July 21, 2025 • 48 mins
We’ve had journalist Elon Green on before to talk about his fantastic book Last Call. His new book is about an inspiring young Black artist in 1980s New York. Michael Stewart ended up dead after encountering a Transit Authority police officer at a 14th Street subway station late one night. Witnesses say that police beat him to death, and it made national headlines. Green tells me about his book, The Man Nobody Killed: Life, Death, and Art in Michael Stewart's New York.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
The key thing to know about his death is something
that a jurors said to me. He said, we meaning
the jury, We all knew that havesinth the police, Michael
Stewart would still be alive.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor
in Austin, Texas. I'm also the co host of the
podcast Buried Bones on Exactly Right, and throughout my career,
research for my many audio and book projects has taken
me around the world. On Wicked Words, I sit down
with the people I've met along the way, amazing writers, journalists, filmmakers,
(00:52):
and podcasters who have investigated and reported on notorious true
crime cases. This is about the choices writers mate, both
good and bad, and it's a deep dive into the
unpublished details behind their stories. We've had journalists Elon green
On before to talk about his fantastic book Last Call.
(01:13):
His new book is about an inspiring young black artist
in nineteen eighties New York. Michael Stewart ended up dead
after encountering a Transit Authority police officer at a Fourteenth
Street subway station. In Manhattan late one night. Witnesses say
the police beat him to death, and it made national headlines.
Green tells me about his book The Man Nobody Killed, Life,
(01:37):
Death and Art in Michael Stuart's New York. So, I
lived in New York for almost ten years, and I
lived in the West Village and then the East Village.
So as soon as I read Union Square and the
subway there, I thought, oh boy, I mean, it's so
it's so weird when things happen that are so important,
(02:00):
you know, you don't live in that city anymore. And
then all of a sudden, you're right there. Man, I
could just feel it. But I wasn't there in the eighties.
Before we talk about Michael Stewart and what happens, why
don't you just tell me a little bit about that
time period, which sounds just harrowing. Is probably an understatement
for living in certain parts of the city, and particularly
for being a black man in the city.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
Yeah, I mean, the city was coming, you know, still
coming out of the fiscal crisis of the mid seventies,
but you know, as a near bankruptcy. The fiscal problems
spawned the possibly the most famous headline in the history
of tabloids forward to city drop dead. So by nineteen
(02:42):
eighty three things are still really bad. You have, you know,
underfunded public works all over the place. Subways are still
falling apart. You know, parks are in bad shape, street
lights be non existent. I mean, you know, compared to
(03:02):
the way they were in the mid seventies, they're on
the upswing. But that's saying very little, quite frankly. And
you know, we're not that far from the period where
the city paused hiring police for a couple of years,
which is a measure that seems unfathomable now, but it
(03:24):
does give you a sense of how bad things were.
Speaker 1 (03:29):
Now, what were the racial tensions like in New York.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
I mean, in some ways, I kind of think it's
just part and parcel, because in neighborhoods that were predominantly black,
they were overpoliced, and in neighborhoods that were predominantly white,
like parts of these village, well, it's a kind of
a rough time to be a black person, you know,
(03:55):
because you're in the minority. You're a minority in the minority,
and the minority and when are there not racial tensions
in New York City? You know, once you get out
of the eighties, you get Crown Heights. Before the eighties,
you know, you've got riots in Harlem. It's it's that's
part of New York unfortunately, and all of this is
(04:18):
certainly exacerbated I think it's fair to say by a
very large and active police force who practiced broken windows,
probably before broken windows was even a thing.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
What is broken windows?
Speaker 2 (04:35):
As I understand it, You know, a sort of a
capsule description of broken windows is the notion that you
can make a significant decrease in crime by cracking down
on sort of petty infractions, and I guess the opposite
being true. So the like the idea of, you know,
(04:58):
if you finish fair beating or a graffiti or something
like that, that will it will have a downstream effect
on other crimes. And seems to be a lot of
disagreement about the extent to which that is true, But
that's the idea of believe can you do that?
Speaker 1 (05:17):
Though, if you are an underfunded police force, under man
police force, I mean, aren't you just putting out the
biggest fires at that point in a city as large
as as New York City is?
Speaker 2 (05:28):
Yeah, I mean it's quite possible. Also that the city
was not yet practicing that may have actually started under
Ray Kelly. I'm not quite sure. And then the since
it doesn't come up in the book, it's possible the
broken windows was not a thing yet, but I mean
it is true. I mean they were the city was
not equipped to police itself in that period. You know,
(05:52):
this was a decade before the transit police merged with
the NYPD, and so you know, transit police were under
the auspices of the MTA. They were different from city
police in that they controlled solo versus in pairs. While
(06:14):
they made the same amount of money, they were given
very little respect and often very poor equipment. They had
radios that often didn't work, but was told one story
about how they had to share batteries basically, And so
all of these these macro conditions set up a situation
(06:39):
where you have subways that are falling apart. They're being
policed by people who by virtue of how they're trained
and by you know, solo patrolling of kind of hair
trigger personalities. Because it is a very dangerous time to
be doing that job. Is that the killing of Michael
(07:03):
Stewart was not specifically inevitable, but generally.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
So you appeared on the show a while back for
another book that is set in New York about the
same time right was Last Call around the same time period.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
About eight years later, and of course somewhat different neighborhoods, which,
as someone who lived in New York knows that that's
a different world.
Speaker 1 (07:26):
Yeah, absolutely, but still you know, that story very much
was digging into the culture of policing different jurisdictions, and
then you know, vulnerable victims, marginalized victims in a serial
killer who was targeting gay men. So with this book,
did you have to approach it differently than you did
(07:47):
Last Call? Or did you see enough parallels where you
felt like you had a good handle on at least
sort of the eighties and you know, how to explore
this in a way where you're highlighting the victim and
really digging into the in this case, one victim, and
then sort of taking that person and expanding on the issues,
the social issues in that time period in that city.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
It's interesting that you put it that way, because certainly,
as I was working on this book, I didn't really
think of Last Call at all in my head, with
the exception of you know, taking place in Manhattan. For
the most part, I saw almost no overlap. Do you
have the same district attorney in Manhattan, Robert Morganhaugh, And
(08:32):
he plays a larger role in this book than he
didn't Last Call by far. It was a really different world,
a different animal, and the way I was telling the
story was also much different. So the things that worked
or didn't work in Last Call didn't really carry over.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
Well, let's talk about Michael Stewart in this case. So
paint a picture of who we're talking about here, because
Michael becomes, you know, not just a victim and not
simply somebody who people can look at and advocate for.
I mean, this becomes a phenomena. And so we'll talk
about that a little bit, but paint a picture of
who Michael was.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
Michael Stewart is a twenty five year old black man,
five foot eleven, maybe one hundred and forty pounds, soilken, wet,
exceedingly handsome, quiet, thoughtful. He's a part of the East
Village firmament, you know, certainly not at the center of it.
But he worked at the Pyramid Club, which was, you know,
(09:33):
a really important part of the art and music scene.
And he was dating a woman who was also on
and off dating Jean Michelle Boscia. He appeared in Madonna's
first music video for the song Everybody. He was DJing.
Not that long before his death. He worked a party
(09:56):
for Maripol, who was Madonna's stylist. All of which is
to say he had a lot in common with a
lot of people of his era and in that neighborhood,
in that he was aspiring. You know, he was certainly
accomplishing things to further whatever his goals in life would
(10:16):
have been. But he certainly wasn't there yet.
Speaker 1 (10:19):
How did he get to that spot? What was his
family like and his upbringing and all of that.
Speaker 2 (10:25):
I don't know that his upbringing had much of anything
to do with he. He lived in Fort Green with
his mother and father and siblings. His mom was a teacher,
his father worked for the Metropolitan Transit Authority, and like
a lot of kids who had an interest in art
(10:46):
and music and photography, he was going into the city
for concerts and gallery openings, and so even though he
lived in Brooklyn, he was spending his time in the
East Village. In the East Village in those years was
an unbelievably small intimate place, and so I think he
(11:08):
very quickly, also by virtue of how he looked, you know,
found himself to the proximity of quite amazing people.
Speaker 1 (11:15):
Well, tell me about his art specifically, I mean, can
you describe it and then tell me what its representation
was to him? What kind of drove him towards this
kind of art?
Speaker 2 (11:23):
I mean, his art was not extraordinary, you know. I
think there was some that seemed to be done with
colored pencils, some that looked like crayon. There was also
some painting. His art was not distinguished. He was not
a phenom, not a prodigy like most people, you know,
(11:44):
he was someone who in his early and mid twenties
was still trying to find his way. You know, I think,
like a lot of people in the East Village, his art,
you know, brings to mind the people that were around him,
whether you know that be Bascia or Keith Harring or
George Condo and all these people that were quite clearly
(12:06):
on their way up.
Speaker 1 (12:10):
Did he have any interactions that you know about with NYPD,
you know, before any of this starts to happen, I mean,
did he have run ins? Was he ever profile that
you know of well.
Speaker 2 (12:21):
On the NYPD side, I know that there had been
an arrest at one point, I think from marijuana possession.
I don't know a great deal about that. It came
out during the trial. And then as far as transit police.
In an interview, one of his coworkers at the Pyramid
(12:41):
talked about how whenever they would be on the subway,
the transit police would inevitably be sitting next to him
and not to her, a white woman. But that did
not ever escalate into something beyond, you know, casual harassment.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
Well, tell me what happens on September fifteen, nineteen eighty three,
or do we need to go back a few days.
Just start where you think you need to start.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
You know, September fifteenth, nineteen eighty three. You know, he
had begun the night at the Pyramid Club. He'd ended
up there just because he had biked into the city
spend some time with his on again, off again girlfriend.
He was unemployed at that point. He had been fired
(13:25):
by the Pyramid I think a couple of months before
for not being aggressive enough. So he ends up at
the Pyramid and a little after midnight calls a woman
named Patricia who he had met once before, but I
think they had kind of clicked, and so she shows up, oh,
I think around twelve thirty, and they spend time downstairs
(13:48):
at the pyramid, sharing the drink, and then they leave
and decide to walk a bit. They share a cigarette
on a stoop in the village, and she she has
to get home, and he decides he has to get home.
And I believe she lived in Manhattan, and of course
he lived in Brooklyn. So they piled into a cab
(14:10):
and she drops him off at the first Avenue fourteenth
Street subway. They exchange a kiss and he says, I'll
talk to you tomorrow, and he walks down the subway steps,
and that's the last time that she ever sees him conscious.
Speaker 1 (14:30):
What would that particular subway, or maybe any subways in
TA what would that have been like at that time? Midnight?
Want to happen at night? What would that be like?
Would that be a dangerous space to be in for anybody?
Or was it relatively safe? Do you think?
Speaker 2 (14:46):
I'm not really sure how to answer that, because I
don't think spaces in New York tend to be inherently
safe or unsafe. It always depends on who you are.
Doesn't it. I lived in Brooklyn Queen's for a dozen years,
and not once did I ever feel on sight didn't
(15:07):
matter where I was, because everywhere you go, it's just people, right,
And so no, I don't think there was anything particularly
dangerous or risky about the fourteenth Street First Avenue subway.
It was certainly, you know, filthy, like every other subway
station in those years. I got the sense that it was,
(15:28):
you know, pretty unpopulated, due mostly to a lack of
other accounts of people seeing him when he was down there.
You know, the only person he would run into that
night was John Caustick, a young transit officer who had
just come on shift and had come down the subway
steps and, according to him, saw Michael deface the subway
(15:53):
wall with a magic marker.
Speaker 1 (15:55):
Well, let me ask real quick, just a couple of
sort of functional things. One cameras or the cameras at
this time period in the subway.
Speaker 2 (16:02):
If there are I have not heard about it, I'm.
Speaker 1 (16:04):
Assuming no token takers are no?
Speaker 2 (16:07):
Yes? And yes, in fact, there was one on duty
on the what they call the mezzanine level, so below ground,
not at the train level.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
So is this happening before the turnstiles or past the
turnstiles where he's got this magic marker out allegedly according
to the police.
Speaker 2 (16:27):
Yes, this has past the turnstiles on the train platform presumably.
I know I sounded a little speculative and hedging about this,
but that's because I've never seen evidence that it actually happened.
And so Officer Caustic arrests him and takes him up
to the mezzanine level by the token clerk, and depending
(16:50):
on who you ask, he either sprints up the stairs
or walks very fast, but either way, John Caustic eventually,
you know, catches up with Michael and he has called
I believe it was called ten thirteen, which is, you know,
(17:11):
just a call for assistance, and soon enough other transit
police from District four, which was the precinct in the
northwest corner of Union Square, show up and the plan
was to take Michael to the district and book him for,
(17:33):
among other things, essentially graffiti. But what ends up happening,
and again this is a little speculative because Michael was
not around to testify to it. One way or the other.
It is said that he kicked a seat, you know,
essentially tried to get away, and they get to the precinct.
They park right around the subway entrance, and when they
(17:56):
get Michael out, he makes a run for it. He
runs into one of the transit officers, or might be
an Emergency Services unit officer, and very quickly there are
eleven transit police surrounding him, all white, because some come
up from the precinct to join the ones that are
(18:18):
already there, and they decide that they have to subdue him,
and so, in full view of dozens of freshmen at
the Parsons School of Design who are either awake or
about to be awake, they kick him, hit him, beat
(18:38):
him with a night stick, and it's not really clear
how long the assault goes on, but eventually they use
what is essentially fixed saran rap I guess gause to
bind his legs so that you know, he would stop kicking.
I suppose. Then they would handcuff him behind his back,
(19:01):
and then he was hogtied, which was illegal. He was
carried over to an Emergency Services vehicle and essentially swung
into the trunk, as one of the witnesses said to me,
like a bag of mulch. He is next deposited at
Bellevue the middle of the night, and the doctors managed
(19:23):
to resuscitate his heart because he was not breathing, but
he's comatose and over the next thirteen days never agained
consciousness and dies September twenty eighth, nineteen eighty three.
Speaker 1 (19:40):
Now I had remembered that there was also talk of
maybe he was either restrained or choked with what a
billy club or something like that, so that was also there.
What was the determined cause of death when it was
all said and done.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
The problem with determining cause of death is that he
died is after being in a coma for nearly two weeks, right,
and so the body does not look as it did
in the immediate aftermath of the beating.
Speaker 1 (20:12):
So it's trauma basically. I mean, that's enough.
Speaker 2 (20:14):
I think, yeah, I mean, it's you know, some a
number of a number of factors. But I think the
key thing to know about his death is something that
a juror said to me. He said, we meaning the jury,
we all knew that absence the police, Michael Stewart would
still be alive.
Speaker 1 (20:33):
And the reason I asked Elon about the cause of
death is, you know, I've dealt with especially in history,
but so many cases where you have this sort of
group of people involved in a murder, and it's so
important to determine what the cause of death was to
be able to nail down one of them and everybody
else's accessories or whatever, secondary or manslaughter. So that's why
(20:54):
I was asking. But I don't know if it matters.
I was just curious.
Speaker 2 (20:57):
Certainly it mattered at the time only because it was
necessary to determine a cause of death to help the
district attorney's investigators investigate the case, you know, and cause
of death mattered ultimately in how the criminal trial ended up.
But the trauma was the trauma, and it was considerable.
(21:20):
And as you say, you know it was a combination
of kicks and billy clubs. You know, there was at
least one or two reports that the night stick was
held to Michael's neck. You had people sitting on his
back to restrain him. You know, this was a young,
(21:43):
thin man, unarmed who just endured horrific trauma.
Speaker 1 (21:49):
So what we can confirm and tell me if this
is right or not, is that he made it down
the stairs of the subway. Pictures just said goodbye to him.
He goes downstairs. He pays, it's a token in He's
not hopping the turnstall or anything like that.
Speaker 2 (22:04):
Actually, okay, there was a report that he had beaten
the fair, but again, what else.
Speaker 1 (22:13):
So maybe maybe not. He gets down there and sort
of vanishes out of the token taker's point of view,
and then next thing the token taker knows is that
he's walking quickly up the stairs. Michael is right with
a transit cop with John Caustick in pursuit, and that's it.
And I'm assuming Caustic said he was, you know, haul
(22:34):
an ass up the stairs to get away from.
Speaker 2 (22:36):
Me, right, And I didn't mention before, But of course
there's a witness to what happens just after he gets
to the top of the stairs. It's a man named
Robert Rodriguez. He's an auxiliary police officer who works at Blimpy,
the sandwich shop by fourteenth Street, First Avenue. He has
(22:57):
spends to be on shift, but he was looking out
the and and the next day he files a police
report and says, you know, I saw this man, you know,
led out of the subway and assaulted. And to my knowledge,
he is the only person at ground level who witnesses
abuse because the students in the freshman dorm, the closest
(23:22):
anyone in that dorm was to the street was the
fourth floor, which is the level at which the dorm began.
Speaker 1 (23:30):
Do their stories line up Roberts and the freshman from
what the freshman could see.
Speaker 2 (23:34):
They essentially are attesting to two different parts of the incident.
It's my impression that the students do not see him
when he is first led up, because they only realize
something is going on downstairs when they start to hear screams.
So there's a lag and then there's all you know.
(23:57):
Of course, there's also a lag between when they first
start to hear screams and when they go over the window,
because just hearing a scream doesn't really mean anything in
New York in nineteen eighty three. So by the time
they see him is directly below the near District four.
Speaker 1 (24:15):
So we get to the hospital. He spends thirteen days
at the hospital in a coma, and then he dies.
Do you know, based on your reporting, did you have
a lot of kind of insider knowledge about what was
happening at Precinct four during these thirteen days or what
were your sources like on the NYPD side.
Speaker 2 (24:35):
Well not NYPD Transit.
Speaker 1 (24:37):
Police, Transit police.
Speaker 2 (24:38):
Sorry, I mean they very quickly lawyer up, you know,
because the police union gets involved as soon as they
get wind of it, and they hire Barrio Golnik, who
was sort of the premier defense lawyer for police at
that point. There's not a great deal probably going on
for most of those thirteen days. The important thing that
(25:00):
happens is that the police are left alone for several
hours in the immediate aftermath of the event, and nobody
is taking their statements because internal affairs refuse to get involved,
you know, refuses to get involved even though by statute
they had to. And then the police are not separated.
(25:24):
I could find no evidence that that was the case,
and their statements are not taken till about ten thirty,
I think, when two ada's from Morgenthal's office show up
to start interviewing them.
Speaker 1 (25:38):
Now, what was the relationship between the District Attorney's office
Morgenthal with the police, transit NYPD, anybody, I mean, is
there a contentious relationship between them? Do we have a
lot of police being arrested for you know, being overly
zellous or abusive with potential suspects and where are we
(25:58):
with that?
Speaker 2 (25:59):
Not a lot of those cases. And I don't think
that their relationship between the NYPD and the Transit Police
and Morgenthal's office was particularly contentious. I believe Morgenthal was
even president of it was the Police Athletic League something
like that. You know, he prosecuted police occasionally, you know,
(26:21):
generally for corruption. There was a separation between his office
and the police because he did not use NYPD to
conduct investigations. He had his own team of investigators who
answered to him. And you know, especially in a case
where police are involved as perpetrators, as as one of
(26:44):
his ADAS said to me, you know, nobody was going
to trust the cops. You know, they were not going
to use the police to investigate the police. Even to
be investigated for something like this and then ultimately to
be charged was a real shock to the system for
police in general. You know, they were furious that this
(27:05):
was happening at all because it was not something that
they were used to.
Speaker 1 (27:09):
So we have two adas from Morganenthal's office come down.
This is about what ten hours or.
Speaker 2 (27:15):
So, after about seven hours, seven eight hours.
Speaker 1 (27:18):
About seven eight hours after Michael's murder. They come and
they interview How many total officers are being looked at
here from that incident?
Speaker 2 (27:31):
Well, I suspect in that initial round they probably talked
to at least Paul eleven that had been above ground
surrounding Michael, But I can't vouch for that for certain.
There's no real record of, you know, what was said.
And when I interviewed the only living ada of the
(27:53):
pair years later, he didn't remember all that much of it.
My guess is that they said almost nothing because I'm
sure that they're a union Rep. Peter Marsala told him
to shut the hell up.
Speaker 1 (28:06):
Okay, So then what happens next? You have the transit
police probably not cooperating. When does Morgenthal think there needs
to be some charges or at least more investigation. Why
is this not brushed under the rug like I'm assuming
other incidents have been.
Speaker 2 (28:21):
Takes a little while, and it doesn't get brushed under
the rug because civil rights leaders, clergy members of the
East village make a huge think about it, and there
are protests in Union Square, at the District Attorney's office,
(28:42):
at the medical Examiner's office, you name it, and sooner
than later charges are not laid. But they a grand
jury is impatent, which you know is the first step
in doing that.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
This is public pressure. But where does it come from.
Is it because of his status as an artist, because
you know, as we've said before, you're speculating this has happened.
Why is this an outrage not coming out for other victims.
Speaker 2 (29:08):
I think it happens in the case of Michael Stewart
because in so far as there is such a thing
as a perfect victim, he is a perfect victim. You know,
aside from the aesthetics, he's good looking, he's not armed
with anything worse than like a marker or a spray
(29:29):
you know, can of spray paint. And so many cops
have surrounded him. The infraction is so banal that it
catches people's attention in a way that I think other
cases did not. But you know, the people around Michael
also were savvy and how they were talking about him.
(29:49):
They did not describe him as like a bar back
at the Pyramid Club. They made sure to emphasize that
this was a you know, a young man of potential
who wanted to be a painter or a model or
a DJ. And it was in some ways a very
easy case to be attracted to if you were writing
(30:13):
for the tabloids, you know, especially once Gabe Pressman, you know,
the first TV news journalist, got win to the case
and became obsessed with it. You know, once Pressman started
covering it and he was obsessed, all the other reporters
in the city on that beat followed suit.
Speaker 1 (30:31):
You have written, I think quite a bit about why
true crime creators pick the stories that they pick. And
you know, you have an article that I highly recommend
people reading because it's great with the appeal called the Enduring,
pernicious Whiteness of True Crime. And you know, I think
that that certainly spills over into all different categories, not
(30:54):
just people of color. But you know, this is a
different situation. Do you think it's that Michael's image reflects
kind of the every person in society that is not
quote unquote in a high risk lifestyle, which I hate.
That phrase really irritates me. I mean, it's just so
it's like that phrase high risk lifestyle is laden with
(31:16):
judgment and like you should have known kind of That's
the way I feel. So when listeners, when you guys
hear me react like that, that's what it's behind it's
just like an accusation in a way, you know. So
do you think because Michael was sort of, you know,
this aspiring artist and you know, he hopnobbed with people,
and he was good looking, do you think that that
reflects on the people who are interested in the story
(31:37):
they think it could be me.
Speaker 2 (31:38):
Yes, I mean, and certainly I think that there was
that aspect to it among black New Yorkers because again,
he's not armed, he's done nothing to incur the wrath
of eleven police officers. Now, you couldn't not sort of
underestimate how important so that the East village got involved
(32:01):
with this. And the reason that they got involved and
never really had before, was that they knew Michael. You know,
it was really all about proximity. They cared because they knew.
So I think you had all of these all of
these factors that, when combined, meant that people just cared
more about this particular case of police brutality than anything
(32:23):
that had come before it. And one more thing, one
of those coincidences of history, there are the first ever
hearings on congressional hearings on police brutality going on in
the city. As all of this is unfolded. It was
sparked by a year's worth of I think a year's
worth of police brutality cases that were finally enough for
(32:49):
John Conyers to say, Okay, we're going to panel witnesses
and hold hearings in Harlem. And it just so happened
that this was going on at the same time.
Speaker 1 (33:01):
And this happened I don't know the exact time, but
within twelve or thirteen years earlier than Rodney King, which
I imagine is probably is that the next biggest high
profile case like this.
Speaker 2 (33:14):
I actually think that it's because of Rodney King that
people generally don't remember Michael Stewart. Okay, because why do
people remember Rodney King. It's not because of what he did.
It's not even the specifics of what the police did.
Said it was filmed.
Speaker 1 (33:33):
Yeah, okay, there are indictments, and tell me what happens next.
I'm assuming that the transit police are not just on
the defensive. They must be going on the offensive with
you know, you said there's a pretty high profile defense
attorney there. How many officers are ultimately indicted in this.
Speaker 2 (33:53):
You know, eventually six officers are charged, you know, three
I believe is the second degree manslaughter all six or
charge of perjury and these are not terribly severe charges
given the damage ton to Michael Stewart, but they're about
the best I think that the district attorney could do,
(34:16):
given that no witness could say that any single transit
officer committed a specific act.
Speaker 1 (34:27):
Okay, is John Caustick in there?
Speaker 2 (34:29):
He is John Costick?
Speaker 1 (34:31):
Was his for perjury or was his for actually participating
in the assaults?
Speaker 2 (34:34):
Both manslaughter and perjury?
Speaker 1 (34:36):
So tell me what happens next. There are these charges,
and there's ultimately six of them. What is the reaction
of this advocacy group that has taken up the case.
Do they think this is ridiculous and these obviously these
charges should be heavier or are there more protests?
Speaker 2 (34:54):
Well, I mean it isn't really even so much, you know,
an advocacy group. It's really a.
Speaker 1 (35:00):
The movement almost.
Speaker 2 (35:01):
Yeah. There's all sorts of people, you know, Like I said,
you have civil rights leaders and clergy, but you also artists.
You have the Michael Stewart Friends Committee, which is made
up of people in the village and filmmakers. Basically everybody,
with the exception of people on the side of the police.
(35:22):
Agrees that these charges are weak.
Speaker 1 (35:26):
So then what is the next step once we have
these indictments.
Speaker 2 (35:30):
Well, eventually it goes to trial and dozens of students testify.
They're now at that point by then, I think they're juniors.
They no longer live in the dorms in Union Square.
The police choose not to testify, but in what ends
(35:51):
up being a very significant decision, the prosecution as their
grand jury testimony read to the jury. The reason that
this happens is because it was one of the only ways,
if not the only way, for the prosecution to establish
that the police were actually there. But it ends up
(36:15):
being a really double edged sword because the jury, while
hearing that the police are present for the beating of
Michael Stewart, here's in the voice of the police testimony
that they did not do it.
Speaker 1 (36:29):
So what is that? What are they saying exactly? Are
they saying that not one person everybody's denying that they
were the ones who were inflicting the kicks and the
beatings and everything else, or are they just saying, listen,
you know, we don't really want to know what happened.
We just know this was a dangerous guy. He was
fighting against us, and we subdued him the way we
were trained to subdue someone.
Speaker 2 (36:49):
Basically, they testify to everything that happens right up to
the point where they're outside of the priests and under
the freshman dorm beating and kicking him. So the jury
hears testimony that no police officer hit Michael, kicked Michael,
(37:12):
or choked him with a night stick. That's the takeaway.
They say, we were there, but we did not do
any of those.
Speaker 1 (37:20):
Well, what's the explanation for what happened to him?
Speaker 2 (37:23):
Then?
Speaker 1 (37:23):
When they have all these witnesses.
Speaker 2 (37:25):
Essentially that he fell of his own volition and you know,
his heart stops because of essentially alcohol induced in excitement.
Speaker 1 (37:36):
And they did toxicology on him and everything. What did
they find in his system?
Speaker 2 (37:40):
You know, I believe his alcohol level was I think
point two two, you know, about double the legal limit,
and so you know, he did have alcohol in his system,
but that was not nearly high enough for someone like
him to you know, essentially suffer a heart attack.
Speaker 1 (37:59):
We would think any medical examiner or pathologists who a corner,
any of these people would be able to identify a
fall against a curb, even several falls against a Kurber
on the ground versus the kicks, those marks would be
pretty distinct, especially on his neck. So what's the explanation
for that? I mean, really, what is the explanation for that?
I hope did the ada's really nail this down or Morgenthal?
(38:21):
Is that trial or is that the grand jury where
they really talk about that.
Speaker 2 (38:24):
Well, the chief Medical Examiner of New York, Eliot Gross,
ends up changing his mind on cause of death between
his testimony to the grand jury and when he eventually
testifies at the criminal trial. You know, this is one
of the major reasons why ultimately the police are acquitted
because you know, as John Caustics lawyer tells the jury,
(38:47):
you have a multiple choice cause of death, so you
can't convict.
Speaker 1 (38:50):
So they're all acquitted, these six guys.
Speaker 2 (38:53):
Five guys and one woman.
Speaker 1 (38:54):
And then what's the reaction in the media. Well, I
haven't asked about the media at all. What has been
the reaction of the media at this point.
Speaker 2 (39:01):
It's interesting to revisit the coverage of the Michael Stewart
case because it's really good. It's not at all what
you would expect tabloid's story of the early eighties to be.
I think that's purely an accident, because the people who
(39:22):
covered this case, aside from Gabe Pressman with Jimmy Breslin,
Murray Kempton, Leonard Levitt, who's a very underrated tabloid reporter,
often wrote about police, and then once it went to trial,
you had a young New York Times reporter named Isabelle Wilkerson.
So you had some of the great journalists of their
(39:44):
era that just happened to be writing about this case
and doing extraordinary journalism.
Speaker 1 (39:51):
Did any of the journalists in eighty three or I
guess this is eighty five at this point, is that
when that's how okay? So to any of the journalists
in New York in eighty five dig up anything against
the police, or did anybody have any any good enterprise
journalism happening where it was sort of a gotcha?
Speaker 2 (40:07):
The best scoop on that front was actually from Newsday's
transit columnist, Elis Henniken was his name, and he got
a hold of John Caustick's psychological report from when he
applied to be a city officer because he had originally
(40:28):
wanted to be on the NYPD and he failed the
psychological exam and Ellis Henniken got a hold of it
and ran a story.
Speaker 1 (40:38):
And he passed the one for the transit police.
Speaker 2 (40:41):
Yes, they just administered a different test and he passed.
Speaker 1 (40:44):
I'm assuming there's no markings on the walls or what
happens when they go look. I know that that's a
moot point, but you know, the establishing the credibility of
cost it. Is there a marker anywhere? Was there marker
on him anywhere?
Speaker 2 (40:56):
Not that I'm aware of.
Speaker 1 (40:57):
No, So these guys get acquitted. Is their outrage again.
Speaker 2 (41:00):
Yes, but it's pretty brief. I mean, I think that
the acquittal of these police it was both expected but
also incredibly demoralizing, you know, and I'm sure it was
made worse by the fact that the jury deliberated. I
think for five days people probably thought there was a
(41:20):
real chance that these guys were actually going to be convicted,
and for them to be sent home was devastating. You know.
When the verdicts were announced and the police's side of
the courtroom erupted, you know, Michael's mother looked over and said,
I'm just going to let them enjoy this. You know,
I think it was it was almost a foregone conclusion.
(41:43):
I mean, they were being prepared for it. You know,
this is nineteen eighty three. It's still extremely hard to
get a convinctioned. I mean, it's very hard to even
get indictments, much less a conviction these days. So imagine
this happening in nineteen eighty three, when I didn't talk
to a single witness to the beating that before that
(42:06):
night had a remotely critical feelings about police.
Speaker 1 (42:10):
Now, you know, I think with these kinds of stories,
you have the victim either totally forgotten because you know,
people are focusing on the killers or whoever you know,
or the themes behind it. But then hopefully you're able
to circle back to Michael and think about, you know,
why one young man moved so many people, and it
(42:33):
obviously comes down to relationships and the circumstances. I know,
do you think when it's all said and done. I know,
we're saying that he's you know, been forgotten sort of
in history as a significant figure in things like this
happening because partially because of Rodney King. But do you
think that that Michael has had a sufficient legacy or
(42:53):
remembrance here considering everything that's happened, or you know, I
mean I don't know how his mother felt about that.
Speaker 2 (42:59):
Well, well, I think, as with any of these cases,
it's it's kind of a passive legacy. Rodney King's legacy
is not because of who he is. It's because of
the things that were happening around him, in the same
way with emmittt Till. And you know, to me, when
(43:21):
I think about the legacy of the Michael Stewart case,
on the one hand, shore you could say that there's
an artistic legacy you would do the right thing and
defacement and at Tony Morrison play and maybe you can
say that you can draw something of a line between
the Michael Stewart prosecution and the George Floyd case. And
(43:46):
you know, the charges against Derek Chauvin, you know, part
one of the charges was, you know, essentially the same
as in the Stewart case. You're being charged for not
doing the job you were supposed to do defending the prisoner.
But in my most cynical moments, which is most of
the time, I think about something that the defense attorney,
(44:07):
Ron Koby said to me when I asked him what
the legacy the case was, and he said that the
Stuart case was so clear cut he wasn't armed, and
all these police around him, and everybody knew if the
police did it, And when those officers were quitted, it
sent a signal to all the other cops in the
city that they could get away with anything. And the
(44:29):
message was received.
Speaker 1 (44:31):
And this is their defense attorney. Is that who this
is telling you that?
Speaker 2 (44:34):
No, this is Ron Kooby, he says, still practicing. He
worked with He was the partner of William Kunstler. He
happened to represent a couple of the people that I
wrote about in the book, so I was in touch
with him.
Speaker 1 (44:45):
Did you end up ever getting hold of any of
the officers or they passed away?
Speaker 2 (44:49):
At this point I talked a couple of times to
John Tostik, against the advice of his attorney.
Speaker 1 (44:55):
Did he give you any information that helped you at
all or illuminated anything?
Speaker 2 (45:00):
Not in any kind of profound way. But as a journalist,
when you get somebody like that on the phone, you're
kind of grateful for anything you get. I mean, the
same was true when I interviewed Bernard Getz. I mean, again,
he's not a profound person, but you know, it was
nice to get him on the record about why he
you know, didn't take Joan Rivers as offer of bail
(45:22):
money and what his thoughts were on Jimmy Breslin. But
you know, you're never going to get introspection from these people.
Speaker 1 (45:29):
Were you able to pack this away once the book
was done? And I'd actually ask you that about Last Call?
Also when you're digging into these cases, you know, I'm
generally pretty far back in the nineteen hundreds and eighteen hundreds,
but you are talking to people who are still involved,
you know, and people who still care about Michael and
about these men in Last Call, these victims. Is it
(45:51):
hard for you to pack this stuff away? Or are
you kind of at a point in your career with
everything that you report on that you're able to sort
of move past it and remember things and you know,
think about the victims when you when you need to
where every once in a while. Or is it hard
when you complete these books?
Speaker 2 (46:06):
Yes? And no, I mean it's it's hard in the
sense that I don't have like trauma or something that
lingers from the work, But it's very hard to remove
yourself from a project like this because of the relationships
that you build up with the sources. I mean, you know,
you get used to talking to people, whether it's Michael's
(46:29):
girlfriend or Patricia Gross, one of the members of the
United Freedom Front the door talking to her. You know,
these are all really interesting people, and the pleasures of
working on the Mando Maty Killed your Last Call is
to be able to live in that world to some extent.
(46:49):
It's really nice. Even though the topic of these books
is bleak, there's something wonderful about being able to in
one case live in the bars and clubs of the
East Village and in the other book, you know, the
piano bars, the Upper west Side, a pre east Side,
and it's very hard to totally disengage from that, mostly
(47:13):
because I don't want to.
Speaker 1 (47:25):
If you love historical true crime stories, check out the
audio versions of my books The Ghost Club, All That
Is Wicked, and American Sherlock and Don't Forget. There are
twelve seasons of my historical true crime podcast Tenfold More
Wicked right here in this podcast feed, scroll back and
give them a listen if you haven't already. This has
been an exactly right production. Our senior producer is Alexis M. Morosi.
(47:50):
Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain. This episode was mixed
by John Bradley. Curtis Heath is our composer. Artwork by
Nick Toga. Executive produced by Georgia Hardstark, Karen Kilgarriff and
Danielle Kramer. Listen to Wicked Words on the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Follow Wicked
(48:11):
Words on Instagram at tenfold More Wicked, and on Facebook
at wicked Words Pod
This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
The key thing to know about his death is something
that a jurors said to me. He said, we meaning
the jury, We all knew that havesinth the police, Michael
Stewart would still be alive.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor
in Austin, Texas. I'm also the co host of the
podcast Buried Bones on Exactly Right, and throughout my career,
research for my many audio and book projects has taken
me around the world. On Wicked Words, I sit down
with the people I've met along the way, amazing writers, journalists, filmmakers,
(00:52):
and podcasters who have investigated and reported on notorious true
crime cases. This is about the choices writers mate, both
good and bad, and it's a deep dive into the
unpublished details behind their stories. We've had journalists Elon green
On before to talk about his fantastic book Last Call.
(01:13):
His new book is about an inspiring young black artist
in nineteen eighties New York. Michael Stewart ended up dead
after encountering a Transit Authority police officer at a Fourteenth
Street subway station. In Manhattan late one night. Witnesses say
the police beat him to death, and it made national headlines.
Green tells me about his book The Man Nobody Killed, Life,
(01:37):
Death and Art in Michael Stuart's New York. So, I
lived in New York for almost ten years, and I
lived in the West Village and then the East Village.
So as soon as I read Union Square and the
subway there, I thought, oh boy, I mean, it's so
it's so weird when things happen that are so important,
(02:00):
you know, you don't live in that city anymore. And
then all of a sudden, you're right there. Man, I
could just feel it. But I wasn't there in the eighties.
Before we talk about Michael Stewart and what happens, why
don't you just tell me a little bit about that
time period, which sounds just harrowing. Is probably an understatement
for living in certain parts of the city, and particularly
for being a black man in the city.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
Yeah, I mean, the city was coming, you know, still
coming out of the fiscal crisis of the mid seventies,
but you know, as a near bankruptcy. The fiscal problems
spawned the possibly the most famous headline in the history
of tabloids forward to city drop dead. So by nineteen
(02:42):
eighty three things are still really bad. You have, you know,
underfunded public works all over the place. Subways are still
falling apart. You know, parks are in bad shape, street
lights be non existent. I mean, you know, compared to
(03:02):
the way they were in the mid seventies, they're on
the upswing. But that's saying very little, quite frankly. And
you know, we're not that far from the period where
the city paused hiring police for a couple of years,
which is a measure that seems unfathomable now, but it
(03:24):
does give you a sense of how bad things were.
Speaker 1 (03:29):
Now, what were the racial tensions like in New York.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
I mean, in some ways, I kind of think it's
just part and parcel, because in neighborhoods that were predominantly black,
they were overpoliced, and in neighborhoods that were predominantly white,
like parts of these village, well, it's a kind of
a rough time to be a black person, you know,
(03:55):
because you're in the minority. You're a minority in the minority,
and the minority and when are there not racial tensions
in New York City? You know, once you get out
of the eighties, you get Crown Heights. Before the eighties,
you know, you've got riots in Harlem. It's it's that's
part of New York unfortunately, and all of this is
(04:18):
certainly exacerbated I think it's fair to say by a
very large and active police force who practiced broken windows,
probably before broken windows was even a thing.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
What is broken windows?
Speaker 2 (04:35):
As I understand it, You know, a sort of a
capsule description of broken windows is the notion that you
can make a significant decrease in crime by cracking down
on sort of petty infractions, and I guess the opposite
being true. So the like the idea of, you know,
(04:58):
if you finish fair beating or a graffiti or something
like that, that will it will have a downstream effect
on other crimes. And seems to be a lot of
disagreement about the extent to which that is true, But
that's the idea of believe can you do that?
Speaker 1 (05:17):
Though, if you are an underfunded police force, under man
police force, I mean, aren't you just putting out the
biggest fires at that point in a city as large
as as New York City is?
Speaker 2 (05:28):
Yeah, I mean it's quite possible. Also that the city
was not yet practicing that may have actually started under
Ray Kelly. I'm not quite sure. And then the since
it doesn't come up in the book, it's possible the
broken windows was not a thing yet, but I mean
it is true. I mean they were the city was
not equipped to police itself in that period. You know,
(05:52):
this was a decade before the transit police merged with
the NYPD, and so you know, transit police were under
the auspices of the MTA. They were different from city
police in that they controlled solo versus in pairs. While
(06:14):
they made the same amount of money, they were given
very little respect and often very poor equipment. They had
radios that often didn't work, but was told one story
about how they had to share batteries basically, And so
all of these these macro conditions set up a situation
(06:39):
where you have subways that are falling apart. They're being
policed by people who by virtue of how they're trained
and by you know, solo patrolling of kind of hair
trigger personalities. Because it is a very dangerous time to
be doing that job. Is that the killing of Michael
(07:03):
Stewart was not specifically inevitable, but generally.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
So you appeared on the show a while back for
another book that is set in New York about the
same time right was Last Call around the same time period.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
About eight years later, and of course somewhat different neighborhoods, which,
as someone who lived in New York knows that that's
a different world.
Speaker 1 (07:26):
Yeah, absolutely, but still you know, that story very much
was digging into the culture of policing different jurisdictions, and
then you know, vulnerable victims, marginalized victims in a serial
killer who was targeting gay men. So with this book,
did you have to approach it differently than you did
(07:47):
Last Call? Or did you see enough parallels where you
felt like you had a good handle on at least
sort of the eighties and you know, how to explore
this in a way where you're highlighting the victim and
really digging into the in this case, one victim, and
then sort of taking that person and expanding on the issues,
the social issues in that time period in that city.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
It's interesting that you put it that way, because certainly,
as I was working on this book, I didn't really
think of Last Call at all in my head, with
the exception of you know, taking place in Manhattan. For
the most part, I saw almost no overlap. Do you
have the same district attorney in Manhattan, Robert Morganhaugh, And
(08:32):
he plays a larger role in this book than he
didn't Last Call by far. It was a really different world,
a different animal, and the way I was telling the
story was also much different. So the things that worked
or didn't work in Last Call didn't really carry over.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
Well, let's talk about Michael Stewart in this case. So
paint a picture of who we're talking about here, because
Michael becomes, you know, not just a victim and not
simply somebody who people can look at and advocate for.
I mean, this becomes a phenomena. And so we'll talk
about that a little bit, but paint a picture of
who Michael was.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
Michael Stewart is a twenty five year old black man,
five foot eleven, maybe one hundred and forty pounds, soilken, wet,
exceedingly handsome, quiet, thoughtful. He's a part of the East
Village firmament, you know, certainly not at the center of it.
But he worked at the Pyramid Club, which was, you know,
(09:33):
a really important part of the art and music scene.
And he was dating a woman who was also on
and off dating Jean Michelle Boscia. He appeared in Madonna's
first music video for the song Everybody. He was DJing.
Not that long before his death. He worked a party
(09:56):
for Maripol, who was Madonna's stylist. All of which is
to say he had a lot in common with a
lot of people of his era and in that neighborhood,
in that he was aspiring. You know, he was certainly
accomplishing things to further whatever his goals in life would
(10:16):
have been. But he certainly wasn't there yet.
Speaker 1 (10:19):
How did he get to that spot? What was his
family like and his upbringing and all of that.
Speaker 2 (10:25):
I don't know that his upbringing had much of anything
to do with he. He lived in Fort Green with
his mother and father and siblings. His mom was a teacher,
his father worked for the Metropolitan Transit Authority, and like
a lot of kids who had an interest in art
(10:46):
and music and photography, he was going into the city
for concerts and gallery openings, and so even though he
lived in Brooklyn, he was spending his time in the
East Village. In the East Village in those years was
an unbelievably small intimate place, and so I think he
(11:08):
very quickly, also by virtue of how he looked, you know,
found himself to the proximity of quite amazing people.
Speaker 1 (11:15):
Well, tell me about his art specifically, I mean, can
you describe it and then tell me what its representation
was to him? What kind of drove him towards this
kind of art?
Speaker 2 (11:23):
I mean, his art was not extraordinary, you know. I
think there was some that seemed to be done with
colored pencils, some that looked like crayon. There was also
some painting. His art was not distinguished. He was not
a phenom, not a prodigy like most people, you know,
(11:44):
he was someone who in his early and mid twenties
was still trying to find his way. You know, I think,
like a lot of people in the East Village, his art,
you know, brings to mind the people that were around him,
whether you know that be Bascia or Keith Harring or
George Condo and all these people that were quite clearly
(12:06):
on their way up.
Speaker 1 (12:10):
Did he have any interactions that you know about with NYPD,
you know, before any of this starts to happen, I mean,
did he have run ins? Was he ever profile that
you know of well.
Speaker 2 (12:21):
On the NYPD side, I know that there had been
an arrest at one point, I think from marijuana possession.
I don't know a great deal about that. It came
out during the trial. And then as far as transit police.
In an interview, one of his coworkers at the Pyramid
(12:41):
talked about how whenever they would be on the subway,
the transit police would inevitably be sitting next to him
and not to her, a white woman. But that did
not ever escalate into something beyond, you know, casual harassment.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
Well, tell me what happens on September fifteen, nineteen eighty three,
or do we need to go back a few days.
Just start where you think you need to start.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
You know, September fifteenth, nineteen eighty three. You know, he
had begun the night at the Pyramid Club. He'd ended
up there just because he had biked into the city
spend some time with his on again, off again girlfriend.
He was unemployed at that point. He had been fired
(13:25):
by the Pyramid I think a couple of months before
for not being aggressive enough. So he ends up at
the Pyramid and a little after midnight calls a woman
named Patricia who he had met once before, but I
think they had kind of clicked, and so she shows up, oh,
I think around twelve thirty, and they spend time downstairs
(13:48):
at the pyramid, sharing the drink, and then they leave
and decide to walk a bit. They share a cigarette
on a stoop in the village, and she she has
to get home, and he decides he has to get home.
And I believe she lived in Manhattan, and of course
he lived in Brooklyn. So they piled into a cab
(14:10):
and she drops him off at the first Avenue fourteenth
Street subway. They exchange a kiss and he says, I'll
talk to you tomorrow, and he walks down the subway steps,
and that's the last time that she ever sees him conscious.
Speaker 1 (14:30):
What would that particular subway, or maybe any subways in
TA what would that have been like at that time? Midnight?
Want to happen at night? What would that be like?
Would that be a dangerous space to be in for anybody?
Or was it relatively safe? Do you think?
Speaker 2 (14:46):
I'm not really sure how to answer that, because I
don't think spaces in New York tend to be inherently
safe or unsafe. It always depends on who you are.
Doesn't it. I lived in Brooklyn Queen's for a dozen years,
and not once did I ever feel on sight didn't
(15:07):
matter where I was, because everywhere you go, it's just people, right,
And so no, I don't think there was anything particularly
dangerous or risky about the fourteenth Street First Avenue subway.
It was certainly, you know, filthy, like every other subway
station in those years. I got the sense that it was,
(15:28):
you know, pretty unpopulated, due mostly to a lack of
other accounts of people seeing him when he was down there.
You know, the only person he would run into that
night was John Caustick, a young transit officer who had
just come on shift and had come down the subway
steps and, according to him, saw Michael deface the subway
(15:53):
wall with a magic marker.
Speaker 1 (15:55):
Well, let me ask real quick, just a couple of
sort of functional things. One cameras or the cameras at
this time period in the subway.
Speaker 2 (16:02):
If there are I have not heard about it, I'm.
Speaker 1 (16:04):
Assuming no token takers are no?
Speaker 2 (16:07):
Yes? And yes, in fact, there was one on duty
on the what they call the mezzanine level, so below ground,
not at the train level.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
So is this happening before the turnstiles or past the
turnstiles where he's got this magic marker out allegedly according
to the police.
Speaker 2 (16:27):
Yes, this has past the turnstiles on the train platform presumably.
I know I sounded a little speculative and hedging about this,
but that's because I've never seen evidence that it actually happened.
And so Officer Caustic arrests him and takes him up
to the mezzanine level by the token clerk, and depending
(16:50):
on who you ask, he either sprints up the stairs
or walks very fast, but either way, John Caustic eventually,
you know, catches up with Michael and he has called
I believe it was called ten thirteen, which is, you know,
(17:11):
just a call for assistance, and soon enough other transit
police from District four, which was the precinct in the
northwest corner of Union Square, show up and the plan
was to take Michael to the district and book him for,
(17:33):
among other things, essentially graffiti. But what ends up happening,
and again this is a little speculative because Michael was
not around to testify to it. One way or the other.
It is said that he kicked a seat, you know,
essentially tried to get away, and they get to the precinct.
They park right around the subway entrance, and when they
(17:56):
get Michael out, he makes a run for it. He
runs into one of the transit officers, or might be
an Emergency Services unit officer, and very quickly there are
eleven transit police surrounding him, all white, because some come
up from the precinct to join the ones that are
(18:18):
already there, and they decide that they have to subdue him,
and so, in full view of dozens of freshmen at
the Parsons School of Design who are either awake or
about to be awake, they kick him, hit him, beat
(18:38):
him with a night stick, and it's not really clear
how long the assault goes on, but eventually they use
what is essentially fixed saran rap I guess gause to
bind his legs so that you know, he would stop kicking.
I suppose. Then they would handcuff him behind his back,
(19:01):
and then he was hogtied, which was illegal. He was
carried over to an Emergency Services vehicle and essentially swung
into the trunk, as one of the witnesses said to me,
like a bag of mulch. He is next deposited at
Bellevue the middle of the night, and the doctors managed
(19:23):
to resuscitate his heart because he was not breathing, but
he's comatose and over the next thirteen days never agained
consciousness and dies September twenty eighth, nineteen eighty three.
Speaker 1 (19:40):
Now I had remembered that there was also talk of
maybe he was either restrained or choked with what a
billy club or something like that, so that was also there.
What was the determined cause of death when it was
all said and done.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
The problem with determining cause of death is that he
died is after being in a coma for nearly two weeks, right,
and so the body does not look as it did
in the immediate aftermath of the beating.
Speaker 1 (20:12):
So it's trauma basically. I mean, that's enough.
Speaker 2 (20:14):
I think, yeah, I mean, it's you know, some a
number of a number of factors. But I think the
key thing to know about his death is something that
a juror said to me. He said, we meaning the jury,
we all knew that absence the police, Michael Stewart would
still be alive.
Speaker 1 (20:33):
And the reason I asked Elon about the cause of
death is, you know, I've dealt with especially in history,
but so many cases where you have this sort of
group of people involved in a murder, and it's so
important to determine what the cause of death was to
be able to nail down one of them and everybody
else's accessories or whatever, secondary or manslaughter. So that's why
(20:54):
I was asking. But I don't know if it matters.
I was just curious.
Speaker 2 (20:57):
Certainly it mattered at the time only because it was
necessary to determine a cause of death to help the
district attorney's investigators investigate the case, you know, and cause
of death mattered ultimately in how the criminal trial ended up.
But the trauma was the trauma, and it was considerable.
(21:20):
And as you say, you know it was a combination
of kicks and billy clubs. You know, there was at
least one or two reports that the night stick was
held to Michael's neck. You had people sitting on his
back to restrain him. You know, this was a young,
(21:43):
thin man, unarmed who just endured horrific trauma.
Speaker 1 (21:49):
So what we can confirm and tell me if this
is right or not, is that he made it down
the stairs of the subway. Pictures just said goodbye to him.
He goes downstairs. He pays, it's a token in He's
not hopping the turnstall or anything like that.
Speaker 2 (22:04):
Actually, okay, there was a report that he had beaten
the fair, but again, what else.
Speaker 1 (22:13):
So maybe maybe not. He gets down there and sort
of vanishes out of the token taker's point of view,
and then next thing the token taker knows is that
he's walking quickly up the stairs. Michael is right with
a transit cop with John Caustick in pursuit, and that's it.
And I'm assuming Caustic said he was, you know, haul
(22:34):
an ass up the stairs to get away from.
Speaker 2 (22:36):
Me, right, And I didn't mention before, But of course
there's a witness to what happens just after he gets
to the top of the stairs. It's a man named
Robert Rodriguez. He's an auxiliary police officer who works at Blimpy,
the sandwich shop by fourteenth Street, First Avenue. He has
(22:57):
spends to be on shift, but he was looking out
the and and the next day he files a police
report and says, you know, I saw this man, you know,
led out of the subway and assaulted. And to my knowledge,
he is the only person at ground level who witnesses
abuse because the students in the freshman dorm, the closest
(23:22):
anyone in that dorm was to the street was the
fourth floor, which is the level at which the dorm began.
Speaker 1 (23:30):
Do their stories line up Roberts and the freshman from
what the freshman could see.
Speaker 2 (23:34):
They essentially are attesting to two different parts of the incident.
It's my impression that the students do not see him
when he is first led up, because they only realize
something is going on downstairs when they start to hear screams.
So there's a lag and then there's all you know.
(23:57):
Of course, there's also a lag between when they first
start to hear screams and when they go over the window,
because just hearing a scream doesn't really mean anything in
New York in nineteen eighty three. So by the time
they see him is directly below the near District four.
Speaker 1 (24:15):
So we get to the hospital. He spends thirteen days
at the hospital in a coma, and then he dies.
Do you know, based on your reporting, did you have
a lot of kind of insider knowledge about what was
happening at Precinct four during these thirteen days or what
were your sources like on the NYPD side.
Speaker 2 (24:35):
Well not NYPD Transit.
Speaker 1 (24:37):
Police, Transit police.
Speaker 2 (24:38):
Sorry, I mean they very quickly lawyer up, you know,
because the police union gets involved as soon as they
get wind of it, and they hire Barrio Golnik, who
was sort of the premier defense lawyer for police at
that point. There's not a great deal probably going on
for most of those thirteen days. The important thing that
(25:00):
happens is that the police are left alone for several
hours in the immediate aftermath of the event, and nobody
is taking their statements because internal affairs refuse to get involved,
you know, refuses to get involved even though by statute
they had to. And then the police are not separated.
(25:24):
I could find no evidence that that was the case,
and their statements are not taken till about ten thirty,
I think, when two ada's from Morgenthal's office show up
to start interviewing them.
Speaker 1 (25:38):
Now, what was the relationship between the District Attorney's office
Morgenthal with the police, transit NYPD, anybody, I mean, is
there a contentious relationship between them? Do we have a
lot of police being arrested for you know, being overly
zellous or abusive with potential suspects and where are we
(25:58):
with that?
Speaker 2 (25:59):
Not a lot of those cases. And I don't think
that their relationship between the NYPD and the Transit Police
and Morgenthal's office was particularly contentious. I believe Morgenthal was
even president of it was the Police Athletic League something
like that. You know, he prosecuted police occasionally, you know,
(26:21):
generally for corruption. There was a separation between his office
and the police because he did not use NYPD to
conduct investigations. He had his own team of investigators who
answered to him. And you know, especially in a case
where police are involved as perpetrators, as as one of
(26:44):
his ADAS said to me, you know, nobody was going
to trust the cops. You know, they were not going
to use the police to investigate the police. Even to
be investigated for something like this and then ultimately to
be charged was a real shock to the system for
police in general. You know, they were furious that this
(27:05):
was happening at all because it was not something that
they were used to.
Speaker 1 (27:09):
So we have two adas from Morganenthal's office come down.
This is about what ten hours or.
Speaker 2 (27:15):
So, after about seven hours, seven eight hours.
Speaker 1 (27:18):
About seven eight hours after Michael's murder. They come and
they interview How many total officers are being looked at
here from that incident?
Speaker 2 (27:31):
Well, I suspect in that initial round they probably talked
to at least Paul eleven that had been above ground
surrounding Michael, But I can't vouch for that for certain.
There's no real record of, you know, what was said.
And when I interviewed the only living ada of the
(27:53):
pair years later, he didn't remember all that much of it.
My guess is that they said almost nothing because I'm
sure that they're a union Rep. Peter Marsala told him
to shut the hell up.
Speaker 1 (28:06):
Okay, So then what happens next? You have the transit
police probably not cooperating. When does Morgenthal think there needs
to be some charges or at least more investigation. Why
is this not brushed under the rug like I'm assuming
other incidents have been.
Speaker 2 (28:21):
Takes a little while, and it doesn't get brushed under
the rug because civil rights leaders, clergy members of the
East village make a huge think about it, and there
are protests in Union Square, at the District Attorney's office,
(28:42):
at the medical Examiner's office, you name it, and sooner
than later charges are not laid. But they a grand
jury is impatent, which you know is the first step
in doing that.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
This is public pressure. But where does it come from.
Is it because of his status as an artist, because
you know, as we've said before, you're speculating this has happened.
Why is this an outrage not coming out for other victims.
Speaker 2 (29:08):
I think it happens in the case of Michael Stewart
because in so far as there is such a thing
as a perfect victim, he is a perfect victim. You know,
aside from the aesthetics, he's good looking, he's not armed
with anything worse than like a marker or a spray
(29:29):
you know, can of spray paint. And so many cops
have surrounded him. The infraction is so banal that it
catches people's attention in a way that I think other
cases did not. But you know, the people around Michael
also were savvy and how they were talking about him.
(29:49):
They did not describe him as like a bar back
at the Pyramid Club. They made sure to emphasize that
this was a you know, a young man of potential
who wanted to be a painter or a model or
a DJ. And it was in some ways a very
easy case to be attracted to if you were writing
(30:13):
for the tabloids, you know, especially once Gabe Pressman, you know,
the first TV news journalist, got win to the case
and became obsessed with it. You know, once Pressman started
covering it and he was obsessed, all the other reporters
in the city on that beat followed suit.
Speaker 1 (30:31):
You have written, I think quite a bit about why
true crime creators pick the stories that they pick. And
you know, you have an article that I highly recommend
people reading because it's great with the appeal called the Enduring,
pernicious Whiteness of True Crime. And you know, I think
that that certainly spills over into all different categories, not
(30:54):
just people of color. But you know, this is a
different situation. Do you think it's that Michael's image reflects
kind of the every person in society that is not
quote unquote in a high risk lifestyle, which I hate.
That phrase really irritates me. I mean, it's just so
it's like that phrase high risk lifestyle is laden with
(31:16):
judgment and like you should have known kind of That's
the way I feel. So when listeners, when you guys
hear me react like that, that's what it's behind it's
just like an accusation in a way, you know. So
do you think because Michael was sort of, you know,
this aspiring artist and you know, he hopnobbed with people,
and he was good looking, do you think that that
reflects on the people who are interested in the story
(31:37):
they think it could be me.
Speaker 2 (31:38):
Yes, I mean, and certainly I think that there was
that aspect to it among black New Yorkers because again,
he's not armed, he's done nothing to incur the wrath
of eleven police officers. Now, you couldn't not sort of
underestimate how important so that the East village got involved
(32:01):
with this. And the reason that they got involved and
never really had before, was that they knew Michael. You know,
it was really all about proximity. They cared because they knew.
So I think you had all of these all of
these factors that, when combined, meant that people just cared
more about this particular case of police brutality than anything
(32:23):
that had come before it. And one more thing, one
of those coincidences of history, there are the first ever
hearings on congressional hearings on police brutality going on in
the city. As all of this is unfolded. It was
sparked by a year's worth of I think a year's
worth of police brutality cases that were finally enough for
(32:49):
John Conyers to say, Okay, we're going to panel witnesses
and hold hearings in Harlem. And it just so happened
that this was going on at the same time.
Speaker 1 (33:01):
And this happened I don't know the exact time, but
within twelve or thirteen years earlier than Rodney King, which
I imagine is probably is that the next biggest high
profile case like this.
Speaker 2 (33:14):
I actually think that it's because of Rodney King that
people generally don't remember Michael Stewart. Okay, because why do
people remember Rodney King. It's not because of what he did.
It's not even the specifics of what the police did.
Said it was filmed.
Speaker 1 (33:33):
Yeah, okay, there are indictments, and tell me what happens next.
I'm assuming that the transit police are not just on
the defensive. They must be going on the offensive with
you know, you said there's a pretty high profile defense
attorney there. How many officers are ultimately indicted in this.
Speaker 2 (33:53):
You know, eventually six officers are charged, you know, three
I believe is the second degree manslaughter all six or
charge of perjury and these are not terribly severe charges
given the damage ton to Michael Stewart, but they're about
the best I think that the district attorney could do,
(34:16):
given that no witness could say that any single transit
officer committed a specific act.
Speaker 1 (34:27):
Okay, is John Caustick in there?
Speaker 2 (34:29):
He is John Costick?
Speaker 1 (34:31):
Was his for perjury or was his for actually participating
in the assaults?
Speaker 2 (34:34):
Both manslaughter and perjury?
Speaker 1 (34:36):
So tell me what happens next. There are these charges,
and there's ultimately six of them. What is the reaction
of this advocacy group that has taken up the case.
Do they think this is ridiculous and these obviously these
charges should be heavier or are there more protests?
Speaker 2 (34:54):
Well, I mean it isn't really even so much, you know,
an advocacy group. It's really a.
Speaker 1 (35:00):
The movement almost.
Speaker 2 (35:01):
Yeah. There's all sorts of people, you know, Like I said,
you have civil rights leaders and clergy, but you also artists.
You have the Michael Stewart Friends Committee, which is made
up of people in the village and filmmakers. Basically everybody,
with the exception of people on the side of the police.
(35:22):
Agrees that these charges are weak.
Speaker 1 (35:26):
So then what is the next step once we have
these indictments.
Speaker 2 (35:30):
Well, eventually it goes to trial and dozens of students testify.
They're now at that point by then, I think they're juniors.
They no longer live in the dorms in Union Square.
The police choose not to testify, but in what ends
(35:51):
up being a very significant decision, the prosecution as their
grand jury testimony read to the jury. The reason that
this happens is because it was one of the only ways,
if not the only way, for the prosecution to establish
that the police were actually there. But it ends up
(36:15):
being a really double edged sword because the jury, while
hearing that the police are present for the beating of
Michael Stewart, here's in the voice of the police testimony
that they did not do it.
Speaker 1 (36:29):
So what is that? What are they saying exactly? Are
they saying that not one person everybody's denying that they
were the ones who were inflicting the kicks and the
beatings and everything else, or are they just saying, listen,
you know, we don't really want to know what happened.
We just know this was a dangerous guy. He was
fighting against us, and we subdued him the way we
were trained to subdue someone.
Speaker 2 (36:49):
Basically, they testify to everything that happens right up to
the point where they're outside of the priests and under
the freshman dorm beating and kicking him. So the jury
hears testimony that no police officer hit Michael, kicked Michael,
(37:12):
or choked him with a night stick. That's the takeaway.
They say, we were there, but we did not do
any of those.
Speaker 1 (37:20):
Well, what's the explanation for what happened to him?
Speaker 2 (37:23):
Then?
Speaker 1 (37:23):
When they have all these witnesses.
Speaker 2 (37:25):
Essentially that he fell of his own volition and you know,
his heart stops because of essentially alcohol induced in excitement.
Speaker 1 (37:36):
And they did toxicology on him and everything. What did
they find in his system?
Speaker 2 (37:40):
You know, I believe his alcohol level was I think
point two two, you know, about double the legal limit,
and so you know, he did have alcohol in his system,
but that was not nearly high enough for someone like
him to you know, essentially suffer a heart attack.
Speaker 1 (37:59):
We would think any medical examiner or pathologists who a corner,
any of these people would be able to identify a
fall against a curb, even several falls against a Kurber
on the ground versus the kicks, those marks would be
pretty distinct, especially on his neck. So what's the explanation
for that? I mean, really, what is the explanation for that?
I hope did the ada's really nail this down or Morgenthal?
(38:21):
Is that trial or is that the grand jury where
they really talk about that.
Speaker 2 (38:24):
Well, the chief Medical Examiner of New York, Eliot Gross,
ends up changing his mind on cause of death between
his testimony to the grand jury and when he eventually
testifies at the criminal trial. You know, this is one
of the major reasons why ultimately the police are acquitted
because you know, as John Caustics lawyer tells the jury,
(38:47):
you have a multiple choice cause of death, so you
can't convict.
Speaker 1 (38:50):
So they're all acquitted, these six guys.
Speaker 2 (38:53):
Five guys and one woman.
Speaker 1 (38:54):
And then what's the reaction in the media. Well, I
haven't asked about the media at all. What has been
the reaction of the media at this point.
Speaker 2 (39:01):
It's interesting to revisit the coverage of the Michael Stewart
case because it's really good. It's not at all what
you would expect tabloid's story of the early eighties to be.
I think that's purely an accident, because the people who
(39:22):
covered this case, aside from Gabe Pressman with Jimmy Breslin,
Murray Kempton, Leonard Levitt, who's a very underrated tabloid reporter,
often wrote about police, and then once it went to trial,
you had a young New York Times reporter named Isabelle Wilkerson.
So you had some of the great journalists of their
(39:44):
era that just happened to be writing about this case
and doing extraordinary journalism.
Speaker 1 (39:51):
Did any of the journalists in eighty three or I
guess this is eighty five at this point, is that
when that's how okay? So to any of the journalists
in New York in eighty five dig up anything against
the police, or did anybody have any any good enterprise
journalism happening where it was sort of a gotcha?
Speaker 2 (40:07):
The best scoop on that front was actually from Newsday's
transit columnist, Elis Henniken was his name, and he got
a hold of John Caustick's psychological report from when he
applied to be a city officer because he had originally
(40:28):
wanted to be on the NYPD and he failed the
psychological exam and Ellis Henniken got a hold of it
and ran a story.
Speaker 1 (40:38):
And he passed the one for the transit police.
Speaker 2 (40:41):
Yes, they just administered a different test and he passed.
Speaker 1 (40:44):
I'm assuming there's no markings on the walls or what
happens when they go look. I know that that's a
moot point, but you know, the establishing the credibility of
cost it. Is there a marker anywhere? Was there marker
on him anywhere?
Speaker 2 (40:56):
Not that I'm aware of.
Speaker 1 (40:57):
No, So these guys get acquitted. Is their outrage again.
Speaker 2 (41:00):
Yes, but it's pretty brief. I mean, I think that
the acquittal of these police it was both expected but
also incredibly demoralizing, you know, and I'm sure it was
made worse by the fact that the jury deliberated. I
think for five days people probably thought there was a
(41:20):
real chance that these guys were actually going to be convicted,
and for them to be sent home was devastating. You know.
When the verdicts were announced and the police's side of
the courtroom erupted, you know, Michael's mother looked over and said,
I'm just going to let them enjoy this. You know,
I think it was it was almost a foregone conclusion.
(41:43):
I mean, they were being prepared for it. You know,
this is nineteen eighty three. It's still extremely hard to
get a convinctioned. I mean, it's very hard to even
get indictments, much less a conviction these days. So imagine
this happening in nineteen eighty three, when I didn't talk
to a single witness to the beating that before that
(42:06):
night had a remotely critical feelings about police.
Speaker 1 (42:10):
Now, you know, I think with these kinds of stories,
you have the victim either totally forgotten because you know,
people are focusing on the killers or whoever you know,
or the themes behind it. But then hopefully you're able
to circle back to Michael and think about, you know,
why one young man moved so many people, and it
(42:33):
obviously comes down to relationships and the circumstances. I know,
do you think when it's all said and done. I know,
we're saying that he's you know, been forgotten sort of
in history as a significant figure in things like this
happening because partially because of Rodney King. But do you
think that that Michael has had a sufficient legacy or
(42:53):
remembrance here considering everything that's happened, or you know, I
mean I don't know how his mother felt about that.
Speaker 2 (42:59):
Well, well, I think, as with any of these cases,
it's it's kind of a passive legacy. Rodney King's legacy
is not because of who he is. It's because of
the things that were happening around him, in the same
way with emmittt Till. And you know, to me, when
(43:21):
I think about the legacy of the Michael Stewart case,
on the one hand, shore you could say that there's
an artistic legacy you would do the right thing and
defacement and at Tony Morrison play and maybe you can
say that you can draw something of a line between
the Michael Stewart prosecution and the George Floyd case. And
(43:46):
you know, the charges against Derek Chauvin, you know, part
one of the charges was, you know, essentially the same
as in the Stewart case. You're being charged for not
doing the job you were supposed to do defending the prisoner.
But in my most cynical moments, which is most of
the time, I think about something that the defense attorney,
(44:07):
Ron Koby said to me when I asked him what
the legacy the case was, and he said that the
Stuart case was so clear cut he wasn't armed, and
all these police around him, and everybody knew if the
police did it, And when those officers were quitted, it
sent a signal to all the other cops in the
city that they could get away with anything. And the
(44:29):
message was received.
Speaker 1 (44:31):
And this is their defense attorney. Is that who this
is telling you that?
Speaker 2 (44:34):
No, this is Ron Kooby, he says, still practicing. He
worked with He was the partner of William Kunstler. He
happened to represent a couple of the people that I
wrote about in the book, so I was in touch
with him.
Speaker 1 (44:45):
Did you end up ever getting hold of any of
the officers or they passed away?
Speaker 2 (44:49):
At this point I talked a couple of times to
John Tostik, against the advice of his attorney.
Speaker 1 (44:55):
Did he give you any information that helped you at
all or illuminated anything?
Speaker 2 (45:00):
Not in any kind of profound way. But as a journalist,
when you get somebody like that on the phone, you're
kind of grateful for anything you get. I mean, the
same was true when I interviewed Bernard Getz. I mean, again,
he's not a profound person, but you know, it was
nice to get him on the record about why he
you know, didn't take Joan Rivers as offer of bail
(45:22):
money and what his thoughts were on Jimmy Breslin. But
you know, you're never going to get introspection from these people.
Speaker 1 (45:29):
Were you able to pack this away once the book
was done? And I'd actually ask you that about Last Call?
Also when you're digging into these cases, you know, I'm
generally pretty far back in the nineteen hundreds and eighteen hundreds,
but you are talking to people who are still involved,
you know, and people who still care about Michael and
about these men in Last Call, these victims. Is it
(45:51):
hard for you to pack this stuff away? Or are
you kind of at a point in your career with
everything that you report on that you're able to sort
of move past it and remember things and you know,
think about the victims when you when you need to
where every once in a while. Or is it hard
when you complete these books?
Speaker 2 (46:06):
Yes? And no, I mean it's it's hard in the
sense that I don't have like trauma or something that
lingers from the work, But it's very hard to remove
yourself from a project like this because of the relationships
that you build up with the sources. I mean, you know,
you get used to talking to people, whether it's Michael's
(46:29):
girlfriend or Patricia Gross, one of the members of the
United Freedom Front the door talking to her. You know,
these are all really interesting people, and the pleasures of
working on the Mando Maty Killed your Last Call is
to be able to live in that world to some extent.
(46:49):
It's really nice. Even though the topic of these books
is bleak, there's something wonderful about being able to in
one case live in the bars and clubs of the
East Village and in the other book, you know, the
piano bars, the Upper west Side, a pre east Side,
and it's very hard to totally disengage from that, mostly
(47:13):
because I don't want to.
Speaker 1 (47:25):
If you love historical true crime stories, check out the
audio versions of my books The Ghost Club, All That
Is Wicked, and American Sherlock and Don't Forget. There are
twelve seasons of my historical true crime podcast Tenfold More
Wicked right here in this podcast feed, scroll back and
give them a listen if you haven't already. This has
been an exactly right production. Our senior producer is Alexis M. Morosi.
(47:50):
Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain. This episode was mixed
by John Bradley. Curtis Heath is our composer. Artwork by
Nick Toga. Executive produced by Georgia Hardstark, Karen Kilgarriff and
Danielle Kramer. Listen to Wicked Words on the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Follow Wicked
(48:11):
Words on Instagram at tenfold More Wicked, and on Facebook
at wicked Words Pod
Host
Kate Winkler Dawson
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