Ep. 995: Top Hunt and Fish Conservation Issues to Watch in 2026 with Chris Borgatti and Devin O’Dea

This week on the show we’re discussing some of the top hunting and fishing related conservation issues and opportunities to keep an eye on in 2026, and joining me are Chris Borgatti and Devin O’Dea of Backcountry Hunters & Anglers.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, your guide to
the White Tail Woods presented by first Light, creating proven
versatile hunting apparel for the stand, saddle or blind. First Light,
Go Farther, Stay Longer, and now your host, Mark Kenyon.

Speaker 2 (00:19):
Welcome back to the Wired to Hunt podcast. This week
on the show, we are discussing the top conservation issues
relevant to hunters and anglers to keep an eye on
in twenty twenty six, and I'm joined by Devin Od
and Chris Burgotti of backcountry Hunters and Anglers. All right,

(00:40):
welcome back to the Wired to Hunt podcast, and welcome to.

Speaker 3 (00:45):
The new year.

Speaker 2 (00:46):
It should be January first, I believe, or right around
that when this.

Speaker 3 (00:49):
Podcast first drops.

Speaker 2 (00:51):
So happy new year, Welcome to twenty twenty six, and
today's conversation is going to be all about looking forward
into this new year and some of the key issues,
challenges and opportunities that we should be aware of and
keeping an eye on related to hunting and fishing and
wildlife and wild places, the things that we need to

(01:13):
keep doing, the things that we love. What do we
need to keep tabs on, what do we need to
be engaging in? There was so much going on in
twenty twenty five, there were so many headlines, there were
so many social media posts and podcasts and on and
on and on. Right, you were inundated by it. I
was inundated by it. What's the new year going to
look like? That's what I want to discuss today and

(01:37):
kind of do it in a little bit more of
a general way. Our two guests today come from back
country hunters and anglers. They are the Western Policy and
Conservation Manager and the Eastern Policy and Conservation Manager for
back country hunters and anglers. On the western end is
Devin Ode. On the eastern side is Chris Borgotti. And
you know, rather than working in Washington, d C. They are,

(01:59):
prayer primarily working at the local level, on the state level,
working with fishing game commissions and agencies and state houses.

Speaker 3 (02:07):
And legislatures and all that kind of stuff.

Speaker 2 (02:10):
And then of course with the grassroots membership spread out
across the nation.

Speaker 3 (02:15):
And so I've reached out to them and just asked
them to come.

Speaker 2 (02:18):
To the table today with with some high level sets
of kind of issues or or key focus areas when
it comes to what might be in store for twenty
twenty six, what we as hunters and anglers can influence
in twenty twenty six. So we're not going to be
talking about like some specific mine or some specific piece
of legislation that we need to fight against or support.

(02:41):
This is a little bit more general we speak about.
I'm kind of stealing a little bit of the thunder here,
but I'm going to tell you what the four main
categories are that we're going to get into. We're going
to discuss key things to understand about conservation funding in
twenty twenty six, key things to understand about public land management,
key things on the access to lands and waters, and

(03:03):
then finally some interesting things going on related to wildlife crossings,
fish crossings, connecting wildlife habitat of all types. Those are
the four kind of overarching categories that we're going to discuss.

Speaker 3 (03:16):
Chris and Devin help us do that.

Speaker 2 (03:18):
And a really important thing that I think we discuss here,
and that's I think hopefully going to be continued to
address throughout this entire year and year after year after year,
is not just what's going on there, but really what
can we do? How do we, as an average everyday
American hunter and angler actually influence change?

Speaker 3 (03:39):
How do we impact things?

Speaker 2 (03:40):
How do we make sure we are educated enough to
take action and know what to do that leads to
healthy wildlife populations, healthy fish populations, access to healthy accessible
public lands or quality private lands, having the opportunities to
go out there and do these things that we love
so much. That's a big part of what we discussed too,

(04:02):
is how do you actually influence change?

Speaker 3 (04:04):
How do you.

Speaker 2 (04:05):
Actually engage with your state agency, or your senator's office,
or your state representative, your national forest planning committee, whatever
it is. We discussed that. I think it's really important.
I think it will be useful, and that is how
I want us to kick off this new year, is
thinking about how we can make things better.

Speaker 3 (04:25):
Because we all have that opportunity.

Speaker 2 (04:27):
We all can make a difference, but it does take
us choosing to do so and then putting in that
work to make it happen. So I'm very excited that
twenty twenty six is here, that we get to kick
things off in this kind of way. I'm excited that
you are here with us. I appreciate it. So without
any further ado, let's get to my chat with Chris
Borgatti and Devin Ode from backcountry Hunters and Anglers.

Speaker 3 (04:55):
All right with me.

Speaker 2 (04:56):
Now on the line is Devin od and Chris Borgatti
of BHA.

Speaker 3 (05:01):
Welcome to the show, gentlemen, Thanks for.

Speaker 4 (05:03):
Having us appreciate it.

Speaker 2 (05:06):
Yeah, I'm excited for this conversation. I'm excited because when
this episode drops, it will be the new year. It
will be twenty twenty six, the first day of the
new year is the scheduled date for this to go live.
And we've just come off of a pretty crazy twelve months,
pretty tumultuous, pretty headline grabbing year. When it comes to

(05:30):
the things that the three of us care about, I
think most of our listeners too, wildlife, wild places, hunting
and fishing opportunities and access public lands, all the above.
How are you guys personally feeling coming off of a
year like this? You know, maybe you can kick us off, Chris.

(05:51):
I gotta believe that working in the conservation sector, working
in this line of business has been a wild ride.

Speaker 5 (05:58):
It definitely has to be. If it wasn't for the
fact that the hunting season eventually did come around, I
would be completely spent and exhausted because I was pretty
much there when when September hit. So to get back
in the woods, to get up in a tree to

(06:22):
get you know, the duck boat situated. All of those
things was the sort of you know, hey, this is
what this is why you do this, this is why
we've been going at a frenetic pace since January. And
you know it came at the right time. I'll say

(06:45):
it that way.

Speaker 3 (06:46):
Yeah, what about you devon?

Speaker 4 (06:49):
You know, I think an important disclaimer here is Chris
and I just both got off of our back country
weeks last week. So BHA is a policy where you
get an extra week of PTO as long as you
use it for hunting fishing five days in a row.

Speaker 3 (07:02):
So that's pretty great.

Speaker 4 (07:03):
We both, you know, are coming off that one. So
i'd say with riding high, you know, also spending some
time in a tree shooting some ducks. And you know,
if it wasn't for that, if you'd asked me a
week prior, I probably would have, you know, not had
the same bright outlook or or been as cheery after
getting revamped from public lands. But yeays, it was quite

(07:25):
you know, I would say tumultuous, just overwhelming of times.
But you know, I think when you get a chance
to get back out and realize why you're doing it,
and the importance of it all. It kind of quickly
fades away and gets you recharge and reset for another year.

Speaker 3 (07:42):
Yeah, Thank goodness for the outside.

Speaker 2 (07:46):
It is the ultimate rejuvenator, no doubt about that. So
when you look forward to twenty twenty six, do you
have a sense do you have any kind of prediction
is this going to be a repeat of twenty twenty
five with all the things we've just discussed, or do
you sense that maybe things will settle down and that

(08:06):
you guys will be able to get some sleep again
and the rest of us can kick back and get
bat and sassy again. What are you What do you
think on that front?

Speaker 3 (08:15):
Devin?

Speaker 4 (08:19):
I don't think it's possible to repeat this year, you know.
I think it's it's gonna look a lot different next year.
You know, I think things will will settle in a
little bit politically, you know, at the state level, it's
always it's always kind of a crapshoot that that stuff
seems to just kind of pop up all over the place,

(08:39):
and there's just so many different bills to wade through.
But you know, I would say we're gonna we're gonna
likely see some of the same themes but maybe some
of those themes sort of evolving understanding, you know how
things like you know, the big elephant in the room,
the public land sales from this summer, and BHA is

(09:00):
you know, united, we stand campaign United, we stand for
public lands. I think we're gonna see BHA is definitely
going to keep moving that forward. We're gonna double down there.
But I don't think we're going to see another senator
ly attempt to sell three million acres during budget reconciliation.
That being said, I think that will evolve, and it'll

(09:21):
be popping up in different areas in different ways potentially
with you know, looking at land transfers or looking at
smaller parcels, you know, the resource management planning process. And
I think we're gonna we're gonna see maybe not on
the same type of broad scale, but similar threats and

(09:45):
really important areas for hunters and anglers to stay engaged
in in the political process.

Speaker 2 (09:52):
Okay, And what about you, Chris, on your on your
side there, what are you sense coming down the line?

Speaker 5 (09:58):
Well, there are some things that aren't settled yet that
we really you know, had some serious call to actions
on last year that you know, the administration will be
sort of finalizing their position after sorting through public comment
and things like that. So we're going to be dealing
with some of that stuff again. So that's not completely

(10:21):
settled for sure. But I will say that the silver lining,
at least at the state level often that we've seen
in a bunch of different places is that state legislatures
and state officials they kind of want to push back
a little bit on some of the the more sort

(10:43):
of things we've kind of lost, or at least the
feeling of having lost control of certain things. So that said,
I think there's a willingness to sort of tackle tough
issues at the at the local level, and we saw
some of that last year, and I think we'll continue

(11:04):
to see that, uh in this in this new year
as well, So that in that respect, I think we're
gonna have some good opportunities to to to make some
really positive impacts at the at the state level.

Speaker 2 (11:18):
Okay, that's encouraging, and maybe that's a perfect place for
us to to kind of jump to next, which is,
you know, some specifics. What I really wanted to hopefully
cover here is is specific either threats coming in the
next year or opportunities coming the next year that hunters
and anglers should be watching for, should be paying attention to,

(11:40):
should be ready to take action on, because I think
one of the most important, well one of the greatest
overarching I think threats or challenges that we face is
is just people who care about wildlife and wild places
and these opportunities and these resources. Is the perpetual looming

(12:00):
cloud of bad stuff going on and we as individuals
feeling like we don't have any power or any influence
over them. Right, There's that There's always this threat of
that kind of feeling of apathy or helplessness to seep in.
But the antidote to that, I think is always action.
It's like, what can I do? How can I somehow

(12:21):
be involved? How can I do a little bit today
or next month or or anything like that. That seems
to be like this little bit of magic that if
you can access that it can change, you know, not
only change things on the ground, but just change things
like in your head. At least personally, I found that
to be the case. So what I'm really hoping we
can achieve here is is to understand what's coming, but

(12:41):
then also understand now what, like what does that mean
for me listening, how do I do something about one
of these things or four of these things or whatever
it is, So to kind of preview where I'm hoping
we can go. That's kind of how I want to
approach all this. So when I say all that, Chris,
and maybe we can kind of go back and forth.
I might just kind of pitch it to you, Chris

(13:01):
and the new Devin, and we can kind of go
back and forth and each of you can share with
me in us a handful of those top issues or
opportunities coming down the line that are top of mind
for you, and then that should be top of mind
for just hunters and anglers across the nation. So, Chris,
what's the first thing that you would say that we
need to be ready for, watching for and paying attention to.

Speaker 5 (13:25):
I think one that really provides is sort of a
something we have to pay attention to, but it's also
a real opportunity is related to conservation funding. And I
say that's a pretty high level. So I'm talking about
conservation funding at sort of the just overall state level
in terms of what might be used for land management

(13:47):
or land acquisition, but also for state fishing game agencies.
A lot of state fishing game agencies are really in
a tight spot in terms of budgeting and there's a
lot of opportunities there that you know, we as hunters

(14:07):
and anglers, as the main constituents for these for these agencies,
have to really kind of step up and be a
constructive voice around. Sometimes it comes in the form of
changes and license fees. There's a lot of there's a
lot of state agencies that haven't reckoned with that change
in many many years. Others are trying to find new

(14:31):
and different avenues to create new funding streams. The one
thing we have to keep in mind is, I think,
is the fact that just operating costs have steadily increased
for state agencies. Pensions or health insurance, all of these
things that they have to provide for their employees, like

(14:53):
those have increased dramatically over the years. And that's just
that's just the like keep the doors open kind of costs, right,
that's not even like money on the ground putting people
where they need to be, managing wildlife habitat all of
these things. So I think that is a really big

(15:14):
issue from the agency level to the state level, and
there are some connectivity. There is some connectivity to federal
funding and and and I think a lot of the
states are just trying to find ways to be to
sort of ride any future inconsistencies and funding streams. So

(15:41):
it's a good opportunity there. And there are some creative
ways that are being proposed, some kind of controversial, like
for the you know, like in the for instance, having
like access fees paid for uh, non hunting and angling
members of the community to access state lands, for instance,

(16:04):
Whereas there are other sort of less controversial ones where uh,
we've got these data centers, for instance, popping up all
over the country. Could there be a nexus found in
terms of conservation and like a small tax leviedon energy
use or land area use that that could be generated

(16:29):
from these for these data center operators. And there's a
there's a couple efforts around the country to do just that.
So there are opportunities, but again it's going to take
our community being engaged in understanding the challenges the state
state agencies are are facing.

Speaker 2 (16:51):
If you guess heard, if either one of you heard,
if there's any movement on recovering America's Wildlife Act, if
that's something that's going to get reintroduced and I've heard
rumors of it, I've heard talk that they want to,
but do we have any sense of where that actually
stands right now? And for folks that aren't familiar, could
could one of you explain what that is and what
that could do if it ever passed.

Speaker 4 (17:14):
I'm I want to say that a couple of months ago.

Speaker 6 (17:18):
I kind of a colleague or a partner mentioned that
they thought RABA Recovering America's Wild went Back still had
you know, a really strong chance and was something that
you know, they really wanted to put resources into, and
that was something that gave me optimism.

Speaker 4 (17:35):
You know that there is there is very much hope
there for that particular legislation. You know, Chris and I
both work more on the state level, so we're not
you know, we're one step removed from what's happening, you know,
in DC, and and you know kind of where where
a lot of those conversations are on reintroduction and how

(17:55):
people are sort of posturing there. But you know, I'd
say we're definitely optimistic. It's a really critical bill that
you know, directs a significant amount of funding to state
and tribes, state agencies tribes to basically keep endangered species
kind of out of the emergency room, and so you've

(18:16):
got you know, threatening endangered species and that is a
big part of that funding. But there are so many
layers there to conservation benefits in rawa that impact fish
and game species that we all pursue that are just
critical and so you know, making sure that we're allocating

(18:36):
those resources and the right way to promote habitat and
can serve you know, just kind of like these broader ecosystems.
We understands as hunters that that's you know, critical for
maintaining those game populations that we rely on.

Speaker 2 (18:50):
Yeah, and if if if the agencies have to sync
money into endangered species work, that's those are dollars that
are not going towards you know, fishing game maybe that
we would hope they're spending more active time restoring for
the for the things we're particularly interested in too. So uh, yeah,
it seems like if that could ever pass, that would
be a massive funding boost for these agencies to do

(19:12):
important stuff that helps. You know, whether you like butterflies
or big whitetail bucks, it's gonna it's gonna be a
good thing.

Speaker 3 (19:20):
Chris.

Speaker 2 (19:20):
To your point, though, one thing I'm curious, like when
it comes to state budgets and the funding that you
know that Michigan gets or Massachusetts gets, you know, where
does where do we come in? What's the opportunity you
mentioned there's a little bit of an opportunity there. I
honestly don't really know how how.

Speaker 3 (19:38):
Would I do that?

Speaker 2 (19:38):
How might I be able to to to influence that
side of things in my home state?

Speaker 5 (19:44):
Sure, so every state has a slightly different budget process, UH,
but typically the governor is going to have their sort
of version of the budget and that's oftentimes a place
where you know, the public can engage. So like for instance,

(20:06):
like let me, I'll give you a local situation example,
there is an instance where UH state agency might give licenses,
free licenses to senior citizens or to people with certain
physical handicaps or something along those lines. When they give

(20:28):
those free licenses, those are of course coming out of
the budget of the state agency. They can't count on
those the money that would be generated from those licenses.
So there are some efforts in some states to go
to the state legislature or to go to the governor
and ask hey, can we get compensated for these licenses?

(20:49):
It's going to be maybe up to upwards of a
million dollars depending on the population, maybe even even more.
And so having having sort of pressure from the hunting
and fishing community to sort of say, hey, can you
governor can you reimburse these licenses or fully fund this

(21:14):
land acquisition fund or set aside a budget like is
the case in a situation in Ohio right now set
aside a certain chunk of money to allow for a
very large land acquisition that is on the table right now,
so the public can engage in that process and pressure,

(21:35):
you know, pressure the governor's office, pressure state lawmakers to
to sort of prioritize issues that are important to us.
And yeah, it's not as it's not as sexy or
it might not be as like motivational in terms of

(21:55):
like the charge to take action as like a threatening
issue or piece of ledge that might take away certain opportunities,
for instance, but it's an important step in the process.

Speaker 2 (22:07):
So one thing that I've always been kind of, i
don't know, surprised by or disappointed and has been. And
maybe this is just what I see in my lone
little world. So maybe this isn't the case everywhere, but
it seems like any time I see Michigan any talk
in my state or some of the other states have
spent time, and when they start talking about raising license costs,

(22:28):
people just throw an absolute fit and get so upset
and say, how dare you raise my license from ten
dollars to fifteen dollars or twenty bucks to twenty three
bucks or whatever it might be. And I've always thought, like, gosh,
like this is it's a bargain as it is, whether
you're paying ten bucks for a hunting license or fifty
bucks for a hunting license or one hundred and fifty
bucks for a hunting license. What we get to do

(22:49):
out there, the protein we get to bring home, the
experience we get to have. I mean, I would pay
a lot of money for that, and then it goes
to such an amazing cause, it goes to perpetuating these
things that we care so much about. Again, I would
donate a lot of money to make sure that's the case.
And I know there's a lot of other people who
love these things just as much as we do. Why

(23:10):
do people get in such a hissy fit about a
ten dollars fee increase or thirty dollars fee increase or
whatever it is. Is that Am I just seeing that
uniquely or is that like every state everyone kind of
has that loud. I don't know if it's a minority
or majority or whatever it is. But is that changing?
Is that going to have to change to deal with

(23:31):
these budget issues?

Speaker 3 (23:31):
Chris?

Speaker 5 (23:33):
Is not that it's not a unique situation. We hear
and feel and experience that everywhere, and I think in
part it is something that a lot of state agencies
have sort of showed that reality, unfortunately, and they did
that because of the separation between the state agency, or
at least more importantly, the people who work there and

(23:56):
the constituents. We've talked about that you and I have
talked about this before. You know you're working for Wildlife
Tour created this opportunity where a bunch of people got
to meet a large number of state employees who came
out on their day off, some of them were on

(24:16):
the clock and work side by side, And just the
humanization that occurred in that moment was huge because just
built relationships and when you recognize that these people are dedicated,
the vast majority of the people are dedicated civil servants
who aren't just serving the people of the state or

(24:41):
the commonwealth. But they're also serving the wildlife like professionally
and in many cases at a pretty significant sacrifice. And
when I think it's important and as I've come to
do this job and just work in so many different
states and meet so many different people, is so the
vast majority we have some great uh state employees. And

(25:02):
I think if people listened and understood and had that
better connection with their state agencies and what they're trying
to accomplish and the challenges that they face managing budgets,
managing the politics at the state house, I think they'd
have a they'd be a bit more understanding to the
need of of you know, of increases in small increases

(25:26):
or incremental increases and license fees, because to your point,
like we do have a we do get some pretty great,
like life altering experiences out of these opportunities.

Speaker 2 (25:49):
I'd love to take a look at what the average
American spends a year on coffee or something like that,
like would you be willing and maybe not coffee because
people need their coffee, but food or whatever. The amount
of money we spent on something trivial, it really doesn't
matter all that much. I'm sure, it outweighs what we
spent on hunting licenses by leaps and bounds, so we

(26:12):
could we can spend that money. If we can spend
that money on a Starbucks, we can certainly spend that
money on a deer hunting license or whatever it is
that the helps, you know, the thing we love more
than anything else continue. I don't know, Devin, do you
feel I'm sure you're feeling some of that out West too.

Speaker 4 (26:28):
Yeah, But I will say, you know, in New Mexico,
we had SP five last year moved through the state legislature,
and that was a big bill that had a few
different angles to it, but one of them was a
significant increase in fees kind of across the board. It
had been over twenty years and the agency was really
like desperate at this point, you know, it had kind

(26:48):
of reached critical point where they had to do something.
So this fee increase was I would say it's pretty
well received generally. I mean, I think you're always going
to have that contingent that is going to resist any
type of fee increase. But I think hunters recognize, like, Okay,
it's it's been the same for a very long time.

(27:10):
There's no you know, staggering increase with inflation. Everything else
is going up, but my hunting fees have been the same.
And so that bill was actually coupled with a commission
reform bill, and that's just like a whole another cant
worms quagmire. I think that, you know, we will probably
see more of next year general efforts to reform game commissions.

(27:32):
But you know, I was, I was enthusiastic and optimistic
at the response in New Mexico regarding fees, and I
think we've seen I've seen in a couple instances there,
you know, maybe a slightly more willingness to just understanding that, like,
you know, this has got to happen one way or another,
and hunters just kind of with pride shouldering that burden.

(27:55):
But it's certainly not everyone marching in that same direction.
So I think there's a lot of education that that
comes in there as well.

Speaker 3 (28:04):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (28:05):
Okay, So so keeping the ball in your court, Devin,
what might be the first issue or challenge or opportunity
that you'd like to bring up?

Speaker 4 (28:14):
Yeah, I want to kind of devetail off of what
Chris said, and you know, I think the big one
that we're always looking at that I think when you
look at really what impacts hunting and fishing at a
grand scale, it's always you know, the encroaching development, industrialization, sprawl,

(28:37):
like these are these big broad themes, but you know,
when we're talking about how that impacts us, I think
just looking at you know, maybe a subset of that
conservation funding is related to connectivity and how that plays out.
You know, there are there is funding at the federal level,
but you know, it kind of remains to be seen

(28:59):
what happens next year if we're going to have you know,
the Wildlife Crossings Pilot Program get you know, reauthorized, or
if we're going to get more funding for like fish
Passage and you know projects of that nature through like
Noah or Fish and Wildlife Service. And so I think
there's these federal big buckets of funding that we're going

(29:22):
to need to stay engaged and really be advocating kind
of across the board, across the nation for getting these
projects funded because they're just very easy wins that everyone
could should be able to agree on. I mean particular,
when we're talking about wildlife crossing projects, there's a great
public safety component. You can really relate this to people

(29:43):
that are not in the traditional hunting and fishing space,
and I think you can build super you know, really
large broad tents to accomplish these shared objectives. And you know,
I have worked on a wildlife crossing project in southern California,
the Eye eight Penins are Bighorn sheet crossing project, and
I will tell you there it is just a tremendous

(30:03):
amount of legwork to stand these things up, and it
starts at the state level. And so when we're talking
about that funding, we need to be making sure that
we're advocating for those budgets for these state agencies to
be able to do the on the groundwork, the callers,
the data collection, because that is what informs these projects

(30:24):
and that those are like the major impediments to getting
these broader connectivity efforts funded. So just building on Chris's
point there, you know, when we're making those cases, and
I think the way we can make those cases is
just by building that relationship with your you know, representative
in your district, right because then they're going to take

(30:45):
that when it comes time to vote on the governor's budget,
they're going to hopefully be you know, sharing what they're
hearing from constituents, and so you know, how you engage
is at that ground level, making sure that you do
you have a relationship with your representative at the state
level and of course the federal level as well, but
making those you know, priorities clear from the beginning and

(31:08):
then emphasizing them throughout the process. Stopping on the phone,
Hey just want you to know, and I really care
about hunting, fishing, land access, connectivity, really want you to
prioritize this when it comes time to appropriate funds at
the at the legislature. And so I think, you know,
if we can bolster some of that funding at the

(31:29):
state level and keep some of these connectivity and wild
life crossing projects and fish project fish fish passage projects coming,
I think we're gonna be able to weather the storm
whether or not at the federal level. You know, if
funding ends up getting it cut, hopefully we can make
it back up at the state level, or you know,

(31:49):
we can double down and really just communicate the importance
of that at the federal level as well.

Speaker 2 (31:55):
So I sense that the whole idea of why life
crossing projects and things like that maybe gets talked about
a little bit more out west, But I wonder if
the folks on the east part of the eastern side
of the country maybe just aren't quite as familiar.

Speaker 3 (32:09):
With what why this is needed or what this looks like.

Speaker 2 (32:13):
Can you expand a little bit on that, Devin just explaining,
you know, what are these projects actually tackling, What are
they actually doing on the ground, Why is this actually important?
I think when people understand it, it's like, oh, yeah,
this makes a ton of sense. But I'm not sure
all that many people truly understand what's happening.

Speaker 4 (32:32):
Yeah, you know, so I think to break it down
for a lot of particularly for big game species you
know out west, is there's just a lot of seasonal
migrations and movement required to access that habitat. I mean
a lot of it's related to water, but it's also
you know, winter range and making sure that you have
that forage available across kind of like broader slots of land.

(32:56):
And that's going through public private and you've got you know,
may youre eight lane interstates that have been put up
in between you know, where traditional migration routes were, and so,
you know, part of it is just trying to address
you know, declining deers and the number of big game,

(33:16):
animals that are just hit that are hitting cars you know,
every year is astounding and so you know, that seems
like a very easy win for one for motorists because
you have fatalities all the time. You've got a huge
cost to society just to deal with collisions relating to
wildlife and a risk to to just the general people

(33:38):
on the on the roads. But also when we're looking
at making sure that wildlife can adapt to changing pressures,
so whether that's development, whether that's you know, related to
changing conditions on the ground with forage, with invasive species,
availability of water. Having connective between these various landscapes public land,

(34:02):
private land is really critical for those species to be
able to adapt. And I think to distribute pressure, even
from a hunting perspective, you know, to make sure that
animals are not just going to pull up on private
land in some of these areas where you have higher pressure.
And so you know, the one example I'll give you

(34:22):
in sort of the microcosm there for the big one
sheep crossing project that we're working on, is you've got
sheep that come in and they actually have their lambs
in between two lanes of freeway and they come back
and forth all the time because we've built from major
major thoroughfare through this you know, long standing route, movement

(34:43):
route where the sheep moved to kind of access water
and forage at different times of the year, and so
you just have a bunch of sheep that are getting hit.

Speaker 5 (34:52):
All the time.

Speaker 4 (34:53):
Use lambs rams and this is something that we have
the color data. So since all that infrastructure was done,
now you know, we've been able to secure planning at
the state level for the planning and design, which there's
a huge amount that goes into permitting and designing these
structures and that's where a lot of the costs comes from.
And then hopefully you know, you move into implementation soon.

(35:15):
But you use directional fencing to funnel wildlife over a
crossing structure so that they're you know, moving and crossing
over free. We had a safe point and you know,
we're not having those collisions anymore.

Speaker 5 (35:29):
That I was just gonna say that work is taking
place in the East as well. How it looks is
a lot different. We might not have the big dramatic
overpasses or wildlife overpasses. It can be achieved through directional
fences culverts. It's amazing what a white tail will tolerate

(35:50):
in terms of going through a tiny little place and
other critters for short. So we've we've done a lot
of work in the Mid Atlantic the North East related
to wildlife crossings, habitat connectivity, and we we've been trying
to take a holistic, kind of a holistic approach. I mean,

(36:13):
obviously big game animals are are are something that naturally
is interesting to to our our membership, but but also
you know, uh, fish passages, uh, amphibians and and uh
you know, other other types of of of wildlife. So

(36:33):
there is an appetite for here in the East, and
we're trying to find those and support not just legislation
that makes sense, but we've also been trying to support
research and research funding for that type of to try
to figure out where the best places are.

Speaker 2 (36:51):
So yeah, it's it's fascinating stuff. And you know, as
you alluded to, Devin, increasingly important given the sprawl, given
the development never wear, habitat is is getting increasingly fragmented,
broken up into smaller and smaller pieces. Movements are blocked.
This stuff's it's so important and fascinating. If anyone is

(37:13):
interested in learning more there's a great book called Crossings
by Ben Goldfarb. Highly recommend it, all about this stuff.
Another really neat thing. And you guys can tell me
if if I'm wrong on this, but I'm pretty sure
that my sense is accurate, which is that you know,
funding and work and effort behind these wildlife crossing projects,

(37:36):
whether it's research or actual you know, building these structures.
It's got pretty bipartisan support. This is something that's not
just supported by you know, traditional grainy environmental groups. This
is something that Republicans are getting behind, and you know,
rural landowners are getting behind, and you know, farming families,
different folks like that. This is a win for a
lot of different people. Like you said, there's the whole

(37:57):
thing with just cars, and say, right, this is just
an issue that impacts everyday people too.

Speaker 3 (38:04):
So there's a pretty big.

Speaker 2 (38:05):
Tent that can get behind this when so many things
seem fractured by partisanship, whether it be on the state
level or federal level. In a in a kind of
world right now where it seems like a lot of
this stuff's getting smoked on funding, this might be one
of those unique places where we can get support from
both sides of the aisle from all sorts of different
types of folks, right.

Speaker 4 (38:27):
Yeah, well, I absolutely agree, And I think one piece
that I like to point to is Secretarial Order three
three six two, which came out during the first Trump administration,
which you know prioritizes big game migration corridors and winter
range and that has helped, I think, particularly with the

(38:47):
partnership at the state level and state Wildlife Action Plans
and those two kind of prioritizing the importance of understanding
where we need to make these investments. So three three
six two has helped to channel like huge amount of
funding and work into you know, on the ground projects,
whether it's fence removals or bitter brush plantings, and like

(39:08):
that's the other piece of that connectivity puzzle that I always,
you know, want to make sure that we don't forget
and that we advocate for and that is a huge
part of BHA's work is making sure that there is
that funding to do the work on the ground. That
is critical to making sure, you know, we can have
a lot of that crossing structure and we can have
public land, but if it's all cheat gas and all

(39:29):
the valuable forge and everything is burned out and been replaced,
then you know it's really not serving that function. And
so so three three sixty is helped to funnel a
huge amount of funding into that type of work that
you know, BHA and our partner organizations have you done,
and a huge amount of volunteers been able to participate
in as well.

Speaker 2 (39:48):
I might be getting a little bit ahead of ourselves,
or at least in my initial thought of how this
might all go. But both of you have talked about
the importance of advocating at the state level for some
of this funding and some of these projects, and we
spend a pretty decent amount of time, We have spent
a decent amount of time over past years and podcasts
talking about advocating at a federal level. Me and Cale

(40:11):
just had a great conversation earlier this year all about that,
how to become a more effective citizen advocate, you know,
developing relationships with your senators or your representative, or doing
these different things on the federal level. But is there
anything unique to operating at the state level. I'll be honest,

(40:32):
I've not done a good job of being in touch
with my state representative.

Speaker 3 (40:35):
I'm in touch with my federal but like on.

Speaker 2 (40:38):
The state side, or you know, having a relationship with
your game commission or anything like that.

Speaker 3 (40:45):
What are some of the unique things we should be
thinking about when trying to operate there?

Speaker 2 (40:51):
And I know you spoke a little bit to this, Chris,
but I'd love it a little bit more more tactically
if either one of you could expand on the unique
pressure points or leverage opportunities, or the unique sides of
developing influence within the state structure, whether it be on
the fishing game side or state funding, et cetera. You know, Chris,

(41:12):
do you want to tackle that first?

Speaker 4 (41:13):
Sure?

Speaker 5 (41:14):
I mean I was. The first step is to understand
whether what type of cycle your state operates on how
the state legislature works. Is it a short term, you know,
a few months session that most of the business gets
stuff taking care of that short window of time. Is
it a two year cycle like some states have. Once

(41:39):
you sort of can identify that, then you know the
timetable your your state electeds are going to be working on,
and from there you can kind of find out when
the best time you might or how how you might
want to approach that that lawmaker to find, you know,
to open up the lines of communication. So I think

(42:01):
that's an important step just to sort of get a
sense of all right, like I've got a short window
of time, I need to get their attention, and that
might change your tactics. If you've got a little bit
longer period of time to work with, then you can
do a little bit more kind of relationship building and
take a more tactful approach to maybe thank that person

(42:23):
for some work they did on an issue that you
know that was important to you in another session, and
use that as an opportunity to start a dialogue on
you know, what's important to you in this next or
in the current session. I think those types of things
building that relationship is so critical. And the states in

(42:45):
which we are most effective as a Grasters organization is
one where we have a steady presence not just around
like the key issues or like the real sort of
important issues, but all a lot of different issues, just
so we can establish a relationship or rapport with with

(43:05):
state officials, lawmakers. I think that that is really really important.
We have a couple I'm thinking of a few people,
a few members that that make an annual appointment. They
just sometimes that takes place at a local coffee shop
because they're members of the community. Sometimes it's a trip
down to the state House, and sometimes it's just a

(43:28):
conversation with an aid or an assistant, but it's something
they do on an annual basis and that pays dividends
UH for US as an organization, for them as a constituent,
and at the same time, you know, it's it's good
for the for the elected official as well because they
get a get a sense of what's happening out there

(43:49):
that you know, they wouldn't otherwise get because the reality
is they are dealing with probably a lot of different issues,
a lot of different constituents, a lot of different bills,
and you know, a state like Michigan, a state like Massachusetts,
a state like California, there are a lot of bills

(44:11):
and there's a lot of passion behind those behind those bills.
So we're going to keep that in mind and recognize
that we're fighting for time and we have to be
respectful of that and you know, be constructive when we
we have that as those opportunities.

Speaker 3 (44:27):
Yeah, would you add anything, Devion, I think I.

Speaker 4 (44:31):
Think that was really well put. The only thing I'd
add is just these legislators are far more accessible than
you would imagine, and they're not. They don't often hear
from their constituents, and so just don't you know, undervalue
your voice there. And I think reaching out and developing
that relationship you can have a conversation that can help

(44:52):
to influence their perspective. And hearing from three, four or
five constituents on an issue, in many cases and in
many states, is significant. So, you know, I think, particularly
at the state level, like your voice can really carry Yeah,
maybe even a little bit farther.

Speaker 3 (45:09):
Yeah, that's a great point.

Speaker 5 (45:12):
I mean we've probably all been in hearings. I mean
I've been in public hearings, whether they be a you know,
a state, a state commission on a particular series they're
handling a series of bills, or like a regulatory hearing,
a you know, fish and Wildlife board or something. I've
been in the room where I've seen a single voice
completely shift the outcome of you know, of a of

(45:36):
a decision, and I always, like, I always try to
impress that that reality to people, like your voice can
and will make a difference so often.

Speaker 2 (45:49):
Well, I think an important thing to remember is that
in the case of most of these people, making these decisions,
placing these votes. They don't have a firsthand understanding of
that any of this. They're simply taking some you know,
talking points from somebody else, who got them from somebody else,
who got them from somebody else and said, hey, just

(46:09):
just say this or just make this vote because it
fits this narrative or it's it's the thing. They don't
have any kind of real firsthand perspective and or thoughts
for a different point of view. So if you can
be that, if you can simply be a real resource,
you can really help these people, especially if you start,
you know, weeks or months or years ahead of a

(46:30):
key inflection point, and then when there is a major
issue and they are faced with an important decision, they
now know, oh, you know Chris from down the road,
or Chris that stops in once a year to talk
about hunting and fishing issues, he's actually someone who probably
has a perspective that could help me at make this
decision and be a little bit more informed.

Speaker 3 (46:49):
That's a huge thing.

Speaker 2 (46:51):
That's that's a huge thing. So I think we need
to remember that. To your point, Devin, we can make
a difference. There's they're accessible and probably in many cases
open to other ideas. So continuing down the line, Chris,
what's your next big one?

Speaker 5 (47:11):
Another big one I think would be public land management,
just again kind of keeping it to the state level,
so state forest wildlife management areas. We've seen a lot
of new voices coming into the conversation when it comes

(47:32):
to the management of these lands. There's in a lot
of Eastern states, for instance, that there's been a push
to establish these things that are oftentimes referred to as
old growth reserves, essentially creating stands of wildlife management areas
or state forests that do not get touched in terms

(47:55):
of habitat management or wildlife management for wildlife management purposes.

Speaker 4 (48:00):
UH.

Speaker 5 (48:00):
And in many cases they go so far as to
trying to uh take management control, soul management control away
from the state agency and create new commissions and boards
to manage these areas. And if this was to come
to pass, those types of initiatives, especially as they relate

(48:23):
to lands that are that are were intentionally purchase purchased
for the purpose of hunting, fishing, and wildlife habitat, is
definitely concerning to us. And they have evolved their messaging
for these things to to include things like biodiversity and
climate change and carbon sequestration and uh and so to

(48:51):
it just to we were just talking about. You know,
these are things that might be on the radar for
some of these state officials. They might not have full
grasp of all the concepts and how it all sort
of plays out and what the management charge of these
lands are. So it requires a very deliberate approach when

(49:11):
it comes to sort of educating lawmakers around these subjects.
And we have to be very clear and make the
distinction of why these lands and the work that the
state agencies are doing in order totain certain types of habitat,
whether it be early successional or sure types of forest.

Speaker 3 (49:34):
Whatever it might be.

Speaker 5 (49:35):
So it really creates these really challenging situations because even
in some of these situations they've called for the exclusion
of hunters and anglers not just from the conversation and
the management, but from potentially from the actual areas themselves.
So and that's just one example of like a land
management type of scenario. You know, there's all also issues

(50:00):
with the management as it relates to other forms of
recreation and whether that might be trail building or you know,
things along those lines and These all have impacts on wildlife,
they all have impacts on opportunity, They could have impact
on access. So land management issues at the state level

(50:23):
is something that we definitely are watching. And the challenges
and the situations really change from state to state, so
you know, again it's one of those hyper local type
of issues sometimes.

Speaker 2 (50:48):
Okay, so there's there's state level public land type management processes,
and then there's the federal kind of corollary, which would
be like resource manage plans or national forest management plans,
whatever it might be. How should citizens engage on those

(51:10):
what's the you know, I would imagine it's an agency
by agency program, But can you talk to us a
little bit about what how we might be able to
figure out the right times to engage on those things?
How to engage on those things? You know, Like you said, Chris,
a lot of stuff's complicated. It's really easy to say
don't sell public lands. That's a very simple, easy to

(51:31):
understand narrative. Easy to call someone and say, don't sell
my public lands. It's much harder to have a clear,
nuanced understanding of something like, hey, how do we manage
these things best? Like even the example you brought up
is complicated and complex, right, It's like, well, yeah, we
we need to have actively managed forests in some places,

(51:52):
but maybe there are some places that should be in
a more mature state, and maybe there are some places
there should be logging, and maybe there are some places
that shouldn't have logging, and maybe they're there are some
places that should be protected in X way, and there's
other places that should be in why way. Right, this
is like there's a lot of gray areas when it
comes to management and priorities and all of that.

Speaker 3 (52:14):
So how do you go about influencing any of that.

Speaker 5 (52:19):
Well, there's public hearings around the management of properties or
the establishment of a management plan that's going to be
used to manage the next say decade or whatever, like
it might not be you know, it's not it's not
like an issue like selling off of public plans like
you mentioned. It's an issue that is going to have

(52:41):
that he's going to have a long term impact, but
it might not draw the same attention. And so it's
just a matter of really kind of plugging in to
the state agencies, plugging in to organization like PHA who's
watching and engaged in these things, or other NGO and
and so that when there is a call to action,

(53:03):
when there is a public hearing, when there is a
need to sort of reach out and make a connection
to in a two a decision maker, that those voices
can can come out. This is you know, it's it's
the thing we always kind of come back to, is
that there's sort of there is a responsibility as for

(53:25):
us as hunters and anglers to sort of stay abreast
of all this information, to learn, to continue to learn.
I think it also helps us when when we're in
the field and doing what we love most. But it
also makes us just a more rounded, a more rounded conservationist.

(53:49):
And so it's it's just a matter of sort of
stay in touch with these things, raising your voice when
when needed. You know, this is not something that typically
happens on an annual basis in terms of management plans. However,
there are there is legislation sometimes that can uh usert
the management plans, like the like the forest reserve type

(54:11):
of scenario that I just laid out. So it's you know,
it is a lot to sort of stay at stay
on top of, and uh, you know that's why I think,
you know, it's sort of self serving a little bit
to sort of mention it, but to plug into two
other con plug into a conservation organizations, just so you

(54:33):
know someone else is also keeping an eye on this
kind of stuff.

Speaker 2 (54:36):
Yeah, and I got to believe, you know, for some
people this is going to be a case by case basis.
But there's some people especially I think national forests or
big state forest is easier to to think about when you,
you know, might live somewhere where, Hey, like, my entirety
of my outdoor access and my public access is dependent
on the Hiawatha National Forest or the yeah, the whatever

(54:58):
Traverse City state for a store, the national you know,
gallut And National Forest in Montana, whatever it is. Like,
if if there's a place that's near and dear to
your heart into your activities, it probably doesn't make sense
to to start to understand when do these resource management
plans or forest management plans start, you know, get when
do they start being debated, discussed, work done? Who do

(55:20):
I who do you need to know to be you know,
heard on those things? You know, what's what's the line?
If you're not at the table, you're on the menu.
I think this is that's true for everything we're talking
about but it's definitely true when it comes to these
management plans, right.

Speaker 5 (55:36):
Yeah, And I'll say too, there's a bit of responsibility
that that does fall on the state agencies or the
the land management organization, whether it's like this your state
force entity or you know, conservation department. However it works
for your particular state, Well, they're mandated to sort of
say that they're gonna like their management plan is up

(55:57):
for for for conversation, for public comment. They also have
to be better about explaining the why the why they're
doing things. And because so oftentimes, let's take for an instance,
where there might be a WMA that at one point
in time in the history of this say forest, it

(56:18):
might have been like a pine barrens type of habitat,
and so the state might go and take effort, maybe
do a controlled burn and do some different habitat work
to restore that pine barrens. But if they don't articulate
sort of the why, the process, what they're doing, other
members of the community when they visit these locations that

(56:39):
are important to many people, not just hunters and anglers,
they might not be ready for what isn't what they
see the trucks, the saws, the fire, the smoke, all
that sort of stuff, because sometimes these projects take a
long time, and if they don't articulate what they're trying
to achieve and the steps that are require to get

(57:00):
to that objective, then you know, we're left kind of
having to sort of, you know, have a little bit
tougher uphill battle, if you will. So I think it's
important to sort of, you know, ask our state agencies
to sort of explain better and to do a little
bit more outward work publicly as to what they're trying

(57:22):
to achieve and how they plan on too.

Speaker 2 (57:26):
Yeah, with with public land being such a massive part
of the landscape out west, Devin, I got to imagine
this whole management side of things is a big part
of your world. Would you would you have anything to add?

Speaker 4 (57:38):
Yeah, to build on those great points Chris made, you know,
I think, and trying to look ahead a little bit
about you know, into the crystal ball and what we're
potentially going to be seeing. You know, I think there
are some big common opportunities, you know, besides trying to
track and understand what's happening, you know, with the resource

(57:59):
management planning process in your particular area, you know, there's
some big national initiatives that that we're grappling with, one
of those being, you know, the repeal of the roadless Rule.
Another one just kind of broader again in that same
sort of vein, is looking at you know, travel management
and how we might see some big changes and movement

(58:22):
there on on how we manage you know, motorized use
in national forests and and these are you know, pretty
unwieldy when you try to think about it the grand
scale for the nation and for an individual kind of
as you ask Mark like, so, how do you weigh
in here? What's your voice? What's your role? You know,

(58:43):
what we have been doing is is soliciting stories from
our membership and our constituents in these particular areas. So
we've overlaid some GIS resources, you know, where what's a
roadless area and trying to break down some of that
just to you know, so when you're doing you're scouting,
or when you're you know, looking at where you typically hunt,
you can say, I have a personal story here, and

(59:06):
I think that is is the lane that we're really
encouraging folks to try and lean into. Is the power
of like your own story, your own pictures, your own videos,
run these inventory roadless areas, your stories being out there walking,
you know, five miles into the back country whatever it is,
and having some dude on his z bike zip by

(59:26):
in a you know, non motorized area and e bikes
is a whole separate one. You know, we can give
you a thousand things to look at, but I'll try
not to go down too many rabbit holes. I just
think that, you know, it's going to be really important
for for folks to one be be tracking those timelines,
so like paying attention to your conservation organizations that are
that are tracking these things. Roadless we're probably going to

(59:49):
see a comment opportunity sometime around March or in the springtime,
and travel management might be a little bit later in
the year, maybe around August. But you know, weighing in
with with your personal connection to the land, the big
bull that you killed, or you know, whatever it is
that you like to do out on those public lands,

(01:00:09):
those are the narratives that I think will have the
most weight. And being in this constituency of hunters and anglers,
we are uniquely positioned right now to be able to
influence policy by just telling it how it is and
saying this is this is where I go hunt and fish.
This is the value that I see in these lands.
This is why I want to be providing this context

(01:00:31):
for legislators so that they understand when they're making these
big decisions, that they can connect it to the ground,
to the uses. And so I think that's the strategy there, right,
That's how you can kind of make your voice carry
a little bit further and influence some of these bigger, burlier,
unwieldy land management type decisions.

Speaker 2 (01:00:51):
Yeah, you mentioned the Travel Management Plan situation. I think
a lot of folks now understand what the roadless Rule
is is and what's going on with that. I don't
think as many people know about the Travel Management Plan
possible update or roll back, whatever that's going to be.
Can you can you give folks a quick rundown of
what that might mean, what that could lead to, why

(01:01:13):
that's worth paying attention to.

Speaker 4 (01:01:16):
Yeah, so this one is kind of developing. We've seen
some comments from the administration that they're going to be
looking to basically modify or roll back the two thousand
and five Travel Management Rule. And so what this basically is,
to break it down, is, you know, you have various
areas in your forests, in public lands that are designated

(01:01:41):
as you know, motorized non motorized. You've got specific regulations
on trails and and what uses are allowed and what aren't.
You know, I think that this has helped to balance
some of those multiple uses, right BJA. And you know,
most many concerts organizations we work with have a nuanced

(01:02:02):
perspective there. Right, there's a you know, a time and
place for motorized access and and that's fantastic, and we
use that time and place for for ohvs and and
those are are fun to get on. But there's also
the importance and the significance of those backcountry areas that
do require a little bit more respect and work to

(01:02:23):
get to and to appreciate. And so what we're we're
seeing as indication that, like we're there's going to be
some shifts there and uh you know, potentially some expansion
of motorized access into some of these previously non motorized areas.
And the reason why that's significant is one, I mean,
back country wouldn't be back country, but we just drive

(01:02:45):
in there and park. Uh So just core to the
ethos of what BHA is is about finding that solace
and getting out there and and really like putting the
work in. But the other impact there is, you know,
when we increase pressure and access us and make it
easier to access some of these more remote areas, we're
likely to see increased negative impacts on our game species

(01:03:08):
and that and you know, just punching roads into the
back country there are, and increasing motorized access in the
back country. There are all sorts of you know, trickle
down impacts there for uh that have been well documented
for you know, migration for the health of different herds
of al kadeer, and then also sedimentation into streams for

(01:03:31):
you know, fisheries and risk of fires as people are driving.
You know, fires are more likely to start in your road.
So there's all these different angles there. And again I
think the well, we'll see what comes of this, but
I think the opportunity is there to work with a
broad variety of stakeholders. There's a number of you know,

(01:03:52):
kind of motorized recreation groups that have come out opposed
to that because there is a good balance right now
and they they're all our gains and conversations that have
been made that are you know, getting people together in
a room and understanding, Okay, well, where does motorized recreation
make sense and where we want to limit that? And
I think we don't want to throw all that hard

(01:04:13):
work and all those conversations out, and certainly there's probably
an opportunity to improve that. Well, you know, stick our
heads in the sand there, but I want to make
sure that that that we're not throwing it all away
and then we're working to improve and have those you know,
broad stakeholders driven conversations to make that happen.

Speaker 2 (01:04:29):
Yeah, okay, So I feel like we have time for
one last big picture issue or opportunity, and I think
that that opportunity goes to you, Devin, You've got one
more if you have another one you want to talk about.
Do we have any final issue or opportunity you want
to want to wrap this up with.

Speaker 4 (01:04:49):
I mean, yeah, we got We could go on for days,
so we'll keep it to your time time limit here,
you know, I think the one that I'll try to
to a bit of a broad brush here and then
we can zero in a bit. But just looking at access, right,
we can't hunt fish if we can't get there and
we don't have access, and so I'll give you kind

(01:05:11):
of like the land and the water components of that
that I think we're likely to see a lot of
movement uh next year in legislatures, particularly at the state level,
and that is looking at navigable waters access, stream access,
and also corner crossing. So you know, I think corner
crossing being more of a Western issue. You know, I'll

(01:05:34):
just kind of mentioned briefly that we're we're already hearing
about potential you know, bills, draft legislation and various states
that are following on the heels of the Tenth Circuit
decision and the decision by the Supreme Court to you know,
basically affirm that Tenth Circuit decision. And so now we
have great clarity in those six states covered by the

(01:05:56):
Tenth Circuit, but really a huge part portion of the
rest of the West and the Ninth is you know,
kind of remains to be determined. There's a bit of
a legal gray area there, and so I think we've
seen movement in Montana coming out from the fish and
Wildlife and parks saying it's illegal, we're going to prosecute it,
which is a bit of a departure from previous statements

(01:06:18):
We've seen some statements from Colorado inside the tenth talking
about you know how it's great, it's legal, but you
can't do it on state lands. Wyoming has a bill
looking at criminal trespass oregons looking out a bill, and
so just flagging that one that it would be a
great issue to stay on top of. It's gonna be

(01:06:40):
something that BHA is heavily engaged in, and we're going
to continue to work with landowners, with you know, this
broad community to ensure that we have access to our
public lands and respect for private property. I think this
is a common sense one that we really can all
agree on and provide some clarity there. And then the

(01:07:00):
water side, you're gonna mention, yeah, and then on the
water side, you know, just over the last couple of years,
there's been a lot of movement on navigable waters, you know,
in stream access. So New Mexico had some some big
gains on stream access. California past navigable waters flooded Waters
bill that was really like important and and pro hunting.

(01:07:23):
Oregon just passed a great bill to help streamline the
process for determining navigal waters. Uh, and I think that
we're likely to see some big movement in Colorado and
Utah this year as well, where stream access and navigable
waters access is not as uh as open and it's
it's actually really restrictive in Colorado where there are a

(01:07:46):
number of rivers that you can't float even so not
even talking about touching the streambed, you can't even float
through uh these private property areas where you know, these
are clear big rivers that have been used for a
long time by people to hunt and fish, and they're
critical for our access, you know, I think in a
number of different states, and so I expect us to

(01:08:10):
to be engaging heavily on this as we have in
the past. But to see a number of bills and
you know, the the right to float through these, you know,
major thoroughfares and to be able to fish and hunt
them is really critical to the whole public trust doctrine
to you know what, I would believe, you know, just
similar to public lands, that these are essential to kind

(01:08:32):
of our heritage and and what it means to be
an American is to have access to these lands and waters.
And so every state's a little different. We'll see what
happens in Colorado and Utah. And I know, Chris, I
think there may be you know, movement as well in
the East on this one. So it's one of those
issues that that does kind of span span the nation
as well.

Speaker 2 (01:08:53):
Yeah, a lot to digest there and to to this
is what's one of those deals where maybe all of
this I do feel like the homogenization or the nationalization
of everything these days leads to us sometimes thinking about
conservation at this very federal, national level, right, I mean,

(01:09:17):
like the politics of Michigan versus Florida sometimes don't feel
that different when all you're hearing about is what's on
you know, Fox News or CNN, and all they're talking
about is the national stuff. And you know, we're all
like virtual neighbors now, so it's easy sometimes to forget
about how important some of the state level stuff is
that is far reaching and that does have major implications

(01:09:41):
like this water access, like you know, corner crossings that
are all you know, while it might be a federal
debate on many of these things were be handled in
the Supreme Court or federal course farther farther down, Uh,
the state is where a lot of this stuff ends
up being decided in practice, and and that's where we
actually can have more impact, maybe because it's it's slightly

(01:10:01):
less noisy.

Speaker 3 (01:10:02):
There so really really good reminders on that front for us.
I appreciate that.

Speaker 2 (01:10:09):
Wrapping things up, I guess a little bit of a
rapid fire, quick set of questions that I would be
curious to just get the first things that come off
the top of your mind. This could be something that
we've already talked about. These might be things that are
that are new that have been to be brought up yet.
But I'd like to with each of you ask you

(01:10:30):
three fast questions, and then we're going to tie this
all up and get you guys out and back to
your very important jobs. I'll start with you, Devin, since
you've got some momentum if you've been talking here a second.
First thing, what today gives you the most cause for
concern about the future of hunting, fishing, wildlife and wild places.

(01:10:54):
What's the first thing that that's causing you concern that
that worries you the most. If there's anything that we're
going to be keeping you up at night, and this
could be state level, federal anything, what's that one thing?

Speaker 4 (01:11:06):
It's the hollowing out of our federal agencies, the lack
of funding for those federal agencies, and the real kind
of resurgence of the sagebrush rebellion type notion that we
should be transferring our federal lands to the states, centralizing
you know, fire management, and taking the role of the

(01:11:30):
federal government that we currently have to manage our public
lands to keep them the public hands according to the
multiple use mandate and that balance. I think that's the
one that's giving me up, and that we're basically siloing
these things out and hauling them out and bringing in
more kind of private industry and some of these shared
stewardship agreements to really you know, kind of just reduce

(01:11:55):
the role that the federal government and also the public
has and being able to comment and manage those lands.

Speaker 2 (01:12:03):
We should probably take another thirty minutes to unbox that
some more. But but but but yes, lots a lot there.
A quick pivot. What's one thing that gives you hope?
What's the one thing that encourages you despite all of that.

Speaker 4 (01:12:22):
I think that gives me hope is this, you know,
seeing the amount of people and the bipartisan nature of
this issued, the amount of people that came out over
the summer opposing the sale of lands and the kind
of the public lands being front and center for a
number of different communities and constituencies that maybe didn't previously

(01:12:46):
weigh in there. And I think it's it's one of
the really it should be and has been one of
the few bipartisan issues that we can really lean into.
And so I think I continue to hope that public
lands and hunting access and angling assets, all those you know,
things that fit into the umbrella public lands continue to

(01:13:08):
be something that is not a part of an issue
that we can build big tents and move forward and
keep those public plans and publicans all right.

Speaker 2 (01:13:17):
And the one single action that you would ask of
our listeners over the next twelve months, what's the single
most important thing they can do as hunters and anglers
and advocates for these things.

Speaker 4 (01:13:34):
The single most important thing would be to develop a
relationship with your state and federal members of Congress and
members of the state legislature and tell your stories from
those lands that you have, like, provide your personal, authentic,
honest accounts of why these places are important to you,
and utilize the tools that BHAs provided and partner organizations

(01:13:56):
have for you know, framing and particular issues and the
wants and details and data. But to be honest, just
tell your story and that is going to go a
lot further than parroting any talking points.

Speaker 2 (01:14:07):
Yeah, all right, Chris, you're up to bat. Single greatest
point of concern.

Speaker 5 (01:14:14):
I'm gonna this one's gonna come from from the East,
and that's relevancy. Our relevancy is hunters and anglers is
something that concerns me. Across most of the country, resident
license sales are declining, and that decline is most dramatic

(01:14:37):
in the East and some of the more populated states.
And we need to be able to articulate and what
our value is to society and why what we do
is important not to us, but to society as a whole.
I think that is I think there aren't as many

(01:15:00):
people who are able to share those experiences in a
in a in a manner that is gonna to help
the greater hunting and fishing communities. I think we all
have to be better at at doing doing that.

Speaker 3 (01:15:15):
Yeah, Okay, greatest cause for hope.

Speaker 5 (01:15:21):
Connection. You know, when when you know DEVI and I
have the opportunity to to travel around a little bit
to meet our members of the hunting and fishing community,
especially within like the b h A community, and to
see the the passion and this like the just the

(01:15:42):
broad sets of experiences and and and and the and
the passionates out there Like that gives me hope that
like all of the challenges that we are facing, can
can can be met and and surpassed. Like I mean,
you've been to Rendezvous, You've been to some of the
other events, like those things I think are so critical.

(01:16:03):
We have to we have to connect face to face
more often.

Speaker 3 (01:16:08):
Yeah, and what's your call to action?

Speaker 5 (01:16:11):
I'm gonna I gotta say exactly what what what Devin said?
Make a connection to your elected officials and also just
I said it earlier. Uh, let that also include your
your state Fish and Wildlife Board or your state agency.
You know, develop relationship more than just sending in your

(01:16:36):
sixty five dollars or whatever it is your for your
annual license. Uh, make that connection, show up at an event,
you know, support the agency or just learn learn from
the agency. And I think that's gonna help out everybody.

Speaker 3 (01:16:51):
Yeah, so true. Well, Christian's you're the last one on
the line here. You're stuck giving the plug too.

Speaker 2 (01:16:58):
Can you tell folks where they can connect with backcountry
hunters and anglers, how they can do so anything else
on that front.

Speaker 5 (01:17:06):
Sure, So of course we're on all the social platforms.
Our website backcountry hunters dot org. You can find all
the stuff that we work on. At the state level.
We have a monthly sort of column on the website.
It also is sort of streamlined for a social media

(01:17:28):
post called the Policy Spotder State Policy Spoder, where we
kind of focus just highlight a handful of state issues
that we're working on on a monthly basis, like look
for those types of things. Become a member, support the
work that we're doing, Attend at event, habitat Stewardship Project,

(01:17:50):
Pine Night, whatever it is. You know, take that opportunity
to to sort of have a face to face conversation
with someone and you know, you're welcome to be part
of this community and to work for public lands, waters
and wildlife.

Speaker 2 (01:18:08):
Yeah, it's a good time too. We've all experienced that,
and so was this. So thank you Devin, thank you, Chris,
really appreciate you guys time.

Speaker 3 (01:18:17):
Thanks for sharing all us, Thank you, thank you. All right,
and that's going to do it. For us today. Thanks
for being here.

Speaker 2 (01:18:25):
I appreciate your time, I appreciate you being a part
of this community, and I am wishing you an incredible
twenty twenty six. Lots of fun times have had and
plenty more hours on the podcast. Here the two of
us talking about these wild things we enjoy so much.
So until next time, thanks for being here, and stay
wired to Hunt.