural
competencies in the care of that that's given and and received.
On our environment, we're focusing on our environmental justice communities,
going after pollution in those areas that disproportionately affects people
of color. I could go on and on through the list.
(21:17):
Are focused on the consumer fund, you know, going after
predatory lenders or debt collectors that disproportionately target people of color,
it's got to be You know, equity is hard, right,
I mean, equity is hard, and it requires an intentionality
day after day after day. It also requires the ability
(21:39):
to have hard conversations. But if you're gonna get real
about race, like, you need to be able to have
hard conversations, difficult conversations and work through that. And it's
something that I guess I try to model as a
as a leader, as as an elected and something that
our office is is trying to do. How do you
(21:59):
handle complat in your own personal life, Like when you
decide to confront a family member or friend about something
that's hurt you, because I imagine if you're fighting for
justice every day in your professional life, you might be
just too exhausted to argue about something in your personal life. Well,
I would say that, you know, we all have personal conflict,
(22:20):
right with our partners, with our friends, with their siblings, family.
You know, it's something that I welcome advice from anyone
on how to have difficult conversations, particularly with those with
whom you're close, right, But for me, it's it's it's
better to talk. I think I found it better to
try to communicate. I think as a leader, I've learned
(22:41):
a lot about empathy, um and the need to listen,
which you know as a lawyer, as a politician, may
not come naturally at first to some like you know,
because you always want to talk, you always want to
make a point, you always want to say something. What
I've learned is the power of listening. And you listened
(23:02):
to someone's experience, you have an opportunity to register and
sort of to validate that right through empathy. And then
you may not end up seeing eye to eye on something,
or sometimes when it comes to my my work, I
may not even be able to help that person. But
we walk away from it and they walk away from
(23:23):
it feeling heard and feeling seen. And I think that's
to me, that's a big part of what's happening in
society and why things are not where they need to be.
There aren't enough people who feel seen, who feel heard,
and we need to work to change that, and we
change that through through empathy and understanding, which it is
(23:46):
constant work in progress for me to be there to
to just pause, listen here that person right, make sure
not just like listen and I heard them, but like
here that person trying to nderstand where they're coming from.
I found this to be the case too when it
comes to issues of police reform and criminal justice reform.
(24:06):
There's so much more commonality out there than the current
you know, media In some ways coverage of this suggests
and I understand that, I divisiveness drives attention, right, I mean,
we all prefer to look at a car crash than
than than are pretty painting. Isn't that sick? But studies
(24:26):
show that that's what people turn towards. So it's it's
a little bit like, how do you how do you
protect yourself and and fight and resist that that effort
to turn towards the car crash rather than focusing on
something you know, positive and uplifting and constructive. You were
on top of the opioid crisis from very early on.
You were a little bit like a lone ranger against
(24:48):
the Sackler family and the crisis. And for anyone not
familiar with the Sackler story, I happened to be in
the middle of reading Empire of Pain, and I highly
recommend it. It's really an incredible story and you have
a huge role in it. Can you tell everyone not
as familiar with the crisis and the saga, what you've
been through and a little bit about it. Yeah, I
(25:09):
think this has been a matter where i've really probably
the thing I've been most focused on is Attorney General
over the last seven years. So there's a company called
Perdue Pharma. It made OxyContin. Oxy came to market in
the late nineties. What we learned is that over time Perdue,
which was run by this very powerful Sackler family, there
(25:32):
were no public shareholders of this company was all held
by this family that over time they engaged in really
deceptive marketing and sales techniques. When they brought oxy to market,
they lied about it's addictive nature, they lied about its efficacy.
(25:54):
They told doctors and others that it was basically no
more harmful than aspirin or advil, and they then worked
the system, worked Congress, worked the f d A to
to basically get it set up so that they were
in a position to sell as much Oxy to as
(26:15):
many people as possible at as HIGHAH dose as possible.
The Sacla family also was the family that brought Valium
to the market years ago. Their forbear was the person
who was a doctor but actually pioneered the marketing of medication, right,
and this, I think story is about profits over people.
(26:36):
It's the most egregious example of corporate greeting I've ever seen.
And what happened over time is that as doctors got
marketed to by sales reps, the prescriptions went up, and
so did overdoses. The stories that were so common student
athletes who got injured, prescribed oxy and and addicted for life,
(27:01):
overdosing ultimately dying. I mean, I can just go on
and on. So many people who who found themselves because again,
these were pills that you get prescribed by a doctor,
you pick up at a pharmacist. So so many people
unknowingly found themselves addicted. I lost a family member in
the sixth Act way. I'm so sorry, Amy, And honestly,
it's hard to find somebody in this country who doesn't
(27:27):
know someone directly, if not hasn't lost somebody in their family.
And so my heart goes out to you and to
your family members. And it's because of stories like that
and yours that I said about an investigation in March.
You see, Perdue made a deal they got in trouble
mac in two thousand seven in the department that Justice
had had caught up to them, and Justice struck a
(27:49):
deal with them, and PERTY paid a big fine and
a couple of executives put guilty. But guess what, they
went ahead and they doubled down on their bad behavior,
and over the next ten years they sold you more
and more of this toxic stuff, and more and more
people died, and it reached crisis epidemic proportions. So that's
what I was inheriting as Attorney General, and that's what
(28:11):
led me to open the case. I also thought, you know,
as I as I mentioned in private practice, I used
to represent that businesses and corporations, I also used to
represent executives and board members. Corporations don't just run themselves.
And to me, with Justice having given a pass to
the executives in the past, we needed to name names
(28:34):
and bring the accountability. And I think that's one thing
that I'm very proud that my team in Massachusetts AG's
Office did. We did an extension of investigation. We were
the first to name and tell the whole story of
what the sack of family members did, and that was
followed by member of thousands of other lawsuits. We recently
reached a resolution because Perdue was driven into bankruptcy for
(28:57):
the first time ever. The Sacklers, who spent a lifetime
hiding behind nondisclosure agreements confidentiality agreements, are going to have
to produce every single email memo associated with this company,
including attorney, clients, privileged documents. It's gonna be like thirty
million documents. And you mentioned Empire pain Patrick Radcus book
(29:20):
is an incredible book. He's an incredible writer and researcher.
He tells the story of what happened here. And now
we're going to have thirty million documents, many most of
which have never been seen before. I hope that they
will inform public health experts roying Ford. I hope that
they will get Congress and the Department of Justice to
act to close loopholes, to use resources to go after
(29:43):
corporate bad actors more effectively so this never happens again.
And we're also bringing back over four billion dollars in
relief that you know in Massachusetts is going to go
directly for treatment and and care for individuals well. And
now quick break, you know you talk about with the
Sackler family and with Big Pharma. One thing aside from
(30:06):
these legal settlements, which I mean, that's thank you for
doing that work. Somebody needed to and it will change things.
But on a systemic level, we need the legislature to
change things. Are you ever going to be on that
side of things? I hear you're going to run for governor. Well,
I don't know what what I'm gonna do. I am up.
You know it's funny you have these jobs with my job.
(30:27):
The term ends in two so I'm taking this summer
to think about it and think about whether it's this
position or or another position. I want to be in
a position to make a difference, to make a contribution.
I've loved public service, and I'm just going to take
this time to to to reflect on that and I'll
make a decision. I certainly, though, will continue to be
(30:50):
in whatever realm, a strong advocate for behavioral health resources
and resources for substance used to sort. I mean, this
is such an un at need in our country. I
can't think of a family that isn't needing some form
of behavioral health services, right, whether for a kid or
a parent or a grandparent. I mean, you just think
(31:13):
about the the isolation, the anxiety this year, the depression.
You think about trauma, and whether it's by by gun
violence or domestic violence or you know, I work with
a lot of immigrant communities that traumas they've experienced. We
just have a huge need in our country, and certainly,
you know, we don't have the resources in place. I've
(31:35):
flat for a long time. We need like a full
out Peace Corps style effort on recruiting people into behavioral health.
Part of it is that behavioral health just didn't pay
as well, right, I mean, it's really hard to get
insurance coverage for behavioral health. It's hard to find providers.
You know, I talked to so many families here the
(31:55):
way times, even in Massachusetts where we have like some
terrific health care provide ers in health care, right, we
were the first state to pioneer universal health care. You
have wreak times six months. That's just like devastating in
the life of a child. So, I mean, I'm going
to continue to advocate for funding on the state level,
on the federal level on true parity when it comes
(32:18):
to mental health. And I think we still have work
to do on addressing issues of stigma, right. I think
that's one thing that that helped her do when the
Sacklers keep everybody in the dark, people who are afraid
to come forward and tell their stories. Hopefully we've we've
really cracked that open, but I know we have more
work to do there. Speaking of domestic violence, there are
(32:38):
not many attorneys general who you can work alongside with
on many issues and see eye to eye with. So
I'm certain it was a huge surprise to you when
someone you worked so closely with on a lot of
issues affecting women, Attorney General Eric Schneiderman, turned out to
be a predator. What was that like for you? I
think that was a really hard, hard news, hard bit
(33:01):
of news for for all of us in the attorney
general ranks. You know, we know each other professionally, we
don't always know each other personally. And Attorney General Schneiderman
as Attorney General was was a strong proponent of of
women's rights and women's access to reproductive health care and
so many causes. So it was it was really devastating
(33:24):
and and and shocking. I've had the privilege of working
with with Tiss James, who's the New York Attorney General,
and you know, we continue to work closely with New
York and continue to work closely with colleagues um on
both sides of the aisles as best we can, but
you know, you never really understand or no anybody's individual circumstance. Studio,
(33:48):
we had Tanya Selveratnam, one of Eric Standerman's ex girlfriends,
who is an incredible woman, went to Harvard, brilliant, talented,
and she got caught in a relationship with him, and
she'd never have been a victim before and wrote a
book about her experience. But it's one of those things
where you can think you know someone and you don't
necessarily know what they're like behind closed doors, that's right,
(34:11):
and on that and on that, you know, I think
about her as a survivor. I think about other survivors.
It's it's just the courage that it takes for them
to tell their stories and to speak up against abuse.
You know, I just have been so in awe of
(34:31):
and admiring the women, though not all women, certainly there
are men who have been victims of sexual violence as well,
but but the survivors who had the courage to tell
their story, and you know, that's important for accountability. It's
also important for like a reset and culture, isn't it?
Like I think following me to there are certain things,
whether people believe it or not, they're saying the right things,
(34:54):
you know, they're seeing the right things about what's acceptable
what's not acceptable. We need to continue to push for that,
make that and actually make that internalized and real and
genuinely felt everywhere. But I do see a lot of
progress on that front. And again, you know, as somebody
who brings cases on behalf of people, it is the
(35:15):
people who enable us to do our work. It is
the people and their lived experience that allows us to
do our work, and in doing our work, we hopefully
help others. Do you ever worry about safety? Since you're
going up against all of these powerful people all the time,
how did that impact your life? I'm mindful of it.
I mean, if you looked at my social media, I
(35:37):
you know, I get any number of trolls. I've had
death threats. I have a security team that's part of
executive Protection, so they take good care of me, and
we're vigilant. But in this day and age, it's it
is on your mind. I try not to let it
affect what I do, but particularly when it came to
to my enforcement of gun laws. You know, Massachusetts has
(35:58):
gun laws, and one of my jobs as attorney to
almost to make sure we were to enforced gun laws,
including our state's ban on assault weapons. When I did
that and I sent a notice out reminding people that
those were banned, had major protests. I remember driving by
the state House one Saturday and there were people, hundreds
(36:18):
and hundreds of people lined up with posters with my
face on it, with Hitler style mustache and and all
sorts of terrible things sort of said. And it was
very unnerving to see that. Um As I say, I feel,
you know, well protected and taken care of. But I
think anybody in public life these days, I mean, look
(36:41):
at what happened, look at the attacks on our election officials,
Republicans and Democrats who are simply trying to do their job.
That's why I think we need to come together as
a country and just really crack down on certain things.
Like we can disagree about policy, you know, and we
could have differences of opinion, and we can have a
soap all public square and debate that and talk about that.
(37:03):
But you can't threaten people, you know. You can't. You
can't you can't physically hurt people in furtherance, of your agenda,
and you know, unfortunately we're seeing too much of that
these days, but that's just part of the part of
the landscape brand. All right, Maria, we are going to
move over to our lightning round and ask you a
(37:23):
series of really quick questions and you just give us
one word answer, Amy, Why don't you kick us off?
What are you reading? I'm reading this book, miss Iceland.
I just went to Iceland. Fantastic place, highly recommended, and
Iceland has a number of really kick ass authors. What's
your morning routine? Coffee, more coffee, a stretch, and then
(37:47):
I try to have some like healthy shake or something.
Who leaves the starstruck? Oh bro still and most recently
that little girl who won the spelling Bee Championship, world
record holder for dribbling. She's a basketball player. I love her.
He leaves restore strip this week. What do you think
of all the wealthy men going into space? I don't
(38:12):
think I can capture it in one word. I could
talk about our talk with Mara all day long because
there were so many threads I wanted to pull that
we didn't get a chance to go deeper into. I mean,
for me as a lawyer, when I think about Maria's job,
like she has to make all of these incredibly hard
choices about how she best serves the people, because, as
(38:34):
she said, I think a few times, right, she sees
herself as the people's lawyer, like what are the issues
that matter the most? And right, and remember she's been
leading that office or a pandemic which had a ton
of legal consequences too well, and Amy, I feel like
there were a lot of topics that you and I
wanted to cover with her that we didn't even get to. So,
for example, the pandemic we didn't even really touch on.
We didn't touch on prison reform, with which both of
(38:57):
us are so passionate about. And you know, I feel
like what I would love to do is just have
her back when she does run for governor, because you
and I both know she's going to spend this summer
deciding governor. Maybe we'll get out when she's ready. Exactly.
I do think that we'll have her back when she's
running for governor because there's just so much chacter about
and I think that you know, each of her cases
(39:17):
is just so fascinating. And again, Emmy, you must read
this book, Empire of Pain, It's really extraordinary and she's
such a big part of it. I already ordered it.
Good call. Thanks for listening to What's Her Story with
Sam and Amy. We would so appreciate if you would
leave her of you wherever you get your podcasts, and
of course, connect with us on social media at What's
(39:39):
Her Story podcast. What's Her Story with Sam and Amy
is powered by my company, The Riveter at the Riveter
dot c o in Sam's company, park Place Payments at
park place payments dot com. Thanks to our producer Stacy Para,
our social media manager Phoebe crane Fest, and our male
perspective Lou Burns.
Hosts And Creators
Samantha Ettus
Amy Nelson
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