February 18, 2021 • 24 mins
Presidential elections have taken place in America every four years since 1788, but the 2020 election was unlike anything we had experienced before. Amid a pandemic, an economic crisis, and a long overdue reckoning with systemic racism, Americans made their votes and voices heard in record numbers, electing the historic ticket of Joe Biden and Kamala Harris. Yet even after the results made clear that he had lost, Donald Trump tried to overturn the results of the free and fair election and undermine the public’s faith in our system—eventually leading to the assault on the Capitol on January 6.
In this episode one of America’s most respected presidential historians and best-selling author Douglas Brinkley joins President Clinton to make sense of what we just lived through, and to reflect on how future generations might view what will likely be one of the most consequential and intensely examined elections in American history.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
To say that was a year unlike any we'd ever
lived through before would be an understatement. America and the
world experienced the pandemic and economic crisis, along overdue reckoning
with racism, climate related disasters, including the most active hurricane
season on record and raging wildfires on the West Coast,
(00:22):
and as a result of all this, we experienced a
complete upheaval in the ways we live, learn, work, and
interact with one another. Amidst all these challenges, Americans held
a national election, casting their ballots and record numbers, and
a presidential election that has been a bedrock of our
(00:43):
constitutional democracy from the beginning. It's taken place every four
years amidst wars, depression, and the pandemic, from virtual conventions
to expanded vote by mail and early voting so that
people could cast their ballots safely and reliably. Election often
had a different look and field than those of the past.
(01:06):
In the scope of America's challenges and the widely divergent
ways the two candidates and parties approached them raise the
stakes even higher. Our future and our very democracy were
on the line. That became even more apparent in the
weeks after election day, as Donald Trump and his most
(01:26):
ardent enablers tried to overturn the results of a free
and fair election that he lost and undermine the public's
faith in our entire system, eventually leading to the disgraceful
and deadly assault on the Capitol on January six. So
why am I telling you this? Because with every new
development in the campaign and its aftermath, it was clear
(01:49):
we were living through one of the most consequential moments
in our history, one that would be intensely examined and
debated for years to come. Against the backdrop of our
own lives. We were also living history in real time,
never sure what each new day would bring, and we
still are. I've been thinking about this a lot lately,
(02:13):
wondering what future generations will make of all of it,
and what we as a country and as individuals will
or will not do to keep us moving forward. It's
clear to me that President Biden and Vice President Harris
are doing everything they can to serve everyone and working
to bring us all back together. But the damage of
(02:35):
the last four plus years of poison politics is very real.
That's why I'm so glad to have a friend with
me today who's one of America's most distinguished historians, the
person I've learned to turn to when I'm trying to
make sense of these kinds of questions. Douglas Brinkley is
a professor of history at Rice University, an amazingly prolific author, commentator,
(03:01):
and a walking encyclopedia of American history, politics, and culture.
I'm glad he's here, and glad we're going to have
this conversation. Thanks for being here, Doug. Thank you for
having me, Mr President. Why did you decide to become
a historian? Well, I was born in Atlanta, Georgia, and
(03:22):
my mother and father were teachers, high school teachers. My
dad did social studies and my mother was an English teacher,
which meant we didn't have much money. Um, so we
had a small house. But what we did have was
time and time in our summer, and so we got
a trailer, a twenty four ft Coachman trailer, and my
(03:43):
mom and dad would take my sister and I all
over America. I got to visit the lower forty eight
states by the time I graduated from high school, and
in particular, they took us to history sites. So I
would go to Independence, Missouri and see Harry Truman's house,
where we'd go to Nebraska and and discover the landscape
(04:06):
of the novelist Willa Cather, or we would go to
California and look at John Steinbeck's house. On and on.
The national parks were built into this a lot, you know,
whether from the Everglades to the Grand Canyon, from North
Cascades National Park to you know, the the Lake Shores
in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan. We went all over
(04:28):
and I just fell in love with the history sites.
I would take pictures of myself at the homes of
former presidents, at at graves of Paul Revere or or
you know, Abraham Lincoln's tomb, and I just kind of
became a history nerd. So by the time I was
going to college, Um, I was debating law or history,
(04:48):
and eventually I chose to make my profession to be
a historian. Well, historian, how do you think history will
review this election? Boy, Um is gonna live for a
long time. I mean, first and foremost people are going
to remember, Um, this was the year of the pandemic,
one of the giant moments in all of US history. Um.
(05:11):
You know, we've had tragedies of you know, John F.
Kennedy's assassination in nineteen sixty three, or the Oklahoma City bombing,
which you led us through UM so admirably, or nine
eleven with UM George W. Bush. But those the disaster,
if you like, tragedy happened in a localized way. COVID
(05:33):
hit everybody, every state, every community, and everybody was asked
to participate. So it's interesting to me that Joe Biden
in the end developed the mask as his version of UM.
The make America Great red caps of Trump meaning a
symbol of twenty will be Biden's mask because early on
(05:55):
he decided to lay low in Delaware, only do a
limited amount of events and make sure he's social distance
and try to educate the public on the public health
pandemic that we were suffering through by by example. And
so I think Biden will be remembered as the mass
president who did the right thing through the pandemic, where
(06:17):
Donald Trump was quite reckless. I think history will also
look at as a record number of voter participation. I
find that to be heartening UM, that we really were
able to run a free and fair election without UM
foreign interference, and we had record voter turnout which means
(06:40):
our people in America showed up during a pandemic to vote,
and so I find that upbeat. But in the end,
the oddity of um Donald Trump, his strange behavior um
throughout the pandemic, a holding of rally and Tulsa with
no mask, and then his botching of of how to
(07:03):
communicate to the public about the pandemic, really stays. You
know it's there, and there's the excitement at the end
of the year. I remember Mr President of ninety eight,
after Nixon and Humphrey and Wallace and the assassinations of
King and and Bobby Kennedy, the astronauts were on the
(07:24):
cover of Time magazine in December of nine looking at
planet Earth and are gearing up for going to the moon.
When I saw Joe Biden and Kamala Harris first woman
Vice president uh UM on the cover of Time, I thought, Wow,
even through this weird, ugly year, we're breaking a first
in America with Kamala Harris becoming vice president. So I'm
(07:48):
trying to feel upbeat about our democracy, even though I
do recognize we're we've got a lot of corrosive issues
we're having to grapple with. Well, I guess Douglas Brinkley
after this. I want to welcome Doug Brinkley back and
(08:14):
say that when we originally talked, it was before the
attack on the Capitol along January six, and I think
that it's important to put that into some sort of
historical context as well as thinking about what it means
today and going forward. Um So, first of all, let's
(08:35):
do just the TATA history. Doug, uh, can you tell
us about some other examples of insurrection in the country's
history and violence against institutions. What happened? What can we
learn from it? Well, it is unprecedented what happened on
January six. I mean, it's going to live in infamy.
(08:55):
It's going to be one of those moments where the
video footage is played over and over again, like the
Kennedy assassination or the planes going into the World Trade Center.
But when you look back in American history, and we've
had plenty of insurrections, I think the energy of the
Trump insurrection you could see parallels with the No Nothing
(09:18):
Party of the eighteen forties. In eighteen fifties, the know
Nothings were vehemently anti Catholic. They had conspiracy theories, about
how the pope was going to run America. They wanted
America to stay a white Christian Protestant country. So German
and Irish immigrants coming to America, we're getting killed, stoned, hazed, um.
(09:44):
And it really grew in power the know nothing things.
I mean, former President Millard Fillmore was drafted as ex
president to lead the No Nothing Party. People like John
Wilkes Booth considered himself a know nothing. The leading congress
people in Massachusetts, in Maryland became know nothings um. And
(10:06):
of course that led that tension of that anti immigration
view kind of fizzled out once we got into the
Buchanan presidency and we are on the doorstep of the
Great Civil War. And nothing talks insurrection more than the
Civil War. I mean the fact that Abraham Lincoln had
to take a train ride from Springfield to Washington, d C.
(10:30):
With the assassin's lurking, going into an executive mansion that
wasn't protected, and the thought that when the Fort Sumner
happened in the Southern States broke, Lincoln was just surrounded
by basically insurgents. Uh. And incidentally, the no nothings I
see having very similar attributes and people that joined the
(10:52):
Tea Party movement for example, or Q and od uh.
There's a feeling in America about conspiracy, ease that elites
were Masons, and there be used to be a great
anti Mason movement that somehow these elites were had a
secret cabal in society. So the other Americans formed their
(11:13):
own sort of secret cults to try to beat up
on the elites. And so I see a lot of
currents I recognize. However, with social media added into the mix,
which has never before happened in American history, I really
worry about the continuation of other January six, if not
(11:37):
an attack on our capitol, but you know the need
to secure federal and state buildings. There is a real
anti government movement alive and will in our country right now.
And do you think there's going to be a long
term impact. You know, I think that where this whole
year will be getting more puzzle pieces for January six,
(11:59):
it's going to be its own realm of study. There
will be universities that have January six scholars um and
it's going to It's why Nancy Pelosi correctly in my mind,
called for a nine eleven commission like report we just
need to gather more and more data, um, not just
for the sake of helping the FBI or law enforcement
(12:21):
find perpetrators of the capital raid, but just to start
let us understand what happened. And so that's gonna work
itself through for a couple of years here, this neo
civil war we're in right now. You and know better
than I, but I think it's going to go on
for a while. I don't see uh Joe Biden, who
(12:43):
is doing an incredibly great job as president and calming
our country and showing leadership and statesman like qualities, But
it's going to take us a while. Uh. The great
poet Robert Frost used to say, the only way out
is through. Only we're going to get out of this
this mess we're in politically is to kind of go
(13:04):
through all the steps that it could take a few years.
We're gonna have a hard time that. Already. They're literally
a hundred bills introduced in the state legislatures by Republicans
to make it harder to vote. One in Georgia says
you can't have vote my mail anymore unless you've got
a good reason not to vote on election day and
(13:24):
you have to have an affidavit swearing to that, putting
yourself at legal risk. And it's chilling stuff like this everywhere.
There are amendments and offered in my state legislature of
my native state Arkansas, basically trying to control what what
the courts can do and what cases they can hear
and things like that. I mean, this is all over
(13:46):
the country. So they're just as active as they were before.
They're energized, and they believe that they nearly won. And
so we're just gonna have to keep fighting this. And
for the President his administration, the most important thing to
do is produce just produced results people can feel. Where
(14:10):
were you on January six, Mr President, you were in
Chappa Claw and you started watching all of this unfold?
What what did you think? What was your your fears?
And did it ring your Oklahoma City bell or it did?
But I have to say, if you look at what
we saw on six, I knew that Trump said I
(14:34):
you'll have a peaceful march. I heard him say that,
but he was encouraging them to do what they did.
You know, he used to do the same thing in
with his rallies. You know when he said, uh, he'd say,
beat the hell out of the protesters at his rallies?
Are you know, maybe his second amendment? People could take
(14:54):
care of Hillary? And no one took him seriously. I
mean not no one. I took him seriously, but but
I think a lot of people didn't. What I saw
that day was profoundly troubling, but I did not realize
myself until later in the day, and then as the
days unfolded how much actual danger members of Congress were
(15:15):
under at the time. That they could have been viewed
as just a crazy mob having fun, you know, trashing
the capital, which was terrible, but you can repair things.
But it's obvious that a lot of them were there
under an under a planning program and intended to do
(15:37):
what they did and intended to They thought they could
intimidate a number of these Congress people and the Vice
president into changing their opinions. And because Donald Trump told
him that's all it would take, they actually believed him.
We'll be right back. The historian Brinkley, who do you
(16:10):
believe is the most consequential person in American history and
if you will, in world history that most people don't
know much about. Boy, there I have a few that
quickly jumped to mind one I know you would agree
with in recent times as Dolora Suerta. UM. You know,
she's people are looking for a Latino leader, and there
(16:33):
she is in our mist and when you really read
her backstory of bravery working with Caesar Chavez in the
fields and as an organizer, she's somebody that really deserves
a definitive biography and a lot more attention to. UM.
I think Dwight Eisenhower's performance in World War Two, while
(16:55):
we all honor it was really quite remarkable the way
he dealt with all the egos of British generals and
people like Pattent and with the way that Ike's personality
was able to kind of keep a steady hand, uh
throughout World War Two. We probably owe eyes and how
were more gratitude for his leadership during the war than
(17:16):
we then we give him um. And then there's somebody
I've why I've kind of might made a hobby out
of Mr President named Charles Thompson, who was the Secretary
of the Continental Congress when our nation was founded, and
he kept all the minutes at Independence Hall, you know,
the records, and he'd also have to reimburse Jefferson and
(17:37):
Adams for lodging and food and all of this. But he, um,
he kind of was our did an amazing job to
fund Washington's army. So when you read George Washington at
Valley Forge and the men of the Continental Army are
freezing and have dysentery and uh, they're really their toes
(17:58):
are falling off, and it's Washington writing Thompson, I need munitions,
I need blankets, I need medicine. And his ability to
find things that Washington needed during the war. And then
Thompson's the one who chose the eagle as their national
symbol when Ben Franklin wanted the wild Turkey. Yeah, and
(18:20):
he then designed Thompson the Great Seal of the United States.
And he was against slavery. He was an abolitionist and
also wanted quality for women, and I was a lawyer
defending Native American rights. He ran the Sons of Liberty
like Sam Adams ran it in Boston, Charles Thompson ran
it in Philadelphia and was the top beer maker brewer,
(18:44):
and that period of America. Well, Sam Adams now has
a bottle of beer named after him. Nobody's named the
bottle after Charles Thompson, who was actually a more successful
brewer than uh Sam Adams. So one day I hope
somebody does a book on Charles Thompson. I think you've
probably just inspired two or three hundred people to start
looking at it. Give us a travel recommendation. You talked
(19:08):
about traveling as a child, all these places that my
dear love American history. What or two or three places
you to want your children to see now to learn
about the pass in the future. That's my favorite question
you can ask me. Because I'm a I'm a real
road person. I love to go explore America. Underrated UM
(19:30):
is back to that upper Midwest. If you go to
Minneapolis St. Paul and go to um Lake Minniaca right
there near the cities, but then go to the St.
Croy River along the Wisconsin border and then north where
voyagers Um National Park is and nobody really goes in
northern Minnesota. But then in Michigan if you go to
(19:52):
Lake Travis and I'll royal parts, but there's a national
lake Shore I recommend to everybody called Leaping Bear National Lakeshore.
These giant sand dunes that go into the lake. UH
in northern Michigan, and so vacationing up there in the
summers in Minnesota, Michigan is um particularly when the weather
(20:15):
gets warmer in the summers. That's cool up there and
you don't have the crowds of Cape Cod or or
around Seattle or somewhere that that leaps to mind. And
then just Utah to go see the canyon lands, arches
in Zion and Bryce Canyon, what you did for Grand
Escalante and saving that part of the Colorado Plateau which
(20:37):
you can go get lost in the Red Rock wilderness
and you can find solitude and you can hike, and
they're all these little towns there. I'm proud that Utah
has become a National park state that you can really
go and travel. And FDR envisioned it is that FDR
planned Utah to be a National park state as a
(20:58):
way to raise income for the state. And he did
the same for Vermont for ski lodging, and he thought
recreation dollars coming into those states would help defer some
of the mining or types of extraction industries that could
be harmful for the land. So there's nothing like Utah
parks um if you get a chance to go to
(21:19):
them and then in Arizona to the Grand Canyon. Thank
you very much. Um, I can't thank you enough. I
take it. I can close by saying that, on balance,
you still believe America has better days ahead. Absolutely, and
that's what matters most. So thank you Doug Brinkley, and
(21:41):
I hope our listeners enjoyed this. If you have any questions,
you can contact Doug or figure up some of his books.
You'll like them all. Thanks, Thank you, Mr President. That
was fun. Why am I telling you? This is a
production of My Heart Radio, the Clinton Foundation and at
Will Media. Our executive producers are Craig Manascian and Will Malnadi.
(22:05):
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Sarah Harrowitz, and Jake Young, with production support from Tyler
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thanks to John Sykes, Tina Finois, John Davidson on hell Arena,
Corey Gantley, Oscar Flores, Kevin Thurn, and all our dedicated
(22:28):
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(22:51):
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(23:11):
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(23:33):
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(23:54):
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Slash podcast
To say that was a year unlike any we'd ever
lived through before would be an understatement. America and the
world experienced the pandemic and economic crisis, along overdue reckoning
with racism, climate related disasters, including the most active hurricane
season on record and raging wildfires on the West Coast,
(00:22):
and as a result of all this, we experienced a
complete upheaval in the ways we live, learn, work, and
interact with one another. Amidst all these challenges, Americans held
a national election, casting their ballots and record numbers, and
a presidential election that has been a bedrock of our
(00:43):
constitutional democracy from the beginning. It's taken place every four
years amidst wars, depression, and the pandemic, from virtual conventions
to expanded vote by mail and early voting so that
people could cast their ballots safely and reliably. Election often
had a different look and field than those of the past.
(01:06):
In the scope of America's challenges and the widely divergent
ways the two candidates and parties approached them raise the
stakes even higher. Our future and our very democracy were
on the line. That became even more apparent in the
weeks after election day, as Donald Trump and his most
(01:26):
ardent enablers tried to overturn the results of a free
and fair election that he lost and undermine the public's
faith in our entire system, eventually leading to the disgraceful
and deadly assault on the Capitol on January six. So
why am I telling you this? Because with every new
development in the campaign and its aftermath, it was clear
(01:49):
we were living through one of the most consequential moments
in our history, one that would be intensely examined and
debated for years to come. Against the backdrop of our
own lives. We were also living history in real time,
never sure what each new day would bring, and we
still are. I've been thinking about this a lot lately,
(02:13):
wondering what future generations will make of all of it,
and what we as a country and as individuals will
or will not do to keep us moving forward. It's
clear to me that President Biden and Vice President Harris
are doing everything they can to serve everyone and working
to bring us all back together. But the damage of
(02:35):
the last four plus years of poison politics is very real.
That's why I'm so glad to have a friend with
me today who's one of America's most distinguished historians, the
person I've learned to turn to when I'm trying to
make sense of these kinds of questions. Douglas Brinkley is
a professor of history at Rice University, an amazingly prolific author, commentator,
(03:01):
and a walking encyclopedia of American history, politics, and culture.
I'm glad he's here, and glad we're going to have
this conversation. Thanks for being here, Doug. Thank you for
having me, Mr President. Why did you decide to become
a historian? Well, I was born in Atlanta, Georgia, and
(03:22):
my mother and father were teachers, high school teachers. My
dad did social studies and my mother was an English teacher,
which meant we didn't have much money. Um, so we
had a small house. But what we did have was
time and time in our summer, and so we got
a trailer, a twenty four ft Coachman trailer, and my
(03:43):
mom and dad would take my sister and I all
over America. I got to visit the lower forty eight
states by the time I graduated from high school, and
in particular, they took us to history sites. So I
would go to Independence, Missouri and see Harry Truman's house,
where we'd go to Nebraska and and discover the landscape
(04:06):
of the novelist Willa Cather, or we would go to
California and look at John Steinbeck's house. On and on.
The national parks were built into this a lot, you know,
whether from the Everglades to the Grand Canyon, from North
Cascades National Park to you know, the the Lake Shores
in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan. We went all over
(04:28):
and I just fell in love with the history sites.
I would take pictures of myself at the homes of
former presidents, at at graves of Paul Revere or or
you know, Abraham Lincoln's tomb, and I just kind of
became a history nerd. So by the time I was
going to college, Um, I was debating law or history,
(04:48):
and eventually I chose to make my profession to be
a historian. Well, historian, how do you think history will
review this election? Boy, Um is gonna live for a
long time. I mean, first and foremost people are going
to remember, Um, this was the year of the pandemic,
one of the giant moments in all of US history. Um.
(05:11):
You know, we've had tragedies of you know, John F.
Kennedy's assassination in nineteen sixty three, or the Oklahoma City bombing,
which you led us through UM so admirably, or nine
eleven with UM George W. Bush. But those the disaster,
if you like, tragedy happened in a localized way. COVID
(05:33):
hit everybody, every state, every community, and everybody was asked
to participate. So it's interesting to me that Joe Biden
in the end developed the mask as his version of UM.
The make America Great red caps of Trump meaning a
symbol of twenty will be Biden's mask because early on
(05:55):
he decided to lay low in Delaware, only do a
limited amount of events and make sure he's social distance
and try to educate the public on the public health
pandemic that we were suffering through by by example. And
so I think Biden will be remembered as the mass
president who did the right thing through the pandemic, where
(06:17):
Donald Trump was quite reckless. I think history will also
look at as a record number of voter participation. I
find that to be heartening UM, that we really were
able to run a free and fair election without UM
foreign interference, and we had record voter turnout which means
(06:40):
our people in America showed up during a pandemic to vote,
and so I find that upbeat. But in the end,
the oddity of um Donald Trump, his strange behavior um
throughout the pandemic, a holding of rally and Tulsa with
no mask, and then his botching of of how to
(07:03):
communicate to the public about the pandemic, really stays. You
know it's there, and there's the excitement at the end
of the year. I remember Mr President of ninety eight,
after Nixon and Humphrey and Wallace and the assassinations of
King and and Bobby Kennedy, the astronauts were on the
(07:24):
cover of Time magazine in December of nine looking at
planet Earth and are gearing up for going to the moon.
When I saw Joe Biden and Kamala Harris first woman
Vice president uh UM on the cover of Time, I thought, Wow,
even through this weird, ugly year, we're breaking a first
in America with Kamala Harris becoming vice president. So I'm
(07:48):
trying to feel upbeat about our democracy, even though I
do recognize we're we've got a lot of corrosive issues
we're having to grapple with. Well, I guess Douglas Brinkley
after this. I want to welcome Doug Brinkley back and
(08:14):
say that when we originally talked, it was before the
attack on the Capitol along January six, and I think
that it's important to put that into some sort of
historical context as well as thinking about what it means
today and going forward. Um So, first of all, let's
(08:35):
do just the TATA history. Doug, uh, can you tell
us about some other examples of insurrection in the country's
history and violence against institutions. What happened? What can we
learn from it? Well, it is unprecedented what happened on
January six. I mean, it's going to live in infamy.
(08:55):
It's going to be one of those moments where the
video footage is played over and over again, like the
Kennedy assassination or the planes going into the World Trade Center.
But when you look back in American history, and we've
had plenty of insurrections, I think the energy of the
Trump insurrection you could see parallels with the No Nothing
(09:18):
Party of the eighteen forties. In eighteen fifties, the know
Nothings were vehemently anti Catholic. They had conspiracy theories, about
how the pope was going to run America. They wanted
America to stay a white Christian Protestant country. So German
and Irish immigrants coming to America, we're getting killed, stoned, hazed, um.
(09:44):
And it really grew in power the know nothing things.
I mean, former President Millard Fillmore was drafted as ex
president to lead the No Nothing Party. People like John
Wilkes Booth considered himself a know nothing. The leading congress
people in Massachusetts, in Maryland became know nothings um. And
(10:06):
of course that led that tension of that anti immigration
view kind of fizzled out once we got into the
Buchanan presidency and we are on the doorstep of the
Great Civil War. And nothing talks insurrection more than the
Civil War. I mean the fact that Abraham Lincoln had
to take a train ride from Springfield to Washington, d C.
(10:30):
With the assassin's lurking, going into an executive mansion that
wasn't protected, and the thought that when the Fort Sumner
happened in the Southern States broke, Lincoln was just surrounded
by basically insurgents. Uh. And incidentally, the no nothings I
see having very similar attributes and people that joined the
(10:52):
Tea Party movement for example, or Q and od uh.
There's a feeling in America about conspiracy, ease that elites
were Masons, and there be used to be a great
anti Mason movement that somehow these elites were had a
secret cabal in society. So the other Americans formed their
(11:13):
own sort of secret cults to try to beat up
on the elites. And so I see a lot of
currents I recognize. However, with social media added into the mix,
which has never before happened in American history, I really
worry about the continuation of other January six, if not
(11:37):
an attack on our capitol, but you know the need
to secure federal and state buildings. There is a real
anti government movement alive and will in our country right now.
And do you think there's going to be a long
term impact. You know, I think that where this whole
year will be getting more puzzle pieces for January six,
(11:59):
it's going to be its own realm of study. There
will be universities that have January six scholars um and
it's going to It's why Nancy Pelosi correctly in my mind,
called for a nine eleven commission like report we just
need to gather more and more data, um, not just
for the sake of helping the FBI or law enforcement
(12:21):
find perpetrators of the capital raid, but just to start
let us understand what happened. And so that's gonna work
itself through for a couple of years here, this neo
civil war we're in right now. You and know better
than I, but I think it's going to go on
for a while. I don't see uh Joe Biden, who
(12:43):
is doing an incredibly great job as president and calming
our country and showing leadership and statesman like qualities, But
it's going to take us a while. Uh. The great
poet Robert Frost used to say, the only way out
is through. Only we're going to get out of this
this mess we're in politically is to kind of go
(13:04):
through all the steps that it could take a few years.
We're gonna have a hard time that. Already. They're literally
a hundred bills introduced in the state legislatures by Republicans
to make it harder to vote. One in Georgia says
you can't have vote my mail anymore unless you've got
a good reason not to vote on election day and
(13:24):
you have to have an affidavit swearing to that, putting
yourself at legal risk. And it's chilling stuff like this everywhere.
There are amendments and offered in my state legislature of
my native state Arkansas, basically trying to control what what
the courts can do and what cases they can hear
and things like that. I mean, this is all over
(13:46):
the country. So they're just as active as they were before.
They're energized, and they believe that they nearly won. And
so we're just gonna have to keep fighting this. And
for the President his administration, the most important thing to
do is produce just produced results people can feel. Where
(14:10):
were you on January six, Mr President, you were in
Chappa Claw and you started watching all of this unfold?
What what did you think? What was your your fears?
And did it ring your Oklahoma City bell or it did?
But I have to say, if you look at what
we saw on six, I knew that Trump said I
(14:34):
you'll have a peaceful march. I heard him say that,
but he was encouraging them to do what they did.
You know, he used to do the same thing in
with his rallies. You know when he said, uh, he'd say,
beat the hell out of the protesters at his rallies?
Are you know, maybe his second amendment? People could take
(14:54):
care of Hillary? And no one took him seriously. I
mean not no one. I took him seriously, but but
I think a lot of people didn't. What I saw
that day was profoundly troubling, but I did not realize
myself until later in the day, and then as the
days unfolded how much actual danger members of Congress were
(15:15):
under at the time. That they could have been viewed
as just a crazy mob having fun, you know, trashing
the capital, which was terrible, but you can repair things.
But it's obvious that a lot of them were there
under an under a planning program and intended to do
(15:37):
what they did and intended to They thought they could
intimidate a number of these Congress people and the Vice
president into changing their opinions. And because Donald Trump told
him that's all it would take, they actually believed him.
We'll be right back. The historian Brinkley, who do you
(16:10):
believe is the most consequential person in American history and
if you will, in world history that most people don't
know much about. Boy, there I have a few that
quickly jumped to mind one I know you would agree
with in recent times as Dolora Suerta. UM. You know,
she's people are looking for a Latino leader, and there
(16:33):
she is in our mist and when you really read
her backstory of bravery working with Caesar Chavez in the
fields and as an organizer, she's somebody that really deserves
a definitive biography and a lot more attention to. UM.
I think Dwight Eisenhower's performance in World War Two, while
(16:55):
we all honor it was really quite remarkable the way
he dealt with all the egos of British generals and
people like Pattent and with the way that Ike's personality
was able to kind of keep a steady hand, uh
throughout World War Two. We probably owe eyes and how
were more gratitude for his leadership during the war than
(17:16):
we then we give him um. And then there's somebody
I've why I've kind of might made a hobby out
of Mr President named Charles Thompson, who was the Secretary
of the Continental Congress when our nation was founded, and
he kept all the minutes at Independence Hall, you know,
the records, and he'd also have to reimburse Jefferson and
(17:37):
Adams for lodging and food and all of this. But he, um,
he kind of was our did an amazing job to
fund Washington's army. So when you read George Washington at
Valley Forge and the men of the Continental Army are
freezing and have dysentery and uh, they're really their toes
(17:58):
are falling off, and it's Washington writing Thompson, I need munitions,
I need blankets, I need medicine. And his ability to
find things that Washington needed during the war. And then
Thompson's the one who chose the eagle as their national
symbol when Ben Franklin wanted the wild Turkey. Yeah, and
(18:20):
he then designed Thompson the Great Seal of the United States.
And he was against slavery. He was an abolitionist and
also wanted quality for women, and I was a lawyer
defending Native American rights. He ran the Sons of Liberty
like Sam Adams ran it in Boston, Charles Thompson ran
it in Philadelphia and was the top beer maker brewer,
(18:44):
and that period of America. Well, Sam Adams now has
a bottle of beer named after him. Nobody's named the
bottle after Charles Thompson, who was actually a more successful
brewer than uh Sam Adams. So one day I hope
somebody does a book on Charles Thompson. I think you've
probably just inspired two or three hundred people to start
looking at it. Give us a travel recommendation. You talked
(19:08):
about traveling as a child, all these places that my
dear love American history. What or two or three places
you to want your children to see now to learn
about the pass in the future. That's my favorite question
you can ask me. Because I'm a I'm a real
road person. I love to go explore America. Underrated UM
(19:30):
is back to that upper Midwest. If you go to
Minneapolis St. Paul and go to um Lake Minniaca right
there near the cities, but then go to the St.
Croy River along the Wisconsin border and then north where
voyagers Um National Park is and nobody really goes in
northern Minnesota. But then in Michigan if you go to
(19:52):
Lake Travis and I'll royal parts, but there's a national
lake Shore I recommend to everybody called Leaping Bear National Lakeshore.
These giant sand dunes that go into the lake. UH
in northern Michigan, and so vacationing up there in the
summers in Minnesota, Michigan is um particularly when the weather
(20:15):
gets warmer in the summers. That's cool up there and
you don't have the crowds of Cape Cod or or
around Seattle or somewhere that that leaps to mind. And
then just Utah to go see the canyon lands, arches
in Zion and Bryce Canyon, what you did for Grand
Escalante and saving that part of the Colorado Plateau which
(20:37):
you can go get lost in the Red Rock wilderness
and you can find solitude and you can hike, and
they're all these little towns there. I'm proud that Utah
has become a National park state that you can really
go and travel. And FDR envisioned it is that FDR
planned Utah to be a National park state as a
(20:58):
way to raise income for the state. And he did
the same for Vermont for ski lodging, and he thought
recreation dollars coming into those states would help defer some
of the mining or types of extraction industries that could
be harmful for the land. So there's nothing like Utah
parks um if you get a chance to go to
(21:19):
them and then in Arizona to the Grand Canyon. Thank
you very much. Um, I can't thank you enough. I
take it. I can close by saying that, on balance,
you still believe America has better days ahead. Absolutely, and
that's what matters most. So thank you Doug Brinkley, and
(21:41):
I hope our listeners enjoyed this. If you have any questions,
you can contact Doug or figure up some of his books.
You'll like them all. Thanks, Thank you, Mr President. That
was fun. Why am I telling you? This is a
production of My Heart Radio, the Clinton Foundation and at
Will Media. Our executive producers are Craig Manascian and Will Malnadi.
(22:05):
Our production team includes Mitch Bluestein, Jamison cat Sufis, Tom Galton,
Sarah Harrowitz, and Jake Young, with production support from Tyler
Scott and LaTavia Young. Original music by What White. Special
thanks to John Sykes, Tina Finois, John Davidson on hell Arena,
Corey Gantley, Oscar Flores, Kevin Thurn, and all our dedicated
(22:28):
staff and partners at the Clinton Foundation. If you have
an idea of suggestion for the show, we'd love to
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(22:51):
your podcast. By listening to this podcast, you're helping support
the work of the Clinton Foundation. So thank you. Hi.
I'm Dr Mike Kimpill, Director of the Presidential Leadership Scholars Program,
(23:11):
one of a kind partnership between the presidential centers of
Bill Clinton, George W. Bush, George H. W. Bush, and
Lyndon Baines Johnson. President Clinton often says that the key
to great leadership is in finding our common humanity, something
that's needed now more than ever. That's why each year
we bring together a dramatically diverse group of leaders, from
(23:33):
doctors to teachers, elected officials to scientists, active military and veterans,
all of whom have a passion for making the world
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transcends partisan divides and ideological differences in service of a
greater good. Today, Presidential Leadership Scholars across the country are
(23:54):
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