November 18, 2024 • 42 mins
In high school, Francisco didn’t fit in with his white, upper middle class, conservative classmates and he didn’t want to. Maybe it was teenage angst, but his identity revolved around being different and rebellious. As he got older, he channeled his punk rock spirit into a fight for social change. Now, he’s a community organizer in Philly dedicated to finding common ground.
My brother Francisco has always been someone I’ve looked up to because he’s never been afraid to stand up for what he believes is right. I loved sitting down to rehash our childhood memories together, but I also learned what motivates him to get up every morning and do the hard work of building a better world. As our country experiences a resurgence of strikes, mutual aid, and activism I thought we could all take something away from Franscisco’s winding path towards organizing.
To learn about the organizations and resources Francisco mentions in the episode, check out the Center for Popular Democracy (and their affiliates), the AFL CIO, Democratic Socialists of America, Make the Road NY, and the Working Families Party.
Note: This interview happened prior to the election.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
The identity of that matters most to me is that
I am a person. I'm a human. Yeah, and the
thing that matters most to me is what do I
do with being human?
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Welcome to when You're Invisible. My name is Maria Fernanda Vies,
but I know not everyone can roll their ours, so
it's fine to call me Maria. When You're Invisible is
my love letter to the working class and others who
are seemingly invisible in our society. I hope to build
a community here that will inspire you to have generous
(00:33):
conversations with others that are different from you, conversations that
might help you see life in an entirely different way.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
Let's get started.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
This is so cool. I have my brother across from me.
Do you want to introduce yourself? And by do you
want to please introduce yourself?
Speaker 1 (00:57):
The look in his eye was like do I No?
The real question was which name do I introduce myself with?
My name is Francisco Las.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
The consideration that Francisco has with his name is one
that we all have when you have a long Latin name.
For example, Francisco's full legal name is Francisco Andres Bies Busso.
I laugh at this moment because of course he's considering
that at the top of an interview, and it's hilarious
because he's super excited to do this interview. He's getting goofy,
(01:32):
but then he's also slowly, ever so slightly sliding into
what I call his interview mode, his professional mode, where
he straightens his body and you can see his head
tilting just like ever so slightly to make sure that
you know he's in position, ready to go. It's a
fun little phenomenon to watch. My brother, Francisco is one
(01:54):
year older than me. I call this Mexican twins since
we're two months shy, being Irish twins. He's a goofy
person in private, but he's very serious and passionate when
he talks about the things he cares about, which we
all will notice. I have a particular image of my brother.
He is smart, thoughtful, driven at time's intense, and definitely
(02:18):
marching to the beat of his own drum. He loves
Radiohead and Blink one eighty two, and at his core
he's always been an alternative punk rock soul. He's a short,
five to five man with small wooden hoops in his
ears and he's had a beard since high school, and
when he's not in T shirts, you can find him
wearing floral button ups. Since we ended last season talking
(02:43):
to my parents, I thought this interview was the perfect
place to start off season two. The person I spent
the most time with what was you? Yep, we are
best friends and we have been since we were kids.
What did we do for fun?
Speaker 1 (02:58):
We built like couch for and like created whole invented stories,
and then we played with legos and we played soccer
with our dad a lot. I think traveling with you,
mom and dad like that was always great. And I
think the fact that we traveled all the time meant that,
like change wasn't bad. There was always something exciting to explore,
something exciting, to know something new, to see that something
(03:22):
that I think about a lot.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
So Francisco and I were born in Ithaca, a New
York college town, in community with Latinos from different countries
and different ethnicities and actually a lot of different immigrants.
It was a community of people who helped each other
out immensely. It was an amazing thing to grow up
in and honestly it shaped both of us. Our family
(03:47):
then moved to Minnesota when we were in grade school,
which was a big change in all of our lives,
and once we went off to college, our parents moved again,
this time to Georgia. In addition to changing our hometown,
our family would travel back to Mexico a lot. My
parents were also big on road trips. Francisco and I
spent a lot of time in the backseat of a
(04:09):
car to gather traveling across the country to visit different
sites in state parks. Francisco was known for always asking
where are we going, what are we doing, Who's coming?
I was known for saying I want to go home.
Meeting new people and experiencing the unknown where things we
both learned to work with. So with our life experiences
(04:30):
being similar, what are some of the core things you
think we share?
Speaker 1 (04:34):
Like?
Speaker 2 (04:34):
What comes to mind?
Speaker 1 (04:36):
We share a lot. I think we have similar values,
both personal moral values or virtues that we try and practice,
and as a result, we have very similar politics. What
else do we share? An appreciation for art?
Speaker 2 (04:52):
How do we differ?
Speaker 1 (04:56):
I think I'm a little bit nerdier than you are, in.
Speaker 2 (04:59):
A b in a cool way to me, I always
wished I was nerdy like you. It's interesting how you
can grow up side by side with someone and share
so many life experiences and still end up with such
different personalities because as close as we are, we are different.
Something that surprised me during this conversation was learning how
differently we viewed our identities as in betweeners. We're Mexican
(05:23):
and American, we speak Spanish, English, and French. We're white
passing Latinos. We grew up in diverse communities, in white
communities and Latino communities. We grew up working class on
food stamps and then later became middle class. And we
have all of these different elements to ourselves, which means
(05:44):
that we belong to a lot of different communities, which
is beautiful, but it also means we don't fully belong
in any single community. And I think personally, I learned
to own this part of me early on. It was
something that I found beautiful and empowering and grounded me
when other people didn't know how to place me. And
(06:05):
I think Francisco's journey coming to terms with that was
actually not quite the same as a person who is
in between in terms of growing up, Like, do you
feel like you ever felt lonely or do you feel
like there's a power in that is.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
Our power in having this in between identity that feels
kind of lonely. Not really in my opinion, because I
think power is a feature of the collective, and so
I really don't believe that there is like a whole
lot of power other than the fact that being in
between men that we were familiar with multiple different experiences
(06:45):
of people and able to translate those things.
Speaker 2 (06:50):
For Francisco, power is all about commonality and connection, and honestly,
that's a foundation.
Speaker 1 (06:57):
Of who he is.
Speaker 2 (06:58):
My brother is a unity organizer in Philly. In the US,
we've been seeing a resurgence of strikes and of mutual aid.
I feel like people are getting tired of the fact
that things never change, and we're starting to believe in
the power of the people again and take action around
that on a bigger scale. I've always been interested in
(07:19):
how these movements start and in the people who make
them possible. I really wanted to interview Francisco because being
an organizer is not just his job, it's his passion,
it's his mission in life, and it encapsulates who he is.
I think it actually just highlighted who he's always been
He's always cared about politics and people. He's always stood
(07:41):
up for what he believes in and what he believes
is right, no matter what others think. And he's done
that for as long as I can remember. When did
you first become interested in politics?
Speaker 1 (07:51):
I think it was probably sometime in third ish grade
when I realized that, like history, politics was the formal
arena in which major things changed history were decided, and
that was how I perceived politics. Like what was interested
in the Maya, the Aztecs, I watched the History Channel.
I still remember the day when we learned about World
War two. Yeah, in third grade, and that was super
(08:14):
captivating to me.
Speaker 2 (08:16):
It's cute because this curiosity about history and politics at
a young age made me think about his own ability
to think strategically and where that came from. He's always
been someone who has had his eye on the future,
and he's always looking at the big picture. And as
he grew up and went to high school, I think
this really became a mechanism for survival.
Speaker 1 (08:37):
I saw us focusing on school, on my academics as
a method to get away from the place that we
were growing up in, because I did not like growing
up in Minnesota. I did not like most of my
peers at the time, and I wanted to be far away,
and to me, staying in Minnesota felt like being stuck
in hell with these people who said horrible things to me. Yeah,
(09:02):
not infrequently.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
To fit into our high school in the suburbs of
Saint Paul, you had to be white, conservative, upper middle
class Protestant where Abercrombie and Fitch in the Old American Eagle,
and that just wasn't Francisco, what was a defining moment
for you as a kid.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
The first thing that came up into my brain was
being bullied in high school, explicitly around several different themes. Right,
one was being left leaning or a do gooder, or
someone who said that's racist or that's sexist, or that's
classiest or whatever. Like, I think the thing that was
like vitally important to me was the fact that, like,
(09:44):
why are you saying horrible things about people like me
that you were saying You're not like that basically because
you are extremely white passing.
Speaker 2 (09:53):
Francisco always wanted to stand up for people, even when
he wasn't the target of bullying, but it was never
to shame anyone. It was always to create better empathy
and understanding. One thing he always asks is why, And
I think his curiosity about the why it was an
(10:14):
attempt to show people the double standards or biases that
they were using, and that was something that personally affected
him oftentimes just because he wasn't recognized as being Mexican
or having immigrant parents, whether it was because he was
light skinned, or his intelligence versus the stereotypes that people
(10:34):
at school were used to. It didn't mean that he
was going to hide any part of himself. And the
thing about being an in betweener is that you can
get attacked for fitting into stereotypes, whether you're called derogatory
terms like we back bean er, lazy, or you can
be targeted for pushing up quote unquote against the stereotypes,
(10:56):
you know, for being the smart one, or for speaking
articulate English as people would say, you're damned if you
do and you're damned if you don't.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
One of the defining moments that I think I had
a lot of trauma around for a long time was
this moment where in history class I was forced to
basically debate the entire class because I was the only
one who believed in reparations for slavery. And there was
a point at which I was being yelled at by
the other side, and the source of things that they
(11:28):
were saying, calling me a fag, calling me very derogatory
terms for being Mexican, very derogatory terms for being a leftist.
They called me a commie, you know, and all these
things combined, and the fact that they had to resort
to trying to insult my identity as a human being
(11:51):
during the debate, it was, Yeah, it was pretty difficult.
Speaker 2 (11:56):
Being in a situation like this. It forces Francisco to
think about how all people see him and how they
see people like him. It exposes his classmates bias and hate,
and he's being put into a box when he's just
a teenager dealing with hormones, still trying to figure out
who he is.
Speaker 1 (12:13):
I think what was very difficult about being bullied was
that I didn't even know who I was, and I
was being labeled things. I was being labeled a fag.
It turns out I like ended up being more queer
than not queer, like being attracted to people. I didn't
have really limitations on what I thought was attractive and
who I thought was attractive, right, I mean called a kami,
(12:34):
and I didn't know what I was. I knew I
was at least liberal, but I also didn't think I
was just a liberal. Also, being called things about being
Mexican was also something like, okay, so I clearly don't
belong here. I'm also American. I'm United States in right,
like I was born in this country, I am a citizen.
(12:54):
We were taught growing up that like, borders exist, but
they don't really make difference on the value of a
human life.
Speaker 2 (13:03):
This culture of cruelty was very counterintuitive to what we
had grown up with, which was a foundation of unconditional love.
And thankfully, because of Francisco's ability to hold on to
the core of who he was, he was still able
to find really good friends.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
In high school, some of the people I hung out
with were kids who lived in trailer parks because there
were weirdos and emokahs and punks, and they were the
ones who didn't really care who I was, and I
just hung out with them. And I think that was
a very different sort of experience. You know, I haven't
talked about the positive aspects, but that was like one
of the positive aspects. I think and like us, having
(13:40):
similar ideas that this was all dumb and ridiculous.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
Francisco during this time embraces his otherness, the punk rebel
inside of himself, because it was an ugly place to
fit in. He didn't want to be a part of
this culture.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
The one thing I will say is that I think
my identity really mattered to me as a way to
differentiate myself from others. And I think that might just
be teenage angst tendencies, but what I think ended up
mattering more to me as I grew older and as
I became an organizer and got inspired by people who
changed the world for others and themselves. The things that
(14:19):
we held in common were much more important than the
things that differentiated us. Yeah, and I think that is
the biggest shift in my understanding of identity.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
Francisco ends up leaving Minnesota when he gets into Yale
for college. There he meets some of his best friends
to this day, and he continued to grow as a thinker, doer,
and overall person. This time further transformed how he thought
about himself and how he relates to others. He channeled
his once rebellious teenage self into an organizer. Yeah, he's
(14:54):
still an oddball in the best ways, but today he
cares less about standing out and be different and cares
more about commonality and community. That's coming after the break.
Speaker 1 (15:06):
Realizing look at all these white, black and brown people
that I am one of, that have so much potential
to fight and make things better for themselves, and that
we all deserve better.
Speaker 2 (15:20):
We'll be right back, welcome back to when you're invisible.
Speaker 1 (15:33):
The identities now that I matter most to me are
the ones that I've chosen. Probably the beginning of things
was when I found philosophy, was like, oh my god,
I can choose who I am.
Speaker 2 (15:45):
This makes me think of how this day and age
we focus a lot on the major identifiers of ourselves,
whether it's race, gender, sexuality, and while those are beautiful
parts of ourselves and worth all the acknowledgment, it's a
good thing to remember there's a lot of complexity in
layers in each individual that deserves to be noticed and celebrated.
(16:07):
Francisco personally has come to really connect with the parts
of himself that are doing and creating the world he
wants to build.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
The identity that matters most to me is that I'm
a worker, yeah, and that I'm an organizer.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
He works for the Center for Popular Democracy, where he
helps people fight for workers' rights on a state and
national level, whether writing policy or leading actions.
Speaker 1 (16:30):
And what an organizer means is that I'm interested in
helping more people discover their own self interest and their
own power, and their ability to come together and to
grow that group of people.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
Right, Francisco laid out the beliefs he's developed and the
things he's come to really care about in his work.
Speaker 1 (16:48):
The way I thought about what my politics were was
slowly orienting in a direction of believing that regular people
should have power, like I knew, I wanted a society
that was like had strong levels of equality of opportunity.
I mean, like true equality of access to advantage, so
that a person who has a little bit and a
(17:09):
person who has a lot have actually the same equal
opportunities to get the same position. People actually have real
freedom of choice. In most workplaces, almost no one has freedom.
The workplaces where we get closest to some level of
freedom is in unionized workplaces. And then the last thing
is having community matters a lot. I'm someone who now
(17:31):
belongs in a political tradition that believes all human beings
are equal, that we deserve to live in safe, free communities,
and that we don't have that right now, and that's
something really deep has to change in our society.
Speaker 2 (17:45):
These values are very personal and deeply rooted within him.
It's part of how he sees himself and his story
and our story, and that keeps him grounded even when
the chaos and the loneliness feel overwhelming.
Speaker 1 (17:58):
What are the political traditions that I can identify with
our family history? Right? People in the United States often
tell stories of their great grandparents fighting in World War
Two or things like that. That's a point of pride because, yeah,
they fought fascists. Our great grandparents were in the Mexican Revolution,
(18:19):
and there is a deep history to be very proud
of as Mexicans, of the political ideas that people were
willing to fight and die for.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
Can you say a little more about that.
Speaker 1 (18:30):
Mexico abolish slavery way before the United States did, because
partisan Guaretro was of mixed African, indigenous and white ancestry
in Mexico City.
Speaker 2 (18:42):
Was part of the underground railroad, was it? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (18:45):
I didn't know that.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
Yeah, part of the Southern underground railroad was to go
all the way to Mexico.
Speaker 1 (18:49):
Well, it makes sense.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
The founding of Mexico itself and the Mexican Revolution are
fights for liberation of all its people. We have working
class and poor people fighting against elite landowners for the
redistribution of wealth. And honestly, what's beautiful about Mexican history
is that there are Mexican scholars who are constantly trying
to reclaim and preserve Mexico's complex history of resistance and liberation.
(19:16):
And we were always told these stories at the dinner
table with my parents, and we got to hear the
stories of how our family was involved in that personal way.
Speaker 1 (19:24):
And then I think, as someone who identifies in a
Pan Latino American sort of way, you know, the history
of the fight for freedom independence in South America is
also worth noting because the fight for liberation was by
unifying all these different people ethnicities and nationalities and racial
(19:47):
groups under one manner. And to do that you had
to promote a vision of equality that mattered to everyone.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
Like Mexican history, Latin America is its own inspiration. For
my brother, someone who really looks up to is Simon Boliverer,
who fought for the end of colonial rule and united
people across ethnicities and nationalities. It's somewhat the origins of
Latini Dad to me at least, and it roots Francisco
in a sense of history, purpose and care. What was
(20:17):
your first experience with organizing.
Speaker 1 (20:19):
My very first experience with organizing was really like when
I did volunteering for the Obama campaign in two thousand
and eight. I would knock on doors in our suburban
neighborhoods in Minnesota, right as a part of that process,
and that was very interesting. That was me coming face
to face with white supremacy and white supremacist myths. Very quickly.
(20:40):
People would tell me things like Obama is a black
Marxist who wants to destroy this country m hm. And
you have to be really, really racist and have really
racist ideas to buy that. And it was also my
first lesson in how to deal with mass rejection.
Speaker 2 (20:58):
Right, Okay, So that was the first time, and then
as an adult I.
Speaker 1 (21:02):
Was organized again. In college. I was basically brought into
the unite Here organizing world. Unite Here is a union
for everyone who's listening that has done really good job
of organizing unions of workers on Yale's campus and throughout
the city of New Haven and have been really effective
at organizing, and people close to them have been very
(21:23):
good at organizing elected local elected officials. Yeah, and I
got involved on knocking on doors for those folks the
way I did for Obama.
Speaker 2 (21:32):
Before his senior year of college, Francisco got to experience
community organizing abroad for his thesis. He connected with Latin
American activists when he was doing research in Ecuador for
the summer. Then, after graduating, he decides to go abroad again.
He accepts a job in South Africa.
Speaker 1 (21:50):
I had left the country with the intention of not
permanently coming back, because my opinion of the state of
American politics in twenty fourteen was that it was fucked
all the way through and that there was no chance
for anything good to happen, and that the best chance
(22:12):
for this country was for it to decay. And that's
a pretty depressing, nihilistic sort of attitude from a child
of privilege who knew nothing about actually building power. Yeah,
I'm just going to say it that way.
Speaker 2 (22:24):
Which, So, what, for example, has that changed how you
view the US?
Speaker 1 (22:30):
It has changed pretty dramatically, right, I think there were
a couple things that changed that. Right, I think I
was in a position of privilege to want to leave
the United States and try and find a place to
leave the United States. I wanted to go to Ecuador.
I wanted to go to somewhere in South America and
go work for some exciting left wing politicians there. Right,
something that had happened when I had done research in Ecuador,
(22:53):
when I had talked to organizers, activists and government officials
and leaders, was if you had mentioned, like you should
consider doing the work in the United States. And my
attitude was why. And the thing that I was running
into was people in different places saying things like we
(23:16):
need you and people like you in the United States
to change the United States. There is going to be
limitations on what we can do here if your country
does not change. Yeah, we need you in your country
because you know what's wrong with it.
Speaker 2 (23:31):
I think we've all heard of the jokes of like, oh,
I should move to Canada whenever something bad happens, And
I think like this is a moment where Francisco himself
acknowledges his own privilege of being able to think about
like I'm never going to come back, but it's through
these conversations that he fully understands and grasps the reach
and the power that the US has globally, and as
(23:54):
a result, the importance of actually staying and working in
his home country.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
And I think there was a deep sense of at
the time of okay, that's fair. And it was really
in organizing that I realized, oh my god, everyone is
worth fighting for. There are peoples of Latin America in
this country who are in the process of building power,
who have been organizing for a long time in very
(24:21):
difficult conditions and conditions you and I have not experienced.
And then also realizing, look, look at all these white,
black and brown people who are that I am one of,
that have so much potential to fight and make things
better for themselves, and that we all deserve better.
Speaker 2 (24:42):
Eager to find his place in the States, Francisco discovers
something he really wants to be a part of a growing,
people powered, working class centered movement. He writes a letter
and soon enough is officially part of the Bernie Sanders
campaign for President.
Speaker 1 (24:57):
I was formally trained as an organizer, and I started
working for the twenty sixteen Bernie Sanders campaign in New Hampshire.
We were told you will have no one out here
to support you, essentially, and you have to build everything
from scratch. I actually organized a group of volunteer organizers
(25:18):
to build an effective electoral machine capable of getting Bernie
Sanders to win the primary in the particular area I
was assigned to. It will forever be one of my
great privileges that I actually got.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
To do that you were in it every day, every moment.
Is there a particular moment that stood out to you
that was like, this is what I'm fighting for, this
is the this is what gives me strength every day
to keep going even against odds.
Speaker 1 (25:48):
I think a lot of people in this country are
told you can't do something, and they're reminded constantly in
different ways that there are limitations on what you can
or can't do. There's this particular moment in early September
of twenty fifteen that a US Senator who went to
a gala for the local Democratic Party in New Hampshire,
(26:11):
and I introduced myself together with my supervisor. After I
introduced myself as someone who's working for Bernie Sanders, he
told me to my face, that's nice, but it's Hillary's turn.
Hillary's going to win this primary, and I was so angry.
Speaker 2 (26:25):
Yeah, Francisco felt like this people powered movement that he
could feel building all around him was being totally dismissed,
like it wasn't real, like it didn't matter. But against
all the odds, this campaign proved the political establishment wrong.
Speaker 1 (26:40):
We won. We won in New Hampshire, and we won
by a landslide. We proved that for a moment, someone
who is based in working class people who said what
the heck was going on and said what was wrong
with the society, and said that inequality in our society,
in racial injustice and white supremacy and patriarch are wrong,
(27:02):
and that we need a fundamental change in the way
our society is structured to at least try and address
those things. Should be elected. Everyone slogging it through, going
to door after door to door and being told we're
not interested to then them changing their minds to growing
a team to be billing an effective group of people
(27:23):
who were highly disciplined and highly dedicated and saw their
self interest as fundamentally tied to that election. Those are
the moments that you fight for.
Speaker 2 (27:32):
In a moment, we'll hear how far he's come since
he felt like giving up on the US, and how
he maintains hope and energy in his work today. That's
after the break.
Speaker 1 (27:42):
The idea of changing the world is not worthwhile, But
one of the things that I think is worth considering
is that you might be able to change your world
and make it better.
Speaker 2 (27:55):
Stay with us, and we're back.
Speaker 1 (28:04):
What motivated me and what motivates me is I want
to live in a world without bulliefs.
Speaker 2 (28:10):
Francisco has taken the painful moments in his life and
used them to help him identify with others who have
been bullied in different settings.
Speaker 1 (28:18):
And no matter the scale, I want to have what
happened to me in high school not happen to anyone
else because of arbitrary circumstances of my birth being the
reason why they think I'm less worthwhile than they are.
Speaker 2 (28:32):
You know, something that comes up a lot in the
season of When You're Invisible is being underestimated. Something that
I admire about all our guests this season is that
despite being underestimated, they all maintain their own self worth
and they see the value in the people around them.
And something that I love about my brother is that
(28:55):
even when he's most underestimated. Francisco still believes in the
power of the little.
Speaker 1 (28:59):
Guy, whether that you're a woman, whether you're queer, whether
you're gender queer, whether you're black, whether you're poor and
working class white people like you all know what it
means to be told you're less than human. Any one
of those groups might not be more than half of
the population, but together all of those groups are.
Speaker 2 (29:19):
When you're told you can't do something, when you're struggling,
when you feel unheard, the anger that bubbles up can
actually change things.
Speaker 1 (29:27):
Anger is righteous, The anger is absolutely righteous. But who
you choose to be angry with really does matter. Yeah,
who you end up blaming for that problem is a
huge issue. Right. For example, if you are a white
person in this country, or a black person or whomever,
and are told immigrants are the reason why you're not
(29:47):
getting X, Y, and Z, you are being lied to
by someone who has an interest in pitying you against
the immigrants, because the person who is doing the lying
is probably has something to gain from that division. Because
that was true from before the founding of this country.
The experience of Bacon's rebellion in the sixteen hundreds, poor
(30:07):
whites and escaped slaves and free blacks banded together in
Bacon's rebellion to fight against the Virginia Planter your class.
It's this really beautiful moment. And then the planter class
in Virginia literally having to write up a law codifying
creating the idea of race itself. Yeah, to try and
(30:27):
divide populations tells you a lot.
Speaker 2 (30:30):
And the opposite of succumbing to that division is coming together.
Speaker 1 (30:37):
There's something beautiful that all the greatest changes in the
world have happened when a couple of people said this sucks. Yeah,
two people saying together, this sucks. Let's do something about it.
We all have an interest to fight together, and it
is hard. Organizing is really difficult. But my fundamental theory
is that if you can bring people together to work together,
(31:01):
we can change our worlds and our experiences. And I
think that is worthwhile. Will things be perfect, No, but
things can get better.
Speaker 2 (31:10):
What would you say to people who feel like they
can't do it, that they can't get involved, or that
it's pointless, who have given up on this country?
Speaker 1 (31:19):
The idea of changing the world is not worthwhile. But
one of the things that I think is worth considering
is that you might be able to change your world
and make it better. If you can talk to a
coworker talk about what really sucks in their life, you
(31:40):
can change You can change your world. Right, it's happening.
Speaker 2 (31:46):
What would you say to our listeners who are middle
class up ammudal class.
Speaker 1 (31:51):
You are working class. If you work for your labor,
you are workers and your fate is fundamentally tied to
the workers beneath you, and you should treat them like
human beings.
Speaker 2 (32:02):
Francisco isn't just emotionally attached to this. He also understands
the research backing this way of living.
Speaker 1 (32:09):
There are studies that are coming out about the levels
of poverty and how poverty changes and the levels of
violence and how that changes in a community when more
people in that community become unionized. Within the United States, Wow,
and you win in union contract and you win union benefits,
Like that's pretty incredible. That is an improvement in your
life that is worthwhile. Is it hard? It is some
(32:32):
of the hardest work you will ever do. The odds
are definitely stacked against you, but the odds were stacked
against so many other people. I'm interested in winning. Right,
people have won.
Speaker 2 (32:43):
Every big win in history was not just made possible
by the name we know in our history books, but
by people like you and me helping to build that movement.
It's important that we see ourselves, everyday people as part
of history, and we've been building momentum for generations.
Speaker 1 (33:01):
Anyone who says that something can change really quickly in
very short amount of time, it's probably lying to you.
The only way that I've ever seen the world change
for the better in a really deep way. Even the
big things that the big politicians have done, is usually
because they're scared of someone who has a lot of
power below them, who's coming from below to the top.
(33:23):
And I guess that's really what my politics are about,
is start with the bottom. Let's go with the ranks
of everyone. The Sovil Rights Act did not happen immediately, right.
It wasn't because Lennon B. Johnson and JFK had a
sudden switching their attitudes. It was because amazing organizers like
Ella Baker and Bayard Rustin and Martin Luther King Junior
(33:46):
and others around them whose names but most of us
will never know, decided it was worth fighting for their rights,
and they brought more people into it together, and they
worked with other organizations to make it happen.
Speaker 2 (33:59):
Francisco has a ton of these examples that help inspire
him in his day to day.
Speaker 1 (34:05):
You know the founding of the UAW in the nineteen thirties.
Speaker 2 (34:09):
The UAW is the United Auto Workers Union. You might
know their name because they conducted a series of very
successful strikes this past year negotiating a better contract, including
better wages. The UAW was one of the first unions
to do multi racial organizing when.
Speaker 1 (34:25):
They decided to sit down and these multinational immigrant communities
who were working in these plants, right, everyone's, oh, they're
all white. No, there are Italians, there were Swedes who
did not speak the same language with each other, decided
to coordinate together and do sit down strikes together.
Speaker 2 (34:40):
I love sitting with those tangible, real examples of when
people have won. I think a common thing we think
about when we're thinking about change is that we can try,
And to me, it's refreshing to hear we can, must
will and have one Like if someone's like, I've never
(35:01):
met an organizer, but I'm interested in trying to fricking
change my circumstances. Who would they go to.
Speaker 1 (35:09):
Organizing a union is I think the number one way
that people can do big change in their workplaces. And
you can reach out to a union by going to
the afl CIO's website.
Speaker 2 (35:20):
The afl CIO is the largest group of unions in
the US. Some other great organizations to check out our
DSA aka Democratic Socialists of America, the Working Families Party,
Make the Road, and there's so many others. Francisco's workplace,
The Center for Popular Democracy has a whole list of
(35:40):
amazing affiliates on their website. We'll throw links to some
of these in our show notes. There's a lot that
motivates Francisco. It's really inspiring, but he's had to build
that up over time. He deeply connects with the people
he works with, partially because they're There have been times
when he's felt invisible, Like in his early twenties, before
(36:04):
he became an organizer, I was.
Speaker 1 (36:07):
Had almost no support system, and it felt like everything
I was doing was pointless because it was not being accepted,
and felt like it was constantly being rejected and not
being even supported.
Speaker 2 (36:18):
What I've noticed for my brother is organizing has not
just been a journey of fully seeing the power of communities,
but also realizing his own value.
Speaker 1 (36:30):
I'm lucky in a way because I in various stages
of my life, I think I've been able to feel
visible to a lot of people or at least some people,
and made me feel like I was visible at least
to someone.
Speaker 2 (36:45):
In some ways, I think He's learned to subvert the
feeling of being invisible and turning it into something where
he can find strength, into a way of being part
of the collective. And in the collective we take turns
being seen.
Speaker 1 (37:00):
Really amazing organizers and workers who are organizing that I
get to work with and they get to lead the
movements that belong to them that I get to help them.
In my job, one of the things I love the
most is getting to work with some of my colleagues
and work very closely with these workers to help them
develop their ideas into demands. And for me, that sometimes
(37:23):
means I'm a little bit invisible as a facilitator, but
it's a way in which I'm very grateful I get
to be that way because this is about them, their interests,
and their experiences.
Speaker 2 (37:35):
I think Francisco took this feeling of invisibility and our
signature question and turned the way we look at this
on its head. Something that I've been thinking about is
also invisibility can be a superpower. It can be something good.
It depends on how you view it. And the other thing,
too is who's doing the viewing right.
Speaker 1 (37:57):
In some ways, I'm very great full to be invisible
so that others may be visible a little bit better.
Speaker 2 (38:04):
Francisco's ultimate goal is to help others feel capable and
help them enact the change they wish to see. No
matter your role in a movement, it's tough and tiring work.
You have to figure out what keeps you moving forward.
How do you keep up energy and hope day to
day or long term?
Speaker 1 (38:26):
I think you have to look at the right place
to find hope. The national level is a pretty depressing
thing to look at people's needs and the things that
they understand to be really wrong or being totally ignored constantly. Yeah,
on the national level is not really exciting, right, But
my thought is that it is worth looking for the
sites of hope outside of those places. Hope is about
(38:48):
the belief that something can be different than it currently is,
and that it is possible to change, and there is
hope everywhere. There are hope in countless workplaces right now,
all across the country where they're where workers are daring
to say enough is enough. We deserve better, and we
deserve to be treated like human beings, and we deserve
to have at least some say in the conditions under
(39:10):
which we work. That is hope. There are attempts at
changing legislation on the state, city and county level in
all sorts of places to make things better. There are
campaigns in places like Philadelphia, that's where I live, people
and workers are organizing for some basic anti retaliation protections
(39:30):
and better workers' rights on the city level, and that's
really awesome, and including domestic workers in those protections. There
are gig workers in Seattle, Washington that want first of
their kind rights to paid sick leave, to a basic
minimum income. Those are victories. Things that you didn't that
we didn't think we're going to be possible, are actually happening.
Speaker 3 (39:54):
You know.
Speaker 1 (39:54):
I think that's something that for me really does matter
to really think about. Right. Hope is everyone or you
just need to know where to look, and hope is
a discipline. I think you need to be hopeful if
you want to change your life, not just your life,
but like people who you care about, your colleagues' lives,
your family's life. You have to have that attitude.
Speaker 2 (40:16):
It was really important for me to start this season
with a voice who inspires me to keep going, to
be braver than I've possibly been before, and to hope.
I want to take this moment and have us think
about what we want. What do you wish could change,
Whether you wish everyone in your community had a livable wage,
(40:36):
whether you want to be able to save for retirement,
whether you want clean parks, whether you wish your loved
ones could have access to good and healthy food, or
get to see a doctor without being terrified of the cost. Ultimately,
this is the message that Francisco leaves us with.
Speaker 1 (40:57):
If you're listening to this, you are worth fighting for.
You deserve twin.
Speaker 2 (41:05):
But was so beautiful is Throughout my conversations with people
during this season of When You're Invisible, some things that
just kept shining through were the ideas of building community,
finding inner strength, and proving people wrong when they underestimate you.
And I can't wait to share what we have in
store this season. Next week, we are going to my
(41:30):
high school We're going to meet an old friend of
mine from Minnesota, someone who, despite being bubbly popular and
active for most of high school, ended up becoming increasingly
misunderstood because she was dealing with something beneath the surface
that nobody could see.
Speaker 3 (41:46):
When it's really bad, it feels like a migraine in
your whole body, and so much of it is like
when you have a really bad nod in your shoulder,
except it's in every muscle, like it's in all of
the muscles.
Speaker 2 (42:01):
We'll talk about chronic pain, resilience, trust, and telling your
story with art next Monday. Thank you so much for
listening to When You're Invisible. Please leave us a rating
and a review to let us know what you think.
You can find this episode and future ones on the
iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
(42:22):
When You're Invisible is a production of iHeart Podcasts and
Mike Couldura podcast Network. I'm your creator and host Maria
Fernanda Dies. Our story editor is Dylan Hoyer. This season
was produced by Me, with additional production from Dylan Hoyer.
Sound design and engineering by Laurence Stumf. Original theme music
(42:43):
by Tony Bruno. Our executive producers are Anna Stump and
Gisell Banzes, and special thanks to our lean Santana
The identity of that matters most to me is that
I am a person. I'm a human. Yeah, and the
thing that matters most to me is what do I
do with being human?
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Welcome to when You're Invisible. My name is Maria Fernanda Vies,
but I know not everyone can roll their ours, so
it's fine to call me Maria. When You're Invisible is
my love letter to the working class and others who
are seemingly invisible in our society. I hope to build
a community here that will inspire you to have generous
(00:33):
conversations with others that are different from you, conversations that
might help you see life in an entirely different way.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
Let's get started.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
This is so cool. I have my brother across from me.
Do you want to introduce yourself? And by do you
want to please introduce yourself?
Speaker 1 (00:57):
The look in his eye was like do I No?
The real question was which name do I introduce myself with?
My name is Francisco Las.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
The consideration that Francisco has with his name is one
that we all have when you have a long Latin name.
For example, Francisco's full legal name is Francisco Andres Bies Busso.
I laugh at this moment because of course he's considering
that at the top of an interview, and it's hilarious
because he's super excited to do this interview. He's getting goofy,
(01:32):
but then he's also slowly, ever so slightly sliding into
what I call his interview mode, his professional mode, where
he straightens his body and you can see his head
tilting just like ever so slightly to make sure that
you know he's in position, ready to go. It's a
fun little phenomenon to watch. My brother, Francisco is one
(01:54):
year older than me. I call this Mexican twins since
we're two months shy, being Irish twins. He's a goofy
person in private, but he's very serious and passionate when
he talks about the things he cares about, which we
all will notice. I have a particular image of my brother.
He is smart, thoughtful, driven at time's intense, and definitely
(02:18):
marching to the beat of his own drum. He loves
Radiohead and Blink one eighty two, and at his core
he's always been an alternative punk rock soul. He's a short,
five to five man with small wooden hoops in his
ears and he's had a beard since high school, and
when he's not in T shirts, you can find him
wearing floral button ups. Since we ended last season talking
(02:43):
to my parents, I thought this interview was the perfect
place to start off season two. The person I spent
the most time with what was you? Yep, we are
best friends and we have been since we were kids.
What did we do for fun?
Speaker 1 (02:58):
We built like couch for and like created whole invented stories,
and then we played with legos and we played soccer
with our dad a lot. I think traveling with you,
mom and dad like that was always great. And I
think the fact that we traveled all the time meant that,
like change wasn't bad. There was always something exciting to explore,
something exciting, to know something new, to see that something
(03:22):
that I think about a lot.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
So Francisco and I were born in Ithaca, a New
York college town, in community with Latinos from different countries
and different ethnicities and actually a lot of different immigrants.
It was a community of people who helped each other
out immensely. It was an amazing thing to grow up
in and honestly it shaped both of us. Our family
(03:47):
then moved to Minnesota when we were in grade school,
which was a big change in all of our lives,
and once we went off to college, our parents moved again,
this time to Georgia. In addition to changing our hometown,
our family would travel back to Mexico a lot. My
parents were also big on road trips. Francisco and I
spent a lot of time in the backseat of a
(04:09):
car to gather traveling across the country to visit different
sites in state parks. Francisco was known for always asking
where are we going, what are we doing, Who's coming?
I was known for saying I want to go home.
Meeting new people and experiencing the unknown where things we
both learned to work with. So with our life experiences
(04:30):
being similar, what are some of the core things you
think we share?
Speaker 1 (04:34):
Like?
Speaker 2 (04:34):
What comes to mind?
Speaker 1 (04:36):
We share a lot. I think we have similar values,
both personal moral values or virtues that we try and practice,
and as a result, we have very similar politics. What
else do we share? An appreciation for art?
Speaker 2 (04:52):
How do we differ?
Speaker 1 (04:56):
I think I'm a little bit nerdier than you are, in.
Speaker 2 (04:59):
A b in a cool way to me, I always
wished I was nerdy like you. It's interesting how you
can grow up side by side with someone and share
so many life experiences and still end up with such
different personalities because as close as we are, we are different.
Something that surprised me during this conversation was learning how
differently we viewed our identities as in betweeners. We're Mexican
(05:23):
and American, we speak Spanish, English, and French. We're white
passing Latinos. We grew up in diverse communities, in white
communities and Latino communities. We grew up working class on
food stamps and then later became middle class. And we
have all of these different elements to ourselves, which means
(05:44):
that we belong to a lot of different communities, which
is beautiful, but it also means we don't fully belong
in any single community. And I think personally, I learned
to own this part of me early on. It was
something that I found beautiful and empowering and grounded me
when other people didn't know how to place me. And
(06:05):
I think Francisco's journey coming to terms with that was
actually not quite the same as a person who is
in between in terms of growing up, Like, do you
feel like you ever felt lonely or do you feel
like there's a power in that is.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
Our power in having this in between identity that feels
kind of lonely. Not really in my opinion, because I
think power is a feature of the collective, and so
I really don't believe that there is like a whole
lot of power other than the fact that being in
between men that we were familiar with multiple different experiences
(06:45):
of people and able to translate those things.
Speaker 2 (06:50):
For Francisco, power is all about commonality and connection, and honestly,
that's a foundation.
Speaker 1 (06:57):
Of who he is.
Speaker 2 (06:58):
My brother is a unity organizer in Philly. In the US,
we've been seeing a resurgence of strikes and of mutual aid.
I feel like people are getting tired of the fact
that things never change, and we're starting to believe in
the power of the people again and take action around
that on a bigger scale. I've always been interested in
(07:19):
how these movements start and in the people who make
them possible. I really wanted to interview Francisco because being
an organizer is not just his job, it's his passion,
it's his mission in life, and it encapsulates who he is.
I think it actually just highlighted who he's always been
He's always cared about politics and people. He's always stood
(07:41):
up for what he believes in and what he believes
is right, no matter what others think. And he's done
that for as long as I can remember. When did
you first become interested in politics?
Speaker 1 (07:51):
I think it was probably sometime in third ish grade
when I realized that, like history, politics was the formal
arena in which major things changed history were decided, and
that was how I perceived politics. Like what was interested
in the Maya, the Aztecs, I watched the History Channel.
I still remember the day when we learned about World
War two. Yeah, in third grade, and that was super
(08:14):
captivating to me.
Speaker 2 (08:16):
It's cute because this curiosity about history and politics at
a young age made me think about his own ability
to think strategically and where that came from. He's always
been someone who has had his eye on the future,
and he's always looking at the big picture. And as
he grew up and went to high school, I think
this really became a mechanism for survival.
Speaker 1 (08:37):
I saw us focusing on school, on my academics as
a method to get away from the place that we
were growing up in, because I did not like growing
up in Minnesota. I did not like most of my
peers at the time, and I wanted to be far away,
and to me, staying in Minnesota felt like being stuck
in hell with these people who said horrible things to me. Yeah,
(09:02):
not infrequently.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
To fit into our high school in the suburbs of
Saint Paul, you had to be white, conservative, upper middle
class Protestant where Abercrombie and Fitch in the Old American Eagle,
and that just wasn't Francisco, what was a defining moment
for you as a kid.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
The first thing that came up into my brain was
being bullied in high school, explicitly around several different themes. Right,
one was being left leaning or a do gooder, or
someone who said that's racist or that's sexist, or that's
classiest or whatever. Like, I think the thing that was
like vitally important to me was the fact that, like,
(09:44):
why are you saying horrible things about people like me
that you were saying You're not like that basically because
you are extremely white passing.
Speaker 2 (09:53):
Francisco always wanted to stand up for people, even when
he wasn't the target of bullying, but it was never
to shame anyone. It was always to create better empathy
and understanding. One thing he always asks is why, And
I think his curiosity about the why it was an
(10:14):
attempt to show people the double standards or biases that
they were using, and that was something that personally affected
him oftentimes just because he wasn't recognized as being Mexican
or having immigrant parents, whether it was because he was
light skinned, or his intelligence versus the stereotypes that people
(10:34):
at school were used to. It didn't mean that he
was going to hide any part of himself. And the
thing about being an in betweener is that you can
get attacked for fitting into stereotypes, whether you're called derogatory
terms like we back bean er, lazy, or you can
be targeted for pushing up quote unquote against the stereotypes,
(10:56):
you know, for being the smart one, or for speaking
articulate English as people would say, you're damned if you
do and you're damned if you don't.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
One of the defining moments that I think I had
a lot of trauma around for a long time was
this moment where in history class I was forced to
basically debate the entire class because I was the only
one who believed in reparations for slavery. And there was
a point at which I was being yelled at by
the other side, and the source of things that they
(11:28):
were saying, calling me a fag, calling me very derogatory
terms for being Mexican, very derogatory terms for being a leftist.
They called me a commie, you know, and all these
things combined, and the fact that they had to resort
to trying to insult my identity as a human being
(11:51):
during the debate, it was, Yeah, it was pretty difficult.
Speaker 2 (11:56):
Being in a situation like this. It forces Francisco to
think about how all people see him and how they
see people like him. It exposes his classmates bias and hate,
and he's being put into a box when he's just
a teenager dealing with hormones, still trying to figure out
who he is.
Speaker 1 (12:13):
I think what was very difficult about being bullied was
that I didn't even know who I was, and I
was being labeled things. I was being labeled a fag.
It turns out I like ended up being more queer
than not queer, like being attracted to people. I didn't
have really limitations on what I thought was attractive and
who I thought was attractive, right, I mean called a kami,
(12:34):
and I didn't know what I was. I knew I
was at least liberal, but I also didn't think I
was just a liberal. Also, being called things about being
Mexican was also something like, okay, so I clearly don't
belong here. I'm also American. I'm United States in right,
like I was born in this country, I am a citizen.
(12:54):
We were taught growing up that like, borders exist, but
they don't really make difference on the value of a
human life.
Speaker 2 (13:03):
This culture of cruelty was very counterintuitive to what we
had grown up with, which was a foundation of unconditional love.
And thankfully, because of Francisco's ability to hold on to
the core of who he was, he was still able
to find really good friends.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
In high school, some of the people I hung out
with were kids who lived in trailer parks because there
were weirdos and emokahs and punks, and they were the
ones who didn't really care who I was, and I
just hung out with them. And I think that was
a very different sort of experience. You know, I haven't
talked about the positive aspects, but that was like one
of the positive aspects. I think and like us, having
(13:40):
similar ideas that this was all dumb and ridiculous.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
Francisco during this time embraces his otherness, the punk rebel
inside of himself, because it was an ugly place to
fit in. He didn't want to be a part of
this culture.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
The one thing I will say is that I think
my identity really mattered to me as a way to
differentiate myself from others. And I think that might just
be teenage angst tendencies, but what I think ended up
mattering more to me as I grew older and as
I became an organizer and got inspired by people who
changed the world for others and themselves. The things that
(14:19):
we held in common were much more important than the
things that differentiated us. Yeah, and I think that is
the biggest shift in my understanding of identity.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
Francisco ends up leaving Minnesota when he gets into Yale
for college. There he meets some of his best friends
to this day, and he continued to grow as a thinker, doer,
and overall person. This time further transformed how he thought
about himself and how he relates to others. He channeled
his once rebellious teenage self into an organizer. Yeah, he's
(14:54):
still an oddball in the best ways, but today he
cares less about standing out and be different and cares
more about commonality and community. That's coming after the break.
Speaker 1 (15:06):
Realizing look at all these white, black and brown people
that I am one of, that have so much potential
to fight and make things better for themselves, and that
we all deserve better.
Speaker 2 (15:20):
We'll be right back, welcome back to when you're invisible.
Speaker 1 (15:33):
The identities now that I matter most to me are
the ones that I've chosen. Probably the beginning of things
was when I found philosophy, was like, oh my god,
I can choose who I am.
Speaker 2 (15:45):
This makes me think of how this day and age
we focus a lot on the major identifiers of ourselves,
whether it's race, gender, sexuality, and while those are beautiful
parts of ourselves and worth all the acknowledgment, it's a
good thing to remember there's a lot of complexity in
layers in each individual that deserves to be noticed and celebrated.
(16:07):
Francisco personally has come to really connect with the parts
of himself that are doing and creating the world he
wants to build.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
The identity that matters most to me is that I'm
a worker, yeah, and that I'm an organizer.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
He works for the Center for Popular Democracy, where he
helps people fight for workers' rights on a state and
national level, whether writing policy or leading actions.
Speaker 1 (16:30):
And what an organizer means is that I'm interested in
helping more people discover their own self interest and their
own power, and their ability to come together and to
grow that group of people.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
Right, Francisco laid out the beliefs he's developed and the
things he's come to really care about in his work.
Speaker 1 (16:48):
The way I thought about what my politics were was
slowly orienting in a direction of believing that regular people
should have power, like I knew, I wanted a society
that was like had strong levels of equality of opportunity.
I mean, like true equality of access to advantage, so
that a person who has a little bit and a
(17:09):
person who has a lot have actually the same equal
opportunities to get the same position. People actually have real
freedom of choice. In most workplaces, almost no one has freedom.
The workplaces where we get closest to some level of
freedom is in unionized workplaces. And then the last thing
is having community matters a lot. I'm someone who now
(17:31):
belongs in a political tradition that believes all human beings
are equal, that we deserve to live in safe, free communities,
and that we don't have that right now, and that's
something really deep has to change in our society.
Speaker 2 (17:45):
These values are very personal and deeply rooted within him.
It's part of how he sees himself and his story
and our story, and that keeps him grounded even when
the chaos and the loneliness feel overwhelming.
Speaker 1 (17:58):
What are the political traditions that I can identify with
our family history? Right? People in the United States often
tell stories of their great grandparents fighting in World War
Two or things like that. That's a point of pride because, yeah,
they fought fascists. Our great grandparents were in the Mexican Revolution,
(18:19):
and there is a deep history to be very proud
of as Mexicans, of the political ideas that people were
willing to fight and die for.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
Can you say a little more about that.
Speaker 1 (18:30):
Mexico abolish slavery way before the United States did, because
partisan Guaretro was of mixed African, indigenous and white ancestry
in Mexico City.
Speaker 2 (18:42):
Was part of the underground railroad, was it? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (18:45):
I didn't know that.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
Yeah, part of the Southern underground railroad was to go
all the way to Mexico.
Speaker 1 (18:49):
Well, it makes sense.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
The founding of Mexico itself and the Mexican Revolution are
fights for liberation of all its people. We have working
class and poor people fighting against elite landowners for the
redistribution of wealth. And honestly, what's beautiful about Mexican history
is that there are Mexican scholars who are constantly trying
to reclaim and preserve Mexico's complex history of resistance and liberation.
(19:16):
And we were always told these stories at the dinner
table with my parents, and we got to hear the
stories of how our family was involved in that personal way.
Speaker 1 (19:24):
And then I think, as someone who identifies in a
Pan Latino American sort of way, you know, the history
of the fight for freedom independence in South America is
also worth noting because the fight for liberation was by
unifying all these different people ethnicities and nationalities and racial
(19:47):
groups under one manner. And to do that you had
to promote a vision of equality that mattered to everyone.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
Like Mexican history, Latin America is its own inspiration. For
my brother, someone who really looks up to is Simon Boliverer,
who fought for the end of colonial rule and united
people across ethnicities and nationalities. It's somewhat the origins of
Latini Dad to me at least, and it roots Francisco
in a sense of history, purpose and care. What was
(20:17):
your first experience with organizing.
Speaker 1 (20:19):
My very first experience with organizing was really like when
I did volunteering for the Obama campaign in two thousand
and eight. I would knock on doors in our suburban
neighborhoods in Minnesota, right as a part of that process,
and that was very interesting. That was me coming face
to face with white supremacy and white supremacist myths. Very quickly.
(20:40):
People would tell me things like Obama is a black
Marxist who wants to destroy this country m hm. And
you have to be really, really racist and have really
racist ideas to buy that. And it was also my
first lesson in how to deal with mass rejection.
Speaker 2 (20:58):
Right, Okay, So that was the first time, and then
as an adult I.
Speaker 1 (21:02):
Was organized again. In college. I was basically brought into
the unite Here organizing world. Unite Here is a union
for everyone who's listening that has done really good job
of organizing unions of workers on Yale's campus and throughout
the city of New Haven and have been really effective
at organizing, and people close to them have been very
(21:23):
good at organizing elected local elected officials. Yeah, and I
got involved on knocking on doors for those folks the
way I did for Obama.
Speaker 2 (21:32):
Before his senior year of college, Francisco got to experience
community organizing abroad for his thesis. He connected with Latin
American activists when he was doing research in Ecuador for
the summer. Then, after graduating, he decides to go abroad again.
He accepts a job in South Africa.
Speaker 1 (21:50):
I had left the country with the intention of not
permanently coming back, because my opinion of the state of
American politics in twenty fourteen was that it was fucked
all the way through and that there was no chance
for anything good to happen, and that the best chance
(22:12):
for this country was for it to decay. And that's
a pretty depressing, nihilistic sort of attitude from a child
of privilege who knew nothing about actually building power. Yeah,
I'm just going to say it that way.
Speaker 2 (22:24):
Which, So, what, for example, has that changed how you
view the US?
Speaker 1 (22:30):
It has changed pretty dramatically, right, I think there were
a couple things that changed that. Right, I think I
was in a position of privilege to want to leave
the United States and try and find a place to
leave the United States. I wanted to go to Ecuador.
I wanted to go to somewhere in South America and
go work for some exciting left wing politicians there. Right,
something that had happened when I had done research in Ecuador,
(22:53):
when I had talked to organizers, activists and government officials
and leaders, was if you had mentioned, like you should
consider doing the work in the United States. And my
attitude was why. And the thing that I was running
into was people in different places saying things like we
(23:16):
need you and people like you in the United States
to change the United States. There is going to be
limitations on what we can do here if your country
does not change. Yeah, we need you in your country
because you know what's wrong with it.
Speaker 2 (23:31):
I think we've all heard of the jokes of like, oh,
I should move to Canada whenever something bad happens, And
I think like this is a moment where Francisco himself
acknowledges his own privilege of being able to think about
like I'm never going to come back, but it's through
these conversations that he fully understands and grasps the reach
and the power that the US has globally, and as
(23:54):
a result, the importance of actually staying and working in
his home country.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
And I think there was a deep sense of at
the time of okay, that's fair. And it was really
in organizing that I realized, oh my god, everyone is
worth fighting for. There are peoples of Latin America in
this country who are in the process of building power,
who have been organizing for a long time in very
(24:21):
difficult conditions and conditions you and I have not experienced.
And then also realizing, look, look at all these white,
black and brown people who are that I am one of,
that have so much potential to fight and make things
better for themselves, and that we all deserve better.
Speaker 2 (24:42):
Eager to find his place in the States, Francisco discovers
something he really wants to be a part of a growing,
people powered, working class centered movement. He writes a letter
and soon enough is officially part of the Bernie Sanders
campaign for President.
Speaker 1 (24:57):
I was formally trained as an organizer, and I started
working for the twenty sixteen Bernie Sanders campaign in New Hampshire.
We were told you will have no one out here
to support you, essentially, and you have to build everything
from scratch. I actually organized a group of volunteer organizers
(25:18):
to build an effective electoral machine capable of getting Bernie
Sanders to win the primary in the particular area I
was assigned to. It will forever be one of my
great privileges that I actually got.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
To do that you were in it every day, every moment.
Is there a particular moment that stood out to you
that was like, this is what I'm fighting for, this
is the this is what gives me strength every day
to keep going even against odds.
Speaker 1 (25:48):
I think a lot of people in this country are
told you can't do something, and they're reminded constantly in
different ways that there are limitations on what you can
or can't do. There's this particular moment in early September
of twenty fifteen that a US Senator who went to
a gala for the local Democratic Party in New Hampshire,
(26:11):
and I introduced myself together with my supervisor. After I
introduced myself as someone who's working for Bernie Sanders, he
told me to my face, that's nice, but it's Hillary's turn.
Hillary's going to win this primary, and I was so angry.
Speaker 2 (26:25):
Yeah, Francisco felt like this people powered movement that he
could feel building all around him was being totally dismissed,
like it wasn't real, like it didn't matter. But against
all the odds, this campaign proved the political establishment wrong.
Speaker 1 (26:40):
We won. We won in New Hampshire, and we won
by a landslide. We proved that for a moment, someone
who is based in working class people who said what
the heck was going on and said what was wrong
with the society, and said that inequality in our society,
in racial injustice and white supremacy and patriarch are wrong,
(27:02):
and that we need a fundamental change in the way
our society is structured to at least try and address
those things. Should be elected. Everyone slogging it through, going
to door after door to door and being told we're
not interested to then them changing their minds to growing
a team to be billing an effective group of people
(27:23):
who were highly disciplined and highly dedicated and saw their
self interest as fundamentally tied to that election. Those are
the moments that you fight for.
Speaker 2 (27:32):
In a moment, we'll hear how far he's come since
he felt like giving up on the US, and how
he maintains hope and energy in his work today. That's
after the break.
Speaker 1 (27:42):
The idea of changing the world is not worthwhile, But
one of the things that I think is worth considering
is that you might be able to change your world
and make it better.
Speaker 2 (27:55):
Stay with us, and we're back.
Speaker 1 (28:04):
What motivated me and what motivates me is I want
to live in a world without bulliefs.
Speaker 2 (28:10):
Francisco has taken the painful moments in his life and
used them to help him identify with others who have
been bullied in different settings.
Speaker 1 (28:18):
And no matter the scale, I want to have what
happened to me in high school not happen to anyone
else because of arbitrary circumstances of my birth being the
reason why they think I'm less worthwhile than they are.
Speaker 2 (28:32):
You know, something that comes up a lot in the
season of When You're Invisible is being underestimated. Something that
I admire about all our guests this season is that
despite being underestimated, they all maintain their own self worth
and they see the value in the people around them.
And something that I love about my brother is that
(28:55):
even when he's most underestimated. Francisco still believes in the
power of the little.
Speaker 1 (28:59):
Guy, whether that you're a woman, whether you're queer, whether
you're gender queer, whether you're black, whether you're poor and
working class white people like you all know what it
means to be told you're less than human. Any one
of those groups might not be more than half of
the population, but together all of those groups are.
Speaker 2 (29:19):
When you're told you can't do something, when you're struggling,
when you feel unheard, the anger that bubbles up can
actually change things.
Speaker 1 (29:27):
Anger is righteous, The anger is absolutely righteous. But who
you choose to be angry with really does matter. Yeah,
who you end up blaming for that problem is a
huge issue. Right. For example, if you are a white
person in this country, or a black person or whomever,
and are told immigrants are the reason why you're not
(29:47):
getting X, Y, and Z, you are being lied to
by someone who has an interest in pitying you against
the immigrants, because the person who is doing the lying
is probably has something to gain from that division. Because
that was true from before the founding of this country.
The experience of Bacon's rebellion in the sixteen hundreds, poor
(30:07):
whites and escaped slaves and free blacks banded together in
Bacon's rebellion to fight against the Virginia Planter your class.
It's this really beautiful moment. And then the planter class
in Virginia literally having to write up a law codifying
creating the idea of race itself. Yeah, to try and
(30:27):
divide populations tells you a lot.
Speaker 2 (30:30):
And the opposite of succumbing to that division is coming together.
Speaker 1 (30:37):
There's something beautiful that all the greatest changes in the
world have happened when a couple of people said this sucks. Yeah,
two people saying together, this sucks. Let's do something about it.
We all have an interest to fight together, and it
is hard. Organizing is really difficult. But my fundamental theory
is that if you can bring people together to work together,
(31:01):
we can change our worlds and our experiences. And I
think that is worthwhile. Will things be perfect, No, but
things can get better.
Speaker 2 (31:10):
What would you say to people who feel like they
can't do it, that they can't get involved, or that
it's pointless, who have given up on this country?
Speaker 1 (31:19):
The idea of changing the world is not worthwhile. But
one of the things that I think is worth considering
is that you might be able to change your world
and make it better. If you can talk to a
coworker talk about what really sucks in their life, you
(31:40):
can change You can change your world. Right, it's happening.
Speaker 2 (31:46):
What would you say to our listeners who are middle
class up ammudal class.
Speaker 1 (31:51):
You are working class. If you work for your labor,
you are workers and your fate is fundamentally tied to
the workers beneath you, and you should treat them like
human beings.
Speaker 2 (32:02):
Francisco isn't just emotionally attached to this. He also understands
the research backing this way of living.
Speaker 1 (32:09):
There are studies that are coming out about the levels
of poverty and how poverty changes and the levels of
violence and how that changes in a community when more
people in that community become unionized. Within the United States, Wow,
and you win in union contract and you win union benefits,
Like that's pretty incredible. That is an improvement in your
life that is worthwhile. Is it hard? It is some
(32:32):
of the hardest work you will ever do. The odds
are definitely stacked against you, but the odds were stacked
against so many other people. I'm interested in winning. Right,
people have won.
Speaker 2 (32:43):
Every big win in history was not just made possible
by the name we know in our history books, but
by people like you and me helping to build that movement.
It's important that we see ourselves, everyday people as part
of history, and we've been building momentum for generations.
Speaker 1 (33:01):
Anyone who says that something can change really quickly in
very short amount of time, it's probably lying to you.
The only way that I've ever seen the world change
for the better in a really deep way. Even the
big things that the big politicians have done, is usually
because they're scared of someone who has a lot of
power below them, who's coming from below to the top.
(33:23):
And I guess that's really what my politics are about,
is start with the bottom. Let's go with the ranks
of everyone. The Sovil Rights Act did not happen immediately, right.
It wasn't because Lennon B. Johnson and JFK had a
sudden switching their attitudes. It was because amazing organizers like
Ella Baker and Bayard Rustin and Martin Luther King Junior
(33:46):
and others around them whose names but most of us
will never know, decided it was worth fighting for their rights,
and they brought more people into it together, and they
worked with other organizations to make it happen.
Speaker 2 (33:59):
Francisco has a ton of these examples that help inspire
him in his day to day.
Speaker 1 (34:05):
You know the founding of the UAW in the nineteen thirties.
Speaker 2 (34:09):
The UAW is the United Auto Workers Union. You might
know their name because they conducted a series of very
successful strikes this past year negotiating a better contract, including
better wages. The UAW was one of the first unions
to do multi racial organizing when.
Speaker 1 (34:25):
They decided to sit down and these multinational immigrant communities
who were working in these plants, right, everyone's, oh, they're
all white. No, there are Italians, there were Swedes who
did not speak the same language with each other, decided
to coordinate together and do sit down strikes together.
Speaker 2 (34:40):
I love sitting with those tangible, real examples of when
people have won. I think a common thing we think
about when we're thinking about change is that we can try,
And to me, it's refreshing to hear we can, must
will and have one Like if someone's like, I've never
(35:01):
met an organizer, but I'm interested in trying to fricking
change my circumstances. Who would they go to.
Speaker 1 (35:09):
Organizing a union is I think the number one way
that people can do big change in their workplaces. And
you can reach out to a union by going to
the afl CIO's website.
Speaker 2 (35:20):
The afl CIO is the largest group of unions in
the US. Some other great organizations to check out our
DSA aka Democratic Socialists of America, the Working Families Party,
Make the Road, and there's so many others. Francisco's workplace,
The Center for Popular Democracy has a whole list of
(35:40):
amazing affiliates on their website. We'll throw links to some
of these in our show notes. There's a lot that
motivates Francisco. It's really inspiring, but he's had to build
that up over time. He deeply connects with the people
he works with, partially because they're There have been times
when he's felt invisible, Like in his early twenties, before
(36:04):
he became an organizer, I was.
Speaker 1 (36:07):
Had almost no support system, and it felt like everything
I was doing was pointless because it was not being accepted,
and felt like it was constantly being rejected and not
being even supported.
Speaker 2 (36:18):
What I've noticed for my brother is organizing has not
just been a journey of fully seeing the power of communities,
but also realizing his own value.
Speaker 1 (36:30):
I'm lucky in a way because I in various stages
of my life, I think I've been able to feel
visible to a lot of people or at least some people,
and made me feel like I was visible at least
to someone.
Speaker 2 (36:45):
In some ways, I think He's learned to subvert the
feeling of being invisible and turning it into something where
he can find strength, into a way of being part
of the collective. And in the collective we take turns
being seen.
Speaker 1 (37:00):
Really amazing organizers and workers who are organizing that I
get to work with and they get to lead the
movements that belong to them that I get to help them.
In my job, one of the things I love the
most is getting to work with some of my colleagues
and work very closely with these workers to help them
develop their ideas into demands. And for me, that sometimes
(37:23):
means I'm a little bit invisible as a facilitator, but
it's a way in which I'm very grateful I get
to be that way because this is about them, their interests,
and their experiences.
Speaker 2 (37:35):
I think Francisco took this feeling of invisibility and our
signature question and turned the way we look at this
on its head. Something that I've been thinking about is
also invisibility can be a superpower. It can be something good.
It depends on how you view it. And the other thing,
too is who's doing the viewing right.
Speaker 1 (37:57):
In some ways, I'm very great full to be invisible
so that others may be visible a little bit better.
Speaker 2 (38:04):
Francisco's ultimate goal is to help others feel capable and
help them enact the change they wish to see. No
matter your role in a movement, it's tough and tiring work.
You have to figure out what keeps you moving forward.
How do you keep up energy and hope day to
day or long term?
Speaker 1 (38:26):
I think you have to look at the right place
to find hope. The national level is a pretty depressing
thing to look at people's needs and the things that
they understand to be really wrong or being totally ignored constantly. Yeah,
on the national level is not really exciting, right, But
my thought is that it is worth looking for the
sites of hope outside of those places. Hope is about
(38:48):
the belief that something can be different than it currently is,
and that it is possible to change, and there is
hope everywhere. There are hope in countless workplaces right now,
all across the country where they're where workers are daring
to say enough is enough. We deserve better, and we
deserve to be treated like human beings, and we deserve
to have at least some say in the conditions under
(39:10):
which we work. That is hope. There are attempts at
changing legislation on the state, city and county level in
all sorts of places to make things better. There are
campaigns in places like Philadelphia, that's where I live, people
and workers are organizing for some basic anti retaliation protections
(39:30):
and better workers' rights on the city level, and that's
really awesome, and including domestic workers in those protections. There
are gig workers in Seattle, Washington that want first of
their kind rights to paid sick leave, to a basic
minimum income. Those are victories. Things that you didn't that
we didn't think we're going to be possible, are actually happening.
Speaker 3 (39:54):
You know.
Speaker 1 (39:54):
I think that's something that for me really does matter
to really think about. Right. Hope is everyone or you
just need to know where to look, and hope is
a discipline. I think you need to be hopeful if
you want to change your life, not just your life,
but like people who you care about, your colleagues' lives,
your family's life. You have to have that attitude.
Speaker 2 (40:16):
It was really important for me to start this season
with a voice who inspires me to keep going, to
be braver than I've possibly been before, and to hope.
I want to take this moment and have us think
about what we want. What do you wish could change,
Whether you wish everyone in your community had a livable wage,
(40:36):
whether you want to be able to save for retirement,
whether you want clean parks, whether you wish your loved
ones could have access to good and healthy food, or
get to see a doctor without being terrified of the cost. Ultimately,
this is the message that Francisco leaves us with.
Speaker 1 (40:57):
If you're listening to this, you are worth fighting for.
You deserve twin.
Speaker 2 (41:05):
But was so beautiful is Throughout my conversations with people
during this season of When You're Invisible, some things that
just kept shining through were the ideas of building community,
finding inner strength, and proving people wrong when they underestimate you.
And I can't wait to share what we have in
store this season. Next week, we are going to my
(41:30):
high school We're going to meet an old friend of
mine from Minnesota, someone who, despite being bubbly popular and
active for most of high school, ended up becoming increasingly
misunderstood because she was dealing with something beneath the surface
that nobody could see.
Speaker 3 (41:46):
When it's really bad, it feels like a migraine in
your whole body, and so much of it is like
when you have a really bad nod in your shoulder,
except it's in every muscle, like it's in all of
the muscles.
Speaker 2 (42:01):
We'll talk about chronic pain, resilience, trust, and telling your
story with art next Monday. Thank you so much for
listening to When You're Invisible. Please leave us a rating
and a review to let us know what you think.
You can find this episode and future ones on the
iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
(42:22):
When You're Invisible is a production of iHeart Podcasts and
Mike Couldura podcast Network. I'm your creator and host Maria
Fernanda Dies. Our story editor is Dylan Hoyer. This season
was produced by Me, with additional production from Dylan Hoyer.
Sound design and engineering by Laurence Stumf. Original theme music
(42:43):
by Tony Bruno. Our executive producers are Anna Stump and
Gisell Banzes, and special thanks to our lean Santana
Host
Maria Fernanda Diez
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