July 14, 2025 • 52 mins
When an 8-year-old disappeared from a homeless shelter in Washington, D.C. in 2014, nobody noticed for 18 days, even her family. Seven years later, Relisha Rudd has never been found. The Through the Cracks podcast investigates gaps in our society and the people who fall through them. Host Jonquilyn Hill asks what could have been done to find Relisha?
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
You know, I was once a little girl with braids
like I could hear that picture. It's so heartbreaking to
think that in such a time of innocence, something terrible
could happen to you.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
I think that really stuck with me.
Speaker 3 (00:29):
I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor
in Austin, Texas.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
I'm also the co.
Speaker 3 (00:35):
Host of the podcast Buried Bones on Exactly Right, and
throughout my career, research for my many audio and book
projects has taken me around the world. On Wicked Words,
I sit down with the people I've met along the way,
amazing writers, journalists, filmmakers, and podcasters who have investigated and
reported on notorious true crime cases. This is about the
(00:58):
choices writers make, both good and bad, and it's a
deep dive into the unpublished details behind their stories. When
an eight year old disappeared from a homeless shelter in Washington,
d C. In twenty fourteen, nobody noticed for eighteen days,
even her family. Seven years later, Relitia Rudd has never
(01:20):
been found. The Through the Cracks podcast investigates gaps in
our society and the people who fall through them. Host
John Quilin Hill asks what could have been done to
find Relitia. Let's start with where you got the story.
Was this PRX approached you about it? Or where did
(01:41):
this come from? No, so it's actually really interesting.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
I went to college here in DC and I stayed
after graduation. And I remember I was on my way
to work at the time. It was twenty fourteen. I
was on the Red Line. People who live in d
C and know the metro system, we'll understand what that means.
And I was getting off at Union Station for work,
which is one of the metro station's closest to the Capitol.
(02:09):
I was, you know, a little Hill producer, on my
way to get some sound or some tape with somebody's congressman.
And I saw Relicious photo in the window of the
Einstein Bagels there, and you know, I remember when she
went missing. That was also twenty fourteen, but it just
(02:29):
blew my mind that her missing photo was still there,
and I think her story stuck with me for a
while after that. And then, you know, also around that time,
we start to see more podcasts. I think of, you know, Cereal,
I think of a few years later in the dark,
and I couldn't help but think relicious story is also
a story that needs to be told. So I pitched
(02:50):
it to the station I was working at at the time, WAMU,
and worked really hard to get that funding and X
came through with a big chunk of it also helped
us develop and distribute it, and from there we hit
the ground running and started telling the story.
Speaker 3 (03:08):
You might disagree with this, but this is one of
the first stories about a person of color who actually
the story gets amplified.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
It sounds like quite a bit.
Speaker 3 (03:17):
I mean, we talk a lot about how true crime
stories or missing people's stories in general, you know, involving
people of color who they just kind of get buried.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
Is it because she's eight or was it because.
Speaker 3 (03:29):
This eighteen day lag between when people last saw her
and when they found out she was missing.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
I think it's a combination of things.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
I think one thankfully, typically when kids go missing, especially
in the district, they're found. You know, if you're at
a bus stop, it's not out of the ordinary to see,
you know, a missing child poster. But often they're found.
It could be a custody you dispute among parents could
be a runaway. I think even in those situations, we
(03:58):
have to treat every situation with a kid like it's
an emergency, but they're eventually found.
Speaker 1 (04:03):
Relicia was not.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
She was only eight years old, and so she also
has this sort of, I guess, for lack of a
better term, the kind of perfect victim story. Because you
know she's young, there's still a sense of innocence there
that people don't necessarily perceive as girls and women get older.
I think it's the amount of time she was missing
before anyone realized. And I also think this was something
(04:27):
that an expert sort of laid out as we were
doing the reporting. The fact that she got so much
attention kind of highlights Oh how little.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
Attention cases like these get. She's sort of this exception
to this rule.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
But I remember she was everywhere, all in the news,
people looking for her. To this day, people get together
and do a search, put up posters, hoping that she's
still out there somewhere.
Speaker 3 (04:52):
Well, and you know, you and I have talked about
where to start with this story. One thing I'll be
interested in is learning a little bit about homeless show
in DC.
Speaker 1 (05:01):
This was only eleven years ago.
Speaker 3 (05:03):
I don't know if they've changed dramatically, but that I'm
sure has to be another point. Not only do you
have an eight year old who is vulnerable to begin with,
no matter where you are socioeconomically, but now you've got
a kid who's in a homeless shelter.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
Right, how long had she been there?
Speaker 2 (05:20):
Oh, her family had sort of been in and out
of shelters, bouncing on couches for a while.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
Her mother was evicted.
Speaker 2 (05:28):
And DC admittedly has better tenant laws than a lot
of places. There are lots of protections, lots of opportunities,
but taking advantage of those protections takes time and the
knowledge to do it. And you know, if you're working,
if you're running around after three small children, you maybe
don't necessarily have the time and the resources to do that.
(05:51):
Shelters in DC have changed quite a bit since Relicia
and her family lived in a shelter. Now we have
shelters that are dedicated to families at the eight different
wards around d C, and so that's much different. You know,
they're made for families, but DC general was not a
place that was at any point meant to be a shelter,
(06:14):
especially for families. So DC General was an abandoned hospital.
It's by now RFK Stadium, where you know, eventually they've
they've torn it down, I believe, where eventually, you know,
there's probably going to be a new stadium for the commanders.
But at the time it was an abandoned hospital. So
(06:34):
they turned it into the shelter. Initially, it started as
a hypothermia shelter because when it gets below a certain temperature,
if people are experiencing homelessness, they need a place to go.
And then eventually it turned into a family shelter just
because there were so many families in need.
Speaker 1 (06:49):
It very much looked like a hospital.
Speaker 2 (06:52):
One of the organizers. I talked to the executive director
of the Homeless Children's Playtime Project, which is an organization
that creates space and playtime for children in homo shelters,
Jimila Larson. She was saying that they would go and
there would still be boxes of you know, medical record
documents and kids. You know, you got to go to
(07:16):
the bathroom in the middle of the night. They were
required to be with their parents at all times, and
it was sort of this dormitory style shower, not necessarily
a place where you know, what if you have a
little girl and she just started her period and you
got to get up in the middle of the night.
Now you got to bring the whole entire family to
the bathroom. There was even an incident that was very
scary for families and for the person who was injured,
(07:38):
where a man was shot and his friends saw the
DC General sign and assumed it was a hospital they
drove there.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
It was not a working hospital.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
The families were freaking out, the guy who was shot
was freaking out. It was just it was a really
bad situation. And in fact, before Relicia disappeared, there was
a fight overbuilding a playground there. You know, the families
they wanted a playground, and the city pushed back, I
think in part because it would have really signified a
sense of permanence and would have sort of let people know, oh,
(08:09):
their children here, And it was not a place for children.
So it was just it was a really it was
not a great place to grow up. And I think
that also put Relicia and her family in a vulnerable
position to end up befriending this man, who it turned
out was really dangerous.
Speaker 1 (08:27):
Tell me about Relicia, and then I want to know
about her family.
Speaker 3 (08:31):
We get to hear from her in your podcast. How
does that audio come about? I mean it's just for me,
heartbreaking knowing what was going to happen, but just as
sweet as can be when you hear it.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
Yeah, I mean that video some of the last video
of her. It was recorded with the Homeless Children's Playtime Project.
You know, you do these fundraising videos. You get the
kids to say, yeah, we need a place to play.
We love to play. And it's funny because when you
look at that full video, you know, she's such a
little girl, like she's being goofy. She has her hands
in her face, she's like being silly and they're off
(09:06):
kind of like okay, can you do it again? I mean,
we all know what it's like to coax a kid
into a picture or a video when you're doing something.
And yeah, she's just this little girl acting like this
little girl. And that's some of the last video we
have of her. She loved arts and crafts. She was
the big sister. And I think you know those running
(09:27):
there's that running joke about how oldest sisters and families
should probably unionize because they just do so much, they
take on so much responsibility, and that was Relicia. You know,
her brothers did have a few behavioral problems, but Relicia
was quiet. She was well behaved, and because of that,
I think sometimes she got lost in the shuffle from
(09:47):
her brothers who kind of needed more attention from her family.
Speaker 3 (09:51):
So tell me about her part of the family that's
actually in the shelter. It's her brothers and Relicia and
then her mom or is there anybody else.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
Right, So in the shelter it was Relitia, her younger brothers,
her mother, and then sometimes her stepfather Antonio. Antonio wasn't
always around because he would get work, you know, working
construction sites, would often go to Pennsylvania so he could
earn money from the family and come back. But her
family that was in the shelter, it was her her
(10:19):
brothers and her mom. She did have family that was
outside the shelter. She had an aunt she would spend
time with. She had a grandmother she would spend time with.
It was it was a mix, but mainly her place
of residence was the shelter.
Speaker 3 (10:34):
Now is her mother in Antonio. Are they considered underemployed
or unemployed? I mean, I know that you said he
would go out and stuff. I guess I'm asking how
did they end up at this shelter aside from being evicted?
Speaker 1 (10:47):
What led to all of that?
Speaker 2 (10:49):
Yeah, it's really the eviction because once it's on, it's
very difficult to find other places that will rent to you.
DC is a very expensive city, even more so now,
but very expensive at the time, and you know, their
native Washingtonians. In fact, her stepfather, Antonio, also has a
really tragic story. He was put into foster care as
(11:11):
a child because his stepfather murdered his little sister. Oh yeah,
the entire family basically got broken up and he was
put into foster care. And it was very heartbreaking interviewing
him because all he ever wanted because of that was
to have a family and a family that sticks together,
and then this tragedy hits.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
It was just so cyclical and so heartbreaking.
Speaker 3 (11:37):
Well, we'll talk about Antonio and how he plays into
this a little bit later, because I'm sure you know,
immediately people think, well, he must be you know, the
key suspect, the offender. But you know, let's keep going
with personalities in the family. So you have said that
Relicia was sort of the caretaker, the older sister, and
she had brothers who were a little contankerous, it sounds like.
(11:59):
And then her mom, I mean, are we considering this
a really solid nuclear family despite you know, things that
are happening economically in their lives and instability.
Speaker 2 (12:08):
No, her mom had a lot on her plate as well,
so she grew up in shelters as well, like she
grew up in shelters in Virginia. Also, there's reporting in
the Washington Post like she does have a little bit
of a developmental delay. And she also had Relicia fairly young.
I believe she was nineteen when she had her, and
(12:31):
Relicio's father is considerably older than her mother, you know,
and for all the conversations about age gaps, is just yeah,
it's a sticky situation. She was dealing with a lot,
So she was dealing with her own stuff, plus having
sons with some behavioral issues and a daughter. There was
not a lot of stability there.
Speaker 3 (12:52):
No so in DC shelters in this time period in
twenty fourteen, and again I'm not familiar with them. Now,
were they going to transition this family out of the
shelter into like is there are there work positions available,
Are they pushing forward? Is this a good place to
transition to a more stable life or was this just
(13:15):
a ticket day by day situation.
Speaker 1 (13:17):
According to her mom and her stepfather, I.
Speaker 2 (13:20):
Think at the time it was more taken day by day.
Now in DC, the way people approach homelessness is much different.
You know, you have rapid rehousing, you have programs that
get people into housing, that help with job training, that
help with a series of things.
Speaker 1 (13:36):
But that was not the landscape at the time.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
There really weren't as many resources being poured into it
as there are now. The approach the city has taken
and has changed in a major part to relicious disappearance.
Speaker 3 (13:52):
Actually, isn't that so? That's awful? And this was halfway
through Obama's second term? Is that about right now?
Speaker 1 (14:00):
Twenty fourteen?
Speaker 3 (14:00):
Yeah, Okay, was there anything when when this really was
rolling and there was panic, you know, eighteen days later?
Was was he involved in any way or did he
help amplefly?
Speaker 2 (14:10):
I don't think so. It really felt like such a
local story, okay, like you would occasionally see it on
the cable news. You would occasionally see things, but when
it was everywhere, it was everywhere locally there were vigils.
I mean, people went searching, but it was also it
was major to Washingtonians.
Speaker 3 (14:30):
Yeah, and I think when you're in the middle of
that search, kind of like I think about Gabby Petito thing,
when it is like a clear and present danger.
Speaker 1 (14:37):
Somebody is in danger, let's figure out where they are.
Speaker 3 (14:40):
I'm not sure the themes pop up immediately, like the
people are not going to be talking about homeless shelter
safety immediately.
Speaker 1 (14:47):
They're just gonna say, where's this kid? Right?
Speaker 2 (14:49):
Yeah, exactly Like when I when I think about Through
the Cracks, I've kind of described it, it's almost a
trojan horse, like, yes, it's this true crime story, but
it's also a trojan horse to get at home listeners
policy in America. And it's kind of like, not until
you're in it for a little bit you realize, oh wait,
this is about affordable housing. This is about how we
think of kids, how we treat kids, childcare, and the
(15:12):
accessibility to that. I think what's interesting and part of
the reason we called it Through the Cracks is like, yes,
ideally your family is your first social safety net, but
there are safety nets in place when that safety net
falls through and there were just so many, so many
(15:32):
safety nets that she fell through.
Speaker 3 (15:34):
Yeah, when people criticize true crime and put all of
us under this umbrella of you know, the stuff that
really is sensationalized and really you know, glorifies the killer
and ignores the victims, it makes me really angry because
you know, you cannot put us all under that umbrella.
True crime is powerful in some ways, in a lot
(15:54):
of ways because of this, because of a podcast like
Through the Cracks, and you know, anything else that I
think is of high quality, hopefully the things that I do,
which is, you know you are yes, you're talking about
a death. Yes there's drama, Yes there are characters there,
and you know you're looking for a resolution. It follows
that storyline that people say good stories are supposed to be.
(16:15):
But it always there's always a circumstance for why it
happened that you can talk about. It's whether you take
advantage of that and actually want to inform people about
it or not.
Speaker 1 (16:24):
And you do, Yeah, thank you. I mean I think
that's the thing.
Speaker 2 (16:27):
Like, I think the definition of true crime has shifted
quite a bit, and you.
Speaker 1 (16:34):
Know, people call it guilty pleasure or whatever.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
But I've always been sort of like into the true
crime of it all, Like I will always throw on
a documentary, I'll always see what's going on. But I
think the way we think of true crime has also changed,
both with like through the cracks, but I also think
in the dark, like we're not just talking about there
are all types of victims, like wrongful conviction that is
also a victim that is also getting into like these
(16:57):
big systemic things, you know, both people who are wrongly convicted,
people who are victims of crimes. Like it's all about
vulnerable populations and how they're treated or not treated.
Speaker 1 (17:11):
I really think that's like the heart of it.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
And I think some of the appeal of true crime
I don't know, Like, yes, I guess people lead into
like oh, it's so salacious, but I think there is
also this sense of like an attempt at control, like
maybe if I know what's out there, there's a way
for me to protect myself and there may not be frankly,
and that is honestly scary, but I do not fault
(17:34):
those of us who try.
Speaker 3 (17:36):
And I think that there isn't a need and a
lot of us and maybe this is just me projecting
to want to see some good something happen at the
end of one of these stories, like Okay, this person
did this awful thing, or this young girl is gone.
Speaker 1 (17:50):
Can we you know, it's God.
Speaker 3 (17:52):
I hope something good happens, and when it doesn't, you know,
it's I think it can be difficult. That's why untulf
cases are upsetting for me. And we'll get to to
that more.
Speaker 1 (18:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (18:01):
Yeah, shifting back to you as a journalist, had you
ever reported this much on homeless shelters or just the
homeless population before all of this started.
Speaker 2 (18:11):
No, this was this was a totally new endeavor for me.
Prior to this. You know, I worked as an audio producer.
I joke that I'm a producer's rights advocate, like producers
they make these pop why or would we be without
you producers? Thank you producers.
Speaker 1 (18:28):
But yeah, it was.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
It was a really big leap as far as skills go.
Like I'd always loved interviewing people, I always loved talking,
but it was, Oh, we're going through documents, we're doing
Foyer requests, We're doing this brand new sort of journalism
that you have not done before. And so I really
appreciate the story for that as well. The fact that
(18:52):
it stretched me beyond my comfort zone. We also did
a lot of the reporting during COVID and oh my gosh,
like just hopping in a car, wrapping a microphone in
a saran wrap, going to a park to interview her
family members.
Speaker 1 (19:09):
It was wild. It really was. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (19:12):
I reported during COVID too, and it was pretty scary.
I mean I did some before and then you know,
for my first show, and it is it's weird. I
mean there's always sort of a especially with audio or video,
there's always that sort of barrier people have a first
unless they really want to be on camera or really
are confident with themselves. And then you add that layer
of masks or just sort of a you know, a
(19:34):
scariness element to it. I think it makes it hard.
You're right, when did you come into this story. I
know that it came out in twenty twenty one and
you were reporting earlier on it, but you had said
it was you know, how many years is it six
or seven years later?
Speaker 2 (19:48):
Oh yeah, I first pitched this in twenty seventeen. It
was a long time coming. I'll be forever grateful that
I kind of like got the time in space to
do that reporting. The reporting really started in earnest I
want to say, like end of twenty nineteen. But yeah,
it was a story that was with me for a
long time, and I just something about it.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
I couldn't let go. I don't know.
Speaker 2 (20:10):
I just see that picture of Relicia and her braids.
You know, I was once a little girl with braids,
like I could hear that picture. I can smell the
cocoa butter in that picture, and it's just it's so
heartbreaking to think that in such a time of innocence,
where you're you know, you're jumping around, you're hanging out,
like something terrible could happen to you.
Speaker 1 (20:30):
I think that really stuck with me.
Speaker 2 (20:34):
Relicio's story is really interesting because when you go in
chronological order, it's hard to know quite what order to
go in. But I think the best place to start
is when the city realized she was missing. So Licia
was last seen on surveillance video March first. It wasn't
(20:56):
until March nineteenth that the city realized she was missing.
And so Relicia was living in this homeless shelter, you know,
family a little bit all over the place, things getting
lost in the shuffle. There was a man who was
a janitor at the homeless shelter, and you know, he
was really nice to the kids.
Speaker 1 (21:17):
He would always give them presents. He would say, how
are you doing.
Speaker 2 (21:20):
And he befriended Relicio's mother, Shamikha, and he said, you know,
I have a granddaughter, like Relisia, can come stay with me,
my wife, my granddaughter, like, We'll do trips, We'll do
that sort of things. And you know, if you are
in a very trustful situation, your kids are in a
chaotic environment, you may not think things through and you
(21:42):
may jump at the chance of stability, especially if you
have this one child who is very well behaved and
her little brothers require more attention. So this was an
ongoing friendship that they had. Relicia would refer to Khalil
as her godfather. They would spend tons of time together,
(22:04):
hang out with his granddaughter, amusement parks, you know, stuff
kids like. At the same time, Relicia was missing a
lot of school, and you know, she did have health issues,
so she would get excused quite a bit. But it
turned out that Khalil Tatum, who was the janitor at
the shelter that befriended her family, was writing some of
(22:25):
the notes, he was referring to himself as the doctor
who was excusing Relicia. And so Relicia was seen on
a surveillance video of February twenty sixth, you know, at
a holiday in express in Northeast DC. March first, she's
seen on surveillance at a days in in Northwest DC.
(22:47):
And then on March second, that's when Khalil Tatum was
seen purchasing forty two gallon trash bags a shovel in
lime and he was also seen around the Kennilworth Park
and aquatic guards. But at this time, you know, the
city still isn't aware that she's nowhere to be found.
So Milicia reached ten unexcused absences from her elementary school
(23:11):
pay an elementary school which was near the shelter and
where a lot of children experiencing homelessness went. The school
social worker was like, okay, we got to notify family
services figure out what's going on. The social worker really
is the reason that things start going off. You know,
he goes to the shelter and he's like, so, what's
(23:31):
the deal with Relicia. I haven't been hearing from her.
We keep hearing from doctor Tatum. Is there a doctor
Tatum here? And someone was like doctor Tatum. There's no
doctor Tatum, but there is a Tatum that's a janitor.
And that's when he realizes, oh no, something is wrong,
and that's when the police get involved, the city gets involved.
Her family is questioned, and that's also the time that
(23:53):
Khalil Tatum and his wife Andrea check into a hotel
in Maryland. The next day, that's when the city goes
public with it. You know, there's a huge search. People
are coming through the gardens. But it's also on the
twentieth that Khalil Tita's wife, Andrea is found dead in
a hotel room from.
Speaker 1 (24:12):
A gunshot wound.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
One thing that I think it's really important to point
out in the story is that there is more than
one victim. I spoke with Andrea's daughter, and I'm so
grateful for her time because it was really important to
me because not a lot was known about her, like
what's her story? Like she's missed and her daughter was
just it really left her broken and confused because she
(24:36):
said Khalil loved her mom like he would spoil her.
He was all about her and for him to go
around to go kill her. It's like, okay, well then
what does that say about love? If someone can love
you that much and still harm you? And I think
that's really stuck with her. I asked her, you know,
does that make like being in relationship with people really hard?
And she's like, yeah, I don't know who to trust
(24:58):
because at any point things could go left, things could
get dangerous. You may not even know the person that
you're with, and so I don't know. I just like
to also think of Andrea in that hm, because like
there's just so many victims in this.
Speaker 3 (25:14):
So the last time her mom saw her, is it
February twenty sixth? Is that when it was somebody other
than Khalil and his wife?
Speaker 1 (25:21):
When was that?
Speaker 2 (25:22):
I don't know the exact date, but I know her
aunt was like, Okay, she is gonna hang out with
them till Easter.
Speaker 1 (25:30):
They're gonna go buy her some Easter shoes.
Speaker 2 (25:32):
Like that was sort of the last conversation they had
that you know, oh, Easter's coming up soon.
Speaker 1 (25:38):
We got to get her address and shoes for Easter service.
Speaker 3 (25:42):
How long had they been at the shelter before they
meet Khalil and Andrea and this sort of relationship starts.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
I don't think very long, because it was known that
he would befriend families pretty quickly when they moved in.
I think he gave one girl a fish as a gift.
In her mind was like, I don't like this. You
are stranger given gifts like no. But it also was
not uncommon for kids who were staying at the shelter
to not necessarily be at the shelter. Like, you know,
(26:13):
if you have no family with a house, people would
be more likely to send their kid to go stay
with family. So even though Relitia wasn't necessarily checked in
at night at the shelter, it wasn't that out of
the ordinary because so many kids would stay with friends
and family rather than stay at the shelter.
Speaker 1 (26:30):
So they would not at the shelter.
Speaker 3 (26:31):
And I don't know if this is realistic now, but
they would not track people coming in and out at all,
like and want to know where you're going, mister Anthony,
where are you going?
Speaker 2 (26:40):
Yeah, I mean they were supposed to. I think it
like really fell by the wayside at times. And also
like there's this feeling among families because I've even talked
with families who are in shelter now, and it's this
feeling of like, I'm an adult, I have a family.
Why do I need to check in and out if
I'm a grown person? Like it's this back and forth
between like Okay, is this necessary or is it paternalistic?
(27:02):
But they were supposed to be checking in but they weren't. Also,
you know, Khalil Tatum had a record. I think there's
a conversation to be had about people who have been
incarcerated being able to find work and find jobs. They
should absolutely be able to find work, but according to
DC policy at the time, because of his record, he
was not supposed to be working at that shelter, and
yet he was.
Speaker 3 (27:21):
Well, Okay, how did Antonio feel about Khalil and Andrea?
I mean, did he have an opinion at all? I'm
sure he was just trying to get work and provide
for his family and get them out of there.
Speaker 2 (27:32):
He says that in hindsight it was very weird, but
he had his sons with Shamikha, and Relicia was not
his biological daughter and her mother was very much like
Relicious mine. I make the decision when it comes to
my daughter, like stay out of this. So she vanishes.
She's seen on surveillance video at different hotels.
Speaker 3 (27:54):
Does he call in sick? How would he have accounted
for his time being gone? For my understand, he was
just gone.
Speaker 2 (28:01):
I don't think he was calling in and checking in
or anything like that with them.
Speaker 3 (28:06):
Okay, had he had any other kind of instances I
know you said he had a record, but anything else
that were red flags at the shelter at the time,
and they just said, well, who was we going to
get to do this or was there was nothing happening
with him before this?
Speaker 1 (28:19):
No, like people did not pick up red flags.
Speaker 2 (28:22):
His step daughter, Andrea's daughter, did say the very very
weird thing that he brought up to her mother was
that he was like, oh, I want to get a gun,
and her mother was like, you're a convicted felon.
Speaker 1 (28:37):
You can't own a gun.
Speaker 2 (28:39):
Like also, this is DC Maryland, Like it's it's not
that easy, And it was just they thought it was
weird that he was just like I'm pushing like, yeah,
I want to I want to get a gun, where
it's like you can't.
Speaker 1 (28:50):
You can't because of your record.
Speaker 3 (28:52):
Okay, So would you think talking to experts that this
would be considered grooming today. I don't even know if
we have that term in twenty four Oh, I think
absolutely it does.
Speaker 2 (29:03):
Like you prey on a family that does not have resources,
that is very distracted, would not be thinking, hey, what's
going on? Like people who have been through things themselves,
and then you apply them with gifts you do like
I don't know what he did with that grooming. I
cannot say, like, I do not know that from my reporting,
but I would feel safe saying that, like you're buying
(29:26):
little gifts, you're doing stuff. You also work here, there's
a no fraternization policy, or being kind of that in
and of itself is inappropriate, Like yeah, I think.
Speaker 3 (29:36):
It's safe to say, Okay, so she's seen on surveillance,
but nobody knows where she is. I guess we get
into where the heck has this kid been? And part
of the podcast that you have, especially the trailer, is
it's like your granddaughter's missing. No, she's not, she's at
ex's house. And then you go to X, did you
know your niece is missing? No, No, she's not, she's
(29:57):
at this place. Is that kind of what happened?
Speaker 2 (29:59):
That's exactly like the example I give y'all have seen
home alone, like you know what it's like chaos? Oh
so and so is over there. No, they're over here,
like wires get cross. That is a lot of what happened.
Like if Grandma thinks she's at Auntie's house, if Aunties
thinks she's at you know, Grandma's house, they're not necessarily
(30:20):
gonna question each other and be like, oh where is she?
Versus like, oh, she's with this man?
Speaker 1 (30:26):
Where is she?
Speaker 3 (30:27):
Why did Relicio's family not move in with any of
these people who she trusted enough to take Relicia for,
you know, overnight visits and stuff. Was it just none
of space at these houses the grandmother and the aunt
and these people.
Speaker 2 (30:39):
Yeah, I think it comes down to space, especially when
there are children involved. There's a certain amount of bedrooms,
a certain amount of square footage, like what are the
gender of the kids by x amount of age?
Speaker 1 (30:48):
They should not be sharing rooms.
Speaker 2 (30:50):
It was just I think leaving Licia with Tatum felt
like the easier option for everybody involved, more convenient.
Speaker 3 (30:57):
Okay, you said that she had so I just remember
you saying this. She had some health issues that doctor
Tatum was writing notes for.
Speaker 1 (31:05):
What were the health issues. I'm not exactly sure.
Speaker 2 (31:07):
I know her little brother had asthma, it might have
been something similar. And it's really interesting because children in
low income families, children who are like in apartments where
there are mole where there's mold stuff like that, they're
more likely to develop asthma. So I wouldn't be surprised
if that was part of it. Also, like her brother
was often sick too, so they were preoccupied with that
as well, because.
Speaker 1 (31:27):
He had asthma. But I believe it was some respiratory
stuff but.
Speaker 3 (31:31):
It wasn't not that you wouldn't need an inhaler or
anything for that, but it wasn't like she's diabetic and
she needs to have a shot or she's going to die.
Speaker 1 (31:39):
No, Okay, that's what I was wondering.
Speaker 3 (31:40):
Okay, so she vanishes and then there's this eighteen day period.
Tell me kind of what happens with the family. Who's
the first one I would assume it's her mom is
the first one who makes the call to family members saying, hey,
I haven't seen her Relicia, do you know where she is?
Speaker 1 (31:57):
Or no?
Speaker 2 (31:57):
Well, once the police get involved, that's sort of when
the phone calls to family happened where it's like, hey,
she's with you, right, and it's like, no, she's with
so and so. And that's when sort of the game
of telephone happens. Before those eighteen days, I think Shamikha
was thinking she's with Tatum, She's fine, wow.
Speaker 1 (32:13):
For that long. She was okay with her taking her
for that long? Wow?
Speaker 3 (32:17):
Yeah, And has had that happen before? I mean, had
they gone away for a week or something.
Speaker 2 (32:22):
I mean they've gone out of town before, like they'd
been like, oh, we're going to go to the amusement
park and he had a granddaughter and they would like
play together, like it was like oh yeah, like bring
your swimsuit, we're gonna go to the pool.
Speaker 1 (32:34):
Like it was they were like, yeah, that's his goddaughter.
Speaker 3 (32:37):
And then the social worker shows up and says, truancy
for ten days? What's going on with Relitia? And that's
when is that And that's when you said it all
unraveled right where it was like, oh, I think he's
with this guy with Khalil and his wife and the
social worker gets alarmed and that's where DC police get involved.
Speaker 2 (32:55):
Yeah, I mean because he said, hey, where's doctor Tatum
and the fact that they were like, they're there's no
doctor Tatum, there's a janitor Tatum. That was when it
was like, something is not right, something is wrong.
Speaker 3 (33:06):
What is Shamika's reaction? She's like no, no, no, and
then she starts making the phone calls.
Speaker 1 (33:11):
Is that right? Yeah? I think initially she was like
she's with Tatum, She's fine, Like what do you mean?
Speaker 2 (33:15):
And I think after a while that's when it starts
to hit her like, hey, this is much bigger than
we realized.
Speaker 3 (33:22):
And I'm assuming he's not picking up. Khalil is not
picking up.
Speaker 2 (33:25):
And I will say on April first, Khalil Tatum was
found dead from a self inflicted gunshot wound in a
shed near Kenilworth Park and it was from the same
gun that shot his wife.
Speaker 3 (33:38):
Aside from Khalil and his wife, how many other possibilities
do you think were there for Relicia to go and
stay with different people? Are we talking about just a
couple her aunt and her her grandmother or is it
a bigger one.
Speaker 2 (33:51):
She had cousins, aunts and uncles, but as far as
closeness goes, her grandmother and her aunt were the main ones,
especially since you know Antonio's family, like wasn't her biological family,
and her mom was very like, this is my daughter,
so like, yes, there was community, but like not that
much available. I'm not certain what relicious father was up
(34:14):
to at the time, but not.
Speaker 1 (34:17):
A whole whole lot of options. Okay, her biological father,
her biological father, was he in the picture. I mean
I think he.
Speaker 2 (34:24):
Would be like say hello, but they weren't together, so
I think sometimes you know, when relationships fall apart, relationships
with kids can fall apart two a lot of the time.
Speaker 3 (34:35):
So the police do what they find out that the
only option is that Relicia is with Khalil and his wife,
and they try to get a hold of him. And
you know, this is about what March you said about.
March eighteenth is when they start sounding the arms. March nineteenth.
Speaker 2 (34:50):
Yes, on March nineteenth, that's when they realize, Okay, something
isn't right. And it's on the twentieth that the police
go public. I spoke with a reporter who was covering
it at the time, and you know, whenever there's a
major police presence, if you're a reporter, they're text messages.
They are like, hey, what's going on here? What's going on?
Jackie Benson? And she said when she heard that DC police,
(35:16):
we're at a red roof inn in PG County. That's
when her antenna went up and was like, wait, why
are they over there?
Speaker 1 (35:23):
That's not their jurisdiction.
Speaker 3 (35:25):
So we're starting at March twentieth, and they've seen her
at how many different on video? How many different places
have they seen her? A couple different hotels.
Speaker 2 (35:36):
Two two different hotels, a holiday inn, and a Day's
in that's right across the street from it.
Speaker 3 (35:41):
Okay, and are they all together? Is it the three
of them together? So she's only seen with Tatum on camera?
Speaker 2 (35:49):
Okay, we don't see his wife on camera, at least
not in the publicly available video.
Speaker 1 (35:54):
Did her family Undrea?
Speaker 3 (35:56):
His family say, well, they've got to be together because
we can't get a hold of her either.
Speaker 1 (36:00):
I think so.
Speaker 2 (36:01):
And like she said, Andrea's daughter was saying that. Initially
her mom was like, oh, we're staying in a hotel.
The heat is broken. Her mother's an emic and you
know she would get cold, so it was like, okay,
we're going to stay in a hotel. It's a little
chili still, the heat is broken. So they were at
the hotel. She said it was weird. She could not
get a hold of her mom and she's like, that's weird.
I talked to my mom all the time.
Speaker 3 (36:22):
Were they able to trace with GPS? Is that what
they were doing? How were they figuring out what hotel?
The last hotel they were at was that. I'm not sure.
I'm not sure how they tracked them down.
Speaker 2 (36:34):
It could have been a tip, surveillance, GPS, all types
of ways, but they did find them there at that
red roof in What.
Speaker 3 (36:40):
Was Shamika doing at the time in Antonio now? I
mean were they were they looking or was she falling apart?
Speaker 1 (36:48):
Or what ends up? What's the way that they process
what happened.
Speaker 2 (36:52):
It's so interesting because the disappearance has also led to
different fallouts of the family at different times. There were
times where Shamika and her mother are speaking when they're not,
when Antonio and Shimika are speaking when they're not, when
Antonio is speaking with a grandmother when they're not, Just
a lot of different fallout. The thing that I think
that's interesting about Shamika, I think people have been very
(37:17):
judgmental when it comes to her, and I get where
that comes from, because I know when I played my
mom the Pilot, her first thing was like, as a mother,
how could you not know where your kid is?
Speaker 3 (37:27):
Like?
Speaker 1 (37:27):
How could you not do X Y Z?
Speaker 2 (37:30):
But the more I learned about Shamika, the more I
learned about her upbringing, the more I realized, Oh, there's
a cycle that's kind of repeating here eventually, because at
first she was like, Khalil didn't do it, and she
she has said that, and then you know, she comes
around and goes back, comes around, goes back. I think
(37:51):
Antonio has had like the strongest and most typical reaction
where it's a lot of grief, because I think he's
grieving both Relicia and the fan that he wanted and
kind of wanting the chance to break kind of the
cycle he was living in. You know, his his family,
his kids were taken away. Oh wow, after all of this,
and he was taken away from his family when something
(38:15):
similar happened.
Speaker 1 (38:16):
Why why did that happen? They just determined you're unfit.
Speaker 2 (38:20):
You'll let this little girl go for eighteen days, got
to take the boys. And I think that's been really
really hard for him.
Speaker 1 (38:27):
Oh that's awful.
Speaker 3 (38:28):
Okay, and I do think about that too, you know,
when people get online hate and even though their story
is explained, and you know, your people are figuring out
how much empathy you deserve. Yeah, and particularly women, you know,
women get the brunt of it too.
Speaker 2 (38:42):
I mean, oh yeah, And I mean I get the
knee jerk reaction to be like, how could this happen?
Speaker 1 (38:47):
What do you mean?
Speaker 2 (38:48):
But I think taking a peek behind the curtain and
knowing the resources people have and.
Speaker 1 (38:55):
Don't have, it was very illuminating for me. You know.
Speaker 3 (38:58):
I hope that this is a world a lot of
our listeners, yours and mine, don't have to ever enter,
but oh god, I hope not.
Speaker 1 (39:05):
I think.
Speaker 3 (39:06):
I think when you learn more about it, it doesn't
have to be sympathy or even empathy or anything like that,
but just sort of it's not black and white.
Speaker 1 (39:15):
I mean, you know that the reason.
Speaker 3 (39:17):
I'm sure she did not want this to happen to
her child, But you know, at the same time, it
does show so many failings on so many different levels.
Speaker 2 (39:23):
So yeah. There's a really great write up about Shamika
and her childhood in the Washington Post that came out
around the time, and reading it and also talking with
her family. There are times where I'm like, oh my god,
like did she ever really get a chance? Yeah, And
I think that's the heartbreaking part. It's like did she
ever have a chance.
Speaker 3 (39:42):
So it sounds like the bottom line with this is that, well,
I guess, take me through what happened. So the police,
everybody is all forces starting probably about March twentieth, and
we know that Khalil is found, the last one to
be found, and he's got a self inflicted gunshot wound
on April first. Okay, so you've got ten days basically
(40:02):
until he's discovered. Is there any understanding of what happened
over those ten days aside from I know you said
that Khalil was caught on camera getting.
Speaker 1 (40:10):
Large trash bags.
Speaker 2 (40:11):
I think people fall into two camps either like she
is no longer with us, he killed her, or maybe
some sort of trafficking. And part of me like, really
hope she's still out there. You know she would be
oh gosh, she would be maybe a senior, if not graduated.
Speaker 1 (40:27):
Maybe you know, she hangs out with her friends.
Speaker 2 (40:31):
And I think it's one of those things where like
this may truly be unsolved, And I think one of
the things that also hits me hard about it, and
this is sort of the crux of what we base
the podcast on. But you know, Khalil Tatum has found
dead April first. On April eighth, the mayor at the
time of Vincent Gray, ordered a report into the investigation
(40:52):
of the city's responsibility when it comes to religious disappearance.
And you know, her family was touched by a lot
of social services, Like her mother was in contact with
the Department of Behavioral Health, she was in DC public schools,
she's with homeless services. And I think the part that
really gets me is that September of that same year,
September second, the preface of the report read that quote,
(41:14):
the review team did not find evidence that these tragic
events were preventable. The idea of something like this being
unpreventable does not sit well with me. I think we
can absolutely like there, we can definitely create a world
where there are no more relishes, where this doesn't happen
have to happen to little girls.
Speaker 1 (41:36):
You're right.
Speaker 3 (41:36):
I mean, there were so many social services around her
that it sounded like we're really failing. And we talk
about that with the foster care system too. You know
when things happen, and it's just sad to think it
takes these kinds of stories for people to understand, you know,
what happens sometimes when they are vulnerable, people who become
even more vulnerable. And so Andrea you said, had been killed.
(42:01):
They found her at the inn is that right? The
Red roof in in PG County, Maryland, and it clearly
she had been shot, but not as suicide. No, is
there evidence that Relicia was at that hotel?
Speaker 1 (42:15):
I don't think so. No.
Speaker 2 (42:16):
I don't think they saw her at the Red roof In. No,
they wouldn't have because that was she was last seeding
March first, and that was later.
Speaker 3 (42:22):
But does Shamika remember when they actually said goodbye, we'll
see you in a couple of weeks.
Speaker 1 (42:29):
That's in February, right, yeah, that's February. Yeah. Wow.
Speaker 3 (42:33):
Okay, So there are you talked about? There were some
images of what was it wetlands or something that Kenilworth
Garden tell me how all of that came out. So
they find these people dead and Relicia is nowhere around.
What do the DC police or Maryland whoever is involved
with us at this point, what do they do next?
Speaker 1 (42:53):
To try to figure out where she is. The thing is,
the case is still open. They have not closed this case.
Speaker 2 (42:58):
They're still a know how active they're looking, but the
case is still open.
Speaker 1 (43:02):
So they find these two people dead. Where do you
go from there?
Speaker 3 (43:05):
Where the two people who would know where she is,
you know, are gone and you can't question Them'm assuming
there's no notes or any kind of clues.
Speaker 2 (43:13):
Oh yeah, I mean I think that's also part of it,
like the lack of the lack of answers. And that's
when you sort of start to see you know, I
mean we see this with every case. Internet suits, psychics,
Reddit gets in there, Like that's around the time we
start to see people like saying, okay, like where is she?
Speaker 1 (43:32):
What's going on?
Speaker 2 (43:33):
But yeah, that's and that's also like the tragedy what
happened to Relicia died with Khalil Tatum?
Speaker 3 (43:39):
Yeah, do they end up finding anything? You don't know
about his cell phone or anything like that? I mean
I can't imagine they wouldn't be able to trace something
his car anywhere, GPS anything.
Speaker 1 (43:48):
Yeah, it's all Kennilworth gardens.
Speaker 2 (43:50):
So the kennel Worth gardens there, that's the tragic part too,
is this beautiful like aquatic part of the National Arboretum.
So these beautiful trees, all these paths, things like that,
and you know this didn't make it in the podcast,
but there is a day where we go we retrace
the steps. But I'm telling you people combed every inch
(44:11):
of those gardens and found nothing.
Speaker 1 (44:14):
That was because of his phone that took you guys there.
It was either his phone or a tip. There might
have been a tip of some kind. Was that somebody
seeing him dig up something?
Speaker 2 (44:23):
I think people just seeing him around, like like he
was seen buying the trash bags and the lime and everything.
Speaker 3 (44:29):
Okay, so then you know they did they do any
dragging anywhere, like if she were in a lake or
if there's a water source.
Speaker 2 (44:38):
All of that, like police like searched by water like
it was, people were on foot, there were volunteers, like
they went all through those gardens.
Speaker 1 (44:50):
How and you might know the answer to this.
Speaker 3 (44:52):
And now I'm curious what would they do to be
able to figure out if she ended up, god forbid,
in sex trafficking or something. Is that a DNA you know,
a piece of her DNA? And if she is arrested
or found or somebody in her family had uploaded, you know,
(45:13):
a DNA to a genealogy site. You know, is there
anything that's helpful that would flag something for either law
enforcement or someone that she is actually alive at all.
Speaker 2 (45:25):
Yeah. I think the biggest thing is it's not even DNA,
it's the time progressed pictures. Like every year there is
a new time progressed photo of militia, and every year
there is a vigil where people go out and they
pass the photo around and they post it and media
comes out and we do stories about it, like it
is a very active, active thing.
Speaker 1 (45:46):
Have you hooked up with the women who I interviewed
at Black and Missing? Oh yeah, they were a major part.
Speaker 2 (45:53):
They were unbelievably helpful as we reported the story. And
also they're so good on giving the context of where this.
Like I said before, relicious story is kind of different
than a lot of stories we hear because she did
get attention and that doesn't happen. And I think you
can mark how well a society is doing by how
(46:15):
the most marginalized people within that society are treated, and
I think Relicia kind of sits at that intersection of
like she is black, she is a little girl, she
is a child, and those are three groups of people
that we do not necessarily treat the best. Yeah, I
think it's sort of like a if you want to
know how a society is doing, look at the people
who are most marginalized. But yeah, they were absolutely amazing
(46:37):
and they were there. They were like on the ground
part of that search when Relicia first went missing. They
were out there with the police, out there with the
volunteers looking through Kenilworth aquatic gardens.
Speaker 3 (46:49):
What is the theory about what happened as far as
why you know Tatum and his wife would have taken
her to begin with, as in sexual or wanting to
just co opt her as their daughter. I felt like
it's somewhat unusual to have a couple doing.
Speaker 2 (47:06):
This from what the reporting I've done in people I've
talked with, like Andrea was kind of like in the
dark pretty much like it. Mainly like Khalil, Tatum was
the one who forged this relationship with this family. I
don't know, but a lot of people are like, this
is a man who like grooms people. It was not
a good situation. Now what that means again, I do
(47:28):
not know. That's that's the reporter in me who's like, well,
I gotta like get for certain and get on records,
so I don't have that.
Speaker 1 (47:36):
But yeah, it was not a great situation.
Speaker 2 (47:39):
And I also think part of like what led to
Andrea's death and his death was like, oh, people know
something is up now, and like panic ensues, okay, and
decisions are made now.
Speaker 3 (47:52):
The family members that you spoke with, how were they grieving?
Are Is there hope that she's still alive or is it?
It's sort of like a feeling that all the evidence
points to her not being alive, and then you have
to think about how do you grieve when there's no
body and there's still uncertainty.
Speaker 2 (48:09):
I think there is a level of hope from some
Her grandmother, in fact, during an interview, she uses the
past tense and catches herself and starts using the present tense. Also,
she has a trunk with Birthday and Christmas gifts she's
gotten for Relicia every year because she's like, oh, when
she comes home, she's gonna want to come home to gifts.
(48:31):
And you know, it started with dolls and things like that,
but as she got older, she's like, oh, I got
her like earrings. I got her body spray because you know,
teenagers like to smell good. I think that's her own
way of coping. I don't know that we will ever
find out what happened to Relicia. There's a part of
me that really hopes so, but I think, yeah, I
think her family goes back and forth to between she's
(48:52):
not coming home and like, well, maybe she will walk
through the door one day.
Speaker 1 (48:56):
You hear stories of that sometimes. What about Shamika and Antonio.
I mean we hear about Antonio.
Speaker 3 (49:02):
He lost his two sons because of this, so there's
that fallout. I'm assuming they're not together anymore.
Speaker 1 (49:08):
Oh, no, they are.
Speaker 2 (49:09):
They are no longer together. I think the case really
broke them like that. It really it split that family up.
I think Antonio's focus now is his family. I need
to check in with him. But last I heard like
he was making headway with getting one of his sons
back and living near him, and that's kind of like
what he's been really focusing on. I think they both
(49:31):
hold out hope. Shamikha I was not able to get
on the record on the phone. You know, lots of calls.
In fact, if she's hit me up today, I'd be like, Yeah,
let's sit down, let's talk, let's do an interview. But
she doesn't really talk to the press, which I do understand.
You know, there was this episode that she, Antonio, and
(49:51):
her mother were on on The Steve Wilco Show, and
it just it very much feels like a circus, for
lack of a better term.
Speaker 1 (49:58):
Like what in fighting? Ye?
Speaker 2 (50:00):
Yeah, it's this salacious feel. It's like are you going
to take a lie detector test? It's the family arguing
with each other in front of a crowd while a
crowd like.
Speaker 1 (50:07):
Jeers or cheers them on.
Speaker 2 (50:09):
Really yeah, Honestly, if I had experience like that would
be I would not.
Speaker 1 (50:14):
I would not either. Why did they do that that I.
Speaker 2 (50:17):
Don't know, but I think they were like, yeah, come
do the show. They're like okay, And you know, after that,
they talked to the media a lot less. And that
was until it came through that the podcast was actually
going to happen. I really hesitated with reaching out to
Relicious family because I did not want to start that
process if it was not going to happen. What's wild is,
(50:38):
I messaged Antonio on Facebook. That's how I got in
contact with him, and I was like, Hey, I'm working
on this podcast, like I want to hear your story,
and his response was, I've been waiting for someone to
call me. I've been waiting to tell this story, and
I don't know. I feel very fortunate when people open
up to me, and so every time anyone opens up
(50:59):
to me, especially bout something so traumatic, I feel very
grateful that they trust me with their story.
Speaker 3 (51:17):
If you love historical true crime stories, check out the
audio versions of my books The Ghost Club, All That
Is Wicked, and American Sherlock and Don't Forget. There are
twelve seasons of my historical true crime podcast Tenfold More
Wicked right here in this podcast feed, scroll back and
give them a listen if you haven't already. This has
been an exactly right production. Our senior producer is Alexis M.
Speaker 1 (51:40):
Morosi. Our associate producer.
Speaker 3 (51:43):
Is Christina Chamberlain. This episode was mixed by John Bradley.
Curtis heath Is our composer, artwork by Nick Toga. Executive
produced by Georgia Hartstark, Karen Kilgarriff and Danielle Kramer. Listen
to Wicked Words on the iHeartRadio app Apple podcasts, or
wherever you get your podcasts. Follow wicked Words on Instagram
(52:04):
at tenfold More Wicked, and on Facebook at wicked words
pod
This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
You know, I was once a little girl with braids
like I could hear that picture. It's so heartbreaking to
think that in such a time of innocence, something terrible
could happen to you.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
I think that really stuck with me.
Speaker 3 (00:29):
I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor
in Austin, Texas.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
I'm also the co.
Speaker 3 (00:35):
Host of the podcast Buried Bones on Exactly Right, and
throughout my career, research for my many audio and book
projects has taken me around the world. On Wicked Words,
I sit down with the people I've met along the way,
amazing writers, journalists, filmmakers, and podcasters who have investigated and
reported on notorious true crime cases. This is about the
(00:58):
choices writers make, both good and bad, and it's a
deep dive into the unpublished details behind their stories. When
an eight year old disappeared from a homeless shelter in Washington,
d C. In twenty fourteen, nobody noticed for eighteen days,
even her family. Seven years later, Relitia Rudd has never
(01:20):
been found. The Through the Cracks podcast investigates gaps in
our society and the people who fall through them. Host
John Quilin Hill asks what could have been done to
find Relitia. Let's start with where you got the story.
Was this PRX approached you about it? Or where did
(01:41):
this come from? No, so it's actually really interesting.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
I went to college here in DC and I stayed
after graduation. And I remember I was on my way
to work at the time. It was twenty fourteen. I
was on the Red Line. People who live in d
C and know the metro system, we'll understand what that means.
And I was getting off at Union Station for work,
which is one of the metro station's closest to the Capitol.
(02:09):
I was, you know, a little Hill producer, on my
way to get some sound or some tape with somebody's congressman.
And I saw Relicious photo in the window of the
Einstein Bagels there, and you know, I remember when she
went missing. That was also twenty fourteen, but it just
(02:29):
blew my mind that her missing photo was still there,
and I think her story stuck with me for a
while after that. And then, you know, also around that time,
we start to see more podcasts. I think of, you know, Cereal,
I think of a few years later in the dark,
and I couldn't help but think relicious story is also
a story that needs to be told. So I pitched
(02:50):
it to the station I was working at at the time, WAMU,
and worked really hard to get that funding and X
came through with a big chunk of it also helped
us develop and distribute it, and from there we hit
the ground running and started telling the story.
Speaker 3 (03:08):
You might disagree with this, but this is one of
the first stories about a person of color who actually
the story gets amplified.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
It sounds like quite a bit.
Speaker 3 (03:17):
I mean, we talk a lot about how true crime
stories or missing people's stories in general, you know, involving
people of color who they just kind of get buried.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
Is it because she's eight or was it because.
Speaker 3 (03:29):
This eighteen day lag between when people last saw her
and when they found out she was missing.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
I think it's a combination of things.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
I think one thankfully, typically when kids go missing, especially
in the district, they're found. You know, if you're at
a bus stop, it's not out of the ordinary to see,
you know, a missing child poster. But often they're found.
It could be a custody you dispute among parents could
be a runaway. I think even in those situations, we
(03:58):
have to treat every situation with a kid like it's
an emergency, but they're eventually found.
Speaker 1 (04:03):
Relicia was not.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
She was only eight years old, and so she also
has this sort of, I guess, for lack of a
better term, the kind of perfect victim story. Because you
know she's young, there's still a sense of innocence there
that people don't necessarily perceive as girls and women get older.
I think it's the amount of time she was missing
before anyone realized. And I also think this was something
(04:27):
that an expert sort of laid out as we were
doing the reporting. The fact that she got so much
attention kind of highlights Oh how little.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
Attention cases like these get. She's sort of this exception
to this rule.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
But I remember she was everywhere, all in the news,
people looking for her. To this day, people get together
and do a search, put up posters, hoping that she's
still out there somewhere.
Speaker 3 (04:52):
Well, and you know, you and I have talked about
where to start with this story. One thing I'll be
interested in is learning a little bit about homeless show
in DC.
Speaker 1 (05:01):
This was only eleven years ago.
Speaker 3 (05:03):
I don't know if they've changed dramatically, but that I'm
sure has to be another point. Not only do you
have an eight year old who is vulnerable to begin with,
no matter where you are socioeconomically, but now you've got
a kid who's in a homeless shelter.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
Right, how long had she been there?
Speaker 2 (05:20):
Oh, her family had sort of been in and out
of shelters, bouncing on couches for a while.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
Her mother was evicted.
Speaker 2 (05:28):
And DC admittedly has better tenant laws than a lot
of places. There are lots of protections, lots of opportunities,
but taking advantage of those protections takes time and the
knowledge to do it. And you know, if you're working,
if you're running around after three small children, you maybe
don't necessarily have the time and the resources to do that.
(05:51):
Shelters in DC have changed quite a bit since Relicia
and her family lived in a shelter. Now we have
shelters that are dedicated to families at the eight different
wards around d C, and so that's much different. You know,
they're made for families, but DC general was not a
place that was at any point meant to be a shelter,
(06:14):
especially for families. So DC General was an abandoned hospital.
It's by now RFK Stadium, where you know, eventually they've
they've torn it down, I believe, where eventually, you know,
there's probably going to be a new stadium for the commanders.
But at the time it was an abandoned hospital. So
(06:34):
they turned it into the shelter. Initially, it started as
a hypothermia shelter because when it gets below a certain temperature,
if people are experiencing homelessness, they need a place to go.
And then eventually it turned into a family shelter just
because there were so many families in need.
Speaker 1 (06:49):
It very much looked like a hospital.
Speaker 2 (06:52):
One of the organizers. I talked to the executive director
of the Homeless Children's Playtime Project, which is an organization
that creates space and playtime for children in homo shelters,
Jimila Larson. She was saying that they would go and
there would still be boxes of you know, medical record
documents and kids. You know, you got to go to
(07:16):
the bathroom in the middle of the night. They were
required to be with their parents at all times, and
it was sort of this dormitory style shower, not necessarily
a place where you know, what if you have a
little girl and she just started her period and you
got to get up in the middle of the night.
Now you got to bring the whole entire family to
the bathroom. There was even an incident that was very
scary for families and for the person who was injured,
(07:38):
where a man was shot and his friends saw the
DC General sign and assumed it was a hospital they
drove there.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
It was not a working hospital.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
The families were freaking out, the guy who was shot
was freaking out. It was just it was a really
bad situation. And in fact, before Relicia disappeared, there was
a fight overbuilding a playground there. You know, the families
they wanted a playground, and the city pushed back, I
think in part because it would have really signified a
sense of permanence and would have sort of let people know, oh,
(08:09):
their children here, And it was not a place for children.
So it was just it was a really it was
not a great place to grow up. And I think
that also put Relicia and her family in a vulnerable
position to end up befriending this man, who it turned
out was really dangerous.
Speaker 1 (08:27):
Tell me about Relicia, and then I want to know
about her family.
Speaker 3 (08:31):
We get to hear from her in your podcast. How
does that audio come about? I mean it's just for me,
heartbreaking knowing what was going to happen, but just as
sweet as can be when you hear it.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
Yeah, I mean that video some of the last video
of her. It was recorded with the Homeless Children's Playtime Project.
You know, you do these fundraising videos. You get the
kids to say, yeah, we need a place to play.
We love to play. And it's funny because when you
look at that full video, you know, she's such a
little girl, like she's being goofy. She has her hands
in her face, she's like being silly and they're off
(09:06):
kind of like okay, can you do it again? I mean,
we all know what it's like to coax a kid
into a picture or a video when you're doing something.
And yeah, she's just this little girl acting like this
little girl. And that's some of the last video we
have of her. She loved arts and crafts. She was
the big sister. And I think you know those running
(09:27):
there's that running joke about how oldest sisters and families
should probably unionize because they just do so much, they
take on so much responsibility, and that was Relicia. You know,
her brothers did have a few behavioral problems, but Relicia
was quiet. She was well behaved, and because of that,
I think sometimes she got lost in the shuffle from
(09:47):
her brothers who kind of needed more attention from her family.
Speaker 3 (09:51):
So tell me about her part of the family that's
actually in the shelter. It's her brothers and Relicia and
then her mom or is there anybody else.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
Right, So in the shelter it was Relitia, her younger brothers,
her mother, and then sometimes her stepfather Antonio. Antonio wasn't
always around because he would get work, you know, working
construction sites, would often go to Pennsylvania so he could
earn money from the family and come back. But her
family that was in the shelter, it was her her
(10:19):
brothers and her mom. She did have family that was
outside the shelter. She had an aunt she would spend
time with. She had a grandmother she would spend time with.
It was it was a mix, but mainly her place
of residence was the shelter.
Speaker 3 (10:34):
Now is her mother in Antonio. Are they considered underemployed
or unemployed? I mean, I know that you said he
would go out and stuff. I guess I'm asking how
did they end up at this shelter aside from being evicted?
Speaker 1 (10:47):
What led to all of that?
Speaker 2 (10:49):
Yeah, it's really the eviction because once it's on, it's
very difficult to find other places that will rent to you.
DC is a very expensive city, even more so now,
but very expensive at the time, and you know, their
native Washingtonians. In fact, her stepfather, Antonio, also has a
really tragic story. He was put into foster care as
(11:11):
a child because his stepfather murdered his little sister. Oh yeah,
the entire family basically got broken up and he was
put into foster care. And it was very heartbreaking interviewing
him because all he ever wanted because of that was
to have a family and a family that sticks together,
and then this tragedy hits.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
It was just so cyclical and so heartbreaking.
Speaker 3 (11:37):
Well, we'll talk about Antonio and how he plays into
this a little bit later, because I'm sure you know,
immediately people think, well, he must be you know, the
key suspect, the offender. But you know, let's keep going
with personalities in the family. So you have said that
Relicia was sort of the caretaker, the older sister, and
she had brothers who were a little contankerous, it sounds like.
(11:59):
And then her mom, I mean, are we considering this
a really solid nuclear family despite you know, things that
are happening economically in their lives and instability.
Speaker 2 (12:08):
No, her mom had a lot on her plate as well,
so she grew up in shelters as well, like she
grew up in shelters in Virginia. Also, there's reporting in
the Washington Post like she does have a little bit
of a developmental delay. And she also had Relicia fairly young.
I believe she was nineteen when she had her, and
(12:31):
Relicio's father is considerably older than her mother, you know,
and for all the conversations about age gaps, is just yeah,
it's a sticky situation. She was dealing with a lot,
So she was dealing with her own stuff, plus having
sons with some behavioral issues and a daughter. There was
not a lot of stability there.
Speaker 3 (12:52):
No so in DC shelters in this time period in
twenty fourteen, and again I'm not familiar with them. Now,
were they going to transition this family out of the
shelter into like is there are there work positions available,
Are they pushing forward? Is this a good place to
transition to a more stable life or was this just
(13:15):
a ticket day by day situation.
Speaker 1 (13:17):
According to her mom and her stepfather, I.
Speaker 2 (13:20):
Think at the time it was more taken day by day.
Now in DC, the way people approach homelessness is much different.
You know, you have rapid rehousing, you have programs that
get people into housing, that help with job training, that
help with a series of things.
Speaker 1 (13:36):
But that was not the landscape at the time.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
There really weren't as many resources being poured into it
as there are now. The approach the city has taken
and has changed in a major part to relicious disappearance.
Speaker 3 (13:52):
Actually, isn't that so? That's awful? And this was halfway
through Obama's second term? Is that about right now?
Speaker 1 (14:00):
Twenty fourteen?
Speaker 3 (14:00):
Yeah, Okay, was there anything when when this really was
rolling and there was panic, you know, eighteen days later?
Was was he involved in any way or did he
help amplefly?
Speaker 2 (14:10):
I don't think so. It really felt like such a
local story, okay, like you would occasionally see it on
the cable news. You would occasionally see things, but when
it was everywhere, it was everywhere locally there were vigils.
I mean, people went searching, but it was also it
was major to Washingtonians.
Speaker 3 (14:30):
Yeah, and I think when you're in the middle of
that search, kind of like I think about Gabby Petito thing,
when it is like a clear and present danger.
Speaker 1 (14:37):
Somebody is in danger, let's figure out where they are.
Speaker 3 (14:40):
I'm not sure the themes pop up immediately, like the
people are not going to be talking about homeless shelter
safety immediately.
Speaker 1 (14:47):
They're just gonna say, where's this kid? Right?
Speaker 2 (14:49):
Yeah, exactly Like when I when I think about Through
the Cracks, I've kind of described it, it's almost a
trojan horse, like, yes, it's this true crime story, but
it's also a trojan horse to get at home listeners
policy in America. And it's kind of like, not until
you're in it for a little bit you realize, oh wait,
this is about affordable housing. This is about how we
think of kids, how we treat kids, childcare, and the
(15:12):
accessibility to that. I think what's interesting and part of
the reason we called it Through the Cracks is like, yes,
ideally your family is your first social safety net, but
there are safety nets in place when that safety net
falls through and there were just so many, so many
(15:32):
safety nets that she fell through.
Speaker 3 (15:34):
Yeah, when people criticize true crime and put all of
us under this umbrella of you know, the stuff that
really is sensationalized and really you know, glorifies the killer
and ignores the victims, it makes me really angry because
you know, you cannot put us all under that umbrella.
True crime is powerful in some ways, in a lot
(15:54):
of ways because of this, because of a podcast like
Through the Cracks, and you know, anything else that I
think is of high quality, hopefully the things that I do,
which is, you know you are yes, you're talking about
a death. Yes there's drama, Yes there are characters there,
and you know you're looking for a resolution. It follows
that storyline that people say good stories are supposed to be.
(16:15):
But it always there's always a circumstance for why it
happened that you can talk about. It's whether you take
advantage of that and actually want to inform people about
it or not.
Speaker 1 (16:24):
And you do, Yeah, thank you. I mean I think
that's the thing.
Speaker 2 (16:27):
Like, I think the definition of true crime has shifted
quite a bit, and you.
Speaker 1 (16:34):
Know, people call it guilty pleasure or whatever.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
But I've always been sort of like into the true
crime of it all, Like I will always throw on
a documentary, I'll always see what's going on. But I
think the way we think of true crime has also changed,
both with like through the cracks, but I also think
in the dark, like we're not just talking about there
are all types of victims, like wrongful conviction that is
also a victim that is also getting into like these
(16:57):
big systemic things, you know, both people who are wrongly convicted,
people who are victims of crimes. Like it's all about
vulnerable populations and how they're treated or not treated.
Speaker 1 (17:11):
I really think that's like the heart of it.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
And I think some of the appeal of true crime
I don't know, Like, yes, I guess people lead into
like oh, it's so salacious, but I think there is
also this sense of like an attempt at control, like
maybe if I know what's out there, there's a way
for me to protect myself and there may not be frankly,
and that is honestly scary, but I do not fault
(17:34):
those of us who try.
Speaker 3 (17:36):
And I think that there isn't a need and a
lot of us and maybe this is just me projecting
to want to see some good something happen at the
end of one of these stories, like Okay, this person
did this awful thing, or this young girl is gone.
Speaker 1 (17:50):
Can we you know, it's God.
Speaker 3 (17:52):
I hope something good happens, and when it doesn't, you know,
it's I think it can be difficult. That's why untulf
cases are upsetting for me. And we'll get to to
that more.
Speaker 1 (18:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (18:01):
Yeah, shifting back to you as a journalist, had you
ever reported this much on homeless shelters or just the
homeless population before all of this started.
Speaker 2 (18:11):
No, this was this was a totally new endeavor for me.
Prior to this. You know, I worked as an audio producer.
I joke that I'm a producer's rights advocate, like producers
they make these pop why or would we be without
you producers? Thank you producers.
Speaker 1 (18:28):
But yeah, it was.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
It was a really big leap as far as skills go.
Like I'd always loved interviewing people, I always loved talking,
but it was, Oh, we're going through documents, we're doing
Foyer requests, We're doing this brand new sort of journalism
that you have not done before. And so I really
appreciate the story for that as well. The fact that
(18:52):
it stretched me beyond my comfort zone. We also did
a lot of the reporting during COVID and oh my gosh,
like just hopping in a car, wrapping a microphone in
a saran wrap, going to a park to interview her
family members.
Speaker 1 (19:09):
It was wild. It really was. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (19:12):
I reported during COVID too, and it was pretty scary.
I mean I did some before and then you know,
for my first show, and it is it's weird. I
mean there's always sort of a especially with audio or video,
there's always that sort of barrier people have a first
unless they really want to be on camera or really
are confident with themselves. And then you add that layer
of masks or just sort of a you know, a
(19:34):
scariness element to it. I think it makes it hard.
You're right, when did you come into this story. I
know that it came out in twenty twenty one and
you were reporting earlier on it, but you had said
it was you know, how many years is it six
or seven years later?
Speaker 2 (19:48):
Oh yeah, I first pitched this in twenty seventeen. It
was a long time coming. I'll be forever grateful that
I kind of like got the time in space to
do that reporting. The reporting really started in earnest I
want to say, like end of twenty nineteen. But yeah,
it was a story that was with me for a
long time, and I just something about it.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
I couldn't let go. I don't know.
Speaker 2 (20:10):
I just see that picture of Relicia and her braids.
You know, I was once a little girl with braids,
like I could hear that picture. I can smell the
cocoa butter in that picture, and it's just it's so
heartbreaking to think that in such a time of innocence,
where you're you know, you're jumping around, you're hanging out,
like something terrible could happen to you.
Speaker 1 (20:30):
I think that really stuck with me.
Speaker 2 (20:34):
Relicio's story is really interesting because when you go in
chronological order, it's hard to know quite what order to
go in. But I think the best place to start
is when the city realized she was missing. So Licia
was last seen on surveillance video March first. It wasn't
(20:56):
until March nineteenth that the city realized she was missing.
And so Relicia was living in this homeless shelter, you know,
family a little bit all over the place, things getting
lost in the shuffle. There was a man who was
a janitor at the homeless shelter, and you know, he
was really nice to the kids.
Speaker 1 (21:17):
He would always give them presents. He would say, how
are you doing.
Speaker 2 (21:20):
And he befriended Relicio's mother, Shamikha, and he said, you know,
I have a granddaughter, like Relisia, can come stay with me,
my wife, my granddaughter, like, We'll do trips, We'll do
that sort of things. And you know, if you are
in a very trustful situation, your kids are in a
chaotic environment, you may not think things through and you
(21:42):
may jump at the chance of stability, especially if you
have this one child who is very well behaved and
her little brothers require more attention. So this was an
ongoing friendship that they had. Relicia would refer to Khalil
as her godfather. They would spend tons of time together,
(22:04):
hang out with his granddaughter, amusement parks, you know, stuff
kids like. At the same time, Relicia was missing a
lot of school, and you know, she did have health issues,
so she would get excused quite a bit. But it
turned out that Khalil Tatum, who was the janitor at
the shelter that befriended her family, was writing some of
(22:25):
the notes, he was referring to himself as the doctor
who was excusing Relicia. And so Relicia was seen on
a surveillance video of February twenty sixth, you know, at
a holiday in express in Northeast DC. March first, she's
seen on surveillance at a days in in Northwest DC.
(22:47):
And then on March second, that's when Khalil Tatum was
seen purchasing forty two gallon trash bags a shovel in
lime and he was also seen around the Kennilworth Park
and aquatic guards. But at this time, you know, the
city still isn't aware that she's nowhere to be found.
So Milicia reached ten unexcused absences from her elementary school
(23:11):
pay an elementary school which was near the shelter and
where a lot of children experiencing homelessness went. The school
social worker was like, okay, we got to notify family
services figure out what's going on. The social worker really
is the reason that things start going off. You know,
he goes to the shelter and he's like, so, what's
(23:31):
the deal with Relicia. I haven't been hearing from her.
We keep hearing from doctor Tatum. Is there a doctor
Tatum here? And someone was like doctor Tatum. There's no
doctor Tatum, but there is a Tatum that's a janitor.
And that's when he realizes, oh no, something is wrong,
and that's when the police get involved, the city gets involved.
Her family is questioned, and that's also the time that
(23:53):
Khalil Tatum and his wife Andrea check into a hotel
in Maryland. The next day, that's when the city goes
public with it. You know, there's a huge search. People
are coming through the gardens. But it's also on the
twentieth that Khalil Tita's wife, Andrea is found dead in
a hotel room from.
Speaker 1 (24:12):
A gunshot wound.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
One thing that I think it's really important to point
out in the story is that there is more than
one victim. I spoke with Andrea's daughter, and I'm so
grateful for her time because it was really important to
me because not a lot was known about her, like
what's her story? Like she's missed and her daughter was
just it really left her broken and confused because she
(24:36):
said Khalil loved her mom like he would spoil her.
He was all about her and for him to go
around to go kill her. It's like, okay, well then
what does that say about love? If someone can love
you that much and still harm you? And I think
that's really stuck with her. I asked her, you know,
does that make like being in relationship with people really hard?
And she's like, yeah, I don't know who to trust
(24:58):
because at any point things could go left, things could
get dangerous. You may not even know the person that
you're with, and so I don't know. I just like
to also think of Andrea in that hm, because like
there's just so many victims in this.
Speaker 3 (25:14):
So the last time her mom saw her, is it
February twenty sixth? Is that when it was somebody other
than Khalil and his wife?
Speaker 1 (25:21):
When was that?
Speaker 2 (25:22):
I don't know the exact date, but I know her
aunt was like, Okay, she is gonna hang out with
them till Easter.
Speaker 1 (25:30):
They're gonna go buy her some Easter shoes.
Speaker 2 (25:32):
Like that was sort of the last conversation they had
that you know, oh, Easter's coming up soon.
Speaker 1 (25:38):
We got to get her address and shoes for Easter service.
Speaker 3 (25:42):
How long had they been at the shelter before they
meet Khalil and Andrea and this sort of relationship starts.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
I don't think very long, because it was known that
he would befriend families pretty quickly when they moved in.
I think he gave one girl a fish as a gift.
In her mind was like, I don't like this. You
are stranger given gifts like no. But it also was
not uncommon for kids who were staying at the shelter
to not necessarily be at the shelter. Like, you know,
(26:13):
if you have no family with a house, people would
be more likely to send their kid to go stay
with family. So even though Relitia wasn't necessarily checked in
at night at the shelter, it wasn't that out of
the ordinary because so many kids would stay with friends
and family rather than stay at the shelter.
Speaker 1 (26:30):
So they would not at the shelter.
Speaker 3 (26:31):
And I don't know if this is realistic now, but
they would not track people coming in and out at all,
like and want to know where you're going, mister Anthony,
where are you going?
Speaker 2 (26:40):
Yeah, I mean they were supposed to. I think it
like really fell by the wayside at times. And also
like there's this feeling among families because I've even talked
with families who are in shelter now, and it's this
feeling of like, I'm an adult, I have a family.
Why do I need to check in and out if
I'm a grown person? Like it's this back and forth
between like Okay, is this necessary or is it paternalistic?
(27:02):
But they were supposed to be checking in but they weren't. Also,
you know, Khalil Tatum had a record. I think there's
a conversation to be had about people who have been
incarcerated being able to find work and find jobs. They
should absolutely be able to find work, but according to
DC policy at the time, because of his record, he
was not supposed to be working at that shelter, and
yet he was.
Speaker 3 (27:21):
Well, Okay, how did Antonio feel about Khalil and Andrea?
I mean, did he have an opinion at all? I'm
sure he was just trying to get work and provide
for his family and get them out of there.
Speaker 2 (27:32):
He says that in hindsight it was very weird, but
he had his sons with Shamikha, and Relicia was not
his biological daughter and her mother was very much like
Relicious mine. I make the decision when it comes to
my daughter, like stay out of this. So she vanishes.
She's seen on surveillance video at different hotels.
Speaker 3 (27:54):
Does he call in sick? How would he have accounted
for his time being gone? For my understand, he was
just gone.
Speaker 2 (28:01):
I don't think he was calling in and checking in
or anything like that with them.
Speaker 3 (28:06):
Okay, had he had any other kind of instances I
know you said he had a record, but anything else
that were red flags at the shelter at the time,
and they just said, well, who was we going to
get to do this or was there was nothing happening
with him before this?
Speaker 1 (28:19):
No, like people did not pick up red flags.
Speaker 2 (28:22):
His step daughter, Andrea's daughter, did say the very very
weird thing that he brought up to her mother was
that he was like, oh, I want to get a gun,
and her mother was like, you're a convicted felon.
Speaker 1 (28:37):
You can't own a gun.
Speaker 2 (28:39):
Like also, this is DC Maryland, Like it's it's not
that easy, And it was just they thought it was
weird that he was just like I'm pushing like, yeah,
I want to I want to get a gun, where
it's like you can't.
Speaker 1 (28:50):
You can't because of your record.
Speaker 3 (28:52):
Okay, So would you think talking to experts that this
would be considered grooming today. I don't even know if
we have that term in twenty four Oh, I think
absolutely it does.
Speaker 2 (29:03):
Like you prey on a family that does not have resources,
that is very distracted, would not be thinking, hey, what's
going on? Like people who have been through things themselves,
and then you apply them with gifts you do like
I don't know what he did with that grooming. I
cannot say, like, I do not know that from my reporting,
but I would feel safe saying that, like you're buying
(29:26):
little gifts, you're doing stuff. You also work here, there's
a no fraternization policy, or being kind of that in
and of itself is inappropriate, Like yeah, I think.
Speaker 3 (29:36):
It's safe to say, Okay, so she's seen on surveillance,
but nobody knows where she is. I guess we get
into where the heck has this kid been? And part
of the podcast that you have, especially the trailer, is
it's like your granddaughter's missing. No, she's not, she's at
ex's house. And then you go to X, did you
know your niece is missing? No, No, she's not, she's
(29:57):
at this place. Is that kind of what happened?
Speaker 2 (29:59):
That's exactly like the example I give y'all have seen
home alone, like you know what it's like chaos? Oh
so and so is over there. No, they're over here,
like wires get cross. That is a lot of what happened.
Like if Grandma thinks she's at Auntie's house, if Aunties
thinks she's at you know, Grandma's house, they're not necessarily
(30:20):
gonna question each other and be like, oh where is she?
Versus like, oh, she's with this man?
Speaker 1 (30:26):
Where is she?
Speaker 3 (30:27):
Why did Relicio's family not move in with any of
these people who she trusted enough to take Relicia for,
you know, overnight visits and stuff. Was it just none
of space at these houses the grandmother and the aunt
and these people.
Speaker 2 (30:39):
Yeah, I think it comes down to space, especially when
there are children involved. There's a certain amount of bedrooms,
a certain amount of square footage, like what are the
gender of the kids by x amount of age?
Speaker 1 (30:48):
They should not be sharing rooms.
Speaker 2 (30:50):
It was just I think leaving Licia with Tatum felt
like the easier option for everybody involved, more convenient.
Speaker 3 (30:57):
Okay, you said that she had so I just remember
you saying this. She had some health issues that doctor
Tatum was writing notes for.
Speaker 1 (31:05):
What were the health issues. I'm not exactly sure.
Speaker 2 (31:07):
I know her little brother had asthma, it might have
been something similar. And it's really interesting because children in
low income families, children who are like in apartments where
there are mole where there's mold stuff like that, they're
more likely to develop asthma. So I wouldn't be surprised
if that was part of it. Also, like her brother
was often sick too, so they were preoccupied with that
as well, because.
Speaker 1 (31:27):
He had asthma. But I believe it was some respiratory
stuff but.
Speaker 3 (31:31):
It wasn't not that you wouldn't need an inhaler or
anything for that, but it wasn't like she's diabetic and
she needs to have a shot or she's going to die.
Speaker 1 (31:39):
No, Okay, that's what I was wondering.
Speaker 3 (31:40):
Okay, so she vanishes and then there's this eighteen day period.
Tell me kind of what happens with the family. Who's
the first one I would assume it's her mom is
the first one who makes the call to family members saying, hey,
I haven't seen her Relicia, do you know where she is?
Speaker 1 (31:57):
Or no?
Speaker 2 (31:57):
Well, once the police get involved, that's sort of when
the phone calls to family happened where it's like, hey,
she's with you, right, and it's like, no, she's with
so and so. And that's when sort of the game
of telephone happens. Before those eighteen days, I think Shamikha
was thinking she's with Tatum, She's fine, wow.
Speaker 1 (32:13):
For that long. She was okay with her taking her
for that long? Wow?
Speaker 3 (32:17):
Yeah, And has had that happen before? I mean, had
they gone away for a week or something.
Speaker 2 (32:22):
I mean they've gone out of town before, like they'd
been like, oh, we're going to go to the amusement
park and he had a granddaughter and they would like
play together, like it was like oh yeah, like bring
your swimsuit, we're gonna go to the pool.
Speaker 1 (32:34):
Like it was they were like, yeah, that's his goddaughter.
Speaker 3 (32:37):
And then the social worker shows up and says, truancy
for ten days? What's going on with Relitia? And that's
when is that And that's when you said it all
unraveled right where it was like, oh, I think he's
with this guy with Khalil and his wife and the
social worker gets alarmed and that's where DC police get involved.
Speaker 2 (32:55):
Yeah, I mean because he said, hey, where's doctor Tatum
and the fact that they were like, they're there's no
doctor Tatum, there's a janitor Tatum. That was when it
was like, something is not right, something is wrong.
Speaker 3 (33:06):
What is Shamika's reaction? She's like no, no, no, and
then she starts making the phone calls.
Speaker 1 (33:11):
Is that right? Yeah? I think initially she was like
she's with Tatum, She's fine, Like what do you mean?
Speaker 2 (33:15):
And I think after a while that's when it starts
to hit her like, hey, this is much bigger than
we realized.
Speaker 3 (33:22):
And I'm assuming he's not picking up. Khalil is not
picking up.
Speaker 2 (33:25):
And I will say on April first, Khalil Tatum was
found dead from a self inflicted gunshot wound in a
shed near Kenilworth Park and it was from the same
gun that shot his wife.
Speaker 3 (33:38):
Aside from Khalil and his wife, how many other possibilities
do you think were there for Relicia to go and
stay with different people? Are we talking about just a
couple her aunt and her her grandmother or is it
a bigger one.
Speaker 2 (33:51):
She had cousins, aunts and uncles, but as far as
closeness goes, her grandmother and her aunt were the main ones,
especially since you know Antonio's family, like wasn't her biological family,
and her mom was very like, this is my daughter,
so like, yes, there was community, but like not that
much available. I'm not certain what relicious father was up
(34:14):
to at the time, but not.
Speaker 1 (34:17):
A whole whole lot of options. Okay, her biological father,
her biological father, was he in the picture. I mean
I think he.
Speaker 2 (34:24):
Would be like say hello, but they weren't together, so
I think sometimes you know, when relationships fall apart, relationships
with kids can fall apart two a lot of the time.
Speaker 3 (34:35):
So the police do what they find out that the
only option is that Relicia is with Khalil and his wife,
and they try to get a hold of him. And
you know, this is about what March you said about.
March eighteenth is when they start sounding the arms. March nineteenth.
Speaker 2 (34:50):
Yes, on March nineteenth, that's when they realize, Okay, something
isn't right. And it's on the twentieth that the police
go public. I spoke with a reporter who was covering
it at the time, and you know, whenever there's a
major police presence, if you're a reporter, they're text messages.
They are like, hey, what's going on here? What's going on?
Jackie Benson? And she said when she heard that DC police,
(35:16):
we're at a red roof inn in PG County. That's
when her antenna went up and was like, wait, why
are they over there?
Speaker 1 (35:23):
That's not their jurisdiction.
Speaker 3 (35:25):
So we're starting at March twentieth, and they've seen her
at how many different on video? How many different places
have they seen her? A couple different hotels.
Speaker 2 (35:36):
Two two different hotels, a holiday inn, and a Day's
in that's right across the street from it.
Speaker 3 (35:41):
Okay, and are they all together? Is it the three
of them together? So she's only seen with Tatum on camera?
Speaker 2 (35:49):
Okay, we don't see his wife on camera, at least
not in the publicly available video.
Speaker 1 (35:54):
Did her family Undrea?
Speaker 3 (35:56):
His family say, well, they've got to be together because
we can't get a hold of her either.
Speaker 1 (36:00):
I think so.
Speaker 2 (36:01):
And like she said, Andrea's daughter was saying that. Initially
her mom was like, oh, we're staying in a hotel.
The heat is broken. Her mother's an emic and you
know she would get cold, so it was like, okay,
we're going to stay in a hotel. It's a little
chili still, the heat is broken. So they were at
the hotel. She said it was weird. She could not
get a hold of her mom and she's like, that's weird.
I talked to my mom all the time.
Speaker 3 (36:22):
Were they able to trace with GPS? Is that what
they were doing? How were they figuring out what hotel?
The last hotel they were at was that. I'm not sure.
I'm not sure how they tracked them down.
Speaker 2 (36:34):
It could have been a tip, surveillance, GPS, all types
of ways, but they did find them there at that
red roof in What.
Speaker 3 (36:40):
Was Shamika doing at the time in Antonio now? I
mean were they were they looking or was she falling apart?
Speaker 1 (36:48):
Or what ends up? What's the way that they process
what happened.
Speaker 2 (36:52):
It's so interesting because the disappearance has also led to
different fallouts of the family at different times. There were
times where Shamika and her mother are speaking when they're not,
when Antonio and Shimika are speaking when they're not, when
Antonio is speaking with a grandmother when they're not, Just
a lot of different fallout. The thing that I think
that's interesting about Shamika, I think people have been very
(37:17):
judgmental when it comes to her, and I get where
that comes from, because I know when I played my
mom the Pilot, her first thing was like, as a mother,
how could you not know where your kid is?
Speaker 3 (37:27):
Like?
Speaker 1 (37:27):
How could you not do X Y Z?
Speaker 2 (37:30):
But the more I learned about Shamika, the more I
learned about her upbringing, the more I realized, Oh, there's
a cycle that's kind of repeating here eventually, because at
first she was like, Khalil didn't do it, and she
she has said that, and then you know, she comes
around and goes back, comes around, goes back. I think
(37:51):
Antonio has had like the strongest and most typical reaction
where it's a lot of grief, because I think he's
grieving both Relicia and the fan that he wanted and
kind of wanting the chance to break kind of the
cycle he was living in. You know, his his family,
his kids were taken away. Oh wow, after all of this,
and he was taken away from his family when something
(38:15):
similar happened.
Speaker 1 (38:16):
Why why did that happen? They just determined you're unfit.
Speaker 2 (38:20):
You'll let this little girl go for eighteen days, got
to take the boys. And I think that's been really
really hard for him.
Speaker 1 (38:27):
Oh that's awful.
Speaker 3 (38:28):
Okay, and I do think about that too, you know,
when people get online hate and even though their story
is explained, and you know, your people are figuring out
how much empathy you deserve. Yeah, and particularly women, you know,
women get the brunt of it too.
Speaker 2 (38:42):
I mean, oh yeah, And I mean I get the
knee jerk reaction to be like, how could this happen?
Speaker 1 (38:47):
What do you mean?
Speaker 2 (38:48):
But I think taking a peek behind the curtain and
knowing the resources people have and.
Speaker 1 (38:55):
Don't have, it was very illuminating for me. You know.
Speaker 3 (38:58):
I hope that this is a world a lot of
our listeners, yours and mine, don't have to ever enter,
but oh god, I hope not.
Speaker 1 (39:05):
I think.
Speaker 3 (39:06):
I think when you learn more about it, it doesn't
have to be sympathy or even empathy or anything like that,
but just sort of it's not black and white.
Speaker 1 (39:15):
I mean, you know that the reason.
Speaker 3 (39:17):
I'm sure she did not want this to happen to
her child, But you know, at the same time, it
does show so many failings on so many different levels.
Speaker 2 (39:23):
So yeah. There's a really great write up about Shamika
and her childhood in the Washington Post that came out
around the time, and reading it and also talking with
her family. There are times where I'm like, oh my god,
like did she ever really get a chance? Yeah, And
I think that's the heartbreaking part. It's like did she
ever have a chance.
Speaker 3 (39:42):
So it sounds like the bottom line with this is that, well,
I guess, take me through what happened. So the police,
everybody is all forces starting probably about March twentieth, and
we know that Khalil is found, the last one to
be found, and he's got a self inflicted gunshot wound
on April first. Okay, so you've got ten days basically
(40:02):
until he's discovered. Is there any understanding of what happened
over those ten days aside from I know you said
that Khalil was caught on camera getting.
Speaker 1 (40:10):
Large trash bags.
Speaker 2 (40:11):
I think people fall into two camps either like she
is no longer with us, he killed her, or maybe
some sort of trafficking. And part of me like, really
hope she's still out there. You know she would be
oh gosh, she would be maybe a senior, if not graduated.
Speaker 1 (40:27):
Maybe you know, she hangs out with her friends.
Speaker 2 (40:31):
And I think it's one of those things where like
this may truly be unsolved, And I think one of
the things that also hits me hard about it, and
this is sort of the crux of what we base
the podcast on. But you know, Khalil Tatum has found
dead April first. On April eighth, the mayor at the
time of Vincent Gray, ordered a report into the investigation
(40:52):
of the city's responsibility when it comes to religious disappearance.
And you know, her family was touched by a lot
of social services, Like her mother was in contact with
the Department of Behavioral Health, she was in DC public schools,
she's with homeless services. And I think the part that
really gets me is that September of that same year,
September second, the preface of the report read that quote,
(41:14):
the review team did not find evidence that these tragic
events were preventable. The idea of something like this being
unpreventable does not sit well with me. I think we
can absolutely like there, we can definitely create a world
where there are no more relishes, where this doesn't happen
have to happen to little girls.
Speaker 1 (41:36):
You're right.
Speaker 3 (41:36):
I mean, there were so many social services around her
that it sounded like we're really failing. And we talk
about that with the foster care system too. You know
when things happen, and it's just sad to think it
takes these kinds of stories for people to understand, you know,
what happens sometimes when they are vulnerable, people who become
even more vulnerable. And so Andrea you said, had been killed.
(42:01):
They found her at the inn is that right? The
Red roof in in PG County, Maryland, and it clearly
she had been shot, but not as suicide. No, is
there evidence that Relicia was at that hotel?
Speaker 1 (42:15):
I don't think so. No.
Speaker 2 (42:16):
I don't think they saw her at the Red roof In. No,
they wouldn't have because that was she was last seeding
March first, and that was later.
Speaker 3 (42:22):
But does Shamika remember when they actually said goodbye, we'll
see you in a couple of weeks.
Speaker 1 (42:29):
That's in February, right, yeah, that's February. Yeah. Wow.
Speaker 3 (42:33):
Okay, So there are you talked about? There were some
images of what was it wetlands or something that Kenilworth
Garden tell me how all of that came out. So
they find these people dead and Relicia is nowhere around.
What do the DC police or Maryland whoever is involved
with us at this point, what do they do next?
Speaker 1 (42:53):
To try to figure out where she is. The thing is,
the case is still open. They have not closed this case.
Speaker 2 (42:58):
They're still a know how active they're looking, but the
case is still open.
Speaker 1 (43:02):
So they find these two people dead. Where do you
go from there?
Speaker 3 (43:05):
Where the two people who would know where she is,
you know, are gone and you can't question Them'm assuming
there's no notes or any kind of clues.
Speaker 2 (43:13):
Oh yeah, I mean I think that's also part of it,
like the lack of the lack of answers. And that's
when you sort of start to see you know, I
mean we see this with every case. Internet suits, psychics,
Reddit gets in there, Like that's around the time we
start to see people like saying, okay, like where is she?
Speaker 1 (43:32):
What's going on?
Speaker 2 (43:33):
But yeah, that's and that's also like the tragedy what
happened to Relicia died with Khalil Tatum?
Speaker 3 (43:39):
Yeah, do they end up finding anything? You don't know
about his cell phone or anything like that? I mean
I can't imagine they wouldn't be able to trace something
his car anywhere, GPS anything.
Speaker 1 (43:48):
Yeah, it's all Kennilworth gardens.
Speaker 2 (43:50):
So the kennel Worth gardens there, that's the tragic part too,
is this beautiful like aquatic part of the National Arboretum.
So these beautiful trees, all these paths, things like that,
and you know this didn't make it in the podcast,
but there is a day where we go we retrace
the steps. But I'm telling you people combed every inch
(44:11):
of those gardens and found nothing.
Speaker 1 (44:14):
That was because of his phone that took you guys there.
It was either his phone or a tip. There might
have been a tip of some kind. Was that somebody
seeing him dig up something?
Speaker 2 (44:23):
I think people just seeing him around, like like he
was seen buying the trash bags and the lime and everything.
Speaker 3 (44:29):
Okay, so then you know they did they do any
dragging anywhere, like if she were in a lake or
if there's a water source.
Speaker 2 (44:38):
All of that, like police like searched by water like
it was, people were on foot, there were volunteers, like
they went all through those gardens.
Speaker 1 (44:50):
How and you might know the answer to this.
Speaker 3 (44:52):
And now I'm curious what would they do to be
able to figure out if she ended up, god forbid,
in sex trafficking or something. Is that a DNA you know,
a piece of her DNA? And if she is arrested
or found or somebody in her family had uploaded, you know,
(45:13):
a DNA to a genealogy site. You know, is there
anything that's helpful that would flag something for either law
enforcement or someone that she is actually alive at all.
Speaker 2 (45:25):
Yeah. I think the biggest thing is it's not even DNA,
it's the time progressed pictures. Like every year there is
a new time progressed photo of militia, and every year
there is a vigil where people go out and they
pass the photo around and they post it and media
comes out and we do stories about it, like it
is a very active, active thing.
Speaker 1 (45:46):
Have you hooked up with the women who I interviewed
at Black and Missing? Oh yeah, they were a major part.
Speaker 2 (45:53):
They were unbelievably helpful as we reported the story. And
also they're so good on giving the context of where this.
Like I said before, relicious story is kind of different
than a lot of stories we hear because she did
get attention and that doesn't happen. And I think you
can mark how well a society is doing by how
(46:15):
the most marginalized people within that society are treated, and
I think Relicia kind of sits at that intersection of
like she is black, she is a little girl, she
is a child, and those are three groups of people
that we do not necessarily treat the best. Yeah, I
think it's sort of like a if you want to
know how a society is doing, look at the people
who are most marginalized. But yeah, they were absolutely amazing
(46:37):
and they were there. They were like on the ground
part of that search when Relicia first went missing. They
were out there with the police, out there with the
volunteers looking through Kenilworth aquatic gardens.
Speaker 3 (46:49):
What is the theory about what happened as far as
why you know Tatum and his wife would have taken
her to begin with, as in sexual or wanting to
just co opt her as their daughter. I felt like
it's somewhat unusual to have a couple doing.
Speaker 2 (47:06):
This from what the reporting I've done in people I've
talked with, like Andrea was kind of like in the
dark pretty much like it. Mainly like Khalil, Tatum was
the one who forged this relationship with this family. I
don't know, but a lot of people are like, this
is a man who like grooms people. It was not
a good situation. Now what that means again, I do
(47:28):
not know. That's that's the reporter in me who's like, well,
I gotta like get for certain and get on records,
so I don't have that.
Speaker 1 (47:36):
But yeah, it was not a great situation.
Speaker 2 (47:39):
And I also think part of like what led to
Andrea's death and his death was like, oh, people know
something is up now, and like panic ensues, okay, and
decisions are made now.
Speaker 3 (47:52):
The family members that you spoke with, how were they grieving?
Are Is there hope that she's still alive or is it?
It's sort of like a feeling that all the evidence
points to her not being alive, and then you have
to think about how do you grieve when there's no
body and there's still uncertainty.
Speaker 2 (48:09):
I think there is a level of hope from some
Her grandmother, in fact, during an interview, she uses the
past tense and catches herself and starts using the present tense. Also,
she has a trunk with Birthday and Christmas gifts she's
gotten for Relicia every year because she's like, oh, when
she comes home, she's gonna want to come home to gifts.
(48:31):
And you know, it started with dolls and things like that,
but as she got older, she's like, oh, I got
her like earrings. I got her body spray because you know,
teenagers like to smell good. I think that's her own
way of coping. I don't know that we will ever
find out what happened to Relicia. There's a part of
me that really hopes so, but I think, yeah, I
think her family goes back and forth to between she's
(48:52):
not coming home and like, well, maybe she will walk
through the door one day.
Speaker 1 (48:56):
You hear stories of that sometimes. What about Shamika and Antonio.
I mean we hear about Antonio.
Speaker 3 (49:02):
He lost his two sons because of this, so there's
that fallout. I'm assuming they're not together anymore.
Speaker 1 (49:08):
Oh, no, they are.
Speaker 2 (49:09):
They are no longer together. I think the case really
broke them like that. It really it split that family up.
I think Antonio's focus now is his family. I need
to check in with him. But last I heard like
he was making headway with getting one of his sons
back and living near him, and that's kind of like
what he's been really focusing on. I think they both
(49:31):
hold out hope. Shamikha I was not able to get
on the record on the phone. You know, lots of calls.
In fact, if she's hit me up today, I'd be like, Yeah,
let's sit down, let's talk, let's do an interview. But
she doesn't really talk to the press, which I do understand.
You know, there was this episode that she, Antonio, and
(49:51):
her mother were on on The Steve Wilco Show, and
it just it very much feels like a circus, for
lack of a better term.
Speaker 1 (49:58):
Like what in fighting? Ye?
Speaker 2 (50:00):
Yeah, it's this salacious feel. It's like are you going
to take a lie detector test? It's the family arguing
with each other in front of a crowd while a
crowd like.
Speaker 1 (50:07):
Jeers or cheers them on.
Speaker 2 (50:09):
Really yeah, Honestly, if I had experience like that would
be I would not.
Speaker 1 (50:14):
I would not either. Why did they do that that I.
Speaker 2 (50:17):
Don't know, but I think they were like, yeah, come
do the show. They're like okay, And you know, after that,
they talked to the media a lot less. And that
was until it came through that the podcast was actually
going to happen. I really hesitated with reaching out to
Relicious family because I did not want to start that
process if it was not going to happen. What's wild is,
(50:38):
I messaged Antonio on Facebook. That's how I got in
contact with him, and I was like, Hey, I'm working
on this podcast, like I want to hear your story,
and his response was, I've been waiting for someone to
call me. I've been waiting to tell this story, and
I don't know. I feel very fortunate when people open
up to me, and so every time anyone opens up
(50:59):
to me, especially bout something so traumatic, I feel very
grateful that they trust me with their story.
Speaker 3 (51:17):
If you love historical true crime stories, check out the
audio versions of my books The Ghost Club, All That
Is Wicked, and American Sherlock and Don't Forget. There are
twelve seasons of my historical true crime podcast Tenfold More
Wicked right here in this podcast feed, scroll back and
give them a listen if you haven't already. This has
been an exactly right production. Our senior producer is Alexis M.
Speaker 1 (51:40):
Morosi. Our associate producer.
Speaker 3 (51:43):
Is Christina Chamberlain. This episode was mixed by John Bradley.
Curtis heath Is our composer, artwork by Nick Toga. Executive
produced by Georgia Hartstark, Karen Kilgarriff and Danielle Kramer. Listen
to Wicked Words on the iHeartRadio app Apple podcasts, or
wherever you get your podcasts. Follow wicked Words on Instagram
(52:04):
at tenfold More Wicked, and on Facebook at wicked words
pod
Host
Kate Winkler Dawson
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