March 17, 2022 • 38 mins
Suzanne Lerner is the President and CEO of Michael Stars, the fashion essentials company she co-founded with her late husband. She is an activist and philanthropist devoted to running a socially responsible business. Suzanne is a board member of the Ms. Foundation for Women.
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
I'm Sam Edis and I'm Amy Nelson. Welcome to What's
Her Story? With Sam and Amy. This is a show
about the world's most remarkable women, their professional and personal journeys. Together,
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(00:30):
Susanne Learner is the president and CEO of Michael Stars,
the fashion essentialist company she co founded with her late husband.
She's an activist and a philanthropist devoted to running a
socially responsible business, and she's been doing it for decades,
far before it was cool. Susanne is also a board
member of the MS Foundation for Women. Who was Susanne
(00:54):
Larner before Michael Stars was built. That is a long story.
I grew up in a in a nice little suburb
that my parents could not afford in Chicago, and my
dad was a traveling salesman, so he would be gone
from Monday morning to Friday night. I was a latch
key kid with my two older brothers, and my mom
(01:15):
was a bookkeeper, but I used to help my dad
on weekends, so he sold jewelry and I loved being
with him, you know, checking the invoices and and sorting
cards and I just love that kind of thing. So
I just kind of grew up with these entrepreneurs. Even
though they weren't successful, they had that entrepreneur of spirit.
And then in high school, I got involved in the
(01:37):
political movements because it was anti war movement, social justice,
racial justice. Growing up in Chicago, this incredible movement. So
I started doing things like I was the type of
for the underground newspaper, and I went to demonstrations and
I was kicked out of school for wearing blue jeans
because at that time you could not wear blue jeans school.
(01:58):
So between that and demonstration and then my senior year
of high school, I decided to bus to a racially
integrated high school because I grew up in a high
school that had no integration at all. And there was
a program called Operation Wing Spread and I was able
to get on it. And this is after Chairman Fred
Hampton the Black Panthers was was murdered a month later
(02:18):
and I said to my parents, I'm going, and they
just could not stop me. They always really helped me
get to where I was going. They never really said no.
I think I was a very good salesman. Really, even
in that day, I could convince people. So I went
to the high school and I realized what the world
was like for other people. So I went to university
and dropped out and worked as a secretary. So I
(02:42):
had about a couple of years working for different companies.
Even in high school, I was like a Kelly girl,
and uh. I saved my money and I went off
to Europe by myself when I was twenty one and
spent three months there and realized I wanted to do
more traveling. So came back to Chicago, went to school,
and went off again, and I realized I really wanted
(03:03):
to see the world. So I saved my money again,
and I met an Australian guy in Greece one summer,
and I ended up going to school in France, and
then I moved to Australia on a fiancee's visa so
I could get a visa and worked there. And then
I traveled for two years overland, all through Indonesia, Thailand, Nepal,
(03:26):
India and experienced life so um. One day in New Delhi,
I wandered into a shop with a woman named Santo Sharma,
and I was kind of blown away because it was
a woman who owned an import export business. And we
started talking and we became friends, and I went every day,
and then she introduced me to some Americans and British
(03:50):
people who wanted to start a clothing company. And I
had not done that. I mean, I had been on
like the teen board for a department store, but I
had loved seventeen magazin Sean always was dealing with hand
me downs, but being able to put together outfits, you know,
embroidering blue jeans and in knitting sweaters. So I decided
to do it. And I had no idea what I
(04:12):
was doing. None of us had any idea. The designer
was British and she lived in Kabba, Afghanistan, making these
beautiful dresses. And we took an old Mercedes and we
drove up to Afghanistan. I remembers in between two wars,
and I ended up in Los Angeles with one of
the partners who was here Afghanistan and India to l
(04:34):
A like how did you get to l A? So
Roger Wong, who was my part one of the partners
had a art gallery here and he in this French
American named Alan, who had the money. We're friends and
we're importing beautiful jewelry, silver jewelry and sweaters from Morocco.
And so he called Roger. His car had broken down.
(04:54):
He said, Roger, I need a Mercedes engine. Roger bought
the engine, took it on a plane New Delhi, and
we all met and we said, we think we can
do this company. And Allen had the money, Margaret had
the designs, and Roger knew one person in the clothing business.
So I went home into Chicago, packed my trunk and
(05:16):
I moved to l A. And we started by talking
to this woman Lee that her name was Lee Walzac,
just coming back to me, and she rapped Casherrell and
she helped us so much with understanding the business. And
in those days, there were these big, big, big books
that had every single specialty store in the country, and
we just had we were so we were waiting for
(05:37):
our samples. We were getting ready to start. We we
you know, had our little business license. And then Margaret
and Allen broke up. They were boyfriend and girlfriend and
Roger and I then said, okay, now what are we
gonna do well. The prior to leaving, I had met
my plane had been delayed, and I ended up sharing
(05:58):
a took took back to New Delhi with this Italian
guy who said, I know these people in Old Delhi.
And we went into the shop and it was this
amazing company called Sader Silk, and they were making things
for Fia Rucci and all the Italian brands, and they
were very friendly, and I was very friendly and I
bought some things. So I said to Roger, I remember
(06:19):
these people. I'm going to send him a letter, and
I think you should just go back there and get samples.
So Roger took out his credit card, we put my
ticket on it, I got on a plane. I showed
up on their doorstep and they went, Susie, we just
got your letter this morning. We're happy to see you,
but we don't do business with Americans because we don't
(06:41):
trust them. And by the end of the day they said,
we're giving you a sample line and you just have
to pay for it. And so I got a sample line,
and I came back to Los Angeles and we called
the line Susie Wong for me and Roger, and we
started going out. You know, in those days there was
big specialty stores like Contemplate Casuals and Judy's and Bullets
(07:04):
was here. There were so many department stores and you
could wander in on a Friday on the open by
date and they would just write orders. Business was so
amazing in the late seventies. So we got orders, and um,
I called my parents and I said, you did not
pay for my college. And I knew they didn't have
a lot of money, and I said, I know I'm
(07:25):
going to be successful. I need to borrow money. I
want to borrow here's the orders, and I want to
have money to pay for the orders. And they lent
me money. They lent me fifteen thousand dollars. So we
got the orders and I went back to India to
check production and we shipped it and we were making
some money. And then the end of the year there
(07:49):
was always quota with customs. You know, you could only
bring in a certain amount of goods into America from
a foreign country. And quota closed in November and I
hit We had a shipment sitting at the airport, so
it was like the end of the road. But what
we did was is when it cleared. I took the
goods in and then we went out again and resold them.
(08:10):
And I was packing boxes in my apartment, typing, typing invoices,
you know, four shirts, four little shirts in a box
with a separate invoice, you know, hundreds and hundreds and hundreds.
But eventually it failed and we just could not do it. Well,
did you pay your parents back? That's the big question
in many many ways, but not that way. Starting a
business is really hard. Most businesses do fail. What in
(08:32):
you felt like you could call your parents and say, like,
I know I'm going to be successful, Like a lot
of young women don't say things like that. Yeah, and
especially I think the days I was in I was
a feminist and I felt I was powerful to accomplish things,
and I knew it wasn't going to be in regular
kind of things that women typically were doing in those days.
(08:55):
And uh, I think when you're have no choice, you
pick yourself up and you do things that you wouldn't
typically do. Because I knew what it meant from my
parents to say yes today, I understood um what it was,
and I just I was really lucky because they believed
in me. So what happened after where we left off.
(09:15):
So UM, I ended up getting jobs and UM first
job was at a little import company from India, and
I did everything I you know, I checked the bills
of lady. I would sit in the telex and write orders.
I was assistant to the owners. But I always felt
like I was failing up because I got fired from
that job. And I think the the owner's wife didn't
(09:37):
really like me, and I didn't quite understand that tension
sometimes between women and what was happening. And I think
I was powerful and I had an opinion and I
probably stated it and she might not have wanted to
hear it. So I moved to other companies. UM. And
then I moved to a company called Disco Jeans, Disco
and Law Disco Jeans, and I would sit there with
(09:58):
allocation of things, this high of orders and have to
decide who was getting shipped. Um, we have lots of
sales reps. I worked for two male sales managers. And
just last month I linked in with my old owner,
the owner of the company, and I said, do you
remember me? He said, blue eyes, curly hair, and respectfully aggressive. Oh.
(10:21):
I love that. That's actually my favorite new term. Respectfully aggressive.
This is amazing. Respectfully, how do people perceive you? Like,
how did people perceive you when you were in your
twenties and how you were doing things. See, you've always
been a huge salesperson. I mean since high school with
your dad, You've always been a salesperson. And I don't
(10:42):
think most people think of a designer as a salesperson.
And I don't think of myself as that. I I
see incredible salespeople, and I don't think that's it. I
think I believe in my product, and I have passion
and I'm nice. I think people weren't used to it. Actually,
a couple of weeks ago, my Nordstrom buyer, when we
first had Michael Stars, she told a story. She's a
(11:05):
black woman, and she said, you know, Susanne, you are
always nice to me. Just I would walk into a
showroom with twelve other Nordstrom buyers and people wouldn't look
at me, people wouldn't speak to me. And she said,
I had the biggest pen, I could write the biggest orders.
But she said there was something there. And so when
I came to her with the T shirts, she said,
(11:27):
I blough from you because of who you were, and
I didn't even know about the T shirts, but I
bloffed you because of the type of person you were,
and I had never she never told me that we've
been friends for thirty five years and I never heard
that story. So you know, it's really good. Always think that.
I mean, it always comes back to all your relationships
in your networking well. But I mean, I think that's
(11:47):
something that people don't talk enough about in business because
we're supposed to be like hard and fierce and everything,
but just being a good, kind person, Like, do you
think that's one of the things that had had defined
your career? I think so. I think so. I think
that everybody always knows me as being honest. I mean, listen,
I can be tough when there's a lot of things
in the plate. I can be frustrated. I sometimes get
(12:08):
negative with people, and I kicked myself in the end.
I learned now to be able to apologize and talk
to them about it and explain the reasons why and
try to improve always. But I think I've ended up
being straight, a kind, honest but kind. I think you
always have to do that as a person sitting next
to you that's doing the task, whether they're failing or achieving,
(12:29):
and it's still a human being. And now a quick break.
So how did you launch Michael Stars? Well, from like
for about four or five years, I had grown my
two D square foot showroom to a three D fifty
square foot showroom and I ended up taking on a partner.
That particular week that Michael walked in my showroom. And
(12:52):
he walked in and he at this South African accent.
I kind of had met him before through one of
my manufacturers, and and um, he came in with the
line of Polly cotton sweatshirt shoulder padded printed with sweatshirts,
and the sweatshirts were really super ugly and shoulder pads
had just gone out of style, which I knew, but
(13:13):
the designs are really super cute. And I was single.
I had broken up with my boyfriend about six months before,
and I was determined to never be with anybody again,
and I was just so attracted to him. He was handsome,
which kind of made it easier and interesting. So after
three days of thinking about representing the line, I waited
(13:37):
until Sunday night. I remember this call. I was so
nervous because he was very convincing and I turned down
the line and asked him out in a date and
he was like, wait a minute, I don't remember what
you look like, and nobody turns me and just could
not understand it, and he said okay, and so we
(13:59):
made a date for two days later and we had
dinner and a bottle of wine and that was it.
And a week later he showed up with the hand
painted designs on T shirts and I said that I
can sell. And that's when we started. He had second
mortgaged his home. So I was the sales part and
(14:20):
marketing and designing, and he was the marketing and running
the business. And uh, it was there. It was there
every minute of our lives. And it was already called
Michael Stars. At that point it was called Michael Stars.
The original artist was a man named John Stars, who
was a volleyball playing her most of each resident that
used to sell them at little fairs, and Michael used
(14:42):
to buy them and bring him. He had a home
in Miconos, used to go to Miconos a couple of
times a year and his friends would He'd give them
away to his friends because everybody wanted them. So we
knew we had something, and I put him up. I
put him up in the showroom. Remember this little baby
chew room and Fred Siegel, Bloomingdale, Barney's all walked into
(15:02):
my door and said, we want to buy those. How
do you think they knew where your door was? Those days,
people just wandered the halls and they kind of look
they were looking for interesting new things. In those days,
it wasn't as difficult, I think as nowadays, because people
don't do those kind of things. Even the trade shows.
There's fewer people walking around, there's fewer there's fewer stores
to sell to. What's the process today? Start a website?
(15:25):
I mean in terms of marketing, Start a website, get
some photos done, send an email, hope somebody's gonna look.
Use your networking. I use LinkedIn all the time. I
highly recommended. I will just reach out to people. So
you mentioned you know sustainability, and I think you've really
been a model as a leader in so many ways,
but one of them is that you've always you've always
(15:48):
included social impact and everything you've done very openly, long
before many CEOs would touch anything. How did you navigate
that we would all be charitable ourselves personally? Michael used
to read something in the newspaper. He cut it out
and sent a check, so it was it's been always
twenty years now. We started the foundation because we wanted
(16:11):
to give to organizations that my customers would care about.
And so basically it's like women and girls. I cared
about voting rights and um helping women change their communities
through government. So I was. I used to read Reclear,
you know, that magazine had was most political fashion magazine
(16:31):
out there at the time, and I found a little
clipping of an organization called Women Thrive. Women Thrive helped
train women in advocacy so they as a group could
get together and go to their governments and their towns
and their villages and make change. And that just appealed
to me so much. So I wrote them a letter,
I sent them a little check, and when I went
(16:51):
to Washington for another event, I called them up and said,
I'd really love to meet with you, and the woman
met me for breakfast. I don't know what I was doing.
I'd never said on a board. I didn't know anything,
and she said she started talking to me and I
started learning, and so later they offered me a position
on the board, and I thought, why do you want me.
I own a small company. I don't have the credentials,
(17:14):
and they said, that's why we want you, because you
have a real voice. And so that was my start
sitting on nonprofit boards, and through that and the foundation,
we started giving more and more grants strictly to grassroots
women's groups. We didn't go for the big, big organizations.
They have their own way of fundraising. We wanted to
go where our money had the most impact. Most fashion
(17:36):
companies are like churn and burn right. They come out
with a splash and then they disappear. One thing that
makes Michael Starr's unique is that you've had such staying
power and at the same time, you've never maybe at
one point you were the sexy object, you know, the sexy,
shiny object, but you've always just been a staple. Is
(17:56):
that part of your strategy or was that accidental. I
feel like we always tried to do things that were
on trend, that would last a long time, that was
a staple, and not things that were really trendy. I
think though, for the most part, it's because we were
a family owned company, and when I would see that
one product, like our our screen printed T shirts, nobody
(18:20):
wanted him. After a couple of years, we went to
one of our shows. I said, Michael, they're not nobody
wants them anymore. Put the booth up, and so we
had a little five by ten booth with that. And
in the meantime, I had been doing garment die T
shirts with French ribbon roses on it with my partner,
and I said, why don't we just do garment die
T shirts because we have customers asking for them. So
we had a little a ten by ten booth with those.
(18:42):
We got like five orders for the printed T shirts,
and everybody wanted the solid T shirts. So I think
over the years I really had the gift of knowing
what people want and what's going to be next. So
we've gone through a lot of transitions, you know, because
then we created our shiny object, the Shine T shirt,
which in the nine these kind of blew us up,
and our one size idea. I had a blue Shine
(19:04):
T shirt. Everybody has a Shine T shirt story, every
single person I meet. Now it's so funny to hear
these stories, and I'm telling you, they're all happy. My
first date, my first thing in college. I couldn't afford it,
and my mother finally I was able to afford it.
I said, do you still have it? Now? Their daughters
are taking them out of their closets. It's really it's
(19:26):
really wonderful to see it. What is advice you would
give to a younger woman kind of starting out or
a woman in her forties wants to pivot had You've
got to find what you're passionate about. I think a
lot of people were probably careers they really weren't happy
in and how to deal with especially these women in
thirties and forties that are having to redefine themselves and
(19:46):
what to do. So I think they just have to
go and search for it a bit. But it takes work,
and I think using again your networks of people who
care like you care, you can find something. And I
know there's so many women that lost their businesses. We know,
I mean, what's the percentage? I mean there was a huge,
huge failure of so many women, and how do we
(20:09):
get those women back into the workforce and caring about things.
We were very lucky at Michael Stars. We um had
a furlowsom people, but we started making masks immediately and
everybody wanted casual clothing work from home. Clothing. So our
business actually exploded, and I had been self funding the
business for five years before. I didn't want venture capital money.
I wanted of Michael Stars as a woman owned company.
(20:31):
I just wouldn't do it, and that kind of helped
us survive that and be able to bring in people
who cared, who were committed, who are costly committed to
the mission of Michael Stars. Like what we felt about
women in the world inequality, I wanted women like that
working for me. And I have to say, we have
so many people that have worked for us for so
(20:51):
long they are now senior managers, directors, assistant managers of
a warehouse. As woman, she's now my director of all
my warehouses. People have become controllers from being accounts payable.
I think you've got it. You've got it almost interview
the company you want to work for as much as
I'm interviewing you. You have to make sure it's the
(21:12):
right fit. And now a quick break, Suzanne. I know
that you and your husband ran the company together for
so long and then he passed away. What was that
like for you, both personally and professionally. It was a
long road. He was sick and we didn't tell a soul.
(21:35):
He didn't want anybody to know, and then it was
getting more obvious. So I had that point four national
show rooms and we incorporated into Michael Stars, and I
joined the company officially full time, integrating everything and was
going to work every day. And he didn't want to.
He wasn't as enthusiastic about it. He was happy staying home.
(21:59):
We had just adopted a dog, and um, he hung out,
he started painting and left more to me. You know,
we were the like dynamic duo and if we weren't
loving each other, we were fighting each other. And you know,
it's the third person in the bed. So it was
a big change for me because at night when we
used to play scrabble all night long and talk about
things and books and reading and traveling and spending time
(22:20):
in Greece, he would he was going to bed early.
So I had to get used to actually being by
myself because I was always the one traveling, he was
always the one home. So we finally told people, and um,
you know, when he passed away, it was very difficult.
It was expected, so I knew that, but I didn't
understand what it meant. After being together thirty years but
(22:43):
I what was I going to do? I had to
go to work. I had to be there for everybody there.
We considered the company our family. Twice we had big
offers to sell and we just didn't want to sell.
We we didn't want that money. We wanted our family
and our business. So I would get up five o'clock
every more name and go off on the patio with
a coffee. And so many people wrote to me and
(23:05):
I would sit there and cry and read emails and
post from Facebook and find old photos and um, I
would just get up and go to work. And UM,
I knew that was something that Michael wanted me to
do because we believed in it so much. And it
(23:27):
was hard because people were Michael was a very big presence,
huge personality, and I don't think people trusted me. They
didn't really know me. They didn't know my background, they
didn't know the years I had worked for other companies.
I mean, Michael had been an entrepreneur, he never had
any background, so they didn't know all the guidance he
was getting from behind with me. And the amount of
(23:47):
times I've had where I pushed my agenda and pushed
what I believe so much and I would. That's the
other thing. Just keep pushing for what you believe. I
would keep doing until he finally warmed down and he
agreed to to something. But there were a lot of
silos at the company, A lot of people that might
have resented me, didn't think I. I thought I was
going to fail, and I just kept working at it
(24:11):
every day and trying to break down the barriers and
getting people to talk to each other and redefining and
re looking at the company as a new, shiny object
of what we could do to make it new again.
Did you get rid of those people who were in
the silos or did you convert them into Suzanne Learner fans? Well,
I I converted most people. There were a couple that
(24:31):
I know during the years and wanted me to get
wanted to fire me because I think they wanted the power.
And so those people ended up leaving. And I had
to be strong, you know, because you have to speak
up for yourself. You have to feel empowered to be
able to deal with that. And you know you can't
deal with it angry. You gotta you gotta figure out
your strategy for doing it. So no, we we had
(24:54):
a we had a great crew that are still many
people are still with us, and you know Michael, I
mean psychics. I'm going to talk about psychists for a second.
I'd go to Greece. We have a home there and
I'd sit in my bedroom and Michael had a hammock
he he loved being in and I always put it up.
And I was sitting there and looking out the window
and literally it was just moving back and forth. There
(25:15):
was no wind, just moving back and forth. So then
I just went to a psychic and he was there,
and I, you know, I felt very uh not just
warm and fuzzy, but that I know he's there. I know,
I know he's always around. And so I don't really
believe in heaven in hell, but um, I believe that
(25:36):
people stay with you. Their spirit stays with you, their
energy stays with you. And so I think I don't
miss him as much as I might have if I
hadn't had those experiences, because he's there, his niece, photos up,
big photos up in the warehouse. Everybody talks about Michael, um,
everybody thinks about him. He's really the core of the company.
(25:59):
Before he left, before he passed away, did you talk
with him about what the transition would be like at
the company. He when he handed me the reins, he
knew that I would be a good and you know,
at the same time, I was going out more doing
a little bit more public speaking. Why we hadn't even
(26:19):
doing any public speaking about what I believed and what
I wanted to do. And I was encouraged. And actually
the night before he died and we didn't know he
was in hospice, but he was home step up. It
offered me an opportunity to speak on a panel and
I said I can't do this, and he said, you go,
you go, you go. And it was the first time
(26:39):
I spoke with anybody. And I came home and he
died the next day. And I feel like he waited
for me, like he believed in me, and he wanted
what was best for me. When I used to go
out to town places to like my board meetings, he
wouldn't tell me this. He'd always argue with me. I'd
never tell him until the night before that I was
actually leaving, because he'd always get upset that I was leaving.
(27:02):
But my my friends would say, oh, he said, oh,
Susie is out saving the world. She's out of town
doing the things. Oh, she really believed in in what
I believed in and encouraged me in many ways, but
there was no big transition plan. What do you do
at night now now that he's not there, Well, I'm
probably on zoom calls and working and doing something until
(27:24):
probably about eight o'clock at night, and uh, then it's
trying to make something healthy, binging the latest show playing. Oh,
I do play Spider scroup, I do play Spider. It's terrible.
It's Spider solid here, do not start. One of my
friends started and yelled at me the next month, saying
I can't get off of it. So it kind of
(27:47):
it's almost like my meditation. I mean, I do my
plots in my yoga. That's so funny, Susan, because I
always say that my my near time spelling bee is
my meditation. Well, I have to say that's probably a
lot better for your mind learning new words there, which
is just so many less. But you know, I'm doing
so many things between my activism and you know, and
(28:10):
running the company, and and and friendships and trying to
change the world and getting equal rights to memo passed,
and there's so much going on that I actually have
to find that break to do nothing. And I am
do not have children like you too, So I I'm
lucky enough to have that thing. It's just me and
my dog. And don't you have stepchildren? I have two
(28:32):
stepchildren and I have two grandchildren. And are you involved
in their lives? I am? I am. Sometimes it's not easy, No,
I feel they have resentments that the kids, the step
kids definitely have resentments. And I hope that one day
they'll figure it out. But I'm not holding my breath,
And you know what, it's their life. They have to
(28:52):
decide and understand who I am for them, and I'm
hoping one day they'll they'll figure it out. And I
have so many friends, and I really do feel like
friends and companions are your family. They really are. And
I have a wonderful brother, anna, niece and nephew and
they've got kids. And I'm like, Shoes Shoe, I show up.
(29:14):
You know. Those FaceTime calls every week are so great.
I just saw him last weekend. They're in New York
and I welcome to Dory Shoes you so I know
you have you can build families wherever. Speaking of so
much Ado, what is next for Michael Starters. I mean,
where do you hope to bring the brand? If someone
you know came to your door tomorrow and tried to
buy the brand from you, would you sell it? How
(29:37):
are you thinking about that? I'm a proponent of keeping
your company's private. I've seen so many brands, so many
brands that are no longer relevant. They're just a licensed
brand because they got off the founder got offered a
lot of money. They take it, they have a contract.
They usually stay about a year before they're either kicked
out or the company has changed so much the product
(30:00):
becomes less relevant. Somebody's got to pay back the VC,
somebody's got to pay back the future profits. So the
quality suffers and the pricing goes up and they lose
their way. And I don't want that to happen with
Michael Stars. It's just something about this company that's so special.
So I'll probably end up doing an employee share and
(30:21):
do something different. Um, we have wonderful new people that
have come on board that are helping me out now
or I don't have to sit in the design room
and fix things. You know, they're they're now they're helping product.
We have a wonderful marketing team, um great art director.
And so my plans are to help the community of
Michael Stars learn more about actionable items that they can
(30:44):
do in the world to change the world, because gender
equality for me is really important as racial equality. And
a lot of my customers don't have time to think
about where to go, what to do, how to get involved.
They're very busy lives, and I want to give them
that opportunity to learn and share about things. Even if
they just share it on a like, I want them
(31:06):
to share it with their friends for more and more
people to know about what we need to do in
this world to really have full purity. And so that's
my big mission and I'm Michael Stars. I could have
closed it and business was kind of not great when
Michael passed away, and I just pushed my own money.
I took my savings and I said, I'm going to
make this happen. I believe in this brand, and my
(31:26):
c p A and my board and people who worked
for me believed in me, and from them believing in me,
I was able to go forward into the world and
just do what I had to do. And I invested
a lot of money back in the business. But I
just knew that it's something more important. It's it's not
so tangible, and now I have to stay in the
last two years business is phenomenal. So now I'm my
(31:49):
role this year is to incorporate my vision and who
I am into the brand. All right, well, we're gonna
go to our speed around now, Suzanne, where we're going
to ask Tess a few questions and you can give
us quick answers. What are you reading. I just finished
a book by Twohrry Coates called The Water Dancer. It
is one of the more beautiful books I've ever read
in my life, so I highly recommend it, and I'm
(32:13):
going to start reading. I try to read a fiction
in a nonfiction book at the same time. And I've
got a pile of books that I've collected over COVID
that i want to read. But um, I just got
a friend of mine just gave me Patrice Colorea's new
book that's about twelve Ways that you kind of you
can change the world because she dressed wrote incredible book
about her upbringing in California, and she's really an icon
(32:33):
for me. So that's the next book I'm reading. I'm
reading a lot from African American authors. I want to
understand more. You know, I was white privileg I didn't
think I was privileged, but I was definitely white privileged.
And understanding the world in a different way is for
me really important. You mentioned binge watching shows. What are
you binging right now? Oh? The Guilded Age, which I
(32:57):
really love. I love Julian Fellas and and Pammy and Tommy.
A friend of mine produced it, and actually it's really
good and it really talks about a woman's role in
those days. And she was the one who got all
the pressure. He he got nothing. So it was really
interesting how dynamics of women and feminism and culture and
sexuality and pornography, UM, and what it was like in
(33:19):
those days and what she went through really different. Now
when you travel again abroad, where is the first place
you're going? I mean, I really want to go back
to India again. I haven't been there in years. But
you know, I'm a little fearful about the changes that
have happened in the world since I've gone um and
haven't traveled as much. And you know, Haiti, I've been
going to Haiti since the earthquake, and it's like a
(33:40):
second home, and their political problems are so bad that
I haven't been able to go there either. If you
had to put all of your money into one cause
I know you're involved in so many, what would that
one causby is a terrible question. And to ask me,
(34:01):
I am giving money. I you have no idea how
much money I give up. I mean, it's not the
amount of money, it's the amount of I know. But
that's why. That's why you're the only guest I've ever
asked this to Suzanne, because you're always giving your money away.
For me, it's supporting women in whatever way. So I'm
kind of getting around this. You know, I'm supporting women
(34:22):
of color, grassroots movement building. I really do believe that
the world's going to change from the bottom up, and
so anything that I can do to create equality, purity,
and power in women are the causes that I give
to all Right, Well, lou Burns has been listening to
our conversation this whole time, and he is joining us
(34:43):
with the male perspective because of who you are, and
you have a huge following. Um, if you could change
anything that's happening right now, the outcome of it, what
would it be and why keating democracy. I think that
in this time right now, with what's going on in
(35:04):
every single state that's not allowing reproductive rights, voting rights,
the war in Ukraine, the authoritarian governments all over the
world that are taking power, it really is frightening to me.
So I think the biggest thing that I would love
to see is democracy in action, where everybody has an
equal voice. So, you know, it's funny, Sam. I met
(35:29):
Susanne years ago at the Riveter in l A and
she's one of those people that you quickly realized, Wow,
I'm really lucky I met her for a myriad of reasons, right, Like,
she's very cool, She's kind of like the epitome of cool,
and she's been doing things for decades that were very
avant garde that like maybe we really think are normal now,
(35:49):
but like she did them way before anyone else did.
It's funny. I knew Michael Starr's way before I knew
of Susanne because I was Michael Starrs T shirt wearing
person in my I think twenties, I mean years ago,
and um, I remember it was like one size fits
all and everyone had those that were like the sparkly
T shirts. And then the way I met Susanna. It's
(36:11):
kind of funny, but she came to one of my
political events that I'd organized and then she cold email
me on LinkedIn and asked if we could set up
a call. And it sounds like that's something she does often,
Like she reaches out to people she wants to know
and she just goes for it, which you know, I'm
a huge fan of. And I mean, it's inspiring to
(36:33):
see someone because I remember when she reached out to me,
I'm like, oh my god, she's a CEO of Michael Starr.
She's just you know, she's a stud. Like that's kind
of how I think of her. And um, but if so,
you know a lot of people think they're above doing
something like that, and I love the fact that as
a CEO, she still does that and she's still doing it,
you know, in her you know, well into her career
(36:53):
beyond just being a CEO, and you know, she's she's
very young at heart, but like she's still incredibly curious
in creative and I think it sounds like she's been
that way her entire life. I Mean, it was so
interesting to hear about her childhood and to hear like
I'm sorry, Like not a lot of people are like
running off to India and meeting with textile designers in
(37:14):
you know, whatever year that was. It's fascinating, It's wild.
I also love the part where she shared how she's
rebuilt her life after the loss of a spouse, which
I think a lot of people can relate to. And um,
you know, having no kids of her own and losing
a spouse, that must be an incredibly intense and lonely experience,
(37:34):
and somehow she still lived right away. It seems like
she figured out a way to live a fulfilling, rich life,
and I found that so impressive. I agree. I mean,
she's it sounds like she's been very intentional about it,
and that's hard, right, But she's kept living and kept
dreaming and kept meeting people and doing things and building
(37:55):
Michael stars. I hope that my career looks like hers
in a few decades from now. Thanks for listening to
What's Her Story with Sam and Amy. We would appreciate
it if you leave her review wherever you get your podcasts,
and of course, connect with us on social media at
What's Her Story podcast? What's Her Story with Sam and
(38:15):
Amy is powered by my company, The Riveter at The
Riveter dot c O and Sam's company, park Place Payments
at park place payments dot com. Thanks to our producer
Stacy Parra and our male perspective, blue Burns
I'm Sam Edis and I'm Amy Nelson. Welcome to What's
Her Story? With Sam and Amy. This is a show
about the world's most remarkable women, their professional and personal journeys. Together,
we'll hear from gold medalists, best selling authors, and leaders
of the world's most iconic brands. Listen every Thursday or
join the conversation anytime on Instagram at What's Her Story Podcast.
(00:30):
Susanne Learner is the president and CEO of Michael Stars,
the fashion essentialist company she co founded with her late husband.
She's an activist and a philanthropist devoted to running a
socially responsible business, and she's been doing it for decades,
far before it was cool. Susanne is also a board
member of the MS Foundation for Women. Who was Susanne
(00:54):
Larner before Michael Stars was built. That is a long story.
I grew up in a in a nice little suburb
that my parents could not afford in Chicago, and my
dad was a traveling salesman, so he would be gone
from Monday morning to Friday night. I was a latch
key kid with my two older brothers, and my mom
(01:15):
was a bookkeeper, but I used to help my dad
on weekends, so he sold jewelry and I loved being
with him, you know, checking the invoices and and sorting
cards and I just love that kind of thing. So
I just kind of grew up with these entrepreneurs. Even
though they weren't successful, they had that entrepreneur of spirit.
And then in high school, I got involved in the
(01:37):
political movements because it was anti war movement, social justice,
racial justice. Growing up in Chicago, this incredible movement. So
I started doing things like I was the type of
for the underground newspaper, and I went to demonstrations and
I was kicked out of school for wearing blue jeans
because at that time you could not wear blue jeans school.
(01:58):
So between that and demonstration and then my senior year
of high school, I decided to bus to a racially
integrated high school because I grew up in a high
school that had no integration at all. And there was
a program called Operation Wing Spread and I was able
to get on it. And this is after Chairman Fred
Hampton the Black Panthers was was murdered a month later
(02:18):
and I said to my parents, I'm going, and they
just could not stop me. They always really helped me
get to where I was going. They never really said no.
I think I was a very good salesman. Really, even
in that day, I could convince people. So I went
to the high school and I realized what the world
was like for other people. So I went to university
and dropped out and worked as a secretary. So I
(02:42):
had about a couple of years working for different companies.
Even in high school, I was like a Kelly girl,
and uh. I saved my money and I went off
to Europe by myself when I was twenty one and
spent three months there and realized I wanted to do
more traveling. So came back to Chicago, went to school,
and went off again, and I realized I really wanted
(03:03):
to see the world. So I saved my money again,
and I met an Australian guy in Greece one summer,
and I ended up going to school in France, and
then I moved to Australia on a fiancee's visa so
I could get a visa and worked there. And then
I traveled for two years overland, all through Indonesia, Thailand, Nepal,
(03:26):
India and experienced life so um. One day in New Delhi,
I wandered into a shop with a woman named Santo Sharma,
and I was kind of blown away because it was
a woman who owned an import export business. And we
started talking and we became friends, and I went every day,
and then she introduced me to some Americans and British
(03:50):
people who wanted to start a clothing company. And I
had not done that. I mean, I had been on
like the teen board for a department store, but I
had loved seventeen magazin Sean always was dealing with hand
me downs, but being able to put together outfits, you know,
embroidering blue jeans and in knitting sweaters. So I decided
to do it. And I had no idea what I
(04:12):
was doing. None of us had any idea. The designer
was British and she lived in Kabba, Afghanistan, making these
beautiful dresses. And we took an old Mercedes and we
drove up to Afghanistan. I remembers in between two wars,
and I ended up in Los Angeles with one of
the partners who was here Afghanistan and India to l
(04:34):
A like how did you get to l A? So
Roger Wong, who was my part one of the partners
had a art gallery here and he in this French
American named Alan, who had the money. We're friends and
we're importing beautiful jewelry, silver jewelry and sweaters from Morocco.
And so he called Roger. His car had broken down.
(04:54):
He said, Roger, I need a Mercedes engine. Roger bought
the engine, took it on a plane New Delhi, and
we all met and we said, we think we can
do this company. And Allen had the money, Margaret had
the designs, and Roger knew one person in the clothing business.
So I went home into Chicago, packed my trunk and
(05:16):
I moved to l A. And we started by talking
to this woman Lee that her name was Lee Walzac,
just coming back to me, and she rapped Casherrell and
she helped us so much with understanding the business. And
in those days, there were these big, big, big books
that had every single specialty store in the country, and
we just had we were so we were waiting for
(05:37):
our samples. We were getting ready to start. We we
you know, had our little business license. And then Margaret
and Allen broke up. They were boyfriend and girlfriend and
Roger and I then said, okay, now what are we
gonna do well. The prior to leaving, I had met
my plane had been delayed, and I ended up sharing
(05:58):
a took took back to New Delhi with this Italian
guy who said, I know these people in Old Delhi.
And we went into the shop and it was this
amazing company called Sader Silk, and they were making things
for Fia Rucci and all the Italian brands, and they
were very friendly, and I was very friendly and I
bought some things. So I said to Roger, I remember
(06:19):
these people. I'm going to send him a letter, and
I think you should just go back there and get samples.
So Roger took out his credit card, we put my
ticket on it, I got on a plane. I showed
up on their doorstep and they went, Susie, we just
got your letter this morning. We're happy to see you,
but we don't do business with Americans because we don't
(06:41):
trust them. And by the end of the day they said,
we're giving you a sample line and you just have
to pay for it. And so I got a sample line,
and I came back to Los Angeles and we called
the line Susie Wong for me and Roger, and we
started going out. You know, in those days there was
big specialty stores like Contemplate Casuals and Judy's and Bullets
(07:04):
was here. There were so many department stores and you
could wander in on a Friday on the open by
date and they would just write orders. Business was so
amazing in the late seventies. So we got orders, and um,
I called my parents and I said, you did not
pay for my college. And I knew they didn't have
a lot of money, and I said, I know I'm
(07:25):
going to be successful. I need to borrow money. I
want to borrow here's the orders, and I want to
have money to pay for the orders. And they lent
me money. They lent me fifteen thousand dollars. So we
got the orders and I went back to India to
check production and we shipped it and we were making
some money. And then the end of the year there
(07:49):
was always quota with customs. You know, you could only
bring in a certain amount of goods into America from
a foreign country. And quota closed in November and I
hit We had a shipment sitting at the airport, so
it was like the end of the road. But what
we did was is when it cleared. I took the
goods in and then we went out again and resold them.
(08:10):
And I was packing boxes in my apartment, typing, typing invoices,
you know, four shirts, four little shirts in a box
with a separate invoice, you know, hundreds and hundreds and hundreds.
But eventually it failed and we just could not do it. Well,
did you pay your parents back? That's the big question
in many many ways, but not that way. Starting a
business is really hard. Most businesses do fail. What in
(08:32):
you felt like you could call your parents and say, like,
I know I'm going to be successful, Like a lot
of young women don't say things like that. Yeah, and
especially I think the days I was in I was
a feminist and I felt I was powerful to accomplish things,
and I knew it wasn't going to be in regular
kind of things that women typically were doing in those days.
(08:55):
And uh, I think when you're have no choice, you
pick yourself up and you do things that you wouldn't
typically do. Because I knew what it meant from my
parents to say yes today, I understood um what it was,
and I just I was really lucky because they believed
in me. So what happened after where we left off.
(09:15):
So UM, I ended up getting jobs and UM first
job was at a little import company from India, and
I did everything I you know, I checked the bills
of lady. I would sit in the telex and write orders.
I was assistant to the owners. But I always felt
like I was failing up because I got fired from
that job. And I think the the owner's wife didn't
(09:37):
really like me, and I didn't quite understand that tension
sometimes between women and what was happening. And I think
I was powerful and I had an opinion and I
probably stated it and she might not have wanted to
hear it. So I moved to other companies. UM. And
then I moved to a company called Disco Jeans, Disco
and Law Disco Jeans, and I would sit there with
(09:58):
allocation of things, this high of orders and have to
decide who was getting shipped. Um, we have lots of
sales reps. I worked for two male sales managers. And
just last month I linked in with my old owner,
the owner of the company, and I said, do you
remember me? He said, blue eyes, curly hair, and respectfully aggressive. Oh.
(10:21):
I love that. That's actually my favorite new term. Respectfully aggressive.
This is amazing. Respectfully, how do people perceive you? Like,
how did people perceive you when you were in your
twenties and how you were doing things. See, you've always
been a huge salesperson. I mean since high school with
your dad, You've always been a salesperson. And I don't
(10:42):
think most people think of a designer as a salesperson.
And I don't think of myself as that. I I
see incredible salespeople, and I don't think that's it. I
think I believe in my product, and I have passion
and I'm nice. I think people weren't used to it. Actually,
a couple of weeks ago, my Nordstrom buyer, when we
first had Michael Stars, she told a story. She's a
(11:05):
black woman, and she said, you know, Susanne, you are
always nice to me. Just I would walk into a
showroom with twelve other Nordstrom buyers and people wouldn't look
at me, people wouldn't speak to me. And she said,
I had the biggest pen, I could write the biggest orders.
But she said there was something there. And so when
I came to her with the T shirts, she said,
(11:27):
I blough from you because of who you were, and
I didn't even know about the T shirts, but I
bloffed you because of the type of person you were,
and I had never she never told me that we've
been friends for thirty five years and I never heard
that story. So you know, it's really good. Always think that.
I mean, it always comes back to all your relationships
in your networking well. But I mean, I think that's
(11:47):
something that people don't talk enough about in business because
we're supposed to be like hard and fierce and everything,
but just being a good, kind person, Like, do you
think that's one of the things that had had defined
your career? I think so. I think so. I think
that everybody always knows me as being honest. I mean, listen,
I can be tough when there's a lot of things
in the plate. I can be frustrated. I sometimes get
(12:08):
negative with people, and I kicked myself in the end.
I learned now to be able to apologize and talk
to them about it and explain the reasons why and
try to improve always. But I think I've ended up
being straight, a kind, honest but kind. I think you
always have to do that as a person sitting next
to you that's doing the task, whether they're failing or achieving,
(12:29):
and it's still a human being. And now a quick break.
So how did you launch Michael Stars? Well, from like
for about four or five years, I had grown my
two D square foot showroom to a three D fifty
square foot showroom and I ended up taking on a partner.
That particular week that Michael walked in my showroom. And
(12:52):
he walked in and he at this South African accent.
I kind of had met him before through one of
my manufacturers, and and um, he came in with the
line of Polly cotton sweatshirt shoulder padded printed with sweatshirts,
and the sweatshirts were really super ugly and shoulder pads
had just gone out of style, which I knew, but
(13:13):
the designs are really super cute. And I was single.
I had broken up with my boyfriend about six months before,
and I was determined to never be with anybody again,
and I was just so attracted to him. He was handsome,
which kind of made it easier and interesting. So after
three days of thinking about representing the line, I waited
(13:37):
until Sunday night. I remember this call. I was so
nervous because he was very convincing and I turned down
the line and asked him out in a date and
he was like, wait a minute, I don't remember what
you look like, and nobody turns me and just could
not understand it, and he said okay, and so we
(13:59):
made a date for two days later and we had
dinner and a bottle of wine and that was it.
And a week later he showed up with the hand
painted designs on T shirts and I said that I
can sell. And that's when we started. He had second
mortgaged his home. So I was the sales part and
(14:20):
marketing and designing, and he was the marketing and running
the business. And uh, it was there. It was there
every minute of our lives. And it was already called
Michael Stars. At that point it was called Michael Stars.
The original artist was a man named John Stars, who
was a volleyball playing her most of each resident that
used to sell them at little fairs, and Michael used
(14:42):
to buy them and bring him. He had a home
in Miconos, used to go to Miconos a couple of
times a year and his friends would He'd give them
away to his friends because everybody wanted them. So we
knew we had something, and I put him up. I
put him up in the showroom. Remember this little baby
chew room and Fred Siegel, Bloomingdale, Barney's all walked into
(15:02):
my door and said, we want to buy those. How
do you think they knew where your door was? Those days,
people just wandered the halls and they kind of look
they were looking for interesting new things. In those days,
it wasn't as difficult, I think as nowadays, because people
don't do those kind of things. Even the trade shows.
There's fewer people walking around, there's fewer there's fewer stores
to sell to. What's the process today? Start a website?
(15:25):
I mean in terms of marketing, Start a website, get
some photos done, send an email, hope somebody's gonna look.
Use your networking. I use LinkedIn all the time. I
highly recommended. I will just reach out to people. So
you mentioned you know sustainability, and I think you've really
been a model as a leader in so many ways,
but one of them is that you've always you've always
(15:48):
included social impact and everything you've done very openly, long
before many CEOs would touch anything. How did you navigate
that we would all be charitable ourselves personally? Michael used
to read something in the newspaper. He cut it out
and sent a check, so it was it's been always
twenty years now. We started the foundation because we wanted
(16:11):
to give to organizations that my customers would care about.
And so basically it's like women and girls. I cared
about voting rights and um helping women change their communities
through government. So I was. I used to read Reclear,
you know, that magazine had was most political fashion magazine
(16:31):
out there at the time, and I found a little
clipping of an organization called Women Thrive. Women Thrive helped
train women in advocacy so they as a group could
get together and go to their governments and their towns
and their villages and make change. And that just appealed
to me so much. So I wrote them a letter,
I sent them a little check, and when I went
(16:51):
to Washington for another event, I called them up and said,
I'd really love to meet with you, and the woman
met me for breakfast. I don't know what I was doing.
I'd never said on a board. I didn't know anything,
and she said she started talking to me and I
started learning, and so later they offered me a position
on the board, and I thought, why do you want me.
I own a small company. I don't have the credentials,
(17:14):
and they said, that's why we want you, because you
have a real voice. And so that was my start
sitting on nonprofit boards, and through that and the foundation,
we started giving more and more grants strictly to grassroots
women's groups. We didn't go for the big, big organizations.
They have their own way of fundraising. We wanted to
go where our money had the most impact. Most fashion
(17:36):
companies are like churn and burn right. They come out
with a splash and then they disappear. One thing that
makes Michael Starr's unique is that you've had such staying
power and at the same time, you've never maybe at
one point you were the sexy object, you know, the sexy,
shiny object, but you've always just been a staple. Is
(17:56):
that part of your strategy or was that accidental. I
feel like we always tried to do things that were
on trend, that would last a long time, that was
a staple, and not things that were really trendy. I
think though, for the most part, it's because we were
a family owned company, and when I would see that
one product, like our our screen printed T shirts, nobody
(18:20):
wanted him. After a couple of years, we went to
one of our shows. I said, Michael, they're not nobody
wants them anymore. Put the booth up, and so we
had a little five by ten booth with that. And
in the meantime, I had been doing garment die T
shirts with French ribbon roses on it with my partner,
and I said, why don't we just do garment die
T shirts because we have customers asking for them. So
we had a little a ten by ten booth with those.
(18:42):
We got like five orders for the printed T shirts,
and everybody wanted the solid T shirts. So I think
over the years I really had the gift of knowing
what people want and what's going to be next. So
we've gone through a lot of transitions, you know, because
then we created our shiny object, the Shine T shirt,
which in the nine these kind of blew us up,
and our one size idea. I had a blue Shine
(19:04):
T shirt. Everybody has a Shine T shirt story, every
single person I meet. Now it's so funny to hear
these stories, and I'm telling you, they're all happy. My
first date, my first thing in college. I couldn't afford it,
and my mother finally I was able to afford it.
I said, do you still have it? Now? Their daughters
are taking them out of their closets. It's really it's
(19:26):
really wonderful to see it. What is advice you would
give to a younger woman kind of starting out or
a woman in her forties wants to pivot had You've
got to find what you're passionate about. I think a
lot of people were probably careers they really weren't happy
in and how to deal with especially these women in
thirties and forties that are having to redefine themselves and
(19:46):
what to do. So I think they just have to
go and search for it a bit. But it takes work,
and I think using again your networks of people who
care like you care, you can find something. And I
know there's so many women that lost their businesses. We know,
I mean, what's the percentage? I mean there was a huge,
huge failure of so many women, and how do we
(20:09):
get those women back into the workforce and caring about things.
We were very lucky at Michael Stars. We um had
a furlowsom people, but we started making masks immediately and
everybody wanted casual clothing work from home. Clothing. So our
business actually exploded, and I had been self funding the
business for five years before. I didn't want venture capital money.
I wanted of Michael Stars as a woman owned company.
(20:31):
I just wouldn't do it, and that kind of helped
us survive that and be able to bring in people
who cared, who were committed, who are costly committed to
the mission of Michael Stars. Like what we felt about
women in the world inequality, I wanted women like that
working for me. And I have to say, we have
so many people that have worked for us for so
(20:51):
long they are now senior managers, directors, assistant managers of
a warehouse. As woman, she's now my director of all
my warehouses. People have become controllers from being accounts payable.
I think you've got it. You've got it almost interview
the company you want to work for as much as
I'm interviewing you. You have to make sure it's the
(21:12):
right fit. And now a quick break, Suzanne. I know
that you and your husband ran the company together for
so long and then he passed away. What was that
like for you, both personally and professionally. It was a
long road. He was sick and we didn't tell a soul.
(21:35):
He didn't want anybody to know, and then it was
getting more obvious. So I had that point four national
show rooms and we incorporated into Michael Stars, and I
joined the company officially full time, integrating everything and was
going to work every day. And he didn't want to.
He wasn't as enthusiastic about it. He was happy staying home.
(21:59):
We had just adopted a dog, and um, he hung out,
he started painting and left more to me. You know,
we were the like dynamic duo and if we weren't
loving each other, we were fighting each other. And you know,
it's the third person in the bed. So it was
a big change for me because at night when we
used to play scrabble all night long and talk about
things and books and reading and traveling and spending time
(22:20):
in Greece, he would he was going to bed early.
So I had to get used to actually being by
myself because I was always the one traveling, he was
always the one home. So we finally told people, and um,
you know, when he passed away, it was very difficult.
It was expected, so I knew that, but I didn't
understand what it meant. After being together thirty years but
(22:43):
I what was I going to do? I had to
go to work. I had to be there for everybody there.
We considered the company our family. Twice we had big
offers to sell and we just didn't want to sell.
We we didn't want that money. We wanted our family
and our business. So I would get up five o'clock
every more name and go off on the patio with
a coffee. And so many people wrote to me and
(23:05):
I would sit there and cry and read emails and
post from Facebook and find old photos and um, I
would just get up and go to work. And UM,
I knew that was something that Michael wanted me to
do because we believed in it so much. And it
(23:27):
was hard because people were Michael was a very big presence,
huge personality, and I don't think people trusted me. They
didn't really know me. They didn't know my background, they
didn't know the years I had worked for other companies.
I mean, Michael had been an entrepreneur, he never had
any background, so they didn't know all the guidance he
was getting from behind with me. And the amount of
(23:47):
times I've had where I pushed my agenda and pushed
what I believe so much and I would. That's the
other thing. Just keep pushing for what you believe. I
would keep doing until he finally warmed down and he
agreed to to something. But there were a lot of
silos at the company, A lot of people that might
have resented me, didn't think I. I thought I was
going to fail, and I just kept working at it
(24:11):
every day and trying to break down the barriers and
getting people to talk to each other and redefining and
re looking at the company as a new, shiny object
of what we could do to make it new again.
Did you get rid of those people who were in
the silos or did you convert them into Suzanne Learner fans? Well,
I I converted most people. There were a couple that
(24:31):
I know during the years and wanted me to get
wanted to fire me because I think they wanted the power.
And so those people ended up leaving. And I had
to be strong, you know, because you have to speak
up for yourself. You have to feel empowered to be
able to deal with that. And you know you can't
deal with it angry. You gotta you gotta figure out
your strategy for doing it. So no, we we had
(24:54):
a we had a great crew that are still many
people are still with us, and you know Michael, I
mean psychics. I'm going to talk about psychists for a second.
I'd go to Greece. We have a home there and
I'd sit in my bedroom and Michael had a hammock
he he loved being in and I always put it up.
And I was sitting there and looking out the window
and literally it was just moving back and forth. There
(25:15):
was no wind, just moving back and forth. So then
I just went to a psychic and he was there,
and I, you know, I felt very uh not just
warm and fuzzy, but that I know he's there. I know,
I know he's always around. And so I don't really
believe in heaven in hell, but um, I believe that
(25:36):
people stay with you. Their spirit stays with you, their
energy stays with you. And so I think I don't
miss him as much as I might have if I
hadn't had those experiences, because he's there, his niece, photos up,
big photos up in the warehouse. Everybody talks about Michael, um,
everybody thinks about him. He's really the core of the company.
(25:59):
Before he left, before he passed away, did you talk
with him about what the transition would be like at
the company. He when he handed me the reins, he
knew that I would be a good and you know,
at the same time, I was going out more doing
a little bit more public speaking. Why we hadn't even
(26:19):
doing any public speaking about what I believed and what
I wanted to do. And I was encouraged. And actually
the night before he died and we didn't know he
was in hospice, but he was home step up. It
offered me an opportunity to speak on a panel and
I said I can't do this, and he said, you go,
you go, you go. And it was the first time
(26:39):
I spoke with anybody. And I came home and he
died the next day. And I feel like he waited
for me, like he believed in me, and he wanted
what was best for me. When I used to go
out to town places to like my board meetings, he
wouldn't tell me this. He'd always argue with me. I'd
never tell him until the night before that I was
actually leaving, because he'd always get upset that I was leaving.
(27:02):
But my my friends would say, oh, he said, oh,
Susie is out saving the world. She's out of town
doing the things. Oh, she really believed in in what
I believed in and encouraged me in many ways, but
there was no big transition plan. What do you do
at night now now that he's not there, Well, I'm
probably on zoom calls and working and doing something until
(27:24):
probably about eight o'clock at night, and uh, then it's
trying to make something healthy, binging the latest show playing. Oh,
I do play Spider scroup, I do play Spider. It's terrible.
It's Spider solid here, do not start. One of my
friends started and yelled at me the next month, saying
I can't get off of it. So it kind of
(27:47):
it's almost like my meditation. I mean, I do my
plots in my yoga. That's so funny, Susan, because I
always say that my my near time spelling bee is
my meditation. Well, I have to say that's probably a
lot better for your mind learning new words there, which
is just so many less. But you know, I'm doing
so many things between my activism and you know, and
(28:10):
running the company, and and and friendships and trying to
change the world and getting equal rights to memo passed,
and there's so much going on that I actually have
to find that break to do nothing. And I am
do not have children like you too, So I I'm
lucky enough to have that thing. It's just me and
my dog. And don't you have stepchildren? I have two
(28:32):
stepchildren and I have two grandchildren. And are you involved
in their lives? I am? I am. Sometimes it's not easy, No,
I feel they have resentments that the kids, the step
kids definitely have resentments. And I hope that one day
they'll figure it out. But I'm not holding my breath,
And you know what, it's their life. They have to
(28:52):
decide and understand who I am for them, and I'm
hoping one day they'll they'll figure it out. And I
have so many friends, and I really do feel like
friends and companions are your family. They really are. And
I have a wonderful brother, anna, niece and nephew and
they've got kids. And I'm like, Shoes Shoe, I show up.
(29:14):
You know. Those FaceTime calls every week are so great.
I just saw him last weekend. They're in New York
and I welcome to Dory Shoes you so I know
you have you can build families wherever. Speaking of so
much Ado, what is next for Michael Starters. I mean,
where do you hope to bring the brand? If someone
you know came to your door tomorrow and tried to
buy the brand from you, would you sell it? How
(29:37):
are you thinking about that? I'm a proponent of keeping
your company's private. I've seen so many brands, so many
brands that are no longer relevant. They're just a licensed
brand because they got off the founder got offered a
lot of money. They take it, they have a contract.
They usually stay about a year before they're either kicked
out or the company has changed so much the product
(30:00):
becomes less relevant. Somebody's got to pay back the VC,
somebody's got to pay back the future profits. So the
quality suffers and the pricing goes up and they lose
their way. And I don't want that to happen with
Michael Stars. It's just something about this company that's so special.
So I'll probably end up doing an employee share and
(30:21):
do something different. Um, we have wonderful new people that
have come on board that are helping me out now
or I don't have to sit in the design room
and fix things. You know, they're they're now they're helping product.
We have a wonderful marketing team, um great art director.
And so my plans are to help the community of
Michael Stars learn more about actionable items that they can
(30:44):
do in the world to change the world, because gender
equality for me is really important as racial equality. And
a lot of my customers don't have time to think
about where to go, what to do, how to get involved.
They're very busy lives, and I want to give them
that opportunity to learn and share about things. Even if
they just share it on a like, I want them
(31:06):
to share it with their friends for more and more
people to know about what we need to do in
this world to really have full purity. And so that's
my big mission and I'm Michael Stars. I could have
closed it and business was kind of not great when
Michael passed away, and I just pushed my own money.
I took my savings and I said, I'm going to
make this happen. I believe in this brand, and my
(31:26):
c p A and my board and people who worked
for me believed in me, and from them believing in me,
I was able to go forward into the world and
just do what I had to do. And I invested
a lot of money back in the business. But I
just knew that it's something more important. It's it's not
so tangible, and now I have to stay in the
last two years business is phenomenal. So now I'm my
(31:49):
role this year is to incorporate my vision and who
I am into the brand. All right, well, we're gonna
go to our speed around now, Suzanne, where we're going
to ask Tess a few questions and you can give
us quick answers. What are you reading. I just finished
a book by Twohrry Coates called The Water Dancer. It
is one of the more beautiful books I've ever read
in my life, so I highly recommend it, and I'm
(32:13):
going to start reading. I try to read a fiction
in a nonfiction book at the same time. And I've
got a pile of books that I've collected over COVID
that i want to read. But um, I just got
a friend of mine just gave me Patrice Colorea's new
book that's about twelve Ways that you kind of you
can change the world because she dressed wrote incredible book
about her upbringing in California, and she's really an icon
(32:33):
for me. So that's the next book I'm reading. I'm
reading a lot from African American authors. I want to
understand more. You know, I was white privileg I didn't
think I was privileged, but I was definitely white privileged.
And understanding the world in a different way is for
me really important. You mentioned binge watching shows. What are
you binging right now? Oh? The Guilded Age, which I
(32:57):
really love. I love Julian Fellas and and Pammy and Tommy.
A friend of mine produced it, and actually it's really
good and it really talks about a woman's role in
those days. And she was the one who got all
the pressure. He he got nothing. So it was really
interesting how dynamics of women and feminism and culture and
sexuality and pornography, UM, and what it was like in
(33:19):
those days and what she went through really different. Now
when you travel again abroad, where is the first place
you're going? I mean, I really want to go back
to India again. I haven't been there in years. But
you know, I'm a little fearful about the changes that
have happened in the world since I've gone um and
haven't traveled as much. And you know, Haiti, I've been
going to Haiti since the earthquake, and it's like a
(33:40):
second home, and their political problems are so bad that
I haven't been able to go there either. If you
had to put all of your money into one cause
I know you're involved in so many, what would that
one causby is a terrible question. And to ask me,
(34:01):
I am giving money. I you have no idea how
much money I give up. I mean, it's not the
amount of money, it's the amount of I know. But
that's why. That's why you're the only guest I've ever
asked this to Suzanne, because you're always giving your money away.
For me, it's supporting women in whatever way. So I'm
kind of getting around this. You know, I'm supporting women
(34:22):
of color, grassroots movement building. I really do believe that
the world's going to change from the bottom up, and
so anything that I can do to create equality, purity,
and power in women are the causes that I give
to all Right, Well, lou Burns has been listening to
our conversation this whole time, and he is joining us
(34:43):
with the male perspective because of who you are, and
you have a huge following. Um, if you could change
anything that's happening right now, the outcome of it, what
would it be and why keating democracy. I think that
in this time right now, with what's going on in
(35:04):
every single state that's not allowing reproductive rights, voting rights,
the war in Ukraine, the authoritarian governments all over the
world that are taking power, it really is frightening to me.
So I think the biggest thing that I would love
to see is democracy in action, where everybody has an
equal voice. So, you know, it's funny, Sam. I met
(35:29):
Susanne years ago at the Riveter in l A and
she's one of those people that you quickly realized, Wow,
I'm really lucky I met her for a myriad of reasons, right, Like,
she's very cool, She's kind of like the epitome of cool,
and she's been doing things for decades that were very
avant garde that like maybe we really think are normal now,
(35:49):
but like she did them way before anyone else did.
It's funny. I knew Michael Starr's way before I knew
of Susanne because I was Michael Starrs T shirt wearing
person in my I think twenties, I mean years ago,
and um, I remember it was like one size fits
all and everyone had those that were like the sparkly
T shirts. And then the way I met Susanna. It's
(36:11):
kind of funny, but she came to one of my
political events that I'd organized and then she cold email
me on LinkedIn and asked if we could set up
a call. And it sounds like that's something she does often,
Like she reaches out to people she wants to know
and she just goes for it, which you know, I'm
a huge fan of. And I mean, it's inspiring to
(36:33):
see someone because I remember when she reached out to me,
I'm like, oh my god, she's a CEO of Michael Starr.
She's just you know, she's a stud. Like that's kind
of how I think of her. And um, but if so,
you know a lot of people think they're above doing
something like that, and I love the fact that as
a CEO, she still does that and she's still doing it,
you know, in her you know, well into her career
(36:53):
beyond just being a CEO, and you know, she's she's
very young at heart, but like she's still incredibly curious
in creative and I think it sounds like she's been
that way her entire life. I Mean, it was so
interesting to hear about her childhood and to hear like
I'm sorry, Like not a lot of people are like
running off to India and meeting with textile designers in
(37:14):
you know, whatever year that was. It's fascinating, It's wild.
I also love the part where she shared how she's
rebuilt her life after the loss of a spouse, which
I think a lot of people can relate to. And um,
you know, having no kids of her own and losing
a spouse, that must be an incredibly intense and lonely experience,
(37:34):
and somehow she still lived right away. It seems like
she figured out a way to live a fulfilling, rich life,
and I found that so impressive. I agree. I mean,
she's it sounds like she's been very intentional about it,
and that's hard, right, But she's kept living and kept
dreaming and kept meeting people and doing things and building
(37:55):
Michael stars. I hope that my career looks like hers
in a few decades from now. Thanks for listening to
What's Her Story with Sam and Amy. We would appreciate
it if you leave her review wherever you get your podcasts,
and of course, connect with us on social media at
What's Her Story podcast? What's Her Story with Sam and
(38:15):
Amy is powered by my company, The Riveter at The
Riveter dot c O and Sam's company, park Place Payments
at park place payments dot com. Thanks to our producer
Stacy Parra and our male perspective, blue Burns
Hosts And Creators
Samantha Ettus
Amy Nelson
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