April 21, 2022 • 33 mins
Nicole Lapin is a former news anchor turned finance expert. Known for her straight talk, she is the author of four books including her most recent, Miss Independent. Nicole is the host of her own “Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin” and Hatched, a business competition show on The CW Network.
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
I'm Sam Edis and I'm Amy Nelson. Welcome to What's
Her Story? With Sam and Amy. This is a show
about the world's most remarkable women, their professional and personal journeys. Together,
we'll hear from gold medalists, best selling authors, and leaders
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(00:30):
Nicole Labin is a former news anchor turned finance expert
known for her strade talk. She's the author of four books,
including her most recent, Miss Independent. She's the current host
of her Own Money Rehab with Nicole Labin and the
host of Hatched, a business competition show on the c
W Network. There are so many things that you've done
that I've read about that scream independence, from from freezing
(00:54):
her exit h one to you know, never having gotten married,
to living in in many many different cities and earning
your own money. What do you think in your childhood
lead you down this path all of it? I think
I grew up in a very traumatic upbringing. I actually
(01:19):
always tried to hide that part of my story and
thought it was my biggest weakness. It ended up being
my greatest superpower, but it was only once I could
actually be open and honest about it. I grew up
in an immigrant household, so first generation American UM. My
father died of a drug overdose when I was eleven.
My mother, as you read in the beginning part of
(01:41):
my book, I bailed her out of jail a bunch
of times when I was in middle school, and so
I was dealt a pretty shitty hand and I played
it the best I could. I think I won um
but I didn't really have another option, and it really
didn't have any more to lose. So I think everything
with my childhood and the way I was brought up
(02:03):
in a chaotic and abusive home, I think led me
to the only option that was available to me, and
that was independence. I didn't have any backup plan. I
didn't have a couch to go home to if something failed.
I didn't have you know, family money if I lost
(02:24):
my job. So that was the only path for me
to take of independence. But so many people in those
circumstances just just fall away, right They collapse under the
weight of the stress. Or they don't make it through
high school, they don't make it to college, they don't
make it through college, they don't end up having successful careers.
(02:45):
What was it that made you different? I'm not sure. Actually,
I think I went the opposite route. You know. I
used to get a lot of people say, oh, your
father must have made a call for you or something
like that. When I UM started at CNN when I
was twenty one. You know, a lot of my colleagues
(03:05):
didn't think that that was possible without some sort of connections.
And it couldn't have been farther from the truth. You know,
I wasn't born anywhere on the basis. I was probably
born like in the alleyway, by the trash, I mean,
And so I think I probably overcompensated the other way.
(03:26):
Became the valedictorian of my high school and my college.
And the only reason I say that, because that in
three fifty will get me a soil Otte these days,
is that, you know, I really self prescribed, not drugs
or alcohol to hide UM, but work and then some
more work, and of course that led me to a
complete mental, physical, emotional burnout and breakdown from you know,
(03:51):
constantly self prescribing work since I was in my teens.
I started on the air, I started at the Chicago Mark,
which I thought was a mall at the time when
I was eighteen years old. So I was on the
air for a really really long time by the time,
you know, I was in my late twenties and early thirties,
(04:11):
and it kind of all came to a head. How
did you get the job at the Mark? Did you
just send in a resume and like how did it happen? Yeah, well,
at the time, you sent out a lot of VHS tapes,
which I just found my VHS tape. Of course it
was had a red box, unlike you know the black
boxes with the scribbling on it. I tried to have
(04:31):
mine stand out and I yeah, I worked at the
cable Access station and then I just stalked the station
chief in downtown Chicago who had a station in Milwaukee,
and I begged for an interview because I said, I
will do anything. At that point, through Northwestern they had
(04:52):
a program where I was a reporter in Sioux Fall,
South Dakota at the CBS station and Lexington, Kentucky at
the CBS station. So I kind of did an ad
hoc little education for myself and went to these smaller
markets and back in the day before YouTube and no
skipping steps. You had to go to these small markets
and sort of work your way up. So I was like, okay,
(05:12):
I know that I need to do that. A lot
of girls in my broadcast class would go to these
small markets, marry the police chief or whatever and stay there.
And I was like, no putting on my blinders, like
I want to be in and out of these places.
No offense to these places. I just, you know, had
probably an unhealthy ambition at the time, and at that
(05:34):
point I was like, Okay, I'm ready for big market Milwaukee,
Like this is my big break. I will take the train,
I'll do anything to get to the CBS station in Milwaukee.
And once I finally got the interview, I said all
of this, and the station chief was like, you don't
get the job, and also you should learn more about geography. Um,
you can't take the train prey day to Milwaukee, but
(05:55):
do you know anything about business news? And this was
my worst nightmare. Um. My boyfriend in high school said
he wanted to be a hedge fund manager, and I
thought he wanted to be in gardening, so like I
was completely clueless. You know, I told you that my
family just used cash and in nefarious ways too. So
I didn't want to think about business or money or
(06:17):
much less talk about it much. Let's talk about it
to the world. But I needed a job, and so
I said, absolutely, I know about business news. Of course,
I know about business news all day, every day and
twice on Sunday. And I was like, holy sh it,
I guess I have to figure out business news. And
so yeah, I realized that money is a language just
(06:37):
like anything else, and I figured it out and that
was quite a place to do that. But yeah, I
just needed a job. And I think a lot of
times when we have these conversations about entrepreneurialism, you guys know,
it's like, go out and do what you love, yolo
fomo whatever you And I'm like, yo, I didn't have
(06:57):
the luxury to do that. I wanted to be a
poet when I grew up, like I started as an
English major. I wanted to sit under a tree and
um write poetry. And then I needed to pay the bills.
And so there's no shame in doing things that you
need to do at the time. And for me, I
found the shaded part of that ven diagram the things
that I loved and the opportunity I had, and then
(07:20):
I found the shaded part because I became a writer,
just not the kind of expected And now a quick break.
In your book, you talk about how everyone has some
degree of money trauma, and we know that you had
a traumatic childhood. What role did money play in that
childhood or the scarcity of money? Yeah, I have an
(07:44):
irrational fear still to this day, and I talk about money.
I teach others about money of being broke, alone and homeless,
and it doesn't matter how much is in my bank account.
And I just constantly still catasted fives and have to
you know, talk my way out of it. Um. I
have little discussions with myself a lot that i'm that's
(08:08):
not going to happen. And it's really helped me to embrace,
not to get to esoteric or wonky, this stoicism philosophy
where we suffer more in imagination than in reality. And
I always try to entertain the worst case scenario. Okay,
so what if I lose this project or what if
I lose this job? Am I going to be alone, broken,
(08:28):
homeless and living in the gutter as I imagine? No,
I'm not. I have friends, I you know, my chosen family.
That's never gonna happen to me. So still, you know,
I have financial demons that haunt me, but we all have,
I think, to some extent, micro or mackerel financial traumas.
Whether you know our family. I mean, if you look
(08:51):
at me and you're like, girl, I did not have
to bail my mama out of jail with the cash
under the stink next to the maxipads like you did.
But you know, maybe my parents hoarded or clipped coupons
or spent frivolously, and that affects how you look at money.
And then macro traumas like the dot com bubble or
(09:12):
the Great Recession, the housing crash, or the pandemic. I mean,
this all affects how we look at money, and so
it's really important to realize that just because it's been
a certain way doesn't mean it's the way it needs
to be. And oftentimes I get questions about, you know,
raising financially responsible kids, and I don't have kids yet,
(09:35):
but I would say that just by being a kid, Uh,
it is so important to lead by example. So I mean,
you could try to find all the little kid financial
books that you want, but if you're a financial mess.
That's not help book because your kids are watching everything
you're doing. How do you define financial independence? For me,
(09:57):
financial independence is having the ultimate a few money to
leave a crappy job or leave a crappy relationship. And
I think far too often women in particular stay in
terrible relationships. I've received a lot of notes of women
staying in abusive relationships because they're scared of taking care
(10:17):
of themselves financially. And for me, that is having the
ultimate financial independence is having that choice and having that freedom.
Along those lines, you've had a lot of high profile
relationships with men who are very, very successful. You went
with people who were as ambitious as you were. Is
(10:39):
that fair to say? Well, I have a very colorful
dating history, not all of it is on the internet,
so um. You know, for me, I was always attracted
to uh, someone who was ambitious and could relate to
you know, some of that drive that I had for
(10:59):
better or and you know, for me, regardless of a relationship,
it's always important to have your own back, and it's
always important to take control of those conversations that you mentioned,
like what if he leaves me? What if he asked
for a prenup, Like fuck that, you know you suggest
a prenup. So I'm even talking to my fiance now
(11:19):
about prenups and I'm like, great, I made my own money,
I have my own stuff, Like cool, let's talk about
a prenup. And so, I don't know where in the
zeitgeist we've somehow relinquished control of these conversations. I think
you can reframe them and take them back, and I
think we should. Unfortunately, a lot of women want to
(11:42):
get their financial lives together or have to get their
financial lives together when they get divorced or when their
husband dies. And during some of my previous book to Wars,
when we were out, I r l not just you
r l um. You know, I'd have young women or
I'd have their moms. Unfortunately, tell me like, yeah, she
went to x Y z ivy league school, but I
(12:03):
just want her to marry a rich guy. I'm like,
are you gidding me? This is still a thing. And
if we, you know, try to hide behind this boss
whitch definitely, I wrote the book boss Bitch, and so
I you know, this rhetoric unfortunately is not actually becoming
reality in the way that we'd hope it to be.
And so I think that having a proactive financial literacy
(12:27):
discussion is really hard to have. Um I've tried to
do it, of course, but it's just like having a
proactive healthy eating plan is hard. It's you know, once
you unfortunately get a diagnosis, then you have to be
reactive and you have no other choice but to do it.
So I see a lot of women who have gotten
divorced and either are screwed in one of two ways.
(12:49):
Either there they don't have any money, or they don't
have any credit because all of the bills were in
there somebody else's name. So in a lot of senses,
you know, not having a prenup and not protecting yourself
can screw you in ways that you don't expect, like
by the way debt gets shared in a marriage, as
you guys know. And I think that having control, whether
(13:12):
it's with an estate plan, any sort of advanced directives,
power of attorney, prenups is better than having the state
decide what your affairs are going to be. Like do
you feel like men get different financial advice when they're
young men when their boys or young men are like yeah,
And I quote a study in Misindependent that shows young
(13:33):
boys associate these power words with money, so these ambitious
type words, and young girls associate scarcity words with money.
So obviously finances isn't something only a guy can do.
There's not any magical, you know, special sauce that men
can only figure out. But they talk about it way more,
(13:54):
and they talk about it more confidently. I mean, I'll
tell you living with an entrepreneur, you know, whether he
knows something or not, he for sure says it really confidently. Um,
And so I think that's something that we're missing. I
don't necessarily think there's a knowledge gap. I think there's
an action gap. You know. I don't think knowledge is power.
(14:15):
We have so much knowledge out there. I mean there's
all the books, forget about the ones that I've written,
and all the others, and all the podcasts and all
the articles. I mean, knowledge isn't ultimate financial power. Action
is power. And you're never as young as you are
today because you know, you hear these stories or excuses
like I don't have enough money to start, I'm too old,
(14:37):
all these things, or just stories that we're telling ourselves.
And so yeah, I was just drinking out of my
coffee tup um. One of my slogans from Miss Independent
was I'm glad I didn't invest earlier, said no one ever,
No one in the history of the world has ever
said that. It's like you never regret a workout, like
getting my ass on a treadmill is very hard, but
afterwards I'm stoked. Same thing with investing. What kind of
(14:59):
narro relative did you have going into you know, you
talk about in your twenties it was all ambition. At
what point did that change for you and you decided, Okay,
I want a fuller life, not just my career. Well,
I had no choice when I ended up in the
psychiatric ward of n y U in the middle of
(15:21):
the night with my shrink and my assistant um canceling
my entire schedule because I was depressed and suicidal and
had all of these issues that I never dealt with
and I couldn't outrun them anymore. And it was only
then that I realized self care is either the biggest
(15:43):
asset or liability in your career. It can take you
to rock bottom like it did for me, or it
can bring you more success than you imagine. So it
was only then where I realized, you know, I set
this little goal post for myself. I'll be happy when
I get to the network, or I'll be happy when
I get to New York. Or I'll be happy when
I get one book. I'll be happy, but really when
(16:06):
it hits the New York Times bestseller list. Okay, but
then I'll be happy only when I have two books.
And you know, there's always something there there And for me,
I never got my brain to the other side of
happiness with that construction, and so it kicked mass and
at that point I had no choice but to create
(16:27):
a fuller life for myself. So what did you do
when you left the hospital? What did you do? I
went on a crazy journey. Like you know, we started
this show joking that I was Tracy Flick of podcasting.
I felt like I was Tracy Flick or Valedictorian of
the psych word because I was taking notes. I was like,
(16:47):
I want to learn. I want to figure out how
to hack this, because we don't learn this stuff in school.
I mean, if I were in charge of the world,
we would not only learn about financial literacy growing up,
but also what I learned dialectical behavioral therapy for instance,
that really helped me and changed my life in an
outpatient program, basic interpersonal skills, interpersonal effectiveness, stress management, to
(17:10):
stress tolerance, all of these things that are really important
in all aspects of business. So I went to see
every healer in the history of the world. Amy, I
went to see you know, Balinese uh medicine men, to
like Indian chiefs, to psychis, to mirror ball, to god
(17:32):
knows where. And I felt really fortunate at that point
to be able to afford a lot of this because
it was really expensive. And so I took notes along
the way, and I didn't necessarily expect it to turn
into a book, but um, I felt compelled to be like, Okay, everybody,
this is the cheek code if you don't have the
money to do all of these therapies. Here's the cliff
(17:55):
notes version of that. So I really, um yeah, I
took a year in half probably and just soaked all
of the woo woo stuff that I could possibly soak
up and tried to turn it into an action plan.
You know, my brain works in like steps and metrics
(18:16):
and measuring too, metrics and all of these types of things,
and so um, so yeah, I went on a journey
to figure out how to do that. What was that moment, Like,
I think so many people, especially now, are suffering from
mental health issues. What was the precipitating moment for you
that said, Okay, like enough is enough. I'm I'm going
into psychiatric word. This isn't just normal stress. I thought
(18:40):
a lot about this question, and I have a line
in Becoming Superwoman where I talk about this. Um that's
one of my favorite lines in the book. It says
that my breakdown wasn't a spontaneous combustion precipitated by a
single event, but a lifetime of smoldering emperors that finally
caught fire and incinerated everything in its path. And I
(19:03):
think it really was that I was just finishing up
my second book tour, and when I went out to
do my third, I had a team that was like,
are you okay, because like the second one created all
this stuff, And I was like, it wasn't the book,
it wasn't this one thing. It was this whole lifetime
(19:24):
of self hate and self neglect. And I had a
lot of still imposter syndrome now about talking about how
to you know, indulge in self care, because I was like,
I'm no expert in this. I'm more of an expert
in self harm or self hatred than self care and
(19:44):
self love. And that's what made me hopefully a good
person to talk about it, because I know what it
was like, you know, I know what um that darkness
was like. I know what it's like to have many
rounds in the ring with darkness. And I also know
what it's like to be broke and live on a
brown rice and beans diet because it felt fancier than roman.
What do you hope that your life looks like when
(20:06):
you're in your seventies? What do you hope your career
looks like? I love that, um. Sometimes I talk to
my old lady self. UM. I have a lot of
uh dialogues with myself, my younger self, my older self.
I think my younger self would finally be proud of me.
I kind of lost my way a little bit, um
and and focused on some of the things that you know,
(20:28):
perhaps she wouldn't have loved. And I think my old
lady self, UM, I would I love for her to
have the um, the financial freedom and you know, the
ability to not only pursue projects she loves. But I
(20:48):
have no regrets. On her death bed, I think about
my death bed a lot. You know, the the word
that Chris Pan does the my Intent bracelets where you
put like the word on the circle. I've often put
time when then I tattooed that, so then I stopped
putting that. But then deathbed because they think about, you
(21:08):
know what, am I going to regret not being brave
enough to do? So what was the moment when you
felt like, Okay, I'm healed, I'm ready for the next
chapter of my life. I don't think you're every necessarily healed.
I actually wrote an epilogue to my last book where
I felt like I was on the verge of another
(21:29):
breakdown right in the precipice of the launch of the book,
and I actually delayed it six months, which my former
self would have never imagined doing. And I said, you know,
balance can be used as a noun and a verb,
and often in this discussion we use it as a noun,
like I found balance. It's there, I'm good. And I
(21:50):
think for me, it's been helpful to use it as
a verb because it's something that's constantly in motion. It's
something you constantly have to work on and cultivate. So
I think that for me, remembering that balance and chaos coexists.
They have to coexist because sometimes again in a habit
even still where I'll get back to that balance or
(22:12):
self care stuff like after this, and um, you know,
I think that there's never an after this for me
realizing that you have to be in both. In fact,
both have to coexist to have the other. And so
it's a lifelong journey. I think I'm always going to
be a reader of my um my third book, which
(22:35):
is crazy because I'm the writer, but also I think
a lifelong reader. And now a quick break. Are you
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does your fiance Joe fit into this timeline? He and
(23:18):
I met over the pandemic I moved from New York
to l A. I drove by myself, and I didn't
know that I would end up back in l A.
I grew up in l A and I lived in
ten cities. UM since then it always felt like home
to me. So I ended up getting back here and
(23:38):
UM connected with a matchmaker named Talia Goldstein who's the
founder of three Day role UM. And so she and
I had always tried to connect over the years, um,
you know, when I was in between relationships, and we
never did. So she sent me an email and I
jumped on the phone with her and she's like, you know,
I think I have somebody for you. What's up? And
(24:00):
at that point I got had a lot of clarity
about what I was looking for, Like I needed to
have my right handed wedding ring before I had my
left handed one and have that most important relationship first,
which I did, and found a lot of clarity about
what I was looking for and who I was. And
so I just was super real with Talia and I
(24:21):
was like, here's where I'm at. And she's like, well,
I don't think you're right for this guy, but I'll
put you in the database and if there's a guy
that meets your criteria, I'll call you and what do
you think? I said, why do you think I'm not
right for the guy? Yeah? Or I just said, I'm
not a database girl, and I would like somebody to
meet my criteria versus the other way around. So I
(24:44):
had no intention of joining this service, but whatever it is,
on principle, I'm going to feel good about this conversation
if I get off not being in a database waiting
to meet somebody else's criteria, but the other way around.
And oftentimes men join these services as clients. Although Ali
Webb had just met her I don't know fiance yet
at the time through Talia, and she was a member,
(25:07):
and so I thought, okay, she's like a boss bitch whisperer.
She gets it. And so I joined with very low expectations.
And um, you know, there are only a couple of
truisms on Wall Street and life by low cell high,
and it's better to beat low expectations, and um, and
very low expectations for it. And um, the first person
(25:32):
they introduced me to, they said, well, we actually have
he's not a client, that he was an early investor
in three Day Roll and he was actually the only
male investor who invested in Talia while she was pregnant fundraising,
and he's always rejected all of the offers that we've
put before him, I guess. And but he's really excited
(25:54):
about you, and I know it's that was Joe, my
now fiance. UM, but he I always joke with him
that he invested in the company to have the right
of first refusal on all the best ladies. But of course, yeah,
we met. Our first date was at Neptune's net Um.
There was nothing to do during quarantine, so we ended
(26:15):
up talking a lot, and um, he came up with
this little ruse that I found out later that he
needed to move really quickly. And I had moved from
New York and love housing everything. If all else fails,
I would be an interior designer and I just love
housing porn noble varieties, and so I had like compass
(26:37):
folders ready to go, and he's like, well, you know,
maybe you can show me some of the options that
you had in there, and still liked, maybe you can
help me, and I was like, sure, no problem, um,
and I did. And I later find out he didn't
really need to move, but he wanted to lock it down,
and so he was like, well, take a key or whatever,
(27:00):
and you know, come and go. And then we looked
at this first place we looked at, which is the
place we live in now. He was like, no, you
know what, just move in with me. And so I
had a place that I love, love, loved um that
was like my bachelorette pad that I actually lived next
to the actual bachelorette. This was a very funny story too.
(27:21):
When I first moved in, I was sitting outside and
she was so sweet and got my postmates or something,
and I was like, yeah, this is my bacherette pad.
Like I'm basically going to just lean into the idea
that I was put on this planet to help women
with money and not get married and have kids and
that's all good. And she's like, do you know who
I am? And I'm like, I don't know. You're my neighbor.
(27:41):
And she's like, I am the Bachelorette and I'm like,
I've never seen the show, not one, not ever. And
I was like, oh, that's crazy. You're Southern and like
you sound so you know, like you want the guy
to be Chivalris and all these things. So if the
the bachelor proposes to the bachelorette or whatever on the show.
(28:04):
Is it the opposite on the Bachelorette? Like, do you
propose to the guy? I had no idea, I was
so good, but yeah, I ended up leaving that place
and we moved together and he proposed probably less than
a year later. Is this your first engagement? It is?
So does it bring up all sorts of like financial
(28:25):
merging issues for you know, I mean we're very financially
nerdy family. He's a fintech entrepreneur and an anti poverty
advocate and thinks about many issues a lot, and we
both had very similar upbringings. Actually both of our homes
um were foreclosed on when we were a little which
(28:46):
had a huge impact on our lives um and contributed
to our desire to want to help others. It really
comes from the most honest place within me that, you know,
I want to teach my former self, which she didn't know.
And now that I you know, got beyond the red
velvet ropes of Wall Street that I never thought I would,
I'm like, oh, I want to tell you guys all
(29:08):
the things. And so he feels very similarly, and so, yeah,
having financial discussions at this point. You know, is definitely
a much easier I want to have. But a lot
of couples do fight and separate because of money more
than anything else. All right, well we are going to
go to our speed around and now we're just going
(29:30):
to ask you a few quick questions and you can
give us quick answers aimed. You want to start? Yes,
what book are you reading now? The Art of Stillness?
What is the last vacation you tech to Hawaii over
the holidays? Who leaves you star struck? Janet yelling? It's
(29:52):
a good answer issues. You know, you've made these Tracy
Flick jokes and you present as very perfect. What's the
last imperfect thing that you did? I put my lash
on incorrectly because there was a shooting unfortunately on the
(30:15):
four oh five today and so the Glam team couldn't come,
and so I had half of my lash on um
as of one hour ago. All right, Well, Lou Burns
has been listening and he always comes in at the
end with a male perspective, and often the sharpest perspective,
So umlu take it away. So there was something you
(30:37):
mentioned about about home interior decorating, and I thought about
the many roles you play in life, and um, you know,
I've done quite a few things. So what role in
your life do you enjoy the most. Well, when you
bring up home design and work, if I read between
the lines, I do really enjoy making a few a
(31:00):
full home. I feel like a boss bitch at work,
but I actually really like being sort of in my
feminine energy at home. And that's not for everybody. But
we have a show on my first podcast, touch Money,
where we debated who plays who pays on a first date,
and my producer just assume that Jason, my co host,
(31:22):
would say that the man should pay, and then I
would say split And I was like, hell, no, I'm
not a touching no, no, no, And it's not because
I can't pay, It's because I don't want to. So yeah,
I do the I did the fake reach a lot
proudly because I think that there's the difference between needing
(31:44):
somebody and wanting someone. And I really enjoyed that role
in my life now, which is odd I never thought
I would even have that role. What would you like
to be doing that you're that door right now. I
would really like to start a family. Um, that's uh,
it's harder. Who knew back in the day, Oh my goodness,
we thought we could be pregnant like at any day
(32:06):
of the month, like if no matter what, and uh,
it's it's harder than you think. So that's a role
that I'm excited to find somehow. One day, Amy Nicole
makes me want to save money and like really dig
into my finances in a deeper way. She really does.
And the thing is, like, I love how she walks
(32:29):
this line of being like really pragmatic and I feel
like conservative about money with the talking about it in
a really fun way, which I think is one of
the hardest hurdles for people because money is scary to
talk about. Yeah, I agree. Her writing is very straightforward
but fun, Like it's hard to make a finance books fun,
but she manages to do that. And I also, I mean,
our personal story is one of a lot of struggle,
(32:52):
and it's quite inspiring. Even just the fact that now
she you know, found true love and and it's rewriting
a new chapter of her life is really inspirational. I
think it really is. I think I mean to hear
a woman who has gone through such hard childhood put
all of these pieces together and not only succeed professionally,
(33:12):
but personally is pretty amazing. Thanks for listening to What's
Her Story with Sam and Amy. We would appreciate it
if you leave a review wherever you get your podcasts,
and of course, connect with us on social media at
What's Her Story podcast. What's Her Story with Sam and
Amy is powered by my company, The Riveter at the
(33:33):
Riveter dot c O and Sam's company, park Place Payments
at park place Payments dot com. Thanks to our producer
Stacy Para and our male perspective Blue Burns
I'm Sam Edis and I'm Amy Nelson. Welcome to What's
Her Story? With Sam and Amy. This is a show
about the world's most remarkable women, their professional and personal journeys. Together,
we'll hear from gold medalists, best selling authors, and leaders
of the world's most iconic brands. Listen every Thursday or
join the conversation anytime on Instagram at What's Her Story Podcast.
(00:30):
Nicole Labin is a former news anchor turned finance expert
known for her strade talk. She's the author of four books,
including her most recent, Miss Independent. She's the current host
of her Own Money Rehab with Nicole Labin and the
host of Hatched, a business competition show on the c
W Network. There are so many things that you've done
that I've read about that scream independence, from from freezing
(00:54):
her exit h one to you know, never having gotten married,
to living in in many many different cities and earning
your own money. What do you think in your childhood
lead you down this path all of it? I think
I grew up in a very traumatic upbringing. I actually
(01:19):
always tried to hide that part of my story and
thought it was my biggest weakness. It ended up being
my greatest superpower, but it was only once I could
actually be open and honest about it. I grew up
in an immigrant household, so first generation American UM. My
father died of a drug overdose when I was eleven.
My mother, as you read in the beginning part of
(01:41):
my book, I bailed her out of jail a bunch
of times when I was in middle school, and so
I was dealt a pretty shitty hand and I played
it the best I could. I think I won um
but I didn't really have another option, and it really
didn't have any more to lose. So I think everything
with my childhood and the way I was brought up
(02:03):
in a chaotic and abusive home, I think led me
to the only option that was available to me, and
that was independence. I didn't have any backup plan. I
didn't have a couch to go home to if something failed.
I didn't have you know, family money if I lost
(02:24):
my job. So that was the only path for me
to take of independence. But so many people in those
circumstances just just fall away, right They collapse under the
weight of the stress. Or they don't make it through
high school, they don't make it to college, they don't
make it through college, they don't end up having successful careers.
(02:45):
What was it that made you different? I'm not sure. Actually,
I think I went the opposite route. You know. I
used to get a lot of people say, oh, your
father must have made a call for you or something
like that. When I UM started at CNN when I
was twenty one. You know, a lot of my colleagues
(03:05):
didn't think that that was possible without some sort of connections.
And it couldn't have been farther from the truth. You know,
I wasn't born anywhere on the basis. I was probably
born like in the alleyway, by the trash, I mean,
And so I think I probably overcompensated the other way.
(03:26):
Became the valedictorian of my high school and my college.
And the only reason I say that, because that in
three fifty will get me a soil Otte these days,
is that, you know, I really self prescribed, not drugs
or alcohol to hide UM, but work and then some
more work, and of course that led me to a
complete mental, physical, emotional burnout and breakdown from you know,
(03:51):
constantly self prescribing work since I was in my teens.
I started on the air, I started at the Chicago Mark,
which I thought was a mall at the time when
I was eighteen years old. So I was on the
air for a really really long time by the time,
you know, I was in my late twenties and early thirties,
(04:11):
and it kind of all came to a head. How
did you get the job at the Mark? Did you
just send in a resume and like how did it happen? Yeah, well,
at the time, you sent out a lot of VHS tapes,
which I just found my VHS tape. Of course it
was had a red box, unlike you know the black
boxes with the scribbling on it. I tried to have
(04:31):
mine stand out and I yeah, I worked at the
cable Access station and then I just stalked the station
chief in downtown Chicago who had a station in Milwaukee,
and I begged for an interview because I said, I
will do anything. At that point, through Northwestern they had
(04:52):
a program where I was a reporter in Sioux Fall,
South Dakota at the CBS station and Lexington, Kentucky at
the CBS station. So I kind of did an ad
hoc little education for myself and went to these smaller
markets and back in the day before YouTube and no
skipping steps. You had to go to these small markets
and sort of work your way up. So I was like, okay,
(05:12):
I know that I need to do that. A lot
of girls in my broadcast class would go to these
small markets, marry the police chief or whatever and stay there.
And I was like, no putting on my blinders, like
I want to be in and out of these places.
No offense to these places. I just, you know, had
probably an unhealthy ambition at the time, and at that
(05:34):
point I was like, Okay, I'm ready for big market Milwaukee,
Like this is my big break. I will take the train,
I'll do anything to get to the CBS station in Milwaukee.
And once I finally got the interview, I said all
of this, and the station chief was like, you don't
get the job, and also you should learn more about geography. Um,
you can't take the train prey day to Milwaukee, but
(05:55):
do you know anything about business news? And this was
my worst nightmare. Um. My boyfriend in high school said
he wanted to be a hedge fund manager, and I
thought he wanted to be in gardening, so like I
was completely clueless. You know, I told you that my
family just used cash and in nefarious ways too. So
I didn't want to think about business or money or
(06:17):
much less talk about it much. Let's talk about it
to the world. But I needed a job, and so
I said, absolutely, I know about business news. Of course,
I know about business news all day, every day and
twice on Sunday. And I was like, holy sh it,
I guess I have to figure out business news. And
so yeah, I realized that money is a language just
(06:37):
like anything else, and I figured it out and that
was quite a place to do that. But yeah, I
just needed a job. And I think a lot of
times when we have these conversations about entrepreneurialism, you guys know,
it's like, go out and do what you love, yolo
fomo whatever you And I'm like, yo, I didn't have
(06:57):
the luxury to do that. I wanted to be a
poet when I grew up, like I started as an
English major. I wanted to sit under a tree and
um write poetry. And then I needed to pay the bills.
And so there's no shame in doing things that you
need to do at the time. And for me, I
found the shaded part of that ven diagram the things
that I loved and the opportunity I had, and then
(07:20):
I found the shaded part because I became a writer,
just not the kind of expected And now a quick break.
In your book, you talk about how everyone has some
degree of money trauma, and we know that you had
a traumatic childhood. What role did money play in that
childhood or the scarcity of money? Yeah, I have an
(07:44):
irrational fear still to this day, and I talk about money.
I teach others about money of being broke, alone and homeless,
and it doesn't matter how much is in my bank account.
And I just constantly still catasted fives and have to
you know, talk my way out of it. Um. I
have little discussions with myself a lot that i'm that's
(08:08):
not going to happen. And it's really helped me to embrace,
not to get to esoteric or wonky, this stoicism philosophy
where we suffer more in imagination than in reality. And
I always try to entertain the worst case scenario. Okay,
so what if I lose this project or what if
I lose this job? Am I going to be alone, broken,
(08:28):
homeless and living in the gutter as I imagine? No,
I'm not. I have friends, I you know, my chosen family.
That's never gonna happen to me. So still, you know,
I have financial demons that haunt me, but we all have,
I think, to some extent, micro or mackerel financial traumas.
Whether you know our family. I mean, if you look
(08:51):
at me and you're like, girl, I did not have
to bail my mama out of jail with the cash
under the stink next to the maxipads like you did.
But you know, maybe my parents hoarded or clipped coupons
or spent frivolously, and that affects how you look at money.
And then macro traumas like the dot com bubble or
(09:12):
the Great Recession, the housing crash, or the pandemic. I mean,
this all affects how we look at money, and so
it's really important to realize that just because it's been
a certain way doesn't mean it's the way it needs
to be. And oftentimes I get questions about, you know,
raising financially responsible kids, and I don't have kids yet,
(09:35):
but I would say that just by being a kid, Uh,
it is so important to lead by example. So I mean,
you could try to find all the little kid financial
books that you want, but if you're a financial mess.
That's not help book because your kids are watching everything
you're doing. How do you define financial independence? For me,
(09:57):
financial independence is having the ultimate a few money to
leave a crappy job or leave a crappy relationship. And
I think far too often women in particular stay in
terrible relationships. I've received a lot of notes of women
staying in abusive relationships because they're scared of taking care
(10:17):
of themselves financially. And for me, that is having the
ultimate financial independence is having that choice and having that freedom.
Along those lines, you've had a lot of high profile
relationships with men who are very, very successful. You went
with people who were as ambitious as you were. Is
(10:39):
that fair to say? Well, I have a very colorful
dating history, not all of it is on the internet,
so um. You know, for me, I was always attracted
to uh, someone who was ambitious and could relate to
you know, some of that drive that I had for
(10:59):
better or and you know, for me, regardless of a relationship,
it's always important to have your own back, and it's
always important to take control of those conversations that you mentioned,
like what if he leaves me? What if he asked
for a prenup, Like fuck that, you know you suggest
a prenup. So I'm even talking to my fiance now
(11:19):
about prenups and I'm like, great, I made my own money,
I have my own stuff, Like cool, let's talk about
a prenup. And so, I don't know where in the
zeitgeist we've somehow relinquished control of these conversations. I think
you can reframe them and take them back, and I
think we should. Unfortunately, a lot of women want to
(11:42):
get their financial lives together or have to get their
financial lives together when they get divorced or when their
husband dies. And during some of my previous book to Wars,
when we were out, I r l not just you
r l um. You know, I'd have young women or
I'd have their moms. Unfortunately, tell me like, yeah, she
went to x Y z ivy league school, but I
(12:03):
just want her to marry a rich guy. I'm like,
are you gidding me? This is still a thing. And
if we, you know, try to hide behind this boss
whitch definitely, I wrote the book boss Bitch, and so
I you know, this rhetoric unfortunately is not actually becoming
reality in the way that we'd hope it to be.
And so I think that having a proactive financial literacy
(12:27):
discussion is really hard to have. Um I've tried to
do it, of course, but it's just like having a
proactive healthy eating plan is hard. It's you know, once
you unfortunately get a diagnosis, then you have to be
reactive and you have no other choice but to do it.
So I see a lot of women who have gotten
divorced and either are screwed in one of two ways.
(12:49):
Either there they don't have any money, or they don't
have any credit because all of the bills were in
there somebody else's name. So in a lot of senses,
you know, not having a prenup and not protecting yourself
can screw you in ways that you don't expect, like
by the way debt gets shared in a marriage, as
you guys know. And I think that having control, whether
(13:12):
it's with an estate plan, any sort of advanced directives,
power of attorney, prenups is better than having the state
decide what your affairs are going to be. Like do
you feel like men get different financial advice when they're
young men when their boys or young men are like yeah,
And I quote a study in Misindependent that shows young
(13:33):
boys associate these power words with money, so these ambitious
type words, and young girls associate scarcity words with money.
So obviously finances isn't something only a guy can do.
There's not any magical, you know, special sauce that men
can only figure out. But they talk about it way more,
(13:54):
and they talk about it more confidently. I mean, I'll
tell you living with an entrepreneur, you know, whether he
knows something or not, he for sure says it really confidently. Um,
And so I think that's something that we're missing. I
don't necessarily think there's a knowledge gap. I think there's
an action gap. You know. I don't think knowledge is power.
(14:15):
We have so much knowledge out there. I mean there's
all the books, forget about the ones that I've written,
and all the others, and all the podcasts and all
the articles. I mean, knowledge isn't ultimate financial power. Action
is power. And you're never as young as you are
today because you know, you hear these stories or excuses
like I don't have enough money to start, I'm too old,
(14:37):
all these things, or just stories that we're telling ourselves.
And so yeah, I was just drinking out of my
coffee tup um. One of my slogans from Miss Independent
was I'm glad I didn't invest earlier, said no one ever,
No one in the history of the world has ever
said that. It's like you never regret a workout, like
getting my ass on a treadmill is very hard, but
afterwards I'm stoked. Same thing with investing. What kind of
(14:59):
narro relative did you have going into you know, you
talk about in your twenties it was all ambition. At
what point did that change for you and you decided, Okay,
I want a fuller life, not just my career. Well,
I had no choice when I ended up in the
psychiatric ward of n y U in the middle of
(15:21):
the night with my shrink and my assistant um canceling
my entire schedule because I was depressed and suicidal and
had all of these issues that I never dealt with
and I couldn't outrun them anymore. And it was only
then that I realized self care is either the biggest
(15:43):
asset or liability in your career. It can take you
to rock bottom like it did for me, or it
can bring you more success than you imagine. So it
was only then where I realized, you know, I set
this little goal post for myself. I'll be happy when
I get to the network, or I'll be happy when
I get to New York. Or I'll be happy when
I get one book. I'll be happy, but really when
(16:06):
it hits the New York Times bestseller list. Okay, but
then I'll be happy only when I have two books.
And you know, there's always something there there And for me,
I never got my brain to the other side of
happiness with that construction, and so it kicked mass and
at that point I had no choice but to create
(16:27):
a fuller life for myself. So what did you do
when you left the hospital? What did you do? I
went on a crazy journey. Like you know, we started
this show joking that I was Tracy Flick of podcasting.
I felt like I was Tracy Flick or Valedictorian of
the psych word because I was taking notes. I was like,
(16:47):
I want to learn. I want to figure out how
to hack this, because we don't learn this stuff in school.
I mean, if I were in charge of the world,
we would not only learn about financial literacy growing up,
but also what I learned dialectical behavioral therapy for instance,
that really helped me and changed my life in an
outpatient program, basic interpersonal skills, interpersonal effectiveness, stress management, to
(17:10):
stress tolerance, all of these things that are really important
in all aspects of business. So I went to see
every healer in the history of the world. Amy, I
went to see you know, Balinese uh medicine men, to
like Indian chiefs, to psychis, to mirror ball, to god
(17:32):
knows where. And I felt really fortunate at that point
to be able to afford a lot of this because
it was really expensive. And so I took notes along
the way, and I didn't necessarily expect it to turn
into a book, but um, I felt compelled to be like, Okay, everybody,
this is the cheek code if you don't have the
money to do all of these therapies. Here's the cliff
(17:55):
notes version of that. So I really, um yeah, I
took a year in half probably and just soaked all
of the woo woo stuff that I could possibly soak
up and tried to turn it into an action plan.
You know, my brain works in like steps and metrics
(18:16):
and measuring too, metrics and all of these types of things,
and so um, so yeah, I went on a journey
to figure out how to do that. What was that moment, Like,
I think so many people, especially now, are suffering from
mental health issues. What was the precipitating moment for you
that said, Okay, like enough is enough. I'm I'm going
into psychiatric word. This isn't just normal stress. I thought
(18:40):
a lot about this question, and I have a line
in Becoming Superwoman where I talk about this. Um that's
one of my favorite lines in the book. It says
that my breakdown wasn't a spontaneous combustion precipitated by a
single event, but a lifetime of smoldering emperors that finally
caught fire and incinerated everything in its path. And I
(19:03):
think it really was that I was just finishing up
my second book tour, and when I went out to
do my third, I had a team that was like,
are you okay, because like the second one created all
this stuff, And I was like, it wasn't the book,
it wasn't this one thing. It was this whole lifetime
(19:24):
of self hate and self neglect. And I had a
lot of still imposter syndrome now about talking about how
to you know, indulge in self care, because I was like,
I'm no expert in this. I'm more of an expert
in self harm or self hatred than self care and
(19:44):
self love. And that's what made me hopefully a good
person to talk about it, because I know what it
was like, you know, I know what um that darkness
was like. I know what it's like to have many
rounds in the ring with darkness. And I also know
what it's like to be broke and live on a
brown rice and beans diet because it felt fancier than roman.
What do you hope that your life looks like when
(20:06):
you're in your seventies? What do you hope your career
looks like? I love that, um. Sometimes I talk to
my old lady self. UM. I have a lot of
uh dialogues with myself, my younger self, my older self.
I think my younger self would finally be proud of me.
I kind of lost my way a little bit, um
and and focused on some of the things that you know,
(20:28):
perhaps she wouldn't have loved. And I think my old
lady self, UM, I would I love for her to
have the um, the financial freedom and you know, the
ability to not only pursue projects she loves. But I
(20:48):
have no regrets. On her death bed, I think about
my death bed a lot. You know, the the word
that Chris Pan does the my Intent bracelets where you
put like the word on the circle. I've often put
time when then I tattooed that, so then I stopped
putting that. But then deathbed because they think about, you
(21:08):
know what, am I going to regret not being brave
enough to do? So what was the moment when you
felt like, Okay, I'm healed, I'm ready for the next
chapter of my life. I don't think you're every necessarily healed.
I actually wrote an epilogue to my last book where
I felt like I was on the verge of another
(21:29):
breakdown right in the precipice of the launch of the book,
and I actually delayed it six months, which my former
self would have never imagined doing. And I said, you know,
balance can be used as a noun and a verb,
and often in this discussion we use it as a noun,
like I found balance. It's there, I'm good. And I
(21:50):
think for me, it's been helpful to use it as
a verb because it's something that's constantly in motion. It's
something you constantly have to work on and cultivate. So
I think that for me, remembering that balance and chaos coexists.
They have to coexist because sometimes again in a habit
even still where I'll get back to that balance or
(22:12):
self care stuff like after this, and um, you know,
I think that there's never an after this for me
realizing that you have to be in both. In fact,
both have to coexist to have the other. And so
it's a lifelong journey. I think I'm always going to
be a reader of my um my third book, which
(22:35):
is crazy because I'm the writer, but also I think
a lifelong reader. And now a quick break. Are you
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(22:58):
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learn more at Join the W Marketplace dot com. Where
does your fiance Joe fit into this timeline? He and
(23:18):
I met over the pandemic I moved from New York
to l A. I drove by myself, and I didn't
know that I would end up back in l A.
I grew up in l A and I lived in
ten cities. UM since then it always felt like home
to me. So I ended up getting back here and
(23:38):
UM connected with a matchmaker named Talia Goldstein who's the
founder of three Day role UM. And so she and
I had always tried to connect over the years, um,
you know, when I was in between relationships, and we
never did. So she sent me an email and I
jumped on the phone with her and she's like, you know,
I think I have somebody for you. What's up? And
(24:00):
at that point I got had a lot of clarity
about what I was looking for, Like I needed to
have my right handed wedding ring before I had my
left handed one and have that most important relationship first,
which I did, and found a lot of clarity about
what I was looking for and who I was. And
so I just was super real with Talia and I
(24:21):
was like, here's where I'm at. And she's like, well,
I don't think you're right for this guy, but I'll
put you in the database and if there's a guy
that meets your criteria, I'll call you and what do
you think? I said, why do you think I'm not
right for the guy? Yeah? Or I just said, I'm
not a database girl, and I would like somebody to
meet my criteria versus the other way around. So I
(24:44):
had no intention of joining this service, but whatever it is,
on principle, I'm going to feel good about this conversation
if I get off not being in a database waiting
to meet somebody else's criteria, but the other way around.
And oftentimes men join these services as clients. Although Ali
Webb had just met her I don't know fiance yet
at the time through Talia, and she was a member,
(25:07):
and so I thought, okay, she's like a boss bitch whisperer.
She gets it. And so I joined with very low expectations.
And um, you know, there are only a couple of
truisms on Wall Street and life by low cell high,
and it's better to beat low expectations, and um, and
very low expectations for it. And um, the first person
(25:32):
they introduced me to, they said, well, we actually have
he's not a client, that he was an early investor
in three Day Roll and he was actually the only
male investor who invested in Talia while she was pregnant fundraising,
and he's always rejected all of the offers that we've
put before him, I guess. And but he's really excited
(25:54):
about you, and I know it's that was Joe, my
now fiance. UM, but he I always joke with him
that he invested in the company to have the right
of first refusal on all the best ladies. But of course, yeah,
we met. Our first date was at Neptune's net Um.
There was nothing to do during quarantine, so we ended
(26:15):
up talking a lot, and um, he came up with
this little ruse that I found out later that he
needed to move really quickly. And I had moved from
New York and love housing everything. If all else fails,
I would be an interior designer and I just love
housing porn noble varieties, and so I had like compass
(26:37):
folders ready to go, and he's like, well, you know,
maybe you can show me some of the options that
you had in there, and still liked, maybe you can
help me, and I was like, sure, no problem, um,
and I did. And I later find out he didn't
really need to move, but he wanted to lock it down,
and so he was like, well, take a key or whatever,
(27:00):
and you know, come and go. And then we looked
at this first place we looked at, which is the
place we live in now. He was like, no, you
know what, just move in with me. And so I
had a place that I love, love, loved um that
was like my bachelorette pad that I actually lived next
to the actual bachelorette. This was a very funny story too.
(27:21):
When I first moved in, I was sitting outside and
she was so sweet and got my postmates or something,
and I was like, yeah, this is my bacherette pad.
Like I'm basically going to just lean into the idea
that I was put on this planet to help women
with money and not get married and have kids and
that's all good. And she's like, do you know who
I am? And I'm like, I don't know. You're my neighbor.
(27:41):
And she's like, I am the Bachelorette and I'm like,
I've never seen the show, not one, not ever. And
I was like, oh, that's crazy. You're Southern and like
you sound so you know, like you want the guy
to be Chivalris and all these things. So if the
the bachelor proposes to the bachelorette or whatever on the show.
(28:04):
Is it the opposite on the Bachelorette? Like, do you
propose to the guy? I had no idea, I was
so good, but yeah, I ended up leaving that place
and we moved together and he proposed probably less than
a year later. Is this your first engagement? It is?
So does it bring up all sorts of like financial
(28:25):
merging issues for you know, I mean we're very financially
nerdy family. He's a fintech entrepreneur and an anti poverty
advocate and thinks about many issues a lot, and we
both had very similar upbringings. Actually both of our homes
um were foreclosed on when we were a little which
(28:46):
had a huge impact on our lives um and contributed
to our desire to want to help others. It really
comes from the most honest place within me that, you know,
I want to teach my former self, which she didn't know.
And now that I you know, got beyond the red
velvet ropes of Wall Street that I never thought I would,
I'm like, oh, I want to tell you guys all
(29:08):
the things. And so he feels very similarly, and so, yeah,
having financial discussions at this point. You know, is definitely
a much easier I want to have. But a lot
of couples do fight and separate because of money more
than anything else. All right, well we are going to
go to our speed around and now we're just going
(29:30):
to ask you a few quick questions and you can
give us quick answers aimed. You want to start? Yes,
what book are you reading now? The Art of Stillness?
What is the last vacation you tech to Hawaii over
the holidays? Who leaves you star struck? Janet yelling? It's
(29:52):
a good answer issues. You know, you've made these Tracy
Flick jokes and you present as very perfect. What's the
last imperfect thing that you did? I put my lash
on incorrectly because there was a shooting unfortunately on the
(30:15):
four oh five today and so the Glam team couldn't come,
and so I had half of my lash on um
as of one hour ago. All right, Well, Lou Burns
has been listening and he always comes in at the
end with a male perspective, and often the sharpest perspective,
So umlu take it away. So there was something you
(30:37):
mentioned about about home interior decorating, and I thought about
the many roles you play in life, and um, you know,
I've done quite a few things. So what role in
your life do you enjoy the most. Well, when you
bring up home design and work, if I read between
the lines, I do really enjoy making a few a
(31:00):
full home. I feel like a boss bitch at work,
but I actually really like being sort of in my
feminine energy at home. And that's not for everybody. But
we have a show on my first podcast, touch Money,
where we debated who plays who pays on a first date,
and my producer just assume that Jason, my co host,
(31:22):
would say that the man should pay, and then I
would say split And I was like, hell, no, I'm
not a touching no, no, no, And it's not because
I can't pay, It's because I don't want to. So yeah,
I do the I did the fake reach a lot
proudly because I think that there's the difference between needing
(31:44):
somebody and wanting someone. And I really enjoyed that role
in my life now, which is odd I never thought
I would even have that role. What would you like
to be doing that you're that door right now. I
would really like to start a family. Um, that's uh,
it's harder. Who knew back in the day, Oh my goodness,
we thought we could be pregnant like at any day
(32:06):
of the month, like if no matter what, and uh,
it's it's harder than you think. So that's a role
that I'm excited to find somehow. One day, Amy Nicole
makes me want to save money and like really dig
into my finances in a deeper way. She really does.
And the thing is, like, I love how she walks
(32:29):
this line of being like really pragmatic and I feel
like conservative about money with the talking about it in
a really fun way, which I think is one of
the hardest hurdles for people because money is scary to
talk about. Yeah, I agree. Her writing is very straightforward
but fun, Like it's hard to make a finance books fun,
but she manages to do that. And I also, I mean,
our personal story is one of a lot of struggle,
(32:52):
and it's quite inspiring. Even just the fact that now
she you know, found true love and and it's rewriting
a new chapter of her life is really inspirational. I
think it really is. I think I mean to hear
a woman who has gone through such hard childhood put
all of these pieces together and not only succeed professionally,
(33:12):
but personally is pretty amazing. Thanks for listening to What's
Her Story with Sam and Amy. We would appreciate it
if you leave a review wherever you get your podcasts,
and of course, connect with us on social media at
What's Her Story podcast. What's Her Story with Sam and
Amy is powered by my company, The Riveter at the
(33:33):
Riveter dot c O and Sam's company, park Place Payments
at park place Payments dot com. Thanks to our producer
Stacy Para and our male perspective Blue Burns
Hosts And Creators
Samantha Ettus
Amy Nelson
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