This week on the show I'm joined by Chris Wood, President/CEO of Trout Unlimited and former U.S. Forest Service official, to discuss how our nation came to protect 58.5 million acres of our last roadless areas, why the government today is trying to remove those protections, and what that will mean for hunters, anglers, and wildlife.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, your guide to
the white tail Woods, presented by first Light, creating proven
versatile hunting apparel for the stand, saddle or blind. First
Light Go Farther, Stay Longer, and now your host, Mark Kenyon,
Welcome to the.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Wired to Hunt Podcast.
Speaker 3 (00:22):
Today we are going to be discussing how we came
to have fifty eight point five million acres of protected
roadless areas here in the United States of America, and
how those same roadless areas, those best places to hunt
and fish and get away from the crowds, might very
well be threatened in a new and profound way. And
(00:43):
joining us for this discussion is Chris Wood, a hunter,
an angler, and the president and CEO of Trout Unlimited.
All right, welcome back to the Wired to Hunt podcast,
brought to you First Light and their Camo for Conservation Initiative.
(01:04):
And today we are talking roadless areas, those spots on
the map that are left just a little bit more
blank than the rest, Those places where you can get
away from the crowds, those spots that we're all looking
for to try to find that last best honey hole
for white tails, or maybe deep in that high mountain
(01:25):
basin where you can find those bugling bowls, or maybe
where you want to follow those little blue lines to
find those high alpine cutthroat streams.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
These last best places that are.
Speaker 3 (01:36):
Protected from roads and everything that comes with them. If
you remember earlier the spring, we had a really interesting
chat with Ben Goldfarb. He's the author of a book
called Crossings. It was all about the impact of roads
on wildlife and wild places, and to sum that book
up very very succinctly, roads have a huge impact. Now.
(01:58):
Of course, we need some roads to get access to
these places, and we have many, many, many of them.
In the case of the topic we'll be discussing today,
we're talking about US Forest Service lands, where there are
nearly four hundred thousand miles of roads already. But there
are these last places that have been protected for those
of us who want to get back in there and
(02:18):
have a wilder experience. Those same places are now threatened
in a really profound way. There's a rule that most
folks don't know about. It was called the roadless area rule,
and this protected, as I mentioned at the top, more
than fifty eight million acres of roadless areas left in
our forest system. Those have been, like I said, really
(02:40):
really special places for many of us, kind of unbeknownst
to us they're protected in this special way. Well, recently
the government has proposed removing that rule and opening up
this fifty eight million acres of backcountry wild wide open
places to new roads and development. So what's that going
to mean for hunting, What's that going to mean for fishing?
What's that going to mean for the elk and deer
(03:02):
and bears and fish and critics of all types that
live there. That's the question or those are the questions
that we are going to be answering today. And my
guest is somebody who has a really deep understanding of
this issue and of this protection, this roadless Area rule,
because he actually helped write it.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
Our guest today is Chris Wood.
Speaker 3 (03:23):
He is currently the president and CEO of Trout Unlimited,
but in his former life he did work for the
US Forest Service, and he helped the Chief of the
Forest Service back at this period late nineties early two
thousands to develop this rule, develop these protections, and to
really come to this decision that this is the best
long term decision to protect these last places for future
(03:47):
generations or wildlife, for hunting and angling, and so so
many other reasons. So today Chris is going to help
us understand the history, how these places came to be,
how these places were protected, why the roadless rule is
so important, what has done, what it has done for
hunting and fishing and wildlife and so many other things.
And we're also going to discuss some of the controversy
(04:10):
around it. What have been the arguments that people who've
been against this protection, what are those arguments been, And
then a whole bunch of explanation of why this has
been such a smart protection to put in place, Why
these places are worth protecting and conserving and keeping around
not just for us now, but for our kids and
grandkids and all those that come after us. Finally, we
(04:34):
are going to discuss what happens if the proposed rollback
of this rule actually happens.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
What happens if these.
Speaker 3 (04:41):
Fifty eight point five million acres of our last roless
areas end up getting re roaded or newly roaded. What
ends up if they end up developed in new ways
than they have been in the past. What's that future
look like. Is there any reason or a way for
us to stop that? Do we have any influence at
that point. These are the questions and the topics we
discussed today with Chris Wood. He is a tremendous spokesperson.
(05:04):
He has a lot to share, a lot of experience.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
Whether you are.
Speaker 3 (05:08):
A white tail hunter, or an elk hunter, or a
black bear hunter, or a trout angler, or somebody who
just likes to every once in a while get away
from the crowds.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
This is a conversation that is.
Speaker 3 (05:20):
Going to be really important for you to hear, to understand,
and I hope to take action on. So, without any
further beating around the bush, let's get to my chat
today with Chris Wood about the history and the future
of America's last roadless areas.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
All right with me now, is Chris Wood? Welcome to
the show.
Speaker 4 (05:47):
Chris, Thanks Mark, it's great to be here.
Speaker 3 (05:50):
I'm very excited to have this chat today for multiple reasons.
One of the reasons, and this is like the ancillary one.
The main reason is because of the time topic. But
the secondary reason I'm so excited is that parallel to
my love of hunting and whitetails especially, I have an
equal love for fly fishing that over the last fifteen
(06:13):
years has been growing and growing and growing and maybe
almost superseding my hunting obsession. But I rarely get to
have someone on the show who is as obsessed as
I am, or more obsessed than I am, on those
sets of topics. So it's great to share a podcast
today with a fellow trout nut in fly fishing a fishionado.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
So thank you for bringing that to the show today.
Speaker 4 (06:36):
Yeah, man, of course, Mark, I'm also a big time
whitetail hunter, and I like that you said a fly
fishing a ficionado, because even though I get I have
the privilege of working for Trout Unlimited, I love catching
anything that swims on my fly.
Speaker 3 (06:55):
Yeah. Yeah, I understand you do a lot there on
the Potomac and some of your local rivers on the
East side there.
Speaker 4 (07:00):
Yes, yeah, yeah. I've been known to ride my bike
to work with a broken down fly rod held on
my handlebars and I'll hop off and I'll fish some
of our little urban creeks at different times of the year.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
That's amazing.
Speaker 3 (07:13):
I love you know. This is this idea of like
micro adventures. So many people think that you need to
travel out west or go to some big, far flung
destination to have a wild experience and to connect with.
Speaker 2 (07:25):
The natural world.
Speaker 3 (07:26):
But but I think what you're talking about right there
is is a really great example of finding that wildness
wherever you are, right yeah.
Speaker 4 (07:33):
Man, you know, we actually did. We have a wonderful magazine.
For those of you who aren't members, you should become
a member just to get the magazine. But we did
this issue called Blue Lines. And you know, Blue Lines
for me was a famous book that I had heard
about when I was a kid, by an author named
William least heat Moon. And what he did was he
traveled the small ancillary highways across America, staying off the interstates,
(07:57):
and I think it was called Blue Lines actually. But
but you know, what we meant in the magazine of
Black Blue Lions was getting off the Madison, getting off
the gallot and getting up into the headwaters of these systems,
getting up into some of these roadless areas that have these,
you know, really high populations of genetically pure native trout
and salmon. But in an urban environment, we have blue
(08:20):
lions too. You know. We've got this wonderful river, the Potomac,
which is very underfished in its own right, but we
have these tributaries that feed into it. And I can't
tell you how many times, in a city of you know,
seven hundred thousand people, I have found myself the only
person on an urban fishery catching fish handover fist. I
(08:42):
love it well.
Speaker 2 (08:43):
I don't know a lot about the Potomac.
Speaker 3 (08:44):
I've never fished there, but I just finished reading a
book called The Silent Spring Revolution by Douglas Brinkley. I
don't know if you're familiar with that one.
Speaker 4 (08:52):
I know Douglas Brinkley, but I haven't read that book.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
Yeah, it's a terrific book.
Speaker 3 (08:55):
It's all about the environmental history of the long sixties,
so the sixties, the early seventies, and there was a
whole lot in there about William Douglas, the Supreme Court justice,
who was a tremendous conservationist. I don't think a lot
of people today remember that, but he fought so hard
to protect that. I guess there's a canal that runs
somewhere around there as well, the O and O Canal,
(09:17):
Is that right?
Speaker 2 (09:19):
You can that's it?
Speaker 3 (09:20):
And there's a hiking trail through there that he, you know,
ended up helping secure as a national park now and
and all sorts of stuff. So I learned a lot
about that region that was really interesting. And and turns
out there's some really special places that are left in
a somewhat wild, undeveloped place because of you know, advocacy
for those close to home places.
Speaker 4 (09:40):
That's no, that's exactly right. I mean, it's I could
go on and on here, and you're you're catching me.
As we talked about before the call. My mom just
passed away on Monday. But mom and dad met in Washington,
d c. And Dad went to school at Georgetown, which
is on the banks of the Potomac, and then he
went to law school there. And here me talking about
(10:00):
going down there. We have a wonderful shad run that
happens in the spring of the year and shattered down
across the entire northeast, but in the Potomac there on
the way back up. And my father would say, you
go to the Potomac, And he said, man, when I
was in school there in the sixties, to your point,
we wouldn't go near there for fear of getting sick.
He used to fear that they would get sick on
the river. And today that C and O Canal that
(10:23):
you're talking about although the Park Service is taking a
long time to fix some parts of the canal and
so it's been drained, but it's a wonderful carp fishery
fly for flyer writters. You can bike along that path
that you mentioned that people hike and you look for
tailing carp and it's just it's the coolest experience to
(10:44):
be in a city, in that city, right in the
in the birthplace of the clean water, for gosh sake,
and you know, almost in the span of my lifetime
to see that river turn around from one that was
a scary place that people wouldn't go for fear of
getting sick, to one that today when I take my
kids out there to fish, when the shad move up
(11:04):
the river because the stripers are following them, and the
ale wives are in the river, and all the you know,
the birds of prey, the osprey, the bald eagles. Last
year we saw two bald eagles juveniles chasing away a
golden eagle. We've got comorant. I mean, it's just the
diversity of life in the river is incredible, and it's
(11:25):
because of people like William Douglas and others in the
sixties and the seventies who basically said this is a
national disgrace. There is absolutely no reason that the nation's
river shouldn't be clean and healthy, and it is so
much more so today than it was back then thanks
to those giants.
Speaker 3 (11:45):
Yeah, well, it's a perfect segue into our topic today
because we can look back there in the sixties and
seventies and see where many places had gone downhill tremendously
and had to be restored. But at the same time,
there was also the beginning. I mean, it's been going
on for decades and decades before that, but there were
significant updates to protections for those last places that were
(12:10):
in a healthy state. And that leads us to what
we're going to talk about today, which is another such
set of protections that have kept some of our last
wild roadless healthy watersheds and forests and landscapes in that state. So,
without further ado, I guess we should just get right
into it, Chris, And what I'd love to start with
(12:31):
is a elevator pitch. If you were on the elevator
with a hunter or angler who was not familiar with
the roadless rule, but they've been hearing it kind of
buzzed around the last month or so, as more and
more people are talking about it, I'd love to hear
your elevator pitch on what the Roadless Rule is, why
it's relevant to hunters and anglers, and what they should
(12:53):
know about it to start this conversation.
Speaker 2 (12:55):
So that's that's step one. Yeah, we'll leave it that.
I'll I'll let you start with that and then we'll
move for.
Speaker 4 (13:00):
Yeah, that's that's great, Thank you for that question. The
Roadless Rule protects fifty eight and a half million acres
of some of the finest hunting and fishing habitat on
the planet. And that's why you should care if you
hunt and you fish, especially if you hunt and fish
on public lands, even private because a lot of times
the game is making you know, it's winter habitat is
(13:23):
you know, is up on public lands and then it
moves down onto the private lands depending on the species.
But if you fish or hunt, especially if you fish
or hunt on public lands and waters, you need to
make your voice heard to keep these landscapes protected because
they are they're the goose that lays the golden egg
(13:44):
for all of us.
Speaker 2 (13:45):
Yeah, okay, that's a very good succinct. Setting the stage
for us.
Speaker 3 (13:50):
Now, I want to rewind the tape and I want
to get in deep and start with how it all began.
And you are the perfect person to help us with us, because,
as I understand it, you are quite intricately involved in
developing this set of protections, the Rowless Rule. So how
did you get involved with the Royless Rule? What did
that look like for you personally?
Speaker 4 (14:10):
Such a good question. Mark, Yeah, when we when I
started working on this rule, I had a full head
of brown hair. But you can't tell it's not brown anymore,
and it ain't full either. So I'll get to the
personal point in a minute, but I think the institutional
point is almost just as important. So from from nineteen
(14:31):
sixty to nineteen eighty nine, the United States Forest Service,
which was held up in the sixties, going back to
that era of the sixties by some of the famous
historians of the ear people like Harold Stein, they used
to hold the Forest Service up as this, you know,
sort of this iconic agency, this fable to spree decors
(14:54):
and people who all had the same sense of mission.
And so basically what happened after before World War Two,
the agency was very much created by some of our
you know our legendary conservation fore bears like Theodore Roosevelt
and Gifford Pinchot to basically be an antidote to the
(15:14):
rapacious private timber industry which had been liquidating forests. Basically,
they started in New England. They marched down to the southeast,
they march up to the Great Lakes, and then they
moved their way across west the west. And it was
before we had forest management practices acts, before there was
a Clean Water Act, I mean, and people didn't know
they were They were just making a living and they
(15:36):
were creating homes for all of us. I mean, so
some of us live in those homes to this day
that were created from some of that land. I've got
a nineteen o six row house in Washington, d c.
With hart pine flooring. It's yellow pine without a blemish
in it. You wouldn't know it as pine today. But
these were big old yellow pines that they cut in
(15:57):
the southeast and made into flooring because they're so the
hard wood is even though it's a soft wood technically
though it's a very hard wood. It's perfect for flooring anyway.
But and what happened from the sixth basically after World
War Two, when everyone, all the servicemen returned home, the
Forest Service turned toward helping to meet the wood fiber
needs of the nation. And so as a result, between
(16:21):
nineteen sixty and nineteen eighty nine, and this is just
as a unit of measurement, it's less important to know
what it means, the agency allowed for the production of
about nine to twelve billion board feet of timber a year.
And just as a frame of reference, it costs it
takes about thirty thousand board feet to create a single
(16:41):
family home. And it was consistent nine to twelve billion
board feet.
Speaker 1 (16:47):
It was.
Speaker 4 (16:47):
It varied in different parts of the country, but there
was an especial emphasis in the seventies and the eighties
in the Pacific Northwest. And that all came crashing down
nineteen in the late eighties. And so what had happened
as the agency had created a series of rules that
said they had to create these minimum they had to
protect minimum viable populations of species. And we had passed
(17:11):
laws like the Endangered Species Act, which are designed to
keep species from winking out, from going extinct. And so
there was a little furtive owl, a native owl called
the northern spotted owl which habituated these old growth forests
in Washington, Oregon, different parts of the Pacific Northwest, and
(17:32):
that's where the bread basket of the timber industry was.
That's where they were really cutting. In a couple of
those separate forests, they were taken out over a billion
board feet of timber from one forest a year, and
so that all stopped. There was a judge in the
Pacific Northwest who ruled that the agency had been demonstrating
a quote reckless disregard for the law in how it
(17:54):
was managing these forests, because it had gone from taking
this very sort of custodial approach which to protecting public
lands into this we've got to get the cutout to
meet the growing, you know, timber needs of the nation. Again,
completely well intentioned, no malice here, no ill will. And
at the same time that those spotted owls were declining,
(18:15):
we saw these precipitous declines in salmon and steelhead populations.
Back in the nineties. There were early nineties there was
a seminole paper that came out that documented one hundred
and six stocks of salmon from the Pacific Northwest that
had already become extinct and two hundred and fifteen that
were then at risk of extinction. And so that was
(18:37):
nineteen eighty nine that that injunction on timber harvest came down.
And from nineteen eighty nine until the time that Mike
Dombeck became chief eight years later, they had been cutting
about two to three and a half billion board feet
of timber, so down from twelve to two or three billion.
And the whole edifice of the Forest Service, this forty
(18:59):
thousand strong organization that oversees one hundred and ninety three
million acres of public land, it was built on the
back of this timbersale program. The biologists that so many
of us respected and knew as young professionals, they came up.
They were being paid for by proceeds from timber sale receipts.
(19:20):
All the roads that we used to access National Forest
to hunt and fish, those were built to facilitate timbersale.
And so the agency had been in this eight year
period of transition when Mike Dombeck became chief in ninety seven,
and it had completely lost its way. The agenda was
being driven by the environmental community who was litigating the
(19:43):
Forest Service into obsolescence. There were many in Congress who
were unhappy that the Forest Service wasn't getting cut out.
They weren't cutting the nine to twelve billion board feet
of timber anymore. There was an equal number on the
other side, who you know, we're looking at things like
the fact that the agency had oversight of a three
(20:05):
hundred and eighty six hundred thousand mile road systems wrap
your head around in a minute, and we were over
and there was about an eight and a half billion
dollar with a b backlog on maintenance of that existing
road system. And so I think what what Mike and
others of us who were in the agency at that
(20:26):
time decided, was, you know, why should the Forest Service
let other people dictate this storied conservation organization where people
like Arthur Carrhart worked and Bob Marshall and Aldo Leopold,
I mean, the fathers in this case of Rachel Carson
was of course efficient Wildlife Service employee. I wish we
could have claimed her, but you know, really the fathers
(20:49):
of the modern conservation movement, of the North American wildlife
model came out of the Forest Service, and yet the
agency had this historically very uneasy relationship with wilderness. And
even though Arthur Carhart and Bob Marshall and Aldo Leopold
in particular, are really the the whole wilderness concept originated
(21:12):
from that. The agency had this uneasy relationship with it
because when you designate wilderness and these are you know,
for the Act, these are lands where quote man is
a visitor who you know does not remain so and
you can't use any mechanical leverage when you're in wilderness.
You have to use your feet that God gave you.
And you know, that was almost anathema to how the
(21:35):
agency had begun to evolve through the sixties and the
seventies in the eighties, where it was this highly mechanistic,
highly you know, engineered organization where it's like, we're going
to go build these roads into these steep slope areas.
We're going to cut those trees we haven't been able
to access because we have better technology today, and then,
by God, we're going to take that wood and get
it to market. And then what would happen is as
(21:57):
the easier wood got taken off the National Forest System,
the slopes that you had to climb to get to
the timber that was left were steeper, and they were
on more granitek or erosed soils, and the timber that
was left it wasn't as valuable. So now the agency
was pumping these roads into these low value areas where
they weren't getting the timber values they had historically gotten.
(22:19):
So they were losing money on these sales. They were
building these roads that were falling off the landscape into
these trout and salmon streams that were below them, and
they had this eight and a half billion dollar maintenance
backlog on the existing road system. And it was from
that background and agency's morale was in the tank. It
was absolutely so. I mentioned Harold Steen in that nineteen
(22:41):
sixty one work where he talked about the fabled spreed
core of the Forest Service. In their early nineties, they
came out with another survey of all the government agencies
in the federal government, and the number two agency with
the lowest morale was the US Forest And from that background,
(23:02):
that's when you know, we said, well, wait a minute,
most Americans value their public lands not for energy development,
not for oil or gas or coal. Those are important.
They don't value them for wood, fiber or for forage.
Those are also important, But most of us we value
those places for the sense of naturalness they provide, and
(23:23):
the wildness and clean water, and the fish and wildlife habitat,
and the fact that they are what remains. They're the
you know, I have said this before in a different context,
but the public lands are They're the anvil upon which
the character of the nation was hammered out as we
migrated our way west. And unlike every other country in
(23:44):
the world, we had the wisdom to keep them intact,
to save them, because we realized that just as you know,
you you know, the Egyptians take pride in their in
their pyramids, and in Italy prides itself on its ancient cathedrals.
France it's museums. We have our public lands, and those
(24:04):
are as much as what it means to be American
as anything else in the United States. And so anyway,
that was the backdrop, and I think Mike, who was
leading this organization, was saying, I don't want the courts
to be driving our conservation agenda. And God bless the
environmental community, because if they hadn't raised the alarm, we
(24:25):
probably would have taken all the old growth. But I
don't want them driving our agenda either, And you know,
I really don't want members of Congress who definitely have
to appropriate the dollars we need. But you know, there's
very few foresters in Congress. They shouldn't be driving the agenda.
Let's take back. Let's take back the agenda. The first
(24:54):
thing he said was, look, you know we were governed
in large park by We called it the rule of holes.
And I'll stop here, Marcus, I probably gave you more
than you wanted. The rule of holes. It's quite simple.
When you're dig in a hole and you find yourself
over your head, the first thing to do is put
down the shovel, and that's what we wanted to do.
(25:15):
We wanted to put down the shovel. It's like, look,
we can't take care of this road system we already have.
It's three hundred and eighty six thousand miles strong, but
it's fallen off these hillsides into creeks all across the
United States. Let's focus on doing a better job of
managing access into our national forests. So because people love
to get in there, but also let's realize that these
(25:36):
remaining roadless areas, as I said earlier, the timber values
are typically low. They're hard to get to, or we
would have cut them previously, and what's happened over time
is their fish and wildlife values have just flown off
the chart. And so we said there is an inherent
value in keeping these places wild. Let's keep them wild.
Speaker 1 (25:58):
Now.
Speaker 4 (25:58):
That doesn't mean you can't go in to them. I mean,
we'll talk about this when we talk about this proposal
that's been offered by the administration. But there's been a
ton of management that has occurred in these roads areas.
But what it means is you don't need to pump
a road in everywhere. Yeah right, you know. I mean,
today's technology is so much better than it was in
the sixties and the seventies, where you couldn't do a
(26:20):
timber sale back then if you didn't build a road.
That is not the case today. And so anyway, that's
what that was the backdrop that led to, you know,
the promulgation of the roadless Area Conservation Rule, which ended
up protecting fifty eight and a half million acres back
in two thousand and one.
Speaker 3 (26:40):
That is an amazing context for us, and that's perfect
And to your point, there's all these important resources that
we can garner from our public lands. But one of
those resources that is becoming more and more rare across
the world, and by default more and more valuable. Because
of that are those las few unroaded places. We have
(27:02):
transformed more than fifty percent of the Earth's surface, Far
more of our forests, far more of our grasslands have disappeared.
I mean we have across this nation. We have so
few places left like this. And you know, Roosevelt and
Pinchot when they were establishing all this, they spoke about
maybe the north star of all of our management should
(27:23):
be thinking about future generations, not making decisions for the
short term only, but also thinking about the long term.
Speaker 4 (27:30):
I think that is well, you just you nailed it. Mark.
In fact, Gifford Pinchot, you know this is one of
these things. Those of us who are in DC love
these things, and I've been involved in this too. He
wrote direction for the Secretary of Agriculture to then be
given to himself. The direction that he wrote was that
the national forests should be managed for the greatest number,
(27:53):
for the longest time. And I'm getting that quote wrong,
And I know my friends from the Forest Service are
going to get mad at me for not remember but.
Speaker 2 (28:00):
The greatest number, for the greatest good for the longest time.
Speaker 4 (28:03):
For the longest time. That's it. Thank you, Mark, you
just saved me. But that's the that's the point, right,
I mean when when when these reserves, they were called
forest reserves, were created, they were designed to be almost
like a bulwark against the liquidation of timberlands across private
(28:23):
land across America and state lands. I mean, that's you know,
one of the reasons that organizations like Child Unlimited have
a hard time looking at, you know this notion, well,
we won't divest your public lands. We won't sell them
to rich people who are going to build fences and
post them no no trespassing. We'll just give them to
the states to manage. Well, most of the states, almost
(28:44):
all the western states, have constitutional mandates to manage their
state lands to generate revenues for schools and roads. And
so that's why most of the states have sold most
of their state lands. And that would exactly be the
future of the National Forests or the BLM public plans,
which is why you know, what the Senate was considering
a month or so ago was so by the time
(29:06):
this is shown, was you know, considered offensive to so
many of us who hunt and fish. But what Pinchot
and Roosevelt and those early pioneers in the Forest Service
saw is that these are lands that should be managed
conservatively for the long run. And the most conservative, I mean,
one of the most conservative policies that I can think
(29:28):
of that the US government has implemented over the past
twenty five years is the Roadless Area Conservation Rule because
it basically says we're going to keep intact these systems
that are unroaded. They're not unmanaged. You know, we can
talk about that there's been a ton of forest health
treatments in these in these roadless area landscapes. But you know,
(29:52):
the true definition of conservation is to It comes from
the Latin word conservaari conservai, and that means to hold
or keep in a safe state. And that's precisely what
the roadless Rule did, is it keptain held in a
safe state these backcountry areas.
Speaker 3 (30:09):
Okay, So that is what led us to this point
where the Forest Service realized, Okay, we need to do
something a little bit different. We need to regain some
sense of agency for our agency. Yeah, to termine how this.
Speaker 2 (30:24):
Thing is going to move forward.
Speaker 3 (30:26):
Can you spell out for me how how you and
the Chief chief domback and the rest of the team
were able to develop the road the roadless rule as.
Speaker 2 (30:37):
It as it stands. Now what that looked like.
Speaker 3 (30:39):
And I know there was so much controversy, There was
so much back and forth, something like one point six
million public comments, I believe on the proposal. So I'd
love to understand what that looked like and then what
led to the final output, Like what the final output
looked like given all of this back and forth and
public perspectives and everything like that.
Speaker 4 (31:00):
Yeah, you know, so one of the things I've appreciated
about I started my career early on at the Bureau
of Land Management and then and then I moved over
to the Forest Service during this period that we're talking about,
and you know, the wisdom that was imparted to me
by these long time career professionals has guided me to
(31:22):
this day. And I I've written about this in the past.
It's what's so offensive to me about how a lot
of these public servants have been treated because they're good people.
And there's not a single person who didn't go to
work for the US Forest Service or the Bureau of
Land Management, not a single one who didn't go because
they wanted to make the world a better place. That's
(31:42):
what they all wanted. And so but I say that,
but what I wasn't hampered with at that time in
my life was a thirty year career at the same agency.
And so you know, it's why I alwaysppreciate, you know,
with Trout Unlimited, when we bring in younger people into
(32:05):
the management ranks or into leadership positions, because they just
look at the world slightly different. They're not stuck in
the same ruts that I'm now stuck. But at the time,
I remember thinking, so, we've got this an eight and
a half billion dollar maintenance backlog. We've got a road
system we can't take care of. The other thing I
hadn't mentioned is that the House of Representatives had passed
(32:27):
a vote and amendment that would have cut the Forest
Service's road budget by eighty percent, including all the maintenance
of the existing road system. And they did that as
a surrogate to get us to stop building new roads
into roads. Every one of these roadless sales, every one
of them were litigated. They were all held up in court.
(32:49):
And we're talking about timber sales that lose money. So
it's like we're expending public tax dollars to get into
these areas that have low timber values, to put a
bunch of roads on the landscape that are going to
fall off, and they're going to ruin the fisheries down below.
And by the way, they're going to increase fire starts
because roads increase fire starts, and they're going to drive
out ungulate they're going to drive out wild populations. And
(33:13):
so I looked at that, you know, the eyes of it,
you know, a young guy, and I was like, well,
why are we doing this at all? Right, like if
we can't get the timber out anyway. It was a
completely incidental contribution to the Forest Service timber base. I
mean we're talking this was less than it was like
a percent, and that was a that was a prixotic
(33:36):
percent because it was always held up in court for
fifteen years. So the value of that percent decreased over
every year that it was held up at court. And
and so we just and then and then we started
thinking about, like, well, what is it most people really
care about public lands for? And again it command we
had been managing these landscapes for thirty forty years as
(33:58):
this bread basket of commodity to be brought to market.
But but nobody else thought of them that way. These
were places where families that couldn't afford to go to,
you know, a resort, would take their kids camping in
the summer. They were places where, you know, when you know,
I have the benefit of working a child unlimited, and
sometimes I get to go to these swank places where
(34:19):
you know, it costs like thousand dollars a day to fish.
Most Americans can't afford that. We can go to your
public lands. You can catch brook chout in the Green
Mountain National Forest to your heart's content or closer to me, uh,
you know the you know, the Monogahila in West Virginia
for brook chowd or out west. There's countless national forests
where you can go to, all of which are strongholds
(34:40):
for native fish. And so we realized that was the seat,
that was the switch we had to make, and frankly
it was it was incredibly controversial, not only outside the
Forest Service but inside the agency. It was controversial because
you had these people who, you know, their forest their
engineers there there can do people, they solve problems, they
(35:05):
know how to fix things, and they were like, no,
we can build better roads. We can, we can you know,
figure out different ways to get into those back country areas.
And it was like, yeah, we could, and I don't
doubt that, but we could also just leave them alone,
just leave them as God created them. Let's have what's
wrong with having some reference landscapes from a fish and
wildlife perspective, and you know how big the hunting and
(35:26):
fishing economies are in this country. Those are our nurseries. Man,
Let's leave them alone. They're not going anywhere if we
discover some you know, you know, rare earth mineral that's
gonna you know, save America from being colonized by Martians
down the line, and we need to go get it. Okay, fine,
well go get it, but for now, let's just leave
them intact. And that was the big shift in thinking
(35:51):
that happened back when we did the rule, and it was,
as I say, it was incredibly controversial internally. It was
also controversial externally kind of sort of of those ninety
you know, of those you know, one point eight million,
I think it was comments that came in ninety seven
freaking percent were in support of protecting roadless soviets or
even stronger. And the one thing I would say I
(36:13):
would be remiss not to say, was there has been
a sea change in thinking at the Forest Service over
the past twenty four years, and today some of the
strongest advocates for roadless protection come from within the United
States Forest Service. This is not a proposal that they
would have put out there, guaranteed. This is not being
(36:35):
driven by the professionals and for a service. You know,
this is a political directive that's been given to them,
and I don't know that they have the stomach for this.
So we'll have to see what happens through this rulemaking
because I I think, as I said earlier, I think
some of the strongest advocates for roadless protection today are
United States Forest Service employees, and I don't think they
(36:57):
want to go back to the battle days where everything's
going to get litigated and held up in court.
Speaker 3 (37:02):
So so you helped write this correct You worked with
the chief and the.
Speaker 2 (37:07):
Staff there to actually develop Yeah, there was a team.
Speaker 4 (37:10):
There was a team of agency professionals who did almost
all the heavy lifting. I was I was like the
style game, okay, you know, but I did a lot
of media work and I did a lot of interagency coordination.
And as I we mentioned before this call, one of
my jobs was to take all the meetings that the
chief didn't want to take, which was, you know, just
(37:30):
about all the meetings. And so I heard from a
lot of different communities about this topic. But but yeah,
I was there. I mean I was there on that team,
and I was a part of it.
Speaker 3 (37:40):
Okay, So I want to I want to dive into
a little bit more of what resulted of this rule
being put in place and finalized. But I think another
important thing to note is that you know this, the
Forest Service has a multiple use mandate and this did
not change that, and that this impacted fifty eight point
(38:02):
five million acres of national forest and then there was
another you know, x million acres of wilderness, of designated wilderness.
But then that's still left I think more than one
hundred million acres of or close to that of national
forest lands that were still managed fully multiple use, still
being utilized as a resource, still you know, supporting local
(38:25):
communities that did have some timber jobs, et cetera.
Speaker 2 (38:28):
Correct.
Speaker 3 (38:29):
So it wasn't like we were with this roadless rule
shutting down you know, utilizing the forest resources.
Speaker 4 (38:35):
Correct, No, that's exactly right, Mark, I mean look, and
to be clear, right, I mean you remiss not to
say this wilderness is a multiple use. You know, roadless
protection is a multiple use. Leaving these places intact for
future generations is a multiple use. But yeah, and even
after these areas were protected, we've the trout To Limited
(38:59):
Science team has been coming up with some groundbreaking work
that we haven't released yet, but I'll let you in
on some things I literally got just yesterday. So in
the state of Montana, for example, twenty six percent of
all the lands that have been treated for hazardous fuels
in the past twenty four years have been within inventoried
(39:21):
roads series. That number climbs to thirty one percent in
the state of Utah, where the proposal emanated to sell
or divest our public land legacy, and so these landscapes.
We didn't say you can't go in there and manage
for hazardous fuels. We didn't say you can't go in
there and build, you know, develop oil and gas resources.
(39:43):
We didn't say you can't go in there and you know,
and do hard rock mining if you've got a valid,
existing right to do that. We just said you can't
build a road. And you know, like I said earlier,
we're not in the sixties anymore. There's a lot more
ways to access landscapes today than there are building super
expensive roads that have a tendency to want to fall
off the landscape into rivers below. So there's been a
(40:06):
tremendous amount of forest health treatments in and outside of
roadless areas. Inside of roadless areas, I should say, over
the past nearly quarter century, where the agency needs to
be focused are where those forests are that adjoin human communities.
That's where most of the forest health treatments need to
(40:30):
take place. We have to protect people in human communities first,
and that is where I'm not suggesting that these treatments
that I mentioned In places like Utah and Montana, Idaho,
they've treated over a million acres of roadless lands for
forest health purposes in the past twenty five years. I'm
not suggesting that any of that work is bad. I'm
sure it's all good and legitimate work. But what is
(40:53):
erroneous is to suggest that because of the roadless rule,
forest health treatments, hazardous fuels reductions not occur in roadless areas.
That is a canard that's simply not true. It's belied
by the data. But perhaps the more significant public policy
issue that we should wrestle with as hunters and anglers
is where do we want the Forest Service doing these
(41:16):
hazardous fuels reduction projects? Do we want them going into
the back country areas or do we want them hanging
around the front country where the fires are going to
come down and creep off the national forest primarily from
roadedge systems where the vast majority of fire ignition start.
And you've got these overgrown forests that already have roads,
(41:36):
And why wouldn't you, why wouldn't you focus your treatments
on those areas adjacent to the so called wildland urban interviews.
Speaker 3 (41:43):
Yes, so I want to take a step back and
explain this a little bit more for people that maybe
aren't familiar.
Speaker 2 (41:48):
So when the roads.
Speaker 3 (41:50):
Rule went into place, it kept this fifty eight point
five million acre swath from having new additional roads. In
the years since, and really in the years before that,
we had wildfire suppression policies that led to, you know,
natural fires not happening the way they used to. The
management of our forests for many different reasons, maybe has
(42:11):
changed in certain ways. That has led to some places
being maybe heavily stocked with fuels, and now we have
everything with our changing climate that's leading to dryer you
know spells and fuel that is just ready and just
waiting for a spark to set off. All of that
has led to you know, wildfire issues. There's the whole
pine beetle outbreak over recent decades has led to a
(42:34):
whole lot of dead trees as well. So long story short,
Today many politicians like to say that we have undermanaged
forests that are bad for wildlife and that are bad
for catastrophic wildfire, and so that's bad for hunters and anglers,
and that's bad for the health of surrounding communities. And
(42:55):
I hear many people blaming that on the roadless rule,
blaming that on the environmental communities, you know, advocating for
protection of our national force.
Speaker 2 (43:05):
So so that's that's the pushback.
Speaker 3 (43:09):
It's saying, hey, because you guys have these worldless areas
or because you designated wilders, now we're not managing our forests.
That's why it's not supporting as many wildlife. That's why
we have horrible wildfires. We need to get in there
and do different things.
Speaker 2 (43:23):
So that's the critique.
Speaker 3 (43:24):
Can you take that critique and more and be a
little more specific with explaining your perspective on why that
is not true.
Speaker 2 (43:32):
Because he just did. But I'd love for you to
address it.
Speaker 4 (43:35):
Yeah, yeaheah, Yeah, I'm you know, I'm sitting here. My
parents are much on my mind because this is the
place where we always retreated as a family for the
past thirty years where I am now And as I
mentioned earlier, Mom just passed away and Dad passed away
a few years before. Dad was one of he was
voted one of one hundred best basketball players in Newark history,
(43:57):
and he played in like nineteen fifty five. I mean,
so the fact that they remembered him today, it's a
remarkable For a few years ago, and I remember telling
my dad and I played basketball, and I remember telling Dad,
you know, the reason I'm not a good basketball player
is that I stopped growing at six', One and he would, say, No,
chris the reason you're not as good as you could
(44:18):
have been because you didn't practice hardbough and you didn't
work enough on your off, hand and you had too
many other things that distracted you and kept you preoccupied
from becoming a great basketball. Player saying that the roadless
rule is keeping is contributing to those problems that you
described well a moment ago mark is like saying That
(44:41):
chris didn't become a good basketball player at six one
six y two because he didn't grow a couple more.
Inches it's just not. True the fact is that across
The Western United, states every single landscape are systems that
evolved with, fire and some, cases like on the west
side of The, cascades the fire was what we would
(45:04):
call catastrophic, today would come every one hundred or two hundred,
years and in lodge pole stands it would do this,
naturally it would come, in you'd have these big. Disturbances
you'd either have wind throw that would knock all the
seventy five year old lodge pole, over or you'd have
big fires that would move through and burn it all
to the. Ground we you, know starting you, know one
of the you, know legacy issues of the Early Forest
(45:25):
service was every fire should be put out by ten.
Am and so what we did is we we took these,
systems these ecological systems that evolved with, fire and we
said no more fire every by ten. Am Forest services
standing orders where we're going to put fire. Out AND
i mean it was a completely understandable. Reaction we had
(45:48):
horrible fires that killed multiple, firefighters burnt communities to the
ground in places Like idaho And, montana and they happened.
Today it's it's not just a relic of the. Past them,
afraid but it's in part because we've you, know there's
there's for those of us who study, rivers there's a
there's a saying you. Can't you can't ever divorce a
(46:09):
river from its. Floodplain you can, try you can dig,
it you can dike, it you can ditch, it you
can build burns up alongside, it but eventually that river
is going to find its floodplain and it's going to
take everything in the floodplain with it. Downstream and you
can't divorce these fire adapted systems from. Fire it just
(46:31):
can't be. Done and so the answer then, is, well
how do you in the places where we've built. Communities
we can't unbuild. THEM i don't think that's, Realistic but
we can take steps to make those communities themselves really.
Safe we can make sure that they don't have wood shingle,
(46:51):
roofs we can make sure that they don't have you,
know landscaping close flammable landscaping close to the. House we
can make sure that if they're adjacent To National force
forests ninety five percent of which will have been roaded,
already they'll be part of the general forest structure that
you mentioned. Earlier we can make sure that we have
done a lot of thinning and other treatments in those
(47:11):
landscapes so that if a fire does, start because a
fire will, start it's gonna, happen that we have a
better chance of knocking it. Down that we don't have
all these because the results of every fire out by
ten am was instead of having you, know twenty five
trees per acre in some, stands we'd have one hundred and.
(47:33):
Fifty there's just a lot more fuel than there used to.
Be and what happens is over time if you don't
go in and manage these. Stands So i'm agreeing on
the management. Part you, know you have stands that are
different levels of the, canopy and so the fire will create,
it it'll climb until you get it, exactly and you'll
get these so called stand replacement. Fires and so we
(47:55):
need to be able to get into these landscapes and
look at ecologically where should they have? Been can we
safely reintroduce fire and in those landscapes where we, can by,
god we need to do. That we can't pretend. TO i,
mean some of WHAT i hear today at The Forest,
service it's almost like we're just sort of trying to
forget about thirty forty years of fire. Science like the
(48:19):
agency knows that we've got to get more fire back
into these, systems but we have to do it in
a safe. Way and the way you do it in
a safe way is you make sure that the communities
themselves are protecting, themselves that the forests around the communities are,
protected and by, gosh if those are roadless areas adjacent
to those, communities and we need to make sure they
were going in, there and you, know reducing unnaturally large
(48:41):
fuel loads to thereby reduce unnaturally large. Fires and that
gets to a really important point THAT i want to.
Make i'm not suggesting that we haven't learned anything relative
to forest management or fire science over the past twenty four.
Years that we had all the thinking right twenty four years.
Ago AND i think if the administration had come in and, said,
(49:02):
look we want to look at this rule in the
context of what we've learned over the intervening couple decades
and make sure we're applying the best science to better
protecting these extremely important ecological values of roadless. Areas oh
and making sure that these communities are safe. TOO i,
mean troud and limited would be at the, leader we'd
(49:22):
be right in the front of that. Conversation but that's
not what they're. Saying they're, basically you, know coming up
with these sort of artificial nineteen forties era arguments that
we need to build roads into roadless areas to fight,
fires we need to build. Roads there's not a firefighter
In america who will tell you that you need to
build a road when there's a fire on the ground
(49:43):
to put out a. Fire that's just as a that's,
dissembling that's all that. Is But i'm not suggesting that
there might be some other techniques that we want to
specify that should be applied in treating some of these
landscapes that we did know about a, while you, know
twenty four years. Ago but unfortunately that hasn't been the
(50:05):
direction that the administration has taken. Initially and you, know
my hope is that with enough voices from enough hunters and,
anglers they'll change that perspective and they'll they'll they'll pivot
to something that looks at this from a more constructive
method of how do we better protect roadless areas and
better protect human?
Speaker 3 (50:23):
Communities now correct me If i'm, wrong and you would
know this much better THAN. I but weren't there some
exceptions built into the roleless rule that said that roads
(50:45):
could be built into these places if it was needed
to protect public health and safety and because of catastrophic.
Wildfire and weren't there exceptions that said that if management
more active management was needed to help threaten wildlife species
and you could do this with some cutting of small diameter,
trees roads could be built to accomplish those goals. Too
(51:06):
so weren't there some kind of roundabouts to address these.
Speaker 4 (51:10):
Concerns, yeah it's exactly, Right, Mark and one of the
things that we're, doing you, know, Sadly i'm not sure
we can expect The Forest service to do, it but
one of the things that we're doing is looking at
those like you, KNOW i mentioned to you that you
know the stats About utah And, Montana idaho And arkansas
where the chairman of The House Natural Resources committee. Lives
(51:31):
a third of all the roadless areas in the state
Of arkansas have been treated for hazardous fuel treatments under
these exceptions that you're talking. About so there was a
prohibition on timber cutting except for you, know the kind
of timber cutting that it leads to the forest health
treatments that we're talking, about the hazardous fuels reductions that
need to be, done and so we're trying to document
(51:52):
all of that and get it all in on. Place
well at the same time looking at the SO i,
mean just take like the state Of. Idaho if you
look at the fisheries values of roadless areas in the
state Of, idaho sixty eight percent of all bull trout
are dependent on roadless areas for their, survival fifty eight
percent of all west in the state Of, idaho of
all west slope cutthroat trout are dependent on roadless areas
(52:14):
for their survival seventy four. Percent nearly three quarters of
all the habitat for chinook and steelhead are found in
roadless areas in the state Of. IDAHO i, mean he's
and you, know and again going back To, idaho BECAUSE
i used to hunt out there in the Frank Church
River No Return. Wilderness the longest center fire rifle seasons
(52:36):
are in roadless areas in the state Of idaho because
that's where the most game. Is and so you, know
we're we're working really hard AT tu to make sure
that all that data is put into the public, conversation
because the agency is going to have to go through
what they call a rule making. Process they can't undo
(52:56):
the roadless rule with the stroke of a. Pen they
have to have what they call no notice and comment
where people get to view their. Opinions they have to
disclose the effects of what the federal government wants to
do in a public. Forum that's where they analyze the
effects of you, know their proposed. Actions AND i just
CAN'T i can't stress enough how important it. Will it's
(53:18):
so easy for, people and especially hunters and. Anglers you,
know we'd rather be in the woods around the. Water
the last thing we want to do is sit at
a computer and type up a note to some bureaucrat
somewhere who you, know we don't think is going to
pay attention to. It so it's so easy for us
to just Say i'm not going to. Bother but it
(53:38):
is so important that hunters and anglers make their voices
heard on this rule more than any. Other. Now three weeks,
AGO i would have said the same thing about the
whole effort to divest public, plans because that was truly
a boneheaded, proposal and we would have stood to gain
or lose the most and gain the. Least, today there's
(53:58):
no question in my mind that the road this rule
is the single most important regulation that benefits hunting and
fishing In. America and woe to us if we don't
make our voices, heard because we are not people who
live in. Cities GENERALLY i, do but you know we're,
not you, know urban dwellers who have this sort of
disassociated relationship with, Nature like these landscapes are visceral and
(54:23):
real to. Us WHEN i hunt in our land In West,
virginia OR i hunt on The monoghahila or the Frank church,
like you, Know i'm in the. Zone i'm in my happy.
Place and typically we're a more conservative lot than most
people who are who will participate in these. Processes and
the only way we're going to be able to convince
(54:44):
the administration to pivot to looking at this from the
context of what new information can we bring to bear
to better manage world this areas and better protect human.
COMMUNITIES i believe the only community that will be able
to help them ttration pivot are probably hunters and. Angles
and we've got to make our voices heard in a
(55:04):
way that they've never been heard. Before and you know, What,
Mark i'll tell you. THIS i told you this earlier
BECAUSE i know we're probably running. OUT i remember WHEN
i took all those meetings for The chief of The Forest.
SERVICE i met with all the regulated, industries the oil
and gas, guys the coal, guys the timber, folks all of.
Them AND i met with all the environmental. Community they
all came, In Sierra, club The Center's, wildlife all of
them came one side saying you're doing too, Much you're
(55:27):
trying to do too, much the other side saying you're
not doing, Enough you're not doing. ENOUGH i never had
a single meeting request from an organization that represented hunters and,
angles not, one not. One the constituency that stood to
gain the most was the most absent from this rule
making the first time. Around and we have directly hunting
(55:49):
and hunters and angles have directly benefited from the roadless
rule in the intervening two and a half, decades and
if we want to see that kept, intact we want
to see those the benefits of those protections. Continued it's
absolutely imperative we not sit this one. Out we have
got to make our voices.
Speaker 3 (56:06):
Heard and you, know one of the most tangible challenges
of our modern day world as a hunter and angler,
today and the thing THAT i think gets the most
people complaining and upset and riled up is how access
has changed and how busy it's, getting whether it be you,
know our public land hunting opportunities are a lousy now
(56:29):
because there's so many people, everywhere or if it's well
you can't float The madison of The Henry's fork without
a without a drift, boat hatch and dozens and dozens
and dozens of other people, right, well it is these roadless,
areas these last handful of places that we have where
we have the opportunity to have some degree of, solitude
where many of like the last best elk hunting, spots
(56:52):
last best mule deer hunting, spots the last best places
that we are that we are clamoring for and hoping
we can get to. Someday that's what's at stake, here
those blue lines that you mentioned, earlier where you can
get away from folks and still have that wild experience
that no longer can you really have on The madison
or down here by me on The Henry's fork or
(57:12):
The South. Fork even these places are, rightfully they're very. Popular,
yeah we have these last best hunting and fishing locations
that are very very tangible FOR i think those of
us who care about these things so and it's important
To and they're.
Speaker 2 (57:26):
Free they're, free and they're.
Speaker 4 (57:28):
Free there are is. There they're a birthright of being
An american, citizen AND i can you, KNOW i can't
guarantee it, obviously but the pressure you're going to find
in roadless areas if you're either deer or elk, hunting
it's not going to compare to what you're going to
find on The National Forest, system where most people pull
off on a road to build a campsite and fell
(57:49):
camp and they walk around the woods and they'll see
all their buddies and camel out with. Them, yeah you,
know you just it's a completely different experience. There you're
in these back country area and.
Speaker 3 (57:57):
An, again like people like to complain and, say, well
roads mean access and access is, important and we already
have nearly four hundred thousand miles of rows through our Forest,
service so there's plenty of places for places for folks
who want that easy. Access we have just a handful
of these places left that you can actually have to
really hike. In so those, places like the last ones we,
have let's let's protect that one of the multiple. Uses
(58:19):
and then again to what we've talked about over and over.
Again you, know everyone wants to go back to what
we need to. Better we need to more actively manage our.
Forests and as we've, discussed there's tens and tens and
tens and tens of millions of acres where we can
have every type of active management you.
Speaker 2 (58:33):
Want and, yes we need to continue to.
Speaker 3 (58:35):
Find more ways to make sure the litigation doesn't hold
up the appropriate wildlife benefiting.
Speaker 2 (58:41):
Management we need to make sure that we're.
Speaker 3 (58:43):
Appropriate we do allow for sustainable extraction of timber and
the right places to be. Done, absolutely as you were,
describing there's a real need for management to deal with
these wildfire. Issues there's exceptions in the roadless rule to
allow certain things to be done, still so these things
are not mutually. Exclusive we can have active management and
(59:06):
fire management and.
Speaker 2 (59:07):
Still protect these last roadless places.
Speaker 3 (59:09):
TOO i think that's something that a lot of the
politicians today want to pretend that you have to choose
one or the.
Speaker 4 (59:14):
Other and that's just as they make it a zero some,
game and it's. NOT i, mean the fact is that
the opponents of the roadless rule have a philosophical argument
that they're, making and that philosophical argument is that any
constraint on our ability to do anything we want on
(59:36):
the landscape is. Problematic what we those of us who
are advocates for keeping those places, intact what we have
on our side are substantive arguments because of everything you just, Said,
Mark because there are exceptions to this rule that allow for,
management because there are so many higher priority areas that
need to have active management done to protect more people
(59:59):
than these remote by definition, landscapes and and AND i
think the important thing is that you, know we still
live in a. Democracy. Right we're Not, england, Right these
aren't this Isn't, robinhood these aren't this isn't The king's, forests,
Right this is these are our. Forests they're our, forests
and The Forest service work for, us and and so
(01:00:23):
and by, extensions so does the. Administration and SO i
just THINK i still very much believe in in the
power of, democracy AND i believe in the power of
individual voices to make a difference in the way our,
lands our lands and waters are. Managed AND i just
think it's incumbent on all of us to make sure
that we make sure that we our voices are. Heard
(01:00:46):
you can do it through organizations Like Trout, unlimited Or
Backcountry hunters And anglers Or Theodore Roosevelt Conservation, Partnership National
Wildlie federation as a whole host of. Us now it's
not like back you, know twenty four years, ago where
nobody wanted to go talk about roadless areas to the
chief of The Forest. Service it's Different. Now there's a
lot of us out there who represent hunters and, anglers
(01:01:07):
AND i just encourage everyone who listens to this, show
whether you support those organizations or, not figure out how
to get your voice. Heard because our elected leaders and
the people that we put in place to manage our
lands for, us they will listen to.
Speaker 3 (01:01:23):
Us so the THING i want to wrap up with
is revisiting something you described briefly a moment, ago and
then you started to allude to something right. There But
i'd like to better understand in detail what does the
process look like now moving forward in the coming months
as the administration tries to proceed with this, rollback this
(01:01:45):
recision of the roleless. Rule so what are the actual
steps that are going to a curve that the administration
needs to? Do and then where are the most impactful
moments for us as individuals and, Organizations like when do
our voices really make out of the most and how
are we as effective as possible of communicating. That so so,
(01:02:06):
basically this is a long wind of way of, saying
how do we most efficiently and effectively make a difference
on this?
Speaker 4 (01:02:13):
One so there's two. Answers, more there's the public, process,
right AND i am still a dwed who believes in
the public. Process and it's not just BECAUSE i actually
split my glasses yesterday playing catch with my, son but
don't use your face to catch good. Tip, Yeah so
(01:02:38):
there's the public. Process and so there, there If i'm
guessing AND i don't know this for a, fact they
have to come out with a public they'll basically come
out with a public comment. Period so they'll they'll they'll, say,
hey here's our. Idea you, know we want to rescind
the roadless. Rule here's what it. Means and there'll be
a public comment period on that, idea and that'll be
(01:02:59):
one opportunity for us to. Engage and then they'll they'll
take that back and they'll go into the basement and
they'll build their bomb and they'll, Say, okay here's our draft.
Idea what do you think of our? Idea and that'll
be another opportunity to. COMMENT i think the ability to,
overwhelm overwhelm these agencies with comments from constituents like hunters
(01:03:19):
and anglers is really really important in this public process.
Period and then they'll come out with a final and
there may or may not be comments on. That and
then what's happened in the intervening twenty four years that
a lot of people are forgetting about is all these
national forests have amended their forest plans and so if
there's a rule, change like there's overriding roadless rule gets taken,
(01:03:39):
away these individual forests will still have to amend their
plans to allow for entry into these back country areas
because they don't allow, it and these forest supervisors aren't.
Fools there's going to be VERY i think there'll be
some who are politically motivated to do it to curry,
favor but most are going to, say, MAN i don't
want to get involved in that hot. Mess but that's
(01:04:00):
the public. Process and then there's the process that affects
the public, process and that's the one THAT i think
is frankly more. Important and so there's been a lot
of reports about how people like you, know my Friends
Senator rish And Senator crapo From, idaho they came out
opposed to this public land sale, provision and The montana
(01:04:22):
Delegation shi And, dames again good, people good, friends said
that they were, opposed and that was. Great what wasn't
was that they were so that if you Recall senator
she he was proposing to introduce an amendment that would
strip out the provision that would allow for this not
allowed mandate the sale of two to three point three
(01:04:45):
million acres of for service AND blm. Land that was
adjusted later on and. Change but we had sixteen Other
republican senators lined up to oppose to support The shihi,
amendment sixteen. OTHERS i meant we had twenty. Total think about,
(01:05:09):
that there's you, know there's almost fifty to fifty in The,
senate and there's only one reason for. That it is
because hunters and anglers From, indiana From, ohio From New,
mexico From, arizona From New, York New, jersey all. Over
they basically inundated the offices of their members Of congress and,
(01:05:30):
said this is a stupid. Idea we will not support.
This we won't support you if you support. It in,
fact we want you to tell us you won't Support
and that's what. Happened that's why they withdrew. It it would
have been a devastatingly embarrassing vote for the proponent of that.
Idea if they had actually let it go to the,
floor it would lost overwhelm. Me and it was because
(01:05:54):
the right hunters and anglers called the right senators and
put the right bug in their. Ear and that's the.
Process that's outside the, process and that's where mcmeeat eater
can be so helpful by getting you, know hunters and
anglers who may not be you, know fast talking white
guys like me whose job it is to do this
stuff on a daily, basis but they may maybe they've
(01:06:17):
guided you, know a senator or a cabinet, member or you,
know a member of the president's, family and and you,
know the more we can enlist those people as. Advocates
so that's again it's outside the regular process THAT i,
described but often that outside the regular process process is
(01:06:37):
far more. Important but both are important. Here we need
to have the ground swell of support so we can
go to the people who don't typically engage in the
process and, say, dude you're on good ground.
Speaker 3 (01:06:50):
Here.
Speaker 4 (01:06:50):
Man ninety five percent of hunters and anglers want to
keep these places. Intact you're, okay this isn't some democratic camel's,
no who was under the, Tent this isn't some liberal.
Agenda this is about the most conservative thing we can.
Do we can keep or hold these backcountry areas in
a safe.
Speaker 3 (01:07:09):
State and SO i want to make SURE i understand
how so if we were to be contacting our elected,
officials even though this is not something that's being determined by,
legislatives yeah means, right.
Speaker 4 (01:07:23):
The White house will listen to. That so The White
house will listen to. Them so it's you, know contact
your members Of, congress be They democrats Or, republicans you,
know contract contact the administration through the regular formal. Process
but then many of us know people who either work
in the, administration they're either cabinet, members or they're associated
with cabinet, members or they're associated with the. Family and
(01:07:46):
the more we can engage, THOUGH i, mean, LOOK i you,
know try to unlimit. It as a huge advocate for
Protecting Bristol, bay And President trump played a ginormous role
in that back in twenty twenty by denying the key
permit to the proponent of that.
Speaker 2 (01:08:04):
Mind and it was a huge.
Speaker 4 (01:08:06):
Win and, thanks thank You President trump for making this.
POSSIBLE i don't know that that, happens but for the
fact that his sons had fished up In Bristol bay
and had publicly said they thought it should be. Protected
and so that's WHAT i mean by we had done
a great, job to you of getting hundreds of thousands
that fishing and hunting community MEET eat or everybody came
(01:08:27):
together on that ONE sims or, everybody all the outdoor,
brands everybody was. Great it wasn't as valuable as one tweet.
Speaker 2 (01:08:35):
From Donald trump J Donald Trump.
Speaker 3 (01:08:36):
Junior, yeah thank, Goodness so thank goodness for The Queenjack, river,
right that's, right The.
Speaker 4 (01:08:41):
Queenjack, yeah my favorite. River IF i were to die
tomorrow and The lord said you can fish on one more,
river it would be a fish the braids on the.
Speaker 2 (01:08:48):
Beach to fish the Last.
Speaker 4 (01:08:50):
Fall isn't that place? Special it really? Is CAN i
tell you a quick fish?
Speaker 2 (01:08:55):
STORE i love to love to hear.
Speaker 4 (01:08:57):
It, so SO i was on The Queen. JACK i
had to leave a. Day so you, know as you
know where you at Of Alaska Sportsans.
Speaker 3 (01:09:03):
Lot, NO i was with With Nancy Lyons nancy and
not With. BRIAN i was up by the lakesh.
Speaker 4 (01:09:17):
But Hodgins, place No Crystal.
Speaker 3 (01:09:19):
Creek this is so embarrassing and they're gonna be so
mad at me That i'm forgetting.
Speaker 4 (01:09:22):
This, well let's just cut this part.
Speaker 2 (01:09:24):
Out, SORRY i met With. Brian edit.
Speaker 4 (01:09:28):
It but but you KNOW I i was in front
of The alaska Sportsmans, lot which is on The Queen,
jack AND i KNEW i had to. LEAVE i had
to actually go To New York city of all, places
to meet with THE ceo Of tiffany And company to
get him to help come out against the public, mind
which he did, Anyway So i'm standing there and we were.
Drifting it's really cool for your. Listeners you. Know the
(01:09:50):
what happens is there's there's this lake Called, iliamna and
these resident native rainbows live in the lake and they
they migrate into the. Rivers they followed the salmon and
they eat their eggs and they eat the flesh of
the decaying sand because there's so much. Protein and so we.
Swing you can swing, eggs but then you can you
can also swing with a so called flesh. Floes they're big,
(01:10:12):
streamers and so you you, know you cast it and
then you let it swing, downstream and you, know sometimes
you'll give it a little. Action and, ANYWAY i was doing,
that and he got all the way to the end
of the, run AND i was just talking to you,
know just kind of you, know jabber jocking with the
with the, guide AND i gave it a little strip
AND i was getting ready to strip more and to
(01:10:33):
pick it up and cast, again AND i felt a
jerk AND i set, strip, set And i'm looking one
hundred and eighty degrees downstream and over THERE i see
a fish come out of the. Water AND i looked
at the guide AND i, said did you see that
fish jump over, there and he looks at me and he, said, yeah,
man that's your. Fish so this fish was all the
(01:10:55):
way down there at the end of my line and
it came out of the water all the way over.
THERE i. Know that's how incredibly strong these fish are
because they're eating those eggs in that, flesh and it
was it was only a twenty five inch rainbow and
they get up over thirty inches there and to this,
day that remains the most memorable Fish i've Ever.
Speaker 2 (01:11:16):
Yeah they.
Speaker 3 (01:11:16):
Are they are unlike any rainbow Trout i've ever seen or,
experience just like superhuman. Trout, yeah AND i remembered it's
last Cast. Lodge they're a little bit a smaller outfit up,
there as With Dagan. Walton really good, people great folks
to help out with the with A Guide academy down
there and get a lot of.
Speaker 4 (01:11:35):
Fun the Guide academy is. Awesome, yeah they, get they.
Get they. Do help. Out nancy helps, Out bryan helps,
out our Trit unlimited staff help. Out we basically Get
Alaska native villagers from The Bristol bay. Area we train
them to become guides so they can work at these.
Speaker 2 (01:11:48):
Lodges such a great, program such a special.
Speaker 3 (01:11:50):
Place, yeah very thankful that we got the right people
out there to experience it and and advocate for it
to your.
Speaker 2 (01:11:57):
Point so so, YEAH i think that's that's a terrific.
Speaker 3 (01:12:01):
Call to action for all of us to do whatever
it is that we, can whether that's calling our elected,
officials or speaking to our friends and, family or bringing
someone else out to experience these places and, say, hey
this is one of those roadless AREAS.
Speaker 2 (01:12:15):
I can speak. TO i killed my first help on
one of these roadless.
Speaker 3 (01:12:18):
Areas my kids have gone and done incredible backpacking trips
and hiking trips and had formative experiences in these roadless
areas that would be dramatically different if they changed because of.
Speaker 2 (01:12:31):
This so we have a, say we have a.
Speaker 3 (01:12:34):
Voice we just saw with the public land sale how
impactful our voices can be if we stand up together.
Speaker 2 (01:12:41):
And really demand. Something so let's do it. Again let's
do it.
Speaker 4 (01:12:46):
Again let's do it.
Speaker 3 (01:12:47):
Again, Well, chris to wrap it, up could you just
tell folks where they can learn more about what you
guys are doing as an, Organization how can they get
involved The Trout unlimited anything else like?
Speaker 4 (01:12:57):
That, YEAH i mean you know tu dot org a.
Www dot tu dot org will have a wealth of
information up. There soon we'll have a whole section on roadless,
areas because we want to get all this information out
about by state where these roadless lands are and how
important they are for trout and, salmon and how much,
(01:13:19):
activity how much treatment work has been allowed in those.
Areas just you, know we want to be able to
counter some of these arguments that we're hearing with. Facts,
AGAIN i think there's a philosophical argument for getting away
from the roadless, rule BUT i think the substantive arguments
are on our. Side and so we want to make
sure that people who fish and, hunt to you, supporters
(01:13:42):
to you, members they have access to good information to
make their voices. Heard will be making sure that everybody
knows when you, know check out our social media to
understand when you can the best way to chime. In
we've got you, know online, resources so you don't have
to write an original. Letter you can just go in
there and put your name in your address and we'll
(01:14:04):
take care of the hard part for. You but, again
just don't underestimate the power your.
Speaker 2 (01:14:08):
Voice, yeah, yeah so.
Speaker 3 (01:14:09):
True, Well, CHRIS i can't thank you enough for this chat,
today for all of your work you, know decades ago
to help put this into, place and now what you're
doing with tu tremendous, organization tremendous impact you have made
personally and. Organizationally so thank you for all, that and
thank you for.
Speaker 4 (01:14:26):
Today Thanks, mark it's been a.
Speaker 3 (01:14:29):
Pleasure and with that we will wrap this one. UP
i appreciate you joining, ME i appreciate you listening to
me And chris. TODAY i hope that you will leave
this conversation not only with the better understanding of how
we have these special protected, places but also what it's
going to take for us to keep them.
Speaker 2 (01:14:47):
AROUND i also will ask you to please.
Speaker 3 (01:14:50):
Join me in sending emails calling our elected officials taking
action to protect these last best. Places they, truly we
are one of the most rare resources we have, left
and if we don't stand up for, them certainly nobody else.
Will so thanks for joining, me thanks for being a
part of this conversation in this, community and thank you
(01:15:12):
for Staying wired To hunt
Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, your guide to
the white tail Woods, presented by first Light, creating proven
versatile hunting apparel for the stand, saddle or blind. First
Light Go Farther, Stay Longer, and now your host, Mark Kenyon,
Welcome to the.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Wired to Hunt Podcast.
Speaker 3 (00:22):
Today we are going to be discussing how we came
to have fifty eight point five million acres of protected
roadless areas here in the United States of America, and
how those same roadless areas, those best places to hunt
and fish and get away from the crowds, might very
well be threatened in a new and profound way. And
(00:43):
joining us for this discussion is Chris Wood, a hunter,
an angler, and the president and CEO of Trout Unlimited.
All right, welcome back to the Wired to Hunt podcast,
brought to you First Light and their Camo for Conservation Initiative.
(01:04):
And today we are talking roadless areas, those spots on
the map that are left just a little bit more
blank than the rest, Those places where you can get
away from the crowds, those spots that we're all looking
for to try to find that last best honey hole
for white tails, or maybe deep in that high mountain
(01:25):
basin where you can find those bugling bowls, or maybe
where you want to follow those little blue lines to
find those high alpine cutthroat streams.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
These last best places that are.
Speaker 3 (01:36):
Protected from roads and everything that comes with them. If
you remember earlier the spring, we had a really interesting
chat with Ben Goldfarb. He's the author of a book
called Crossings. It was all about the impact of roads
on wildlife and wild places, and to sum that book
up very very succinctly, roads have a huge impact. Now.
(01:58):
Of course, we need some roads to get access to
these places, and we have many, many, many of them.
In the case of the topic we'll be discussing today,
we're talking about US Forest Service lands, where there are
nearly four hundred thousand miles of roads already. But there
are these last places that have been protected for those
of us who want to get back in there and
(02:18):
have a wilder experience. Those same places are now threatened
in a really profound way. There's a rule that most
folks don't know about. It was called the roadless area rule,
and this protected, as I mentioned at the top, more
than fifty eight million acres of roadless areas left in
our forest system. Those have been, like I said, really
(02:40):
really special places for many of us, kind of unbeknownst
to us they're protected in this special way. Well, recently
the government has proposed removing that rule and opening up
this fifty eight million acres of backcountry wild wide open
places to new roads and development. So what's that going
to mean for hunting, What's that going to mean for fishing?
What's that going to mean for the elk and deer
(03:02):
and bears and fish and critics of all types that
live there. That's the question or those are the questions
that we are going to be answering today. And my
guest is somebody who has a really deep understanding of
this issue and of this protection, this roadless Area rule,
because he actually helped write it.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
Our guest today is Chris Wood.
Speaker 3 (03:23):
He is currently the president and CEO of Trout Unlimited,
but in his former life he did work for the
US Forest Service, and he helped the Chief of the
Forest Service back at this period late nineties early two
thousands to develop this rule, develop these protections, and to
really come to this decision that this is the best
long term decision to protect these last places for future
(03:47):
generations or wildlife, for hunting and angling, and so so
many other reasons. So today Chris is going to help
us understand the history, how these places came to be,
how these places were protected, why the roadless rule is
so important, what has done, what it has done for
hunting and fishing and wildlife and so many other things.
And we're also going to discuss some of the controversy
(04:10):
around it. What have been the arguments that people who've
been against this protection, what are those arguments been, And
then a whole bunch of explanation of why this has
been such a smart protection to put in place, Why
these places are worth protecting and conserving and keeping around
not just for us now, but for our kids and
grandkids and all those that come after us. Finally, we
(04:34):
are going to discuss what happens if the proposed rollback
of this rule actually happens.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
What happens if these.
Speaker 3 (04:41):
Fifty eight point five million acres of our last roless
areas end up getting re roaded or newly roaded. What
ends up if they end up developed in new ways
than they have been in the past. What's that future
look like. Is there any reason or a way for
us to stop that? Do we have any influence at
that point. These are the questions and the topics we
discussed today with Chris Wood. He is a tremendous spokesperson.
(05:04):
He has a lot to share, a lot of experience.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
Whether you are.
Speaker 3 (05:08):
A white tail hunter, or an elk hunter, or a
black bear hunter, or a trout angler, or somebody who
just likes to every once in a while get away
from the crowds.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
This is a conversation that is.
Speaker 3 (05:20):
Going to be really important for you to hear, to understand,
and I hope to take action on. So, without any
further beating around the bush, let's get to my chat
today with Chris Wood about the history and the future
of America's last roadless areas.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
All right with me now, is Chris Wood? Welcome to
the show.
Speaker 4 (05:47):
Chris, Thanks Mark, it's great to be here.
Speaker 3 (05:50):
I'm very excited to have this chat today for multiple reasons.
One of the reasons, and this is like the ancillary one.
The main reason is because of the time topic. But
the secondary reason I'm so excited is that parallel to
my love of hunting and whitetails especially, I have an
equal love for fly fishing that over the last fifteen
(06:13):
years has been growing and growing and growing and maybe
almost superseding my hunting obsession. But I rarely get to
have someone on the show who is as obsessed as
I am, or more obsessed than I am, on those
sets of topics. So it's great to share a podcast
today with a fellow trout nut in fly fishing a fishionado.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
So thank you for bringing that to the show today.
Speaker 4 (06:36):
Yeah, man, of course, Mark, I'm also a big time
whitetail hunter, and I like that you said a fly
fishing a ficionado, because even though I get I have
the privilege of working for Trout Unlimited, I love catching
anything that swims on my fly.
Speaker 3 (06:55):
Yeah. Yeah, I understand you do a lot there on
the Potomac and some of your local rivers on the
East side there.
Speaker 4 (07:00):
Yes, yeah, yeah. I've been known to ride my bike
to work with a broken down fly rod held on
my handlebars and I'll hop off and I'll fish some
of our little urban creeks at different times of the year.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
That's amazing.
Speaker 3 (07:13):
I love you know. This is this idea of like
micro adventures. So many people think that you need to
travel out west or go to some big, far flung
destination to have a wild experience and to connect with.
Speaker 2 (07:25):
The natural world.
Speaker 3 (07:26):
But but I think what you're talking about right there
is is a really great example of finding that wildness
wherever you are, right yeah.
Speaker 4 (07:33):
Man, you know, we actually did. We have a wonderful magazine.
For those of you who aren't members, you should become
a member just to get the magazine. But we did
this issue called Blue Lines. And you know, Blue Lines
for me was a famous book that I had heard
about when I was a kid, by an author named
William least heat Moon. And what he did was he
traveled the small ancillary highways across America, staying off the interstates,
(07:57):
and I think it was called Blue Lines actually. But
but you know, what we meant in the magazine of
Black Blue Lions was getting off the Madison, getting off
the gallot and getting up into the headwaters of these systems,
getting up into some of these roadless areas that have these,
you know, really high populations of genetically pure native trout
and salmon. But in an urban environment, we have blue
(08:20):
lions too. You know. We've got this wonderful river, the Potomac,
which is very underfished in its own right, but we
have these tributaries that feed into it. And I can't
tell you how many times, in a city of you know,
seven hundred thousand people, I have found myself the only
person on an urban fishery catching fish handover fist. I
(08:42):
love it well.
Speaker 2 (08:43):
I don't know a lot about the Potomac.
Speaker 3 (08:44):
I've never fished there, but I just finished reading a
book called The Silent Spring Revolution by Douglas Brinkley. I
don't know if you're familiar with that one.
Speaker 4 (08:52):
I know Douglas Brinkley, but I haven't read that book.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
Yeah, it's a terrific book.
Speaker 3 (08:55):
It's all about the environmental history of the long sixties,
so the sixties, the early seventies, and there was a
whole lot in there about William Douglas, the Supreme Court justice,
who was a tremendous conservationist. I don't think a lot
of people today remember that, but he fought so hard
to protect that. I guess there's a canal that runs
somewhere around there as well, the O and O Canal,
(09:17):
Is that right?
Speaker 2 (09:19):
You can that's it?
Speaker 3 (09:20):
And there's a hiking trail through there that he, you know,
ended up helping secure as a national park now and
and all sorts of stuff. So I learned a lot
about that region that was really interesting. And and turns
out there's some really special places that are left in
a somewhat wild, undeveloped place because of you know, advocacy
for those close to home places.
Speaker 4 (09:40):
That's no, that's exactly right. I mean, it's I could
go on and on here, and you're you're catching me.
As we talked about before the call. My mom just
passed away on Monday. But mom and dad met in Washington,
d c. And Dad went to school at Georgetown, which
is on the banks of the Potomac, and then he
went to law school there. And here me talking about
(10:00):
going down there. We have a wonderful shad run that
happens in the spring of the year and shattered down
across the entire northeast, but in the Potomac there on
the way back up. And my father would say, you
go to the Potomac, And he said, man, when I
was in school there in the sixties, to your point,
we wouldn't go near there for fear of getting sick.
He used to fear that they would get sick on
the river. And today that C and O Canal that
(10:23):
you're talking about although the Park Service is taking a
long time to fix some parts of the canal and
so it's been drained, but it's a wonderful carp fishery
fly for flyer writters. You can bike along that path
that you mentioned that people hike and you look for
tailing carp and it's just it's the coolest experience to
(10:44):
be in a city, in that city, right in the
in the birthplace of the clean water, for gosh sake,
and you know, almost in the span of my lifetime
to see that river turn around from one that was
a scary place that people wouldn't go for fear of
getting sick, to one that today when I take my
kids out there to fish, when the shad move up
(11:04):
the river because the stripers are following them, and the
ale wives are in the river, and all the you know,
the birds of prey, the osprey, the bald eagles. Last
year we saw two bald eagles juveniles chasing away a
golden eagle. We've got comorant. I mean, it's just the
diversity of life in the river is incredible, and it's
(11:25):
because of people like William Douglas and others in the
sixties and the seventies who basically said this is a
national disgrace. There is absolutely no reason that the nation's
river shouldn't be clean and healthy, and it is so
much more so today than it was back then thanks
to those giants.
Speaker 3 (11:45):
Yeah, well, it's a perfect segue into our topic today
because we can look back there in the sixties and
seventies and see where many places had gone downhill tremendously
and had to be restored. But at the same time,
there was also the beginning. I mean, it's been going
on for decades and decades before that, but there were
significant updates to protections for those last places that were
(12:10):
in a healthy state. And that leads us to what
we're going to talk about today, which is another such
set of protections that have kept some of our last
wild roadless healthy watersheds and forests and landscapes in that state. So,
without further ado, I guess we should just get right
into it, Chris, And what I'd love to start with
(12:31):
is a elevator pitch. If you were on the elevator
with a hunter or angler who was not familiar with
the roadless rule, but they've been hearing it kind of
buzzed around the last month or so, as more and
more people are talking about it, I'd love to hear
your elevator pitch on what the Roadless Rule is, why
it's relevant to hunters and anglers, and what they should
(12:53):
know about it to start this conversation.
Speaker 2 (12:55):
So that's that's step one. Yeah, we'll leave it that.
I'll I'll let you start with that and then we'll
move for.
Speaker 4 (13:00):
Yeah, that's that's great, Thank you for that question. The
Roadless Rule protects fifty eight and a half million acres
of some of the finest hunting and fishing habitat on
the planet. And that's why you should care if you
hunt and you fish, especially if you hunt and fish
on public lands, even private because a lot of times
the game is making you know, it's winter habitat is
(13:23):
you know, is up on public lands and then it
moves down onto the private lands depending on the species.
But if you fish or hunt, especially if you fish
or hunt on public lands and waters, you need to
make your voice heard to keep these landscapes protected because
they are they're the goose that lays the golden egg
(13:44):
for all of us.
Speaker 2 (13:45):
Yeah, okay, that's a very good succinct. Setting the stage
for us.
Speaker 3 (13:50):
Now, I want to rewind the tape and I want
to get in deep and start with how it all began.
And you are the perfect person to help us with us, because,
as I understand it, you are quite intricately involved in
developing this set of protections, the Rowless Rule. So how
did you get involved with the Royless Rule? What did
that look like for you personally?
Speaker 4 (14:10):
Such a good question. Mark, Yeah, when we when I
started working on this rule, I had a full head
of brown hair. But you can't tell it's not brown anymore,
and it ain't full either. So I'll get to the
personal point in a minute, but I think the institutional
point is almost just as important. So from from nineteen
(14:31):
sixty to nineteen eighty nine, the United States Forest Service,
which was held up in the sixties, going back to
that era of the sixties by some of the famous
historians of the ear people like Harold Stein, they used
to hold the Forest Service up as this, you know,
sort of this iconic agency, this fable to spree decors
(14:54):
and people who all had the same sense of mission.
And so basically what happened after before World War Two,
the agency was very much created by some of our
you know our legendary conservation fore bears like Theodore Roosevelt
and Gifford Pinchot to basically be an antidote to the
(15:14):
rapacious private timber industry which had been liquidating forests. Basically,
they started in New England. They marched down to the southeast,
they march up to the Great Lakes, and then they
moved their way across west the west. And it was
before we had forest management practices acts, before there was
a Clean Water Act, I mean, and people didn't know
they were They were just making a living and they
(15:36):
were creating homes for all of us. I mean, so
some of us live in those homes to this day
that were created from some of that land. I've got
a nineteen o six row house in Washington, d c.
With hart pine flooring. It's yellow pine without a blemish
in it. You wouldn't know it as pine today. But
these were big old yellow pines that they cut in
(15:57):
the southeast and made into flooring because they're so the
hard wood is even though it's a soft wood technically
though it's a very hard wood. It's perfect for flooring anyway.
But and what happened from the sixth basically after World
War Two, when everyone, all the servicemen returned home, the
Forest Service turned toward helping to meet the wood fiber
needs of the nation. And so as a result, between
(16:21):
nineteen sixty and nineteen eighty nine, and this is just
as a unit of measurement, it's less important to know
what it means, the agency allowed for the production of
about nine to twelve billion board feet of timber a year.
And just as a frame of reference, it costs it
takes about thirty thousand board feet to create a single
(16:41):
family home. And it was consistent nine to twelve billion
board feet.
Speaker 1 (16:47):
It was.
Speaker 4 (16:47):
It varied in different parts of the country, but there
was an especial emphasis in the seventies and the eighties
in the Pacific Northwest. And that all came crashing down
nineteen in the late eighties. And so what had happened
as the agency had created a series of rules that
said they had to create these minimum they had to
protect minimum viable populations of species. And we had passed
(17:11):
laws like the Endangered Species Act, which are designed to
keep species from winking out, from going extinct. And so
there was a little furtive owl, a native owl called
the northern spotted owl which habituated these old growth forests
in Washington, Oregon, different parts of the Pacific Northwest, and
(17:32):
that's where the bread basket of the timber industry was.
That's where they were really cutting. In a couple of
those separate forests, they were taken out over a billion
board feet of timber from one forest a year, and
so that all stopped. There was a judge in the
Pacific Northwest who ruled that the agency had been demonstrating
a quote reckless disregard for the law in how it
(17:54):
was managing these forests, because it had gone from taking
this very sort of custodial approach which to protecting public
lands into this we've got to get the cutout to
meet the growing, you know, timber needs of the nation. Again,
completely well intentioned, no malice here, no ill will. And
at the same time that those spotted owls were declining,
(18:15):
we saw these precipitous declines in salmon and steelhead populations.
Back in the nineties. There were early nineties there was
a seminole paper that came out that documented one hundred
and six stocks of salmon from the Pacific Northwest that
had already become extinct and two hundred and fifteen that
were then at risk of extinction. And so that was
(18:37):
nineteen eighty nine that that injunction on timber harvest came down.
And from nineteen eighty nine until the time that Mike
Dombeck became chief eight years later, they had been cutting
about two to three and a half billion board feet
of timber, so down from twelve to two or three billion.
And the whole edifice of the Forest Service, this forty
(18:59):
thousand strong organization that oversees one hundred and ninety three
million acres of public land, it was built on the
back of this timbersale program. The biologists that so many
of us respected and knew as young professionals, they came up.
They were being paid for by proceeds from timber sale receipts.
(19:20):
All the roads that we used to access National Forest
to hunt and fish, those were built to facilitate timbersale.
And so the agency had been in this eight year
period of transition when Mike Dombeck became chief in ninety seven,
and it had completely lost its way. The agenda was
being driven by the environmental community who was litigating the
(19:43):
Forest Service into obsolescence. There were many in Congress who
were unhappy that the Forest Service wasn't getting cut out.
They weren't cutting the nine to twelve billion board feet
of timber anymore. There was an equal number on the
other side, who you know, we're looking at things like
the fact that the agency had oversight of a three
(20:05):
hundred and eighty six hundred thousand mile road systems wrap
your head around in a minute, and we were over
and there was about an eight and a half billion
dollar with a b backlog on maintenance of that existing
road system. And so I think what what Mike and
others of us who were in the agency at that
(20:26):
time decided, was, you know, why should the Forest Service
let other people dictate this storied conservation organization where people
like Arthur Carrhart worked and Bob Marshall and Aldo Leopold,
I mean, the fathers in this case of Rachel Carson
was of course efficient Wildlife Service employee. I wish we
could have claimed her, but you know, really the fathers
(20:49):
of the modern conservation movement, of the North American wildlife
model came out of the Forest Service, and yet the
agency had this historically very uneasy relationship with wilderness. And
even though Arthur Carhart and Bob Marshall and Aldo Leopold
in particular, are really the the whole wilderness concept originated
(21:12):
from that. The agency had this uneasy relationship with it
because when you designate wilderness and these are you know,
for the Act, these are lands where quote man is
a visitor who you know does not remain so and
you can't use any mechanical leverage when you're in wilderness.
You have to use your feet that God gave you.
And you know, that was almost anathema to how the
(21:35):
agency had begun to evolve through the sixties and the
seventies in the eighties, where it was this highly mechanistic,
highly you know, engineered organization where it's like, we're going
to go build these roads into these steep slope areas.
We're going to cut those trees we haven't been able
to access because we have better technology today, and then,
by God, we're going to take that wood and get
it to market. And then what would happen is as
(21:57):
the easier wood got taken off the National Forest System,
the slopes that you had to climb to get to
the timber that was left were steeper, and they were
on more granitek or erosed soils, and the timber that
was left it wasn't as valuable. So now the agency
was pumping these roads into these low value areas where
they weren't getting the timber values they had historically gotten.
(22:19):
So they were losing money on these sales. They were
building these roads that were falling off the landscape into
these trout and salmon streams that were below them, and
they had this eight and a half billion dollar maintenance
backlog on the existing road system. And it was from
that background and agency's morale was in the tank. It
was absolutely so. I mentioned Harold Steen in that nineteen
(22:41):
sixty one work where he talked about the fabled spreed
core of the Forest Service. In their early nineties, they
came out with another survey of all the government agencies
in the federal government, and the number two agency with
the lowest morale was the US Forest And from that background,
(23:02):
that's when you know, we said, well, wait a minute,
most Americans value their public lands not for energy development,
not for oil or gas or coal. Those are important.
They don't value them for wood, fiber or for forage.
Those are also important, But most of us we value
those places for the sense of naturalness they provide, and
(23:23):
the wildness and clean water, and the fish and wildlife habitat,
and the fact that they are what remains. They're the
you know, I have said this before in a different context,
but the public lands are They're the anvil upon which
the character of the nation was hammered out as we
migrated our way west. And unlike every other country in
(23:44):
the world, we had the wisdom to keep them intact,
to save them, because we realized that just as you know,
you you know, the Egyptians take pride in their in
their pyramids, and in Italy prides itself on its ancient cathedrals.
France it's museums. We have our public lands, and those
(24:04):
are as much as what it means to be American
as anything else in the United States. And so anyway,
that was the backdrop, and I think Mike, who was
leading this organization, was saying, I don't want the courts
to be driving our conservation agenda. And God bless the
environmental community, because if they hadn't raised the alarm, we
(24:25):
probably would have taken all the old growth. But I
don't want them driving our agenda either, And you know,
I really don't want members of Congress who definitely have
to appropriate the dollars we need. But you know, there's
very few foresters in Congress. They shouldn't be driving the agenda.
Let's take back. Let's take back the agenda. The first
(24:54):
thing he said was, look, you know we were governed
in large park by We called it the rule of holes.
And I'll stop here, Marcus, I probably gave you more
than you wanted. The rule of holes. It's quite simple.
When you're dig in a hole and you find yourself
over your head, the first thing to do is put
down the shovel, and that's what we wanted to do.
(25:15):
We wanted to put down the shovel. It's like, look,
we can't take care of this road system we already have.
It's three hundred and eighty six thousand miles strong, but
it's fallen off these hillsides into creeks all across the
United States. Let's focus on doing a better job of
managing access into our national forests. So because people love
to get in there, but also let's realize that these
(25:36):
remaining roadless areas, as I said earlier, the timber values
are typically low. They're hard to get to, or we
would have cut them previously, and what's happened over time
is their fish and wildlife values have just flown off
the chart. And so we said there is an inherent
value in keeping these places wild. Let's keep them wild.
Speaker 1 (25:58):
Now.
Speaker 4 (25:58):
That doesn't mean you can't go in to them. I mean,
we'll talk about this when we talk about this proposal
that's been offered by the administration. But there's been a
ton of management that has occurred in these roads areas.
But what it means is you don't need to pump
a road in everywhere. Yeah right, you know. I mean,
today's technology is so much better than it was in
the sixties and the seventies, where you couldn't do a
(26:20):
timber sale back then if you didn't build a road.
That is not the case today. And so anyway, that's
what that was the backdrop that led to, you know,
the promulgation of the roadless Area Conservation Rule, which ended
up protecting fifty eight and a half million acres back
in two thousand and one.
Speaker 3 (26:40):
That is an amazing context for us, and that's perfect
And to your point, there's all these important resources that
we can garner from our public lands. But one of
those resources that is becoming more and more rare across
the world, and by default more and more valuable. Because
of that are those las few unroaded places. We have
(27:02):
transformed more than fifty percent of the Earth's surface, Far
more of our forests, far more of our grasslands have disappeared.
I mean we have across this nation. We have so
few places left like this. And you know, Roosevelt and
Pinchot when they were establishing all this, they spoke about
maybe the north star of all of our management should
(27:23):
be thinking about future generations, not making decisions for the
short term only, but also thinking about the long term.
Speaker 4 (27:30):
I think that is well, you just you nailed it. Mark.
In fact, Gifford Pinchot, you know this is one of
these things. Those of us who are in DC love
these things, and I've been involved in this too. He
wrote direction for the Secretary of Agriculture to then be
given to himself. The direction that he wrote was that
the national forests should be managed for the greatest number,
(27:53):
for the longest time. And I'm getting that quote wrong,
And I know my friends from the Forest Service are
going to get mad at me for not remember but.
Speaker 2 (28:00):
The greatest number, for the greatest good for the longest time.
Speaker 4 (28:03):
For the longest time. That's it. Thank you, Mark, you
just saved me. But that's the that's the point, right,
I mean when when when these reserves, they were called
forest reserves, were created, they were designed to be almost
like a bulwark against the liquidation of timberlands across private
(28:23):
land across America and state lands. I mean, that's you know,
one of the reasons that organizations like Child Unlimited have
a hard time looking at, you know this notion, well,
we won't divest your public lands. We won't sell them
to rich people who are going to build fences and
post them no no trespassing. We'll just give them to
the states to manage. Well, most of the states, almost
(28:44):
all the western states, have constitutional mandates to manage their
state lands to generate revenues for schools and roads. And
so that's why most of the states have sold most
of their state lands. And that would exactly be the
future of the National Forests or the BLM public plans,
which is why you know, what the Senate was considering
a month or so ago was so by the time
(29:06):
this is shown, was you know, considered offensive to so
many of us who hunt and fish. But what Pinchot
and Roosevelt and those early pioneers in the Forest Service
saw is that these are lands that should be managed
conservatively for the long run. And the most conservative, I mean,
one of the most conservative policies that I can think
(29:28):
of that the US government has implemented over the past
twenty five years is the Roadless Area Conservation Rule because
it basically says we're going to keep intact these systems
that are unroaded. They're not unmanaged. You know, we can
talk about that there's been a ton of forest health
treatments in these in these roadless area landscapes. But you know,
(29:52):
the true definition of conservation is to It comes from
the Latin word conservaari conservai, and that means to hold
or keep in a safe state. And that's precisely what
the roadless Rule did, is it keptain held in a
safe state these backcountry areas.
Speaker 3 (30:09):
Okay, So that is what led us to this point
where the Forest Service realized, Okay, we need to do
something a little bit different. We need to regain some
sense of agency for our agency. Yeah, to termine how this.
Speaker 2 (30:24):
Thing is going to move forward.
Speaker 3 (30:26):
Can you spell out for me how how you and
the Chief chief domback and the rest of the team
were able to develop the road the roadless rule as.
Speaker 2 (30:37):
It as it stands. Now what that looked like.
Speaker 3 (30:39):
And I know there was so much controversy, There was
so much back and forth, something like one point six
million public comments, I believe on the proposal. So I'd
love to understand what that looked like and then what
led to the final output, Like what the final output
looked like given all of this back and forth and
public perspectives and everything like that.
Speaker 4 (31:00):
Yeah, you know, so one of the things I've appreciated
about I started my career early on at the Bureau
of Land Management and then and then I moved over
to the Forest Service during this period that we're talking about,
and you know, the wisdom that was imparted to me
by these long time career professionals has guided me to
(31:22):
this day. And I I've written about this in the past.
It's what's so offensive to me about how a lot
of these public servants have been treated because they're good people.
And there's not a single person who didn't go to
work for the US Forest Service or the Bureau of
Land Management, not a single one who didn't go because
they wanted to make the world a better place. That's
(31:42):
what they all wanted. And so but I say that,
but what I wasn't hampered with at that time in
my life was a thirty year career at the same agency.
And so you know, it's why I alwaysppreciate, you know,
with Trout Unlimited, when we bring in younger people into
(32:05):
the management ranks or into leadership positions, because they just
look at the world slightly different. They're not stuck in
the same ruts that I'm now stuck. But at the time,
I remember thinking, so, we've got this an eight and
a half billion dollar maintenance backlog. We've got a road
system we can't take care of. The other thing I
hadn't mentioned is that the House of Representatives had passed
(32:27):
a vote and amendment that would have cut the Forest
Service's road budget by eighty percent, including all the maintenance
of the existing road system. And they did that as
a surrogate to get us to stop building new roads
into roads. Every one of these roadless sales, every one
of them were litigated. They were all held up in court.
(32:49):
And we're talking about timber sales that lose money. So
it's like we're expending public tax dollars to get into
these areas that have low timber values, to put a
bunch of roads on the landscape that are going to
fall off, and they're going to ruin the fisheries down below.
And by the way, they're going to increase fire starts
because roads increase fire starts, and they're going to drive
out ungulate they're going to drive out wild populations. And
(33:13):
so I looked at that, you know, the eyes of it,
you know, a young guy, and I was like, well,
why are we doing this at all? Right, like if
we can't get the timber out anyway. It was a
completely incidental contribution to the Forest Service timber base. I
mean we're talking this was less than it was like
a percent, and that was a that was a prixotic
(33:36):
percent because it was always held up in court for
fifteen years. So the value of that percent decreased over
every year that it was held up at court. And
and so we just and then and then we started
thinking about, like, well, what is it most people really
care about public lands for? And again it command we
had been managing these landscapes for thirty forty years as
(33:58):
this bread basket of commodity to be brought to market.
But but nobody else thought of them that way. These
were places where families that couldn't afford to go to,
you know, a resort, would take their kids camping in
the summer. They were places where, you know, when you know,
I have the benefit of working a child unlimited, and
sometimes I get to go to these swank places where
(34:19):
you know, it costs like thousand dollars a day to fish.
Most Americans can't afford that. We can go to your
public lands. You can catch brook chout in the Green
Mountain National Forest to your heart's content or closer to me, uh,
you know the you know, the Monogahila in West Virginia
for brook chowd or out west. There's countless national forests
where you can go to, all of which are strongholds
(34:40):
for native fish. And so we realized that was the seat,
that was the switch we had to make, and frankly
it was it was incredibly controversial, not only outside the
Forest Service but inside the agency. It was controversial because
you had these people who, you know, their forest their
engineers there there can do people, they solve problems, they
(35:05):
know how to fix things, and they were like, no,
we can build better roads. We can, we can you know,
figure out different ways to get into those back country areas.
And it was like, yeah, we could, and I don't
doubt that, but we could also just leave them alone,
just leave them as God created them. Let's have what's
wrong with having some reference landscapes from a fish and
wildlife perspective, and you know how big the hunting and
(35:26):
fishing economies are in this country. Those are our nurseries. Man,
Let's leave them alone. They're not going anywhere if we
discover some you know, you know, rare earth mineral that's
gonna you know, save America from being colonized by Martians
down the line, and we need to go get it. Okay, fine,
well go get it, but for now, let's just leave
them intact. And that was the big shift in thinking
(35:51):
that happened back when we did the rule, and it was,
as I say, it was incredibly controversial internally. It was
also controversial externally kind of sort of of those ninety
you know, of those you know, one point eight million,
I think it was comments that came in ninety seven
freaking percent were in support of protecting roadless soviets or
even stronger. And the one thing I would say I
(36:13):
would be remiss not to say, was there has been
a sea change in thinking at the Forest Service over
the past twenty four years, and today some of the
strongest advocates for roadless protection come from within the United
States Forest Service. This is not a proposal that they
would have put out there, guaranteed. This is not being
(36:35):
driven by the professionals and for a service. You know,
this is a political directive that's been given to them,
and I don't know that they have the stomach for this.
So we'll have to see what happens through this rulemaking
because I I think, as I said earlier, I think
some of the strongest advocates for roadless protection today are
United States Forest Service employees, and I don't think they
(36:57):
want to go back to the battle days where everything's
going to get litigated and held up in court.
Speaker 3 (37:02):
So so you helped write this correct You worked with
the chief and the.
Speaker 2 (37:07):
Staff there to actually develop Yeah, there was a team.
Speaker 4 (37:10):
There was a team of agency professionals who did almost
all the heavy lifting. I was I was like the
style game, okay, you know, but I did a lot
of media work and I did a lot of interagency coordination.
And as I we mentioned before this call, one of
my jobs was to take all the meetings that the
chief didn't want to take, which was, you know, just
(37:30):
about all the meetings. And so I heard from a
lot of different communities about this topic. But but yeah,
I was there. I mean I was there on that team,
and I was a part of it.
Speaker 3 (37:40):
Okay, So I want to I want to dive into
a little bit more of what resulted of this rule
being put in place and finalized. But I think another
important thing to note is that you know this, the
Forest Service has a multiple use mandate and this did
not change that, and that this impacted fifty eight point
(38:02):
five million acres of national forest and then there was
another you know, x million acres of wilderness, of designated wilderness.
But then that's still left I think more than one
hundred million acres of or close to that of national
forest lands that were still managed fully multiple use, still
being utilized as a resource, still you know, supporting local
(38:25):
communities that did have some timber jobs, et cetera.
Speaker 2 (38:28):
Correct.
Speaker 3 (38:29):
So it wasn't like we were with this roadless rule
shutting down you know, utilizing the forest resources.
Speaker 4 (38:35):
Correct, No, that's exactly right, Mark, I mean look, and
to be clear, right, I mean you remiss not to
say this wilderness is a multiple use. You know, roadless
protection is a multiple use. Leaving these places intact for
future generations is a multiple use. But yeah, and even
after these areas were protected, we've the trout To Limited
(38:59):
Science team has been coming up with some groundbreaking work
that we haven't released yet, but I'll let you in
on some things I literally got just yesterday. So in
the state of Montana, for example, twenty six percent of
all the lands that have been treated for hazardous fuels
in the past twenty four years have been within inventoried
(39:21):
roads series. That number climbs to thirty one percent in
the state of Utah, where the proposal emanated to sell
or divest our public land legacy, and so these landscapes.
We didn't say you can't go in there and manage
for hazardous fuels. We didn't say you can't go in
there and build, you know, develop oil and gas resources.
(39:43):
We didn't say you can't go in there and you know,
and do hard rock mining if you've got a valid,
existing right to do that. We just said you can't
build a road. And you know, like I said earlier,
we're not in the sixties anymore. There's a lot more
ways to access landscapes today than there are building super
expensive roads that have a tendency to want to fall
off the landscape into rivers below. So there's been a
(40:06):
tremendous amount of forest health treatments in and outside of
roadless areas. Inside of roadless areas, I should say, over
the past nearly quarter century, where the agency needs to
be focused are where those forests are that adjoin human communities.
That's where most of the forest health treatments need to
(40:30):
take place. We have to protect people in human communities first,
and that is where I'm not suggesting that these treatments
that I mentioned In places like Utah and Montana, Idaho,
they've treated over a million acres of roadless lands for
forest health purposes in the past twenty five years. I'm
not suggesting that any of that work is bad. I'm
sure it's all good and legitimate work. But what is
(40:53):
erroneous is to suggest that because of the roadless rule,
forest health treatments, hazardous fuels reductions not occur in roadless areas.
That is a canard that's simply not true. It's belied
by the data. But perhaps the more significant public policy
issue that we should wrestle with as hunters and anglers
is where do we want the Forest Service doing these
(41:16):
hazardous fuels reduction projects? Do we want them going into
the back country areas or do we want them hanging
around the front country where the fires are going to
come down and creep off the national forest primarily from
roadedge systems where the vast majority of fire ignition start.
And you've got these overgrown forests that already have roads,
(41:36):
And why wouldn't you, why wouldn't you focus your treatments
on those areas adjacent to the so called wildland urban interviews.
Speaker 3 (41:43):
Yes, so I want to take a step back and
explain this a little bit more for people that maybe
aren't familiar.
Speaker 2 (41:48):
So when the roads.
Speaker 3 (41:50):
Rule went into place, it kept this fifty eight point
five million acre swath from having new additional roads. In
the years since, and really in the years before that,
we had wildfire suppression policies that led to, you know,
natural fires not happening the way they used to. The
management of our forests for many different reasons, maybe has
(42:11):
changed in certain ways. That has led to some places
being maybe heavily stocked with fuels, and now we have
everything with our changing climate that's leading to dryer you
know spells and fuel that is just ready and just
waiting for a spark to set off. All of that
has led to you know, wildfire issues. There's the whole
pine beetle outbreak over recent decades has led to a
(42:34):
whole lot of dead trees as well. So long story short,
Today many politicians like to say that we have undermanaged
forests that are bad for wildlife and that are bad
for catastrophic wildfire, and so that's bad for hunters and anglers,
and that's bad for the health of surrounding communities. And
(42:55):
I hear many people blaming that on the roadless rule,
blaming that on the environmental communities, you know, advocating for
protection of our national force.
Speaker 2 (43:05):
So so that's that's the pushback.
Speaker 3 (43:09):
It's saying, hey, because you guys have these worldless areas
or because you designated wilders, now we're not managing our forests.
That's why it's not supporting as many wildlife. That's why
we have horrible wildfires. We need to get in there
and do different things.
Speaker 2 (43:23):
So that's the critique.
Speaker 3 (43:24):
Can you take that critique and more and be a
little more specific with explaining your perspective on why that
is not true.
Speaker 2 (43:32):
Because he just did. But I'd love for you to
address it.
Speaker 4 (43:35):
Yeah, yeaheah, Yeah, I'm you know, I'm sitting here. My
parents are much on my mind because this is the
place where we always retreated as a family for the
past thirty years where I am now And as I
mentioned earlier, Mom just passed away and Dad passed away
a few years before. Dad was one of he was
voted one of one hundred best basketball players in Newark history,
(43:57):
and he played in like nineteen fifty five. I mean,
so the fact that they remembered him today, it's a
remarkable For a few years ago, and I remember telling
my dad and I played basketball, and I remember telling Dad,
you know, the reason I'm not a good basketball player
is that I stopped growing at six', One and he would, say, No,
chris the reason you're not as good as you could
(44:18):
have been because you didn't practice hardbough and you didn't
work enough on your off, hand and you had too
many other things that distracted you and kept you preoccupied
from becoming a great basketball. Player saying that the roadless
rule is keeping is contributing to those problems that you
described well a moment ago mark is like saying That
(44:41):
chris didn't become a good basketball player at six one
six y two because he didn't grow a couple more.
Inches it's just not. True the fact is that across
The Western United, states every single landscape are systems that
evolved with, fire and some, cases like on the west
side of The, cascades the fire was what we would
(45:04):
call catastrophic, today would come every one hundred or two hundred,
years and in lodge pole stands it would do this,
naturally it would come, in you'd have these big. Disturbances
you'd either have wind throw that would knock all the
seventy five year old lodge pole, over or you'd have
big fires that would move through and burn it all
to the. Ground we you, know starting you, know one
of the you, know legacy issues of the Early Forest
(45:25):
service was every fire should be put out by ten.
Am and so what we did is we we took these,
systems these ecological systems that evolved with, fire and we
said no more fire every by ten. Am Forest services
standing orders where we're going to put fire. Out AND
i mean it was a completely understandable. Reaction we had
(45:48):
horrible fires that killed multiple, firefighters burnt communities to the
ground in places Like idaho And, montana and they happened.
Today it's it's not just a relic of the. Past them,
afraid but it's in part because we've you, know there's
there's for those of us who study, rivers there's a
there's a saying you. Can't you can't ever divorce a
(46:09):
river from its. Floodplain you can, try you can dig,
it you can dike, it you can ditch, it you
can build burns up alongside, it but eventually that river
is going to find its floodplain and it's going to
take everything in the floodplain with it. Downstream and you
can't divorce these fire adapted systems from. Fire it just
(46:31):
can't be. Done and so the answer then, is, well
how do you in the places where we've built. Communities
we can't unbuild. THEM i don't think that's, Realistic but
we can take steps to make those communities themselves really.
Safe we can make sure that they don't have wood shingle,
(46:51):
roofs we can make sure that they don't have you,
know landscaping close flammable landscaping close to the. House we
can make sure that if they're adjacent To National force
forests ninety five percent of which will have been roaded,
already they'll be part of the general forest structure that
you mentioned. Earlier we can make sure that we have
done a lot of thinning and other treatments in those
(47:11):
landscapes so that if a fire does, start because a
fire will, start it's gonna, happen that we have a
better chance of knocking it. Down that we don't have
all these because the results of every fire out by
ten am was instead of having you, know twenty five
trees per acre in some, stands we'd have one hundred and.
(47:33):
Fifty there's just a lot more fuel than there used to.
Be and what happens is over time if you don't
go in and manage these. Stands So i'm agreeing on
the management. Part you, know you have stands that are
different levels of the, canopy and so the fire will create,
it it'll climb until you get it, exactly and you'll
get these so called stand replacement. Fires and so we
(47:55):
need to be able to get into these landscapes and
look at ecologically where should they have? Been can we
safely reintroduce fire and in those landscapes where we, can by,
god we need to do. That we can't pretend. TO i,
mean some of WHAT i hear today at The Forest,
service it's almost like we're just sort of trying to
forget about thirty forty years of fire. Science like the
(48:19):
agency knows that we've got to get more fire back
into these, systems but we have to do it in
a safe. Way and the way you do it in
a safe way is you make sure that the communities
themselves are protecting, themselves that the forests around the communities are,
protected and by, gosh if those are roadless areas adjacent
to those, communities and we need to make sure they
were going in, there and you, know reducing unnaturally large
(48:41):
fuel loads to thereby reduce unnaturally large. Fires and that
gets to a really important point THAT i want to.
Make i'm not suggesting that we haven't learned anything relative
to forest management or fire science over the past twenty four.
Years that we had all the thinking right twenty four years.
Ago AND i think if the administration had come in and, said,
(49:02):
look we want to look at this rule in the
context of what we've learned over the intervening couple decades
and make sure we're applying the best science to better
protecting these extremely important ecological values of roadless. Areas oh
and making sure that these communities are safe. TOO i,
mean troud and limited would be at the, leader we'd
(49:22):
be right in the front of that. Conversation but that's
not what they're. Saying they're, basically you, know coming up
with these sort of artificial nineteen forties era arguments that
we need to build roads into roadless areas to fight,
fires we need to build. Roads there's not a firefighter
In america who will tell you that you need to
build a road when there's a fire on the ground
(49:43):
to put out a. Fire that's just as a that's,
dissembling that's all that. Is But i'm not suggesting that
there might be some other techniques that we want to
specify that should be applied in treating some of these
landscapes that we did know about a, while you, know
twenty four years. Ago but unfortunately that hasn't been the
(50:05):
direction that the administration has taken. Initially and you, know
my hope is that with enough voices from enough hunters and,
anglers they'll change that perspective and they'll they'll they'll pivot
to something that looks at this from a more constructive
method of how do we better protect roadless areas and
better protect human?
Speaker 3 (50:23):
Communities now correct me If i'm, wrong and you would
know this much better THAN. I but weren't there some
exceptions built into the roleless rule that said that roads
(50:45):
could be built into these places if it was needed
to protect public health and safety and because of catastrophic.
Wildfire and weren't there exceptions that said that if management
more active management was needed to help threaten wildlife species
and you could do this with some cutting of small diameter,
trees roads could be built to accomplish those goals. Too
(51:06):
so weren't there some kind of roundabouts to address these.
Speaker 4 (51:10):
Concerns, yeah it's exactly, Right, Mark and one of the
things that we're, doing you, know, Sadly i'm not sure
we can expect The Forest service to do, it but
one of the things that we're doing is looking at
those like you, KNOW i mentioned to you that you
know the stats About utah And, Montana idaho And arkansas
where the chairman of The House Natural Resources committee. Lives
(51:31):
a third of all the roadless areas in the state
Of arkansas have been treated for hazardous fuel treatments under
these exceptions that you're talking. About so there was a
prohibition on timber cutting except for you, know the kind
of timber cutting that it leads to the forest health
treatments that we're talking, about the hazardous fuels reductions that
need to be, done and so we're trying to document
(51:52):
all of that and get it all in on. Place
well at the same time looking at the SO i,
mean just take like the state Of. Idaho if you
look at the fisheries values of roadless areas in the
state Of, idaho sixty eight percent of all bull trout
are dependent on roadless areas for their, survival fifty eight
percent of all west in the state Of, idaho of
all west slope cutthroat trout are dependent on roadless areas
(52:14):
for their survival seventy four. Percent nearly three quarters of
all the habitat for chinook and steelhead are found in
roadless areas in the state Of. IDAHO i, mean he's
and you, know and again going back To, idaho BECAUSE
i used to hunt out there in the Frank Church
River No Return. Wilderness the longest center fire rifle seasons
(52:36):
are in roadless areas in the state Of idaho because
that's where the most game. Is and so you, know
we're we're working really hard AT tu to make sure
that all that data is put into the public, conversation
because the agency is going to have to go through
what they call a rule making. Process they can't undo
(52:56):
the roadless rule with the stroke of a. Pen they
have to have what they call no notice and comment
where people get to view their. Opinions they have to
disclose the effects of what the federal government wants to
do in a public. Forum that's where they analyze the
effects of you, know their proposed. Actions AND i just
CAN'T i can't stress enough how important it. Will it's
(53:18):
so easy for, people and especially hunters and. Anglers you,
know we'd rather be in the woods around the. Water
the last thing we want to do is sit at
a computer and type up a note to some bureaucrat
somewhere who you, know we don't think is going to
pay attention to. It so it's so easy for us
to just Say i'm not going to. Bother but it
(53:38):
is so important that hunters and anglers make their voices
heard on this rule more than any. Other. Now three weeks,
AGO i would have said the same thing about the
whole effort to divest public, plans because that was truly
a boneheaded, proposal and we would have stood to gain
or lose the most and gain the. Least, today there's
(53:58):
no question in my mind that the road this rule
is the single most important regulation that benefits hunting and
fishing In. America and woe to us if we don't
make our voices, heard because we are not people who
live in. Cities GENERALLY i, do but you know we're,
not you, know urban dwellers who have this sort of
disassociated relationship with, Nature like these landscapes are visceral and
(54:23):
real to. Us WHEN i hunt in our land In West,
virginia OR i hunt on The monoghahila or the Frank church,
like you, Know i'm in the. Zone i'm in my happy.
Place and typically we're a more conservative lot than most
people who are who will participate in these. Processes and
the only way we're going to be able to convince
(54:44):
the administration to pivot to looking at this from the
context of what new information can we bring to bear
to better manage world this areas and better protect human.
COMMUNITIES i believe the only community that will be able
to help them ttration pivot are probably hunters and. Angles
and we've got to make our voices heard in a
(55:04):
way that they've never been heard. Before and you know, What,
Mark i'll tell you. THIS i told you this earlier
BECAUSE i know we're probably running. OUT i remember WHEN
i took all those meetings for The chief of The Forest.
SERVICE i met with all the regulated, industries the oil
and gas, guys the coal, guys the timber, folks all of.
Them AND i met with all the environmental. Community they
all came, In Sierra, club The Center's, wildlife all of
them came one side saying you're doing too, Much you're
(55:27):
trying to do too, much the other side saying you're
not doing, Enough you're not doing. ENOUGH i never had
a single meeting request from an organization that represented hunters and,
angles not, one not. One the constituency that stood to
gain the most was the most absent from this rule
making the first time. Around and we have directly hunting
(55:49):
and hunters and angles have directly benefited from the roadless
rule in the intervening two and a half, decades and
if we want to see that kept, intact we want
to see those the benefits of those protections. Continued it's
absolutely imperative we not sit this one. Out we have
got to make our voices.
Speaker 3 (56:06):
Heard and you, know one of the most tangible challenges
of our modern day world as a hunter and angler,
today and the thing THAT i think gets the most
people complaining and upset and riled up is how access
has changed and how busy it's, getting whether it be you,
know our public land hunting opportunities are a lousy now
(56:29):
because there's so many people, everywhere or if it's well
you can't float The madison of The Henry's fork without
a without a drift, boat hatch and dozens and dozens
and dozens of other people, right, well it is these roadless,
areas these last handful of places that we have where
we have the opportunity to have some degree of, solitude
where many of like the last best elk hunting, spots
(56:52):
last best mule deer hunting, spots the last best places
that we are that we are clamoring for and hoping
we can get to. Someday that's what's at stake, here
those blue lines that you mentioned, earlier where you can
get away from folks and still have that wild experience
that no longer can you really have on The madison
or down here by me on The Henry's fork or
(57:12):
The South. Fork even these places are, rightfully they're very. Popular,
yeah we have these last best hunting and fishing locations
that are very very tangible FOR i think those of
us who care about these things so and it's important
To and they're.
Speaker 2 (57:26):
Free they're, free and they're.
Speaker 4 (57:28):
Free there are is. There they're a birthright of being
An american, citizen AND i can you, KNOW i can't
guarantee it, obviously but the pressure you're going to find
in roadless areas if you're either deer or elk, hunting
it's not going to compare to what you're going to
find on The National Forest, system where most people pull
off on a road to build a campsite and fell
(57:49):
camp and they walk around the woods and they'll see
all their buddies and camel out with. Them, yeah you,
know you just it's a completely different experience. There you're
in these back country area and.
Speaker 3 (57:57):
An, again like people like to complain and, say, well
roads mean access and access is, important and we already
have nearly four hundred thousand miles of rows through our Forest,
service so there's plenty of places for places for folks
who want that easy. Access we have just a handful
of these places left that you can actually have to
really hike. In so those, places like the last ones we,
have let's let's protect that one of the multiple. Uses
(58:19):
and then again to what we've talked about over and over.
Again you, know everyone wants to go back to what
we need to. Better we need to more actively manage our.
Forests and as we've, discussed there's tens and tens and
tens and tens of millions of acres where we can
have every type of active management you.
Speaker 2 (58:33):
Want and, yes we need to continue to.
Speaker 3 (58:35):
Find more ways to make sure the litigation doesn't hold
up the appropriate wildlife benefiting.
Speaker 2 (58:41):
Management we need to make sure that we're.
Speaker 3 (58:43):
Appropriate we do allow for sustainable extraction of timber and
the right places to be. Done, absolutely as you were,
describing there's a real need for management to deal with
these wildfire. Issues there's exceptions in the roadless rule to
allow certain things to be done, still so these things
are not mutually. Exclusive we can have active management and
(59:06):
fire management and.
Speaker 2 (59:07):
Still protect these last roadless places.
Speaker 3 (59:09):
TOO i think that's something that a lot of the
politicians today want to pretend that you have to choose
one or the.
Speaker 4 (59:14):
Other and that's just as they make it a zero some,
game and it's. NOT i, mean the fact is that
the opponents of the roadless rule have a philosophical argument
that they're, making and that philosophical argument is that any
constraint on our ability to do anything we want on
(59:36):
the landscape is. Problematic what we those of us who
are advocates for keeping those places, intact what we have
on our side are substantive arguments because of everything you just, Said,
Mark because there are exceptions to this rule that allow for,
management because there are so many higher priority areas that
need to have active management done to protect more people
(59:59):
than these remote by definition, landscapes and and AND i
think the important thing is that you, know we still
live in a. Democracy. Right we're Not, england, Right these
aren't this Isn't, robinhood these aren't this isn't The king's, forests,
Right this is these are our. Forests they're our, forests
and The Forest service work for, us and and so
(01:00:23):
and by, extensions so does the. Administration and SO i
just THINK i still very much believe in in the
power of, democracy AND i believe in the power of
individual voices to make a difference in the way our,
lands our lands and waters are. Managed AND i just
think it's incumbent on all of us to make sure
that we make sure that we our voices are. Heard
(01:00:46):
you can do it through organizations Like Trout, unlimited Or
Backcountry hunters And anglers Or Theodore Roosevelt Conservation, Partnership National
Wildlie federation as a whole host of. Us now it's
not like back you, know twenty four years, ago where
nobody wanted to go talk about roadless areas to the
chief of The Forest. Service it's Different. Now there's a
lot of us out there who represent hunters and, anglers
(01:01:07):
AND i just encourage everyone who listens to this, show
whether you support those organizations or, not figure out how
to get your voice. Heard because our elected leaders and
the people that we put in place to manage our
lands for, us they will listen to.
Speaker 3 (01:01:23):
Us so the THING i want to wrap up with
is revisiting something you described briefly a moment, ago and
then you started to allude to something right. There But
i'd like to better understand in detail what does the
process look like now moving forward in the coming months
as the administration tries to proceed with this, rollback this
(01:01:45):
recision of the roleless. Rule so what are the actual
steps that are going to a curve that the administration
needs to? Do and then where are the most impactful
moments for us as individuals and, Organizations like when do
our voices really make out of the most and how
are we as effective as possible of communicating. That so so,
(01:02:06):
basically this is a long wind of way of, saying
how do we most efficiently and effectively make a difference
on this?
Speaker 4 (01:02:13):
One so there's two. Answers, more there's the public, process,
right AND i am still a dwed who believes in
the public. Process and it's not just BECAUSE i actually
split my glasses yesterday playing catch with my, son but
don't use your face to catch good. Tip, Yeah so
(01:02:38):
there's the public. Process and so there, there If i'm
guessing AND i don't know this for a, fact they
have to come out with a public they'll basically come
out with a public comment. Period so they'll they'll they'll, say,
hey here's our. Idea you, know we want to rescind
the roadless. Rule here's what it. Means and there'll be
a public comment period on that, idea and that'll be
(01:02:59):
one opportunity for us to. Engage and then they'll they'll
take that back and they'll go into the basement and
they'll build their bomb and they'll, Say, okay here's our draft.
Idea what do you think of our? Idea and that'll
be another opportunity to. COMMENT i think the ability to,
overwhelm overwhelm these agencies with comments from constituents like hunters
(01:03:19):
and anglers is really really important in this public process.
Period and then they'll come out with a final and
there may or may not be comments on. That and
then what's happened in the intervening twenty four years that
a lot of people are forgetting about is all these
national forests have amended their forest plans and so if
there's a rule, change like there's overriding roadless rule gets taken,
(01:03:39):
away these individual forests will still have to amend their
plans to allow for entry into these back country areas
because they don't allow, it and these forest supervisors aren't.
Fools there's going to be VERY i think there'll be
some who are politically motivated to do it to curry,
favor but most are going to, say, MAN i don't
want to get involved in that hot. Mess but that's
(01:04:00):
the public. Process and then there's the process that affects
the public, process and that's the one THAT i think
is frankly more. Important and so there's been a lot
of reports about how people like you, know my Friends
Senator rish And Senator crapo From, idaho they came out
opposed to this public land sale, provision and The montana
(01:04:22):
Delegation shi And, dames again good, people good, friends said
that they were, opposed and that was. Great what wasn't
was that they were so that if you Recall senator
she he was proposing to introduce an amendment that would
strip out the provision that would allow for this not
allowed mandate the sale of two to three point three
(01:04:45):
million acres of for service AND blm. Land that was
adjusted later on and. Change but we had sixteen Other
republican senators lined up to oppose to support The shihi,
amendment sixteen. OTHERS i meant we had twenty. Total think about,
(01:05:09):
that there's you, know there's almost fifty to fifty in The,
senate and there's only one reason for. That it is
because hunters and anglers From, indiana From, ohio From New,
mexico From, arizona From New, York New, jersey all. Over
they basically inundated the offices of their members Of congress and,
(01:05:30):
said this is a stupid. Idea we will not support.
This we won't support you if you support. It in,
fact we want you to tell us you won't Support
and that's what. Happened that's why they withdrew. It it would
have been a devastatingly embarrassing vote for the proponent of that.
Idea if they had actually let it go to the,
floor it would lost overwhelm. Me and it was because
(01:05:54):
the right hunters and anglers called the right senators and
put the right bug in their. Ear and that's the.
Process that's outside the, process and that's where mcmeeat eater
can be so helpful by getting you, know hunters and
anglers who may not be you, know fast talking white
guys like me whose job it is to do this
stuff on a daily, basis but they may maybe they've
(01:06:17):
guided you, know a senator or a cabinet, member or you,
know a member of the president's, family and and you,
know the more we can enlist those people as. Advocates
so that's again it's outside the regular process THAT i,
described but often that outside the regular process process is
(01:06:37):
far more. Important but both are important. Here we need
to have the ground swell of support so we can
go to the people who don't typically engage in the
process and, say, dude you're on good ground.
Speaker 3 (01:06:50):
Here.
Speaker 4 (01:06:50):
Man ninety five percent of hunters and anglers want to
keep these places. Intact you're, okay this isn't some democratic camel's,
no who was under the, Tent this isn't some liberal.
Agenda this is about the most conservative thing we can.
Do we can keep or hold these backcountry areas in
a safe.
Speaker 3 (01:07:09):
State and SO i want to make SURE i understand
how so if we were to be contacting our elected,
officials even though this is not something that's being determined by,
legislatives yeah means, right.
Speaker 4 (01:07:23):
The White house will listen to. That so The White
house will listen to. Them so it's you, know contact
your members Of, congress be They democrats Or, republicans you,
know contract contact the administration through the regular formal. Process
but then many of us know people who either work
in the, administration they're either cabinet, members or they're associated
with cabinet, members or they're associated with the. Family and
(01:07:46):
the more we can engage, THOUGH i, mean, LOOK i you,
know try to unlimit. It as a huge advocate for
Protecting Bristol, bay And President trump played a ginormous role
in that back in twenty twenty by denying the key
permit to the proponent of that.
Speaker 2 (01:08:04):
Mind and it was a huge.
Speaker 4 (01:08:06):
Win and, thanks thank You President trump for making this.
POSSIBLE i don't know that that, happens but for the
fact that his sons had fished up In Bristol bay
and had publicly said they thought it should be. Protected
and so that's WHAT i mean by we had done
a great, job to you of getting hundreds of thousands
that fishing and hunting community MEET eat or everybody came
(01:08:27):
together on that ONE sims or, everybody all the outdoor,
brands everybody was. Great it wasn't as valuable as one tweet.
Speaker 2 (01:08:35):
From Donald trump J Donald Trump.
Speaker 3 (01:08:36):
Junior, yeah thank, Goodness so thank goodness for The Queenjack, river,
right that's, right The.
Speaker 4 (01:08:41):
Queenjack, yeah my favorite. River IF i were to die
tomorrow and The lord said you can fish on one more,
river it would be a fish the braids on the.
Speaker 2 (01:08:48):
Beach to fish the Last.
Speaker 4 (01:08:50):
Fall isn't that place? Special it really? Is CAN i
tell you a quick fish?
Speaker 2 (01:08:55):
STORE i love to love to hear.
Speaker 4 (01:08:57):
It, so SO i was on The Queen. JACK i
had to leave a. Day so you, know as you
know where you at Of Alaska Sportsans.
Speaker 3 (01:09:03):
Lot, NO i was with With Nancy Lyons nancy and
not With. BRIAN i was up by the lakesh.
Speaker 4 (01:09:17):
But Hodgins, place No Crystal.
Speaker 3 (01:09:19):
Creek this is so embarrassing and they're gonna be so
mad at me That i'm forgetting.
Speaker 4 (01:09:22):
This, well let's just cut this part.
Speaker 2 (01:09:24):
Out, SORRY i met With. Brian edit.
Speaker 4 (01:09:28):
It but but you KNOW I i was in front
of The alaska Sportsmans, lot which is on The Queen,
jack AND i KNEW i had to. LEAVE i had
to actually go To New York city of all, places
to meet with THE ceo Of tiffany And company to
get him to help come out against the public, mind
which he did, Anyway So i'm standing there and we were.
Drifting it's really cool for your. Listeners you. Know the
(01:09:50):
what happens is there's there's this lake Called, iliamna and
these resident native rainbows live in the lake and they
they migrate into the. Rivers they followed the salmon and
they eat their eggs and they eat the flesh of
the decaying sand because there's so much. Protein and so we.
Swing you can swing, eggs but then you can you
can also swing with a so called flesh. Floes they're big,
(01:10:12):
streamers and so you you, know you cast it and
then you let it swing, downstream and you, know sometimes
you'll give it a little. Action and, ANYWAY i was doing,
that and he got all the way to the end
of the, run AND i was just talking to you,
know just kind of you, know jabber jocking with the
with the, guide AND i gave it a little strip
AND i was getting ready to strip more and to
(01:10:33):
pick it up and cast, again AND i felt a
jerk AND i set, strip, set And i'm looking one
hundred and eighty degrees downstream and over THERE i see
a fish come out of the. Water AND i looked
at the guide AND i, said did you see that
fish jump over, there and he looks at me and he, said, yeah,
man that's your. Fish so this fish was all the
(01:10:55):
way down there at the end of my line and
it came out of the water all the way over.
THERE i. Know that's how incredibly strong these fish are
because they're eating those eggs in that, flesh and it
was it was only a twenty five inch rainbow and
they get up over thirty inches there and to this,
day that remains the most memorable Fish i've Ever.
Speaker 2 (01:11:16):
Yeah they.
Speaker 3 (01:11:16):
Are they are unlike any rainbow Trout i've ever seen or,
experience just like superhuman. Trout, yeah AND i remembered it's
last Cast. Lodge they're a little bit a smaller outfit up,
there as With Dagan. Walton really good, people great folks
to help out with the with A Guide academy down
there and get a lot of.
Speaker 4 (01:11:35):
Fun the Guide academy is. Awesome, yeah they, get they.
Get they. Do help. Out nancy helps, Out bryan helps,
out our Trit unlimited staff help. Out we basically Get
Alaska native villagers from The Bristol bay. Area we train
them to become guides so they can work at these.
Speaker 2 (01:11:48):
Lodges such a great, program such a special.
Speaker 3 (01:11:50):
Place, yeah very thankful that we got the right people
out there to experience it and and advocate for it
to your.
Speaker 2 (01:11:57):
Point so so, YEAH i think that's that's a terrific.
Speaker 3 (01:12:01):
Call to action for all of us to do whatever
it is that we, can whether that's calling our elected,
officials or speaking to our friends and, family or bringing
someone else out to experience these places and, say, hey
this is one of those roadless AREAS.
Speaker 2 (01:12:15):
I can speak. TO i killed my first help on
one of these roadless.
Speaker 3 (01:12:18):
Areas my kids have gone and done incredible backpacking trips
and hiking trips and had formative experiences in these roadless
areas that would be dramatically different if they changed because of.
Speaker 2 (01:12:31):
This so we have a, say we have a.
Speaker 3 (01:12:34):
Voice we just saw with the public land sale how
impactful our voices can be if we stand up together.
Speaker 2 (01:12:41):
And really demand. Something so let's do it. Again let's
do it.
Speaker 4 (01:12:46):
Again let's do it.
Speaker 3 (01:12:47):
Again, Well, chris to wrap it, up could you just
tell folks where they can learn more about what you
guys are doing as an, Organization how can they get
involved The Trout unlimited anything else like?
Speaker 4 (01:12:57):
That, YEAH i mean you know tu dot org a.
Www dot tu dot org will have a wealth of
information up. There soon we'll have a whole section on roadless,
areas because we want to get all this information out
about by state where these roadless lands are and how
important they are for trout and, salmon and how much,
(01:13:19):
activity how much treatment work has been allowed in those.
Areas just you, know we want to be able to
counter some of these arguments that we're hearing with. Facts,
AGAIN i think there's a philosophical argument for getting away
from the roadless, rule BUT i think the substantive arguments
are on our. Side and so we want to make
sure that people who fish and, hunt to you, supporters
(01:13:42):
to you, members they have access to good information to
make their voices. Heard will be making sure that everybody
knows when you, know check out our social media to
understand when you can the best way to chime. In
we've got you, know online, resources so you don't have
to write an original. Letter you can just go in
there and put your name in your address and we'll
(01:14:04):
take care of the hard part for. You but, again
just don't underestimate the power your.
Speaker 2 (01:14:08):
Voice, yeah, yeah so.
Speaker 3 (01:14:09):
True, Well, CHRIS i can't thank you enough for this chat,
today for all of your work you, know decades ago
to help put this into, place and now what you're
doing with tu tremendous, organization tremendous impact you have made
personally and. Organizationally so thank you for all, that and
thank you for.
Speaker 4 (01:14:26):
Today Thanks, mark it's been a.
Speaker 3 (01:14:29):
Pleasure and with that we will wrap this one. UP
i appreciate you joining, ME i appreciate you listening to
me And chris. TODAY i hope that you will leave
this conversation not only with the better understanding of how
we have these special protected, places but also what it's
going to take for us to keep them.
Speaker 2 (01:14:47):
AROUND i also will ask you to please.
Speaker 3 (01:14:50):
Join me in sending emails calling our elected officials taking
action to protect these last best. Places they, truly we
are one of the most rare resources we have, left
and if we don't stand up for, them certainly nobody else.
Will so thanks for joining, me thanks for being a
part of this conversation in this, community and thank you
(01:15:12):
for Staying wired To hunt
Host
Mark Kenyon
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