Ep. 982: Foundations - The Truth About the Big Bucks Behind All of Those Big Dead Bucks You See

This week, Tony explains how much money is involved in the whitetail industry, and why it paints such a disingenuous picture of big deer.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to the Wired to Hunt Foundations podcast, your guide
to the fundamentals of better deer hunting, presented by first Light,
creating proven versatile hunting apparel for the stand, saddle or blind.
First Light Go Farther, Stay Longer, and now your host
Tony Peterson.

Speaker 2 (00:20):
Hey, everyone, welcome to the Wired to Hunt Foundation's podcast,
which has brought to you by First Late. I'm your host,
Tony Peterson. In today's episode is all about the money
involved in whitetail hunting and why that matters to all
of us. Look, there's a secret in the hunting industry
that no one's going to tell you about, because honestly,
we need you to keep buying stuff, and we need
you to keep thinking that all of us are super

(00:41):
rad hunters who can do what no one else can, which,
if you believe that, will make you more likely to
buy stuff from us. The big money thing in whitetails
is kind of insane, and it's only getting worse. It's
also kind of bullshit, and I think we need to
talk about it, which is what I'm gonna do right now.

(01:03):
A long, long, long time ago, I happened to catch
an episode of Ted Nugent's show. I know some people
love Uncle Ted, some people hate him. I don't really
want to get into that. I did help interview him
early in my career and it was an eye opener,
and not in a way that made me want to
interview him again. I'll leave it there now. On this show,
Ted was hunting in northern Wisconsin, which was of particular

(01:25):
interest to me for obvious reasons. Now, when he killed
a giant, and I do mean a giant velvet antler buck,
I thought, what the hell is going on here? The
Wisconsin opener is mid September, which you know, usually means
you rarely see any buck in velvet let alone like
a two hundred inch type of deer. So I looked
up the outfitter and I found out that it was

(01:46):
a high fence operation, which meant that he didn't need
to hunt that deer within the confines of the state regulations,
you know, since it's livestock and not wildlife. I then
looked up the price to shoot a buck of that caliber,
and it was around twenty thousand dollars at that operation.
I remember thinking a couple things like, if you have
twenty k to drop out a deer, you could certainly
find an easy hunt with lower fences. Then I remember

(02:09):
thinking it's probably pretty likely he didn't need to pay
the full twenty thousand dollars for that buck, given the
exposure the outfitter would get from the show. I've had
quite a few experiences as a casual consumer of outdoor
content and quite a few more as an insider that
have exposed me to the money that is involved in
deer hunting, and honestly, while it's a huge part of

(02:29):
the game, it's also something that is very rarely discussed.
After all, pretty much every person who is a hunting
influencer wants you to believe that they are relatable. Every
brand that makes bows and broadheads and guns and clothing
and everything related to hunting also wants to be attached
to that relatable sentiment. Not every brand, I guess, since

(02:49):
there are some premium you know, luxury guns and other
items that are marketed exclusively to this small percentage of
outdoor folks you know who can afford such things, and
you know probably sheep hunt on a regular But mostly
everyone wants to be as relatable as possible because that
builds brand loyalty and moves the revenue needle. But the
truth is that big money is such an advantage I

(03:11):
really don't even know how to overstate it. So let
me start at the bottom of this one and talk
about yours. Truly. One of the huge reasons I started
hunting public land and trying to kill deer where anyone
else could is because I was broke as a joke
at the time and just as fed up with the
hunting industry as a lot of people are today. I'd
spent a couple of years editing articles for people who

(03:31):
mostly had really really good deer hunting in places like Iowa,
but who were writing articles for people who definitely didn't
have access to that kind of ground. It left a
bad taste in my mouth because candy land hunts aren't
what most hunters have access to. So I set out
on the public land thing and tried to be relatable,
and you know what, it worked. But I had so

(03:55):
many advantages for starters. I wasn't paying for most of
my gear. I was paying for my tags and travel
at the time, but that was all right off, and
killing deer, at least in a roundabout way, was my job,
so it wasn't like I had to worry about leaving
the woods to go work somewhere else to make the
money that allowed me to get back to the woods.

(04:17):
I'll never forget posting photos of two public land bucks
I killed in the same weekend, one in North Dakota
and one in Wisconsin, if I'm remembering things correctly, And
someone posted that they can't believe anyone can kill bucks
like that on public land. That made me feel pretty good.
But that person undoubtedly had fewer advantages than I did.

(04:37):
Even a bottom of the barrel kind of fella like
me has so many advantages. It's really not the same thing.
And whether you believe this or not, it's one of
the primary reasons I keep trying to hunt hard places.
For the most part, I think that that is at
least partially our duty, even if it means shooting smaller
deer and eating more tags. But you might have noticed

(04:57):
that not everyone who hunts public land as a forward
facing individual is settling for two year old eight pointers.
Every year. You might see some of these folks killing
absolute giants over and over. You think that happens without
a lot of money, It doesn't, and it doesn't happen
usually without lots and lots of money. Sure, someone can

(05:18):
get really good at home state hunts where they can
put in tons of time or maybe stringed together to
a few good bucks in multiple states, but over a
long enough timeline it usually just levels out to good years,
bad years, and a base level consistency that's higher than
your average hunter. Now that exists, and there are some
very very good hunters out there who have made a

(05:38):
name for themselves by not having a giant bank account
but working really hard at hunting and being students of
the game. But there are a lot of folks who
have access to money most of us couldn't even dream about,
and they can buy information, they can pay for exclusive access,
and generally enlist all of the help that deep pockets
can buy. Recently filmed the show with a cameraman who

(06:01):
has worked all over the industry and who knows a
hell of a lot of cameramen, and he dropped a
few stories of bucks being saved for big name folks
who paid unbelievable money for the opportunity, you know, money
like fifteen to twenty thousand dollars to reserve the opportunity
to hunt specific bucks that are known and advertised by outfitters.
You ever notice how you never hear about what someone

(06:23):
pays to go hunt and shoot giant deer at outfitters.
It's because it would make most folks just not care
about the deer. I think we all know that, but
we don't really know the like nitty gritty details of that.
There has been a long history of buying opportunities that
giant deer on private land. There is a more recent
reality of buying information leading to big public land deer

(06:46):
as well as Western critters. Is it illegal, Nope, But
to that cloud the water is a bit on what
we are all doing with ourselves. I think so. It's
not just that, though, because the big money has to
get to the folks who are paying that big money
for the A buddy of mine used to handle accounts
for several big outdoor brands. He was responsible for tying
up influencers with marketing budgets. One fellow they were working

(07:09):
with turned down a contract they offered up that was
worth two hundred grand for one brand. There was a
breakdown in there of you know, actual straight cash, a
hunt budget, and a gear budget, but the whole compensation
package was two hundred thousand dollars. Does that sound pretty relatable?
It's not, and that money buys a lot of big,

(07:32):
dead critters, which keeps the whole snowball rolling along. Now,
when you think about paying twenty five or thirty grand
for an elk on a highly exclusive ranch, you probably
think that it's just pure bananas and really open to
rich oil tycoons or folks who bought five thousand shares
of Amazon at its IPO and have held on pretty
tightly since. But it's also the people who sell you

(07:54):
hunting gear with an aweschus attitude and a curated air
of being just like everyone else, but just a little
harder working if you get my drift. Now, Look, I
don't want to sound like I'm just dunking out a
bunch of folks, because I don't mean it that way.
Hunting is an industry, and you don't get badass bows
and trail cameras and all the stuff we use without

(08:14):
the typical trappings of capitalism in its current form. It's
just the nature of the game, and honestly, I'm okay
with it. I think people should just be able to
make a lot of money and start businesses and brands
and go for broke. I just think that it sucks
a little bit that an image is being sold that you, too,
dear listener, can easily have what others have. But just

(08:34):
by buying a few things and hunting a certain way,
or maybe just working on developing some real grit, you
should do all that. It actually will help. But so

(08:55):
would an extra two hundred thousand dollars a year. In fact,
I bet that would be the busiest way to shoot
a bunch of big bucks or bulls. Uh, because it
is Well, maybe you're thinking, okay, but what about the
folks who just worked hard and developed a brand and
a following, and now they own some good land and
grow huge bucks. What's so bad about that? Nothing? There's
absolutely nothing bad about it, I don't think. In fact,

(09:18):
I admire people way more who can build and run
a business for a long time over people who can
kill big bucks. I really do. But you also need
to understand that the business part produces those big bucks.
Several years ago, I interviewed the male half of a
celebrity deer hunting couple, although not the one that probably
comes immediately to your mind right now, and he casually

(09:40):
mentioned that he planted one hundred acres of food blots
that year, one hundred acres of food blots just for deer.
Do you have any idea how much land you need
to have access to in order to carve out one
hundred acres? For a frame of reference, if you stood
where you are now and could somehow walk in a

(10:02):
perfectly straight line to the east, you would walk two
thousand and eighty seven feet before you turn north, where
you would walk two thousand and eighty seven feet, and
then west the same distance, and finally south. Inside of
that is one hundred acres. Now, that power couple, they
killed big bucks, and a lot of them. But what
do you think the dollar value behind that land and

(10:25):
the input costs of those crops and other resourcess. At
one point in my career I did a whole bunch
of speaking events at sports shows and deer classics. I
got paid five hundred dollars a day, which back then
meant an awful lot to me, which is why I
didn't mind going up on stage after water skiing squirrels
and shit like that. One year I spoke at a

(10:47):
deer classic where a couple of really well known white
tail hunters were the keynote speakers. They got paid twenty
five thousand dollars for the weekend, but also got a
free booth from which they sold merchandise, and boy, they
were moving some shirts and hats. Imagine making something like
I don't know, forty or fifty grand for a weekend.
You know what that buys you a shitload of land,

(11:09):
which is the key ingredient to growing giant deer and
shooting them. When you're in the industry, you hear about
one hundred thousand dollars Western leases, giant sponsorship deals, and
just big money stuff all the time, But none of
that really trickles down to the audience because it would
absolutely take the shine off the apple. And believe me,
I know that I'm a part of this machine and

(11:30):
it has always bothered me. I get why so many
people are so sick of the hunting industry and why
so many folks are just jaded. I think in general,
we are at a stage of humanity where we are
just inundated with propaganda and just total bullshit all the time.
It comes at us from every direction, and most of
us create a little bit of it ourselves. If we

(11:50):
use social media at all, we all know that, and
it's like we're just stuck in the undertow and can't
see any reason to try to swim out of it.
That sucks. But what I want to say about this,
you know, the message I really want to get out
on this anyway, is this just got to find your
own way, go be happy out there. However, you have
to forget what other people kill and what they do,

(12:11):
because you know what that big money is in deer
that aren't a part of the industry as well. Most
of the folks you see who kill big bucks with
any consistency have money. Not all of them, mind you,
but a hell of a lot of the grip and
grins you see are propped up on real money, leases,
buying farms, paying for outfitted hunts. It's all predicated on

(12:32):
the big spend. And good for those folks. For real,
If you have money and that's what you want to
spend it on, I don't begrudge anyone that. But if
you don't, or spending half a year's college tuition to
shoot a deer someone else scouted for you seems like
the move of an insane person. There's an easier way,
just go hunting. Forget about everyone else. The truth is
that whitetail hunting is full of bs, and we all

(12:55):
do it. We all want everyone to know we are,
you know, hunting the hardest deer. And the only reason
we killed that one hundred and twenty and eight pointer
when we should kill one sixties is because the family
needed us more and it just felt right in a moment.
And we really don't care about trophies anymore. We really
want to know, you know, we could kill a giant,
we just don't or whatever, and on and on. But

(13:17):
it doesn't matter, my friends. Deer hunting is something that
should be between us and the deer, you know, mostly
you know, maybe us the deer, our families, and maybe
some close friends. I kind of look at this stuff,
you know, like it has just gotten harder and harder
to keep parts of it all secret, and that the
money has gotten bigger and bigger because there's more competition
for eyeballs and earballs, and every brand out there is

(13:39):
looking to attach itself to the folks who can you know,
get their products in front of all those eyes or
Whisper Sweet, nothing's into all those ears. There is a
machine built around making money off of hunting just like
there is around literally every facet of our lives. It
influences behavior, it promises success, and it directly funds the
death of an awful lot of giant bucks. It's just

(14:01):
the way it kind of goes. So if you're disgusted
by it, or indifferent or all of it, that's great.
Follow your own compass, find your own way, and do
what you have to in order to enjoy your time
in the woods. Because even though that money issue can
be an ugly part that sells a lot of folks
who want to believe it's also the reason we can
sit comfortably in a box lind with our kids on

(14:23):
a Sunday afternoon, or slip into the public land on
a Tuesday morning and hang us set super quietly, and
just about any tree we choose. Everything is nuanced and muddy.
And the only thing I really want to give you
out of this is that if you're bummed about your hunting,
or in that phase where you just can't level up
to a good one when it seems like everyone else has,

(14:43):
or you're just not enjoying it for whatever reason, it's
not hopeless. You're playing by a different set of rules.
All of which make the whole thing a hell of
a lot more difficult. I recently had a conversation with
someone who is trying to kill a doe on public
land in Kansas, and it's not owing very well. But
this person has been on or around bucks in every

(15:05):
hang and bang sit, and I was like, you can't
do much better than walking in, reading signs, setting up,
and having deer around you. You know, the goal was
to put a dough in the freezer, but that's not
the only thing that matters. I told this person, like,
you're doing a good job with your hunting circumstances and
you're stacking up wins. You know that you're not even
considering all of us, or at least most of us,

(15:28):
are also probably in a position with hunting that someone
else would kill two have think about that when you
head out. You know, sure, you might not get paid
six times the average salary in the US just to
pedal a certain brand of bo but if you have
enough gear and enough time to go hunting, and you
can fill up the truck without worrying about putting food
on the table, it could be a hell of a
lot worse. You know what, I honestly don't even really

(15:51):
know how to wrap this one up, but I've been
thinking about it all fall, after hearing some stories about
the industry and talking to people who are truly befuddled
by white They can't kill a big buck. Sometimes you
just want to get something off your chest, you know.
I'll throw out a little rant and then go back
to the woods and try to figure out where the
deer have gone to, which is what I'm going to
do this week. And I feel like you should too now,

(16:12):
even if you aren't guaranteed to have a booner walk out,
because you're slugging it out on public land with a
bunch of other hunters who might never get to set
foot on candyland even once, let alone own hundreds or
thousands of acres of it. So go have fun, remember
that everything is total bullshit, and try to enjoy your
own deer hunting ride, because if you don't, no matter
what your circumstances are, there's some hunter out there who

(16:34):
would just kill to have your opportunities. That's it for
this week. I'm Tony Peterson. This has been the Wired
to Hunt Foundation's podcast, which is brought to you by
First Light. As always, I want to thank you so
much for listening for all your support. You might have
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(16:56):
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