September 20, 2021 • 59 mins
Join Terri Cole, the bestselling author behind Boundary Boss, and LeAnn for a fascinating, personal and moving conversation that tackles the tricky process of cultivating boundaries to achieve more productive, functional and healthier relationships with ourselves and others.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Holy Human with Leanne Rhymes is a production of I
Heart Radio. Welcome my beautiful friends. Today's episode is one
of my absolute favorites because it is overflowing with great
information about the importance of building and maintaining healthy boundaries,
(00:22):
which I am sure is a topic that we could
all use a good dose of wisdom on and it's
coming from the wise and wonderful Terry Cole, the best
selling author of Boundary Boss and many others, and she's
my guest on today's Holy Human. Yet, actually, how are
(00:57):
my friend Terry Cole? Welcome? Welcome to the Whole Human podcast.
Thank you so so much for joining us. I'm so
pumped to be here. I'm so excited to have you here.
I have to say your book had me in all
the fields, your Boundary Boss book, when I knew that
you were coming on and I was like, Okay, I
have to dig into this book. I have to say
(01:18):
that it was it was a bit intimidating because I
feel like my boundaries have pretty much been non existent
for my whole life. Do you find that this is
a common feeling for people? Do you find that boundaries
are intimidating? Yeah? Completely, And if you're raised as a woman.
I mean, really think about it. Your situation is five
(01:41):
times more complicated because you became highly visible at a
young age. So let's just do this in front of
the whole world, fantastic, where normally we're just having no
boundaries whatsoever within our families or communities, because most of
us were raised and praised. If you were raised as
a woman for being a self abandoning, codependent, like we
(02:03):
got praise for the more self sacrificing, the more giving,
be nice, and this was like the highest virtue humanly possible.
For at least where I grew up, it was all
about being nice. So I just learned to say yes
when I really wanted to say no because I thought
being nice was more important than being honest. Wow, that's
(02:25):
it right there. I mean, we've put so much more
weight on being the nice especially, like you said, the
nice girl, the nice woman, instead of being truthful. And
when you say truth, what comes up for me as
the juxtaposition of being nice as being mean. Truth is mean.
That's kind of what I've equated. There's no way of
(02:46):
telling your truth without the anger and the bitterness and
the resentment and things that come behind that, And this
is a whole new lesson for me that I'm stepping
into in my own life of telling my truth in
a clear way without having to have the push of
all of these heavy emotions behind it, which is so hard, right,
(03:08):
but think about it this way. Part of why we
equate truth with meanness is a you wait too long
when you learn that you should suppress how you feel
if someone else won't like it. So this is like
people pleasing syndrome validation outside of ourselves. Then we wait
a super long time, so by the time you can't
(03:32):
even contain that truth anymore, you will use a sledge hammer,
even when like a pencil eraser would have done the trick.
Because we're so piste. We waited too long, and now
we're a volcano. Because the truth about frustration and not
being seen and not being heard and not being known
is that there's a cumulative effect. So it starts in
(03:55):
childhood and then it just goes from relationship to relationship
where you're like I, I'm checking boxes, making sure everyone
else has what they need. There's no conflict, I'm not
rocking the boat. You need to get to a point
where you're like and I can no longer do that,
you know, and that starts in childhood. I mean that
starts with our parents and the way that we were parented.
I know, I've been doing a lot of digging for myself,
(04:17):
and I know that I was basically confused manipulation with love.
I think a lot of us have God blessed my parents,
but that was the way her mom parented her, and
that's the way that I got parented. And so even
now I'm starting to realize in all the ways that
I manipulate, which is such a hard thing to rub
(04:39):
up against because to be honest about I'm not giving
out of love. I'm giving out of manipulation in order
to get my need met or out of fear. Then
you come up against the question of like, well when
do I give out of love? Like what is love?
What's something else other than manipulation? Because that's the way
we've learned to love, that's the way we learned to
(05:01):
get and receive love. And it's a it's a hard one.
Well it is. It's like facing the shadow self and
being like, Okay, I'm human. I've got the light, and
of course I have the darkness because we all do.
But I remember in my twenties and early third daies
first coming up against like what is my shadow self?
And it's super painful because we have a particular way
(05:23):
of perceiving ourselves ego dysk tonic. It's called where our
idea of ourselves? When I was, you know, codependently attached
to every human being on planet Earth in my life,
giving out of not not love, right, giving out of
wanting to be needed, and with codependency you're giving because
(05:46):
it's fear of rejection. There's all of the things that
are there. I really thought I was like mother Teresa.
Like honestly, I was like, I'm just a lover like that,
you know. I mean, I'm just I'm just all hard
as me until I had to me is in therapist
right who helped me see because I was trying to
(06:06):
manipulate and fix this situation that one of my siblings
was in that was a bad situation and abusive relationship, drugs,
no running water like that bad. Yeah, And I was
crying to my therapist and being like what am I
going to do? I've been I tried this, and I
tried that, Like what am I going to do? You know?
And she was like, hello, Well, since it's not your life,
(06:31):
watch and cry. I don't I don't know, but it's
not on me to do something. But she was like,
do you understand what's happening? And I was like no,
but please enlighten me because I really don't understand. And
she said, you've worked for twenty years in therapy or
fifteen years whatever it was at that point to create
a pretty harmonious in her life and a pretty harmonious
(06:54):
outer life, you know, relationships, whatever. So what's really happening
is that you want to fix your sister's problems because
her dumpster fire of a life is getting in the
way of your internal peace. Interesting, that is so much
less cool than being mother Teresa, but whatever. Yeah, absolutely,
(07:15):
it is for your own sanity so that you don't
have to feel the paint through them. Basically, yeah, I
totally understand that. You talk about codependency. You talk about
high functioning codependency in your book, and I was wondering
if you could elaborate on that and what that is,
what the signs are so we can all sit here
like I'm doing and not our head. Yes that is us,
because I feel like we all have a level of
(07:37):
this to some degree, yes, especially being raised as women,
because we really are the bridgers, the assuagers, the soothers
of the world, so we're sort of the producers, like
keeping it going, you know. So first of all, the
backstory on why high functioning codependency as opposed to just
regular old codependency is that my clients didn't identify I
(08:00):
would see codependent behavior, I would mention it, and they
would go no, no, No, you're confused. I'm not dependent
on squad like everyone is dependent on me. I'm doing everything,
I'm making all the dough. No, you're wrong, I'm not
that I'm not involved with an addict. Right. There was
this old school idea from Codependent No More that came
(08:21):
out in the early eighties. Maybe so I got it
because I had a different sort of relationship to codependency too.
I found that my clients were highly capable, extremely smart
women who were basically running the world, and yet they
were doing it at the expense of themselves. So I
(08:42):
added high functioning to codependency. Right. Yes, I'm raising my hands.
I'm glad you're explaining this because when I turned thirty,
I had hit kind of rock bottom for myself and
went into to treatment, and I basically went in for
a codependency. I mean codependency and anxiety, depression and all
things come along with it. But until your book, I
(09:03):
was like, I'm not cod upend, what are you talking about?
And then you talking about high functional codependent. I'm like,
oh shit, I didn't really completely detached from that need
or that ameshment. I guess in a way, yes, and
that behavioral interaction. So for those of you who don't
know what codependency is, according to Terry Coal, it is
being overly invested in the feeling states, the decisions, the outcomes,
(09:25):
and the circumstances of the people in your life. But
it's to the detriment of your internal peace, or your
physical or financial well being or spiritual well being. Because
as lovers, mothers, bonus moms, all the things that we are,
of course, we're invested in the happiness of the people
(09:46):
we love. But when you're codependent, you feel responsible. So
if you're listening to this and you're like, I don't know,
am I, I'm going to ask you right now to
check your urgency. When you're best friend gets in touch
with you and says, oh my God, I have this
terrible situation, this thing happened. I don't know what to do.
(10:07):
If that feels like you immediately jump into action, and
it literally feels like your friends problem is yours to fix.
You feel that weight and that urgency that is codependency now,
because I feel the way in the urgency of the
whole world, because I feel like I'm super empathetic and
(10:27):
it's just me as an artist, I have that kind
of connection with life. How do you really differentiate between, Oh,
I'm an empathetic person and then I'm also codependent because
those can feel like very similar things. Well they can,
but not really because here's the thing yet, yes, on
the feeling thing, right, because in both situations there's a
(10:47):
feeling element, But when you're codependent, you're not just feeling
like compassion or empathy for your friends situation. You feel
responsible to fix it, and that is totally different. It's
one thing to say to your friend, Hey, I'm here
for you. How can I best support you? Right now?
(11:10):
Are we brainstorming? What what do you need? How can
I best support you? Knowing that just like in my
sister's situation, it was not mine to fix, right my
therapist has said to me in that scenario, what makes
you think you know what lessons your sister needs to
learn in this life? Right? And I was like, I
(11:31):
don't know. I think can we all agree cannot be
in the woods with no running water with some crackhead's abusive?
Like can we agree? You would think, But she was
like I don't know, Terry, like I can't say that.
That's not how she has to learn. And when I
stepped back from that relationship, not you know and said, hey,
if you ever really want to get out, I'm here.
(11:51):
I love you, but I can't have you talking about
abuse all day long. Nine months later she got in touch,
She's like, I'm ready to go, moved around to went
back to school osber and did it on her own terms.
And I was happy to be a part of the solution,
but it wasn't my solution. It was her solution for
her life. And I actually talked quite a bit in
(12:12):
the book than to what you're talking about with highly
sensitive people and empaths, because it does impact how we
interact in our relationships. If you identify as someone who
is an EmPATH, we don't just feel sympathy for others
(12:33):
we feel what's going on like it is going on
for us, but the healthy part of our minds has
to know it's not, and that we can be supportive
and stay lovingly connected to others without thinking that we
know better than they do. My pattern, my whole life
has been I need to fix your emotional state so
(12:54):
that I can feel safe. I've worked through a lot
of this, and like I said, many many years, and
now I'm coming to a new level of understanding and
working through some things. But Eddie, my husband was in
a bad mood about something, and I allowed myself and
I had a real experience and embodied experience of not
having to go into his bad mood to fix it.
(13:16):
I was like, I'll just let him. He's gonna do
his own thing whatever. I'm going to have a good day.
It doesn't have I don't have to match his mood.
And I felt strange. Number one and number two, I
felt good. I was like, oh, because me matching his
emotional state doesn't help either of us. It just and
then he's out of it, and then I'm still in it.
(13:38):
And then I feel resentment because all of a sudden,
now I feel like I'm carrying it. For him and
then he just he dejects from it, he feels better,
and now I'm carrying it. And so that's basically been
like the dance of my whole life and the way
that I feel like I've been codependent because I feel
like I'm somehow emotionally saving people and then carrying the
(13:59):
weight of it, which is a shitty way to live
once you especially once you have an embodied experience out
of it, You're like, WHOA that that's a heavy heavy
weight to carry it is. It's also not great for
relationships because it really builds because you know, I'm obviously
a recovering codependent, and it is a discipline. M I
(14:22):
feel like it's a lot like stopping drinking right where
it isn't just like oh good, I'm glad that's over right.
You still have to mindfully because my nature would still
be to fix the bad mood, to take on the
bad mood too. I'm more about trying to change the
bad mood right like where I'm like, what do you
(14:42):
have to be sad about? We have everything? You should
be grateful, you know, judging I'm I'm more mean about
it when I fall into it, but I really work
not to end, to be able to acknowledge, or I'll
say to my husband if he's in a bad mood,
and of course, fifteen years ago, that would then be
my mood, or I'd be fixing. I'm able to say, hey,
(15:05):
how can I best support you? Seem like you're bummed.
He'll used to say something sarcastic, because he's an artist.
He'd be like, if you could learn to draw. I'm like, okay,
well I was being sincere and you're an asshole, so like,
just no, exactly, let me take that over here and
see you later. Totally, So he doesn't do that anymore.
(15:29):
But you know, he'll say, no, it's I'm just in
a mood. I'll be like, okay, but like you in
being able to walk away and being like I am
one person. My husband is a separate human being. It doesn't.
It is such a childhood thing to feel responsible for
the whole room, like I'll throw myself under the bus
(15:52):
to make it better for others, or to avoid conflict
or to not rock the boat, or to make sure
everyone else is happy. But of course you see, and
all of us get to our peak moment and and
it looks different for me. I was diagnosed with cancer
in my early thirties where and I have no doubt
that there was some connection to my level of over functioning, overgiving, overdoing,
(16:16):
feeling overly responsible for all of the humans on planet
Earth right that I wouldn't stop, And so the universe
was like, well, tapping her around the shoulder hasn't worked,
so maybe throwing her down a flight of stairs will,
which it did, thank God. Yes, all right, on that note,
(16:37):
we are going to take a quick break, but we'll
be right back. Welcome back, Loves. I am talking with
Terry Cole about the fun wake up calls that we
get from the universe. I had that experience the other
(16:57):
day of being on stage. I did my first show
out um in sixteen seventeen months. I haven't had time
off like that and not entertaining people for my whole
life basically, And I was so triggered walking back into this.
I didn't realize how much my nervous system had actually
like calm down until I walked back into it, and
(17:18):
I was like, oh, all the unhealthy things about this
and and it was And it's interesting because I've had
to cater to thousands and thousands of people in front
of me and what what I think they're wanting? Like
that was kind of the way that I was That's
what I was taught to do, and it doesn't feel
good anymore. Now It's like what do I have to give?
(17:40):
What am I wanting? And then how can they be
a part of that? And this is where it really
hit me the other day, being on stage and being
in front of people in the way that I can't
cater like that anymore. And something that instantly came up
for me is I'm done entertaining. I want to connect.
And I see that as a through line through about
(18:00):
my life, especially with my with my husband, with my friendships.
It's like, I'm sick of entertaining. I want to connect
wherever both of us are as separate, whole human beings,
Let's connect from there, because otherwise otherwise I do. I
feel like I'm entertaining people constantly. But you know, Len,
this is like a perfect time and the trajectory of
(18:21):
your evolution to bring boundaries in in a real way,
because that's what you're talking about, Like I am making
a different relationship with my audience is basically what you're saying.
I want the connection and not the separation that entertainment
can be right, like, you're over there and I'm over
here making the connection. Not to mention, let's just establish
(18:44):
quickly for those people who are listening and are like,
I don't even know what freedom boundaries are because to
do that, but we got into a conversation that just
took the road all the way down. Yes, please do
just keep going. Okay. So, according to me in the
way that I teach it in the book, is boundaries
are you knowing your preferences, your desires, your limits, and
(19:06):
your deal breakers and having the ability to communicate those
when you so choose, right, you don't have to, you
want to. So those are the things, your preferences, your desires,
your limits, and your deal breakers. They're the things that
actually make you uniquely you and mine make me uniquely me.
(19:29):
And so one of the biggest problems I saw when I,
you know, I was in entertainment, you know, as an
agent that became a psychotherapist. When I got into the
psychotherapy world, besides my own boundary struggles and evolution, I
saw that this lack of boundaries, even knowing what they are,
lack of talking true as I call it was a
frigging epidemic every person who came into my office, no
(19:52):
matter why they were walking through the door. When I
really followed the dots back to the pain point, it
was there in a pity, you know, to say no
when they wanted to say no, or to share their
preference about something with someone. Like we were trained to
believe that being easy is preferable. Right, you don't have
(20:14):
a preference just you know me? I mean, think about
all the phrases that people say, right, you know me,
I'm easy. It's all good, is it? Though? Like? Why
is having a preference not good? Like I don't get it,
you know. So that's where we're going to start with
boundaries and with talking true, because ultimately, if you don't
(20:36):
share those things preferences, desires, limits, deal breakers with the
people in your life, we're giving the people who we
love the most corrupted intel or data about who we are.
So how can anyone authentically love us when we're so
busy keeping ourselves in a box or trying to be
pleasing to everyone else, or do we even know who
(21:00):
we are? And I think so many women end up
in my office being like I'm fifty and I have
no idea who I am because I love done his
checkboxes my whole life. That's been an interesting ride for
me and I as I was reading your book, I
have yet to make my list of those. And you
know what, I've found so much resistance when I've gone
(21:21):
to do this in my life, to make my list
of desires and needs, and I feel like I'm going
to be taking up too much space when i create
these lists, and then I think are these really mine?
Or am I trying to still please someone within this list?
And then you start to be so a meshed with
(21:42):
the whole world basically that you don't know what's truly
yours and what's not. But I do think like just
my simple thing I want to entertain and I want
to connect like that all of a sudden felt like
a real truth. I feel like there's body wisdom in this,
and like when it feels like you connect so deeply
where it feels like for me it runs through my
whole body. I know, like that's me yep, But imagine
(22:04):
feeling that way all the time because we love that. Yes. Well, well,
the more you do this, though, the more you see
that as we honor our boundaries right. Because this is
all about our relationship with ourselves. And even though we
are raised to look outside of ourselves all the time
to make sure everyone else is okay, the truth in
(22:27):
life is that our relationship with ourselves right, that sets
the bar for every other relationship that we have. So
if we have a low opinion of ourselves, if we
work ourselves to death, if we're always last on our
own list, so to speak, inevitably we attract people who
are takers because we are givers, and then eventually we
(22:50):
are resentful. So when you have a better relationship to yourself,
take better care of yourself. I don't mean you personally,
I just mean in general. We are letting people know,
oh hey, this is an appropriate way drawing boundaries is
letting people know this is okay with me, this is
not okay with me, right, And it's the most loving
(23:12):
thing that you can do, because then the people in
your life actually know who you are. They're not guessing
it always, And then we're we end up presenting those
people for getting it wrong and then for allowing really
this relationship where their needs are being taken care of
(23:34):
only and ours are ours are not, And it's painful recently,
I've I've had a much better relationship with self. And
one of the things that has come up for me
so deeply is the amount of resentment that I have
for the entire world. It's like and and to admit
(23:55):
that what has been it's literally been over the past week.
I'm like, I was in everything and everyone and having
to do everything and this I mean, And my my
therapist was like, yeah, I'm like, I'm glad you're angry,
Like this is what I was trying to get to,
Like we're getting somewhere, and I'm like, it doesn't feel
like it's horrible, but it's true. When you can see
(24:16):
that your needs have been you've been putting yourself last.
You know, I can see now why I resent everything.
But that next step, though, like I totally feel that,
I totally feel that in this is a phase of healing,
and I think that there's a really important phase coming
up where we start mourning. Yeah, the way we wished
(24:41):
it was we start we need to like honor that
that things didn't turn out the way exactly as we've planned,
or that we spent a lot of time. When I
realized this about boundaries, I was like, oh, my God,
like wasted the last fifteen years of my life, like
dancing so fast, walking on eggshells, being exhausted, being resentful.
(25:02):
I wish I had known this younger quote unquote, you know,
but I needed to write about that journal, about that
honor my sadness that I didn't have those skills sooner,
so to speak. So with any transformation, in any change,
it's important that we mourn. Sort of like you said,
I'm resentful, but but again, most of the time under
(25:25):
resentment is something else, right, there is resentment is an
easier emotion, but probably it's really a secondary and probably
sadness the primary emotion, you know what I mean? Yeah,
for sure, I definitely know there's tons of sadness there
that I've come up against around not having my needs
(25:45):
met um by many different my parents, by by world. Recently,
I just celebrated my year of my very first album,
and to have to look back upon that was the
has been really the first time I've ever looked back
and truly appreciated my younger self and really had a
(26:08):
very clear understanding of what I went through and not
no longer in denial of of the challenges and the
trauma that I've experienced over the last twenty five years,
and it's been intense, but it's been it has been
really liberating. And there has been a lot of grief
that is coming up as I look back, and I
(26:31):
think that that grief, like you're saying, is such an
important part. So I feel like I'm not I'm no
longer living in the fantasy of thinking that it can
still be better, Like I can make that part of
my life better. Right, there's a great and Lemo quote
where she said, um forgiveness quote unquote is basically giving
(26:52):
up hope for a better past. You know what I mean.
I mean that that's I just butchered it. That's not
exactly what it says, but the way she says it
is quite brilliant, where it's like there's there's something profoundly
um liberating can be in the acceptance of what was true, right,
what actually happened, you know, And I think that many
(27:15):
of us, you know, there's so much of the work
that I do with boundaries and psychological health and mental
wellness where I talk about going into the basement of
your mind. So right, this is the your unconscious mind
where we repress a lot of things. But there's information
that's down there, and we're not just bringing up like
painful crap for no reason. We're bringing up these things
(27:37):
because if we don't honor them, they then inform our
current life. We can't control the psychotherapeutic way the brain works,
but we can honor what happened by writing about it,
by honoring the kid that you were right, Like I
think about different whether it's aged seven, thirteen, seventeen twenty one,
(27:58):
all every age, all of us have injuries that happen
in life, and when you're taught to like deny them,
Like in my family that nobody was ever allowed to
be mad. You know, it was like as long as
everything was positive, you could talk about it. So I
really learned to be like, if it's bad, just deny it,
(28:18):
repress it, you know, sweep it under the rug. But
of course that only works for so long, you know. Yeah, absolutely, Well,
it's interesting when I think of boundaries, it's just been
a bit intimidating my whole life because I think of boundaries,
the only thing I really think of is like a
wall between me and the world or a wall between
me and other I feel like that's probably pretty common.
(28:38):
How do we begin to have these boundaries that are
more pliable, because that really is what we're looking for, right,
Like more a way to not only like push everything out,
but allow the good stuff to also penetrate. Right, you
want healthy boundaries, right, So boundaries come in different forms, right,
they come in so poorest boundaries or too malleable, rigid
(29:00):
boundaries are too firm as you're describing. And I think
that the myth that people have is that rigid boundaries
are what healthy boundaries are, which is not true. So
people think that it's like saying no and rejecting and
confrontation and being mean and being stingy and being greedy
and being selfish. I mean, I could keep going because
I've heard so many from people like I'm afraid of this.
(29:22):
I don't want them to think that when it comes
to boundaries, and I'm like, listen, all we're talking about
is starting with knowing who you are and starting to
understand what your preferences, your desires, your limits, and your
deal breakers are in life, knowing that you have a
(29:43):
right to those things. And the reason I put them
in categories is because your preference is not the same
as a deal breaker. They are all different levels of
boundaries and different levels of importance. Right a preference. Maybe
I want to go to bed early and my husband
wants to go to bed late. That's a preference. Maybe
we can meet in the middle, maybe we can't, but
I'm not going to get divorced over it. You know
(30:05):
someone who's in recovery but then relapses, that might be
more of a deal breaker. So part of it is
understanding that there's no like across the board. This is
healthy boundaries. Each situation is individual, and I think the
easiest place to start is to just stop the auto yes,
(30:27):
because a lot of us are people pleasers. A lot
of us don't even feel like we have the right
to take time to think about it. If someone asked something,
you're like, right, yep, okay, good, I'm there, And that
is sabotaging your ability to have a good boundary or
to be honest. So that's the first step that I
(30:48):
have people do, which is to just buy time for
the next three to five days. No matter what anyone
asks you to do, you cannot give an immediate response.
Because we've also trained people in our life, We've trained
them to expect us to get back to them immediately.
We we don't even feel like we can take a day,
many of us. And it depends on what your boundary
(31:08):
dysfunction is. Right, Some people are loners. Right did you
take I don't think you did. I meant to send
you my boundary quiz. It's just called boundary dot com.
So if anyone wants to take it, it's boundary quiz
dot com. And this will give you the arc type
that your most and it's only thirteen questions. It's super
(31:29):
quick to do. But you know it. You know what
the answers are when you're like, oh yeah, totally me,
totally me. Because when you get the arch type, you
can either be like, let's say, the chameleon, push over
the peacekeeper, or like the ice queen or the loner.
I feel like, depending on the situation, I could be
one of all of those. You know, It's true, were
(31:53):
usually more than one, right, right, but we almost always
have one predominant because a chameleon, which is someone who
kind of just goes along to get along with like
what other people are doing, is a bit different than
a peacekeeper who is actively putting out fires that are
not they didn't start and are not theirs, but they
want to make sure so you'll see there there is
(32:16):
a distinction, and I think that understanding that is a
really helpful place to start. But if you're someone who
feels like you have the disease to please other people,
or that you know you have this people pleasing syndrome,
and if you feel like you're codependent, meaning you know,
think about what is codependency. It's an overt or covert
(32:38):
bid to control the outcomes of other people. Right. We
don't want our friend to get into that terrible relationship,
or we don't want our partner to make that big
mistake we think they're going to make. And yet, when
you're not codependent and you have healthy boundaries, you know
that those things are the people you love. That there's
to decide. It doesn't mean you can't brainstorm with or
(33:00):
talk about it with them. But we're not auto advice
giving all the time, constantly making suggestions and doing more
than we need to, because all of that stuff is codependency.
So I say, let's just start by stopping the auto
yes buying time, which can be super easy. You just say,
oh my god, thank you so much for thinking of me.
(33:21):
Can I let you know by Friday. Yeah. And if
they go, no, I need to know sooner. You're like, well,
if you need to know now, what to know because
I don't make instant decisions. And but if you can
wait till Thursday, that's like, you know, we can negotiate
for what it is we want to do. That sounds
like me deciding on whether or not I want to
do a show, like I'll I'll get an offer, and
they're like, they need to know today. I'm like, well,
I guess it's a now totally because you're like, so,
(33:45):
you know what better I have to say. I've gotten
I've gotten much better with my boundaries. But I mean,
I think your book really did point out so many places,
which is great. I mean that's I'm open to seeing
all the places in which I've I've yet to grow
in these areas, and I think this is probably the
last place for me because I feel so I've learned
so well how to be a people. Please are like,
(34:07):
I've gotten it down. I've gotten it down on such
a large scale. Being down with this downtime during COVID,
like it's actually given me a lot of us a
reset point. And I'm feeling like I don't have to
jump back into like all of these yeses, and it's there.
There is an internal like spaciousness that comes along with
(34:28):
that that feels so good. As I'm thinking about because
I really am going to go take that quiz that
I'm I'm gonna do my list of preferences and desires
and deal breakers. But how do you determine what the
differences between a preference and a desire. A preference is
something that is not that serious. I prefer coffee over tea. God,
(34:48):
I prefer a shower over time. I have a preference.
You know, you go out to your deciding to go
out to dinner. You know, I think I feel like
having this eat. That's a preference. That's how your partners like,
oh no, please, I'm to have such a hanker for
this other kind of food. You could be like, okay,
we'll have that other kind of food maybe, you know.
So preference is less serious. I find it with desires,
(35:10):
they're they're bigger things. You may have a desire to
live somewhere else. You may have a desire to change careers.
You may have a desire to sort of renegotiate what's
going on within your marriage or your friendships. So desires
are a little bit more important, I think. And then
we move into the limits, which are the things you're like, no,
(35:32):
I do not this is this is a limit for me.
I don't want to do that. But then a deal
breaker is something that is a total non negotia, right, absolutely,
all right, we are going to take a quick breather,
but we'll be right back with more wisdom from Terry Cole.
Welcome back, loves. We are discussing how boundaries can actually
(35:55):
make or break healthy relationships. As we begin to set
these boundaries is and we began to train the other
is in our life to treat us in a different way. Obviously,
that change and that shift is going to cause a
lot of ripples. What do you find people come up
against the most one are the most the biggest challenges
(36:16):
in their relationships. And as we start to shift these dynamics,
what are some of the ways in which we can
possibly make these shifts a little bit smoother. Yes, Well,
here's the thing. Yes, when you're changing the dance, right,
every relationship is like a dance, So your partner is
going to notice that you're changing something. Usually so The
(36:37):
first thing is to be prepared that people are going
to notice and that they will feel threatened by you changing.
So that's okay. Like, if you're a people pleaser, you've
got to get that it's okay for someone to not
like what you're doing in this moment. For someone to
not like that you've decided you're no longer going to
be doing the grown kids laundry at home or whatever
(37:00):
the thing is, people will be up in arms like,
oh my god, what do you mean you always did
it this way? Okay, well I'm changing that. What I
see the most is once we realize we need to
change something, there is such a desire to make a
big announcement about it, to like get a megaphone and
be like, bitches, everything is going to change. I feel
(37:23):
like that right there with you in my life right now,
so please help me out with this. So we don't
want to do that, Like the megaphone telling everyone there's
a new boundary share in town is not that helpful
because that is the codependent part that feels anxious, and
we just want to discharge some of that anxiety by
(37:43):
being like, I want to let you know it's all changing.
What really works, though, is to change things slowly, one
next right action at a time. So we start with
our preferences. If you're someone who wouldn't normally share your preferences,
we do it. If here's someone who always shares your preferences,
(38:06):
because your boundaries are more rigid and you're bossing the
hell out of everyone and everything has got to be
your way. Instead of asserting your preferences more, I'm going
to ask you to step back a little bit because
that is a fear driven response as well. Never sharing
them and over sharing them two sides of the same coin.
(38:26):
The coin is disordered boundaries. But we're doing it one
situation at a time. You can show the people in
your life that you can stay lovingly connected to them
and still stand in your strength and your boundary. So
I would say to someone, whether it was my mother
(38:47):
who was upset about something or whoever, I see that
you're upset that I'm no longer going to host Christmas
in my whatever whatever the thing is, And I love
you and I'm sad that you're upset, and yet this
is what I need to do for myself. So Vic
and I are going away during Christmas. So I am
glad that you know. I expect you to respect the boundary,
(39:09):
but I also understand so we can celebrate the week before,
let's celebrate the week after whatever, so I don't have
to be mad. Part of it is we cannot be
so thin skinned and reactionary that the moment we get
pushed back back in the day when you were a
total code of bender, or when I was, I could
immediately be that chameleon that moved into changing my message
(39:33):
to make sure that they were not upset about what
I was doing. Right Like, the moment I got pushed back,
I'd be like, no, no, you misunderstood me. I would
like to be like what I said was what I
meant was. So we're not doing that because we can't
be that thin skinned. It's going to take time to
change these dances. So here's the thing. It's okay to
(39:55):
be uncomfortable when you start to draw new boundaries, when
you start to speak up or talk true, I like
to say in a different way, there's a part of
you that's gonna want to take that boundary back so bad,
Like you're gonna so much want to call them back
and be like forget it. It's fun. I can work
on New Years whatever or whatever. The thing is right,
We're not doing that. So I have a rule in
(40:16):
the book. We have a forty eight hour rule where
you're gonna be okay, You're just gonna up your self
care even though you feel guilty, you feel bad, do
you think you're a rotten human being? All of that
is an amplified response to changing. It is the child
within you that is totally afraid they're going to be
in trouble. You're not in trouble, and I promise you,
(40:39):
after forty eight hours, you do will not want to
take that boundary back. Absolutely. I just had this whole
experience with my mother and setting a boundary with her,
and I had such grief after it. I cried for
like twenty four hours, and I was like, I'm there
was a piece at me that was like, I'm the
most awful person. This is my mother. How could I
(40:59):
do us to her? How could I hurt her? And then,
like you're saying about forty hours later, I was like, Okay,
I just went through that whole process and I feel
really good and now I feel like I'm standing on
my own two feet a little more as an adult woman.
It really does take. Forty eight hours is a great tool.
It is a great tool. It gives some space. And
like you're saying, if after forty eight hours we feel
(41:21):
the need to go back on that, I think then
there's something that we should be reevaluating that in our
boundary in the first place. So yeah, for hours. I
gotta tell you. At a time, women in my courses,
people who get in touch with me who have been
reading the book, they're like, it's amazing, And what kind
(41:42):
of blows people's minds, Like I'm thinking, like, what is
the feedback that I get the most when people start
this process is how readily others except their boundaries. We
always start with lower priority people because it would be
hard to start with the mother's right because they're that's hard,
or even the partners, that's hard because these are primary
(42:05):
v I P s in our life. So we start
with lower priority people, like whoever, whoever it is, whether
it's your colorist or your mail carrier or whoever. If
you have a preferencey video of something you'd like to say,
if your lunch comes and it's not what you're breaking,
order to send it back, do the things out in
the world that you wouldn't normally be doing, because that
(42:26):
starts to set you up to be like okay, And
the feedback is that people are surprisingly cool right with
the boundaries that, of course the person setting them was
positive that there was going to be a big brawl,
the world was going to stop spinning on its access,
they were going to spontaneously light into flames, and that
did not happen. So that's amazing, And then you get
(42:47):
more confident. Like you said, forty eight hours later, you
felt better. We can still say it bums me out.
I wish, I wish my mom didn't feel that way,
and yet this is still the right thing for me
to do for me and that has to be our
(43:08):
top priority. And we've been so trained to think that
that's being selfish, and the reality is you do. Really,
if we want something valuable to give to the people
in our life who we love, we can't give it
from an empty bucket. We can't give it by checking
boxes and being bitter, because that's what that is. The
(43:31):
end result of disordered boundaries is being angry with other people.
Instead of focusing on our inability to say no, we
focus on Betty's entitlement or Bob's behavior. When you know
that you can say no, that you're not doing what
doesn't work for you in your life, and that you
can do this lovingly and with kindness and with ease
(43:54):
and with grace. I mean eventually, like in the beginning
it might be messy, but you'll get there, you know
what I mean. Yeah, absolutely, it's basically the projection. Instead
of dealing with, like you're saying, your inability to say
no and how uncomfortable it is for you, you project
that anger and frustration out onto the rest of the world. Yes,
I understand that very well. That is correct. Yeah, it's
(44:17):
this is I love this conversation because I feel like
there's such power and strengthen it. It's interesting even you
were saying how we've learned that selfishness is bad. I
look at your even the title of your book boundary Boss.
I was giggling to myself this morning because I was
thinking in the past, for me, that would have been
like boundary bitch, Like you know what I mean, Like,
(44:37):
that's what the what I think of when I say,
when you put boundaries and boss into one, you know,
one little couple there, it's I think of, Oh, she's
a bit like that's how we've been trained, and it's
so beautiful to be able to and I think such
a gift to the self, and also like you're saying
to everyone around you, to be able to come into
(44:59):
a play where you can lovingly give direction and the
way to love me. Yes, it's really what it is.
It's that something it is. And why do we make
the people in our life guests because they always freaking
get it wrong, and not because they're idiots, because they're
not us right right, and they're not mind readers. No,
(45:23):
So it's so much even if you just when I
used to counsel couples, which I absolutely hated, but when
I did do it, just improve I could to myself.
It was so stressful to me personally anyway. I would
say to the husbands and this is like heteronormative, that's
who the who the clientele was. So the husbands would
complain they they wanted, you know, more sex. The women
(45:44):
would complain they wanted more help and they didn't want
their husbands fixing them, and they just were like, can
this person ever just listen to me without like making
a suggestion I'm not going to take. So it really
boiled it down to teaching the husbands to say, hey, babe,
how can I best support you? Would be great. How
about just asking her? And then I would say to
(46:06):
the wives, and then it's your job to share, how
is that person best supporting you? Make me a cup
of tea, sit down and talk to me. Wonderful around Like,
I don't know. There's lots of ways that you could
write and support the person. And I said to the husbands,
you know, you think that you want more physical intimacy,
But I'm telling you, if you looked at the act
(46:27):
of thinking about your wife when you're not with her
doing the things that you know she wants you to
do around the house without her asking you eleven times,
think of that as for a play, because that's how
it's going to impact her. The more she has to
harangue you, the less thought about she feels by you
during the day, not when you're looking to get laid,
(46:50):
like when you're actually just you know, out in your life.
That's that, Oh my god, so simple, that's so true.
Like Okay, I think I can do that. Just take
out the damn garbage without her asking, and she might
want to do you would be all right love, and
(47:11):
on that inspiring note, We're going to pause very quick break,
but we'll be right back. Hello friends. Terry was just
breaking down how different reactions and our day to day
lives can set us on the path clearer boundaries. I
(47:32):
want to shift just a little bit to what you
call boundary destroyers. When I got to this piece of
the book, I was like, WHOA, I have a few
of these in my life and a few of them
that aren't going anywhere, and so can you describe what
a boundary destroyer is? First off, sure, I did a
whole chapter on this because it is very common. So
(47:55):
these are people who are emotional predators. There are ootional manipulators.
It could be intentional, it could be unintentional. It could
be these cluster b personality disorders like narcissistic personality disorder,
by polar histrionic, oppositional. There's a whole bunch that go
into one sort of group. So what I wanted the
(48:16):
reader to understand is that everything that I teach you
up unto that point does not apply two boundary destroyers,
because the rules don't apply to boundary destroyers because they
are incapable. These personalities that I'm talking about incapable of
(48:38):
really taking in another person. They don't have that. You know,
if you think about narcissistic personality disorder, we talk about
there's an in um, their incapable of having real empathy
for others. It's like scary, sad, but it's true. So
but allowed of people with these personality disorders and with
these these challenges can really seem like they can pretend
(49:02):
like they can do this, and yet everything is a
manipulation to their end, whatever it is that they want.
And so it's very important to how I break down
the chapter is sharing with the reader what are the
sort of the biggest tools that boundary destroyers used to
destroy our boundaries. So you have gas lighting, right, which
(49:25):
you know has become kind of popularized, where it's somebody
basically denying your reality, trying to really trying to make
you doubt your own sanity. There is love bombing, where
it's like just pouring on the compliments. And you know,
anyone who's been in a relationship with a narcissist knows
(49:45):
what this is. It's too good to be true because
you're the most amazing thing and sex is unbelievable, and
they want to fly to Paris for dinner, and they
can't wait to take you to a wedding, Like and
they asked you to go to wedding and it's not
for like two years. You're like, oh my god, we're
totally getting like druss me if it seems too good
to be true. With love bombing, it's there's also an
(50:06):
accelerated timeline, like you met in like in three weeks,
they're like, we're moving in together. You're like, oh my god, Okay,
well this is moving kind of fast. And someone was like,
but how do I know if that person I met
and it happened really fast, how do I know that
that was, you know, love bombing? I was like, Hi,
if it's five years later and the person is still
(50:27):
good to you and you're still things are amazing, it
wasn't love bombing. It was just a relationship that moved fast.
Love bombing and this cycle of abuse, it goes from
you're the most amazing thing to some kind of situation
where now you fall out of favor with the narcissist.
Then they discard you. There they're rejecting you. You're you're
working over time to get back in their good graces,
(50:49):
and then the cycle happens all over again. It can
happen weekly, it can happen every four years, but it's painful.
The whole thing is painful. So you want to be
aware of psychologically, what are the tricks acting that they're
concerned about you, right, So if you say something that
they don't like, you're pointing out their crappy behavior and something.
They'll be like, but I'm really worried about you. You're
(51:12):
you're really off the rails right now. I don't know,
are you okay? Oh yes, oh am I okay, yeah.
You just don't want me to talk about the thing
I'm talking about. So now you're gonna put me on
the defensive. But here's the thing. If you read this
chapter and you get really well versed in these tricks
of the trade from these master manipulators, you will not fall.
(51:36):
You won't be such a victim to them in your
life because this isn't just about romantic relationships. This is friendships,
this is work relationships, this is people on your team,
this is you know what I mean? Because the cracked
pot finds the correct lid, which is why we want
to heal these childhood wounds. Whatever they may be, so
that because a lot of times we're not only acting
(51:58):
these things out or playing them out in our romantic lives.
Obviously we have relationships with lots of people where this
can be acted out. But there's lots of things that
you can do to not allow these types of personalities
to manipulate you. Stepping back, yes, drawing boundaries, but we
(52:20):
do it differently with boundary destroyers. It's more about removing
their access to our most tender heart, which is challenging.
It can be very, very challenging. And I've noticed that
I know all of these things. But then when I'm like, oh,
I'll open the door and things, will you think that
(52:40):
people have changed because they their covert ways of making
you think that they have changed is they're so good
at it. I've stepped back before from some people and
been like yours, that's amazing, Like I'm i am you
should win an Oscar for that performance. Like there's something
in me that's still going back and opening that door
(53:01):
and opening that boundary just enough to be hurt again.
And this chapter was so eye opening because I see
so much of this, but I've never had words for it.
So for you to be able to put it into
words and to really like be able to see exactly
what's going on was so so helpful. I highly recommend
people get your book because I it's really been super
(53:23):
super helpful. I love all of the bonus information that
you have for people on this book. For people to
really get clear and in touch with themselves, I think
is so important, Like this is foundational for us to
live happy, healthy lives. Yes, it is and self determined.
So thank you so much for your kind words, and
(53:43):
I'm hoping that this is I just want to reach
as many people as possible who are suffering in a
way that they could learn these skills and you your
joy will be exponentially higher and your suffering will be
exponentially lower. You know, Yeah, what if there was one
take way that you want people to walk away with
from this at the beginning of their boundary boss journey.
(54:05):
What's the beginning? I know they can go take your
boundary quiz, but is there anything else that where people
should begin. Well, here's the thing. The way that begin
with the book. Go to Boundary boss book dot com.
Begin with the book because I literally start at the
very beginning and I walk you through every single step
of the way. I also have a course where I actually,
(54:28):
in real life walk people through and that starts and
I think it's starting in the third week in September
this year, where it's live right, so people can get
their actual questions answered. And there's a whole group element
that's amazing. But part of it is no that you
can do this. You got this, and I got you
(54:48):
like I know you, I was you. There's nothing to
be ashamed of. You shouldn't know this already. Think about
it like learning a foreign language. You don't feel guilty
or bad or ashamed of yourself if you weren't just
suddenly fluent in another language. That's being fluent in boundaries.
It is a language. And I give you a whole
(55:09):
chapter on just scripts, which is right. I'm so going
to be using them, by the way, Yes, please please
do I love it. But you can do it, is
all I'm saying. You can do it, yes, And thank
you for mentioning that shame piece, because I know there's
so much shame around this for so many of us.
So I'd love that if you you wouldn't be ashamed
(55:30):
learning foreign language. So that's what we're doing. Just simple, correct,
let's do it together. Yes, I always ask my guests
that I have one about five songs in their life.
I call him the Holy five that you're either into
right now or that you've just loved your entire life,
and why so bring it out? All right? Here we go.
First of all, I wrote ten, but I'm always going
(55:51):
to tell you five because I was like, I can't.
And when I realized, can I just say what happened
for me? When I did this yesterday? I was like,
hi year old, Like literally, I went into my I tunes,
I was like the top most listened to. I was like, Wow,
they've been the same for like twenty years. That just
made you love them so much? I do, all right,
(56:12):
So Marvin Gaye and Tammy Terrell, you're all I need
to get by. Oh yeah, Areatha Franklin natural one the
(56:35):
day I'm mad? So you are the key to Lappy
piece of Black, Barbara Streisan or Luther v androws how
(57:00):
it's not a Home. I love that it's There's not
but blue, but I love both those versions. And Barbara's
(57:24):
goes into one less bell to answer, so good. Um, Okay,
Then we have Joan Osborne's cover of Dolly Pardons. Do
I ever cross your mind? What I've never heard that?
That's so cool? And do you live this feelings and
love we shared when you are with me? Do you, Darling?
(57:46):
I just wonder, do I cross your mind? It's a
compilation of all other artists covering Dolly's stuff on the
album is called Just Because I'm a Woman, Uh huh,
and there's so many I also love Code of Many
Colors on there, and Shanayan does an amazing version of
that from but What It's so although we had no
(58:16):
money here, what trenches? That could be my Code of
Many Colors? Mamma, thank you, thank you so fun. I
so appreciate you caring about your mental health and all
the good that you're doing in the world helping people
find mental health wellness. Thank you. I have um. I
really did thoroughly enjoy your book and I'm going to
(58:38):
be diving in more so. Thank you for thank you
for bringing this to the world. I think we all
are in desperate need of it right on. Thanks my love,
have a good day to be continued. Yes, I'll talk
to you soon and that ends this boundary building episode.
I'm holy human. Thank you all so much for spending
your time with me as always, and please post your
(59:01):
thoughts wherever you're listening. I'd love to see if this
land is the view. Also, if you feel this conversation
could benefit a friend, please feel free to share this
with them too. Until next time. On our next Holy Human,
I'll be joined by my friend Kyle Cease. He is
a man who left comedy to bring more happiness and
peace into the world, and I am so glad that
(59:23):
he did because you will not want to miss his
wonderful way of merging laughter and spirituality. Such a fantastic guy,
and I'm so glad that we have met through the podcast.
He's become a friend of mine. So until then, I
wish you all love, take care of each other, love yourself,
love everyone around you, and I'll see you soon. Holy
Human with Me Leanne Rhymes is a production of I
(59:45):
Heart Radio
Holy Human with Leanne Rhymes is a production of I
Heart Radio. Welcome my beautiful friends. Today's episode is one
of my absolute favorites because it is overflowing with great
information about the importance of building and maintaining healthy boundaries,
(00:22):
which I am sure is a topic that we could
all use a good dose of wisdom on and it's
coming from the wise and wonderful Terry Cole, the best
selling author of Boundary Boss and many others, and she's
my guest on today's Holy Human. Yet, actually, how are
(00:57):
my friend Terry Cole? Welcome? Welcome to the Whole Human podcast.
Thank you so so much for joining us. I'm so
pumped to be here. I'm so excited to have you here.
I have to say your book had me in all
the fields, your Boundary Boss book, when I knew that
you were coming on and I was like, Okay, I
have to dig into this book. I have to say
(01:18):
that it was it was a bit intimidating because I
feel like my boundaries have pretty much been non existent
for my whole life. Do you find that this is
a common feeling for people? Do you find that boundaries
are intimidating? Yeah? Completely, And if you're raised as a woman.
I mean, really think about it. Your situation is five
(01:41):
times more complicated because you became highly visible at a
young age. So let's just do this in front of
the whole world, fantastic, where normally we're just having no
boundaries whatsoever within our families or communities, because most of
us were raised and praised. If you were raised as
a woman for being a self abandoning, codependent, like we
(02:03):
got praise for the more self sacrificing, the more giving,
be nice, and this was like the highest virtue humanly possible.
For at least where I grew up, it was all
about being nice. So I just learned to say yes
when I really wanted to say no because I thought
being nice was more important than being honest. Wow, that's
(02:25):
it right there. I mean, we've put so much more
weight on being the nice especially, like you said, the
nice girl, the nice woman, instead of being truthful. And
when you say truth, what comes up for me as
the juxtaposition of being nice as being mean. Truth is mean.
That's kind of what I've equated. There's no way of
(02:46):
telling your truth without the anger and the bitterness and
the resentment and things that come behind that, And this
is a whole new lesson for me that I'm stepping
into in my own life of telling my truth in
a clear way without having to have the push of
all of these heavy emotions behind it, which is so hard, right,
(03:08):
but think about it this way. Part of why we
equate truth with meanness is a you wait too long
when you learn that you should suppress how you feel
if someone else won't like it. So this is like
people pleasing syndrome validation outside of ourselves. Then we wait
a super long time, so by the time you can't
(03:32):
even contain that truth anymore, you will use a sledge hammer,
even when like a pencil eraser would have done the trick.
Because we're so piste. We waited too long, and now
we're a volcano. Because the truth about frustration and not
being seen and not being heard and not being known
is that there's a cumulative effect. So it starts in
(03:55):
childhood and then it just goes from relationship to relationship
where you're like I, I'm checking boxes, making sure everyone
else has what they need. There's no conflict, I'm not
rocking the boat. You need to get to a point
where you're like and I can no longer do that,
you know, and that starts in childhood. I mean that
starts with our parents and the way that we were parented.
I know, I've been doing a lot of digging for myself,
(04:17):
and I know that I was basically confused manipulation with love.
I think a lot of us have God blessed my parents,
but that was the way her mom parented her, and
that's the way that I got parented. And so even
now I'm starting to realize in all the ways that
I manipulate, which is such a hard thing to rub
(04:39):
up against because to be honest about I'm not giving
out of love. I'm giving out of manipulation in order
to get my need met or out of fear. Then
you come up against the question of like, well when
do I give out of love? Like what is love?
What's something else other than manipulation? Because that's the way
we've learned to love, that's the way we learned to
(05:01):
get and receive love. And it's a it's a hard one.
Well it is. It's like facing the shadow self and
being like, Okay, I'm human. I've got the light, and
of course I have the darkness because we all do.
But I remember in my twenties and early third daies
first coming up against like what is my shadow self?
And it's super painful because we have a particular way
(05:23):
of perceiving ourselves ego dysk tonic. It's called where our
idea of ourselves? When I was, you know, codependently attached
to every human being on planet Earth in my life,
giving out of not not love, right, giving out of
wanting to be needed, and with codependency you're giving because
(05:46):
it's fear of rejection. There's all of the things that
are there. I really thought I was like mother Teresa.
Like honestly, I was like, I'm just a lover like that,
you know. I mean, I'm just I'm just all hard
as me until I had to me is in therapist
right who helped me see because I was trying to
(06:06):
manipulate and fix this situation that one of my siblings
was in that was a bad situation and abusive relationship, drugs,
no running water like that bad. Yeah, And I was
crying to my therapist and being like what am I
going to do? I've been I tried this, and I
tried that, Like what am I going to do? You know?
And she was like, hello, Well, since it's not your life,
(06:31):
watch and cry. I don't I don't know, but it's
not on me to do something. But she was like,
do you understand what's happening? And I was like no,
but please enlighten me because I really don't understand. And
she said, you've worked for twenty years in therapy or
fifteen years whatever it was at that point to create
a pretty harmonious in her life and a pretty harmonious
(06:54):
outer life, you know, relationships, whatever. So what's really happening
is that you want to fix your sister's problems because
her dumpster fire of a life is getting in the
way of your internal peace. Interesting, that is so much
less cool than being mother Teresa, but whatever. Yeah, absolutely,
(07:15):
it is for your own sanity so that you don't
have to feel the paint through them. Basically, yeah, I
totally understand that. You talk about codependency. You talk about
high functioning codependency in your book, and I was wondering
if you could elaborate on that and what that is,
what the signs are so we can all sit here
like I'm doing and not our head. Yes that is us,
because I feel like we all have a level of
(07:37):
this to some degree, yes, especially being raised as women,
because we really are the bridgers, the assuagers, the soothers
of the world, so we're sort of the producers, like
keeping it going, you know. So first of all, the
backstory on why high functioning codependency as opposed to just
regular old codependency is that my clients didn't identify I
(08:00):
would see codependent behavior, I would mention it, and they
would go no, no, No, you're confused. I'm not dependent
on squad like everyone is dependent on me. I'm doing everything,
I'm making all the dough. No, you're wrong, I'm not
that I'm not involved with an addict. Right. There was
this old school idea from Codependent No More that came
(08:21):
out in the early eighties. Maybe so I got it
because I had a different sort of relationship to codependency too.
I found that my clients were highly capable, extremely smart
women who were basically running the world, and yet they
were doing it at the expense of themselves. So I
(08:42):
added high functioning to codependency. Right. Yes, I'm raising my hands.
I'm glad you're explaining this because when I turned thirty,
I had hit kind of rock bottom for myself and
went into to treatment, and I basically went in for
a codependency. I mean codependency and anxiety, depression and all
things come along with it. But until your book, I
(09:03):
was like, I'm not cod upend, what are you talking about?
And then you talking about high functional codependent. I'm like,
oh shit, I didn't really completely detached from that need
or that ameshment. I guess in a way, yes, and
that behavioral interaction. So for those of you who don't
know what codependency is, according to Terry Coal, it is
being overly invested in the feeling states, the decisions, the outcomes,
(09:25):
and the circumstances of the people in your life. But
it's to the detriment of your internal peace, or your
physical or financial well being or spiritual well being. Because
as lovers, mothers, bonus moms, all the things that we are,
of course, we're invested in the happiness of the people
(09:46):
we love. But when you're codependent, you feel responsible. So
if you're listening to this and you're like, I don't know,
am I, I'm going to ask you right now to
check your urgency. When you're best friend gets in touch
with you and says, oh my God, I have this
terrible situation, this thing happened. I don't know what to do.
(10:07):
If that feels like you immediately jump into action, and
it literally feels like your friends problem is yours to fix.
You feel that weight and that urgency that is codependency now,
because I feel the way in the urgency of the
whole world, because I feel like I'm super empathetic and
(10:27):
it's just me as an artist, I have that kind
of connection with life. How do you really differentiate between, Oh,
I'm an empathetic person and then I'm also codependent because
those can feel like very similar things. Well they can,
but not really because here's the thing yet, yes, on
the feeling thing, right, because in both situations there's a
(10:47):
feeling element, But when you're codependent, you're not just feeling
like compassion or empathy for your friends situation. You feel
responsible to fix it, and that is totally different. It's
one thing to say to your friend, Hey, I'm here
for you. How can I best support you? Right now?
(11:10):
Are we brainstorming? What what do you need? How can
I best support you? Knowing that just like in my
sister's situation, it was not mine to fix, right my
therapist has said to me in that scenario, what makes
you think you know what lessons your sister needs to
learn in this life? Right? And I was like, I
(11:31):
don't know. I think can we all agree cannot be
in the woods with no running water with some crackhead's abusive?
Like can we agree? You would think, But she was
like I don't know, Terry, like I can't say that.
That's not how she has to learn. And when I
stepped back from that relationship, not you know and said, hey,
if you ever really want to get out, I'm here.
(11:51):
I love you, but I can't have you talking about
abuse all day long. Nine months later she got in touch,
She's like, I'm ready to go, moved around to went
back to school osber and did it on her own terms.
And I was happy to be a part of the solution,
but it wasn't my solution. It was her solution for
her life. And I actually talked quite a bit in
(12:12):
the book than to what you're talking about with highly
sensitive people and empaths, because it does impact how we
interact in our relationships. If you identify as someone who
is an EmPATH, we don't just feel sympathy for others
(12:33):
we feel what's going on like it is going on
for us, but the healthy part of our minds has
to know it's not, and that we can be supportive
and stay lovingly connected to others without thinking that we
know better than they do. My pattern, my whole life
has been I need to fix your emotional state so
(12:54):
that I can feel safe. I've worked through a lot
of this, and like I said, many many years, and
now I'm coming to a new level of understanding and
working through some things. But Eddie, my husband was in
a bad mood about something, and I allowed myself and
I had a real experience and embodied experience of not
having to go into his bad mood to fix it.
(13:16):
I was like, I'll just let him. He's gonna do
his own thing whatever. I'm going to have a good day.
It doesn't have I don't have to match his mood.
And I felt strange. Number one and number two, I
felt good. I was like, oh, because me matching his
emotional state doesn't help either of us. It just and
then he's out of it, and then I'm still in it.
(13:38):
And then I feel resentment because all of a sudden,
now I feel like I'm carrying it. For him and
then he just he dejects from it, he feels better,
and now I'm carrying it. And so that's basically been
like the dance of my whole life and the way
that I feel like I've been codependent because I feel
like I'm somehow emotionally saving people and then carrying the
(13:59):
weight of it, which is a shitty way to live
once you especially once you have an embodied experience out
of it, You're like, WHOA that that's a heavy heavy
weight to carry it is. It's also not great for
relationships because it really builds because you know, I'm obviously
a recovering codependent, and it is a discipline. M I
(14:22):
feel like it's a lot like stopping drinking right where
it isn't just like oh good, I'm glad that's over right.
You still have to mindfully because my nature would still
be to fix the bad mood, to take on the
bad mood too. I'm more about trying to change the
bad mood right like where I'm like, what do you
(14:42):
have to be sad about? We have everything? You should
be grateful, you know, judging I'm I'm more mean about
it when I fall into it, but I really work
not to end, to be able to acknowledge, or I'll
say to my husband if he's in a bad mood,
and of course, fifteen years ago, that would then be
my mood, or I'd be fixing. I'm able to say, hey,
(15:05):
how can I best support you? Seem like you're bummed.
He'll used to say something sarcastic, because he's an artist.
He'd be like, if you could learn to draw. I'm like, okay,
well I was being sincere and you're an asshole, so like,
just no, exactly, let me take that over here and
see you later. Totally, So he doesn't do that anymore.
(15:29):
But you know, he'll say, no, it's I'm just in
a mood. I'll be like, okay, but like you in
being able to walk away and being like I am
one person. My husband is a separate human being. It doesn't.
It is such a childhood thing to feel responsible for
the whole room, like I'll throw myself under the bus
(15:52):
to make it better for others, or to avoid conflict
or to not rock the boat, or to make sure
everyone else is happy. But of course you see, and
all of us get to our peak moment and and
it looks different for me. I was diagnosed with cancer
in my early thirties where and I have no doubt
that there was some connection to my level of over functioning, overgiving, overdoing,
(16:16):
feeling overly responsible for all of the humans on planet
Earth right that I wouldn't stop, And so the universe
was like, well, tapping her around the shoulder hasn't worked,
so maybe throwing her down a flight of stairs will,
which it did, thank God. Yes, all right, on that note,
(16:37):
we are going to take a quick break, but we'll
be right back. Welcome back, Loves. I am talking with
Terry Cole about the fun wake up calls that we
get from the universe. I had that experience the other
(16:57):
day of being on stage. I did my first show
out um in sixteen seventeen months. I haven't had time
off like that and not entertaining people for my whole
life basically, And I was so triggered walking back into this.
I didn't realize how much my nervous system had actually
like calm down until I walked back into it, and
(17:18):
I was like, oh, all the unhealthy things about this
and and it was And it's interesting because I've had
to cater to thousands and thousands of people in front
of me and what what I think they're wanting? Like
that was kind of the way that I was That's
what I was taught to do, and it doesn't feel
good anymore. Now It's like what do I have to give?
(17:40):
What am I wanting? And then how can they be
a part of that? And this is where it really
hit me the other day, being on stage and being
in front of people in the way that I can't
cater like that anymore. And something that instantly came up
for me is I'm done entertaining. I want to connect.
And I see that as a through line through about
(18:00):
my life, especially with my with my husband, with my friendships.
It's like, I'm sick of entertaining. I want to connect
wherever both of us are as separate, whole human beings,
Let's connect from there, because otherwise otherwise I do. I
feel like I'm entertaining people constantly. But you know, Len,
this is like a perfect time and the trajectory of
(18:21):
your evolution to bring boundaries in in a real way,
because that's what you're talking about, Like I am making
a different relationship with my audience is basically what you're saying.
I want the connection and not the separation that entertainment
can be right, like, you're over there and I'm over
here making the connection. Not to mention, let's just establish
(18:44):
quickly for those people who are listening and are like,
I don't even know what freedom boundaries are because to
do that, but we got into a conversation that just
took the road all the way down. Yes, please do
just keep going. Okay. So, according to me in the
way that I teach it in the book, is boundaries
are you knowing your preferences, your desires, your limits, and
(19:06):
your deal breakers and having the ability to communicate those
when you so choose, right, you don't have to, you
want to. So those are the things, your preferences, your desires,
your limits, and your deal breakers. They're the things that
actually make you uniquely you and mine make me uniquely me.
(19:29):
And so one of the biggest problems I saw when I,
you know, I was in entertainment, you know, as an
agent that became a psychotherapist. When I got into the
psychotherapy world, besides my own boundary struggles and evolution, I
saw that this lack of boundaries, even knowing what they are,
lack of talking true as I call it was a
frigging epidemic every person who came into my office, no
(19:52):
matter why they were walking through the door. When I
really followed the dots back to the pain point, it
was there in a pity, you know, to say no
when they wanted to say no, or to share their
preference about something with someone. Like we were trained to
believe that being easy is preferable. Right, you don't have
(20:14):
a preference just you know me? I mean, think about
all the phrases that people say, right, you know me,
I'm easy. It's all good, is it? Though? Like? Why
is having a preference not good? Like I don't get it,
you know. So that's where we're going to start with
boundaries and with talking true, because ultimately, if you don't
(20:36):
share those things preferences, desires, limits, deal breakers with the
people in your life, we're giving the people who we
love the most corrupted intel or data about who we are.
So how can anyone authentically love us when we're so
busy keeping ourselves in a box or trying to be
pleasing to everyone else, or do we even know who
(21:00):
we are? And I think so many women end up
in my office being like I'm fifty and I have
no idea who I am because I love done his
checkboxes my whole life. That's been an interesting ride for
me and I as I was reading your book, I
have yet to make my list of those. And you
know what, I've found so much resistance when I've gone
(21:21):
to do this in my life, to make my list
of desires and needs, and I feel like I'm going
to be taking up too much space when i create
these lists, and then I think are these really mine?
Or am I trying to still please someone within this list?
And then you start to be so a meshed with
(21:42):
the whole world basically that you don't know what's truly
yours and what's not. But I do think like just
my simple thing I want to entertain and I want
to connect like that all of a sudden felt like
a real truth. I feel like there's body wisdom in this,
and like when it feels like you connect so deeply
where it feels like for me it runs through my
whole body. I know, like that's me yep, But imagine
(22:04):
feeling that way all the time because we love that. Yes. Well, well,
the more you do this, though, the more you see
that as we honor our boundaries right. Because this is
all about our relationship with ourselves. And even though we
are raised to look outside of ourselves all the time
to make sure everyone else is okay, the truth in
(22:27):
life is that our relationship with ourselves right, that sets
the bar for every other relationship that we have. So
if we have a low opinion of ourselves, if we
work ourselves to death, if we're always last on our
own list, so to speak, inevitably we attract people who
are takers because we are givers, and then eventually we
(22:50):
are resentful. So when you have a better relationship to yourself,
take better care of yourself. I don't mean you personally,
I just mean in general. We are letting people know,
oh hey, this is an appropriate way drawing boundaries is
letting people know this is okay with me, this is
not okay with me, right, And it's the most loving
(23:12):
thing that you can do, because then the people in
your life actually know who you are. They're not guessing
it always, And then we're we end up presenting those
people for getting it wrong and then for allowing really
this relationship where their needs are being taken care of
(23:34):
only and ours are ours are not, And it's painful recently,
I've I've had a much better relationship with self. And
one of the things that has come up for me
so deeply is the amount of resentment that I have
for the entire world. It's like and and to admit
(23:55):
that what has been it's literally been over the past week.
I'm like, I was in everything and everyone and having
to do everything and this I mean, And my my
therapist was like, yeah, I'm like, I'm glad you're angry,
Like this is what I was trying to get to,
Like we're getting somewhere, and I'm like, it doesn't feel
like it's horrible, but it's true. When you can see
(24:16):
that your needs have been you've been putting yourself last.
You know, I can see now why I resent everything.
But that next step, though, like I totally feel that,
I totally feel that in this is a phase of healing,
and I think that there's a really important phase coming
up where we start mourning. Yeah, the way we wished
(24:41):
it was we start we need to like honor that
that things didn't turn out the way exactly as we've planned,
or that we spent a lot of time. When I
realized this about boundaries, I was like, oh, my God,
like wasted the last fifteen years of my life, like
dancing so fast, walking on eggshells, being exhausted, being resentful.
(25:02):
I wish I had known this younger quote unquote, you know,
but I needed to write about that journal, about that
honor my sadness that I didn't have those skills sooner,
so to speak. So with any transformation, in any change,
it's important that we mourn. Sort of like you said,
I'm resentful, but but again, most of the time under
(25:25):
resentment is something else, right, there is resentment is an
easier emotion, but probably it's really a secondary and probably
sadness the primary emotion, you know what I mean? Yeah,
for sure, I definitely know there's tons of sadness there
that I've come up against around not having my needs
(25:45):
met um by many different my parents, by by world. Recently,
I just celebrated my year of my very first album,
and to have to look back upon that was the
has been really the first time I've ever looked back
and truly appreciated my younger self and really had a
(26:08):
very clear understanding of what I went through and not
no longer in denial of of the challenges and the
trauma that I've experienced over the last twenty five years,
and it's been intense, but it's been it has been
really liberating. And there has been a lot of grief
that is coming up as I look back, and I
(26:31):
think that that grief, like you're saying, is such an
important part. So I feel like I'm not I'm no
longer living in the fantasy of thinking that it can
still be better, Like I can make that part of
my life better. Right, there's a great and Lemo quote
where she said, um forgiveness quote unquote is basically giving
(26:52):
up hope for a better past. You know what I mean.
I mean that that's I just butchered it. That's not
exactly what it says, but the way she says it
is quite brilliant, where it's like there's there's something profoundly
um liberating can be in the acceptance of what was true, right,
what actually happened, you know, And I think that many
(27:15):
of us, you know, there's so much of the work
that I do with boundaries and psychological health and mental
wellness where I talk about going into the basement of
your mind. So right, this is the your unconscious mind
where we repress a lot of things. But there's information
that's down there, and we're not just bringing up like
painful crap for no reason. We're bringing up these things
(27:37):
because if we don't honor them, they then inform our
current life. We can't control the psychotherapeutic way the brain works,
but we can honor what happened by writing about it,
by honoring the kid that you were right, Like I
think about different whether it's aged seven, thirteen, seventeen twenty one,
(27:58):
all every age, all of us have injuries that happen
in life, and when you're taught to like deny them,
Like in my family that nobody was ever allowed to
be mad. You know, it was like as long as
everything was positive, you could talk about it. So I
really learned to be like, if it's bad, just deny it,
(28:18):
repress it, you know, sweep it under the rug. But
of course that only works for so long, you know. Yeah, absolutely, Well,
it's interesting when I think of boundaries, it's just been
a bit intimidating my whole life because I think of boundaries,
the only thing I really think of is like a
wall between me and the world or a wall between
me and other I feel like that's probably pretty common.
(28:38):
How do we begin to have these boundaries that are
more pliable, because that really is what we're looking for, right,
Like more a way to not only like push everything out,
but allow the good stuff to also penetrate. Right, you
want healthy boundaries, right, So boundaries come in different forms, right,
they come in so poorest boundaries or too malleable, rigid
(29:00):
boundaries are too firm as you're describing. And I think
that the myth that people have is that rigid boundaries
are what healthy boundaries are, which is not true. So
people think that it's like saying no and rejecting and
confrontation and being mean and being stingy and being greedy
and being selfish. I mean, I could keep going because
I've heard so many from people like I'm afraid of this.
(29:22):
I don't want them to think that when it comes
to boundaries, and I'm like, listen, all we're talking about
is starting with knowing who you are and starting to
understand what your preferences, your desires, your limits, and your
deal breakers are in life, knowing that you have a
(29:43):
right to those things. And the reason I put them
in categories is because your preference is not the same
as a deal breaker. They are all different levels of
boundaries and different levels of importance. Right a preference. Maybe
I want to go to bed early and my husband
wants to go to bed late. That's a preference. Maybe
we can meet in the middle, maybe we can't, but
I'm not going to get divorced over it. You know
(30:05):
someone who's in recovery but then relapses, that might be
more of a deal breaker. So part of it is
understanding that there's no like across the board. This is
healthy boundaries. Each situation is individual, and I think the
easiest place to start is to just stop the auto yes,
(30:27):
because a lot of us are people pleasers. A lot
of us don't even feel like we have the right
to take time to think about it. If someone asked something,
you're like, right, yep, okay, good, I'm there, And that
is sabotaging your ability to have a good boundary or
to be honest. So that's the first step that I
(30:48):
have people do, which is to just buy time for
the next three to five days. No matter what anyone
asks you to do, you cannot give an immediate response.
Because we've also trained people in our life, We've trained
them to expect us to get back to them immediately.
We we don't even feel like we can take a day,
many of us. And it depends on what your boundary
(31:08):
dysfunction is. Right, Some people are loners. Right did you
take I don't think you did. I meant to send
you my boundary quiz. It's just called boundary dot com.
So if anyone wants to take it, it's boundary quiz
dot com. And this will give you the arc type
that your most and it's only thirteen questions. It's super
(31:29):
quick to do. But you know it. You know what
the answers are when you're like, oh yeah, totally me,
totally me. Because when you get the arch type, you
can either be like, let's say, the chameleon, push over
the peacekeeper, or like the ice queen or the loner.
I feel like, depending on the situation, I could be
one of all of those. You know, It's true, were
(31:53):
usually more than one, right, right, but we almost always
have one predominant because a chameleon, which is someone who
kind of just goes along to get along with like
what other people are doing, is a bit different than
a peacekeeper who is actively putting out fires that are
not they didn't start and are not theirs, but they
want to make sure so you'll see there there is
(32:16):
a distinction, and I think that understanding that is a
really helpful place to start. But if you're someone who
feels like you have the disease to please other people,
or that you know you have this people pleasing syndrome,
and if you feel like you're codependent, meaning you know,
think about what is codependency. It's an overt or covert
(32:38):
bid to control the outcomes of other people. Right. We
don't want our friend to get into that terrible relationship,
or we don't want our partner to make that big
mistake we think they're going to make. And yet, when
you're not codependent and you have healthy boundaries, you know
that those things are the people you love. That there's
to decide. It doesn't mean you can't brainstorm with or
(33:00):
talk about it with them. But we're not auto advice
giving all the time, constantly making suggestions and doing more
than we need to, because all of that stuff is codependency.
So I say, let's just start by stopping the auto
yes buying time, which can be super easy. You just say,
oh my god, thank you so much for thinking of me.
(33:21):
Can I let you know by Friday. Yeah. And if
they go, no, I need to know sooner. You're like, well,
if you need to know now, what to know because
I don't make instant decisions. And but if you can
wait till Thursday, that's like, you know, we can negotiate
for what it is we want to do. That sounds
like me deciding on whether or not I want to
do a show, like I'll I'll get an offer, and
they're like, they need to know today. I'm like, well,
I guess it's a now totally because you're like, so,
(33:45):
you know what better I have to say. I've gotten
I've gotten much better with my boundaries. But I mean,
I think your book really did point out so many places,
which is great. I mean that's I'm open to seeing
all the places in which I've I've yet to grow
in these areas, and I think this is probably the
last place for me because I feel so I've learned
so well how to be a people. Please are like,
(34:07):
I've gotten it down. I've gotten it down on such
a large scale. Being down with this downtime during COVID,
like it's actually given me a lot of us a
reset point. And I'm feeling like I don't have to
jump back into like all of these yeses, and it's there.
There is an internal like spaciousness that comes along with
(34:28):
that that feels so good. As I'm thinking about because
I really am going to go take that quiz that
I'm I'm gonna do my list of preferences and desires
and deal breakers. But how do you determine what the
differences between a preference and a desire. A preference is
something that is not that serious. I prefer coffee over tea. God,
(34:48):
I prefer a shower over time. I have a preference.
You know, you go out to your deciding to go
out to dinner. You know, I think I feel like
having this eat. That's a preference. That's how your partners like,
oh no, please, I'm to have such a hanker for
this other kind of food. You could be like, okay,
we'll have that other kind of food maybe, you know.
So preference is less serious. I find it with desires,
(35:10):
they're they're bigger things. You may have a desire to
live somewhere else. You may have a desire to change careers.
You may have a desire to sort of renegotiate what's
going on within your marriage or your friendships. So desires
are a little bit more important, I think. And then
we move into the limits, which are the things you're like, no,
(35:32):
I do not this is this is a limit for me.
I don't want to do that. But then a deal
breaker is something that is a total non negotia, right, absolutely,
all right, we are going to take a quick breather,
but we'll be right back with more wisdom from Terry Cole.
Welcome back, loves. We are discussing how boundaries can actually
(35:55):
make or break healthy relationships. As we begin to set
these boundaries is and we began to train the other
is in our life to treat us in a different way. Obviously,
that change and that shift is going to cause a
lot of ripples. What do you find people come up
against the most one are the most the biggest challenges
(36:16):
in their relationships. And as we start to shift these dynamics,
what are some of the ways in which we can
possibly make these shifts a little bit smoother. Yes, Well,
here's the thing. Yes, when you're changing the dance, right,
every relationship is like a dance, So your partner is
going to notice that you're changing something. Usually so The
(36:37):
first thing is to be prepared that people are going
to notice and that they will feel threatened by you changing.
So that's okay. Like, if you're a people pleaser, you've
got to get that it's okay for someone to not
like what you're doing in this moment. For someone to
not like that you've decided you're no longer going to
be doing the grown kids laundry at home or whatever
(37:00):
the thing is, people will be up in arms like,
oh my god, what do you mean you always did
it this way? Okay, well I'm changing that. What I
see the most is once we realize we need to
change something, there is such a desire to make a
big announcement about it, to like get a megaphone and
be like, bitches, everything is going to change. I feel
(37:23):
like that right there with you in my life right now,
so please help me out with this. So we don't
want to do that, Like the megaphone telling everyone there's
a new boundary share in town is not that helpful
because that is the codependent part that feels anxious, and
we just want to discharge some of that anxiety by
(37:43):
being like, I want to let you know it's all changing.
What really works, though, is to change things slowly, one
next right action at a time. So we start with
our preferences. If you're someone who wouldn't normally share your preferences,
we do it. If here's someone who always shares your preferences,
(38:06):
because your boundaries are more rigid and you're bossing the
hell out of everyone and everything has got to be
your way. Instead of asserting your preferences more, I'm going
to ask you to step back a little bit because
that is a fear driven response as well. Never sharing
them and over sharing them two sides of the same coin.
(38:26):
The coin is disordered boundaries. But we're doing it one
situation at a time. You can show the people in
your life that you can stay lovingly connected to them
and still stand in your strength and your boundary. So
I would say to someone, whether it was my mother
(38:47):
who was upset about something or whoever, I see that
you're upset that I'm no longer going to host Christmas
in my whatever whatever the thing is, And I love
you and I'm sad that you're upset, and yet this
is what I need to do for myself. So Vic
and I are going away during Christmas. So I am
glad that you know. I expect you to respect the boundary,
(39:09):
but I also understand so we can celebrate the week before,
let's celebrate the week after whatever, so I don't have
to be mad. Part of it is we cannot be
so thin skinned and reactionary that the moment we get
pushed back back in the day when you were a
total code of bender, or when I was, I could
immediately be that chameleon that moved into changing my message
(39:33):
to make sure that they were not upset about what
I was doing. Right Like, the moment I got pushed back,
I'd be like, no, no, you misunderstood me. I would
like to be like what I said was what I
meant was. So we're not doing that because we can't
be that thin skinned. It's going to take time to
change these dances. So here's the thing. It's okay to
(39:55):
be uncomfortable when you start to draw new boundaries, when
you start to speak up or talk true, I like
to say in a different way, there's a part of
you that's gonna want to take that boundary back so bad,
Like you're gonna so much want to call them back
and be like forget it. It's fun. I can work
on New Years whatever or whatever. The thing is right,
We're not doing that. So I have a rule in
(40:16):
the book. We have a forty eight hour rule where
you're gonna be okay, You're just gonna up your self
care even though you feel guilty, you feel bad, do
you think you're a rotten human being? All of that
is an amplified response to changing. It is the child
within you that is totally afraid they're going to be
in trouble. You're not in trouble, and I promise you,
(40:39):
after forty eight hours, you do will not want to
take that boundary back. Absolutely. I just had this whole
experience with my mother and setting a boundary with her,
and I had such grief after it. I cried for
like twenty four hours, and I was like, I'm there
was a piece at me that was like, I'm the
most awful person. This is my mother. How could I
(40:59):
do us to her? How could I hurt her? And then,
like you're saying about forty hours later, I was like, Okay,
I just went through that whole process and I feel
really good and now I feel like I'm standing on
my own two feet a little more as an adult woman.
It really does take. Forty eight hours is a great tool.
It is a great tool. It gives some space. And
like you're saying, if after forty eight hours we feel
(41:21):
the need to go back on that, I think then
there's something that we should be reevaluating that in our
boundary in the first place. So yeah, for hours. I
gotta tell you. At a time, women in my courses,
people who get in touch with me who have been
reading the book, they're like, it's amazing, And what kind
(41:42):
of blows people's minds, Like I'm thinking, like, what is
the feedback that I get the most when people start
this process is how readily others except their boundaries. We
always start with lower priority people because it would be
hard to start with the mother's right because they're that's hard,
or even the partners, that's hard because these are primary
(42:05):
v I P s in our life. So we start
with lower priority people, like whoever, whoever it is, whether
it's your colorist or your mail carrier or whoever. If
you have a preferencey video of something you'd like to say,
if your lunch comes and it's not what you're breaking,
order to send it back, do the things out in
the world that you wouldn't normally be doing, because that
(42:26):
starts to set you up to be like okay, And
the feedback is that people are surprisingly cool right with
the boundaries that, of course the person setting them was
positive that there was going to be a big brawl,
the world was going to stop spinning on its access,
they were going to spontaneously light into flames, and that
did not happen. So that's amazing, And then you get
(42:47):
more confident. Like you said, forty eight hours later, you
felt better. We can still say it bums me out.
I wish, I wish my mom didn't feel that way,
and yet this is still the right thing for me
to do for me and that has to be our
(43:08):
top priority. And we've been so trained to think that
that's being selfish, and the reality is you do. Really,
if we want something valuable to give to the people
in our life who we love, we can't give it
from an empty bucket. We can't give it by checking
boxes and being bitter, because that's what that is. The
(43:31):
end result of disordered boundaries is being angry with other people.
Instead of focusing on our inability to say no, we
focus on Betty's entitlement or Bob's behavior. When you know
that you can say no, that you're not doing what
doesn't work for you in your life, and that you
can do this lovingly and with kindness and with ease
(43:54):
and with grace. I mean eventually, like in the beginning
it might be messy, but you'll get there, you know
what I mean. Yeah, absolutely, it's basically the projection. Instead
of dealing with, like you're saying, your inability to say
no and how uncomfortable it is for you, you project
that anger and frustration out onto the rest of the world. Yes,
I understand that very well. That is correct. Yeah, it's
(44:17):
this is I love this conversation because I feel like
there's such power and strengthen it. It's interesting even you
were saying how we've learned that selfishness is bad. I
look at your even the title of your book boundary Boss.
I was giggling to myself this morning because I was
thinking in the past, for me, that would have been
like boundary bitch, Like you know what I mean, Like,
(44:37):
that's what the what I think of when I say,
when you put boundaries and boss into one, you know,
one little couple there, it's I think of, Oh, she's
a bit like that's how we've been trained, and it's
so beautiful to be able to and I think such
a gift to the self, and also like you're saying
to everyone around you, to be able to come into
(44:59):
a play where you can lovingly give direction and the
way to love me. Yes, it's really what it is.
It's that something it is. And why do we make
the people in our life guests because they always freaking
get it wrong, and not because they're idiots, because they're
not us right right, and they're not mind readers. No,
(45:23):
So it's so much even if you just when I
used to counsel couples, which I absolutely hated, but when
I did do it, just improve I could to myself.
It was so stressful to me personally anyway. I would
say to the husbands and this is like heteronormative, that's
who the who the clientele was. So the husbands would
complain they they wanted, you know, more sex. The women
(45:44):
would complain they wanted more help and they didn't want
their husbands fixing them, and they just were like, can
this person ever just listen to me without like making
a suggestion I'm not going to take. So it really
boiled it down to teaching the husbands to say, hey, babe,
how can I best support you? Would be great. How
about just asking her? And then I would say to
(46:06):
the wives, and then it's your job to share, how
is that person best supporting you? Make me a cup
of tea, sit down and talk to me. Wonderful around Like,
I don't know. There's lots of ways that you could
write and support the person. And I said to the husbands,
you know, you think that you want more physical intimacy,
But I'm telling you, if you looked at the act
(46:27):
of thinking about your wife when you're not with her
doing the things that you know she wants you to
do around the house without her asking you eleven times,
think of that as for a play, because that's how
it's going to impact her. The more she has to
harangue you, the less thought about she feels by you
during the day, not when you're looking to get laid,
(46:50):
like when you're actually just you know, out in your life.
That's that, Oh my god, so simple, that's so true.
Like Okay, I think I can do that. Just take
out the damn garbage without her asking, and she might
want to do you would be all right love, and
(47:11):
on that inspiring note, We're going to pause very quick break,
but we'll be right back. Hello friends. Terry was just
breaking down how different reactions and our day to day
lives can set us on the path clearer boundaries. I
(47:32):
want to shift just a little bit to what you
call boundary destroyers. When I got to this piece of
the book, I was like, WHOA, I have a few
of these in my life and a few of them
that aren't going anywhere, and so can you describe what
a boundary destroyer is? First off, sure, I did a
whole chapter on this because it is very common. So
(47:55):
these are people who are emotional predators. There are ootional manipulators.
It could be intentional, it could be unintentional. It could
be these cluster b personality disorders like narcissistic personality disorder,
by polar histrionic, oppositional. There's a whole bunch that go
into one sort of group. So what I wanted the
(48:16):
reader to understand is that everything that I teach you
up unto that point does not apply two boundary destroyers,
because the rules don't apply to boundary destroyers because they
are incapable. These personalities that I'm talking about incapable of
(48:38):
really taking in another person. They don't have that. You know,
if you think about narcissistic personality disorder, we talk about
there's an in um, their incapable of having real empathy
for others. It's like scary, sad, but it's true. So
but allowed of people with these personality disorders and with
these these challenges can really seem like they can pretend
(49:02):
like they can do this, and yet everything is a
manipulation to their end, whatever it is that they want.
And so it's very important to how I break down
the chapter is sharing with the reader what are the
sort of the biggest tools that boundary destroyers used to
destroy our boundaries. So you have gas lighting, right, which
(49:25):
you know has become kind of popularized, where it's somebody
basically denying your reality, trying to really trying to make
you doubt your own sanity. There is love bombing, where
it's like just pouring on the compliments. And you know,
anyone who's been in a relationship with a narcissist knows
(49:45):
what this is. It's too good to be true because
you're the most amazing thing and sex is unbelievable, and
they want to fly to Paris for dinner, and they
can't wait to take you to a wedding, Like and
they asked you to go to wedding and it's not
for like two years. You're like, oh my god, we're
totally getting like druss me if it seems too good
to be true. With love bombing, it's there's also an
(50:06):
accelerated timeline, like you met in like in three weeks,
they're like, we're moving in together. You're like, oh my god, Okay,
well this is moving kind of fast. And someone was like,
but how do I know if that person I met
and it happened really fast, how do I know that
that was, you know, love bombing? I was like, Hi,
if it's five years later and the person is still
(50:27):
good to you and you're still things are amazing, it
wasn't love bombing. It was just a relationship that moved fast.
Love bombing and this cycle of abuse, it goes from
you're the most amazing thing to some kind of situation
where now you fall out of favor with the narcissist.
Then they discard you. There they're rejecting you. You're you're
working over time to get back in their good graces,
(50:49):
and then the cycle happens all over again. It can
happen weekly, it can happen every four years, but it's painful.
The whole thing is painful. So you want to be
aware of psychologically, what are the tricks acting that they're
concerned about you, right, So if you say something that
they don't like, you're pointing out their crappy behavior and something.
They'll be like, but I'm really worried about you. You're
(51:12):
you're really off the rails right now. I don't know,
are you okay? Oh yes, oh am I okay, yeah.
You just don't want me to talk about the thing
I'm talking about. So now you're gonna put me on
the defensive. But here's the thing. If you read this
chapter and you get really well versed in these tricks
of the trade from these master manipulators, you will not fall.
(51:36):
You won't be such a victim to them in your
life because this isn't just about romantic relationships. This is friendships,
this is work relationships, this is people on your team,
this is you know what I mean? Because the cracked
pot finds the correct lid, which is why we want
to heal these childhood wounds. Whatever they may be, so
that because a lot of times we're not only acting
(51:58):
these things out or playing them out in our romantic lives.
Obviously we have relationships with lots of people where this
can be acted out. But there's lots of things that
you can do to not allow these types of personalities
to manipulate you. Stepping back, yes, drawing boundaries, but we
(52:20):
do it differently with boundary destroyers. It's more about removing
their access to our most tender heart, which is challenging.
It can be very, very challenging. And I've noticed that
I know all of these things. But then when I'm like, oh,
I'll open the door and things, will you think that
(52:40):
people have changed because they their covert ways of making
you think that they have changed is they're so good
at it. I've stepped back before from some people and
been like yours, that's amazing, Like I'm i am you
should win an Oscar for that performance. Like there's something
in me that's still going back and opening that door
(53:01):
and opening that boundary just enough to be hurt again.
And this chapter was so eye opening because I see
so much of this, but I've never had words for it.
So for you to be able to put it into
words and to really like be able to see exactly
what's going on was so so helpful. I highly recommend
people get your book because I it's really been super
(53:23):
super helpful. I love all of the bonus information that
you have for people on this book. For people to
really get clear and in touch with themselves, I think
is so important, Like this is foundational for us to
live happy, healthy lives. Yes, it is and self determined.
So thank you so much for your kind words, and
(53:43):
I'm hoping that this is I just want to reach
as many people as possible who are suffering in a
way that they could learn these skills and you your
joy will be exponentially higher and your suffering will be
exponentially lower. You know, Yeah, what if there was one
take way that you want people to walk away with
from this at the beginning of their boundary boss journey.
(54:05):
What's the beginning? I know they can go take your
boundary quiz, but is there anything else that where people
should begin. Well, here's the thing. The way that begin
with the book. Go to Boundary boss book dot com.
Begin with the book because I literally start at the
very beginning and I walk you through every single step
of the way. I also have a course where I actually,
(54:28):
in real life walk people through and that starts and
I think it's starting in the third week in September
this year, where it's live right, so people can get
their actual questions answered. And there's a whole group element
that's amazing. But part of it is no that you
can do this. You got this, and I got you
(54:48):
like I know you, I was you. There's nothing to
be ashamed of. You shouldn't know this already. Think about
it like learning a foreign language. You don't feel guilty
or bad or ashamed of yourself if you weren't just
suddenly fluent in another language. That's being fluent in boundaries.
It is a language. And I give you a whole
(55:09):
chapter on just scripts, which is right. I'm so going
to be using them, by the way, Yes, please please
do I love it. But you can do it, is
all I'm saying. You can do it, yes, And thank
you for mentioning that shame piece, because I know there's
so much shame around this for so many of us.
So I'd love that if you you wouldn't be ashamed
(55:30):
learning foreign language. So that's what we're doing. Just simple, correct,
let's do it together. Yes, I always ask my guests
that I have one about five songs in their life.
I call him the Holy five that you're either into
right now or that you've just loved your entire life,
and why so bring it out? All right? Here we go.
First of all, I wrote ten, but I'm always going
(55:51):
to tell you five because I was like, I can't.
And when I realized, can I just say what happened
for me? When I did this yesterday? I was like,
hi year old, Like literally, I went into my I tunes,
I was like the top most listened to. I was like, Wow,
they've been the same for like twenty years. That just
made you love them so much? I do, all right,
(56:12):
So Marvin Gaye and Tammy Terrell, you're all I need
to get by. Oh yeah, Areatha Franklin natural one the
(56:35):
day I'm mad? So you are the key to Lappy
piece of Black, Barbara Streisan or Luther v androws how
(57:00):
it's not a Home. I love that it's There's not
but blue, but I love both those versions. And Barbara's
(57:24):
goes into one less bell to answer, so good. Um, Okay,
Then we have Joan Osborne's cover of Dolly Pardons. Do
I ever cross your mind? What I've never heard that?
That's so cool? And do you live this feelings and
love we shared when you are with me? Do you, Darling?
(57:46):
I just wonder, do I cross your mind? It's a
compilation of all other artists covering Dolly's stuff on the
album is called Just Because I'm a Woman, Uh huh,
and there's so many I also love Code of Many
Colors on there, and Shanayan does an amazing version of
that from but What It's so although we had no
(58:16):
money here, what trenches? That could be my Code of
Many Colors? Mamma, thank you, thank you so fun. I
so appreciate you caring about your mental health and all
the good that you're doing in the world helping people
find mental health wellness. Thank you. I have um. I
really did thoroughly enjoy your book and I'm going to
(58:38):
be diving in more so. Thank you for thank you
for bringing this to the world. I think we all
are in desperate need of it right on. Thanks my love,
have a good day to be continued. Yes, I'll talk
to you soon and that ends this boundary building episode.
I'm holy human. Thank you all so much for spending
your time with me as always, and please post your
(59:01):
thoughts wherever you're listening. I'd love to see if this
land is the view. Also, if you feel this conversation
could benefit a friend, please feel free to share this
with them too. Until next time. On our next Holy Human,
I'll be joined by my friend Kyle Cease. He is
a man who left comedy to bring more happiness and
peace into the world, and I am so glad that
(59:23):
he did because you will not want to miss his
wonderful way of merging laughter and spirituality. Such a fantastic guy,
and I'm so glad that we have met through the podcast.
He's become a friend of mine. So until then, I
wish you all love, take care of each other, love yourself,
love everyone around you, and I'll see you soon. Holy
Human with Me Leanne Rhymes is a production of I
(59:45):
Heart Radio
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