April 29, 2021 • 48 mins
In this episode we chat with forest ecologist Suzanne Simard, whose groundbreaking research led to her wildly popular TED talk on how trees talk to each other. Suzanne discusses sexism in science; the stressful life choice that led to her cancer, why her children are following in her footsteps; and finding love after her divorce.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, I'm Sam Edis and I'm Amy Nelson. Welcome to
What's Her Story? With Sam and Amy. This is a
show about the world's most remarkable women. They're professional and
personal journeys. Together, we'll hear from gold medalists, best selling authors,
and leaders of the world's most iconic brands. Today, we're
(00:24):
thrilled to welcome Susanne Simar onto the show. She's a
forest scientist and five million people have watched her TED talks.
She's also the author of Finding the Mother Tree Discovering
the Wisdom of the Forest. So, Suzanne, when did you
first fall in love with trees? I think that a
(00:44):
child is surrounded by love from the moment they're born.
But falling in love with trees was just a natural
thing because I grew up right around them, right in
the forest, and so they were just part of the
fabric of my life. I loved my family, I love
my trees. When you they they were that you grew
up in the forest, what exactly did that mean? Paint
a picture for us of what your childhood was like. Yeah,
(01:06):
so my parents came from the Inland rainforest, and so
that's where we spent even though we didn't live exactly
in it all the time. We spent all of our
summers and springs and falls in these rainforests. What is
a rainforest? They're full of big trees, first of all,
and in our case they were cedars and hemlocks. So
(01:26):
these giant cathedrals of forests and full of like lots
of different plants and animals. Um, they're just really complex
and amazing places. But I never thought of it that
way because that's just where I grew up. But they
are like those iconic old growth rainforests, but they were
(01:47):
on the interior. They're not on the coast. It's in
the interior where I grew up as more like closer
to the rocky mountains. And so as the you know,
as the weather moves across the mountains, it dumps a
lot of rain in those areas. And so that's what
races inland rainforests. What does it mean to spend a
day in the rainforest? So you would wake up as
a child and explain that relationship to us. Well, So
(02:11):
in the summers when we were at my grandparents on
my dad's side, we were in a place called Maple Lake,
and we actually lived on a houseboat, a logger's house
boat right on the lake, so right in this beautiful,
huge lake full of soft, poppy water. I say ploppy
because it rained a lot. And I always remember the
PLoP PLoP PLoP sound of the rain on the lake
(02:32):
and of course on the leaves in the bush, you know,
the big Devil's club and the big leaves of the
understory plants. It was wet and rainy and not all
the time, also sunny days, but we would so we
would live on this house boat that was built by
my grandfather for housing loggers who logged in the area.
And in the summers my family would move in and
(02:54):
it was moored on the shore of Cottonwood Bay at
Maple Lake. And so we spent half our time in
the water and half our time in the forest on
the shore, and you know, just playing like as I
as a kid, and my brother and sister and I
would you know, we especially love making rafts, and we
would make these rickety old rass with old logs that
(03:15):
have fallen from the forest and then go around into
different bays and creeks and just play and make forts
and play in the bush. That's what it was like.
It sounds so idyllic. I mean, Amy and I are
now raising our kids among so many screens. That sounds
like a fantasy way to grow up, was it? Well,
it wasn't to me because that was all I knew.
(03:36):
But now I realized, like, most kids don't get to
grow up that way now, but they you know, my kids,
for example, they did grow up in the forests around here,
not quite as idyllic as my childhood, but because they
grew up in the screen area era as well, and
they need to know those things, but they still have
their life outside, so I think that it's still pretty
(03:58):
idyllic for sure. You're known as the person who discovered
that trees talk to each other. How did that happen? Well,
I wasn't the only person who's discovered I'll just say
that off the bat. You know, people have looked at
it in various ways, and I've certainly been one of
those people. But what I looked at, what I have
discovered in in my work is that in a forest
(04:22):
that the trees are all connected together by these special
fungi that are they're called micizal fungi, and they're kinds
of fungi that helped trees or help plants. They're called mutualists.
That means that the that the tree or the plant
provides photosynthe and exchange for nutrients and water that the
fungus gets from the soil. So it's a mutualistic relationship
(04:44):
and they connect plants together, and through those fungal highways,
trees and plants pass nutrients and water back and forth
between them, and so that's a kind of communication. That's
the talking that people talk about when they say, oh,
you've discovered how trees talk to each other. And when
I say I'm not the only one, it's because other
people are looking at this as well in different systems
(05:06):
around the world. I was just the first one to
discover it in forests. The other mode of conversation between trees.
In addition to these below ground fungal highways or telephone
lines you could think of them, we now know too
that trees and I didn't do this research. Other people
actually in California and Oregon did this work where they
(05:26):
actually communicate through the air, and so trees will emit
or send off chemical signals that are they're called volatile
organic chemicals or compounds, and you know they're the smells
that you smell in the forest when you walk in
the forest. Their signals, and they can signal each other
whether there's any kind of danger in the woods, like
if there's an infestation by insects. They can warn their neighbors.
(05:50):
Even the same species are different species of these sort
of enemies in the forest, or at least these herbivores.
So that's another mode of commun occasion that I haven't studied,
but that has been going on kind of parallel to
my own work. At the same time, they warn them,
how so when a tree is injured. So for example,
(06:11):
I have specifically looked at these weren't budworms or my
students did that are natural enemies are herbivores in the forest.
The bud words chew on the needles of Douglas furs
and pines and so on, especially Douglas fur, which is
what I studied, and the douglas for when it gets
chewed on like that, or even when if you went
with a parasits and clipped off the needles, which we
(06:33):
did as well, the trees respond, right. It's like if
somebody punched you in the face, you would go and
you would go, oh, my jaw, you know, and have
a response. Trees have a response to and it's a
hormonal biochemical response, and it triggers that chewing by a
herbivord triggers a biochemical cascade of reactions that basically, you know,
(06:54):
starts on the leaves and ends up in the roots.
And what we found is that these warning or these
chemicals would then emit through through the microizal network and
into other neighbors. So then the neighbors would receive those
messages and it actually triggered them to upregulate defense genes.
So this is in their genetics there their RNA. Actually
(07:16):
they upregulate their RNA and start producing defense enzymes, and
then those enzymes protected that neighbor against herbivores that would
attack it. So you know, you could attack those neighbors
then that were upregulated with the same insect and they
were able to resist that attack. Some people call it
a warning an aid system, So the attack plant warns
(07:38):
its neighbors and helps them. That's the warning and aid,
but others kind of think of it as the neighboring
plant eavesdropping on the status of the donor or the
attack plant, and so you know which is it Is
it a warning system or is it an eaves dropping system.
I think it's a combination of both. Like both plants
are involved in this communication that's going on. So it's
(08:00):
funny that you kind of downplay, Oh, I just discovered
it in forests, likes it's still pretty extraordinary, right for
those of us that are not in your field, What
are the sort of domino effects of understanding this, What
other things does that lead to? That's a really good question.
Those domino effects are still happening. So at first when
(08:23):
I first did this work, I mean it was exciting
because you know, I was the first one to show
that this kind of networking and transmission of resources, this
communication occurs in real forests. Prior to that, there had
been some work done in the United Kingdom by a
scientist called David Reid who had looked at the laboratory
and found, you know, that these micro rhizal funge i
(08:45):
could connect pine seedlings and little pots in the lab
and that carbon could move from one to another. So
we already knew that, but I took that sort of
lab study and said, does this actually exist or occur
in real ecosystems? And I was I've always worked in forest,
so naturally that's where I tested this. And so when
I did that work, I basically kind of verified what
(09:07):
David read had found, but took it that, you know,
several steps further. I verified it happened in forest. I
found out that these communication is a two way communication.
It's not just one plant sending resources to another. Is
actually they go back and forth. That these plants are
in a tango right there, in a conversation. And and
I also was able to figure out, you know, that
(09:29):
plants are kind of our main drivers of this. They
kind of have control over this. I found that when
I shaded a plant that more carbon went to it.
It wasn't the fungus itself that was controlling it, it
was the plants. But I mean, really, in nature, everything
works together, you know, the plants, the fungi, the soil.
So I'm sure that you know, further studies and have
(09:50):
verified since then that the fungi actually are involved in
this communication as well. Okay, so then what happened. I
got that published in Nature, which was a big deal.
So there was a lot of attention, good and bad.
So a lot of good attention because it got you
know public, but there was a lot of skepticism about
my work, and I think there still is, right, Like, so,
(10:11):
the main skepticism that came up in the academic world
was they just kind of started picking apart my work, right, saying, well,
you didn't do this right, and you didn't do that right.
And so I actually, at that point in my career,
I was in my mid thirties. At that point, I
kind of got really turned off by it, by this
constant harassment, you know, this nitpicking of my work. And
(10:33):
I could see that it was a debate that had
been going on for quite a while by between other researchers,
and I was sort of like, I kind of stumbled
into it, and I thought, I don't want to do
this anymore. And I was having my children at that time,
so it was doubly stressful. And then even the forest
industry and the government who I worked for, they were
also very negative about it, right, They thought, oh, I'm
(10:57):
trying to get them to change what they do, and
I'm too critical and and you know, and I shouldn't
be criticizing government policy and anyway, So at that point,
I was just like, you know what, I don't know
if it's worth it personally for me to keep pursuing this.
And then, you know, my kids grew up a little bit,
I got a different job in academia, and when I
(11:18):
got to academia, that was the place where I could
actually make my mark, was to continue that work. So
when you get into academia instead of government scientists, you
actually have to continue progressing your science, whereas in government
or industry you're supporting their policy. Basically, that's your sciences
to support their policy. So it was quite a different mindset,
and so I had more freedom. I still was you know,
(11:41):
I was interested in it, of course, but I was
also still really um you know that the questions were
so I don't know, it was stalled. I think the
whole field became stalled because people were still didn't believe
that these networks existed. They didn't believe that it had
the effect on plants, even though the evidence was gathering.
(12:03):
But I continued like a little bit with my students
and slowly built the story over the next decade. So
that's when I was in my forties and other labs
in the world started taking it up and making breakthroughs.
And then I thought, okay, you know now I can
continue on with this because you weren't a lone ranger.
I wasn't the lone ranger. Yeah. In fact, there was
(12:24):
in China, where at that time they were investing more
in their research than we were in I don't know,
there was seemed to be a shift in where the
hot spots of research were in the world, and the
Chinese were investing in their research and agriculture and forestry,
and they made this big, great breakthrough that these networks exist.
These plants are not only sending resources back and forth,
(12:46):
but there's that they're warning each other about these dangers.
So that warning and aid system was actually developed by
a postdoc who came to work with me, and she
started out with tomato plants and then we moved that
work into the forest and said this is happening for us.
And so when that happened, I felt like the whole
thing kind of relaxed and I was able to ask
more and more questions without so much negative criticism. You've
(13:10):
talked about how at certain times it was hard to
get funding for your research. How did you overcome that?
And just I have to ask you think it was
different because you're a woman, scientist and it's I feel
like science is still largely male dominated field. Yeah, I mean,
funding is always hard to get right as a scientist.
It's like one of the jobs you have. We all
(13:32):
have multiple jobs as as a scientist. You know, you
get funding, you do your research, you publish your research,
you teach, you contribute to the community. So that funding
part is just a major part of our jobs. And
the success rate of funding, no matter who you are,
male or female is low often, so you can apply
for grants where you get there's like a ten or
fifteen percent success rate, and so it's it can get
(13:54):
really discouraging if you've got rejections after rejection and you
put all that effort in, I say that overall, I've
been pretty successful. Um, I've been happy with my success.
I don't feel like in the funding that there's discrimination
against me because I'm female. I think that there's other
things where there is. I think that there's definitely things
(14:16):
I could point to where I feel like my femaleness
has created complexity, But I don't think the funding part
is part of it. Unfortunate in that way. What are
those areas that you would point to, you know, I
think part of it. Well, when it comes to application
of the work and acceptance of the things that we
(14:37):
just talked about. I think that that early criticism of
my work. You know, all of those scientists were men,
almost all of them, and I think that they were
even though they might not have said in their minds, oh,
you know, Susanne came in and did this and stole
my thunder or showed what I wasn't finding. I think
there was some of that going on in that, right.
(14:58):
You can't help but think of it because they're all men, right,
and you're a woman, and so I think it's a
natural thing to feel that and so and I think
that exists. And and then when it comes to the
application of the work, I've heard all the things said
behind my back, right, like you know, this fairy, fairy
mystical who would ever think that trees talk to each other?
(15:20):
Good grief? I mean people say that today, right. I
don't think they would have criticized me quite as much
if I was a man. And then, of course how
I respond is also important. You know, when when I
first started receiving these criticisms, I didn't really know how
to handle it. And this I'm trying to teach my
students is how to have a thick skin, right, how
(15:42):
do you deal with those criticisms that you know, we're
a little bit underhanded and it is a skill. I think.
What's so shocking. I think for me and a me
probably listening to this is you know, you would think,
we know this happens in business. We know like certain
industries are cut throat, but we wouldn't ex fact that,
you know, forestry and the study of trees could also
(16:04):
be so cut through. And I think it just shows
us that there's always going to be cynics. There's always
going to be kind of haters, we call them, and
how you manage the reaction to that is probably similar
across all of these different fields. So how did you manage? So?
At first, it was really hurtful, and I wanted to
(16:25):
hide and leave the field, and especially because I was
having my children, which is normal for women that they're
going through the stuff while they're having their children. And
my reaction was, I don't want anything to do with this.
I just want to raise my kids. And then I
I had a great boss, a man Alan Wise, and
he protected me in so many ways and and advocated
(16:47):
for me, and that was so important. I don't think
I would have survived without him. So girls, you know,
coming up and women coming up through these fields need that, right,
they need that support and camaraderie. And I think as
women especially, you know, when you're in a field like forest,
you're you're like one of the few, and you don't
have that network around you because you're the only one.
(17:09):
It just makes it a million times harder. And so
you know, I learned from Alan like him mentoring me
and modeling to me as a man, like a real
you know, a real man like he wasn't really thinking
about that, I don't think so much as protecting me,
but I learned so much from it. And then I've
taught my students, and so it's so important, you know,
(17:31):
to emulate or to model to your students the strength
and how to how to show strength when you're dealing
with controversy and criticism and so over the years, yeah,
I got hurt many, many, many times, and I still
get hurt, but now I feel like I have enough
support around me, and I'm confident with what I've found
(17:51):
because we've just repeated the experiments so many times, and
then so many labs around the world. And then yes,
there are still gaps in our knowledge, but I know
that you know, this is part science and we just
keep building. It's the mentorship, right, This is what's been
missing for women, is the mentorship is slowly coming on.
And then just that network of you know, like my
(18:12):
male colleagues, you know they would they just won't teach
that at extra course, or they just will not pay
attention to that criticism, or they'll just go talk to
their buddy and say, uh, they don't have to deal
with it like we do. Right, we have to learn
it from scratch, and we have to find our mentors,
and there's not very many of them out there, so
(18:33):
we've got to you know, find the mentors, find the support,
and then build your skin and do good work. And
now for a quick break. One thing that's really interesting,
kind of injecta position of talking about self doubt or
you know, being held back, is that you have taken
something that seems inaccessible to a lot of people, which
is for a science psychology, right, and you have translated
(18:56):
it in a way that is just mesmerizing through I
think largely. And now you have a book. But before
Ted talks How did you come about doing your first
TED talk? How did that happen? Yeah, that's a great question.
So you know, I grew up a really shy kid,
to the point I could hardly speak right, Like, I
was so afraid to even speak. And I'll get to
(19:17):
the story quickly. But I got to high school and
I couldn't speak in public or anything. I was so afraid.
And I remember then getting into university and I had
to do this speaking presentation where and the instructor didn't
know what he was doing. But what he would do
is he say, Okay, get up on the stage and
I'm going to give you one word, and you need
to give a talk. And so I got up on
(19:39):
the stage and my word was dog like. It couldn't
get any easier than that. I had a dog. And
I got up there and I froze and I was
so embarrassed and humiliated, and I went and sat down
and I just I was just like, And then I
sat to myself, you know, in the evening, and I said,
you can't go through life this way. You have to
overcome this. And so I would say, just imagine yourself
(20:01):
doing well and be prepared next time, you know, being
prepared was super important for me. I couldn't do it
off the cuff like that, and so I just gradually
made myself do more and more and more. And I
wasn't very good at it at first, right, Like, you
have to learn that skill. You have to put the
time in and be prepared. And then I remember one
time I gave this talk and I thought I was terrible,
(20:23):
and this guy said, you know, you were really good
at that, and I thought, but it was so important
that he said that to me, right, And I'll always
remember that that hell, he had that little bit of encouragement.
And then eventually, you know, I got asked to do
this Ted talk and I had just actually got I
got asked, and then I got cancer, and so I
had to actually cancel the talk. The first time I
(20:45):
got asked because I couldn't go to New York, I
was in chemo, and I remember writing to them and
I said, well, I could try, but I'm bald, and
they said, okay, let's just put it off for now.
And so then they rebooked me for the next year,
and I went to New Orleans and I gave a
Ted youth talk, and I was so afraid and my
hair was you know, I had lost all my hair,
but it was growing back. It had come in silver
(21:07):
like it was gray, and it was really short, and
I was so self conscious. And I was also had
chemo brain and I couldn't remember the words. Chemo brain.
That makes you like you can't remember anything, It's like
having dementia. And so my girlfriend Mary, we went to
New Orleans and we stayed in that hotel room and
(21:29):
she made me practice over and over and over and
over again. I must have practiced my talk a hundred
times and she was just like, I'm so sick of this,
but I'm going to make you do it one more time.
And I managed to get up on that stage and
do it. And I remember too that the Ted guy,
I can't remember his name, but he was so enthusiastic
and as soon as my talk was done, he jumped
(21:52):
up and he shouted and he said yeah because he
knew how hard it was for me, and that little
bit of encouragement, I went, oh, thank goodness. And then
I got asked to go to the big Ted stage,
which was amazing, right, and and again I worked really
really hard on that and I got my brother in
law who is a cinematographer, Bill Heath, and he helped
me with the story, creating the script. That took a
(22:14):
long time. I worked with the Ted people, and then
Mary came with me again, my partner, and we went
to Bev and we got a hotel room for a
week and she made me practice and practice practice until
she was so sick of it again, and I went
up and did it. How did it deal when you
were on stage and people are literally cheering when they
(22:37):
hear you know, kind of the I was watching one
of your Ted talks and you get to the point where, like,
so trees do talk and people are just cheering. How
did that deal? It was great? It was so amazing,
you know what the most amazing moment was in that
Ted talk. I mean, the cheering was great, but I
got about halfway through and my mind went blank. And
(22:59):
you don't see us in the recording of the Ted talk,
right because they edited that out. But my mind went
like I was so scared. And I stood there and
I looked at the audience and I could see Mary
out there and she was grasping her seque and the
people in the front row, we're going, you know, you
(23:19):
can do it, you can do it. And then all
of a sudden I remembered and I just kept going
looking at it. Right. No, No, not at all, incredible,
that's incredible. TED talks are terrifying to give. But you
have you have to be organized and just memorize your
talk and just go do it. Yep. And Mary had
(23:40):
the right hunch, which was the more you do it,
the easier it will be. So tell us about your
family life. Well, I have two daughters, Hannah and Nova
there twenty three and twenty one now, and so I
raised my kids with my husband, Dawn, and we split up,
you know, when when they were twelve and fourteen, and
(24:00):
right at the time I got cancer. So a lot
happened at that time, and so then at that point,
you know, we were in two separate households. But up
until then we were just a regular family, except that
I was. No, it wasn't really regular because I was
working and living in Vancouver and my family lived in Nelson,
which was nine hours away. It wasn't always like that,
(24:21):
but we were. Don and I were when I went
to the university, and I described this in my book.
But I got the job at the university and he
didn't want to go, which you know, he didn't just
didn't want to live in the big city and he
didn't want me working all the time, and he could
see it, and so he was really resistant, but eventually
relented and we went, but he still hated it there.
(24:43):
So we we lasted four years in the city, and
then we moved to Nelson, which is where I grew up. Basically,
I grew up in this area. This is the rainforest
I grew up and he loved it too, and so
then at that point we just started I started doing
this commute, and so my family life was like I
think I described it as time lapse photography, because I
(25:03):
had to be teaching in Vancouver during the week and
then getting home to my kids on the weekends and
trying to juggle this, and it was just it was
really really hard. And I remember thinking, you know, this
is how I imagine I would raise my family, Like
I just wanted to be there all the time. But
I also couldn't imagine giving up my career and all
the work I was, you know, my discoveries. It was
(25:26):
just an impossible choice. And so I thought, well, I
can do it. I can do everything, right, I can
do it all. And I tried and I did, but
then I got sick, right, it made me sick because
it was too much. Wow, And did you ever consider
having the kids with you in Vancouver and having Dawn's
day and Nelson? You know, we went through a lot
(25:48):
of fights about that. Yes, that was part of the conversation.
In the end, we decided that I would do this
commuting and he would go with the girls. And so
how did that decision come about? It was a long
process and it was very difficult, and it made me
ill really, and honestly, it maybe ill. You know, the
(26:08):
choices are so hard. It's so hard. Oh my gosh,
it makes me cry if I look back and what
I've done it again? I don't know. You know, how
do your girls look at your career now? You know?
I asked my girls a few years ago. I said, Yeah,
this was really funny when they were applying to go
to university and Hannah had to write this essay on,
(26:30):
you know, challenges in her life, like what were the
hard things in her life? And she said, mom, I
don't know what they want because I don't think I've
had any challenges in my life. And I was I think, well,
you could talk about that. You know, your mom wasn't
there part of the time, and she said, she says, actually,
I'm proud of that, that we were like that. I
wouldn't change anything. And so I think the girls are fine. Right,
(26:53):
I am who I am, and they are who they are.
Not only fine, but they're clearly super proud of you. Right.
That goes beyond fine. It's pretty extraordinary, beyond fine in fact.
And now they're both following in my footsteps. They're both
studying for US at university. That's amazing, that's incredible. I
think that as moms that you know, we we feel
(27:16):
like we make all these mistakes, and we do make mistakes,
and we make choices that maybe I don't know, maybe
sometimes it's not the right choice. But I mean we
always say cliche kids are resilient. They are resilient within
certain bounds. And you know, I think that I really
pushed the boundaries, but they were still Okay. It's a
great lesson. You've brought up cancer a few times. How
(27:39):
did you manage getting through that while you continue to work,
while you continue to raise your kids. Yeah, it was
really tough. So I got cancer and I you know,
I had to talk to the kids, and so did
my husband. And really Don was really great with this, right.
Don is a really positive fall other and very involved
(28:01):
in their lives, and and he just said to them,
you know, Mom's gonna be okay. And he said that
to me too, You're gonna be okay. You're tough. And
of course I had lots of doubts. Anybody would write
it's a you know, it's a deadly disease and people
die from it, and I could die from it too,
you know, but I got to this point part way
(28:22):
through my treatments where you know, my my doctor was
very good, and my family was raised here and Mary
was here, and my friends and and I thought, you know,
as long as I have support, even if I die,
it's okay. You know. I got to that point. And
once I got to that point, it got easier, like
I wasn't so fearful. And then, you know, when I
(28:44):
got to the point where I finished the chemo, and
you know, and the my doctor says, Suzanne, you know,
it might come back, it might not, but you're just
going to have to embrace this, this thing, this mystery
of life. And and so somehow I managed to do that,
and and I've carried it with me and it's also
informed my work, right, Like I started asking different questions
(29:05):
in my work because I understood my mortality better and
what it meant to me as a human being. What
does your mortality mean? And what do you want to
leave behind? How do you want to contribute to this world?
What can you do? And so I just became more
focused on asking the right questions that were mattered to me.
And it turned out that intuition and that thought was important.
(29:26):
You know, it's important for me to pay attention to
my experience and bring my experience to my science. Tell
us about Mary, so she would go, Oh, don't say anything.
Mary's my partner. We don't live together. She lives in Oregon.
She was a chemist, she's retired now, and we were similar. Right.
(29:49):
She loves the outdoors and she's a good listener. I
think that's what else can I say about her? How
did you mean? So? When I was a graduate student
at Oregon stay, Don and I had a duplex and
our next door neighbor was Mary, and so we got
to be friends, but nothing there was no I mean,
(30:10):
I was married to Don, I went on to have
children with Don and Mary and I remained friends, but
I moved back to Canada and so we just had
sort of like this distant relationship, you know, friendship. And then,
you know, as my marriage started to fall apart because
the strain was too much, right, it was too much
to be commuting. The marriage couldn't last under those conditions.
(30:33):
And so then, you know, as it was coming to
a close, Mary was had reached out to me and
we just started doing stuff together, going for hikes, and
it was really healing for me. And then you know,
that's how it happened. I mean, it was unexpected, it
was It's a beautiful thing and I love her very
much and we're still together. And now it's kind of
(30:54):
hard because I haven't seen her for almost you know,
since the beginning of COVID. She was across the border.
I live in Canada, so we always see each other
as on zoom right now. But I'm hopeful that that
will come to an end soon. But we're one of
those couples that got caught, you know, in different places. Yeah,
that's brutal. Yeah it would have been more brutal if
(31:15):
we were twenty, but you know we're sixty. We're both
sixty now, so we're sure about it. So what is
next for you in terms of your research? What are
you hoping to discover? Well, you know, I'm a very
practical and applied person, which which means that I'd like
(31:36):
my work to be have meaning and to have traction.
And so I started this project called the Mother Tree
Project with my best friend who was Gene Roach. She's
another forester i've you know, we've been friends since we
were twenty, and she manages the project and I lead it.
And it's basically taking all the things we found out
about tree communication and kinship and transmitting resources and signals
(31:59):
and information and knowledge and and applying it in real forestry.
So it's how do you protect mother trees which are
the center of the forest, the center of the connections,
so that they continue to help heal the land. And
the practice now generally is clear cut, which means take
all the big trees. You know, people love the big
(32:21):
trees because they bring lots of income. Um, they're valuable.
You can make big things from them, So they're the
first thing that people or foresters want to cut down.
But they're also the most important part of the network,
and they're also really important for all kinds of ecosystem functions,
including carbon storage and biodiversity and like the big things
(32:42):
that make forests work. And so I'm trying to get
them to shift away from clear cutting to saving these
big old trees. Um in, you can still harvest trees,
but but save the big ones so that they can
bootstrap the ecosystem back to you know, to recover. And
so that's an uphill battle because it's really hard to
change a practice. And it would be like telling like
(33:05):
Big Egg not to use fertilizers and herbicides because they've
always done that, at least for the past fifty years.
In forestry, it's the same we've always clear cut well,
and I'm saying you need to leave these big old
trees behind because they're the legacy that's what moves the
ecosystem forward. They've got the genes that lived through those
past climate upheavals. They've got the micro rhizes that are
(33:25):
the old girls. Microizes they house these old plants that
we need to feel niches and and so it's a
completely different way of managing and viewing forests. So anyway,
I wanted to show people by having this experiment, I
want to show them that you could do things differently.
And I wanted to demonstrate or I wanted to find
(33:46):
out how do we keep these trees in different patterns
and amounts and configurations in different kinds of forests that
had different climate regions or climatic pressures, so that the
forest would be resilient as they go forward. And so
this project is called the Mother Tree Project. I spend
most of my time on it. Almost all my grad
students now are working on that. It's the biggest experiment
(34:09):
I've ever done. So that's one main focus. The other
main focus is I'm working with some Aboriginal people on
cycling of nitrogen and salmon derived nitrogen in forests and
what that means to forest productivity. And also just how
you know that connection between people and trees and fungi
(34:29):
and salmon is so important. Those connections are so important
and when you sever those connections, things fall apart. And
in that project we call it the Salmon Forest Project.
You know, basically, you know, the salmon management by you know,
our governments is really broken and our salmon populations have
(34:50):
plummeted to you know, a few percent of pre colonization levels.
And the thing is that the Aboriginal people had really
sustainable ways of managing some through their fishing technologies, and
they actually enhanced salmon populations through their technologies. Whereas you know,
our modern fisheries are you know, the colonization fisheries have decimated. It.
(35:11):
It's just like not taking a holistic approach at all.
You know, it's due to climate change and damming of
the rivers and destroying habitat and there's you know, many reasons.
And so I'm working with the Aboriginal people to try
and bring attention to that there are different ways to
do things. You know, there are more conservationist ways that
(35:32):
actually enhance the resources, enhance the salmon, and then the
salmon enhanced the forest. But if we break those linkages,
if we break the cycle, we break the system. But
the system is resilient, it is inherently resilient. But we
can actually really crash the system if we're really exploited,
which is what we're doing. And so yeah, I want
(35:53):
to again demonstrate that there are other ways to do
things in the land. And now for a quick rate, right,
you want to start the lightning round. What book are
you reading right now? I'm reading several, but Sapiens is
one of them. If you weren't studying trees, you would
be studying glaciers because they're dynamic and I love to
(36:17):
be on them. They're disappearing and they hold clues to
past climates and they will help us understand future climates
and now to how to deal with them. Whereas one
place in the world you've wanted to travel but have
not yet visited, Well, I've always wanted to go to
Old Crow. Old Crow is in the Yukon. It's in
the Mackenzie Plateau or the Mackenzie Delta is above the
(36:41):
Arctic Circle. It's where the first human habitation record of
it in North America is. But it's an indigenous community.
It's a Gwitchen community. They're very much one with the land,
and they're very much affected by climate change. And there's
a little story that I just love for the gwitch
and people that I read to my students. So anyway,
(37:03):
I've always wanted to go there. Who leaves you starstruck?
Rachel Maddow. I love Rachel Maddow. Well. I started listening
to her during the Trump period because I didn't know
about her before that, and I thought, this woman knows
her ship, and she is so good on camera, and
she's so personal and so well researched, and her compass
(37:27):
is set right at least according to me. I admire her.
She's got a thick skin. I can learn from her
like that. Lou has been listening this whole time, and
he offers the male perspective on the show. So he
comes in with a final question. Hi, Susanne, So I
actually have a friend who has been she's been called
(37:48):
crazy by her family, by her friends, and she's a musician,
she's very talented, but she went to Joshua Tree and
she's now started to study trees and everybody thinks she's
crazy because she said exactly what you said, that they
can talk. But you mentioned something that that really stuck
with me, And I'm wondering, why aren't humans starting to
(38:10):
see the correlation with keeping the planet the way it's
supposed to be that would benefit us in the long run.
Why do you think that these people are not listening
to your information and to your work. You know, I
think a lot of people are listening, actually, but it
hasn't gained traction that's what you're getting at, Like why
isn't it actually affecting policy and practices, and why isn't
(38:34):
our environmental climate change being you know what, why aren't
we solving this problem? And to me, there are clear
ways to do this, and why aren't we acting on it?
And people, lots of people talk about this like we've
evolved to deal with sudden problems, right, immediate problems, and
climate change is a long term problem. And when you
have such a global problem, it's hard to wrap your
(38:57):
head around what do you do? And so there's that,
but there's also of like, you know, people get stuck
in the way they do things right, like we've always
done it this way, We've always clerk cut, we've always
you know, and it's hard to change the momentum of
that infrastructure and that old way of thinking. But it happens,
piece by piece. It does happen. And I think that,
you know, all of the media attention, the books, the
(39:20):
Ted talks, these interviews, is all part of changing minds.
And I study systems, right, I study ecosystems, and systems
are built on relationships between different parts. So like in
a society, we have systems to write our society um
is based on our relationships. It's the same thing in
all systems ecosystems too, It's on relationships between all the parts.
(39:45):
And the way that change happens is it's slow relationships
that are kind of constantly adjusting, and you can get
building slow level changes, almost inaudible, almost imperceptible, and then
suddenly you can get the these tipping points where the
system will start to change really rapidly. So putting in
you know, the right policies and the right practices in place,
(40:08):
you know, climate policy where we're trying to decarbonize the future,
or we change land use changes, we say we're not
going to cut down old growth for us anymore. Simple
policies get put in place and people start to make changes,
and then all of a sudden there's a big shift.
And so I think we're in that slow phase right
now where people are just kind of catching on and saying, oh, yeah,
(40:28):
you know what, there are other ways to do things,
and I'm gonna we're gonna pressure our governments and watch
Joe Biden just said we're not We're not going to
have any more you know, combustion engines and on on
the roads after those are all super important changes and
we all get on you know, if we can get
on board with the positive changes, then it affects big change.
(40:49):
So I think it's coming. It's slow. I think we've
got to keep pushing, right, we keep all these little
things matter, all the little interviews, all the policies people
are putting in place around the world. Even COVID matters,
right because it showed us that we can affect change
at a global scale. We can do it. Do you
think your your mother tree research will help fuel the change.
(41:13):
I think it can. I think that it's one part
of it. You know, there's other places that demonstrations are needed,
but the mother tree research, if people are become aware
of it, then they can you know, push for those changes.
If the mother tree research itself won't affect any change, right,
it's the attention to it that makes the difference. Like
we can do, like I always say, like I can
(41:35):
do lots of science. I could just spend my whole
life in the academic world in my little office and
churn out tons of journal articles. I can get lots
of recognition and rewards and all that stuff. But if
it might never get any attention if I don't do
that next thing, which is get the word out. That's
what you guys do, and and I'm part of that too,
(41:57):
that part is just as important. So the mother tree research, Yeah,
we're getting great stuff. We're getting really cool information, like
if you click out of for us, you lose half
the carbon right off the bat, Like it seems like
a no brainer. But we've published the paper showing that.
And if if we can get the word out, then
people will pressure their governments to change. And and that's
(42:18):
happening right. I think that this what we're doing here
with the book and the Ted talks and all that,
it is motivating change in how people think. And one
thing we didn't talk about is the mother tree research
or the about connection and collaboration and communities. In traditional forestry,
the focus has been so much on how do you
(42:39):
manage competition in these for us, so you know the
way we managed you know, you know, weeding and pruning
and trying to cultivate the dominant trees and you know,
treating each tree as a competitor that's out to get
make its own way, to be a self made tree.
And all of our forestry practices are geared around this
(43:00):
right to create more space for those dominant trees. And
it's very you know, that's a male dominated research that
went into that. Women weren't really part of that, and
it's shaped how we manage our force. That's what we do.
It's all this I call it one eyed seeing. It's
like we're looking at the force from with one eye closed.
(43:20):
And so then when my work came around, it shows
actually there's all this collaboration in forest, that there's networks
that go on, that there's all the sharing, and they're
just like, that can't be true. But it actually opens
up the other eye, right, it's the female perspective, and
we need to integrate these two things, the male and
the female for a more holistic practice that will honor
(43:43):
all the connections and the competition and all the multifaceted
and brilliant ways that we communicate with each other and
interact with each other. But so far, you know, forest
management has been so much about about the dominance and
competition and you've got to manage it and foster's dominance,
and I'm just like, you know, this is the opposite
(44:05):
of what I think we should be doing. That we
should be managing the whole ecosystem. It is more holistic,
right to look at it in these connections and relationships,
and that you know that all of them matter, all
the trees and creatures matter. It's such a lesson for
all of us who them, because who would think that,
you know, diversity of thought, right, there's so much study
(44:26):
on diversity of thought in different fields, but who would
think that it even contributes to how we treat our
ecosystem and how we see nature. It does in a
huge way. Yeah. Or the idea that we can dominate nature, right,
you know, I remember when you know that one of
there was one American election and Mitt Romney was running
in a primary to be the Republican nominee and he
(44:50):
said something that was like he said, the role of
man is to dominate nature. And I thought that is
so wrong. How do we get to that point? It
is not to dominate nature. It's to be one end
with an all part of nature. That that's all we are.
We're not here to dominate nature. And that's but that
(45:11):
thinking is so pervasive and we don't even realize that's
how we think. It's it's about exploitation and domination and
that runs right through how we you know, we'd our forests,
how we space them, how we plant them with single
species that we think are going to bring us more money.
You know, it's clear cutting our old girls forests and
make way, it's all linked in there. It's all wrapped
(45:35):
up together, and it's got to get untangled or at
least get this other perspectives in there, so that we
have a better outcome, we have a better chance surviving.
I feel like we could have talked to Susanne for hours.
I would have loved to have been her student as well.
I know that immediately about her. I mean I just
(45:56):
loved the whole talk, from the very beginning when she
talks about spending her childhood in the forest. I mean,
that's truly amazing. But also, I mean what really was
amazing was the story we got to write, which is
a story of how she basically said she gave herself
cancer because she had to choose. She was forced to
choose between her career and her children, literally physically choose
(46:20):
between them. We talked about it metaphorically, like oh, I
can't be home for dinner, I'm on a business trip.
But this was wildly different, and it sounds like her
husband kind of forced her to choose that, but it
was really exceptional. I thought, just to hear about how
her kids perceive her career now and perhaps there's no
better sort of display of how they feel, and the
(46:41):
fact that they're both going into her field amazing. Sam,
we talked about that a lot in terms of being
working mothers and what that means for our daughters and
your son, and I think, like, that's just it's a
remarkable endorsement of who she is as a mother. Lou
what did you think? I was just fascinated that she
had so much information about trees. Straight up. I was
(47:03):
just like, wow, Yeah, you guys said, yeah, this is
this is a person who knows trees, And I'm like, wow,
I like fungus talking and you know, them like giving
off a smell. It's like, you know, somebody you see
out of a fantasy book. Will you ever look at
a tree the same way again? You know, there's some
(47:25):
trees are my block that I've just been wondering how
they do it, you know, because we just had a
whole crazy time where I'm like now paying more attention
because COVID has taken away a lot of distractions so
I go outside in the wintertime the leaves are all gone,
and now in the springtime it's just blossom and it's
like really full of leaves. And I'm like, how did
you all do that? Nobody's like watering you and fertilizing
(47:49):
you and none of that. You know, they just have
their own ecosystem. And she broke it down how it
actually works. And I'm just like, I even had a pillow.
I'm sitting here just like, Okay, this is the education.
She really talked me some stuff. I love that. That's awesome.
I can't remember any of the any of the proper terms.
I have to go google them because there are some
really long words. But yeah, it was. It was very
(48:11):
very educational. It's pretty awesome. Thanks for listening to What's
Her Story with Sam and Amy. We would so appreciate
if you would leave a review wherever you get your podcasts,
and of course connect with us on social media at
What's Her Story of podcast. What's Her Story with Sam
and Amy is powered by my company, The Riveter at
(48:32):
the Riveter dot c O in Sam's company, park Place
Payments at park place payments dot com. Thanks to our
producer Stacy para our social media manager, Phoebe crane Fest
and our male perspective Lou Burns
Hi, I'm Sam Edis and I'm Amy Nelson. Welcome to
What's Her Story? With Sam and Amy. This is a
show about the world's most remarkable women. They're professional and
personal journeys. Together, we'll hear from gold medalists, best selling authors,
and leaders of the world's most iconic brands. Today, we're
(00:24):
thrilled to welcome Susanne Simar onto the show. She's a
forest scientist and five million people have watched her TED talks.
She's also the author of Finding the Mother Tree Discovering
the Wisdom of the Forest. So, Suzanne, when did you
first fall in love with trees? I think that a
(00:44):
child is surrounded by love from the moment they're born.
But falling in love with trees was just a natural
thing because I grew up right around them, right in
the forest, and so they were just part of the
fabric of my life. I loved my family, I love
my trees. When you they they were that you grew
up in the forest, what exactly did that mean? Paint
a picture for us of what your childhood was like. Yeah,
(01:06):
so my parents came from the Inland rainforest, and so
that's where we spent even though we didn't live exactly
in it all the time. We spent all of our
summers and springs and falls in these rainforests. What is
a rainforest? They're full of big trees, first of all,
and in our case they were cedars and hemlocks. So
(01:26):
these giant cathedrals of forests and full of like lots
of different plants and animals. Um, they're just really complex
and amazing places. But I never thought of it that
way because that's just where I grew up. But they
are like those iconic old growth rainforests, but they were
(01:47):
on the interior. They're not on the coast. It's in
the interior where I grew up as more like closer
to the rocky mountains. And so as the you know,
as the weather moves across the mountains, it dumps a
lot of rain in those areas. And so that's what
races inland rainforests. What does it mean to spend a
day in the rainforest? So you would wake up as
a child and explain that relationship to us. Well, So
(02:11):
in the summers when we were at my grandparents on
my dad's side, we were in a place called Maple Lake,
and we actually lived on a houseboat, a logger's house
boat right on the lake, so right in this beautiful,
huge lake full of soft, poppy water. I say ploppy
because it rained a lot. And I always remember the
PLoP PLoP PLoP sound of the rain on the lake
(02:32):
and of course on the leaves in the bush, you know,
the big Devil's club and the big leaves of the
understory plants. It was wet and rainy and not all
the time, also sunny days, but we would so we
would live on this house boat that was built by
my grandfather for housing loggers who logged in the area.
And in the summers my family would move in and
(02:54):
it was moored on the shore of Cottonwood Bay at
Maple Lake. And so we spent half our time in
the water and half our time in the forest on
the shore, and you know, just playing like as I
as a kid, and my brother and sister and I
would you know, we especially love making rafts, and we
would make these rickety old rass with old logs that
(03:15):
have fallen from the forest and then go around into
different bays and creeks and just play and make forts
and play in the bush. That's what it was like.
It sounds so idyllic. I mean, Amy and I are
now raising our kids among so many screens. That sounds
like a fantasy way to grow up, was it? Well,
it wasn't to me because that was all I knew.
(03:36):
But now I realized, like, most kids don't get to
grow up that way now, but they you know, my kids,
for example, they did grow up in the forests around here,
not quite as idyllic as my childhood, but because they
grew up in the screen area era as well, and
they need to know those things, but they still have
their life outside, so I think that it's still pretty
(03:58):
idyllic for sure. You're known as the person who discovered
that trees talk to each other. How did that happen? Well,
I wasn't the only person who's discovered I'll just say
that off the bat. You know, people have looked at
it in various ways, and I've certainly been one of
those people. But what I looked at, what I have
discovered in in my work is that in a forest
(04:22):
that the trees are all connected together by these special
fungi that are they're called micizal fungi, and they're kinds
of fungi that helped trees or help plants. They're called mutualists.
That means that the that the tree or the plant
provides photosynthe and exchange for nutrients and water that the
fungus gets from the soil. So it's a mutualistic relationship
(04:44):
and they connect plants together, and through those fungal highways,
trees and plants pass nutrients and water back and forth
between them, and so that's a kind of communication. That's
the talking that people talk about when they say, oh,
you've discovered how trees talk to each other. And when
I say I'm not the only one, it's because other
people are looking at this as well in different systems
(05:06):
around the world. I was just the first one to
discover it in forests. The other mode of conversation between trees.
In addition to these below ground fungal highways or telephone
lines you could think of them, we now know too
that trees and I didn't do this research. Other people
actually in California and Oregon did this work where they
(05:26):
actually communicate through the air, and so trees will emit
or send off chemical signals that are they're called volatile
organic chemicals or compounds, and you know they're the smells
that you smell in the forest when you walk in
the forest. Their signals, and they can signal each other
whether there's any kind of danger in the woods, like
if there's an infestation by insects. They can warn their neighbors.
(05:50):
Even the same species are different species of these sort
of enemies in the forest, or at least these herbivores.
So that's another mode of commun occasion that I haven't studied,
but that has been going on kind of parallel to
my own work. At the same time, they warn them,
how so when a tree is injured. So for example,
(06:11):
I have specifically looked at these weren't budworms or my
students did that are natural enemies are herbivores in the forest.
The bud words chew on the needles of Douglas furs
and pines and so on, especially Douglas fur, which is
what I studied, and the douglas for when it gets
chewed on like that, or even when if you went
with a parasits and clipped off the needles, which we
(06:33):
did as well, the trees respond, right. It's like if
somebody punched you in the face, you would go and
you would go, oh, my jaw, you know, and have
a response. Trees have a response to and it's a
hormonal biochemical response, and it triggers that chewing by a
herbivord triggers a biochemical cascade of reactions that basically, you know,
(06:54):
starts on the leaves and ends up in the roots.
And what we found is that these warning or these
chemicals would then emit through through the microizal network and
into other neighbors. So then the neighbors would receive those
messages and it actually triggered them to upregulate defense genes.
So this is in their genetics there their RNA. Actually
(07:16):
they upregulate their RNA and start producing defense enzymes, and
then those enzymes protected that neighbor against herbivores that would
attack it. So you know, you could attack those neighbors
then that were upregulated with the same insect and they
were able to resist that attack. Some people call it
a warning an aid system, So the attack plant warns
(07:38):
its neighbors and helps them. That's the warning and aid,
but others kind of think of it as the neighboring
plant eavesdropping on the status of the donor or the
attack plant, and so you know which is it Is
it a warning system or is it an eaves dropping system.
I think it's a combination of both. Like both plants
are involved in this communication that's going on. So it's
(08:00):
funny that you kind of downplay, Oh, I just discovered
it in forests, likes it's still pretty extraordinary, right for
those of us that are not in your field, What
are the sort of domino effects of understanding this, What
other things does that lead to? That's a really good question.
Those domino effects are still happening. So at first when
(08:23):
I first did this work, I mean it was exciting
because you know, I was the first one to show
that this kind of networking and transmission of resources, this
communication occurs in real forests. Prior to that, there had
been some work done in the United Kingdom by a
scientist called David Reid who had looked at the laboratory
and found, you know, that these micro rhizal funge i
(08:45):
could connect pine seedlings and little pots in the lab
and that carbon could move from one to another. So
we already knew that, but I took that sort of
lab study and said, does this actually exist or occur
in real ecosystems? And I was I've always worked in forest,
so naturally that's where I tested this. And so when
I did that work, I basically kind of verified what
(09:07):
David read had found, but took it that, you know,
several steps further. I verified it happened in forest. I
found out that these communication is a two way communication.
It's not just one plant sending resources to another. Is
actually they go back and forth. That these plants are
in a tango right there, in a conversation. And and
I also was able to figure out, you know, that
(09:29):
plants are kind of our main drivers of this. They
kind of have control over this. I found that when
I shaded a plant that more carbon went to it.
It wasn't the fungus itself that was controlling it, it
was the plants. But I mean, really, in nature, everything
works together, you know, the plants, the fungi, the soil.
So I'm sure that you know, further studies and have
(09:50):
verified since then that the fungi actually are involved in
this communication as well. Okay, so then what happened. I
got that published in Nature, which was a big deal.
So there was a lot of attention, good and bad.
So a lot of good attention because it got you
know public, but there was a lot of skepticism about
my work, and I think there still is, right, Like, so,
(10:11):
the main skepticism that came up in the academic world
was they just kind of started picking apart my work, right, saying, well,
you didn't do this right, and you didn't do that right.
And so I actually, at that point in my career,
I was in my mid thirties. At that point, I
kind of got really turned off by it, by this
constant harassment, you know, this nitpicking of my work. And
(10:33):
I could see that it was a debate that had
been going on for quite a while by between other researchers,
and I was sort of like, I kind of stumbled
into it, and I thought, I don't want to do
this anymore. And I was having my children at that time,
so it was doubly stressful. And then even the forest
industry and the government who I worked for, they were
also very negative about it, right, They thought, oh, I'm
(10:57):
trying to get them to change what they do, and
I'm too critical and and you know, and I shouldn't
be criticizing government policy and anyway, So at that point,
I was just like, you know what, I don't know
if it's worth it personally for me to keep pursuing this.
And then, you know, my kids grew up a little bit,
I got a different job in academia, and when I
(11:18):
got to academia, that was the place where I could
actually make my mark, was to continue that work. So
when you get into academia instead of government scientists, you
actually have to continue progressing your science, whereas in government
or industry you're supporting their policy. Basically, that's your sciences
to support their policy. So it was quite a different mindset,
and so I had more freedom. I still was you know,
(11:41):
I was interested in it, of course, but I was
also still really um you know that the questions were
so I don't know, it was stalled. I think the
whole field became stalled because people were still didn't believe
that these networks existed. They didn't believe that it had
the effect on plants, even though the evidence was gathering.
(12:03):
But I continued like a little bit with my students
and slowly built the story over the next decade. So
that's when I was in my forties and other labs
in the world started taking it up and making breakthroughs.
And then I thought, okay, you know now I can
continue on with this because you weren't a lone ranger.
I wasn't the lone ranger. Yeah. In fact, there was
(12:24):
in China, where at that time they were investing more
in their research than we were in I don't know,
there was seemed to be a shift in where the
hot spots of research were in the world, and the
Chinese were investing in their research and agriculture and forestry,
and they made this big, great breakthrough that these networks exist.
These plants are not only sending resources back and forth,
(12:46):
but there's that they're warning each other about these dangers.
So that warning and aid system was actually developed by
a postdoc who came to work with me, and she
started out with tomato plants and then we moved that
work into the forest and said this is happening for us.
And so when that happened, I felt like the whole
thing kind of relaxed and I was able to ask
more and more questions without so much negative criticism. You've
(13:10):
talked about how at certain times it was hard to
get funding for your research. How did you overcome that?
And just I have to ask you think it was
different because you're a woman, scientist and it's I feel
like science is still largely male dominated field. Yeah, I mean,
funding is always hard to get right as a scientist.
It's like one of the jobs you have. We all
(13:32):
have multiple jobs as as a scientist. You know, you
get funding, you do your research, you publish your research,
you teach, you contribute to the community. So that funding
part is just a major part of our jobs. And
the success rate of funding, no matter who you are,
male or female is low often, so you can apply
for grants where you get there's like a ten or
fifteen percent success rate, and so it's it can get
(13:54):
really discouraging if you've got rejections after rejection and you
put all that effort in, I say that overall, I've
been pretty successful. Um, I've been happy with my success.
I don't feel like in the funding that there's discrimination
against me because I'm female. I think that there's other
things where there is. I think that there's definitely things
(14:16):
I could point to where I feel like my femaleness
has created complexity, But I don't think the funding part
is part of it. Unfortunate in that way. What are
those areas that you would point to, you know, I
think part of it. Well, when it comes to application
of the work and acceptance of the things that we
(14:37):
just talked about. I think that that early criticism of
my work. You know, all of those scientists were men,
almost all of them, and I think that they were
even though they might not have said in their minds, oh,
you know, Susanne came in and did this and stole
my thunder or showed what I wasn't finding. I think
there was some of that going on in that, right.
(14:58):
You can't help but think of it because they're all men, right,
and you're a woman, and so I think it's a
natural thing to feel that and so and I think
that exists. And and then when it comes to the
application of the work, I've heard all the things said
behind my back, right, like you know, this fairy, fairy
mystical who would ever think that trees talk to each other?
(15:20):
Good grief? I mean people say that today, right. I
don't think they would have criticized me quite as much
if I was a man. And then, of course how
I respond is also important. You know, when when I
first started receiving these criticisms, I didn't really know how
to handle it. And this I'm trying to teach my
students is how to have a thick skin, right, how
(15:42):
do you deal with those criticisms that you know, we're
a little bit underhanded and it is a skill. I think.
What's so shocking. I think for me and a me
probably listening to this is you know, you would think,
we know this happens in business. We know like certain
industries are cut throat, but we wouldn't ex fact that,
you know, forestry and the study of trees could also
(16:04):
be so cut through. And I think it just shows
us that there's always going to be cynics. There's always
going to be kind of haters, we call them, and
how you manage the reaction to that is probably similar
across all of these different fields. So how did you manage? So?
At first, it was really hurtful, and I wanted to
(16:25):
hide and leave the field, and especially because I was
having my children, which is normal for women that they're
going through the stuff while they're having their children. And
my reaction was, I don't want anything to do with this.
I just want to raise my kids. And then I
I had a great boss, a man Alan Wise, and
he protected me in so many ways and and advocated
(16:47):
for me, and that was so important. I don't think
I would have survived without him. So girls, you know,
coming up and women coming up through these fields need that, right,
they need that support and camaraderie. And I think as
women especially, you know, when you're in a field like forest,
you're you're like one of the few, and you don't
have that network around you because you're the only one.
(17:09):
It just makes it a million times harder. And so
you know, I learned from Alan like him mentoring me
and modeling to me as a man, like a real
you know, a real man like he wasn't really thinking
about that, I don't think so much as protecting me,
but I learned so much from it. And then I've
taught my students, and so it's so important, you know,
(17:31):
to emulate or to model to your students the strength
and how to how to show strength when you're dealing
with controversy and criticism and so over the years, yeah,
I got hurt many, many, many times, and I still
get hurt, but now I feel like I have enough
support around me, and I'm confident with what I've found
(17:51):
because we've just repeated the experiments so many times, and
then so many labs around the world. And then yes,
there are still gaps in our knowledge, but I know
that you know, this is part science and we just
keep building. It's the mentorship, right, This is what's been
missing for women, is the mentorship is slowly coming on.
And then just that network of you know, like my
(18:12):
male colleagues, you know they would they just won't teach
that at extra course, or they just will not pay
attention to that criticism, or they'll just go talk to
their buddy and say, uh, they don't have to deal
with it like we do. Right, we have to learn
it from scratch, and we have to find our mentors,
and there's not very many of them out there, so
(18:33):
we've got to you know, find the mentors, find the support,
and then build your skin and do good work. And
now for a quick break. One thing that's really interesting,
kind of injecta position of talking about self doubt or
you know, being held back, is that you have taken
something that seems inaccessible to a lot of people, which
is for a science psychology, right, and you have translated
(18:56):
it in a way that is just mesmerizing through I
think largely. And now you have a book. But before
Ted talks How did you come about doing your first
TED talk? How did that happen? Yeah, that's a great question.
So you know, I grew up a really shy kid,
to the point I could hardly speak right, Like, I
was so afraid to even speak. And I'll get to
(19:17):
the story quickly. But I got to high school and
I couldn't speak in public or anything. I was so afraid.
And I remember then getting into university and I had
to do this speaking presentation where and the instructor didn't
know what he was doing. But what he would do
is he say, Okay, get up on the stage and
I'm going to give you one word, and you need
to give a talk. And so I got up on
(19:39):
the stage and my word was dog like. It couldn't
get any easier than that. I had a dog. And
I got up there and I froze and I was
so embarrassed and humiliated, and I went and sat down
and I just I was just like, And then I
sat to myself, you know, in the evening, and I said,
you can't go through life this way. You have to
overcome this. And so I would say, just imagine yourself
(20:01):
doing well and be prepared next time, you know, being
prepared was super important for me. I couldn't do it
off the cuff like that, and so I just gradually
made myself do more and more and more. And I
wasn't very good at it at first, right, Like, you
have to learn that skill. You have to put the
time in and be prepared. And then I remember one
time I gave this talk and I thought I was terrible,
(20:23):
and this guy said, you know, you were really good
at that, and I thought, but it was so important
that he said that to me, right, And I'll always
remember that that hell, he had that little bit of encouragement.
And then eventually, you know, I got asked to do
this Ted talk and I had just actually got I
got asked, and then I got cancer, and so I
had to actually cancel the talk. The first time I
(20:45):
got asked because I couldn't go to New York, I
was in chemo, and I remember writing to them and
I said, well, I could try, but I'm bald, and
they said, okay, let's just put it off for now.
And so then they rebooked me for the next year,
and I went to New Orleans and I gave a
Ted youth talk, and I was so afraid and my
hair was you know, I had lost all my hair,
but it was growing back. It had come in silver
(21:07):
like it was gray, and it was really short, and
I was so self conscious. And I was also had
chemo brain and I couldn't remember the words. Chemo brain.
That makes you like you can't remember anything, It's like
having dementia. And so my girlfriend Mary, we went to
New Orleans and we stayed in that hotel room and
(21:29):
she made me practice over and over and over and
over again. I must have practiced my talk a hundred
times and she was just like, I'm so sick of this,
but I'm going to make you do it one more time.
And I managed to get up on that stage and
do it. And I remember too that the Ted guy,
I can't remember his name, but he was so enthusiastic
and as soon as my talk was done, he jumped
(21:52):
up and he shouted and he said yeah because he
knew how hard it was for me, and that little
bit of encouragement, I went, oh, thank goodness. And then
I got asked to go to the big Ted stage,
which was amazing, right, and and again I worked really
really hard on that and I got my brother in
law who is a cinematographer, Bill Heath, and he helped
me with the story, creating the script. That took a
(22:14):
long time. I worked with the Ted people, and then
Mary came with me again, my partner, and we went
to Bev and we got a hotel room for a
week and she made me practice and practice practice until
she was so sick of it again, and I went
up and did it. How did it deal when you
were on stage and people are literally cheering when they
(22:37):
hear you know, kind of the I was watching one
of your Ted talks and you get to the point where, like,
so trees do talk and people are just cheering. How
did that deal? It was great? It was so amazing,
you know what the most amazing moment was in that
Ted talk. I mean, the cheering was great, but I
got about halfway through and my mind went blank. And
(22:59):
you don't see us in the recording of the Ted talk,
right because they edited that out. But my mind went
like I was so scared. And I stood there and
I looked at the audience and I could see Mary
out there and she was grasping her seque and the
people in the front row, we're going, you know, you
(23:19):
can do it, you can do it. And then all
of a sudden I remembered and I just kept going
looking at it. Right. No, No, not at all, incredible,
that's incredible. TED talks are terrifying to give. But you
have you have to be organized and just memorize your
talk and just go do it. Yep. And Mary had
(23:40):
the right hunch, which was the more you do it,
the easier it will be. So tell us about your
family life. Well, I have two daughters, Hannah and Nova
there twenty three and twenty one now, and so I
raised my kids with my husband, Dawn, and we split up,
you know, when when they were twelve and fourteen, and
(24:00):
right at the time I got cancer. So a lot
happened at that time, and so then at that point,
you know, we were in two separate households. But up
until then we were just a regular family, except that
I was. No, it wasn't really regular because I was
working and living in Vancouver and my family lived in Nelson,
which was nine hours away. It wasn't always like that,
(24:21):
but we were. Don and I were when I went
to the university, and I described this in my book.
But I got the job at the university and he
didn't want to go, which you know, he didn't just
didn't want to live in the big city and he
didn't want me working all the time, and he could
see it, and so he was really resistant, but eventually
relented and we went, but he still hated it there.
(24:43):
So we we lasted four years in the city, and
then we moved to Nelson, which is where I grew up. Basically,
I grew up in this area. This is the rainforest
I grew up and he loved it too, and so
then at that point we just started I started doing
this commute, and so my family life was like I
think I described it as time lapse photography, because I
(25:03):
had to be teaching in Vancouver during the week and
then getting home to my kids on the weekends and
trying to juggle this, and it was just it was
really really hard. And I remember thinking, you know, this
is how I imagine I would raise my family, Like
I just wanted to be there all the time. But
I also couldn't imagine giving up my career and all
the work I was, you know, my discoveries. It was
(25:26):
just an impossible choice. And so I thought, well, I
can do it. I can do everything, right, I can
do it all. And I tried and I did, but
then I got sick, right, it made me sick because
it was too much. Wow, And did you ever consider
having the kids with you in Vancouver and having Dawn's
day and Nelson? You know, we went through a lot
(25:48):
of fights about that. Yes, that was part of the conversation.
In the end, we decided that I would do this
commuting and he would go with the girls. And so
how did that decision come about? It was a long
process and it was very difficult, and it made me
ill really, and honestly, it maybe ill. You know, the
(26:08):
choices are so hard. It's so hard. Oh my gosh,
it makes me cry if I look back and what
I've done it again? I don't know. You know, how
do your girls look at your career now? You know?
I asked my girls a few years ago. I said, Yeah,
this was really funny when they were applying to go
to university and Hannah had to write this essay on,
(26:30):
you know, challenges in her life, like what were the
hard things in her life? And she said, mom, I
don't know what they want because I don't think I've
had any challenges in my life. And I was I think, well,
you could talk about that. You know, your mom wasn't
there part of the time, and she said, she says, actually,
I'm proud of that, that we were like that. I
wouldn't change anything. And so I think the girls are fine. Right,
(26:53):
I am who I am, and they are who they are.
Not only fine, but they're clearly super proud of you. Right.
That goes beyond fine. It's pretty extraordinary, beyond fine in fact.
And now they're both following in my footsteps. They're both
studying for US at university. That's amazing, that's incredible. I
think that as moms that you know, we we feel
(27:16):
like we make all these mistakes, and we do make mistakes,
and we make choices that maybe I don't know, maybe
sometimes it's not the right choice. But I mean we
always say cliche kids are resilient. They are resilient within
certain bounds. And you know, I think that I really
pushed the boundaries, but they were still Okay. It's a
great lesson. You've brought up cancer a few times. How
(27:39):
did you manage getting through that while you continue to work,
while you continue to raise your kids. Yeah, it was
really tough. So I got cancer and I you know,
I had to talk to the kids, and so did
my husband. And really Don was really great with this, right.
Don is a really positive fall other and very involved
(28:01):
in their lives, and and he just said to them,
you know, Mom's gonna be okay. And he said that
to me too, You're gonna be okay. You're tough. And
of course I had lots of doubts. Anybody would write
it's a you know, it's a deadly disease and people
die from it, and I could die from it too,
you know, but I got to this point part way
(28:22):
through my treatments where you know, my my doctor was
very good, and my family was raised here and Mary
was here, and my friends and and I thought, you know,
as long as I have support, even if I die,
it's okay. You know. I got to that point. And
once I got to that point, it got easier, like
I wasn't so fearful. And then, you know, when I
(28:44):
got to the point where I finished the chemo, and
you know, and the my doctor says, Suzanne, you know,
it might come back, it might not, but you're just
going to have to embrace this, this thing, this mystery
of life. And and so somehow I managed to do that,
and and I've carried it with me and it's also
informed my work, right, Like I started asking different questions
(29:05):
in my work because I understood my mortality better and
what it meant to me as a human being. What
does your mortality mean? And what do you want to
leave behind? How do you want to contribute to this world?
What can you do? And so I just became more
focused on asking the right questions that were mattered to me.
And it turned out that intuition and that thought was important.
(29:26):
You know, it's important for me to pay attention to
my experience and bring my experience to my science. Tell
us about Mary, so she would go, Oh, don't say anything.
Mary's my partner. We don't live together. She lives in Oregon.
She was a chemist, she's retired now, and we were similar. Right.
(29:49):
She loves the outdoors and she's a good listener. I
think that's what else can I say about her? How
did you mean? So? When I was a graduate student
at Oregon stay, Don and I had a duplex and
our next door neighbor was Mary, and so we got
to be friends, but nothing there was no I mean,
(30:10):
I was married to Don, I went on to have
children with Don and Mary and I remained friends, but
I moved back to Canada and so we just had
sort of like this distant relationship, you know, friendship. And then,
you know, as my marriage started to fall apart because
the strain was too much, right, it was too much
to be commuting. The marriage couldn't last under those conditions.
(30:33):
And so then, you know, as it was coming to
a close, Mary was had reached out to me and
we just started doing stuff together, going for hikes, and
it was really healing for me. And then you know,
that's how it happened. I mean, it was unexpected, it
was It's a beautiful thing and I love her very
much and we're still together. And now it's kind of
(30:54):
hard because I haven't seen her for almost you know,
since the beginning of COVID. She was across the border.
I live in Canada, so we always see each other
as on zoom right now. But I'm hopeful that that
will come to an end soon. But we're one of
those couples that got caught, you know, in different places. Yeah,
that's brutal. Yeah it would have been more brutal if
(31:15):
we were twenty, but you know we're sixty. We're both
sixty now, so we're sure about it. So what is
next for you in terms of your research? What are
you hoping to discover? Well, you know, I'm a very
practical and applied person, which which means that I'd like
(31:36):
my work to be have meaning and to have traction.
And so I started this project called the Mother Tree
Project with my best friend who was Gene Roach. She's
another forester i've you know, we've been friends since we
were twenty, and she manages the project and I lead it.
And it's basically taking all the things we found out
about tree communication and kinship and transmitting resources and signals
(31:59):
and information and knowledge and and applying it in real forestry.
So it's how do you protect mother trees which are
the center of the forest, the center of the connections,
so that they continue to help heal the land. And
the practice now generally is clear cut, which means take
all the big trees. You know, people love the big
(32:21):
trees because they bring lots of income. Um, they're valuable.
You can make big things from them, So they're the
first thing that people or foresters want to cut down.
But they're also the most important part of the network,
and they're also really important for all kinds of ecosystem functions,
including carbon storage and biodiversity and like the big things
(32:42):
that make forests work. And so I'm trying to get
them to shift away from clear cutting to saving these
big old trees. Um in, you can still harvest trees,
but but save the big ones so that they can
bootstrap the ecosystem back to you know, to recover. And
so that's an uphill battle because it's really hard to
change a practice. And it would be like telling like
(33:05):
Big Egg not to use fertilizers and herbicides because they've
always done that, at least for the past fifty years.
In forestry, it's the same we've always clear cut well,
and I'm saying you need to leave these big old
trees behind because they're the legacy that's what moves the
ecosystem forward. They've got the genes that lived through those
past climate upheavals. They've got the micro rhizes that are
(33:25):
the old girls. Microizes they house these old plants that
we need to feel niches and and so it's a
completely different way of managing and viewing forests. So anyway,
I wanted to show people by having this experiment, I
want to show them that you could do things differently.
And I wanted to demonstrate or I wanted to find
(33:46):
out how do we keep these trees in different patterns
and amounts and configurations in different kinds of forests that
had different climate regions or climatic pressures, so that the
forest would be resilient as they go forward. And so
this project is called the Mother Tree Project. I spend
most of my time on it. Almost all my grad
students now are working on that. It's the biggest experiment
(34:09):
I've ever done. So that's one main focus. The other
main focus is I'm working with some Aboriginal people on
cycling of nitrogen and salmon derived nitrogen in forests and
what that means to forest productivity. And also just how
you know that connection between people and trees and fungi
(34:29):
and salmon is so important. Those connections are so important
and when you sever those connections, things fall apart. And
in that project we call it the Salmon Forest Project.
You know, basically, you know, the salmon management by you know,
our governments is really broken and our salmon populations have
(34:50):
plummeted to you know, a few percent of pre colonization levels.
And the thing is that the Aboriginal people had really
sustainable ways of managing some through their fishing technologies, and
they actually enhanced salmon populations through their technologies. Whereas you know,
our modern fisheries are you know, the colonization fisheries have decimated. It.
(35:11):
It's just like not taking a holistic approach at all.
You know, it's due to climate change and damming of
the rivers and destroying habitat and there's you know, many reasons.
And so I'm working with the Aboriginal people to try
and bring attention to that there are different ways to
do things. You know, there are more conservationist ways that
(35:32):
actually enhance the resources, enhance the salmon, and then the
salmon enhanced the forest. But if we break those linkages,
if we break the cycle, we break the system. But
the system is resilient, it is inherently resilient. But we
can actually really crash the system if we're really exploited,
which is what we're doing. And so yeah, I want
(35:53):
to again demonstrate that there are other ways to do
things in the land. And now for a quick rate, right,
you want to start the lightning round. What book are
you reading right now? I'm reading several, but Sapiens is
one of them. If you weren't studying trees, you would
be studying glaciers because they're dynamic and I love to
(36:17):
be on them. They're disappearing and they hold clues to
past climates and they will help us understand future climates
and now to how to deal with them. Whereas one
place in the world you've wanted to travel but have
not yet visited, Well, I've always wanted to go to
Old Crow. Old Crow is in the Yukon. It's in
the Mackenzie Plateau or the Mackenzie Delta is above the
(36:41):
Arctic Circle. It's where the first human habitation record of
it in North America is. But it's an indigenous community.
It's a Gwitchen community. They're very much one with the land,
and they're very much affected by climate change. And there's
a little story that I just love for the gwitch
and people that I read to my students. So anyway,
(37:03):
I've always wanted to go there. Who leaves you starstruck?
Rachel Maddow. I love Rachel Maddow. Well. I started listening
to her during the Trump period because I didn't know
about her before that, and I thought, this woman knows
her ship, and she is so good on camera, and
she's so personal and so well researched, and her compass
(37:27):
is set right at least according to me. I admire her.
She's got a thick skin. I can learn from her
like that. Lou has been listening this whole time, and
he offers the male perspective on the show. So he
comes in with a final question. Hi, Susanne, So I
actually have a friend who has been she's been called
(37:48):
crazy by her family, by her friends, and she's a musician,
she's very talented, but she went to Joshua Tree and
she's now started to study trees and everybody thinks she's
crazy because she said exactly what you said, that they
can talk. But you mentioned something that that really stuck
with me, And I'm wondering, why aren't humans starting to
(38:10):
see the correlation with keeping the planet the way it's
supposed to be that would benefit us in the long run.
Why do you think that these people are not listening
to your information and to your work. You know, I
think a lot of people are listening, actually, but it
hasn't gained traction that's what you're getting at, Like why
isn't it actually affecting policy and practices, and why isn't
(38:34):
our environmental climate change being you know what, why aren't
we solving this problem? And to me, there are clear
ways to do this, and why aren't we acting on it?
And people, lots of people talk about this like we've
evolved to deal with sudden problems, right, immediate problems, and
climate change is a long term problem. And when you
have such a global problem, it's hard to wrap your
(38:57):
head around what do you do? And so there's that,
but there's also of like, you know, people get stuck
in the way they do things right, like we've always
done it this way, We've always clerk cut, we've always
you know, and it's hard to change the momentum of
that infrastructure and that old way of thinking. But it happens,
piece by piece. It does happen. And I think that,
you know, all of the media attention, the books, the
(39:20):
Ted talks, these interviews, is all part of changing minds.
And I study systems, right, I study ecosystems, and systems
are built on relationships between different parts. So like in
a society, we have systems to write our society um
is based on our relationships. It's the same thing in
all systems ecosystems too, It's on relationships between all the parts.
(39:45):
And the way that change happens is it's slow relationships
that are kind of constantly adjusting, and you can get
building slow level changes, almost inaudible, almost imperceptible, and then
suddenly you can get the these tipping points where the
system will start to change really rapidly. So putting in
you know, the right policies and the right practices in place,
(40:08):
you know, climate policy where we're trying to decarbonize the future,
or we change land use changes, we say we're not
going to cut down old growth for us anymore. Simple
policies get put in place and people start to make changes,
and then all of a sudden there's a big shift.
And so I think we're in that slow phase right
now where people are just kind of catching on and saying, oh, yeah,
(40:28):
you know what, there are other ways to do things,
and I'm gonna we're gonna pressure our governments and watch
Joe Biden just said we're not We're not going to
have any more you know, combustion engines and on on
the roads after those are all super important changes and
we all get on you know, if we can get
on board with the positive changes, then it affects big change.
(40:49):
So I think it's coming. It's slow. I think we've
got to keep pushing, right, we keep all these little
things matter, all the little interviews, all the policies people
are putting in place around the world. Even COVID matters,
right because it showed us that we can affect change
at a global scale. We can do it. Do you
think your your mother tree research will help fuel the change.
(41:13):
I think it can. I think that it's one part
of it. You know, there's other places that demonstrations are needed,
but the mother tree research, if people are become aware
of it, then they can you know, push for those changes.
If the mother tree research itself won't affect any change, right,
it's the attention to it that makes the difference. Like
we can do, like I always say, like I can
(41:35):
do lots of science. I could just spend my whole
life in the academic world in my little office and
churn out tons of journal articles. I can get lots
of recognition and rewards and all that stuff. But if
it might never get any attention if I don't do
that next thing, which is get the word out. That's
what you guys do, and and I'm part of that too,
(41:57):
that part is just as important. So the mother tree research, Yeah,
we're getting great stuff. We're getting really cool information, like
if you click out of for us, you lose half
the carbon right off the bat, Like it seems like
a no brainer. But we've published the paper showing that.
And if if we can get the word out, then
people will pressure their governments to change. And and that's
(42:18):
happening right. I think that this what we're doing here
with the book and the Ted talks and all that,
it is motivating change in how people think. And one
thing we didn't talk about is the mother tree research
or the about connection and collaboration and communities. In traditional forestry,
the focus has been so much on how do you
(42:39):
manage competition in these for us, so you know the
way we managed you know, you know, weeding and pruning
and trying to cultivate the dominant trees and you know,
treating each tree as a competitor that's out to get
make its own way, to be a self made tree.
And all of our forestry practices are geared around this
(43:00):
right to create more space for those dominant trees. And
it's very you know, that's a male dominated research that
went into that. Women weren't really part of that, and
it's shaped how we manage our force. That's what we do.
It's all this I call it one eyed seeing. It's
like we're looking at the force from with one eye closed.
(43:20):
And so then when my work came around, it shows
actually there's all this collaboration in forest, that there's networks
that go on, that there's all the sharing, and they're
just like, that can't be true. But it actually opens
up the other eye, right, it's the female perspective, and
we need to integrate these two things, the male and
the female for a more holistic practice that will honor
(43:43):
all the connections and the competition and all the multifaceted
and brilliant ways that we communicate with each other and
interact with each other. But so far, you know, forest
management has been so much about about the dominance and
competition and you've got to manage it and foster's dominance,
and I'm just like, you know, this is the opposite
(44:05):
of what I think we should be doing. That we
should be managing the whole ecosystem. It is more holistic,
right to look at it in these connections and relationships,
and that you know that all of them matter, all
the trees and creatures matter. It's such a lesson for
all of us who them, because who would think that,
you know, diversity of thought, right, there's so much study
(44:26):
on diversity of thought in different fields, but who would
think that it even contributes to how we treat our
ecosystem and how we see nature. It does in a
huge way. Yeah. Or the idea that we can dominate nature, right,
you know, I remember when you know that one of
there was one American election and Mitt Romney was running
in a primary to be the Republican nominee and he
(44:50):
said something that was like he said, the role of
man is to dominate nature. And I thought that is
so wrong. How do we get to that point? It
is not to dominate nature. It's to be one end
with an all part of nature. That that's all we are.
We're not here to dominate nature. And that's but that
(45:11):
thinking is so pervasive and we don't even realize that's
how we think. It's it's about exploitation and domination and
that runs right through how we you know, we'd our forests,
how we space them, how we plant them with single
species that we think are going to bring us more money.
You know, it's clear cutting our old girls forests and
make way, it's all linked in there. It's all wrapped
(45:35):
up together, and it's got to get untangled or at
least get this other perspectives in there, so that we
have a better outcome, we have a better chance surviving.
I feel like we could have talked to Susanne for hours.
I would have loved to have been her student as well.
I know that immediately about her. I mean I just
(45:56):
loved the whole talk, from the very beginning when she
talks about spending her childhood in the forest. I mean,
that's truly amazing. But also, I mean what really was
amazing was the story we got to write, which is
a story of how she basically said she gave herself
cancer because she had to choose. She was forced to
choose between her career and her children, literally physically choose
(46:20):
between them. We talked about it metaphorically, like oh, I
can't be home for dinner, I'm on a business trip.
But this was wildly different, and it sounds like her
husband kind of forced her to choose that, but it
was really exceptional. I thought, just to hear about how
her kids perceive her career now and perhaps there's no
better sort of display of how they feel, and the
(46:41):
fact that they're both going into her field amazing. Sam,
we talked about that a lot in terms of being
working mothers and what that means for our daughters and
your son, and I think, like, that's just it's a
remarkable endorsement of who she is as a mother. Lou
what did you think? I was just fascinated that she
had so much information about trees. Straight up. I was
(47:03):
just like, wow, Yeah, you guys said, yeah, this is
this is a person who knows trees, And I'm like, wow,
I like fungus talking and you know, them like giving
off a smell. It's like, you know, somebody you see
out of a fantasy book. Will you ever look at
a tree the same way again? You know, there's some
(47:25):
trees are my block that I've just been wondering how
they do it, you know, because we just had a
whole crazy time where I'm like now paying more attention
because COVID has taken away a lot of distractions so
I go outside in the wintertime the leaves are all gone,
and now in the springtime it's just blossom and it's
like really full of leaves. And I'm like, how did
you all do that? Nobody's like watering you and fertilizing
(47:49):
you and none of that. You know, they just have
their own ecosystem. And she broke it down how it
actually works. And I'm just like, I even had a pillow.
I'm sitting here just like, Okay, this is the education.
She really talked me some stuff. I love that. That's awesome.
I can't remember any of the any of the proper terms.
I have to go google them because there are some
really long words. But yeah, it was. It was very
(48:11):
very educational. It's pretty awesome. Thanks for listening to What's
Her Story with Sam and Amy. We would so appreciate
if you would leave a review wherever you get your podcasts,
and of course connect with us on social media at
What's Her Story of podcast. What's Her Story with Sam
and Amy is powered by my company, The Riveter at
(48:32):
the Riveter dot c O in Sam's company, park Place
Payments at park place payments dot com. Thanks to our
producer Stacy para our social media manager, Phoebe crane Fest
and our male perspective Lou Burns
Hosts And Creators
Samantha Ettus
Amy Nelson
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