Colin Archdeacon: Ctrl+Alt+Desire

Filmmaker Colin Archdeacon had an unusual relationship with convicted killer named Grant Amato in Florida. Amato murdered his parents and his brother in 2018. And the media blamed his obsession with a cam model. But Archdeacon found out that Amato had very different motive. Let’s find out more about the three part series, Ctrl+Alt+Desire on Paramount +.   

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.

Speaker 2 (00:12):
This is an arena where the lines between fantasy and
reality are always blurred. You're playing a role, you're talking
to someone who's playing a role, but inevitably the real
use thinks out through the cracks.

Speaker 1 (00:28):
I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor
in Austin, Texas. I'm also the co host of the
podcast Buried Bones on Exactly Right, and throughout my career,
research for my many audio and book projects has taken
me around the world. On Wicked Words, I sit down
with the people I've met along the way, amazing writers, journalists, filmmakers,

(00:51):
and podcasters who have investigated and reported on notorious true
crime cases. This is about the choices writers make, both
good and and it's a deep dive into the unpublished
details behind their stories. Filmmaker Colin Archdeacon had an unusual
relationship with a convicted killer named Grant a Motto in Florida.

(01:14):
A Motto murdered his parents and his brother in twenty eighteen,
and the media blamed his obsession with a cam model,
but Archdeacon found out that a motto had a very
different motive. Let's find out more about the three part
series Control Alt Desire on Paramount Plus. What kind of

(01:34):
experience do you come to this series with? Did you
ever do any kind of print writing or journalism? Where
do you come from?

Speaker 2 (01:40):
So? I actually very much came up through journalism. I
was a video journalist for about five or six years
before taking on this story. I'd been working as an
editor in the documentary field before that, and after making
not very much headway, I decided to kind of change
gears and get into journalism. So I moved out to
New York. I went to the Unity Graduates of Journalism

(02:01):
and then was lucky enough to get an internship at
the New York Times video department and kind of, you know,
paid my bills as a video journalist for the next
five or six years after that.

Speaker 1 (02:09):
And how did you come to this story which I
have told you? I binged in actually more like half
a day, not even a day on Paramount Plus. I
thought it was wonderful.

Speaker 2 (02:19):
So I was I was actively looking for a story
that I thought was worthy of a long form treatment,
and I was also really interested in finding a story
that I thought could kind of expose the way that
the Internet is changing the way we feel about ourselves,
the way that the Internet is reshaping society, and also
an opportunity to kind of talk about how that argument
is often exaggerated. And when I saw Grant's case, I

(02:40):
immediately saw all those ingredients and kind of took a
long shot. I wrote in a handwritten letter, and then
we were off.

Speaker 1 (02:46):
Now, normally I like to unravel these stories as a mystery,
but I think we really do need to start with
Grant or where I guess where does it make sense
for us to start with this story.

Speaker 2 (02:55):
What I could do is I could start the story
telling you how I heard about it, and then how
I started piecing together the clue. So my experience of
the story, like I just said, was, you know, I
sort of on the look for a documentary project. I
particularly wanted to do something that dealt with the Internet,
and I happen to see a headline in the Washington
Post about a man who had been arrested for committing
a violent crime. He was accused of killing his parents

(03:16):
and his brother in the home that they all lived
in together. And the way the media was spinning in
at the time is that the motivation for this crime
was this sort of jilted relationship he had had with
a cam model, which is sort of like a live
streaming burlesque act that people will watch on the Internet.
And I immediately thought, Okay, this man certainly thought that
he was in love with this woman. I didn't really

(03:37):
question the fact that he had a real, authentic emotional
connection with this person, but I did very much doubt
that this relationship was the real motivation for the crime.
And I knew that because of the lurid nature of
this crime and this accusation, that the media, the mainstream media,
and certainly the criminal justice system, was sort of flat
in the story and likely oversimplify it and make it
all about the cam girl. So what I did is

(03:59):
I wrote Atto a letter in prison. I think I
wrote it to him within three days of his being arrested.
I'd never written an inmate before. All I had seen
from Grant was some of his interrogation footage, which was
surfaced on YouTube very soon after his arrest, and one
of the first things that Grant talks about in his
interrogation is his love of anime and video games, which
is very perverse considering you know that he's under arrest

(04:20):
for murder. He immediately launches into this sort of like
fanboy monologue about how much anime beans to him. So
I saw that as an opportunity to get Grant talking
about himself, to get his mind off the case, and
I reached out to Grant with a letter and I said, hy, Grant,
you know I'm calling. I'm a documentary filmmaker. You know,
I'm not really interested right now in talking about the murder,
the things that you're being accused of. Let me tell
you a little bit about myself and let me ask you,

(04:40):
you know, what is it that you loved so much
about anime? Tell me a little bit about the games
that you played, Tell me a bit about what your
life was like before all this chaos. Put it in
the mail, didn't think much of it, wasn't sure what
was going to happen, started looking around for new stories,
and I think later that week I got a giant
letter from Grant in the mail, maybe five or six pages, handwritten,
and it was almost entire about anime and video games.

(05:02):
And what he said at the end of the letter
is that the reason he got back to me out
of all the other people who've been approaching him was
I was the only one who didn't ask if he
was guilty. I was really there to listen to Grant
to sort of just like bear witness to his own thoughts.
I didn't come in with an agenda, and I wasn't
immediately kind of getting at the forensics of the crime

(05:22):
and the mechanics of the murder or the mechanics of
the arrest. That wasn't what compelled me about his story,
whereas I think every other journalists that have reached out
to him was sort of looking for Corey details right
off the bat. And you know, from these humble beginnings,
a couple of you know, handwritten letters that sort of
generated a rapport between me and Grant that lasted for
over four years, me recording phone calls in my apartment
and then eventually selling this project to Paramount Plus and

(05:44):
going out and filming interviews around the country and even
in Europe.

Speaker 1 (05:47):
I mean, one of the things that I think is
a huge benefit to a series like this, a three
part series on a streamer, is you do have the
time to dig into these different characters. And I thought
you did a great job talking about particularly the dynamics
of the family, of the Motto family, between the parents
and the two brothers. I would like to start with

(06:08):
the relationship between Cody and Grant, which I still am
a little confused about. Am I misremembering Grant saying that
he feels like Cody, the brother he killed, was the
love of his life.

Speaker 2 (06:22):
That is absolutely what Grant said. He said it to
me very many times. And what became clear to me
once I started sort of investigating this case, talking to
people who knew the a Moattos and spending just countless
hours on the phone with Grant, is this was really
the love affair that triggered this horrible crime. It was
Cody who broke his heart. It was Cody that he
had pledged his life to, and it was Cody that

(06:43):
he could not stand to be without. These were brothers
that were only a couple of years apart. They had
the same career, They played the same games, they watched
the same movies. They spent all of their time together.
They had plans to live with each other as unmarried
adults once their parents passed away. It was something almost
beyond obsession. They were kind of living as one spirit

(07:06):
in two bodies. Is how Grant would say it to me.
And once Grant started to feel his grasp on that
relationship weakening, that's when he turned to the cam model.
And that's when his life really started spinning out of control.

Speaker 1 (07:18):
And I remember Grant saying, I think it was Grant
saying they hoped to die at the same time. One
couldn't live without the other. Cody really felt like that too.

Speaker 2 (07:27):
Cody appears who have felt like that too. You know,
these were two They were, I believe twenty nine and
thirty at the time of the murders. These were two
brothers who had strong, lucrative, promising careers in healthcare, and
yet they both elected to when their late twenties and
early thirties to continue to live at home with their parents,
who still did all their laundry, cooked all their meals,

(07:48):
did their taxes for them, and they were kind of
just free to sit in their bedrooms and you know,
play on the internet all day and then go to
work when they had to go to work. And that
was pretty much their lives. It was very sheltered, very small,
and very comfortable for them. Very very deep expression of
comfort is what I got from Grant, which is you know,
sort of what the you know, the suburbs are designed

(08:09):
to provide for its inhabitants, and it's certainly what they
were doing. They were living the suburban dream. They had money,
they had comfort, they had privacy, they had all the
toys they wanted, and they had a future that was very,
very secure. Once that position of security was challenged by
Grant's own decision making, that's when he really started to
spin out of control.

Speaker 1 (08:30):
I think one of the things the strengths about this
series also is that it feels like you can because
of the way you move, you move through the chronological order,
I feel like everything, you know, you can really kind
of tell where things fall apart, how they start out
as a very strong family and then we have these revelations.
So will you tell me specifically about the dynamic between

(08:51):
the parents and the kids, because this seems at first
like both parents are in the medical field. Is that right?

Speaker 2 (08:57):
Yep, both parents were in the medical field. I believe
that Margaret, the mother, worked on the phones for an
insurance company in some capacity, and that the father, Chad
was it was a pharmacist who at the time of
the crimes was working as a telepharmacist for CBS, so
they both had strong careers in the medical field sort
of shepherded their sons through it as well. And you know,

(09:18):
from the outside, it really looked like the perfect happy family.
You know, there's these four people who spent all of
their time together, who lived together in this giant house,
seemingly peacefully, and they just spent every waking moments of
their free times in each other's company, which I think,
in a way was not the best for Grant. I
think it shrunk his world so that the way that

(09:39):
his family felt about him was all that mattered. It
was the only thing he knew it was. You know,
those were really the four walls of his psychological existence.
What these three people thought about him.

Speaker 1 (09:49):
Tell me about Chad, because I think later on in
the series we find out that Cody and Grant's father
seems to be pretty controlling, which makes sense considering they're
all in the same house and they're together. I would
have guessed that he was controlling. Do you have evidence
of that or how do we even know that?

Speaker 2 (10:07):
There's very strong evidence that Chad was sort of a controlling, overbearing,
domineering father. It's how he would describe himself. It's how
his coworkers described him. It's how neighbors and friends of
the Amodel Boys described him as very controlling. He certainly
seemed like an eccentric, but it didn't seem to be
something profoundly pathological or something that you wouldn't see, you know,

(10:31):
in any standard neighborhood in America. He was an overbearing
father who was obsessed with his children, who wanted to
control their lives, but it didn't seem like it was
anything too out of the ordinary. That being said, Grant
does tell a sort of chilling story about how his
father would always talk about how he was in touch
with God and how God would come to him in

(10:54):
his sleep and tell him what he should do and
tell him how he should control the family, and that
he had one vision. When Margaret, the mother was in
the hospital giving birth to Grant, Chad allegedly had a
vision of the devil coming to him and telling him
that Grant would be his greatest failure in life. And
this was sort of an omen of prophecy that Chad
didn't share with Grant until I think a few weeks

(11:15):
before the murders took place, So it does give you
an idea of sort of the grandiosity that Chad may
have had. But I want to be very careful about
not dragging Chad's name through the mud. He's not here
to defend himself. Grant is certainly an unreliable narrator, and
he said lots of awful things about his family that
we did not include in the series because we were
not able to corrobborat Well.

Speaker 1 (11:35):
That's smart, and that's part of being a journalist, you know,
as understanding the difference between throwing everything in the kitchen
sink and saying, Okay, this is all the information we
have versus being able to cooperate with other people. So
I'm glad you were able to do that. What do
we know about Margaret? Was she someone who was an
enabler or did she sign on with this with Chad,

(11:55):
or you know, do we think that she was just
sort of there and control along with the two guys.

Speaker 2 (12:01):
I think you know everything that I was able to
learn about Margaret. A motto tells me that she was
an incredibly caring person, an altruist and very devoted mother,
someone who devoted a huge amount of her free time
to rehabilitating animals to doting on her children, probably spent
periods of that marriage failing a little under the thumb

(12:21):
of Chat Tomato. But ultimately, the portrait that we got
of this couple in their old age, nearing retirement is
people who've settled into a very peaceful coexistence. You know,
they would cuddle up and drink wine and watch old
movies on the weekend. And though she had sort of
weathered the storm of Chat's eccentricities during their younger years together,
it was still a functional marriage and a happy one

(12:42):
at times.

Speaker 1 (12:43):
Do you think that Cody and Grant, who incidentally I
thought were twins, I mean, they look so much alike.

Speaker 2 (12:49):
They look absolutely like twins. Yeah, sound canny.

Speaker 1 (12:51):
What are the differences in their personalities that you've learned,
if anything? Or are they really working in parallel with
each other their whole lives.

Speaker 2 (13:00):
Cody was a lot more of an alpha. I think
he took after Chad a little bit more. He was domineering,
he was confident, he was a little more swaggering, and
he was certainly more socially well adjusted. He had just
entered a romantic relationship with a coworker around the time
of these crimes, which is something that seemed just completely
out of reach of Grant. So I think what we
see as sort of a Cody who was higher functioning,

(13:23):
more charismatic, better socially well adjusted, and it was this
process of him eclipsing his younger brother Grant that became
something that was just psychologically unmanageable for Grant, this parallel
track of him and Cody. Suddenly he was on his
own course, and it was a darker, lonelier course, and
he couldn't stand the separation.

Speaker 1 (13:42):
Does it seem like Cody was going to at some
point get serious with someone and then move out, and
that was what Grant's fear was.

Speaker 2 (13:50):
It's unclear exactly what Cody's long term plans were. He
certainly had no financial reason to be staying at home
and living with his parents. I think there was a
sense that, you know, this was a committed unit and
the Amatos stuck together, and that's how everyone in that
house wanted it. Certainly, anyone there could have left. Margaret
could have filed for divorce. Cody or Grant could have

(14:10):
gotten their own apartment, and they decided not to do so.
So the evidence that we have is that Cody, while
maybe bristling a little more under Chad's regimen than Grant had,
was comfortable with the relationship and did love, you know,
living in his childhood room down the hallway from his brother,
watching anime, playing video games, and sort of like having
family dinner every night, Which is not to say that

(14:33):
he wasn't, you know, the kind of person who's going
to grow up and get married and eventually move out.
But at the age of thirty, he was not that
kind of prison.

Speaker 1 (14:43):
Let's talk about their careers. Both of these men go
into the medical field, and then Grant loses his job,
which I thought, oh man, he must have really screwed
something up. But the way that it's framed in the
series feels like not something like he is, you know,
Angel of Death or anything like that. It just seems

(15:03):
like he was thinking differently, tell me what happens in
his job before he's let go.

Speaker 2 (15:08):
So Grant and Cody were both studying to become nurse anesthesiologists,
which is sort of the person that puts a patient
to sleep before a major surgery. I'm sure it's much
more complex than that, but that was sort of the
general gist of what they did. At the time where
Grant's career was sort of derailed. He was in nurse
anesthesia school, so he was at the point where he
was doing his clinicals sort of like working as an

(15:28):
intern performing anesthesia in a hospital. Not quite a full
fledged antestesiologist, but someone who had, you know, a man
with the amount of medical training and could be trusted
to put patients to sleep. He was working in an
L and D ward or a neonatal ward, I'm not
sure exactly which, but working with pregnant women preparing to
give birth, and ultimately I'm sure in labor and he
was giving someone who was giving a female patient an epidoral,

(15:50):
which is like a very long syringe that goes into
the spinal cord. And basically he had a disagreement with
the doctor in charge over how to play the needle,
how to insert the needle in, how much drug to administer,
and instead of sort of backing down and being the
student and accepting instruction from his superior, he sort of
bristled and started a big argument and insisted that he

(16:14):
was right and the doctor was wrong. This confrontation sort
of boiled over into the hallway where they were having
this frankly very unprofessional disagreement in front of other patients,
and once word of this confrontation sort of made its
way up to the school, they immediately kicked Grant out.
Not necessarily because he was right or wrong. I'm certainly
not qualified to say if he was right or wrong

(16:34):
about how this medication should be administered, but just the
idea that in the middle of training he would call
out his doctor and do so in front of patients
who are depending on the team of medical professionals to
administer appropriate care was sort of beyond the pale. So
all of a sudden, Grant is now kicked out of
nurse and ansthesia school and forced to work as registered nurse,
which he sort of saw as a position beneath him,

(16:56):
beneath his education level, beneath his intellectual level, and certainly
now beneath his brother Cody. So this is really the
first the first time where the chain is broken and
these two men are not living identical lives. Now Cody
is a nurse anesetist. He's on track to have an
enormous income, to have prestige, to have control of his schedule,

(17:17):
to sort of attain a lifestyle similar to the kind
that his father was able to provide for the family.
And Grant is now knocked down a level. He's a
registered nurse, which he saw as a pedestrian job. He
kind of saw the prospect of him ever achieving a
higher degree is almost impossible now that he had this
black mark on his record. And then, believe it or not,
Grant makes another very similar mistake. He's now working as

(17:40):
a registered nurse. He is at sort of one of
these generic drive up clinics that you see all over Orlando.
There's a huge medical industry in Orlando, and again involving
pain medication. Grant felt that some of the patients under
his care as an r end were not being, as
he put it in the police statement, adequately relaxed. What

(18:00):
he was doing is he was basically as strange as
it sounds, in these medical clinics, as far as I
could gather, there's sort of like a vending machine for
these painkillers, and what Grant was doing, and you know,
you have to type in a lot of very specific
information in order to get the medicine to pop out,
and Grant was going to these vending machines and taking
out way more medicine than he needed, storing it in
his pockets and doling it out as he saw fit

(18:22):
to patients, and this resulted in some people being over medicated.
It's certainly completely illegal to be taking out these super
strong sedatives. I think it was prope ful in this case,
which is what killed Michael Jackson. And he was sort of,
I don't want to say, playing god because he wasn't
killing anybody, but he again, you get a sense of
the arrogance, the egomania, and sort of the disdain for authority,

(18:43):
all things that Grant, you know, was not really able
to express in his family life. In his life as
the younger brother, his life is sort of the you know,
the hen pecked son. But at work he was very
comfortable being this sort of domineering, aggressive, swaggering, know it
all and he got busted almost immediately for doing this.
And when he was confronted by his bosses at this clinic,

(19:06):
he started shivering and shaking, started saying he had nothing
left to live for anymore, and he scared them to
the point that they thought he might commit suicide, which
is what they called the cops. So again, you know,
what could have been a simple disagreement at work that,
if handled professionally, could have been swept aside. Grant let
his emotions get the better of him. The police were called,

(19:26):
he was arrested and charged with I think a felony,
theft of medication. It may not have been a felony,
but he was certainly charges were pending, and he was
kind of, you know, made bail sent home awaiting the
results of that case. So now, all of a sudden,
not only is Grant no longer able to work as
a nurse anesthetist, he is looking at the possibility of
having to forfeit his entire medical career. He's not going

(19:48):
to be able to work as a nurse. I'll never
be able to achieve any kind of higher degree in
the medical field. He'll be blackballed. And again, not only
does this set him off track with his brother Cody.
Now he can't support himself. He's discribed the family. He
can't work in the field that the entire family works in.
He is now completely outcast from the life that he
had created for himself and also very much the life

(20:09):
that Chad, his father had created for him. You can
live in my giant suburban home you can play games
all day so long as you get a degree, you
work hard, and you achieve success in the medical career.
All of a sudden, in a very short amount of months,
Grant had thrown all of that away.

Speaker 1 (20:24):
Did you get a sense from anybody in Chad and
Margaret's world about what their reaction was to all of
this or Cody's reaction. Was it, in fact shaming? I
can't believe you did this. You such are moron. You know,
what are you going to do with your life now?
Was that their reaction?

Speaker 2 (20:40):
I think in private, there was a little bit of
browbeating against Grant. Of course, any father who had worked
so hard to provide such a comfortable lifestyle would be,
you know, scandalized by what Grant had done, and they
would say, I don't understand this, what are you doing?
How could you have done this? But more importantly, what
the family did is they locked arms and they did

(21:01):
everything they could to rally around Grant and support him.
They got him therapy, they got him lawyers, They did
everything in their power to get him back on his feet.
And they were the same supportive, committed, devoted parents that
they always had. That and Grant, as we see again,
was just surrounded by support and love. Maybe it was

(21:22):
a bit of a crooked love. Maybe it wasn't always
expressed in the most supportive or effective way, but clearly
these were two parents who desperately loved their son, wanted
him to get better, and would spare no emotional or
financial expense to help him do so.

Speaker 1 (21:35):
Now, this is I think the first time I really
understood the concept of a cam girl, and you explained it.
I thought, very well, kind of burlesque show, sexy woman
on camera. But when does the camgirl concept enter into
Grant's life, because it feels like it just takes over

(21:55):
almost instantly.

Speaker 2 (21:57):
So yeah, very shortly after Grant lost his second job,
you know, was charged with felony theptic medication. He's at
home now, all that, never leaving the house, spending what
he told me, eighteen to twenty four hours a day
on the internet. He tried to start a streaming career
on Twitch, which is where people will sort of watch
you play video games. Maybe sort of unimaginable to people

(22:18):
my age and older, but very popular, very popular online today,
which is a mammoth platform with lots of really talented
broadcasters on it, and Grant, you know, kind of convinced
his family, Hey, I'm going to broadcast myself playing video
games and it will be my new career. And again,
you know, I'm sure with enormous amounts of skepticism. You know,
they helped him buy all the equipment he needed to

(22:39):
be a streamer. They encouraged him. He tried it. Now,
all of a sudden, he's in his bedroom all day
alone playing video games quote unquote professionally, and he's bringing
in something like one hundred dollars a month. It's clearly
not going anywhere. It's a ridiculous fantasy. There's no future
in it. And then one day alone at night, as
Grant tells the story, he's downloading anime on a tour

(22:59):
in site and he sees an ad from myfreecams dot com,
which is an extremely popular camming website, camming platform. He
clicks on it. He's whisked into this world. You know,
I've seen it now. It's sort of like, you know,
this carousel of different women that you can click on,
and then all of a sudden you're transported into a
room with them. They're sitting in front of a computer
with a camera on it. Often just chit chatting with

(23:20):
members they're in, you know, often underwear revealing outfits, and
then over the course of like you know, a two
or three hour performance, the vast majority of which is
just sort of small talk, it evolves into sort of
like more erotic acts and performances. The way Grant tells it,
he saw this woman and fell in love at first sight.
Her stage name was Eddie Sweet. She was a Bulgarian camperformer,

(23:43):
you know, with dark hair, beautiful blue eyes. To Grant,
must have sounded like a very exotic accent. She had
sort of a dark, biting sense of humor, and Grant
was head overheels, you know. Even though these are you know,
communal spaces where there's maybe one hundred guys watching a
single performance, Grant was able to feel like he was
forging a really personal connection with Addie Sweet. And what

(24:07):
he did is he started spending more and more money
in this sort of camming ecosystem to the point where,
you know, if you spend enough money in this system,
you're able to have one on one conversations with the
camp performer. So him and Addie Sweet, whose real name
he later found out was Sylvie, started spending huge amounts
of time on the phone together. He got her personal numbers,
so they were texting all day. What's this is called,

(24:29):
you know in the sex work industry, is the girlfriend experience.
This person will sort of performed the emotional role of
being your girlfriend. Well, of course, never meeting with you
in person, you get to feel like you have a girlfriend.
And while I think the vast majority of people on
these camming sites understand that this is fantasy play, that
this has cause play. Of course, if you're paying someone

(24:50):
to be your girlfriend, they're not your girlfriend. It's after all,
not called the girlfriend. It's called the girlfriend experience, right,
This is all a mediated fantasy, and the rules of
the game are were still clear. I was looking for
sort of any kind of academic literature about camming that
I could read to sort of educate myself to feel
like I wasn't coming in It's a total neophyight, when

(25:10):
I eventually interviewed these cam workers and so that I
wasn't just sort of getting the perspective of online users.
So I wanted to find some kind of expert who
had done the heavy lifting and the heavy thinking that
I couldn't do on my own. And I found doctor
Angela Jones, who was a professor at SUNNI. She had
written a book called Camming, which was the only serious
academic work I could find about the camming industry, and

(25:31):
it was sort of became the bible of our show.
I had everyone working on the series read the book,
and it provided a lens and a language and a
system of empathy and sympathy for understanding this world that
was totally out of reach for us as non experts.

Speaker 1 (25:45):
And I thought that doctor Jones made some really excellent points.
One of the things that I think is interesting about
this world that I think you showed both sides of
is On the one hand, Grant talked about what he
felt like was the manipulation of the world, which is
literally like a ranking system if I understood him, of
the amount of money that these men would pay Sylvie

(26:07):
and then of course, you know, she would be effusive
for the top men who happened to be Grant.

Speaker 2 (26:14):
You know, I think a really perfect word for this
story is gamified. You know, the Camming ecosystem is gamified,
so you get points by how much you tip, and
there's a leaderboard for who's scoring the most points and inevitably,
all the men in these rooms are competing for who
can be the leader, who can win the game. It
looks like a video game, It feels like a video game.
It sounds like video games with all the you know,

(26:36):
the digital sound effects and the icons and the badges,
and it's just very much mirrors gaming culture down to
a t and Grant, whose social status had I don't
want to say had been stripped of him, but who
had sort of set his social status on fire in
his real life, all of a sudden found this world
where he could be a top dog again, and he

(26:56):
could kind of get that swagger back, and he could
kind of be thea that he wasn't able to be
in real life. And the way to do that was
by spending as much money as possible to become the
top of the leader board and ultimately become, you know,
the main receptacle of Sylvie's attention. So what he started
doing was burning through his life savings, spending more and
more money every single night, every single performance. Tipping is

(27:18):
he set a little bell jingles inside the room and
everybody looks at you like you're some special guy. He basically,
you know, he felt like a celebrity in this room.
And when he burned through his own savings, this is
where you know it took a turn that he was
ultimately not able to get out of. Randt started spending
his family's money. He started stealing credit cards, he started

(27:38):
taking out loans and other people's names. He started, I
believe he was even able to mortgage the to mortgage
the home. And what he ended up doing was stealing
over two hundred thousand dollars from his family and giving
it all to Sylvie in the course of something like
six months, and again in another act of I think
at this point we'd have to say unconditional love. His

(28:00):
parents discover all this, They discover grand subterfuge, they discover
all the theft. They confront him and they forgive him.
They offer to pay back all the money, They offer
to sweep any criminal probes that might be going on
under the rug. They take him to therapy, they allow
him to continue living in the house, and they do
everything they can to rehabilitate their son. And sadly, what

(28:22):
we see in the story is that all of their
best efforts fail.

Speaker 1 (28:25):
Let's talk about the girlfriend experience, because this is the
part of the series where I was the most conflicted,
and I understand the concept. So you know, like you're
making a personal connection. Certainly, if we believe Grant, she
is drawing him in and it seems like really sharing
some personal aspects of her life. He feels like he

(28:46):
can draw a line between her online persona and Sylvie,
the woman who has vulnerabilities. But do you get the
impression that this is all an act? Because you had
a cam girl in the series who has a really
what felt like an authentic conversation with one of her
anonymous clients on the phone, And man, I just had

(29:08):
a hard time reading what is real and what is
not with you know, some of these people, both with
the clients and with the women.

Speaker 2 (29:17):
Yeah, I think it's definitely this is an arena where
the lines between fantasy and reality are always blurred. You're
playing a role, you're talking to someone who's playing a role,
but inevitably the real use sneaks out through the cracks,
and there always is some kind of authentic emotional transaction
where you're chit chatting about what she did that day,
which you watched on TV last night. How annoying it

(29:39):
is to sit in traffic when you're just trying to
get groceries. You know. Real life inevitably insinuates itself in
all these relationships, but there is this underlying, like heartbeat
of capitalism pulsing through all of these interactions where money
is being exchanged, money is being asked for. Though, as
Grant says point blank in the series, Sylvia or asked

(30:00):
him to spend money on her, he did all of
it on his own. You know, something that doctor Jones says,
I'm not sure if this made it in the series,
is like, look, if you want a girlfriend, if you
want a relationship, there are websites for that. You can
go on Tinder, or you can go on Hinge. When
you go onto one of these camping platforms, you're very
much entering the world of a game. And the vast
majority of people understand this. It's rare that someone completely

(30:24):
loses perspective on real life and where the roles begin
and end, and develops this kind of obsession that being upset.
Of course, it does happen, and people who work in
this industry know the signs, they know what to look for,
and we are told they're very quick to cut off
people when they feel that it's becoming completely psychologically destructive
to enter into one of these sort of like almost

(30:45):
like a cause play relationship. The way Grant tells the story,
he was spending something like eight or ten hours a
day texting or talking to Sylvie or watching her performances.
They certainly got very close, but again Grant was lying
to Sylvie, probably a lot more than she was manufacturing
an identity herself. He told Sylvie that he was a

(31:08):
millionaire doctor who drove a BMW and lived in his
own house. He sold Sylvie the fantasy life that he
thought he deserved, all the things he thought him and
Cody were sort of set up to earn on their
own and that he had destroyed. He told Sylvia that
he had achieved all those things. So from Sylvie's point
of view, I can imagine that it is somewhat flattering

(31:29):
to have a wealthy American doctor who's obsessed with you
and spending all of his money on you, And of
course that must be somewhat intriguing. I would never try
to intinunate that she had any sort of romantic feelings
for him, but it probably wasn't so horrible to get
on the phone and in chit chat with this successful
man who's obsessed with you every day. Grant is educated,

(31:49):
he's intelligent. I'm the same is true for Sylvie, and
I think it's quite believable that they could have, you know, stimulating,
friendly conversations with each other, and they very likely did.
But of course, you know, Grant again refused to acknowledge
the boundaries of this world, and there are very clear
boundaries psychological boundaries about what is real, what is love,

(32:09):
what is not true. As some of the men, some
of the other men in the group were also like
Sylvie's super fans told me, you know, this is like
a strip club. It's a place that I come to
after work to let off a little steam. Of course,
it's erotic, and you know, I'm stimulating that part of
my life. Of course I do like chit chatting with
the girls. But you know, just as sort of pathetic
and misguided and sad it is when you know a

(32:32):
man thinks that to use their language, you know, the
strippers falling in love with them. That's exactly what they
saw happening with Grant. These were all, you know, functional
adults who had the money again to spend. They'd become
these big tippers to enter this sort of like rarefied
class of of top tippers, but they absolutely understood where
the lines were and they had never seen someone spin

(32:53):
out of control the way Grant did so, which I think,
you know, further establishes how taboo his behavior was, and
that well, certainly, you know, the camming world, there is
a world designed to get users to spend money, just
like a casino or a Walmart. It's not quite as
predatory as it was made to seem during the trial.

Speaker 1 (33:11):
I had wondered that that was the point I wanted
to bring up, is after these murders happened, this story,
as lured as it could be made in the media,
becomes fodder for sort of like late night talk shows,
I mean, every media you can think of, and it
always goes back to this guy killed his parents and
his brother over this beautiful international camgirl, and we now

(33:31):
know it was so much more complex. And also Sylvie
is not responsible for what this man did to his family.
I had wondered what the reaction was from the camgirl community.
Have you had any reaction or at least for the
people who appeared in your show.

Speaker 2 (33:49):
So the cam models that we spoke to in our show,
I'll work for a studio called Models for Models in Romania.
It is run by former cam models, run for former
cam models. It's an all female staff. It's very nurturing,
protective environment from what we were able to see. They
pay their taxes, they're above board, they advertised on the radio,
their address is publicized. It was a very normal workplace

(34:12):
in a lot of ways. They were totally unaware of
this case, even though you know, they were performing within,
you know, just a couple hundred miles of where Sylvie was.
And I think ultimately where this case really got a
football in the public imagination was in the true crime internet.
You saw these sort of explosively popular YouTube videos and

(34:33):
Twitch streams, and it was, you know, this sort of
species of internet culture that I was sort of unfamiliar with,
where there's I think there's a Grand Model YouTube video
where a woman does a makeup tutorial while explaining every
detail of the case, and I think I believe this
one had something like thirteen million view And it was
really this community that latched on to the story and

(34:54):
that sort of invested it with you know, conspiracy theories
and pop psychological analysis and stuff like that. But outside
of you know, Grant's you know community of you know,
basically the fifty mile radius of Orlando where he grew up,
the case didn't have a lot of national attention on him.

Speaker 1 (35:11):
I felt like when Grant really jumped the shark was
when he made that video meant for Cody before the murders.
And of course when he starts the video, I'm thinking,
this is what he's leaving behind after he dies by suicide,
which was not the case. It was a I need
fifty thousand dollars to go meet this cam model and
you need to give it to me, Cody. That felt

(35:33):
like a big switch to me. Do you think that
that was really the beginning of Grant thinking I'm going
to go down the road and I can't get off
this road, and it's going to end with the murders
of my family.

Speaker 2 (35:45):
Well, Grant told us is that when he first started
hatching this plan to commit this, you know, absolutely horrifying
triple homicide, was in therapy. His family had sent him
to sort of a rehab clinic to get over his
to the internet, to get over his addiction to this woman,
to sort of hopefully start to allay his self destructive behavior,

(36:06):
and it was the indignity of being sent to a
rehabilitation clinic with, as he described, scummy drug addicts. Again,
this sort of absolute loss of social status that he
saw as his birthright, this level of shame and indignity,
was something that Grant couldn't stand, and it was in
that facility that Grant started to hatch the plan that

(36:26):
was a few weeks after he filmed these incredibly disturbing
videos dedicated to his family begging them for I think
fifty thousand dollars so that he could go visit Sylvia
in Europe and see if she really did love him
or not. As you can imagine, his parents and his
brother were immediately Saint Grant, this is a fantasy world.
She doesn't love you, she's not even pretending to love you.

(36:49):
You're paying her for a girlfriend experience. You can't blame
this woman. The Amados never blamed Sylvie. Chad actually wrote
her a letter sort of absolving her of guilt. They
just begged her to off her relationship with him and
to stop taking his money or to stop receiving his
money because it wasn't actually his. But yet in these
videos that Grant recorded sort of begging his parents for

(37:11):
the funds to go start a life in Europe with Sylvie.
We could see that he's totally lost touch with reality.
He's pale, his face is drawn. He's speaking like he's
in the midst of some international espionage plot, using all
this James Bond type language about how his secrets need
to be protected and the mission needs to be completed

(37:32):
and the plan needs to be enacted, And you see
a man who's completely lost touch with reality. But I
don't know if we're necessarily looking at a man ready
to commit a triple homicide at that point in those videos.
It wasn't until, like I said, the final indignation of
having to talk to a professional therapist about his fantasies,
that Grant really could no longer take his fall from grace,

(37:56):
could no longer stomach what he had become, could no
longer really look in the mirror. And as someone on
my team put it, this was a man, you know
who really just couldn't withstand his own shame, couldn't deal
with what he had become, and had to destroy everybody
who was casting judgment on him, which again, his world
was so small. There were only three people Grant really knew.
Grant really spent time with, Grant shared his life with,

(38:17):
And if his life had been destroyed, then those three
people who constituted his life had to be destroyed as well.

Speaker 1 (38:22):
Take me through that experience. Tell me about the crime,
what happened.

Speaker 2 (38:26):
What we know about the crime is that Grant killed
his three family members with four bullets. It was very calculated,
it was very precise. Grant and his brother had an
enormous amount of experience with guns. They went to shooting
ranges all the time. They had many many guns in
the house. They played airsoft, which is sort of this

(38:46):
like militarized paintball game with all of their friends. And
he was a weapons expert. And what he did is
he came down one afternoon while everyone was at work.
His mother worked at home, so it was just Grant
and his mom at home. His mom was on the
computer playing Candy Crush. Grant snuck up behind her and
shot her in the back of the head. He then

(39:07):
waited for his father to get home. His father came
in through the kitchen. He walked in said hey Dad.
When his dad turned around, he shot his father once
failed to kill his father with that shot. His father
struggled for a bit and then Grant shot him one
final time, killing him. Then he got on the phone
with his brother. We're not sure what happened in this
phone call, but Grant somehow enticed his brother to leave

(39:30):
work and come home. This is what we know from
Cody's co workers. He got some kind of call, seemed
very distressed, and left work, which is not something Cody
was likely to do. He was a very committed and
regimented professional. Him leaving work in the middle of a
ship was unheard of. Cody comes home, takes one step
through the garage, Grant is waiting there on the side
of the wall, and kills Cody with one shot the

(39:52):
moment he walks in. Grant then spends hours at home
with the corpses of his family, organizing hard drives, trying
to get into his family member's bank accounts, making sure
that he has the entire archive of Sylvie videos, and
eventually leaving the home in the middle of the night,
going to a supermarket parking lot and logging onto Sylvie's

(40:15):
website so that he can watch a performance and spend
another night tipping her and being you know, being a
big dog in the winner's circle. He then goes to
a job interview the next morning, performs decently well at
this job interview, and is arrested at a hotel the
next day and he's taken in for questioning. He's very timid,
he's docile, he's in scrubs, and he gives I think.

(40:38):
Over the course of a six hour interrogation, he speaks
very placidly about his love of anime, his love of
video games, his love of weapons, his love of Sylvie.
He narrates the downfall that he had experienced, and this
very shocking short of crescendo to the interrogation. Grant is

(40:59):
presented with the photographs of his dead family members and asked,
did you leave the house with your family like this?
Grant breaks down in tears and immediately says no. He
holds his ground, claims his innocence, says he didn't do
anything like this. Went to trial claiming his innocence, saying
he never did anything like this, received a life sentence,

(41:22):
went behind bars claiming he was innocent. Spent months and
months on the phone with me, claiming his innocence, saying
he never did this. No one ever believed it. I
never believed it. He didn't have a credible theory of
what had actually happened that night. And then he took
his case to appeal. The Department of Justice in Florida
denied his appeal, and once it became clear that Grant

(41:42):
was going to be behind bars for the rest of
his life with no chance of parole, that is when
he decided to tell me the truth. That is when
he confessed to me that he had committed these murders.
He told me what happened that night, and then all
of a sudden, I was kind of treated to like
the real Grant, you know, the mask had fined cracked off,
and I was able to talk with the real grand

(42:03):
someone that he had in part been hiding from me
all these years, on the phone. And what we saw
was all this sort of egomania, these recriminations, the pathology
of thinking that he was better than everybody else and
that he deserved the world on a platter. All of
that really came to the foreground in a very unguarded
and shocking way once Grant's appeal was denied. And that

(42:26):
is the Grant that we introduced audiences to in the
third and final episode, and that is the Grant that
I hope audiences remember when they think back on this project.

Speaker 1 (42:35):
I will say it's pretty disgusting. His smirk just transforms
I think, his whole personality, like you said in that
last episode, and it pops up a couple of different times.
I think, tell me about the little bit of a
wild goose chase that he sent you and then it
sounds like quite a few police officers on which ends
up with that damn smirk.

Speaker 2 (42:56):
Yeah. One of the weak points in the prosecution's case
is that there was no more weapon. They couldn't find
the gun that had actually killed the Amatos, which was
a glaring hole in their case. It made it seem
like for a long time that Grant could actually be
found innocent and walk away from this trial of freeman.
Like I said, once it's appeal was denied and Grant
finally confessed to me, I asked him right away. I
was like, Grant, where's the murder weapon? And he said, oh, well,

(43:17):
I actually, after I killed my family, I went back
to one of my friend's houses and I buried it
in his backyard, which seemed strange, as many of the
lawyers said the second I told this theory to the lawyers,
they jumped on it right away. It was like, this
doesn't sound credible, this sounds bizarre. Wouldn't there be evidence
of digging. Why wouldn't he just throw it in a lake.
There's a million lakes around here. Why would he do this? Nevertheless,

(43:38):
Grant held tutor that story. I felt legally obligated to
tell the sheriffs that I had been told this information
that there could potentially be a murder weapon buried in
this backyard somewhere out in Florida. I had to give them,
you know, some sworn testimony, and they allowed us to
film them digging for this, this murder weapon in the backyard,
and they didn't find it. Grant, of course, had a

(43:59):
theory that, you know, he had buried it under a tree,
and in the years intervening between when he was arrested
and when we went to dig it up, those trees
had been removed, and maybe the landscapers had sort of
excavated the gun and just thrown it away in a
landfill somewhere. But you know, the story wasn't quite convincing,
and at that point, I think we saw that Grant
was you know, a manipulator, a narcissist, someone who was

(44:20):
enjoying this cat and mouse game that he was now
playing with me. And that was sort of the conclusion
that we all drew from this event. You know that
here's another lie, another manipulation, another desperate grasp for attention,
and also, I think, frankly, another desperate attempt on his
part to attack his friend. You know, the man who

(44:41):
Grant said had the gun buried in his backyard was
another innocent bystander, another victim of this crime, and another
victim of Grant's you know, machinations.

Speaker 1 (44:50):
And I think, to your credit, that last episode really
does put so much separation between Grant, this love sick puppy,
you know, who was so desperate to be with this
cam model that he killed his parents and his brother
for the money and they were pressuring him to stop
and all of that, and this manipulative woman. And now

(45:12):
the reality of it is, you know, I wonder if
this would have happened in some way, shape or form,
whether he had met Sylvie or gotten into that world
or not, just because he seems so much more authentic
now after this mask is pulled off. It just seems
like inevitable that something bad was going to happen. But

(45:33):
as I was starting to say, now, to your credit,
there's so much space now between I think, you know,
Sylvie was an excuse and the cam model world was
an excuse that now is not very legitimate.

Speaker 2 (45:45):
Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. I think that's you know,
grantstonfatuation with Sylvie was a symptom. It wasn't the disease,
and it's very important to distinguish between the two. I
think without Sylvie there still would have been a tragedy
in this family. And I think that, you know, even
if Grant's life had gone exactly how he wanted it
to and he had achieved all of this success, I

(46:07):
think he still would have hurt the people in his
life in some sort of savage way. It might not
have been this unbelievably tragic, violent outburst, but I think
this man has serious mental health problems and he was
going to hurt the people in his life in one
way or another. Sylvie was in, you know, sort of
the wrong place at the wrong time and became this

(46:28):
object of fascination for Grant. But I don't think she
twisted his mind or his motivations or preyed on his
emotions in any sort of unusual way whatsoever. There are
millions of people engaged in these kind of relationships around
the world. They don't end in violence. What was that
work here? With something a lot more complicated, a lot
more human, a lot more idiosyncratic to Grant's own, you know,

(46:51):
particular psychology and emotional makeup.

Speaker 1 (46:54):
You hire an investigator, translator, investigator to try to find her,
and when ultimately this investigator tracks her down, Sylvie sounds
like another victim to me. I mean, she is scared, senseless,
and I'm sure if she were to pick someone to
speak with it would be your crew, just because you
have done such an in depth job. But she seems

(47:16):
frightened and of course not trusting Grant and feeling betrayed
in all sorts of things, but mostly frightened.

Speaker 2 (47:23):
Yeah. I absolutely consider Sylvie to be one of the
victims of this crime. I told her so in many letters.
She you know, as doctor Jones says in our series,
she was just doing her job and this terrible thing happened.
When we speak to where she absolutely sounds scared. She
says that she had to go to therapy to recover
from this event. That has taken a lot of work

(47:43):
for her to get back on her feet, but that
luckily she has. She's still working, she's still successful. And
I think very telling is that she's never in this
conversation we have from her, she never says Grant's name,
she never says, you know, the term the murder or
the crime. She just says this thing. It's still something
that she can't speak. It's still something that clearly is

(48:03):
a weight on her. And again, it's just another crystal
clear portrait of and I hate to use this language,
but how effective this crime was. Grant destroyed so many people,
He destroyed so many lives, and the legacy of his
actions still live on. It's not over, and it will
not be over for anyone who lived through this.

Speaker 1 (48:24):
I mean, I hate to bring this up, but this
man has gotten a tremendous amount of attention from women.
I never understand it. I don't need to understand it,
but he claims, and I'm sure it's true, that he
has gotten just hundreds of solicitations from women who want
to communicate with him. And kind of grossly he explains

(48:46):
how he knows when someone is authentic and is an
authentic and how he can now be picky. It is
clear that Grant A. Motto is getting more attention now
than he ever has in his entire life, and is
kind of getting what he wants in an odd way.

Speaker 2 (49:01):
I think that's true, and that is an inevitable byproduct
of this project is that Grant is going to get
some attention, and it's going to be, you know, attention
from people who are likely not doing very well themselves.
What I hope is that this project once and for
all dispels the idea of Grant potentially being innocent, which
was still you know, in the public record that he

(49:22):
was claiming his innocence until I was able to extract
this confession for him. It's now a matter of public
and permanent record that Granted Motto did commit these murders,
has confessed to these murders, and I think, as we
expressed in the final the final minutes of the series,
experience is almost no remorse. So I think the idea
of him being a and this is language that I
got from speaking to some of these women who reach

(49:43):
out to these convicted murderers, is this is not you know,
a poor, broken boy, a victim of a modern society
who didn't understand his vulnerability. This was a cold, calculated,
heartless act by a very disturbed man who, as a
human being deserves some sympathy, but as a rational actor

(50:04):
and a victim of circumstance, I think deserves no sympathy whatsoever.
And what I'm hoping is that this actually dampens the
appeal of the Grand Model story going forward.

Speaker 1 (50:14):
What was your last conversation like with Grant or have
you had a last conversation with him yet?

Speaker 2 (50:19):
So I would say that we haven't had our last
conversation without giving away too many details. Grant and I
were able to communicate with a contraband cell phone that
he was able to smuggle into prison. Oh, we were
able to text fairly regularly, and he always had read receipts,
so I would know when he received my messages. As
far as I know, Grant hasn't received any of my
messages since Thanksgiving. We're recording this in April, so it's
been about four months since I was able to communicate

(50:42):
with Grant. I think it's very likely that Grant is
being punished for this series coming out, being punished for
communicating with a journalist without the prison's intervention, and is
very likely in solitary confinement right now. This is a
risk that Grant knew he was taking. He kind of
saw it as sort of the inevitable consequence of him
pt disicipating in the story is that he would have
his phone confiscated, he would be punished by the guards,

(51:04):
and he'd be thrown in solitary And it appears that
that's what's happening right now, though of course I don't
know for sure. But what I can tell you is
that Grant has not communicated with me since I finished
the show in November. As far as I know, he
hasn't seen the show and might not be able to
get his hands on any kind of technology for a
long time, which could be a good thing.

Speaker 1 (51:23):
What would be the purpose for you to keep communicating
with him once the show is out? Is there another
step after this?

Speaker 2 (51:31):
I feel that I owe Grant sort of the respect
of staying in touch with him. You know, he did
share his story with me. We spent a long time
getting to know each other. That being said, I always
had to create, you know, a very firm wall between us.
This could never be a friendship or a therapeutic relationship
for him, And certainly that was something that Grant wanted.

(51:53):
You know, he's in prison for life, and he needs partnership,
and he needs sympathy, and he needs people to listen
to him. And once I realized that he was sort
of developing this kind of attachment to me into our calls,
I had to pull back a little bit and make
sure that Grant didn't view me as a friend. That
being said, I do feel that I owe him staying
in touch. I'm curious to hear what he has to

(52:14):
say about the show, But yeah, I certainly don't feel
that Grant deserves my sympathy or my empathy any more
than he's already received it.

Speaker 1 (52:22):
I'm just so curious about why did they not pursue
the death penalty in this case. I am not going
to talk about my politics around the death penalty, but
we're in Florida. You would think that with a triple
murder that would be the first thing on their minds.

Speaker 2 (52:36):
Well, it was certainly on the table. And the reason
that Grant did not get the death penalty is that
his one surviving brother, this was a half brother of
his who had moved out of the house, was much
older than Grant, sort of isolated from the family, but
still a half brother. Nonetheless, someone who intimately knew Grant's
parents went on the stand and said, despite everything, despite

(52:56):
my absolute, rock solid belief that Grant did kill my family,
I still love my brother, And that statement saved Grant's life,
and again is yet another piece of evidence of the
unconditional love and support that Grant received from his family
every step down the rabbit hole.

Speaker 1 (53:13):
Did other family members say something similar or was there
anybody else there to represent Chad and Margaret?

Speaker 2 (53:20):
No one else took the stand to defend Grant or
to talk about the impact that this murder had had
on the family. I think the Amatos were estranged from
certain parts of their family. They were very isolated family.
I think they all kind of just went to work
and then went home and spent all of their free
time at home together. So there were not a lot
of people who had insight into what these tumultuous last

(53:41):
six months of the Amado's lives were like. I think
Margaret was upfront about the fact that she was going
through family problems and she was distressed, but no one
really knew what the nature of them was, and I
think certainly everybody was disgusted with Grant. Everyone was completely
convinced of his guilt and didn't feel like they needed
to take the stand in order to put this man
behind bars.

Speaker 1 (54:01):
Tell me a little bit about what your feelings are
with that fem fatale storyline, the manipulated man, poor man
who has fallen into the web of this woman who
is specifically targeting him to kind of play with his emotions.

Speaker 2 (54:16):
I think it plays into the fantasy here that you know,
men are not responsible for their own sexual impulses. It's
something hardwired into them. They can't be taken to task
for acting on these impulses, which obviously serves a patriarchy
in you know, completely transparent ways. It puts a target
on the backs of any women with sexual agency, any

(54:37):
women who want to explore their sexual capital, who want
to spend their sexual capital in the open marketplace. And
what it does is it I think it's a way
of you know, subjugating women. You know, you have the
responsibility of not praying on men's sexuality, Whereas I think
we all know that time and again, what most often
happens is that women are the victims of male sexuality,
and I think that's exactly what we're seeing in this

(54:59):
case here, where Sylvie ends up becoming the victim of
Brandon Motto, just like so many other people in this story.

Speaker 1 (55:16):
If you love historical true crime stories, check out the
audio versions of my books The Ghost Club, All That
Is Wicked, and American Sherlock, and Don't Forget. There are
twelve seasons of my historical true crime podcast, Tenfold More
Wicked right here in this podcast feed, scroll back and
give them a listen if you haven't already. This has
been an exactly right production. Our senior producer is Alexis M. Morosi.

(55:41):
Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain. This episode was mixed
by John Bradley. Curtis Heath is our composer. Artwork by
Nick Toga. Executive produced by Georgia Hardstark, Karen Kilgarriff and
Danielle Kramer. Follow Wicked Words on Instagram at tenfold More
Wicked and on Facebook look at Wicked Words Pod