October 13, 2025 • 45 mins
When you write a biography about a man dubbed “Coroner to the Stars,” it’s bound to be a compelling story. Who doesn’t want to read about the coroner who performed the autopsies on Marilyn Monroe, RFK, and Natalie Wood, among others? Author Anne Soon Choi tells me about her book, “L.A. Coroner.”
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
It was really the forensic evidence that led to conviction,
the kind of meticulous work that Thomas Nabucci produced.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor
in Austin, Texas. I'm also the co host of the
podcast Buried Bones on Exactly Right, and throughout my career,
research for my many audio and book projects has taken
me around the world. On Wicked Words, I sit down
with the people I've met along the way, amazing writers, journalists, filmmakers,
(00:50):
and podcasters who have investigated and reported on notorious true
crime cases. This is about the choices writers make, both
good and bad, and it's a deep dive into the
unpublished details behind their stories. When you write a biography
about a man dubbed Corner to the Stars, it's bound
(01:10):
to be a compelling story. Who doesn't want to read
about the coroner who performed the autopsies on Marilyn Monroe
RFK and Natalie Wood author and soon Choi tells me
about her book La Corner. I have never read a title,
a review, or an article that I felt was so
(01:32):
fascinating where they describe the subject of your book as
a controversial corner, which I've never put those two words together.
So I guess this is a great way to introduce him.
Tell me about doctor Thomas Noguchi, you know, start wherever
you think it makes sense.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
Well, he was the first Asian American chief corner of
one of the biggest jurisdictions in the country, Los Angeles County.
You know, I always call him the og inflow answer, like,
he was the master of the media, how to use
the press, how he knew what a SoundBite was before
(02:09):
sound bites. He had this real instinct for self promotion
at a time when we're first seeing that emerge. I mean,
his early career especially parallels the emergence of both television
and television news, but particularly tabloid news, and I think
(02:31):
it goes hand in hand. And his career also mirrors
the post war fascination with death investigation and psychology. And
I think without Thomas Negucci, you wouldn't have, for example,
the entire CSI franchise. If there's any TV procedural that
(02:55):
includes a corner, that's Thomas Negucci's influence. In particular, his
sort of emergence in this time period in southern California
was also a larger conversation about race. You know, where
Japanese Americans after World War Two were going to fit
(03:17):
into the racial and social landscape. And you know the
fact that Thomas Nagucchi did not have a smooth career
like within LA County, and because he took his role
seriously as the corner and demanded that his office be independent,
(03:38):
he was not easily controlled by political interests. But at
the same time he was really invested in making the
corner's office as important and visible as the DA's office.
And so it is a real shift and also the
(04:01):
rise of the corner as this really kind of important
figure is tied into and particularly the corner in LA
the model is the corner medical Examiner, and that is
kind of rooted in post war science. The historical landscape
is really complicated. But also at the same time, you
layer celebrity over this because this is Los Angeles. And
(04:25):
what I think is really fascinating is that Thomas Nagucci
was not immune. And you know, he becomes at first
celebrity adjacent by being the person who autopsies very famous
people including Marilyn Monroe, Robert Kennedy, you know, and the
list goes on. He's involved in the tape La Bianca murders,
(04:46):
and so he becomes famous himself. And I think it
is only in La after World War Two can a
corner become a celebrity. And he really predates all these
people who go on to have these careers commenting on
whether they are paid experts in various lawsuits and legal proceedings.
(05:11):
But also there's so many of these shows now that really,
you know, follow death investigation, both fictionalized and not. And
I think he was really critical. But at the same time,
it's really strange because he disappears from the historical narrative
like in the eighties. I was really fascinated that, like
his entire story was right there in plain sight in
(05:34):
terms of all the historical records, interviews, and so that
was also really interesting to sort of see.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
Well, I'll tell you a side note. My other show,
Buried Bones. I'm with a forensic investigator, Poll Holes, and
he says it was quincymy who inspired him to go
into forensics, and doctor Noguchi is the inspiration for Quincy, right.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
He is the inspiration and unfortun fortunately in Quincy Evy,
the Japanese American character is relegated to a sidekick character,
with Robert do playing the support role for Jack Lugman.
But doctor Nigucci was friends with Jack Plugman. It was
something that he valued and you know, was very public
(06:19):
about and I think he got a real kick out
of being sort of the inspiration for the show.
Speaker 1 (06:26):
One of the things that you and I had talked
about before we started the interview was the conspiracy theory.
You can tell me if he resolves these successfully for
the conspiracy fans, but he's involved with RFK, Marilyn Monroe,
Manson Family, Natalie would all of these conspiracies that people
(06:47):
latch onto, I know, particularly with Marilyn Monroe and RFK.
Is that typical for a medical examiner, let's say in
New York, which might have the same amount of celebrity
or was it just bad luck on his part? Was
he able to climb out of these conspiracies that were
surrounding him.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
I think he's forever tied to these conspiracy theories, and
in fact, you know, he in an interview talks about
sort of the recurring thought that he has that like
after he autopsies Marilyn Monroe and gets embroiled in that
for decades. Maybe they're going to come after him as
the killer. It's something that generates, I think, a certain
(07:27):
heaviness for him, but he is determined, not necessarily to
feed into it, but he's very resolute about sticking to
the science, and I think that sort of is his
guide post. But he's also not above capitalizing on it
for his career and his sort of public persona. He
(07:50):
freely uses, you know, the phrase the coroner to the stars,
like I think in that context, you know, you can't
pick and choose, you take all of it. And so
by being associated with celebrity and becoming a celebrity, then
he's tied to these things. And I think this time
period also like the time period wherein now conspiracy theories,
(08:14):
you know, tied to the Cold War. Conspiracies come about
when people are frightened, when people don't have accurate information,
and there are definitely stark parallels in this time period
to what is happening now. But the really interesting thing
is that these conspiracies don't go away. I mean, this
(08:34):
is why for example, people aren't you know, they just
release a bunch of papers around Martin Luther King, and
you know, they recently released additional papers from the JFK case,
and so they have an ongoing hold on American culture
in various ways. Thomas Mgucci is tied to these things.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
For better or worse. Was there credibility with these conspiracy theorists?
Were they just convinced that he was under somebody's thumb
in the instance of let's say Marilyn Monroe.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
Yeah, right. You know, there were a lot of people
immediately who felt like this was a cover up, and
then there had to be a connection to the Kennedys.
I mean, it's tied to both, you know, Cold War fear,
but also any kind of mistrust in a medical examiner.
I mean, if you kind of go up the food chain,
what that really tells you is there is a mistrust
(09:29):
of the government. In the height of the Cold War,
the government was doing a lot of things they shouldn't
have been doing, right. You know, I don't think the
critique of the government, the mistrust of the government, I
don't think it's unfounded, but I think there's something about
the appetite for conspiracy increases. You know, there's tabloid journalism,
(09:52):
and I think it in many ways becomes a genre
of itself, a cultural kind of genre, touchstone in and
of itself. And I think each subsequent sort of time
period kind of reinvents those Oliver Stone reinvents it, right like,
so there, I mean, it has this ongoing, this ongoing effect.
(10:13):
And I also think, you know, people gravitate towards these
kinds of conspiracy theories oftentimes when you don't know what
to make of the world too, yeah, right, and you're
trying to understand the world and things are so unstable
in so many ways, and I think this makes conspiracy
theories really attractive.
Speaker 1 (10:38):
I've have two teenagers who consume True crime, and I've
asked them about RFK and of course Marilyn Monroe Manson,
and they all know the names, you know, both my kids.
They understand the names, they don't understand the conspiracy or
what actually happened, and they really don't know. Natalie would
so let's start with Marilyn Monroe and just give me
a little bit of a summary of who she was.
(11:01):
I would think that most of our audience is aware,
but maybe just get a little summary and then why
this would have been a conspiracy and what doctor Nuga
she found that led to some issues later on, like
discarded organs. So these conspiracies keep going and going.
Speaker 2 (11:17):
Marilyn Monroe, she was a movie star and when you
know her death happens, she is a woman, and you
know that is in her late thirties. And for Thomas
Negucci for death, he felt very deeply because they were
the same age. And also you know, she was described,
even at the height of her fame, as the most
(11:38):
beautiful woman in the world, but she also was deeply troubled.
And from the get go, I think if it had
been a straightforward autopsy, I think there might have been
less conspiracy around it. But the chief corner at the time,
this man named Theodor Kurfey, was really interested in death
(11:59):
by suicide and he wanted to really understand why people
chose to kill themselves, and so he gets involved with
a team of psychologists and he launches what's called a
psychological autopsy, and so basically it is this interviewing of
(12:20):
all of the decedent's friends, you know, to figure out
really what unfolded. And I think what happens is like
this time period is very different from ours in some ways.
Before like someone would launch like a psychological tool, it
would have to be vetted and tested, there be human
subject regards, so there'd be a lot of safeguards in place.
(12:43):
And in this time period, you know, he surprised everyone
by saying that this was what's going to happen. You know,
he suspected it was a suicide. Let's do the psychological
autopsy along with the physical autopsy. But the problem is
they're not careful. They don't really keep track of who
they're interviewed. Some really crucial people were not interviewed until
(13:04):
years after the fact. No, there was no particular protocol
or training, so it was all very haphazard. But Thomas
Nagucci does do the autopsy, and they decide, for example,
not to run all the necessary tests because of the
psychological autopsy. They have determined, right, they come to this
(13:27):
conclusion that indeed it is most likely a suicide, and
that was preemptive in a lot of ways. And then
because of that, you know, the toxicologist decides to dispose
of all the organs like that's something that would never
happen today, right, Like everything is sort of cataloged and
kept in tissue samples. But this is also happening in
(13:48):
the early sixties when forensic science is really being established,
so it's kind of this transition period. I think if
Marilyn Monroe had died a decade later, it would have
been quite different in terms of, you know, the protocols
and things around it. And then because those tissue samples
are not available, there is you know, a huge flurry
(14:10):
of conspiracy around that. And then I think the other
thing that and then Thomas Nagucci of course is tied
to it. But I think the other part is that
the public knew less about Marilyn Monroe. I think we
tend to have readers and people who consume true crime
(14:31):
today will tell me, oh, absolutely, it had to be
a conspiracy, right because you know, we knew all these
things about well, I'm like, actually, no, not in the
time period, we don't see the whole I call it
the tmzing of America, where we literally know everything, right,
we think we do, But we certainly have more access
(14:53):
to celebrity life, and I think there were lots of
things about Marilyn Monroe that people did not no. And
I think about her struggles with depression and mental illness
and her previous suicide attempts, right, and so but when
this unfolded, it was a real shock to a lot
of people without having that knowledge. And then of course
(15:16):
there's all the conjecture around her involvement with both JFK
and RFK, who are brutally assassinated in a very short
period of time, and then that adds to another layer
to all this.
Speaker 1 (15:31):
So right, there is the connection, and that's where I
think a lot of the conspiracy comes from. Again, you
went back to distrust of the government that you know,
the Kennedys are responsible one way or another for this?
Am I right in that when I don't think it was.
Nagucci was a Kurfey who looked and saw the high
levels of a couple of different kinds of drugs where
(15:53):
he kind of said, we don't need to go any further.
This would have killed her number one. But then Nagucci said,
I don't see pills in her stomach? Is that right?
Speaker 2 (16:02):
Is that that he doesn't see hills, particularly because a
substantial amount of time had passed before the automsy, so
that she had already ingested it. You know, later he
theorizes that because she was already habituated to these levels
of drugs that her body most likely absorbed them more quickly.
(16:23):
But I think the real issue is that curfe was
deeply invested in the psychological autopsy, and Thomas Negucci becomes
invested in it later as well in his career, and
in some ways Curfey creates this firewall around Nogucci, right,
like saying, you know, I'm not doing the autopsy even
(16:45):
though I'm the chief corner. I have this other person
doing it in my office. Again, I think it is
really about the fact that the public was so shocked
by her death and without this other knowledge about her,
that it seemed she was in the middle of a
comeback right for her career. This is what her friends
(17:08):
are saying. It's the idea that all these things can
be true. She could have made plans with friends, she
could have been in the middle of a career comeback
and she was striving for that. But she could also
have been an addict. And I think in conspiracy theories
that's very hard to hold. Conspiracy theories are almost always
(17:29):
sort of well, you know, it's a zero sum game, yeah,
like it has to be this, And I think that's
why this particular conspiracy theory continues.
Speaker 1 (17:41):
What about RFK And then I definitely also want to
talk about some of the lesser known stuff, the thing
that he had discovered that was the controversial part. And
tell me if I'm wrong about this is the direction
in which the bullet came and hit RFK, Right, And
I quite don't. I don't know if I understand what
the thinking there was with the conspiracy theory. So set
(18:01):
that up for me. Yeah, Robert Kennedy was a up
center MISSUS senator.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
Yeah, he was not going to run at the time,
but then he changes his mind and it becomes a
really big deal because he has this appeal for people
like as not just a politician but a person. Right.
It is also the legacy of the assassination of his brother.
It is at a moment of deep social unrest in
(18:27):
the US, and increasingly people who had felt quite hopeless
about politics and about the US and about the American
political system imbued him with all this kind of hope
and optimism. And when he is assassinated, the conspiracy theories
start almost immediately because of his brother's assassination, right, you know,
(18:51):
they are a political dynasty and if the US ever
had anything akin to royalty, it would be the Kennedy family, right,
but it just wasn't that. It was also in the
wake of the assassination of Malcolm X, So this is
a time of you know, real political unrest. But when
this happens, I think part of it is that there
(19:12):
were so many people who were so sure about what
they saw, right, because this happens, you know, in the
ambassador a hotel, it happens right in the in the kitchen.
There are eyewitnesses and that's the key here, And what
subsequent research has revealed is eyewitness accounts are really unreliable.
So these people were there, of course it must be true.
(19:34):
And you know it was always the issue what there
were second gunmen? Right? So is this some kind of plot?
Was you know, like who else is involved? It just
can't be sir Hunter and there has to be something
bigger involved. I think what's very clear though for Thomas
Nagucci is that, well you have to look at this
(19:54):
through not just eyewitness accounts, but also through science. He
dem streets very clearly that what had happened with the
bullet trajectories, there was no one that close, right, all
the eyewitnesses said, so there has to be another gunman, Sir,
answer him, wasn't that close to cause the kind of
injury and the bullet trajectories that RFK suffered. But then
(20:17):
you know, during the trial, Thomas Dagucchi demonstrates, if you
were standing here and if you were turning, indeed, this
is what could be the trajectories. But if you have
that kind of level of mistrust in the government, that
scientific explanation will not land. But what he is known
for though, because it was agreed on even at that
(20:41):
time that JFK's autopsy was largely botched because they did
not have forensic pathologists who did the autopsy, et cetera.
And so Thomas Noguchi was under a great deal of
pressure and he executed WHATEO will now call the perfect autopsy.
(21:03):
And he was also in his mind was also what
had happened with Marilyn Monroe's autopsy as well, and so
everything was saved like it was a six hour autopsy.
And the fact that I think that he was even
able to secure the autopsy prevented any additional speculation because
initially the Kennedy family didn't even want an autopsy because
(21:25):
they're like, we know exactly what killed him. He was shot, right,
and so he helps to convince the family. And then
part of it is also just logistics too. You know,
Nagucci is talking to his fellow you know, National Corner
colleagues and friends, and then he makes the decision and
I think this is pivotal not to move the body
(21:48):
to you know, the coroner's office to the Corner's suite
to do the autopsy. They actually set up an autopsy
suite in Good Samaritan Hospital to do the autotopsy, and
so that also shuts down a lot of potential conspiracy theories.
It is very straightforward for the family, right because you
(22:10):
can do the autopsy then release the body for burial.
And that he's pivotal to this. Well, you know, without
Thomas Negucci, there's a good chance there would be no
autopsy of RFK.
Speaker 1 (22:25):
So he learned from the scrutiny that came under him
on Marilyn Monroe to try to do did he keep
this up? Was he able to keep up the quote
unquote perfect autopsy? Like then, when we're talking about the
Manson family victims Lecher and Tate.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
It becomes part of his reputation, and you know, people
still talk about it today, like you know, if you
read contemporary work and forensic science, they point to the
autopsy of RFK as what sets right, This is kind
of the gold standard autopsy. But and this becomes really
important for Thomas Ningucci because this kind of otopsy becomes
(23:04):
these very very high standards, begins to undergird the legal system.
And remember, right for the Manson family murders, that the
charges brought against the various members there was no direct
evidence tying anyone in many of the instances of people
who were prosecuted, Charles Manson included, But it was really
(23:28):
the forensic evidence that led to conviction. The kind of
meticulous work that Thomas Negucci and you know, the rest
of the death investigation produced, you know, was the foundation
of these convictions. And this kind of forensic evidence will,
as time progresses, will become even more important. I don't
(23:50):
think Thomas Negucci was surprised at all, For example, when
DNA becomes, you know, so essential to this kind of
investigating work. I think people don't have always a good
grasp of how important forensic work is.
Speaker 1 (24:07):
Incredibly so he was born in Japan in nineteen twenty seven.
He's ninety eight. What are the years when he, you know,
really starts working. Maybe when he gets to LA and
is he retired. I'm assuming he has to be retired
at this point.
Speaker 2 (24:22):
Is he still attends medical conferences, he still does research,
He's still quite active. I just saw him a few
weeks ago. I took him a copy of the book.
I unfortunately did not make contact with him. He had
a very good firewall around him. But I met him
just by chance at my eye surgeon's office. I was
(24:47):
having eye surgery and my husband had taken me to
my appointment, and he heard Thomas Nagucci's name being called,
and he looked up and there he was. Immediately after
I had eye surgery, I'm in an I hatch and sweatpants,
and I'm meeting you know, doctor Nagucci and the person
who helps to take care of them. They invite me
for coffee. You know, when I tell him, you know,
(25:09):
I just finished a book about you, and and he's
been nothing, nothing but gracious. And you know he's kind
of having, you know, a moment. You know, there's a
documentary out about him. You know, he was in a musical, right,
his character like someone had based on some forensic work
he had done, and so plus my book, and so
it's kind of everything is about Thomas Dagucci at the moment.
(25:31):
But yeah, incredibly gracious. But his career, right, the height
of his career is really in the sixties and seventies.
But it's not easy. Nobody wanted a Japanese American corner.
In fact, the medical establishment in Los Angeles worked against him,
said he was not an acceptable person. My favorite thing
(25:56):
is that here the University of Southern California USC was
absolutely opposed to his appointment as corner because he would
not be qualified to teach at the medical school at USC.
But they did not realize that he was already teaching.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
But why would he not be qualified.
Speaker 2 (26:14):
Because they did not want someone of Japanese descent. You know,
when he starts his career in the sixties, you're not
even twenty years out from the incarceration of Japanese Americans.
And much of that anti Asian sentiment is just because
the war ends doesn't mean that sentiment disappears, and it
(26:36):
still has a ripple out effect today. And they were determined,
you know, the medical schools were determined that they wanted
one of their and it was always a guy. They
wanted their man in the office because the corner was,
you know, an influential person. But what saves Thomas Naguchi
and this is the thing, like I never knew that
(26:57):
the civil service was so exciting. He ultimately gets the
LA County Employees Association with thirty five thousand people behind him.
And it's not because they were racially progressive. They might
have been, I don't know, but there was no way
that they were going to have someone interfere with the
(27:18):
civil service process, which means, you know, taking an exam,
the person with the highest score is advanced for the position.
They understood very clearly, if you compromise the civil service system,
then that's the end of it. Later, though, you know,
it's not surprising he does get fired, and you know,
the motivations are clearly you know, political and racial. And
(27:42):
what happens, I think, which is amazing, is that the
Japanese American community mobilizes to rally that Thomas and Gucci
gets his position back. But they also establish these kind
of cross racial alliances in LA in the sixties, right,
they align with Mexican Americans, African Americans. You know, you
(28:04):
have people involved like Tom Bradley, you have Johnny Cochran involved,
you know, all before they're really famous. But the idea
that you know, people of color, you know, come together
because this is the thing people are so outraged because
government jobs were sort of the pathway to middle class
(28:26):
stability for people, and the perception is that these jobs
are fair, everyone abides by the same rules. This is
not like private industry or in la even in the sixties,
you know, people just couldn't live wherever they wanted. There
was you know, strict racial policing of where people lived
and country club like all these things. But people deeply
(28:51):
believe that county and federal and state employment was supposed
to be fair. And I think this becomes a real
rat point for people to establish these kinds of alliances.
And so he gets his job back.
Speaker 1 (29:06):
Well, did you ever get the impression from anything that
you looked at, Did you ever get the impression that
he had been pressured to change a finding or push
a finding that he maybe didn't believe it In one
of these high profile or low profile cases.
Speaker 2 (29:21):
I think definitely they would have liked him to be
less public, so he really transforms the Coroner's office. Never
in the history of the Corner's Office did the office
routinely have press conferences until Thomas Legucci becomes the chief corner.
And part of the reason that he does, especially when
he loses his job for the second time, is because
(29:44):
he can't be controlled, and anything negative about his approach
I think was ameliorated because he was very much he
thought of alcohol as something dangerous. Alcohol compromises people's judge
and can lead to all sorts of, you know, terrible
things happening. In fact, if I remember correctly, like a
(30:06):
year ago, the New York Times pointed out, wow, right,
like there now there are a lot of people who
think that there should be a warning on all alcohol
sold in the US that it's dangerous to your health.
What he does, though, is he was very quick to
point out, you know, like when William Holden died, he
died actually right because of a blow to the head,
but he also pointed out that it was because of
(30:28):
his drinking. He pointed out how much Natalie Wood had
to drink. And this makes people so mad because these
are not supposed to be things that you talked about.
But he was not willing to compromise this. He's like,
this is science, right, this compromise you know, even if
you're famous, this compromises your your judgment. I was so
surprised when I found it in the archive. But he
(30:50):
made Frank Sinatra so mad that Frank Sinatra had a
hand delivered note to the Board of Supervisors. Here right,
ran Ellie Kenny complaining about Thomas Nugoe. Something had to
be done because he had pointed out that Natalie Wood
had consumed so much alcohol, which certainly compromised, right, her
(31:11):
judgment and contributed to, you know, most likely contributed to
her drowning. And then he enrages the screen actors' guild.
I think a lot of it is that he was
very clear that the coroner's office was independent, and that
doesn't win him a lot of friends at times.
Speaker 1 (31:30):
And if you're looking at somebody like Natalie Wood, who
again just as a reminder of people who like my kids,
who don't know who that is, you know, famous actress
married to Robert Wagner, boy, I talk about a conspiracy,
a story that can go down conspiracy lane. They're arguing,
you know, her husband is arguing with Christopher walken over
presumably Natalie Wood. She ends up in the water. And
(31:52):
I was telling you this before. I had just read
an article I think it was in January that were
quotes from your book saying the title literally was like
Natalie Wood would not have died had she not been
wearing that red parka per La corner. And I just thought,
this woman, who I don't think most people know, is
still making headlines in a major newspaper. And it is
(32:16):
the conspiracy part. It absolutely, You've got these three stars.
You know, she has a hard marriage with Robert Wagner,
and then this is what ends up happening. And so
that was amazing that he's making headlines decades and decades
later on this kind of thing.
Speaker 2 (32:31):
Yeah, it is. But I think ultimately Thomas Nakichi does
lose his job for a second time, and he is
unable to get his teeth not reappointed, and you know,
because lots of things have changed, she doesn't have the
same kind of community support. His office also had suffered
from significant underfunding and mismanagement. He also is beguiled by
(32:56):
the media. He you know, engages I think Hubri swins
out at times, and in some ways he loses track
of the science, and I think when he kind of
loses that touchstone or that compass, right, things don't go
well for him. But I think what's amazing, though, is
(33:16):
that losing his job then dramatically changes his career, and
I think it serves his better nature. He works at
you know, USC County General. He ultimately becomes the chief pathologist,
but he winds up educating several generations of forensic pathologists.
(33:37):
He turns to research and teaching, and what's amazing is
that he retires in nineteen ninety nine. In his career
right is just marked with all kinds of strife and conflict,
you know, with the county, and just some really terrible
things had happened. And then but he is so changed
(33:59):
by teaching and doing research that he's able to say
in nineteen ninety nine that working for the county has
been the best thing that ever happened, Like he loved
every minute of it. I think that's why for me,
the story was so compelling to tell, because no one
wants to write like a true kind biography of like
(34:20):
I don't know someone who does all the right things
that that would be like ten pages, and that would
be the end. But like, because he's so human, he
makes mistakes. You know, when I was working, you know,
in the archives or interviewing people, I'm like, oh, no,
don't say that, don't do that, don't do that, and
then he does it. I think readers in general, but
Asian American readers, you know, deserve these kinds of stories
(34:43):
of you know, failure and redemption and how to reinvent
yourself and that things aren't always easy. And then also
like Asian American folks were part of the cultural narrative
as well, and I think that's what Thomas Magucci's stor
kind of restores to this kind of historical moment.
Speaker 1 (35:05):
I interviewed a woman who wrote a book about the
rape kit, the first conception of the rape kit, which
was done by a woman, but it was named after
a man because they knew that in that time period,
which I think was early seventies, that that was going
to make it more successful. And so I was thinking
about that when you were talking. You know, when he's
(35:26):
working in the sixties and the seventies and in the eighties,
how much of the doubt the conspiracy theories around like
an RFK or Marilyn Monroe. How much that really did
come down to, you know, he being Japanese American. Was
it connected specifically to that, or is it this guy
works for the county. The county's the government, and everybody
(35:48):
has a stake in killing this person off.
Speaker 2 (35:50):
I think it's both. I think there's definitely the mistrust
of the government as always, and sometimes the government also
kind of stoked these kind of stereotypes that Asian Americans,
but Japanese in particular, were not trustworthy, could not be
relied on. I mean, these are stereotypes that have existed,
you know, for a very long time. The one that
(36:12):
came up right, because being a corner is sort of ghoulish, right,
I mean, you're working with the dead, and I think
there were more kind of social prohibitions around it in
the sixties and seventies. But at various times people would
question Thomas Lagucci's objectivity right as a scientist and as
a pathologist, because the idea that Asian Americans, Japanese Americans
(36:37):
were bloodthirsty and monstrous. I mean, these stereotypes emerged over
and over when people were talking about Thomas Lagucci. He
can't escape that and I think it was surprising for
him because you know, he was a Japanese immigrant. He
came after the war. He was part of that new
migration of immigrants called the shiny Si that included students
(37:01):
and war brides. And you know, he was not incarcerated
during the war, but his wife was. And he thought somehow,
I think because he was a very good student, he
worked very hard that he would be exempt from this
kind of racial vitriol, but he wasn't. And I think
that really has, you know, a deep impact on him
(37:25):
and how he understands his place in the world. And
it certainly impacted right the shape and trajectory of his career.
And if you also even just kind of look at
the early history of pathology it as a medical discipline,
you know, it's not surprising if you look in the
fifties and sixties, Right, this was supposed to be a
(37:47):
time where we've won the war, right, Like it's supposed
to be this golden flowering of technology. But who's tracked
into pathology more so than any other group. It's primarily
physicians of color because they would never work with the living.
Speaker 1 (38:04):
What's the case or cases we maybe have never heard
of that you just thought when you read about him,
you just thought, what, this guy is smart. I mean,
this was clever what he did. Can you think of those?
Speaker 2 (38:15):
Yeah, I think the one that really stuck with me
is Leonard Deadweiler, which happens very early for him in
sixty six. And Leonard Deadweiler is he's this young man
who he thinks his wife is going into labor and
she feels like she's going into labor. And they are
driving to USC County General. They need a general hospital
(38:40):
and they're leaving South Los Angeles because there is no
hospital there. They're a black couple who have migrated from
the South and he's speeding and he gets pulled over
and an officer approaches them. It's not exactly one hundred
percent clear what has happened, but he shot to death
(39:01):
and he dies in his wife's arms. The dead Weiler case,
in particular, for Thomas Nogucci, right, like, the forensic work
is pretty straightforward, right like, oh, you know the person,
you know, it's horrible if he died of a gunshotmound
and right, and he testifies to this fact, but it
opens his eyes to the fact that science can't explain
(39:23):
everything about the legal system and about justice, and that
this influences him deeply. You know, he wants to know
why then so many black and brown men in Los
Angeles are being shot by the police. Right, and this
is in the nineteen sixties, before Rodney King. This is
right before you know what shapes most of our ideas
(39:47):
about police violence. Right start much much earlier, and he
works on you know, various tasks, courses, you know, to
bring attention, and then later he'll be involved also around
the use of the chokehold. So you see all these
things that are kind of laid out before these kind
of really big historic moments that we'll see, you know what.
(40:07):
Like Robey King, it makes clear for him that while
science has to be central to death investigation, but there's
also these other things that you know, are not measured
so easily. And this really kind of has, you know,
an impact on him.
Speaker 1 (40:28):
I wrote a book about a forensic scientist who worked
in the nineteen twenties, and he between probably nineteen fifteen
and nineteen fifty three when he died, he had resolved
more than two thousand cases. And I had read, i mean,
just thousands of his personal letters to colleagues and all
of that, and the one thing that struck me, and
(40:49):
this is what I wonder about Thomas Nagucci. The one
thing that struck me about Oscar Heinrich was what I
never read ever in any of his letters, was I
might have been I don't know if this was the
right technique to use. I'm not sure if this technique
was right, or oh my gosh, they just came out
with something brand new about blood stain powdern analysis that
(41:10):
I didn't have back then. Maybe I was wrong about
the David Lambsome case never and I always was disappointed.
And instead of me framing that as overly confident or
you know, somebody who who has a lot of confidence
in his work in the book, I basically said, this
is arrogance. You cannot say you haven't made a mistake.
In two thousand cases, he has certainly sent people to
(41:31):
death row. And I'm assuming to you know, at the time,
would have been maybe the electric chair on bad evidence
that he created.
Speaker 2 (41:38):
I think he had less hubris in the early part
of his career, but at kind of the height of
it in the seventies. He's a celebrity in Los Angeles,
and that's no small thing. The Society page notes that
he was at like a department store shopping for a suit.
He is like a person in la and he's competing
with Hollywood stars, right Like, so he's a big where
(42:01):
his work becomes compromises when he leaves his track of
the science number one. The other part too, is that
he's not a super good manager. The chief corner has,
you know, responsibility for all the science, the research, all that,
but also the day to day running of the county office,
like how many staplers do we need to buy? And
(42:21):
that kind of management. Eventually the job will be split
into two down down the road, you know, well after
Thomas de Gucci leaves the office. But I think what
is very interesting though he takes his cues, I think
very much at least he thinks of Theodore Kurfey as
a mentor, and Theodore Curfy is part of that. No apologies,
(42:45):
it's just the way he worked. And there are definitely
times when Thomas Negucci makes mistakes, and sometimes it is
because of mismanagement of the office. Sometimes it's because of
not having complete evidence, right, So they're are mistakes that
are being made. But what he recognizes very early is
(43:07):
that in terms of the publicity around it, that people
have very very short attention spans, and his mistakes are
never I think, egregious enough to jeopardize legal proceedings, and
he doesn't really stray from there. But the thing is,
(43:30):
like it's hindsight as well, like who doesn't make mistakes?
Being the corner was very hard fought and hard won
for him, and there was no way he was going
to give anything to his detractors, write any ammunition. But
what does ultimately, you know, unravel his career is an
(43:50):
investigative journalist at the La Times. He starts investigating him
and brings all these things to light.
Speaker 1 (44:08):
If you love historical true crime stories, check out the
audio versions of my books The Sinners, All Bow, The
Ghost Club, All That Is Wicked, and American Sherlock and
Don't Forget. There are twelve seasons of my historical true
crime podcast, Tenfold More Wicked right here in this podcast feed,
scroll back and give them a listen if you haven't already.
(44:28):
This has been an exactly right production. Our senior producer
is Alexis a Morosi. Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain.
This episode was mixed by John Bradley Curtis Heath is
our composer. Artwork by Nick Toga, Executive produced by Georgia Hardstark,
Karen Kilgarriff and Danielle Kramer. Follow Wicked Words on Instagram
(44:50):
and Facebook at tenfold more Wicked and on Twitter at
tenfold more and if you know of a historical crime
that could use some attention from the crew at tenfold
more Wicked, email thanks at info at tenfoldmore wicked dot com.
We'll also take your suggestions for true crime authors for
Wicked Words
This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
It was really the forensic evidence that led to conviction,
the kind of meticulous work that Thomas Nabucci produced.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor
in Austin, Texas. I'm also the co host of the
podcast Buried Bones on Exactly Right, and throughout my career,
research for my many audio and book projects has taken
me around the world. On Wicked Words, I sit down
with the people I've met along the way, amazing writers, journalists, filmmakers,
(00:50):
and podcasters who have investigated and reported on notorious true
crime cases. This is about the choices writers make, both
good and bad, and it's a deep dive into the
unpublished details behind their stories. When you write a biography
about a man dubbed Corner to the Stars, it's bound
(01:10):
to be a compelling story. Who doesn't want to read
about the coroner who performed the autopsies on Marilyn Monroe
RFK and Natalie Wood author and soon Choi tells me
about her book La Corner. I have never read a title,
a review, or an article that I felt was so
(01:32):
fascinating where they describe the subject of your book as
a controversial corner, which I've never put those two words together.
So I guess this is a great way to introduce him.
Tell me about doctor Thomas Noguchi, you know, start wherever
you think it makes sense.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
Well, he was the first Asian American chief corner of
one of the biggest jurisdictions in the country, Los Angeles County.
You know, I always call him the og inflow answer, like,
he was the master of the media, how to use
the press, how he knew what a SoundBite was before
(02:09):
sound bites. He had this real instinct for self promotion
at a time when we're first seeing that emerge. I mean,
his early career especially parallels the emergence of both television
and television news, but particularly tabloid news, and I think
(02:31):
it goes hand in hand. And his career also mirrors
the post war fascination with death investigation and psychology. And
I think without Thomas Negucci, you wouldn't have, for example,
the entire CSI franchise. If there's any TV procedural that
(02:55):
includes a corner, that's Thomas Negucci's influence. In particular, his
sort of emergence in this time period in southern California
was also a larger conversation about race. You know, where
Japanese Americans after World War Two were going to fit
(03:17):
into the racial and social landscape. And you know the
fact that Thomas Nagucchi did not have a smooth career
like within LA County, and because he took his role
seriously as the corner and demanded that his office be independent,
(03:38):
he was not easily controlled by political interests. But at
the same time he was really invested in making the
corner's office as important and visible as the DA's office.
And so it is a real shift and also the
(04:01):
rise of the corner as this really kind of important
figure is tied into and particularly the corner in LA
the model is the corner medical Examiner, and that is
kind of rooted in post war science. The historical landscape
is really complicated. But also at the same time, you
layer celebrity over this because this is Los Angeles. And
(04:25):
what I think is really fascinating is that Thomas Nagucci
was not immune. And you know, he becomes at first
celebrity adjacent by being the person who autopsies very famous
people including Marilyn Monroe, Robert Kennedy, you know, and the
list goes on. He's involved in the tape La Bianca murders,
(04:46):
and so he becomes famous himself. And I think it
is only in La after World War Two can a
corner become a celebrity. And he really predates all these
people who go on to have these careers commenting on
whether they are paid experts in various lawsuits and legal proceedings.
(05:11):
But also there's so many of these shows now that really,
you know, follow death investigation, both fictionalized and not. And
I think he was really critical. But at the same time,
it's really strange because he disappears from the historical narrative
like in the eighties. I was really fascinated that, like
his entire story was right there in plain sight in
(05:34):
terms of all the historical records, interviews, and so that
was also really interesting to sort of see.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
Well, I'll tell you a side note. My other show,
Buried Bones. I'm with a forensic investigator, Poll Holes, and
he says it was quincymy who inspired him to go
into forensics, and doctor Noguchi is the inspiration for Quincy, right.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
He is the inspiration and unfortun fortunately in Quincy Evy,
the Japanese American character is relegated to a sidekick character,
with Robert do playing the support role for Jack Lugman.
But doctor Nigucci was friends with Jack Plugman. It was
something that he valued and you know, was very public
(06:19):
about and I think he got a real kick out
of being sort of the inspiration for the show.
Speaker 1 (06:26):
One of the things that you and I had talked
about before we started the interview was the conspiracy theory.
You can tell me if he resolves these successfully for
the conspiracy fans, but he's involved with RFK, Marilyn Monroe,
Manson Family, Natalie would all of these conspiracies that people
(06:47):
latch onto, I know, particularly with Marilyn Monroe and RFK.
Is that typical for a medical examiner, let's say in
New York, which might have the same amount of celebrity
or was it just bad luck on his part? Was
he able to climb out of these conspiracies that were
surrounding him.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
I think he's forever tied to these conspiracy theories, and
in fact, you know, he in an interview talks about
sort of the recurring thought that he has that like
after he autopsies Marilyn Monroe and gets embroiled in that
for decades. Maybe they're going to come after him as
the killer. It's something that generates, I think, a certain
(07:27):
heaviness for him, but he is determined, not necessarily to
feed into it, but he's very resolute about sticking to
the science, and I think that sort of is his
guide post. But he's also not above capitalizing on it
for his career and his sort of public persona. He
(07:50):
freely uses, you know, the phrase the coroner to the stars,
like I think in that context, you know, you can't
pick and choose, you take all of it. And so
by being associated with celebrity and becoming a celebrity, then
he's tied to these things. And I think this time
period also like the time period wherein now conspiracy theories,
(08:14):
you know, tied to the Cold War. Conspiracies come about
when people are frightened, when people don't have accurate information,
and there are definitely stark parallels in this time period
to what is happening now. But the really interesting thing
is that these conspiracies don't go away. I mean, this
(08:34):
is why for example, people aren't you know, they just
release a bunch of papers around Martin Luther King, and
you know, they recently released additional papers from the JFK case,
and so they have an ongoing hold on American culture
in various ways. Thomas Mgucci is tied to these things.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
For better or worse. Was there credibility with these conspiracy theorists?
Were they just convinced that he was under somebody's thumb
in the instance of let's say Marilyn Monroe.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
Yeah, right. You know, there were a lot of people
immediately who felt like this was a cover up, and
then there had to be a connection to the Kennedys.
I mean, it's tied to both, you know, Cold War fear,
but also any kind of mistrust in a medical examiner.
I mean, if you kind of go up the food chain,
what that really tells you is there is a mistrust
(09:29):
of the government. In the height of the Cold War,
the government was doing a lot of things they shouldn't
have been doing, right. You know, I don't think the
critique of the government, the mistrust of the government, I
don't think it's unfounded, but I think there's something about
the appetite for conspiracy increases. You know, there's tabloid journalism,
(09:52):
and I think it in many ways becomes a genre
of itself, a cultural kind of genre, touchstone in and
of itself. And I think each subsequent sort of time
period kind of reinvents those Oliver Stone reinvents it, right like,
so there, I mean, it has this ongoing, this ongoing effect.
(10:13):
And I also think, you know, people gravitate towards these
kinds of conspiracy theories oftentimes when you don't know what
to make of the world too, yeah, right, and you're
trying to understand the world and things are so unstable
in so many ways, and I think this makes conspiracy
theories really attractive.
Speaker 1 (10:38):
I've have two teenagers who consume True crime, and I've
asked them about RFK and of course Marilyn Monroe Manson,
and they all know the names, you know, both my kids.
They understand the names, they don't understand the conspiracy or
what actually happened, and they really don't know. Natalie would
so let's start with Marilyn Monroe and just give me
a little bit of a summary of who she was.
(11:01):
I would think that most of our audience is aware,
but maybe just get a little summary and then why
this would have been a conspiracy and what doctor Nuga
she found that led to some issues later on, like
discarded organs. So these conspiracies keep going and going.
Speaker 2 (11:17):
Marilyn Monroe, she was a movie star and when you
know her death happens, she is a woman, and you
know that is in her late thirties. And for Thomas
Negucci for death, he felt very deeply because they were
the same age. And also you know, she was described,
even at the height of her fame, as the most
(11:38):
beautiful woman in the world, but she also was deeply troubled.
And from the get go, I think if it had
been a straightforward autopsy, I think there might have been
less conspiracy around it. But the chief corner at the time,
this man named Theodor Kurfey, was really interested in death
(11:59):
by suicide and he wanted to really understand why people
chose to kill themselves, and so he gets involved with
a team of psychologists and he launches what's called a
psychological autopsy, and so basically it is this interviewing of
(12:20):
all of the decedent's friends, you know, to figure out
really what unfolded. And I think what happens is like
this time period is very different from ours in some ways.
Before like someone would launch like a psychological tool, it
would have to be vetted and tested, there be human
subject regards, so there'd be a lot of safeguards in place.
(12:43):
And in this time period, you know, he surprised everyone
by saying that this was what's going to happen. You know,
he suspected it was a suicide. Let's do the psychological
autopsy along with the physical autopsy. But the problem is
they're not careful. They don't really keep track of who
they're interviewed. Some really crucial people were not interviewed until
(13:04):
years after the fact. No, there was no particular protocol
or training, so it was all very haphazard. But Thomas
Nagucci does do the autopsy, and they decide, for example,
not to run all the necessary tests because of the
psychological autopsy. They have determined, right, they come to this
(13:27):
conclusion that indeed it is most likely a suicide, and
that was preemptive in a lot of ways. And then
because of that, you know, the toxicologist decides to dispose
of all the organs like that's something that would never
happen today, right, Like everything is sort of cataloged and
kept in tissue samples. But this is also happening in
(13:48):
the early sixties when forensic science is really being established,
so it's kind of this transition period. I think if
Marilyn Monroe had died a decade later, it would have
been quite different in terms of, you know, the protocols
and things around it. And then because those tissue samples
are not available, there is you know, a huge flurry
(14:10):
of conspiracy around that. And then I think the other
thing that and then Thomas Nagucci of course is tied
to it. But I think the other part is that
the public knew less about Marilyn Monroe. I think we
tend to have readers and people who consume true crime
(14:31):
today will tell me, oh, absolutely, it had to be
a conspiracy, right because you know, we knew all these
things about well, I'm like, actually, no, not in the
time period, we don't see the whole I call it
the tmzing of America, where we literally know everything, right,
we think we do, But we certainly have more access
(14:53):
to celebrity life, and I think there were lots of
things about Marilyn Monroe that people did not no. And
I think about her struggles with depression and mental illness
and her previous suicide attempts, right, and so but when
this unfolded, it was a real shock to a lot
of people without having that knowledge. And then of course
(15:16):
there's all the conjecture around her involvement with both JFK
and RFK, who are brutally assassinated in a very short
period of time, and then that adds to another layer
to all this.
Speaker 1 (15:31):
So right, there is the connection, and that's where I
think a lot of the conspiracy comes from. Again, you
went back to distrust of the government that you know,
the Kennedys are responsible one way or another for this?
Am I right in that when I don't think it was.
Nagucci was a Kurfey who looked and saw the high
levels of a couple of different kinds of drugs where
(15:53):
he kind of said, we don't need to go any further.
This would have killed her number one. But then Nagucci said,
I don't see pills in her stomach? Is that right?
Speaker 2 (16:02):
Is that that he doesn't see hills, particularly because a
substantial amount of time had passed before the automsy, so
that she had already ingested it. You know, later he
theorizes that because she was already habituated to these levels
of drugs that her body most likely absorbed them more quickly.
(16:23):
But I think the real issue is that curfe was
deeply invested in the psychological autopsy, and Thomas Negucci becomes
invested in it later as well in his career, and
in some ways Curfey creates this firewall around Nogucci, right,
like saying, you know, I'm not doing the autopsy even
(16:45):
though I'm the chief corner. I have this other person
doing it in my office. Again, I think it is
really about the fact that the public was so shocked
by her death and without this other knowledge about her,
that it seemed she was in the middle of a
comeback right for her career. This is what her friends
(17:08):
are saying. It's the idea that all these things can
be true. She could have made plans with friends, she
could have been in the middle of a career comeback
and she was striving for that. But she could also
have been an addict. And I think in conspiracy theories
that's very hard to hold. Conspiracy theories are almost always
(17:29):
sort of well, you know, it's a zero sum game, yeah,
like it has to be this, And I think that's
why this particular conspiracy theory continues.
Speaker 1 (17:41):
What about RFK And then I definitely also want to
talk about some of the lesser known stuff, the thing
that he had discovered that was the controversial part. And
tell me if I'm wrong about this is the direction
in which the bullet came and hit RFK, Right, And
I quite don't. I don't know if I understand what
the thinking there was with the conspiracy theory. So set
(18:01):
that up for me. Yeah, Robert Kennedy was a up
center MISSUS senator.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
Yeah, he was not going to run at the time,
but then he changes his mind and it becomes a
really big deal because he has this appeal for people
like as not just a politician but a person. Right.
It is also the legacy of the assassination of his brother.
It is at a moment of deep social unrest in
(18:27):
the US, and increasingly people who had felt quite hopeless
about politics and about the US and about the American
political system imbued him with all this kind of hope
and optimism. And when he is assassinated, the conspiracy theories
start almost immediately because of his brother's assassination, right, you know,
(18:51):
they are a political dynasty and if the US ever
had anything akin to royalty, it would be the Kennedy family, right,
but it just wasn't that. It was also in the
wake of the assassination of Malcolm X, So this is
a time of you know, real political unrest. But when
this happens, I think part of it is that there
(19:12):
were so many people who were so sure about what
they saw, right, because this happens, you know, in the
ambassador a hotel, it happens right in the in the kitchen.
There are eyewitnesses and that's the key here, And what
subsequent research has revealed is eyewitness accounts are really unreliable.
So these people were there, of course it must be true.
(19:34):
And you know it was always the issue what there
were second gunmen? Right? So is this some kind of plot?
Was you know, like who else is involved? It just
can't be sir Hunter and there has to be something
bigger involved. I think what's very clear though for Thomas
Nagucci is that, well you have to look at this
(19:54):
through not just eyewitness accounts, but also through science. He
dem streets very clearly that what had happened with the
bullet trajectories, there was no one that close, right, all
the eyewitnesses said, so there has to be another gunman, Sir,
answer him, wasn't that close to cause the kind of
injury and the bullet trajectories that RFK suffered. But then
(20:17):
you know, during the trial, Thomas Dagucchi demonstrates, if you
were standing here and if you were turning, indeed, this
is what could be the trajectories. But if you have
that kind of level of mistrust in the government, that
scientific explanation will not land. But what he is known
for though, because it was agreed on even at that
(20:41):
time that JFK's autopsy was largely botched because they did
not have forensic pathologists who did the autopsy, et cetera.
And so Thomas Noguchi was under a great deal of
pressure and he executed WHATEO will now call the perfect autopsy.
(21:03):
And he was also in his mind was also what
had happened with Marilyn Monroe's autopsy as well, and so
everything was saved like it was a six hour autopsy.
And the fact that I think that he was even
able to secure the autopsy prevented any additional speculation because
initially the Kennedy family didn't even want an autopsy because
(21:25):
they're like, we know exactly what killed him. He was shot, right,
and so he helps to convince the family. And then
part of it is also just logistics too. You know,
Nagucci is talking to his fellow you know, National Corner
colleagues and friends, and then he makes the decision and
I think this is pivotal not to move the body
(21:48):
to you know, the coroner's office to the Corner's suite
to do the autopsy. They actually set up an autopsy
suite in Good Samaritan Hospital to do the autotopsy, and
so that also shuts down a lot of potential conspiracy theories.
It is very straightforward for the family, right because you
(22:10):
can do the autopsy then release the body for burial.
And that he's pivotal to this. Well, you know, without
Thomas Negucci, there's a good chance there would be no
autopsy of RFK.
Speaker 1 (22:25):
So he learned from the scrutiny that came under him
on Marilyn Monroe to try to do did he keep
this up? Was he able to keep up the quote
unquote perfect autopsy? Like then, when we're talking about the
Manson family victims Lecher and Tate.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
It becomes part of his reputation, and you know, people
still talk about it today, like you know, if you
read contemporary work and forensic science, they point to the
autopsy of RFK as what sets right, This is kind
of the gold standard autopsy. But and this becomes really
important for Thomas Ningucci because this kind of otopsy becomes
(23:04):
these very very high standards, begins to undergird the legal system.
And remember, right for the Manson family murders, that the
charges brought against the various members there was no direct
evidence tying anyone in many of the instances of people
who were prosecuted, Charles Manson included, But it was really
(23:28):
the forensic evidence that led to conviction. The kind of
meticulous work that Thomas Negucci and you know, the rest
of the death investigation produced, you know, was the foundation
of these convictions. And this kind of forensic evidence will,
as time progresses, will become even more important. I don't
(23:50):
think Thomas Negucci was surprised at all, For example, when
DNA becomes, you know, so essential to this kind of
investigating work. I think people don't have always a good
grasp of how important forensic work is.
Speaker 1 (24:07):
Incredibly so he was born in Japan in nineteen twenty seven.
He's ninety eight. What are the years when he, you know,
really starts working. Maybe when he gets to LA and
is he retired. I'm assuming he has to be retired
at this point.
Speaker 2 (24:22):
Is he still attends medical conferences, he still does research,
He's still quite active. I just saw him a few
weeks ago. I took him a copy of the book.
I unfortunately did not make contact with him. He had
a very good firewall around him. But I met him
just by chance at my eye surgeon's office. I was
(24:47):
having eye surgery and my husband had taken me to
my appointment, and he heard Thomas Nagucci's name being called,
and he looked up and there he was. Immediately after
I had eye surgery, I'm in an I hatch and sweatpants,
and I'm meeting you know, doctor Nagucci and the person
who helps to take care of them. They invite me
for coffee. You know, when I tell him, you know,
(25:09):
I just finished a book about you, and and he's
been nothing, nothing but gracious. And you know he's kind
of having, you know, a moment. You know, there's a
documentary out about him. You know, he was in a musical, right,
his character like someone had based on some forensic work
he had done, and so plus my book, and so
it's kind of everything is about Thomas Dagucci at the moment.
(25:31):
But yeah, incredibly gracious. But his career, right, the height
of his career is really in the sixties and seventies.
But it's not easy. Nobody wanted a Japanese American corner.
In fact, the medical establishment in Los Angeles worked against him,
said he was not an acceptable person. My favorite thing
(25:56):
is that here the University of Southern California USC was
absolutely opposed to his appointment as corner because he would
not be qualified to teach at the medical school at USC.
But they did not realize that he was already teaching.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
But why would he not be qualified.
Speaker 2 (26:14):
Because they did not want someone of Japanese descent. You know,
when he starts his career in the sixties, you're not
even twenty years out from the incarceration of Japanese Americans.
And much of that anti Asian sentiment is just because
the war ends doesn't mean that sentiment disappears, and it
(26:36):
still has a ripple out effect today. And they were determined,
you know, the medical schools were determined that they wanted
one of their and it was always a guy. They
wanted their man in the office because the corner was,
you know, an influential person. But what saves Thomas Naguchi
and this is the thing, like I never knew that
(26:57):
the civil service was so exciting. He ultimately gets the
LA County Employees Association with thirty five thousand people behind him.
And it's not because they were racially progressive. They might
have been, I don't know, but there was no way
that they were going to have someone interfere with the
(27:18):
civil service process, which means, you know, taking an exam,
the person with the highest score is advanced for the position.
They understood very clearly, if you compromise the civil service system,
then that's the end of it. Later, though, you know,
it's not surprising he does get fired, and you know,
the motivations are clearly you know, political and racial. And
(27:42):
what happens, I think, which is amazing, is that the
Japanese American community mobilizes to rally that Thomas and Gucci
gets his position back. But they also establish these kind
of cross racial alliances in LA in the sixties, right,
they align with Mexican Americans, African Americans. You know, you
(28:04):
have people involved like Tom Bradley, you have Johnny Cochran involved,
you know, all before they're really famous. But the idea
that you know, people of color, you know, come together
because this is the thing people are so outraged because
government jobs were sort of the pathway to middle class
(28:26):
stability for people, and the perception is that these jobs
are fair, everyone abides by the same rules. This is
not like private industry or in la even in the sixties,
you know, people just couldn't live wherever they wanted. There
was you know, strict racial policing of where people lived
and country club like all these things. But people deeply
(28:51):
believe that county and federal and state employment was supposed
to be fair. And I think this becomes a real
rat point for people to establish these kinds of alliances.
And so he gets his job back.
Speaker 1 (29:06):
Well, did you ever get the impression from anything that
you looked at, Did you ever get the impression that
he had been pressured to change a finding or push
a finding that he maybe didn't believe it In one
of these high profile or low profile cases.
Speaker 2 (29:21):
I think definitely they would have liked him to be
less public, so he really transforms the Coroner's office. Never
in the history of the Corner's Office did the office
routinely have press conferences until Thomas Legucci becomes the chief corner.
And part of the reason that he does, especially when
he loses his job for the second time, is because
(29:44):
he can't be controlled, and anything negative about his approach
I think was ameliorated because he was very much he
thought of alcohol as something dangerous. Alcohol compromises people's judge
and can lead to all sorts of, you know, terrible
things happening. In fact, if I remember correctly, like a
(30:06):
year ago, the New York Times pointed out, wow, right,
like there now there are a lot of people who
think that there should be a warning on all alcohol
sold in the US that it's dangerous to your health.
What he does, though, is he was very quick to
point out, you know, like when William Holden died, he
died actually right because of a blow to the head,
but he also pointed out that it was because of
(30:28):
his drinking. He pointed out how much Natalie Wood had
to drink. And this makes people so mad because these
are not supposed to be things that you talked about.
But he was not willing to compromise this. He's like,
this is science, right, this compromise you know, even if
you're famous, this compromises your your judgment. I was so
surprised when I found it in the archive. But he
(30:50):
made Frank Sinatra so mad that Frank Sinatra had a
hand delivered note to the Board of Supervisors. Here right,
ran Ellie Kenny complaining about Thomas Nugoe. Something had to
be done because he had pointed out that Natalie Wood
had consumed so much alcohol, which certainly compromised, right, her
(31:11):
judgment and contributed to, you know, most likely contributed to
her drowning. And then he enrages the screen actors' guild.
I think a lot of it is that he was
very clear that the coroner's office was independent, and that
doesn't win him a lot of friends at times.
Speaker 1 (31:30):
And if you're looking at somebody like Natalie Wood, who
again just as a reminder of people who like my kids,
who don't know who that is, you know, famous actress
married to Robert Wagner, boy, I talk about a conspiracy,
a story that can go down conspiracy lane. They're arguing,
you know, her husband is arguing with Christopher walken over
presumably Natalie Wood. She ends up in the water. And
(31:52):
I was telling you this before. I had just read
an article I think it was in January that were
quotes from your book saying the title literally was like
Natalie Wood would not have died had she not been
wearing that red parka per La corner. And I just thought,
this woman, who I don't think most people know, is
still making headlines in a major newspaper. And it is
(32:16):
the conspiracy part. It absolutely, You've got these three stars.
You know, she has a hard marriage with Robert Wagner,
and then this is what ends up happening. And so
that was amazing that he's making headlines decades and decades
later on this kind of thing.
Speaker 2 (32:31):
Yeah, it is. But I think ultimately Thomas Nakichi does
lose his job for a second time, and he is
unable to get his teeth not reappointed, and you know,
because lots of things have changed, she doesn't have the
same kind of community support. His office also had suffered
from significant underfunding and mismanagement. He also is beguiled by
(32:56):
the media. He you know, engages I think Hubri swins
out at times, and in some ways he loses track
of the science, and I think when he kind of
loses that touchstone or that compass, right, things don't go
well for him. But I think what's amazing, though, is
(33:16):
that losing his job then dramatically changes his career, and
I think it serves his better nature. He works at
you know, USC County General. He ultimately becomes the chief pathologist,
but he winds up educating several generations of forensic pathologists.
(33:37):
He turns to research and teaching, and what's amazing is
that he retires in nineteen ninety nine. In his career
right is just marked with all kinds of strife and conflict,
you know, with the county, and just some really terrible
things had happened. And then but he is so changed
(33:59):
by teaching and doing research that he's able to say
in nineteen ninety nine that working for the county has
been the best thing that ever happened, Like he loved
every minute of it. I think that's why for me,
the story was so compelling to tell, because no one
wants to write like a true kind biography of like
(34:20):
I don't know someone who does all the right things
that that would be like ten pages, and that would
be the end. But like, because he's so human, he
makes mistakes. You know, when I was working, you know,
in the archives or interviewing people, I'm like, oh, no,
don't say that, don't do that, don't do that, and
then he does it. I think readers in general, but
Asian American readers, you know, deserve these kinds of stories
(34:43):
of you know, failure and redemption and how to reinvent
yourself and that things aren't always easy. And then also
like Asian American folks were part of the cultural narrative
as well, and I think that's what Thomas Magucci's stor
kind of restores to this kind of historical moment.
Speaker 1 (35:05):
I interviewed a woman who wrote a book about the
rape kit, the first conception of the rape kit, which
was done by a woman, but it was named after
a man because they knew that in that time period,
which I think was early seventies, that that was going
to make it more successful. And so I was thinking
about that when you were talking. You know, when he's
(35:26):
working in the sixties and the seventies and in the eighties,
how much of the doubt the conspiracy theories around like
an RFK or Marilyn Monroe. How much that really did
come down to, you know, he being Japanese American. Was
it connected specifically to that, or is it this guy
works for the county. The county's the government, and everybody
(35:48):
has a stake in killing this person off.
Speaker 2 (35:50):
I think it's both. I think there's definitely the mistrust
of the government as always, and sometimes the government also
kind of stoked these kind of stereotypes that Asian Americans,
but Japanese in particular, were not trustworthy, could not be
relied on. I mean, these are stereotypes that have existed,
you know, for a very long time. The one that
(36:12):
came up right, because being a corner is sort of ghoulish, right,
I mean, you're working with the dead, and I think
there were more kind of social prohibitions around it in
the sixties and seventies. But at various times people would
question Thomas Lagucci's objectivity right as a scientist and as
a pathologist, because the idea that Asian Americans, Japanese Americans
(36:37):
were bloodthirsty and monstrous. I mean, these stereotypes emerged over
and over when people were talking about Thomas Lagucci. He
can't escape that and I think it was surprising for
him because you know, he was a Japanese immigrant. He
came after the war. He was part of that new
migration of immigrants called the shiny Si that included students
(37:01):
and war brides. And you know, he was not incarcerated
during the war, but his wife was. And he thought somehow,
I think because he was a very good student, he
worked very hard that he would be exempt from this
kind of racial vitriol, but he wasn't. And I think
that really has, you know, a deep impact on him
(37:25):
and how he understands his place in the world. And
it certainly impacted right the shape and trajectory of his career.
And if you also even just kind of look at
the early history of pathology it as a medical discipline,
you know, it's not surprising if you look in the
fifties and sixties, Right, this was supposed to be a
(37:47):
time where we've won the war, right, Like it's supposed
to be this golden flowering of technology. But who's tracked
into pathology more so than any other group. It's primarily
physicians of color because they would never work with the living.
Speaker 1 (38:04):
What's the case or cases we maybe have never heard
of that you just thought when you read about him,
you just thought, what, this guy is smart. I mean,
this was clever what he did. Can you think of those?
Speaker 2 (38:15):
Yeah, I think the one that really stuck with me
is Leonard Deadweiler, which happens very early for him in
sixty six. And Leonard Deadweiler is he's this young man
who he thinks his wife is going into labor and
she feels like she's going into labor. And they are
driving to USC County General. They need a general hospital
(38:40):
and they're leaving South Los Angeles because there is no
hospital there. They're a black couple who have migrated from
the South and he's speeding and he gets pulled over
and an officer approaches them. It's not exactly one hundred
percent clear what has happened, but he shot to death
(39:01):
and he dies in his wife's arms. The dead Weiler case,
in particular, for Thomas Nogucci, right, like, the forensic work
is pretty straightforward, right like, oh, you know the person,
you know, it's horrible if he died of a gunshotmound
and right, and he testifies to this fact, but it
opens his eyes to the fact that science can't explain
(39:23):
everything about the legal system and about justice, and that
this influences him deeply. You know, he wants to know
why then so many black and brown men in Los
Angeles are being shot by the police. Right, and this
is in the nineteen sixties, before Rodney King. This is
right before you know what shapes most of our ideas
(39:47):
about police violence. Right start much much earlier, and he
works on you know, various tasks, courses, you know, to
bring attention, and then later he'll be involved also around
the use of the chokehold. So you see all these
things that are kind of laid out before these kind
of really big historic moments that we'll see, you know what.
(40:07):
Like Robey King, it makes clear for him that while
science has to be central to death investigation, but there's
also these other things that you know, are not measured
so easily. And this really kind of has, you know,
an impact on him.
Speaker 1 (40:28):
I wrote a book about a forensic scientist who worked
in the nineteen twenties, and he between probably nineteen fifteen
and nineteen fifty three when he died, he had resolved
more than two thousand cases. And I had read, i mean,
just thousands of his personal letters to colleagues and all
of that, and the one thing that struck me, and
(40:49):
this is what I wonder about Thomas Nagucci. The one
thing that struck me about Oscar Heinrich was what I
never read ever in any of his letters, was I
might have been I don't know if this was the
right technique to use. I'm not sure if this technique
was right, or oh my gosh, they just came out
with something brand new about blood stain powdern analysis that
(41:10):
I didn't have back then. Maybe I was wrong about
the David Lambsome case never and I always was disappointed.
And instead of me framing that as overly confident or
you know, somebody who who has a lot of confidence
in his work in the book, I basically said, this
is arrogance. You cannot say you haven't made a mistake.
In two thousand cases, he has certainly sent people to
(41:31):
death row. And I'm assuming to you know, at the time,
would have been maybe the electric chair on bad evidence
that he created.
Speaker 2 (41:38):
I think he had less hubris in the early part
of his career, but at kind of the height of
it in the seventies. He's a celebrity in Los Angeles,
and that's no small thing. The Society page notes that
he was at like a department store shopping for a suit.
He is like a person in la and he's competing
with Hollywood stars, right Like, so he's a big where
(42:01):
his work becomes compromises when he leaves his track of
the science number one. The other part too, is that
he's not a super good manager. The chief corner has,
you know, responsibility for all the science, the research, all that,
but also the day to day running of the county office,
like how many staplers do we need to buy? And
(42:21):
that kind of management. Eventually the job will be split
into two down down the road, you know, well after
Thomas de Gucci leaves the office. But I think what
is very interesting though he takes his cues, I think
very much at least he thinks of Theodore Kurfey as
a mentor, and Theodore Curfy is part of that. No apologies,
(42:45):
it's just the way he worked. And there are definitely
times when Thomas Negucci makes mistakes, and sometimes it is
because of mismanagement of the office. Sometimes it's because of
not having complete evidence, right, So they're are mistakes that
are being made. But what he recognizes very early is
(43:07):
that in terms of the publicity around it, that people
have very very short attention spans, and his mistakes are
never I think, egregious enough to jeopardize legal proceedings, and
he doesn't really stray from there. But the thing is,
(43:30):
like it's hindsight as well, like who doesn't make mistakes?
Being the corner was very hard fought and hard won
for him, and there was no way he was going
to give anything to his detractors, write any ammunition. But
what does ultimately, you know, unravel his career is an
(43:50):
investigative journalist at the La Times. He starts investigating him
and brings all these things to light.
Speaker 1 (44:08):
If you love historical true crime stories, check out the
audio versions of my books The Sinners, All Bow, The
Ghost Club, All That Is Wicked, and American Sherlock and
Don't Forget. There are twelve seasons of my historical true
crime podcast, Tenfold More Wicked right here in this podcast feed,
scroll back and give them a listen if you haven't already.
(44:28):
This has been an exactly right production. Our senior producer
is Alexis a Morosi. Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain.
This episode was mixed by John Bradley Curtis Heath is
our composer. Artwork by Nick Toga, Executive produced by Georgia Hardstark,
Karen Kilgarriff and Danielle Kramer. Follow Wicked Words on Instagram
(44:50):
and Facebook at tenfold more Wicked and on Twitter at
tenfold more and if you know of a historical crime
that could use some attention from the crew at tenfold
more Wicked, email thanks at info at tenfoldmore wicked dot com.
We'll also take your suggestions for true crime authors for
Wicked Words
Host
Kate Winkler Dawson
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