October 1, 2020 • 50 mins
What’s Her Story talks to Tina Tchen, CEO of Time’s Up. Tina shares stories from her time as Michelle Obama’s Chief of Staff to her pioneering work with the #MeToo movement. From her childhood as the only Chinese kid in her class to her life as a single working mom, Tina’s story is full of gems.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, I'm Sam Atis and I'm Amy Nelson, and this
is what's her story with Sam and Amy. And if
you are just finding us now and haven't listened to
our first three episodes, please do. The first two was
a two part series with our idols at this point, Amy,
(00:20):
that's what i'd call them, Glenn and Doyle and Abby Wambuck.
I call them our best friends, best friends. Right of course,
there are best friends, and I'm sure they would say
the same, Abby Wambuck, Glenn and Duel together their story
of how they met gave us both goose bumps, and
I think it will change the lives of many people listening. Uh.
They also talked about pay, equity, and parenting and so
(00:43):
much more. And then our third episode was Immedia, Maven
and just person extraordinary Arianna Huffington's And that's a conversation
you won't want to miss. I agree. I think they're
all incredible and I'm excited for today too. But before
we jump into it, you know, Sam and I created
this podcast because we are obsessed with women's stories. Women's
stories don't really ever get told. You hear all the
(01:05):
time about what these like men who run companies eat
for breakfast and their leadership skills, But what about the
women who are doing the same. We're here to change
that and to tell their stories. You can sign up
to join our story in our newsletter at www dot
What's Her Story podcast dot com, And while there you
can also find the links to our Facebook and Twitter
and Instagram and LinkedIn, So join us in all the
(01:27):
places so we can keep you up to date on
what we're doing next. So today we are so proud
to bring you Tina Chen, the CEO of Times Up,
former member of the Obama Administration, lawyer extraordinaire, and so
much more. Talking with Tina in this episode was basically
like attending a masterclass on making change. She told us
(01:48):
so many stories about how she made change as an
attorney as a member of the Obama administration and what
that was like working on the Council um for Women
and Girls at the White House Now at at times Up,
it was an amazing conversation and it was really inspirational,
but at times it was also kind of hard because
we're talking about a really weighty topic that times up
(02:10):
is working on, which is discrimination in the workplace, um
and beyond. I know we all have our own stories
about that. Um, it's happened to every woman, and it's
it's something that's really difficult, Sam, what did you think
of it? And I mean, what's your story. I was
an intern during college and I was interning at the
Washington Post for this guy who was known to really
(02:32):
be like the people's advocate. He had a column. His
name was Jack Anderson. He was super famous at the time.
And uh, there were there was a male intern and
there was me, and we were both tasked with finding
stories for the main reporters to cover. And one night
I was out, I was, you know, hanging out with
all the other interns in Washington, d C. And a
(02:54):
guy I knew from college told me a story that
new Gingridge had been filtering money from the Republican Pack
Fund into his own pack. This was scandalous, and I
kind of believed it, Like I know the guy who
told me, and I thought, you know, he certainly didn't
tell me because he thought I was going to do
(03:14):
something with the information. But I was like, I'm going
to run with this. So I ran back to the
office the next morning and shared the story with the
reporters and they started report pursuing it. And a couple
of days later, one of them came into the office
and the other intern, the mail intern. His name was Andy.
He had his bag packed, he had a suitcase for them,
and I said, where are you going and he said, oh,
(03:35):
we're going to Atlanta because we are getting to the
bottom of this new story about New Gingrich And I
was so stunned. I remember feeling like the wind had
been knocked out of me. And I went to my
boss and I said, what's going on? And he said, oh, well,
Andy is a man, and he can share a room
with a reporter who's going to be covering this, and
since you're a woman, you can't share a room with him.
(03:57):
So we had to send Andy. And at the end
of that summer, Andy had three by lines in the
Washington Post and I had zero, and all of his
bye lines were associated with that story. I mean, I
think the weirdest part amy is in looking back. I
called my dad to talk to him about it, and
he was like, that is discrimination. And I really didn't
know it was discrimination until my dad labeled it for me.
(04:21):
I hear that. I mean, I you know, it's hard
for us to sometimes name what we see, even though
it might seem clear in retrospect or to somebody else
when you tell them the story I mean, and that
it's not just when you're twenty two or twenty three.
It can also happen when you're in your thirties or
forties or fifties. You know, when I was still practicing
law and I was having my babies, I went to
(04:44):
talk to my boss when I was coming back from
frontal leave, and um, someone senior to him had just left,
and so there was a position open and there was
a possibility for me to get a promotion. And I
asked him, I said, you know, will i'd be considered
for a promotion? And he said, well, you know, we
talked about it, but it's just not not the right time.
You just had a baby. And I just kind of
like nodded, and I'm like, yeah, you know, at the time,
(05:04):
I was like, well, maybe he's right, but that's just discrimination, right,
that's just not how this should work. Right. If I
had thought it wasn't the right time because I just
had a baby, that would be my decision, but that
shouldn't be how anybody else should look at me. But
you know, I didn't do anything about it. Now later
I wrote in the Washington Post about it, speaking of
the Washington Post, and it was really scary. I remember
(05:25):
when I wrote the op ed that to my husband,
I fear that if I published this, I'll never be
able to practice law again. And at the time, I'd
left to start my company, The Riveter. But my husband
looked at me and he said, do you ever want
to practice law again? And I said, I don't know.
But the point is is like, now I'm going to
be someone who said something and that is really scary.
And I think, you know, it's still hard even today.
I don't know how much it has changed. And I
(05:46):
think even talking to Tina, it's so inspiring listening to her,
but there's a little bit of a feeling of there's
so much that still needs to be done. You asked
her about change on Wall Street, change in in law.
I mean, we've seen so much about sports and media,
right we see a lot of like the high profile
entertainment cases coming up, But what about people that are
(06:06):
working in factories or in law firms or places that
aren't as sexy and visible. I don't know if the
change is being felt there. I don't I don't know
if it is and it needs to be right. And
I think that's why this conversation with Tina is so important.
Tina provides us all some actionable advice for reporting discriminations.
So I hope you listen and learn like we did. Yeah,
And I also felt like after listening to her, I
(06:28):
hope that there's some people out there who feel confident
to share their stories and just feel comfortable moving forward
with sharing, because every time you share your story and
speak up about injustice, you're helping a countless number of women.
So too, Sam, And without further ado, here's Tina. You know,
(06:52):
my parents were Chinese immigrants. Um, they came to the
States sort of fleeing the Civil war in China, that
was what broke out after World War Two. And UM,
my dad actually deliberately, you know, having heard stories from
friends and family about sort of the discrimination that Chinese
people were facing in the coasts sort of you know,
(07:13):
in New York and California where there were high concentrations
concentrations of Chinese, UM sort of decided to settle us
in a place where there were no Chinese. So this
isn't like fifties early sixties, Um, there were really no
Chinese in the East side of Cleveland. I think there
were six families and the entire eastern suburbs of Cleveland,
(07:34):
and we knew them all. Um. And it's very different now,
you know, it's much more diverse now, but back then
there really were so few with such an added I
grew up in a Jewish neighborhood, so in addition to
being the only Chinese person, I was also like one
of like five not Jewish kids in my kindergarten class,
so that it was much marked my experience as much
(07:54):
as being Chinese in the neighborhood. How did it mark
your experience? Well, it was so interesting, Like literally there
were five five of us who would show up to
school in the high holidays until the school finally got
smart and decided to close the school. It was public school,
closed the school, you know for high holidays. Um. You know,
my my middle school years were marked by you know,
(08:16):
I went to Temple for bar miss and was more
than I went to church in those days. Probably my
high school dating experience was less marked by the fact
that I was Chinese dating you know, these Jewish boys,
but that I was a ship sup. That was actually hilarious.
I think a lot about that upbringing in a Jewish
(08:37):
neighborhood and you know, some of that social justice and
you know, sort of the kinds of conversations that we
would have in my high school were you know, a
part of part of the shaping of my experience. That
might have been different had it been a different I'd
been in a different suburb of Cleveland, right. I think
it was probably really fortunate. I grew up in a
(08:58):
suburb called Beechwood, which some people may know. It's just
east of Shaker Heights, the very infamous Shaker Heights. You know,
my mom was very active in the community. Um, that's
kind of I think where I learned a lot of
my activism was watching her. You know, she was really
involved in the p t A and then the Girl
Scouts as a Girl Scott leader, and you know, as
in American Field Service. You know, we sort of had
(09:19):
students staying at her house, you know that that kind
of thing, and very accepted again as a Chinese immigrant
by this Jewish community. Tina, did your mom work outside
the home? She did not. Um. She was a chemist
by training. You know, she actually um came to the
States um and got her master's degree in chemistry. UM
worked for a while before I was born. I'm the oldest,
(09:42):
but then you know, it was when I was born.
After I was born, you know, she stayed home. UM.
And then my sister came along three years later. Uh.
And then actually, UM, at a time when maybe my
mom might have gone back to work, UM, she got
very ill with remor ritisis a chronic comatoris right throughout
(10:02):
most of her adult life, which really shaped sort of
also my childhood. You know, when you have a chronically
ill parent. Um, it's sort of also shapes you know,
how you know your life as a kid. You take
take on a lot more responsibilities as a kid really
early on. Uh. And that's something we sort of, you know,
managed my entire childhood. After you went away to college,
(10:24):
you went to law school. I would love to know
about your career as an attorney and as a litigator.
You started as a lawyer at a time when women
were made up something like eight percent of attorneys. What
was that like? Did you feel mothered? Well? So, I
(10:45):
think this is relevant to your question because I didn't
go straight to law school now back then, so this
is so I graduated from college and night and is
you know IV eight not going straight to law school.
It was actually somewhat of a rarity. Now it's actually
much more commonplace. But you know, the typical pathway was
as you go straight to law school right then after college.
(11:05):
I didn't. I got married to somebody that I had
gone to college with. We both worked for state government
in Illinois, sort of how I got to Illinois. So
we're both living in Springfield, Illinois, and I worked for
state government for three years before figuring out that yes,
actually indeed I did want to go to law school,
and so I went to law school after then. UM. Interesting,
It's an interesting time those three years because in addition
(11:26):
to working for state government, they happened to be the
three years when we were trying to get the equal
rights in them and passed through Illinois as the only
northern industrial state that had not ratified the ARRAY. So
you know, that is also where I pegged the genesis
of my you know, activity in UM and commitment to
gender equity issues was really that you know, here I'm
twenty two years old and like the center of the
(11:47):
University for American Foundomist feminism comes to the very small
town Springfield Illinois that I'm living in. UM. But I
think being older amy helped me, right, because it really
wasn't oddity. There were several of us, not a handful
of us, who had not gone straight through to law school.
We actually became friends. That was our study group was
all people who had not just come out of college. UM.
(12:09):
And that being a little bit more mature, right, and
a little bit better able having been in the work
role once already, I think stealed me for exactly what
you're talking about, right. I went into you know, Scadding Arps,
which was not yet then one of the biggest law
firms in the world, but subsequently became that, um, you know,
in their Chicago office, which had only just recently opened.
(12:30):
So it also helped that I was one of about
thirty lawyers at the time when I got there, even
though the firm, which is based in New York, was,
you know, several hundred lawyers, and the experience both I
think being older of being other was actually something I
was pretty used to. So I do think this whole
growing up in Cleveland, grown up in a Jewish neighborhood,
(12:52):
you know, being the other was I don't think I
appreciated it at the time, but I had internalized a
lot of the defense mechanisms, a lot of it, you know,
I just didn't The stuff just rolled off my back
instead of really sort of festering with me. And I
think that sort of came from that childhood of being,
you know, the only Chinese kid, you know, UM in
(13:13):
my school, and and so you know, it's it is
all the things that we always talked about, right being
the only woman you know on a team, certainly the
only person of color, um, trying to make your voice heard,
you know, at different moments, you know, developing that confidence
to sort of do that. I experienced all of it,
but I think it did not you know, it didn't
(13:35):
paralyze me in the way that I think can sometimes
do because I actually had lived it a lot already
by the time I got to be UM in a
law firm, and I, you know, by the time I
got to a law firm, I was sort of in
my late twenties as opposed to my early twenties. And
at what point did you become a single mother. My
son Patrick was born when I was thirty one, and
(13:57):
I became a single mom pretty much right way, you know.
After then you know, my my ex husband and I
have been married for about eleven years at that point, um,
and you know, we separated not long after I went
back to work, you know, from my maternity league and um.
And then I adopted Emma UM sort of eight years
seven years later. They're eight years apart, UM and she
(14:20):
was about ten months old when I got her, So
I adopted her from China's a single mom. So yeah,
so it was pretty much a single mom the entire time.
So what was that? Like? Everyone kind of has this
and Amy has lived it as well. But you know,
in corporate law at you know, billable hours or everything
in terms of making partner. So how are you able
(14:41):
to do that while also raising two kids by yourself? Well,
you know, I had really good childcare, honestly, you know,
and you look into childcare, um, good childcare, and I
had means. So this is why I'm so passionate about
working families issues is UM. I was a scating arts lawyer, right,
so I had I had a lot of means, UM,
(15:02):
and so I had the resources to hire really good
in home childcare. You know, I had one person who
worked for me for like twenty years and a second
person that I hired after I got Emma, who worked
for me also for like over twenty years, actually moved
with me to d C when we moved and stayed
for six years till i'm a graduated from my school.
(15:23):
So I just was really lucky to have two people
who were so wonderful and they essentially became part of
our family, and UM and I could trust right that
my kids were fine. You know, there were a couple
of moments in there where I didn't you know, UM,
one of my one of my sitters, you know, had
her own her child and I gave her maternity leave,
and so I had this unsettled period right where the
(15:43):
child there wasn't fully locked in and it was there's
a part of your brain that is fully is occupied
during your day if that's the case, right, if your
kids aren't really or if they're right there, if they
are come sick, or you know, there's something that's not
fully take care him on the child care front, there's
a part of your brain and your emotional you know,
(16:05):
concentration that's occupied by that. UM and I remember that feeling.
It's so true. My kids are six for three and one,
and my mother, she was a teacher in Ohio from
my childhood, but after she retired, she came out to
Seattle from Ohio to help me. And I really don't
(16:28):
think I could have started my company if my mother
hadn't been been here to help us, because I needed
that um, that safety and knowing that I could travel
and she would always be there. Well, and that's the thing,
you know, just to bring things to present day, you know,
one of the things at times that we're talking about
right now. And you know, we just did sort of
(16:48):
an activation with you know, California assembly Member Buffy Wicks,
you know who you do a my former staffers um
around caregiving. You know, we are headed into in this
country a care caregiving crisis on top uh the healthcare crisis,
the economic crisis, the racial justice crisis. The fourth one
is now going to be caregiving. As schools don't open,
(17:09):
childcare centers go under, right, you know that we have
a childcare system that operates on very thin margins and
they are going out of business. And you know, lawyers
and doctors are gonna find We're gonna find childcare that
we can higher in. But it is lower and middle
income women who are dependent upon our school system are
dependent upon a network of you know, childcare centers or
(17:33):
in home childcare that's evaporating, UM, that are finding that
they don't know what to do. They are in a
literal crisis as we speak. They actually can't afford to
not go to work. But then what do they do
with their kids who are school age and learning virtually?
But like, are they supposed to stay home alone all day?
Can they safely stay home alone all day? You know,
(17:53):
this is a it's a real crisis, not just for
those individual women, but you know, for our overall economy.
You know, we had made progress to the point where
women were of the labor force, and this particular crisis,
and there's several and several articles written about this now
has the potential to undo what has been now several
(18:14):
generations of progress on the increase in women's labor force participation.
And what that means is our economy as a whole
will lose the talent, They're going to lose the resources, um,
and we are going to suffer overall as a nation
if we do not figure this out as a collective problem,
not an individual problem for moms to figure out on themselves,
(18:36):
but as a public policy imperative, as a business imperative
for employers to figure out not just leave their workers
to figure out on their own. Well, it's also intertwined
with Time's Up, right, because if few women are in
the workforce, then it it sort of paves the way
and opens the door for a lot more discrimination, uh,
and harassment. So this is a good time for us
(18:58):
to ask you about your work at time ms UP
and then we can go back to the White House,
because I know we want to hear about that, but
but tell us about times UP and how you join
and what that experience has been like. Well, you know,
my joining times Up was a little bit, a little
bit like being in Springfield at the right time. Um,
I just happened, you know, this is October, you know,
(19:18):
and the Harvey Weinstein articles had just come out. I
had just joined and gone back to private practice after
the White House and started a practice actually about three
weeks before the first Harvey article on advising companies on
workplace culture, because I had seen the need for that
kind of advice through the work on the Working Family's
Agenda in the administration. And I happened to be in
(19:39):
Los Angeles for something entirely different amy. Actually it was
to play in United States Women's why I was in
Los Angeles also, I mean I have worked done together,
and um happened to be in the offices where these
women from Hollywood had just spontaneously come together, having realized
for the first time that they weren't the only ones, right,
I mean this the culture of silence that had developed
(20:01):
in the nondisclosure agreements and the threatening people with lawsuits
that they spoke out, you know, environment that existed not
just in Hollywood, been in other workplaces, really meant that
women who were these you know, objects of sexual harassment
thought they were the only ones and therefore continued to
keep silent as a vicious circle. Well, the incredible recording
(20:22):
from the New Yorker or the New York Times blew
that open, and they all of a sudden realized they
weren't alone. They had gathered together to support one another.
But to their credit, they didn't want to just do that.
They actually very quickly wanted to turn that pain into action,
to do it on behalf of women, not just in
their industry, but who didn't have the same platforms. And
(20:43):
it really literally just happened to be there as those
conversations were coming together, and we sort of realized very
quickly that one of the things that was necessary was
legal resources, both to help women who were being sued
for defamation because that's part of the predators playbook, and also,
as it turns out, low wage women who didn't have
access to lawyers because even though you get attorney's fees
(21:05):
when you see for sexual harassment, if your wages are
so low, so the recovery is so low. Turns out
thousands of low wage women have never had access to
really vindicate their employment rights because they can't find lawyers
who can afford to take their cases. So from Matt,
you know, we you know, I really helped put together
at the Times of Legal Defense Fund, you know, which
(21:27):
you know, we famously raised the twenty four million dollars
for right after the Golden Globes launch um A hundred
percent of the twenty four million went to the National
Women's Law Center, which houses the Times of Legal Defense
Fund and um UH And since then we've served you know,
nearly five thousand individuals, you know, with both legal support
and pr advice if they if they choose to speak out.
(21:49):
UM but over the course of eighteen, I continued, you know,
all of us who are part of the leadership to
stay involved to figure out what else do we need
to do. Wasn't It was by no means for sure
that we're we needed an advocacy organization, although it became
clear that we did right on issues, not just to
support survivor justice, but also to not you know, to
start to create a world where we weren't just dealing
(22:10):
with the aftermath of sexual harassment, right we needed to
create workplaces where it doesn't happen in the first place.
And to do that, I think, as Sam, as you
were referencing, you need to create SAFEIR and dignified work,
which means you need to have women represented up and
down the wage scale. You need to address structural barriers
and keep that from happening, like equal pay and paid
(22:31):
leave and caregiving and fair pay and promotion. And so
that is now the advocacy agenda, you know, four times
up UM, which is to work for you know, as
as we say, to create SAFEEIR and dignified work by
UM working with culture, company and laws. So that's that's
(22:51):
not not a small task, that's I mean, it's an
enormous task. It is the work of a lifetime. Really,
So walk us through how a woman reports today harassment,
assault or discrimination at work through times up. Yeah, so
(23:12):
you know, if someone is in need of help but
they've experienced something, or they've reported to the company and
they're not getting you know, a satisfactory response, or they
need to file a claim, you know, and people should
recognize that the statutes of limitation on these kinds of
claims are is very very short. So if you think
you have been the subject of some form of sexual harassment,
(23:35):
you should reach out either to your HR department or
to the times of Legal defense funds are both very quickly.
What is the typical statute of limitation six months? What
how is that even possible? Into Title seven? As written
into Title seven is a hundred and eighty days, you know,
(23:56):
because you know, Congress didn't really want to enact sex
just Comination Tattle seven. So so that you know that
now we have lengthened it. There are many state jurisdictions California,
New York, you know, elsewhere that have lengthened for state claims,
but for federal Title seven claims days to get your
claim into the e o C. And that's for workplace discrimination,
(24:18):
not for rape, because didn't you you you you last
year change cuomos Okay, So so talk about that too,
because it's really this whole statute of limitation thing is incredible.
In the work you've been doing around it, it's amazing.
So you know what you're talking about. Sam is remarkably
New York had some of the shortest statutes of limitations
for rape and sexual assault, so just you know what happens.
(24:41):
It could be the workplace, it could be on the street,
it could be in your home. You know, actual criminal
These are for criminal claims, not workplace claims. UM and
New York had some of the shortest statutes of limitation.
And several of our women activists in New York actually
led by Robbie Kaplan, you know, the amazing you know
lawyer and our board chair. We're sitting around and kind
(25:04):
of like on a napkin. Grabby has kept a napkin,
you know, mapping out if we needed to change things
in New York law what sho are we doing and
came up with a New York Safety Agenda, and it
included things like lengthening out the statute of limitations for
rape and sexual assault under New York law, because what
we also know about these claims is trauma is and
(25:26):
these are you know, some of the most violative traumatic
crimes that can be perpetrated against someone you know is
really deep and it takes a long time often for
someone to come forward or to remember the details or
be able to report um. And in the meantime, the
other thing we know about people who rape is they
are repeat offenders. Right, So when we were doing campus
(25:49):
sexual salt work, you know, we sort of know that
nine of the campus sexual starts are being committed by
five to six percent of the people, right because actually
the Hunting grab were you involved in the Hunting Ground,
but I know that that was definitely the most if
you haven't seen it, amy the Hunting Ground, the documentary
about about college campus sexual assault was so powerful, and
(26:10):
one of the most powerful things was finding out not
just that colleges are covering it up, but also that
the same people are raping again and again, and because
colleges cover it up, they're just repeat offenders, and the
colleges are actually the reason they're repeat offenders. It's it's
it's unbelievable right, and our whole overall justice system works
that way, and that the short statutes limitations contributes to that.
(26:32):
So you know, we got together and passed. You know,
this extension of the statue limitations is about actually, Um, Sam,
I think the anniversary of that, you know, of a
year ago of the bill signing that we did with
Governor Cuomo, Um and Mirror Sorvino and Michelle Heard, you know,
and others Kathy and Jamie there with Governor Cuomo to
sign that bill is just about coming up on its
(26:54):
year anniversary. So you know it was it was you know,
that's what happens when collective action takes place. You can
really what was the change it was from what to what?
You know it was, so you're not testing my memory
because it was two different classes. It was the most
serious and the secondary class, and one went from like
(27:14):
eight to fifteen years, another one from five to ten
years something like that. And that's a big change, right,
it was a big change. I had a question about
New York, So why hasn't Times hit Wall Street or
really law firms? So remember really the way Times up happened, Um,
(27:36):
and was kind of an organic coming together women in
the industry, right, so with women in entertainment who came
together pushed for changes within the entertainment industry and beyond
outside the entertainment industry. Pretty shortly thereafter, you know, in
the early months of UM women in advertising did the same,
(27:57):
you know, led by Colleen de Corsi and Wine Kennedy,
and they came together in a big way. And so
as a result, we have Times of Advertising Department so
to speak, within Times of that has organized you know,
a whole a network of women in advertising to work
on the issues. And then also at the same time,
women in healthcare came together, and interestingly, it was a
group led by a group of really outspoken, wonderful e
(28:20):
er docs you know, Estra Chew and Rick Cass who
are very famous now if you've been watching the news,
because you know, long before they were the PPE experts,
you know, they actually came together and formed Times of Healthcare.
And so, you know, we have like a whole set
of activities really driven by women in the industry. And interestingly,
although you know, there have been lots of individual cases
(28:42):
in law firms, like there's a Jones Day lawsuit, there's
some other cases in the finance space, there hasn't been
that critical mass, I guess of collective women coming together.
We've been talking to folks in the finance space and
the legal space about what we can do. Interestingly, just
before the pandemic, if we were going to sort of
see if rather than trying to organize banks and then
(29:05):
law firms and then accounting firms, maybe the idea would
be to get the whole finance ecosystem right professionals together,
because then there's a little more strength in numbers um.
And we were starting to sort of see what could
we do with people like Sally Crowcheck and others on
strategizing on what we could do, and then the pandemic hit.
But it really was aiming sort of driven by internally,
(29:27):
you know, women in the industry is coming together. And
you and I both come from that world, and I
think it's as hard as it is an entertainment or
advertising or healthcare. I feel like in the finance world,
you know, Wall Street, it's even harder. You're more isolated.
As women, you are so beholden to your reputation. I
mean entertainment is too, but for whatever reason, you know,
(29:50):
they're you know, there there are fewer women at the
top who are willing to stick their next out and
actually talk about what their experiences. So we haven't seen it.
All the other structural barriers that keep women isolated in
those industries I think have made it really difficult for
them to come together. Did you ever feel like there
was a momentum in the beginning that would just continue
(30:11):
and maybe it's it's stopped and started a bit. How
do you feel about that? Do you feel like the
momentum is still there? You know? I do think the
momentum is still there. It's something you worry about, right,
I mean, obviously as an activist, as a movement person,
now somebody who's earning an organization full time on these issues,
you worry about that. Um. But I do think sadly
(30:32):
there is no shortage of new examples, you know, so um,
I think by the time this airs, we will have launched,
you know, a digital campaign against the Washington football team.
So for those of you not in d C, if
you've been you know, not following it, the Washington Post
has been publishing over the last couple of weeks a
series of articles with over fifty women and then you know,
(30:54):
some of them cheerleaders, but not just cheerleaders, also people
who worked in the front office of the Washington Football
team who have documented years of sexual harassment and abuse
and being you know, basically, you know, asking the cheerleaders
to come and sit on people's laps in the sweet
you know, in the owner's suite kinds of behavior. You know. Actually,
the more most recent um documented allegation is the fact
(31:16):
that they did a calendar shoot, and outtakes from the
calendar shoot that we're particularly revealing up women's body parts
were asked to be clipped together for a highlight reel
for the owner and his board. So so we're you know,
we're calling on you know, these are women who are
under n d A s, under nondisclosure agreements. So we
(31:38):
are calling on the Washington Football Team to release them
from their n d as, for the NFL to conduct
its own investigation, and for the other NFL owners to
really look and see is this the kind of owner
we want in our league? And that is a clause
that they can invoke, right, I mean, the National Football
League has the ability in their league agree to kick
(32:00):
out owners, right who don't represent the values on the NFL. Well,
you know, we're sort of asking the NFL, are these
your values and maybe it's time to take action, you know,
at the league level. If someone is listening right now
and wants to report something, and maybe they did send
an India, maybe they didn't, what would be the process
(32:21):
of reporting it? Two Times up we're getting in touch
with Times up right, so you can go to the
National Women's Last Center websites, says nw LC dot org.
You can also I'm sure, google Times of Legal Defense on.
You can also get to it through our Times up
Now website which is Times up now dot org or
um you can text you know UM join to three
(32:43):
or six four four, which will get you into our
system at at times of UM. Then you'll be asked,
you know, just question. You'll you know, certain basic questions
about what your cases and about, and you'll get linked
to someone at the National Women's Law Center to talk
to you about what it is and on what happens
Is you get referred, you will be given the name
of three lawyers you know, UM hope, preferably in your
(33:06):
geographic area, and you can talk with each of those
three and then you make a decision about which one
of those three you want to work with. This is
to comply with all the legal referral laws, which aimy
you'll you'll know there's like lots of very arcane state
laws around legal referrals. But you know, here the client
will make his or her own decision about who to
go with. And then most of the lawyers in that
(33:28):
network have agreed to handle cases or certainly provided that
the initial consultation is free UM. And they have also
you know, um agreed to sort of handle a lot
of these cases free or for low bow low low cost.
And then there's a separate process for folks who need funds. Right.
So some of the lawyers are you know, some of
the best employment lawyers are their own solo practitioners right
(33:52):
or small shops UM, and don't have the money to
you know, fund class you know cases in front of
you know, provide money up front. And so there's a
separate application process which lawyers can go through to get money,
UM for funds for specific you know things that they
need money for in those cases UM. And then finally
(34:14):
for UM survivors who want to speak out. You know,
so a lot of people, as we mentioned, statial limitations
may have passed, but somebody actually wants to speak at them.
In the Washington case, there's a lot of those incidences
are way past entertatial limitations UM, and that's actually how
perpetrators get away with this UM. And it's still important
to hold them accountable and that survivors have their moment
(34:34):
to speak and tell their story if that's what they
want to do. I want to stress that that we
very much have as a touchstone. This is all about
what survivors make the decision to do. If you want
to speak or you don't want to speak. If you
want to speak, we will make sure that a survivor
first as a lawyer so they're advised on defamation, you know,
UM risk or any other issues, and then if they
(34:55):
want to speak, we can also link them with Promoto
PR support because a lot of times, you know, survivors,
they get out it in an article or they speak
out and all of a sudden they are deluged right
by press, by social media attacks, other things, and we
felt it was important for survivors to have PR support
as well. So you've been a change maker your entire career,
(35:19):
whether as an attorney working for the State of Illinois
or at the White House. So if we can go
back to two thousand nine, you left the left scadon
and you arrive in d C. At the White House?
What was that like for you? I have no good
How did you meet? The President's story like how we
(35:39):
first met. But I always supported him in his campaigns
and in his Senate campaign and of course in his
presidential campaign. And so when he got into the White House,
he asked me to come and I worked. My first
job was um working with Valery Jarrett. She was the
Senior Advisor for Public Engagement and Inner Governmental Affairs, and
I ran what we came Office of Public Engagement in
(36:01):
those first two years, which was essentially the President's outreach office.
You know the phenomenon where if there was an office,
then nobody else in the government took response, would take
responsibility for women and girls? Right, if you create a council,
which we did, of every Cabinet agency, every major White
House policy office, they were all members of the president
charged every one of them was thinking about women and girls.
(36:23):
Then if sexual sult in the military comes up, it's
depending on the responsibility will oversee it from the White
House and hold their feature the player. But they got
to solve the problem. They can't just like look down
the table and say not my problem is your problem,
because you're the Office of Women and Girls. So, you know,
I think it was untried. You know, it had not
been done before. I think some of the I'll be honest,
(36:45):
some of the women's groups were a little skeptical in
the beginning. They were a little hostile. I remember one
meeting where Valory just looked at them and said, just
give us a chance, you know, just give us, give
us a chance to see if this will work. And
I think it was pretty successful. Um. And I think
by the end of the eight years, you know, most
of the groups would agree that they had more access
(37:05):
to the president than they had ever had before because
Valerie and I were both there at every key meeting. Um,
that we were able to get more done because we
were actually had people working on these issues in every
part of the federal government. Um and um, you know,
I think that's what we were able to do. Issues
on sexual assault, on military, on fit, working family issues,
(37:29):
you know, on global issues affecting women and girls, you know, internationally. UM.
So it was, it was it was really sort of
a great effort, all culminating as you know, Amy and
United States Women, which was our final event in June
that brought all these issues together and which Valerie and
I and Jordan Brooks have continued right as an organization
(37:52):
post sixteen that really brings together all the threats of
the women's movement. Because my experience that the councilwoman in
Girls was to live firsthand how fragmented the women's movement is. Right,
everybody's working in silos. The health care people don't talk to,
the violence against when people don't talk to the gender
equity people in the workplace. And yet I will say,
(38:14):
women don't live their lives and silos, right. So you know,
the same woman is, you know, trying to figure out
how to get her kids into school while she's dealing
with the fact she's got to get a mammograham and
she's dealing with a sick parent, and she doesn't need
equal paying her job. And the idea that she's got
to go to five different places right to find that
information or get advocacy on this seemed crazy. So equal
(38:39):
pay you just basically describe my life. Yeah. So, but
that's why, as you know, and Amy, you've been a
big supporting United States of Women. You know, that is
really an umbrella organization to bring everybody together. We want
to honor the work that people are doing, you know what.
We don't want to displace at work, but we want
to make sure everyone is both connected to each other
and then connected to the grassroots activists across the kind
(39:00):
tree who are doing this great work. You ended up
working very closely with Michelle Obama has her her star
seems to have risen and risen and risen since the
White House. Has that surprised you in any way? Or
is that something you predicted? I did always know and
I could see it in the work UM that we
were doing, you know, as their chiefest staff that you know,
(39:22):
this is a brilliant woman who is incredibly thoughtful and
has been able to match a really highly um highly
informed intellect and deep thinking about issues to never losing
sight of her roots and average people. I mean, she
used to be within the White House, you know, be
the person who would have comments about, oh, you know,
(39:45):
this is what the average person is really thinking, you know,
and you know she would be you know, we were successful,
I think in some of our East Wing work on
promoting things like let's move, you know, and UM or
other issues because she wasn't watching this on the new shows.
She was watching what the rest of America's watching, like
HGTV right or so even the White House, she was
(40:07):
the person really still in touch, right with what you know,
an average mom was struggling with or thinking about. And um,
so I think what you are seeing post White House
is um all of that that you saw in the
White House, but unleashed, shall we say, right now she's
no longer constrained by, you know, the what she had
(40:32):
to do to be first Lady the United States, or
what she had to do to be the wife of
the President of the United States. I mean she was
also very clear during our time in the White House
that there was only one person who was elected in
the building and that everything all of us did had
to be in service of his agenda, you know, which
is right. I mean, that's actually not a being a
(40:54):
subservient wife thing. That's being a good citizen and a
good student of democracy, which is the one person in
the building who's elected as the president. That's the agenda
that the people have elected to serve. And so all
of us, herself and her team, including me included, should
be thinking about that um. And so all of the
(41:15):
work we did, if you think about our initiatives, were
all directly LinkedIn in service of you know, the President's
healthcare agenda. In the case of Let's Move Reach Higher
was the President's education agenda. UM, Joining Forces was our
work of the military. And then let Girls Learned was
obviously this international agenda that we adopted across the board
on international girls education. But post White House, she's been
(41:37):
able to have her own agenda right and really regain
her own voice in her own way. And UM, I
hadn't experience. I'll just share with you guys. I don't
know if I ever said this publicly, but her first
stadium tour, first of all, like the idea that she
would fill a stadium, none of us actually thought that
was gonna happen, right, Like you know that that was
an idea. It was like, okay, maybe, but really, what
(41:57):
are you gonna do for like, you know, to ours
with six people? Um, turns out like it really works.
But I sat in the first one, you know, in Chicago,
and there was like every you know, a few minutes
or so, she'd say something where there were it's like
muscle memory. There would be this involuntary reaction, I would
have because it was a little ledgy, right, and it
would be the kind of thing I had spent you know,
(42:20):
six years being really schooled at tamping down or redirecting
or no, we can't quite go that far. And I
had to catch myself and realize who cares? Right, you know,
she gets to say whatever she wants to. Now there
is no election at stake. There is you know, no
agenda we're trying to promote other than what she wants
to talk about. And I think that authenticity, uh, you know,
(42:44):
both her her brilliance and how she makes observations and
her willingness to be vulnerable, so all of things. For example,
her recent conversation about being wildly depressed in this this
environment that resonates with folks, and it is a conversation
and you don't often hear people of her stature saying
(43:04):
in the public sphere. It's amazing too, because she is
the world's most admired woman. And I think that she's
so courageous in her authenticity and we're all lucky to
get to hear it now. All right, Yeah, so Sam
and I end every podcast with a lightning round different questions,
(43:25):
and then our found engineer Lou will jump in with
his last question, but I'll start, what is your morning routine? Well,
my morning routine under COVID has changed, so I will
say that I have actually been pretty good about getting
up and working out, which was never my entire life.
I have never done that. Clear not to sort of
(43:46):
like I am with you, Cina, I just started post
COVID working out. I'm with you, So you know that's
the one thing. Is that because because I like you
don't have to spend an hour commuting right and driving
down town, that I've actually been using that to work out.
So that's like a whole like new thing, very new.
I love it. Sam. When was the last time you
(44:09):
put your foot in your mouth? Yeah? Like probably an
hour ago. You know, I'm not trying to remember the
precise because I actually one of my survival keys is
that I don't hang onto stuff that's bad and I
don't remember it, therefore it's like gone from my memory. Um.
I have that same thing, and my family gets so frustrated.
(44:31):
My kids will be like remember the time. I'm like,
I really don't. I try to only remember the good
moments I used to hang onto it too long? Right,
So I think as women, I think one of one
of our familis is sometimes we hang onto that stuff
too long and we beat ourselves up over and over.
So this is actually a learned tactic is to sort
of let it go. So, um, I am sure it
was fairly recent, but I couldn't tell you exactly what
(44:55):
what book are you reading? Oh, well, that's kind of interesting,
you'll not you will out here the range of my
reading interests. Um, I just finished Sarah Perevski's latest book. So,
if you don't know Sarah Perevski, she is a fabulous
Chicago author who writes this amazing detective novel. She has
this wonderful um woman detective the I wor Showski. It
(45:16):
is all set in Chicago. So I just finished that
and actually is typically what I try to do. But
like the next book, I'm picking up his cast right
because I do. Oh yeah, I've heard cast. So I'm
going from detective novel too cast and so you know,
doing some more, more more thoughtful work. Now, my kids
are a little older than Amy. So my final question
(45:37):
of our lightning round is how often do you talk
to your adult kids? Oh? Well, my youngest adult kid
who's twenty three, lives with me so multiple times a
day night. She's now she's now a school teacher. My
older child, UM is now a marine officer stationed in Okinawa,
(45:59):
so we talked to him about once a week. We
do a FaceTime thing usually on the weekends, UM with
him about once a week. Wow. Alright, well, Tina, we
have loved our conversation. Lou has been listening this entire time,
and he always comes up with a juicy of a
final question. Okay, I can't want to thank you so
much for everything that you're doing. UM. Me personally updated
(46:22):
about maybe thirteen girls, and I can only think of
two that haven't actually been a victim of some type
of sexual assault or or some type and it's it
is and and another thing that that I noticed from
just asking them questions is it's like a repeat thing.
It happened when they were younger, and then it happened
again when they're older. So is there any work that's happening,
(46:44):
UM that you may know about where where they're like
trying to get at the root of the problem like before,
it can never happen again or even prevent it. From
happening to children, like maybe some education for parents or
for schools or do you know of anything that's happening. Well,
there's been a lot of efforts, you know to try
(47:05):
to develop a curriculum you know, around you know, early
in earlier stages, and it's you know, we started doing
it on rand campus sexual assault and developing curricula, but
we were you know, we were one of the things
that happened when we just ran out of runway and
the Obama administration was then starting to develop that same
work for K through twelve right and sort of reaching
down UM. So there is a lot of work on UM.
(47:26):
I think that's been working UM with one organization that
I love that is the National Coalition of Local Rape
Crisis Centers, which is the National UM Network to UM
End Sexual Assault and then a e s v UM
which is terrific and it is really connected to all
of the local rape crisis centers. But I will also
(47:46):
say an important event that is coming up which is
not a time's up event. We are partners for it,
but UM later on this month, UM Toronto Burkes Me
Too organization and UM in partnership with the nationals A
Center and partnership with us. At times up, we'll be
holding a Survivor's summit really intended to provide a platform
(48:08):
and resources and support for survivors both to speak out
and share their stories, but also if they don't want
to speak out, to find strength from one another and
UH and to really be a safe place that is
exclusively designed by and for survivors. So you know, the
Survivor's agenda and the Survivor's Summit. UM. I think if
(48:30):
you go to the National Woman's Last Center website and
WLC dot org that I gave out earlier, um or
um find the Meat Too movement, you know Toronto Burke's
move to. They are the sponsors of the survivors summit
that's coming up. Tina has such a low key way
of talking about the fact that she was Michelle Obama's
(48:52):
chief of staff. She's at the forefront of the Meat
Too movement, and it sometimes sounds like she's talking about
another day at the office. There's so much to glean
from that. I know. It was really interesting too, because
you know, it goes beyond just those points in her
career too, Like she grew up as the sole Chinese
American in her community in Ohio, and so she really
(49:13):
had to learn how to navigate the different terrain that
was you know, she was the only one there most
of the time, and I think that's probably has carried
through with her career and her personal life. It's just
really interesting to talk to her so thoughtfully about all
those different transitions. If you are listening and you have
been a victim, hopefully this conversation will inspire you to
(49:34):
come forward with your story and to seek justice in
whatever way that is for you. And if we can
help you in any way, we're here for you. You
can reach us at our website at www. Got What's
the Story Podcast dot com. This podcast is powered by
(49:55):
my company, park Place Payments, which you can find at
park Place Payments dot com, and Amy's company, the Ribeter,
which you can find at the Riveeter dot co. And
a huge thank you to our producers at Large Media.
We love working with a women owned company who's doing
all of this magic behind the scenes. And also a
(50:16):
thank you to Emma Hard and our male cast member
Lou Burns. Thanks for listening.
Hi, I'm Sam Atis and I'm Amy Nelson, and this
is what's her story with Sam and Amy. And if
you are just finding us now and haven't listened to
our first three episodes, please do. The first two was
a two part series with our idols at this point, Amy,
(00:20):
that's what i'd call them, Glenn and Doyle and Abby Wambuck.
I call them our best friends, best friends. Right of course,
there are best friends, and I'm sure they would say
the same, Abby Wambuck, Glenn and Duel together their story
of how they met gave us both goose bumps, and
I think it will change the lives of many people listening. Uh.
They also talked about pay, equity, and parenting and so
(00:43):
much more. And then our third episode was Immedia, Maven
and just person extraordinary Arianna Huffington's And that's a conversation
you won't want to miss. I agree. I think they're
all incredible and I'm excited for today too. But before
we jump into it, you know, Sam and I created
this podcast because we are obsessed with women's stories. Women's
stories don't really ever get told. You hear all the
(01:05):
time about what these like men who run companies eat
for breakfast and their leadership skills, But what about the
women who are doing the same. We're here to change
that and to tell their stories. You can sign up
to join our story in our newsletter at www dot
What's Her Story podcast dot com, And while there you
can also find the links to our Facebook and Twitter
and Instagram and LinkedIn, So join us in all the
(01:27):
places so we can keep you up to date on
what we're doing next. So today we are so proud
to bring you Tina Chen, the CEO of Times Up,
former member of the Obama Administration, lawyer extraordinaire, and so
much more. Talking with Tina in this episode was basically
like attending a masterclass on making change. She told us
(01:48):
so many stories about how she made change as an
attorney as a member of the Obama administration and what
that was like working on the Council um for Women
and Girls at the White House Now at at times Up,
it was an amazing conversation and it was really inspirational,
but at times it was also kind of hard because
we're talking about a really weighty topic that times up
(02:10):
is working on, which is discrimination in the workplace, um
and beyond. I know we all have our own stories
about that. Um, it's happened to every woman, and it's
it's something that's really difficult, Sam, what did you think
of it? And I mean, what's your story. I was
an intern during college and I was interning at the
Washington Post for this guy who was known to really
(02:32):
be like the people's advocate. He had a column. His
name was Jack Anderson. He was super famous at the time.
And uh, there were there was a male intern and
there was me, and we were both tasked with finding
stories for the main reporters to cover. And one night
I was out, I was, you know, hanging out with
all the other interns in Washington, d C. And a
(02:54):
guy I knew from college told me a story that
new Gingridge had been filtering money from the Republican Pack
Fund into his own pack. This was scandalous, and I
kind of believed it, Like I know the guy who
told me, and I thought, you know, he certainly didn't
tell me because he thought I was going to do
(03:14):
something with the information. But I was like, I'm going
to run with this. So I ran back to the
office the next morning and shared the story with the
reporters and they started report pursuing it. And a couple
of days later, one of them came into the office
and the other intern, the mail intern. His name was Andy.
He had his bag packed, he had a suitcase for them,
and I said, where are you going and he said, oh,
(03:35):
we're going to Atlanta because we are getting to the
bottom of this new story about New Gingrich And I
was so stunned. I remember feeling like the wind had
been knocked out of me. And I went to my
boss and I said, what's going on? And he said, oh, well,
Andy is a man, and he can share a room
with a reporter who's going to be covering this, and
since you're a woman, you can't share a room with him.
(03:57):
So we had to send Andy. And at the end
of that summer, Andy had three by lines in the
Washington Post and I had zero, and all of his
bye lines were associated with that story. I mean, I
think the weirdest part amy is in looking back. I
called my dad to talk to him about it, and
he was like, that is discrimination. And I really didn't
know it was discrimination until my dad labeled it for me.
(04:21):
I hear that. I mean, I you know, it's hard
for us to sometimes name what we see, even though
it might seem clear in retrospect or to somebody else
when you tell them the story I mean, and that
it's not just when you're twenty two or twenty three.
It can also happen when you're in your thirties or
forties or fifties. You know, when I was still practicing
law and I was having my babies, I went to
(04:44):
talk to my boss when I was coming back from
frontal leave, and um, someone senior to him had just left,
and so there was a position open and there was
a possibility for me to get a promotion. And I
asked him, I said, you know, will i'd be considered
for a promotion? And he said, well, you know, we
talked about it, but it's just not not the right time.
You just had a baby. And I just kind of
like nodded, and I'm like, yeah, you know, at the time,
(05:04):
I was like, well, maybe he's right, but that's just discrimination, right,
that's just not how this should work. Right. If I
had thought it wasn't the right time because I just
had a baby, that would be my decision, but that
shouldn't be how anybody else should look at me. But
you know, I didn't do anything about it. Now later
I wrote in the Washington Post about it, speaking of
the Washington Post, and it was really scary. I remember
(05:25):
when I wrote the op ed that to my husband,
I fear that if I published this, I'll never be
able to practice law again. And at the time, I'd
left to start my company, The Riveter. But my husband
looked at me and he said, do you ever want
to practice law again? And I said, I don't know.
But the point is is like, now I'm going to
be someone who said something and that is really scary.
And I think, you know, it's still hard even today.
I don't know how much it has changed. And I
(05:46):
think even talking to Tina, it's so inspiring listening to her,
but there's a little bit of a feeling of there's
so much that still needs to be done. You asked
her about change on Wall Street, change in in law.
I mean, we've seen so much about sports and media,
right we see a lot of like the high profile
entertainment cases coming up, But what about people that are
(06:06):
working in factories or in law firms or places that
aren't as sexy and visible. I don't know if the
change is being felt there. I don't I don't know
if it is and it needs to be right. And
I think that's why this conversation with Tina is so important.
Tina provides us all some actionable advice for reporting discriminations.
So I hope you listen and learn like we did. Yeah,
And I also felt like after listening to her, I
(06:28):
hope that there's some people out there who feel confident
to share their stories and just feel comfortable moving forward
with sharing, because every time you share your story and
speak up about injustice, you're helping a countless number of women.
So too, Sam, And without further ado, here's Tina. You know,
(06:52):
my parents were Chinese immigrants. Um, they came to the
States sort of fleeing the Civil war in China, that
was what broke out after World War Two. And UM,
my dad actually deliberately, you know, having heard stories from
friends and family about sort of the discrimination that Chinese
people were facing in the coasts sort of you know,
(07:13):
in New York and California where there were high concentrations
concentrations of Chinese, UM sort of decided to settle us
in a place where there were no Chinese. So this
isn't like fifties early sixties, Um, there were really no
Chinese in the East side of Cleveland. I think there
were six families and the entire eastern suburbs of Cleveland,
(07:34):
and we knew them all. Um. And it's very different now,
you know, it's much more diverse now, but back then
there really were so few with such an added I
grew up in a Jewish neighborhood, so in addition to
being the only Chinese person, I was also like one
of like five not Jewish kids in my kindergarten class,
so that it was much marked my experience as much
(07:54):
as being Chinese in the neighborhood. How did it mark
your experience? Well, it was so interesting, Like literally there
were five five of us who would show up to
school in the high holidays until the school finally got
smart and decided to close the school. It was public school,
closed the school, you know for high holidays. Um. You know,
my my middle school years were marked by you know,
(08:16):
I went to Temple for bar miss and was more
than I went to church in those days. Probably my
high school dating experience was less marked by the fact
that I was Chinese dating you know, these Jewish boys,
but that I was a ship sup. That was actually hilarious.
I think a lot about that upbringing in a Jewish
(08:37):
neighborhood and you know, some of that social justice and
you know, sort of the kinds of conversations that we
would have in my high school were you know, a
part of part of the shaping of my experience. That
might have been different had it been a different I'd
been in a different suburb of Cleveland, right. I think
it was probably really fortunate. I grew up in a
(08:58):
suburb called Beechwood, which some people may know. It's just
east of Shaker Heights, the very infamous Shaker Heights. You know,
my mom was very active in the community. Um, that's
kind of I think where I learned a lot of
my activism was watching her. You know, she was really
involved in the p t A and then the Girl
Scouts as a Girl Scott leader, and you know, as
in American Field Service. You know, we sort of had
(09:19):
students staying at her house, you know that that kind
of thing, and very accepted again as a Chinese immigrant
by this Jewish community. Tina, did your mom work outside
the home? She did not. Um. She was a chemist
by training. You know, she actually um came to the
States um and got her master's degree in chemistry. UM
worked for a while before I was born. I'm the oldest,
(09:42):
but then you know, it was when I was born.
After I was born, you know, she stayed home. UM.
And then my sister came along three years later. Uh.
And then actually, UM, at a time when maybe my
mom might have gone back to work, UM, she got
very ill with remor ritisis a chronic comatoris right throughout
(10:02):
most of her adult life, which really shaped sort of
also my childhood. You know, when you have a chronically
ill parent. Um, it's sort of also shapes you know,
how you know your life as a kid. You take
take on a lot more responsibilities as a kid really
early on. Uh. And that's something we sort of, you know,
managed my entire childhood. After you went away to college,
(10:24):
you went to law school. I would love to know
about your career as an attorney and as a litigator.
You started as a lawyer at a time when women
were made up something like eight percent of attorneys. What
was that like? Did you feel mothered? Well? So, I
(10:45):
think this is relevant to your question because I didn't
go straight to law school now back then, so this
is so I graduated from college and night and is
you know IV eight not going straight to law school.
It was actually somewhat of a rarity. Now it's actually
much more commonplace. But you know, the typical pathway was
as you go straight to law school right then after college.
(11:05):
I didn't. I got married to somebody that I had
gone to college with. We both worked for state government
in Illinois, sort of how I got to Illinois. So
we're both living in Springfield, Illinois, and I worked for
state government for three years before figuring out that yes,
actually indeed I did want to go to law school,
and so I went to law school after then. UM. Interesting,
It's an interesting time those three years because in addition
(11:26):
to working for state government, they happened to be the
three years when we were trying to get the equal
rights in them and passed through Illinois as the only
northern industrial state that had not ratified the ARRAY. So
you know, that is also where I pegged the genesis
of my you know, activity in UM and commitment to
gender equity issues was really that you know, here I'm
twenty two years old and like the center of the
(11:47):
University for American Foundomist feminism comes to the very small
town Springfield Illinois that I'm living in. UM. But I
think being older amy helped me, right, because it really
wasn't oddity. There were several of us, not a handful
of us, who had not gone straight through to law school.
We actually became friends. That was our study group was
all people who had not just come out of college. UM.
(12:09):
And that being a little bit more mature, right, and
a little bit better able having been in the work
role once already, I think stealed me for exactly what
you're talking about, right. I went into you know, Scadding Arps,
which was not yet then one of the biggest law
firms in the world, but subsequently became that, um, you know,
in their Chicago office, which had only just recently opened.
(12:30):
So it also helped that I was one of about
thirty lawyers at the time when I got there, even
though the firm, which is based in New York, was,
you know, several hundred lawyers, and the experience both I
think being older of being other was actually something I
was pretty used to. So I do think this whole
growing up in Cleveland, grown up in a Jewish neighborhood,
(12:52):
you know, being the other was I don't think I
appreciated it at the time, but I had internalized a
lot of the defense mechanisms, a lot of it, you know,
I just didn't The stuff just rolled off my back
instead of really sort of festering with me. And I
think that sort of came from that childhood of being,
you know, the only Chinese kid, you know, UM in
(13:13):
my school, and and so you know, it's it is
all the things that we always talked about, right being
the only woman you know on a team, certainly the
only person of color, um, trying to make your voice heard,
you know, at different moments, you know, developing that confidence
to sort of do that. I experienced all of it,
but I think it did not you know, it didn't
(13:35):
paralyze me in the way that I think can sometimes
do because I actually had lived it a lot already
by the time I got to be UM in a
law firm, and I, you know, by the time I
got to a law firm, I was sort of in
my late twenties as opposed to my early twenties. And
at what point did you become a single mother. My
son Patrick was born when I was thirty one, and
(13:57):
I became a single mom pretty much right way, you know.
After then you know, my my ex husband and I
have been married for about eleven years at that point, um,
and you know, we separated not long after I went
back to work, you know, from my maternity league and um.
And then I adopted Emma UM sort of eight years
seven years later. They're eight years apart, UM and she
(14:20):
was about ten months old when I got her, So
I adopted her from China's a single mom. So yeah,
so it was pretty much a single mom the entire time.
So what was that? Like? Everyone kind of has this
and Amy has lived it as well. But you know,
in corporate law at you know, billable hours or everything
in terms of making partner. So how are you able
(14:41):
to do that while also raising two kids by yourself? Well,
you know, I had really good childcare, honestly, you know,
and you look into childcare, um, good childcare, and I
had means. So this is why I'm so passionate about
working families issues is UM. I was a scating arts lawyer, right,
so I had I had a lot of means, UM,
(15:02):
and so I had the resources to hire really good
in home childcare. You know, I had one person who
worked for me for like twenty years and a second
person that I hired after I got Emma, who worked
for me also for like over twenty years, actually moved
with me to d C when we moved and stayed
for six years till i'm a graduated from my school.
(15:23):
So I just was really lucky to have two people
who were so wonderful and they essentially became part of
our family, and UM and I could trust right that
my kids were fine. You know, there were a couple
of moments in there where I didn't you know, UM,
one of my one of my sitters, you know, had
her own her child and I gave her maternity leave,
and so I had this unsettled period right where the
(15:43):
child there wasn't fully locked in and it was there's
a part of your brain that is fully is occupied
during your day if that's the case, right, if your
kids aren't really or if they're right there, if they
are come sick, or you know, there's something that's not
fully take care him on the child care front, there's
a part of your brain and your emotional you know,
(16:05):
concentration that's occupied by that. UM and I remember that feeling.
It's so true. My kids are six for three and one,
and my mother, she was a teacher in Ohio from
my childhood, but after she retired, she came out to
Seattle from Ohio to help me. And I really don't
(16:28):
think I could have started my company if my mother
hadn't been been here to help us, because I needed
that um, that safety and knowing that I could travel
and she would always be there. Well, and that's the thing,
you know, just to bring things to present day, you know,
one of the things at times that we're talking about
right now. And you know, we just did sort of
(16:48):
an activation with you know, California assembly Member Buffy Wicks,
you know who you do a my former staffers um
around caregiving. You know, we are headed into in this
country a care caregiving crisis on top uh the healthcare crisis,
the economic crisis, the racial justice crisis. The fourth one
is now going to be caregiving. As schools don't open,
(17:09):
childcare centers go under, right, you know that we have
a childcare system that operates on very thin margins and
they are going out of business. And you know, lawyers
and doctors are gonna find We're gonna find childcare that
we can higher in. But it is lower and middle
income women who are dependent upon our school system are
dependent upon a network of you know, childcare centers or
(17:33):
in home childcare that's evaporating, UM, that are finding that
they don't know what to do. They are in a
literal crisis as we speak. They actually can't afford to
not go to work. But then what do they do
with their kids who are school age and learning virtually?
But like, are they supposed to stay home alone all day?
Can they safely stay home alone all day? You know,
(17:53):
this is a it's a real crisis, not just for
those individual women, but you know, for our overall economy.
You know, we had made progress to the point where
women were of the labor force, and this particular crisis,
and there's several and several articles written about this now
has the potential to undo what has been now several
(18:14):
generations of progress on the increase in women's labor force participation.
And what that means is our economy as a whole
will lose the talent, They're going to lose the resources, um,
and we are going to suffer overall as a nation
if we do not figure this out as a collective problem,
not an individual problem for moms to figure out on themselves,
(18:36):
but as a public policy imperative, as a business imperative
for employers to figure out not just leave their workers
to figure out on their own. Well, it's also intertwined
with Time's Up, right, because if few women are in
the workforce, then it it sort of paves the way
and opens the door for a lot more discrimination, uh,
and harassment. So this is a good time for us
(18:58):
to ask you about your work at time ms UP
and then we can go back to the White House,
because I know we want to hear about that, but
but tell us about times UP and how you join
and what that experience has been like. Well, you know,
my joining times Up was a little bit, a little
bit like being in Springfield at the right time. Um,
I just happened, you know, this is October, you know,
(19:18):
and the Harvey Weinstein articles had just come out. I
had just joined and gone back to private practice after
the White House and started a practice actually about three
weeks before the first Harvey article on advising companies on
workplace culture, because I had seen the need for that
kind of advice through the work on the Working Family's
Agenda in the administration. And I happened to be in
(19:39):
Los Angeles for something entirely different amy. Actually it was
to play in United States Women's why I was in
Los Angeles also, I mean I have worked done together,
and um happened to be in the offices where these
women from Hollywood had just spontaneously come together, having realized
for the first time that they weren't the only ones, right,
I mean this the culture of silence that had developed
(20:01):
in the nondisclosure agreements and the threatening people with lawsuits
that they spoke out, you know, environment that existed not
just in Hollywood, been in other workplaces, really meant that
women who were these you know, objects of sexual harassment
thought they were the only ones and therefore continued to
keep silent as a vicious circle. Well, the incredible recording
(20:22):
from the New Yorker or the New York Times blew
that open, and they all of a sudden realized they
weren't alone. They had gathered together to support one another.
But to their credit, they didn't want to just do that.
They actually very quickly wanted to turn that pain into action,
to do it on behalf of women, not just in
their industry, but who didn't have the same platforms. And
(20:43):
it really literally just happened to be there as those
conversations were coming together, and we sort of realized very
quickly that one of the things that was necessary was
legal resources, both to help women who were being sued
for defamation because that's part of the predators playbook, and also,
as it turns out, low wage women who didn't have
access to lawyers because even though you get attorney's fees
(21:05):
when you see for sexual harassment, if your wages are
so low, so the recovery is so low. Turns out
thousands of low wage women have never had access to
really vindicate their employment rights because they can't find lawyers
who can afford to take their cases. So from Matt,
you know, we you know, I really helped put together
at the Times of Legal Defense Fund, you know, which
(21:27):
you know, we famously raised the twenty four million dollars
for right after the Golden Globes launch um A hundred
percent of the twenty four million went to the National
Women's Law Center, which houses the Times of Legal Defense
Fund and um UH And since then we've served you know,
nearly five thousand individuals, you know, with both legal support
and pr advice if they if they choose to speak out.
(21:49):
UM but over the course of eighteen, I continued, you know,
all of us who are part of the leadership to
stay involved to figure out what else do we need
to do. Wasn't It was by no means for sure
that we're we needed an advocacy organization, although it became
clear that we did right on issues, not just to
support survivor justice, but also to not you know, to
start to create a world where we weren't just dealing
(22:10):
with the aftermath of sexual harassment, right we needed to
create workplaces where it doesn't happen in the first place.
And to do that, I think, as Sam, as you
were referencing, you need to create SAFEIR and dignified work,
which means you need to have women represented up and
down the wage scale. You need to address structural barriers
and keep that from happening, like equal pay and paid
(22:31):
leave and caregiving and fair pay and promotion. And so
that is now the advocacy agenda, you know, four times
up UM, which is to work for you know, as
as we say, to create SAFEEIR and dignified work by
UM working with culture, company and laws. So that's that's
(22:51):
not not a small task, that's I mean, it's an
enormous task. It is the work of a lifetime. Really,
So walk us through how a woman reports today harassment,
assault or discrimination at work through times up. Yeah, so
(23:12):
you know, if someone is in need of help but
they've experienced something, or they've reported to the company and
they're not getting you know, a satisfactory response, or they
need to file a claim, you know, and people should
recognize that the statutes of limitation on these kinds of
claims are is very very short. So if you think
you have been the subject of some form of sexual harassment,
(23:35):
you should reach out either to your HR department or
to the times of Legal defense funds are both very quickly.
What is the typical statute of limitation six months? What
how is that even possible? Into Title seven? As written
into Title seven is a hundred and eighty days, you know,
(23:56):
because you know, Congress didn't really want to enact sex
just Comination Tattle seven. So so that you know that
now we have lengthened it. There are many state jurisdictions California,
New York, you know, elsewhere that have lengthened for state claims,
but for federal Title seven claims days to get your
claim into the e o C. And that's for workplace discrimination,
(24:18):
not for rape, because didn't you you you you last
year change cuomos Okay, So so talk about that too,
because it's really this whole statute of limitation thing is incredible.
In the work you've been doing around it, it's amazing.
So you know what you're talking about. Sam is remarkably
New York had some of the shortest statutes of limitations
for rape and sexual assault, so just you know what happens.
(24:41):
It could be the workplace, it could be on the street,
it could be in your home. You know, actual criminal
These are for criminal claims, not workplace claims. UM and
New York had some of the shortest statutes of limitation.
And several of our women activists in New York actually
led by Robbie Kaplan, you know, the amazing you know
lawyer and our board chair. We're sitting around and kind
(25:04):
of like on a napkin. Grabby has kept a napkin,
you know, mapping out if we needed to change things
in New York law what sho are we doing and
came up with a New York Safety Agenda, and it
included things like lengthening out the statute of limitations for
rape and sexual assault under New York law, because what
we also know about these claims is trauma is and
(25:26):
these are you know, some of the most violative traumatic
crimes that can be perpetrated against someone you know is
really deep and it takes a long time often for
someone to come forward or to remember the details or
be able to report um. And in the meantime, the
other thing we know about people who rape is they
are repeat offenders. Right, So when we were doing campus
(25:49):
sexual salt work, you know, we sort of know that
nine of the campus sexual starts are being committed by
five to six percent of the people, right because actually
the Hunting grab were you involved in the Hunting Ground,
but I know that that was definitely the most if
you haven't seen it, amy the Hunting Ground, the documentary
about about college campus sexual assault was so powerful, and
(26:10):
one of the most powerful things was finding out not
just that colleges are covering it up, but also that
the same people are raping again and again, and because
colleges cover it up, they're just repeat offenders, and the
colleges are actually the reason they're repeat offenders. It's it's
it's unbelievable right, and our whole overall justice system works
that way, and that the short statutes limitations contributes to that.
(26:32):
So you know, we got together and passed. You know,
this extension of the statue limitations is about actually, Um, Sam,
I think the anniversary of that, you know, of a
year ago of the bill signing that we did with
Governor Cuomo, Um and Mirror Sorvino and Michelle Heard, you know,
and others Kathy and Jamie there with Governor Cuomo to
sign that bill is just about coming up on its
(26:54):
year anniversary. So you know it was it was you know,
that's what happens when collective action takes place. You can
really what was the change it was from what to what?
You know it was, so you're not testing my memory
because it was two different classes. It was the most
serious and the secondary class, and one went from like
(27:14):
eight to fifteen years, another one from five to ten
years something like that. And that's a big change, right,
it was a big change. I had a question about
New York, So why hasn't Times hit Wall Street or
really law firms? So remember really the way Times up happened, Um,
(27:36):
and was kind of an organic coming together women in
the industry, right, so with women in entertainment who came
together pushed for changes within the entertainment industry and beyond
outside the entertainment industry. Pretty shortly thereafter, you know, in
the early months of UM women in advertising did the same,
(27:57):
you know, led by Colleen de Corsi and Wine Kennedy,
and they came together in a big way. And so
as a result, we have Times of Advertising Department so
to speak, within Times of that has organized you know,
a whole a network of women in advertising to work
on the issues. And then also at the same time,
women in healthcare came together, and interestingly, it was a
group led by a group of really outspoken, wonderful e
(28:20):
er docs you know, Estra Chew and Rick Cass who
are very famous now if you've been watching the news,
because you know, long before they were the PPE experts,
you know, they actually came together and formed Times of Healthcare.
And so, you know, we have like a whole set
of activities really driven by women in the industry. And interestingly,
although you know, there have been lots of individual cases
(28:42):
in law firms, like there's a Jones Day lawsuit, there's
some other cases in the finance space, there hasn't been
that critical mass, I guess of collective women coming together.
We've been talking to folks in the finance space and
the legal space about what we can do. Interestingly, just
before the pandemic, if we were going to sort of
see if rather than trying to organize banks and then
(29:05):
law firms and then accounting firms, maybe the idea would
be to get the whole finance ecosystem right professionals together,
because then there's a little more strength in numbers um.
And we were starting to sort of see what could
we do with people like Sally Crowcheck and others on
strategizing on what we could do, and then the pandemic hit.
But it really was aiming sort of driven by internally,
(29:27):
you know, women in the industry is coming together. And
you and I both come from that world, and I
think it's as hard as it is an entertainment or
advertising or healthcare. I feel like in the finance world,
you know, Wall Street, it's even harder. You're more isolated.
As women, you are so beholden to your reputation. I
mean entertainment is too, but for whatever reason, you know,
(29:50):
they're you know, there there are fewer women at the
top who are willing to stick their next out and
actually talk about what their experiences. So we haven't seen it.
All the other structural barriers that keep women isolated in
those industries I think have made it really difficult for
them to come together. Did you ever feel like there
was a momentum in the beginning that would just continue
(30:11):
and maybe it's it's stopped and started a bit. How
do you feel about that? Do you feel like the
momentum is still there? You know? I do think the
momentum is still there. It's something you worry about, right,
I mean, obviously as an activist, as a movement person,
now somebody who's earning an organization full time on these issues,
you worry about that. Um. But I do think sadly
(30:32):
there is no shortage of new examples, you know, so um,
I think by the time this airs, we will have launched,
you know, a digital campaign against the Washington football team.
So for those of you not in d C, if
you've been you know, not following it, the Washington Post
has been publishing over the last couple of weeks a
series of articles with over fifty women and then you know,
(30:54):
some of them cheerleaders, but not just cheerleaders, also people
who worked in the front office of the Washington Football
team who have documented years of sexual harassment and abuse
and being you know, basically, you know, asking the cheerleaders
to come and sit on people's laps in the sweet
you know, in the owner's suite kinds of behavior. You know. Actually,
the more most recent um documented allegation is the fact
(31:16):
that they did a calendar shoot, and outtakes from the
calendar shoot that we're particularly revealing up women's body parts
were asked to be clipped together for a highlight reel
for the owner and his board. So so we're you know,
we're calling on you know, these are women who are
under n d A s, under nondisclosure agreements. So we
(31:38):
are calling on the Washington Football Team to release them
from their n d as, for the NFL to conduct
its own investigation, and for the other NFL owners to
really look and see is this the kind of owner
we want in our league? And that is a clause
that they can invoke, right, I mean, the National Football
League has the ability in their league agree to kick
(32:00):
out owners, right who don't represent the values on the NFL. Well,
you know, we're sort of asking the NFL, are these
your values and maybe it's time to take action, you know,
at the league level. If someone is listening right now
and wants to report something, and maybe they did send
an India, maybe they didn't, what would be the process
(32:21):
of reporting it? Two Times up we're getting in touch
with Times up right, so you can go to the
National Women's Last Center websites, says nw LC dot org.
You can also I'm sure, google Times of Legal Defense on.
You can also get to it through our Times up
Now website which is Times up now dot org or
um you can text you know UM join to three
(32:43):
or six four four, which will get you into our
system at at times of UM. Then you'll be asked,
you know, just question. You'll you know, certain basic questions
about what your cases and about, and you'll get linked
to someone at the National Women's Law Center to talk
to you about what it is and on what happens
Is you get referred, you will be given the name
of three lawyers you know, UM hope, preferably in your
(33:06):
geographic area, and you can talk with each of those
three and then you make a decision about which one
of those three you want to work with. This is
to comply with all the legal referral laws, which aimy
you'll you'll know there's like lots of very arcane state
laws around legal referrals. But you know, here the client
will make his or her own decision about who to
go with. And then most of the lawyers in that
(33:28):
network have agreed to handle cases or certainly provided that
the initial consultation is free UM. And they have also
you know, um agreed to sort of handle a lot
of these cases free or for low bow low low cost.
And then there's a separate process for folks who need funds. Right.
So some of the lawyers are you know, some of
the best employment lawyers are their own solo practitioners right
(33:52):
or small shops UM, and don't have the money to
you know, fund class you know cases in front of
you know, provide money up front. And so there's a
separate application process which lawyers can go through to get money,
UM for funds for specific you know things that they
need money for in those cases UM. And then finally
(34:14):
for UM survivors who want to speak out. You know,
so a lot of people, as we mentioned, statial limitations
may have passed, but somebody actually wants to speak at them.
In the Washington case, there's a lot of those incidences
are way past entertatial limitations UM, and that's actually how
perpetrators get away with this UM. And it's still important
to hold them accountable and that survivors have their moment
(34:34):
to speak and tell their story if that's what they
want to do. I want to stress that that we
very much have as a touchstone. This is all about
what survivors make the decision to do. If you want
to speak or you don't want to speak. If you
want to speak, we will make sure that a survivor
first as a lawyer so they're advised on defamation, you know,
UM risk or any other issues, and then if they
(34:55):
want to speak, we can also link them with Promoto
PR support because a lot of times, you know, survivors,
they get out it in an article or they speak
out and all of a sudden they are deluged right
by press, by social media attacks, other things, and we
felt it was important for survivors to have PR support
as well. So you've been a change maker your entire career,
(35:19):
whether as an attorney working for the State of Illinois
or at the White House. So if we can go
back to two thousand nine, you left the left scadon
and you arrive in d C. At the White House?
What was that like for you? I have no good
How did you meet? The President's story like how we
(35:39):
first met. But I always supported him in his campaigns
and in his Senate campaign and of course in his
presidential campaign. And so when he got into the White House,
he asked me to come and I worked. My first
job was um working with Valery Jarrett. She was the
Senior Advisor for Public Engagement and Inner Governmental Affairs, and
I ran what we came Office of Public Engagement in
(36:01):
those first two years, which was essentially the President's outreach office.
You know the phenomenon where if there was an office,
then nobody else in the government took response, would take
responsibility for women and girls? Right, if you create a council,
which we did, of every Cabinet agency, every major White
House policy office, they were all members of the president
charged every one of them was thinking about women and girls.
(36:23):
Then if sexual sult in the military comes up, it's
depending on the responsibility will oversee it from the White
House and hold their feature the player. But they got
to solve the problem. They can't just like look down
the table and say not my problem is your problem,
because you're the Office of Women and Girls. So, you know,
I think it was untried. You know, it had not
been done before. I think some of the I'll be honest,
(36:45):
some of the women's groups were a little skeptical in
the beginning. They were a little hostile. I remember one
meeting where Valory just looked at them and said, just
give us a chance, you know, just give us, give
us a chance to see if this will work. And
I think it was pretty successful. Um. And I think
by the end of the eight years, you know, most
of the groups would agree that they had more access
(37:05):
to the president than they had ever had before because
Valerie and I were both there at every key meeting. Um,
that we were able to get more done because we
were actually had people working on these issues in every
part of the federal government. Um and um, you know,
I think that's what we were able to do. Issues
on sexual assault, on military, on fit, working family issues,
(37:29):
you know, on global issues affecting women and girls, you know, internationally. UM.
So it was, it was it was really sort of
a great effort, all culminating as you know, Amy and
United States Women, which was our final event in June
that brought all these issues together and which Valerie and
I and Jordan Brooks have continued right as an organization
(37:52):
post sixteen that really brings together all the threats of
the women's movement. Because my experience that the councilwoman in
Girls was to live firsthand how fragmented the women's movement is. Right,
everybody's working in silos. The health care people don't talk to,
the violence against when people don't talk to the gender
equity people in the workplace. And yet I will say,
(38:14):
women don't live their lives and silos, right. So you know,
the same woman is, you know, trying to figure out
how to get her kids into school while she's dealing
with the fact she's got to get a mammograham and
she's dealing with a sick parent, and she doesn't need
equal paying her job. And the idea that she's got
to go to five different places right to find that
information or get advocacy on this seemed crazy. So equal
(38:39):
pay you just basically describe my life. Yeah. So, but
that's why, as you know, and Amy, you've been a
big supporting United States of Women. You know, that is
really an umbrella organization to bring everybody together. We want
to honor the work that people are doing, you know what.
We don't want to displace at work, but we want
to make sure everyone is both connected to each other
and then connected to the grassroots activists across the kind
(39:00):
tree who are doing this great work. You ended up
working very closely with Michelle Obama has her her star
seems to have risen and risen and risen since the
White House. Has that surprised you in any way? Or
is that something you predicted? I did always know and
I could see it in the work UM that we
were doing, you know, as their chiefest staff that you know,
(39:22):
this is a brilliant woman who is incredibly thoughtful and
has been able to match a really highly um highly
informed intellect and deep thinking about issues to never losing
sight of her roots and average people. I mean, she
used to be within the White House, you know, be
the person who would have comments about, oh, you know,
(39:45):
this is what the average person is really thinking, you know,
and you know she would be you know, we were successful,
I think in some of our East Wing work on
promoting things like let's move, you know, and UM or
other issues because she wasn't watching this on the new shows.
She was watching what the rest of America's watching, like
HGTV right or so even the White House, she was
(40:07):
the person really still in touch, right with what you know,
an average mom was struggling with or thinking about. And um,
so I think what you are seeing post White House
is um all of that that you saw in the
White House, but unleashed, shall we say, right now she's
no longer constrained by, you know, the what she had
(40:32):
to do to be first Lady the United States, or
what she had to do to be the wife of
the President of the United States. I mean she was
also very clear during our time in the White House
that there was only one person who was elected in
the building and that everything all of us did had
to be in service of his agenda, you know, which
is right. I mean, that's actually not a being a
(40:54):
subservient wife thing. That's being a good citizen and a
good student of democracy, which is the one person in
the building who's elected as the president. That's the agenda
that the people have elected to serve. And so all
of us, herself and her team, including me included, should
be thinking about that um. And so all of the
(41:15):
work we did, if you think about our initiatives, were
all directly LinkedIn in service of you know, the President's
healthcare agenda. In the case of Let's Move Reach Higher
was the President's education agenda. UM, Joining Forces was our
work of the military. And then let Girls Learned was
obviously this international agenda that we adopted across the board
on international girls education. But post White House, she's been
(41:37):
able to have her own agenda right and really regain
her own voice in her own way. And UM, I
hadn't experience. I'll just share with you guys. I don't
know if I ever said this publicly, but her first
stadium tour, first of all, like the idea that she
would fill a stadium, none of us actually thought that
was gonna happen, right, Like you know that that was
an idea. It was like, okay, maybe, but really, what
(41:57):
are you gonna do for like, you know, to ours
with six people? Um, turns out like it really works.
But I sat in the first one, you know, in Chicago,
and there was like every you know, a few minutes
or so, she'd say something where there were it's like
muscle memory. There would be this involuntary reaction, I would
have because it was a little ledgy, right, and it
would be the kind of thing I had spent you know,
(42:20):
six years being really schooled at tamping down or redirecting
or no, we can't quite go that far. And I
had to catch myself and realize who cares? Right, you know,
she gets to say whatever she wants to. Now there
is no election at stake. There is you know, no
agenda we're trying to promote other than what she wants
to talk about. And I think that authenticity, uh, you know,
(42:44):
both her her brilliance and how she makes observations and
her willingness to be vulnerable, so all of things. For example,
her recent conversation about being wildly depressed in this this
environment that resonates with folks, and it is a conversation
and you don't often hear people of her stature saying
(43:04):
in the public sphere. It's amazing too, because she is
the world's most admired woman. And I think that she's
so courageous in her authenticity and we're all lucky to
get to hear it now. All right, Yeah, so Sam
and I end every podcast with a lightning round different questions,
(43:25):
and then our found engineer Lou will jump in with
his last question, but I'll start, what is your morning routine? Well,
my morning routine under COVID has changed, so I will
say that I have actually been pretty good about getting
up and working out, which was never my entire life.
I have never done that. Clear not to sort of
(43:46):
like I am with you, Cina, I just started post
COVID working out. I'm with you, So you know that's
the one thing. Is that because because I like you
don't have to spend an hour commuting right and driving
down town, that I've actually been using that to work out.
So that's like a whole like new thing, very new.
I love it. Sam. When was the last time you
(44:09):
put your foot in your mouth? Yeah? Like probably an
hour ago. You know, I'm not trying to remember the
precise because I actually one of my survival keys is
that I don't hang onto stuff that's bad and I
don't remember it, therefore it's like gone from my memory. Um.
I have that same thing, and my family gets so frustrated.
(44:31):
My kids will be like remember the time. I'm like,
I really don't. I try to only remember the good
moments I used to hang onto it too long? Right,
So I think as women, I think one of one
of our familis is sometimes we hang onto that stuff
too long and we beat ourselves up over and over.
So this is actually a learned tactic is to sort
of let it go. So, um, I am sure it
was fairly recent, but I couldn't tell you exactly what
(44:55):
what book are you reading? Oh, well, that's kind of interesting,
you'll not you will out here the range of my
reading interests. Um, I just finished Sarah Perevski's latest book. So,
if you don't know Sarah Perevski, she is a fabulous
Chicago author who writes this amazing detective novel. She has
this wonderful um woman detective the I wor Showski. It
(45:16):
is all set in Chicago. So I just finished that
and actually is typically what I try to do. But
like the next book, I'm picking up his cast right
because I do. Oh yeah, I've heard cast. So I'm
going from detective novel too cast and so you know,
doing some more, more more thoughtful work. Now, my kids
are a little older than Amy. So my final question
(45:37):
of our lightning round is how often do you talk
to your adult kids? Oh? Well, my youngest adult kid
who's twenty three, lives with me so multiple times a
day night. She's now she's now a school teacher. My
older child, UM is now a marine officer stationed in Okinawa,
(45:59):
so we talked to him about once a week. We
do a FaceTime thing usually on the weekends, UM with
him about once a week. Wow. Alright, well, Tina, we
have loved our conversation. Lou has been listening this entire time,
and he always comes up with a juicy of a
final question. Okay, I can't want to thank you so
much for everything that you're doing. UM. Me personally updated
(46:22):
about maybe thirteen girls, and I can only think of
two that haven't actually been a victim of some type
of sexual assault or or some type and it's it
is and and another thing that that I noticed from
just asking them questions is it's like a repeat thing.
It happened when they were younger, and then it happened
again when they're older. So is there any work that's happening,
(46:44):
UM that you may know about where where they're like
trying to get at the root of the problem like before,
it can never happen again or even prevent it. From
happening to children, like maybe some education for parents or
for schools or do you know of anything that's happening. Well,
there's been a lot of efforts, you know to try
(47:05):
to develop a curriculum you know, around you know, early
in earlier stages, and it's you know, we started doing
it on rand campus sexual assault and developing curricula, but
we were you know, we were one of the things
that happened when we just ran out of runway and
the Obama administration was then starting to develop that same
work for K through twelve right and sort of reaching
down UM. So there is a lot of work on UM.
(47:26):
I think that's been working UM with one organization that
I love that is the National Coalition of Local Rape
Crisis Centers, which is the National UM Network to UM
End Sexual Assault and then a e s v UM
which is terrific and it is really connected to all
of the local rape crisis centers. But I will also
(47:46):
say an important event that is coming up which is
not a time's up event. We are partners for it,
but UM later on this month, UM Toronto Burkes Me
Too organization and UM in partnership with the nationals A
Center and partnership with us. At times up, we'll be
holding a Survivor's summit really intended to provide a platform
(48:08):
and resources and support for survivors both to speak out
and share their stories, but also if they don't want
to speak out, to find strength from one another and
UH and to really be a safe place that is
exclusively designed by and for survivors. So you know, the
Survivor's agenda and the Survivor's Summit. UM. I think if
(48:30):
you go to the National Woman's Last Center website and
WLC dot org that I gave out earlier, um or
um find the Meat Too movement, you know Toronto Burke's
move to. They are the sponsors of the survivors summit
that's coming up. Tina has such a low key way
of talking about the fact that she was Michelle Obama's
(48:52):
chief of staff. She's at the forefront of the Meat
Too movement, and it sometimes sounds like she's talking about
another day at the office. There's so much to glean
from that. I know. It was really interesting too, because
you know, it goes beyond just those points in her
career too, Like she grew up as the sole Chinese
American in her community in Ohio, and so she really
(49:13):
had to learn how to navigate the different terrain that
was you know, she was the only one there most
of the time, and I think that's probably has carried
through with her career and her personal life. It's just
really interesting to talk to her so thoughtfully about all
those different transitions. If you are listening and you have
been a victim, hopefully this conversation will inspire you to
(49:34):
come forward with your story and to seek justice in
whatever way that is for you. And if we can
help you in any way, we're here for you. You
can reach us at our website at www. Got What's
the Story Podcast dot com. This podcast is powered by
(49:55):
my company, park Place Payments, which you can find at
park Place Payments dot com, and Amy's company, the Ribeter,
which you can find at the Riveeter dot co. And
a huge thank you to our producers at Large Media.
We love working with a women owned company who's doing
all of this magic behind the scenes. And also a
(50:16):
thank you to Emma Hard and our male cast member
Lou Burns. Thanks for listening.
Hosts And Creators
Samantha Ettus
Amy Nelson
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