October 31, 2023 • 28 mins
Jared Yates Sexton, author of The Midnight Kingdom and host of The Muckrake Podcast, returns to Woke AF Daily for a deep and harrowing discussion about life in late capitalism.
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Speaker 1 (00:11):
Good morning, peeps, and welcome to WIKF Daily with Meet
your Girl Daniel Moody. Recording from the Home Bunker. Folks,
very happy to welcome to the show. On this episode,
Jared Yates Sexton. I asked Jared to come on the
show to just talk about the state of the world. Normally,
(00:33):
when you ask folks to come on, you're like, oh,
I'd like to talk about this specific thing. I'd like
to talk about that specific thing. Your book, your pod,
you're this, you're that. And with this, it was just
like everything just feels bad, right, and I feel bad,
and he feels bad, and you feel bad, and we
feel bad, and sometimes you just need to be able
(00:55):
to talk it out. And that's what this conversation with
Jared is. As we continue to watch the horrific videos
and news come out of Gaza and in Israel, as
I continue to be just woefully disappointed in our leaders
and I mean President Biden, as I continue to not
(01:20):
be able to truly understand that there are millions of
people justifying the murder of children, justifying it and saying
that it's okay, it's the means justify the end, right.
There's collateral damage in war. It just really makes me
(01:42):
weep for humanity. And at moments and times when we
feel like everything outside of us is out of control,
that is when it is important to begin to do
the work internally. If that means reading, writing, guard caring
for children, caring for yourself, caring for the elderly, if
(02:05):
it means connecting with community in a way that feels
whole to you, right because that's what is being called
for right now. Donations, if you have the resources to
be able to donate, if you can go through your
closets and like empty them out and give away things
like we have to find a way to connect to
(02:26):
our own humanity in the face of such depravity. That's
what we're being called for and called to do in
this moment. And so I was really looking forward to
this conversation with Jared, because you know, he's a scholar,
he's a human, he's a progressive, and he's someone who's
(02:49):
social media and show I look to when I'm feeling
alone and feeling like I'm the only one that is
wanting to connect the dots and everyone else is just
wanting to be an ostrich. So I hope that you
enjoy this conversation with my friend, author, professor, podcaster, fellow
(03:13):
bad ass Jared Yate Sexton. Folks, I am always so
grateful when I get to talk to some of my
favorite people, particularly in these precarious, dangerous, grief riddled times.
(03:33):
And jaredy Eate Sexton, who is the author of The
Midnight Kingdom, A History of Power, Paranoia, and the Coming Crisis.
He is also the co host of the Muckrake podcast,
and just you know a person I need to talk
to when the world feels like too goddamn much. Jared,
(03:56):
I will just start off by saying, how are you,
How are you doing? How have you been well?
Speaker 2 (04:04):
I'll just say, first of all, I feel like when
we're not talking, I'm talking to you in my head,
like I'm having an ongoing conversation with Moody. But then
it's like when the shit really hits the fan, I
feel like then we have to have an actual conversation. Yeah,
it's very, very appreciated, but it's still so much I
(04:25):
am you know, there's obviously a lot going on. I
feel it. I'm sure you do as well. I'm sure
your listeners do as well. There are so many different
crises that are interlocking in every possible way, and they
exert so much pressure on the individual, on society, and
like all of them sort of play together, they're all
(04:47):
nodded together. And so I guess the truthful answer to
your question is that I'm keeping my head above water.
But it is the time that tries the soul.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
Yeah, I fear that, and I feel that. I think
that these times, and particularly I'm always asking those of
us who make our living, you know, analyzing, critiquing, writing about,
marinating in the crises that the world is under, whether
(05:22):
or not you're an expert in foreign affairs, climate change,
gun reform, any of these things. I think that the
world is taking its toll in a way that I
don't remember when I got into politics, when I got
into policy, that I felt this dried out. So you're
(05:46):
wording and you're freezing around, drying of the soul. I
will ask you, before we even dive into the analysis
of it, how do you keep your head above water?
Because that's the question that I'm getting a lot from
the listeners of woo KF, which is just like they
feel a sense of guilt if they are not in
(06:08):
the news, watching it all day, reading every last bit,
seeing every last horrible photo in video and exposing themselves.
They feel a sense of guilt. So how do you
manage and if you're not managing well, please you know,
also share that to be in the fray, but not frayed.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
I mean, that's the question, right, And I'll go ahead
and be honest because I think it's really important to
say this stuff. I'm glad that you phrased it the
way that you did because I haven't been okay, I
haven't been well. Our jobs are to look at some
of the ugliest and most dangerous things happening in the world.
Because this is a time where you have to you
(06:51):
have to pay attention to it, you have to care
about it. You have to like connect the dots in
a way that isn't comfortable, it doesn't feel good. The
only thing that I have control over is this. It's myself,
it's my experience, and it's the way that I communicate
with others. So yeah, absolutely, Like you know, my birthday
was October seventh, Like I woke up on my birthday
(07:12):
in a hotel room to see the attack in Israel,
and I knew immediately. I told somebody that morning I said,
I feel like I am watching a modern version of
Sarajevo in the early twentieth century. Yeah, yeah, and that
feeling that history, and we've been feeling it for years now,
Like there was a period of time where if you
wanted to, you could ignore it, you know, you could
(07:33):
just you could be self centered. You could not worry
about politics, you cannot worry about culture or anything. That
time isn't now, and it's not time to simply check out,
Like it's not time to simply become self isolated and
self serving. We have to both heal ourselves in order
to heal the world, and that is the only way
to go forward. You know. More and more of my research,
(07:54):
what I'm looking at is how the personal becomes political,
how the personal becomes social and cultural, and and you
look at how these cycles play themselves out. Like you
can't afford to not work on yourself and to to
have a lot more introspection in questioning. So, no, I
haven't been Okay, I feel better now I've worked through it.
I think I'm trying to stay on top of it.
(08:15):
But no, this has not been easy.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
You know. Well, one happy birthday, belated birthday was but
you know, you are a student and a teacher of
history and understand and try and provide for for the
rest of us some context around the parallels that we
(08:38):
are seeing. And so I want to ask you, you know,
you bring up Sarajevo. There are other times I think
that we have been exposed to war and the horrors
of war. There is something, though, Jared, that is different
about this time, and so I want to get give
(09:00):
you the opportunity to tell us what are the parallels
that you're seeing, But what are the differences that are
really noticeable at this moment.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
Well, I'll go ahead and I'll start with this, you know,
watching this thing unfold, one thing that has to always
be stated is that most of the world's crises, the
really really awful ones that result in mass civilian casualties
and people just absolutely suffering, it is a result of
(09:30):
white patriarchal supremacy. I mean, like this entire situation that
we're looking at now, and I'm not just talking about Israel,
I'm talking about around the world. It is because of
a hegemonic project that has been done in the service
of patriarchal white supremacy. And we have been told that
this is the best of all worlds. Don't even question this,
don't even expect something better. And meanwhile, what happens. It's
(09:52):
one war and tragedy after another. That happens because this
project was flawed from the very beginning, and the same
people who have benefited from it, white patriarchal men and
the wealthy and the powerful, they have continued to fuck
everything up. And whenever it happens, they don't want to
take responsibility, and they're going to kill people and lead
to more and more conflict. That's where authoritarianism comes from.
(10:15):
It's whenever that old lie doesn't work anymore, right, and
you can't convince people of it. So as a result,
you have to make people believe it, or you have
to make people operate within it. That's what's happening right now.
We're watching the American hegemonic empire decline. That's how this
entire thing has taken place, and you cannot understand. First
of all, we have to go ahead and acknowledge the
(10:36):
people who are suffering right now. We have innocent Palestinians
who are being killed by the hundreds every single day,
if not the thousands. If it's one of the more
tragic days. You have other people who don't feel secure
in their life and their homes, the property, any of
those things. And by the way, that's not just Israel,
that's around the world. Yeah, this entire project was supposed
to bring safety, stability, and prosperity, and it is failed, failed, failed,
(11:00):
And after decades of American led global leadership, this global
machine that was built with stars and stripes but was
actually done for corporations and the wealthy, it is coming
to its fruition. The problem is, and by the way,
this has been the same thing in every major world war.
And I don't just mean World War One or World
War II, I mean every major conflagration, everything from the
(11:24):
Seven Years War to the Thirty Years War. What happens
is the dominant power that has been in control for
a long time, a bunch of other people say we
can do better than that, and now is the time
for us to take over. In World War One, it
was Germany saying that they needed more colonies, that they
needed to be a world power, and so as a result,
they struck out against the British, the French, you name it.
(11:46):
In World War Two, the Germans did it again. Right now,
it's China, it's Russia, it's Iran, and it's all of
these other countries, the so called axes of resistance, whatever
we want to call it. This situation that's happening is unfortunately,
has been turned into a black and white situation. There's
the good side and the bad side. And what are
we missing. We're missing the innocent people at the heart
(12:08):
of all of it, who are suffering. America is going
ahead in supporting Israel in not just atrocities, but a
planned genocide within Gaza. And guess what Russia and China
are on the other side. They don't care about Palestinians,
they don't care about innocent people suffering. They see this
as a cudgel. And the situation that we're dealing with
right now is that Iran, which has been used by
(12:30):
Russia and China for its own purposes and for its
own agenda. We now have a possibility that this situation
that should have been avoided in the first place, because
the Palestinians should have had their own state and they
should have had their own dignity. From all of this,
this situation is being turned into a receptacle that can
grow and grow and grow and push against American hegemony
(12:51):
right now, every single day, in Lebanon, in Syria, you
name it, Yemen, wherever you want to look. This thing
is being pressured. And I keep likening it to the
United States of America carrying around too many plates and
too many glasses, trying not to let any crash. Guess what,
Eventually you carry too many of those things, they fall
and they crash. Ukraine was a theater in this whole thing,
(13:14):
and now Israel and Gaza is a theater in this
whole thing. And we're not going to succeed if we
keep playing this game.
Speaker 1 (13:22):
It is I mean, Jared, the way that you just
laid this out and what I have been feeling and sensing,
and as somebody who is a student of history but
is not a historian, is not and I tell people
this all the time as a engaging conversation around what
(13:42):
is happening in Israel and palestein that I am not
a foreign affairs person or expert. I am an expert
in humanity, right and what I am seeing is exactly
this proxy that is being set up, this new axis
that is forming between these powers. Because America has been
(14:04):
faltering for close to a decade at this point. For
the last where I was for the for the last
eight years, proper right, we have been a backsliding democracy.
People have seen the fact that America, our government has
no idea what it's doing and is dealing with its
own fascistic authoritarian rise. And so who are you then
(14:29):
to be the authority to govern anything? And frankly, what
you have put your hands on and put your money
into has has resulted in so much more depth than
the story that we actually want to carry back and
tell at home.
Speaker 2 (14:44):
And by the way, you would not have this rising
access if the United States of America didn't value power
and profit correct with the dignity of human beings. Why
is Vladimir Putin in power? Because the United States saw
the ability to go ahead and turn Russia into an authoritarian,
capitalist pair paradise. He was absolutely our man on the inside.
We didn't care how many people he killed, We didn't
(15:05):
care what he did and what he did to normal
human beings. With China, we were more than happy to
go ahead and have their people work at slave wages.
Ye to take every other country around the world, whether
it's Vietnam or Malaysia, and take those people and make
them work for slave wages. We did that in order
to build up corporate profits and power. The entire time
(15:26):
America stumbled out of the starting gate of the quote
unquote American Empire. The first thing we did as everything
ended in the nineteen forties is we said, hey, Nazis,
you all know rockets, come on over, we'll talk. You know,
you can go ahead and help us fight the USSR.
We have compromised any espouse principles that we've had from
the very beginning, the American hegemonic empire has been a
(15:49):
villainous enterprise that's been hidden behind a ton of rhetoric
about freedom and human dignity. And while that has happened,
it's like a tooth. Like a tooth is fine for
a while, but it decays, and it decays and it
decays until one day there's nothing left and it just
falls out. And that's what has happened here. We have
misplayed all of the quote unquote responsibility that we got
(16:11):
in the beginning. You look at everything from Vietnam to
what we've done in South America. All of these decisions
were to push corporate and wealth profits. That's it. And
eventually over time, there's no base, there's no foundation, and
then you reach a point where again Putin and China,
all of these things that we use to our advantage,
(16:31):
now all of a sudden you look around and you're like,
what's going on? Why is this falling out of place?
Why are we in this chaotic spot? And it's because
America and its corporate donors and backers, the ones who
have profited from this project, they put profit over human dignity.
Every single time, white patriarchal supremacy does not work. And
(16:51):
on top of that, it only destroys any moral or
ethical leadership that you could possibly hope to find. And
what happens you come to the end of the Americamerican Empire,
the American empirical experiment. What do you do? And I
have to tell you it's not supporting Israel as you're
murdering children every single day. It doesn't work in terms
of like creating these black and white paradigms that plays
(17:13):
into that that does nothing but help Russia and China.
The only thing we can do at this point is
to take a long, hard look at ourselves, which is
not our strength.
Speaker 1 (17:24):
I'm what, America, are you talking about don't we don't
do self reflection.
Speaker 2 (17:28):
But I will say, I will say, and I don't
know how you feel about it. I'm a veteran of
the Iraq war build up. I was organizing and protesting
that back in two thousand and three to one the
most frustrating and sad moments of my entire life. It's
what radicalized me, It's what made me who I am.
I'm amazed that as I turn on television stations, I
am seeing warmongering. I am seeing people apologize for atrocities
(17:52):
and war crimes and call for genocide. You know who's
not buying it? The American people. Yeah, the American people
don't buy this shit. They're done with it. And that's
part of the issue in all of this is that
while America is stumbling empirically, the American people are waking
up and they don't want anything to do with this.
And it shows in our labor, it shows in our politics.
(18:12):
And the only problem I have with this, and I
this is something I harp on. I want to let
people know, like the more the democracy rises and actual
populism rises, that's when the wealthy, I don't know, they
start to sick. The dogs on you. They start to
they start to really come after you. This story doesn't work,
this push doesn't work. People are not buying it. And
so as a result, the question is what happens from that?
(18:34):
And that's what I'm keeping an eye on.
Speaker 1 (18:36):
You know, I think that what is really, what is
both terrifying and gratifying at the same time, is that
there is a level of consciousness that is at play.
To the point that you just made that the narrative,
the narrative lie that we have been indoctrinated with about
America and freedom and justice and welcoming and what is
(19:00):
carved into our statues has never been at the center
of our policies, whether they are domestic or foreign. Because money, right,
as Wu Tang had said, cash rules everything around me, right,
and that collection of greed, which is also a part
that fuels white supremacy, because white supremacy is fueled by greed, right,
(19:21):
and is fueled by power right. And so you have
this idea that the story. People are starting to question
the story, which is why they're starting to ban the books, right.
They ban the books and they rewrite curriculum because too
many people are saying, wait a minute, this doesn't seem
to jive, right, This doesn't really make sense. And so
(19:42):
when you have a president which my god Biden right now,
his poll numbers right, which I always say on this show,
I don't take a lot of stock in poll numbers.
But let me tell you something. When you drop well
below forty percent right in the last two fucking weeks,
because you are just in lockstep with a homicidal like
(20:10):
fascist who is netan Yahoo that his own goddamn people
don't like him, hate his own people hate him. The
hostages that are being released are saying you failed us
yep right, and are telling the story, and you got
Fox News breaking away from that coverage because let us
not tell the truth. I feel like we are at
(20:34):
the breaking of the breaking point, Jared, where two for
the for the power players, too many people are awake,
For people like you and me, not enough people are awake.
And I'm just wondering, as you are watching these parallels
(20:54):
play out with our history and what we've always known
to be true, with the coexisting with the reality that
people are waking up to, what do you think about
the American Project and twenty twenty four Because all of
this is the backdrop to that.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
Well, first of all, what you just put your finger
on couldn't be more right. I was writing about this
in my book American Role and then The Midnight Kingdom. Again,
it's the noble lie. It's a platonic idea that, you know,
you have to tell people a story about how society
works so that they'll believe in it. And eventually what
happens is the noble lie loses its power because guess what,
you don't have to write books, you don't have to
(21:37):
host podcast, you don't have to be an expert to
look around and say shit doesn't work. Everybody in America
recognizes it now. And that's across all political stripes. Our
politics are actually right now in expression of everybody being
dissatisfied with what's going on. It just so happens with
how do they blame? Who do they blame for it? Right?
You got to blame corporations. Are they going to blame
(22:00):
Donald Trump? Are they gonna blame you know, Jewish people,
or are they gonna blame conspiracies? Whatever it is, everybody
right now knows it. And guess what happens whenever a
major power the noble lie starts to flicker. You got
to find a new noble lie. You're either going to
lose all that power which happened with the British Empire.
And it's important in this conversation to understand that capitalism
(22:20):
is a parasite. It jumps from post host It wasn't
always like America, wasn't always at the head of the table.
It left Great Britain and came to America and it
has sucked a lot of blood and it's ready to go.
It's either going to have like an authoritarian system or
it's gonna go looking for one. And I don't know,
say China, right like, those are the stakes right now.
(22:41):
The question is whether or not we can wrestle this
thing under control I personally, and I don't know how
you feel about it. I look at twenty twenty four.
At this point, man, is it starting to look a
lot like a nineteen sixty eight. It's starting to look
a lot like a populist movement that is active for
social revolution, for economic revolution. And guess what, it's fed
(23:03):
up with everybody. And I got to tell you, you know,
there have been some moments in all this where Joe
Biden has come out and said something They're like, well,
that's almost reasonable. But guess what. I also see a
husk of a president. I see a person who isn't
capable of this. I see it. And by the way,
more than ever, we need a bridge to the future.
We need an alternate vision of how the future should
(23:25):
feel as opposed to how it feels right now. He
is not the man to do that. And quite frankly,
I keep telling people this, and I don't want to
be right about this. If you came back from November
twenty twenty four and told me that either Joe Biden
or Donald Trump didn't survive to November, I would not
be shocked. Like, this is a weird moving situation that
(23:46):
is changing. Actually not even by the month. It's changing
by the day, day by the day. And I got
to tell you, there is nothing that I see in
developing news that tells me like we're in October twenty
twenty three. There is no way in hell that October
of twenty twenty four looks anything like October twenty twenty three.
Speaker 1 (24:04):
Oh my god, this.
Speaker 2 (24:06):
Thing is gathering and right now there are a lot
of bets that I would put on the table, like
from what I'm seeing and how these things usually play out.
There are a lot of things that I'm anticipating and
by the way, they're getting checked off, and that worries me.
But at the same time, one thing that I've learned
looking at history is that nothing changes if there isn't tension.
(24:27):
I've told people for years, I said, I think it's
going to get better, but you need to understand that
twenty sixteen was bad. But things are going to get
a whole lot worse than twenty sixteen, and they are.
This is going to be a tribulation, is what it's
going to be.
Speaker 1 (24:41):
But I do have hope, you know, I will say
this to your point about nineteen sixty eight two. It
was a revolutionary year, it was a revolutionary time. It
was also one of the bloodiest, right, And I have
been saying on this show since the beginning of this
show that things will in fact get better, but they
(25:05):
will get bloodier before then, and that's just you know,
the reality. So final thoughts for.
Speaker 2 (25:10):
You, well, I just real fast on that note. I'm
so glad you brought that up. You know, I don't
want to blow up your airing schedule, but we're taping
this on I believe it's Thursday. It's a hard it's
a hard thing.
Speaker 1 (25:23):
Yeah there, who knows.
Speaker 2 (25:25):
We're taping this on October twenty sixth, and last night,
what from all terms, we can see a right wing
authoritarian extremist went into a bunch of places in Maine
and killed at last count, you know, dozens of people.
You know, you just said nineteen sixty it was bloody.
People remember that because of bombings. They remember that, you know,
(25:46):
they remember that era because there were bombings. They remember
that era because of course, you know, things like Kent State.
People do not want to look at the fact that
mass shooting in this country is asymmetrical terrorism, like there
has been a lot of blood spilled in this country
over the past few years. People don't want to admit it.
They want to say, oh, it's lone nuts, it's people
(26:08):
off their meds, it's people you know that aren't well. No,
this is political terrorism and it's been happening left and right,
and you can't look at any of this stuff without
seeing it. If you're being honest with yourself, with an
open heart and open mind, you're absolutely right. Next year
and this year are i mean already incredibly bloody it
is going to be a hard time. I mean, even
(26:29):
since we started recording this, I'm going to have to
go and check and see what's happening in Israel right now,
you know, like it changes hour by hour, This conflict
consistently switches. The problem is that America again, it just
it is incapable of actual introspection and putting things into
context in order to learn from them. The American people, however,
are different, and yeah, all people are different. I don't
(26:51):
care if they're Palestinian, or Israeli or the American. When
you stop looking at those nations and you start looking
at human beings. We deserve to be free. We have dignity, yes,
and we start to piece things together after a while,
all of us do. And when that happens, that's when
the hammer starts to come down. But I am incredibly
hopeful that it is a precarious, weird time and.
Speaker 1 (27:13):
I can think of nobody better to be in conversation
with and a comrade in in this than you, my friend,
jaredy eight Sexton. Thank you, as always so much. We
will bring you back more for these conversations because they
are needed for joining wokef always appreciate you.
Speaker 2 (27:32):
Can we do this on like a sunny Friday. Can
we talk about like what we're doing for the weekend,
Like can we get there at some point?
Speaker 1 (27:41):
That would be lovely.
Speaker 2 (27:42):
I would love that.
Speaker 1 (27:48):
That is it for me today, dear friends on wokef
as always, power to the people and to all the people. Power,
get woke and stay woke as fuck.
Good morning, peeps, and welcome to WIKF Daily with Meet
your Girl Daniel Moody. Recording from the Home Bunker. Folks,
very happy to welcome to the show. On this episode,
Jared Yates Sexton. I asked Jared to come on the
show to just talk about the state of the world. Normally,
(00:33):
when you ask folks to come on, you're like, oh,
I'd like to talk about this specific thing. I'd like
to talk about that specific thing. Your book, your pod,
you're this, you're that. And with this, it was just
like everything just feels bad, right, and I feel bad,
and he feels bad, and you feel bad, and we
feel bad, and sometimes you just need to be able
(00:55):
to talk it out. And that's what this conversation with
Jared is. As we continue to watch the horrific videos
and news come out of Gaza and in Israel, as
I continue to be just woefully disappointed in our leaders
and I mean President Biden, as I continue to not
(01:20):
be able to truly understand that there are millions of
people justifying the murder of children, justifying it and saying
that it's okay, it's the means justify the end, right.
There's collateral damage in war. It just really makes me
(01:42):
weep for humanity. And at moments and times when we
feel like everything outside of us is out of control,
that is when it is important to begin to do
the work internally. If that means reading, writing, guard caring
for children, caring for yourself, caring for the elderly, if
(02:05):
it means connecting with community in a way that feels
whole to you, right because that's what is being called
for right now. Donations, if you have the resources to
be able to donate, if you can go through your
closets and like empty them out and give away things
like we have to find a way to connect to
(02:26):
our own humanity in the face of such depravity. That's
what we're being called for and called to do in
this moment. And so I was really looking forward to
this conversation with Jared, because you know, he's a scholar,
he's a human, he's a progressive, and he's someone who's
(02:49):
social media and show I look to when I'm feeling
alone and feeling like I'm the only one that is
wanting to connect the dots and everyone else is just
wanting to be an ostrich. So I hope that you
enjoy this conversation with my friend, author, professor, podcaster, fellow
(03:13):
bad ass Jared Yate Sexton. Folks, I am always so
grateful when I get to talk to some of my
favorite people, particularly in these precarious, dangerous, grief riddled times.
(03:33):
And jaredy Eate Sexton, who is the author of The
Midnight Kingdom, A History of Power, Paranoia, and the Coming Crisis.
He is also the co host of the Muckrake podcast,
and just you know a person I need to talk
to when the world feels like too goddamn much. Jared,
(03:56):
I will just start off by saying, how are you,
How are you doing? How have you been well?
Speaker 2 (04:04):
I'll just say, first of all, I feel like when
we're not talking, I'm talking to you in my head,
like I'm having an ongoing conversation with Moody. But then
it's like when the shit really hits the fan, I
feel like then we have to have an actual conversation. Yeah,
it's very, very appreciated, but it's still so much I
(04:25):
am you know, there's obviously a lot going on. I
feel it. I'm sure you do as well. I'm sure
your listeners do as well. There are so many different
crises that are interlocking in every possible way, and they
exert so much pressure on the individual, on society, and
like all of them sort of play together, they're all
(04:47):
nodded together. And so I guess the truthful answer to
your question is that I'm keeping my head above water.
But it is the time that tries the soul.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
Yeah, I fear that, and I feel that. I think
that these times, and particularly I'm always asking those of
us who make our living, you know, analyzing, critiquing, writing about,
marinating in the crises that the world is under, whether
(05:22):
or not you're an expert in foreign affairs, climate change,
gun reform, any of these things. I think that the
world is taking its toll in a way that I
don't remember when I got into politics, when I got
into policy, that I felt this dried out. So you're
(05:46):
wording and you're freezing around, drying of the soul. I
will ask you, before we even dive into the analysis
of it, how do you keep your head above water?
Because that's the question that I'm getting a lot from
the listeners of woo KF, which is just like they
feel a sense of guilt if they are not in
(06:08):
the news, watching it all day, reading every last bit,
seeing every last horrible photo in video and exposing themselves.
They feel a sense of guilt. So how do you
manage and if you're not managing well, please you know,
also share that to be in the fray, but not frayed.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
I mean, that's the question, right, And I'll go ahead
and be honest because I think it's really important to
say this stuff. I'm glad that you phrased it the
way that you did because I haven't been okay, I
haven't been well. Our jobs are to look at some
of the ugliest and most dangerous things happening in the world.
Because this is a time where you have to you
(06:51):
have to pay attention to it, you have to care
about it. You have to like connect the dots in
a way that isn't comfortable, it doesn't feel good. The
only thing that I have control over is this. It's myself,
it's my experience, and it's the way that I communicate
with others. So yeah, absolutely, Like you know, my birthday
was October seventh, Like I woke up on my birthday
(07:12):
in a hotel room to see the attack in Israel,
and I knew immediately. I told somebody that morning I said,
I feel like I am watching a modern version of
Sarajevo in the early twentieth century. Yeah, yeah, and that
feeling that history, and we've been feeling it for years now,
Like there was a period of time where if you
wanted to, you could ignore it, you know, you could
(07:33):
just you could be self centered. You could not worry
about politics, you cannot worry about culture or anything. That
time isn't now, and it's not time to simply check out,
Like it's not time to simply become self isolated and
self serving. We have to both heal ourselves in order
to heal the world, and that is the only way
to go forward. You know. More and more of my research,
(07:54):
what I'm looking at is how the personal becomes political,
how the personal becomes social and cultural, and and you
look at how these cycles play themselves out. Like you
can't afford to not work on yourself and to to
have a lot more introspection in questioning. So, no, I
haven't been Okay, I feel better now I've worked through it.
I think I'm trying to stay on top of it.
(08:15):
But no, this has not been easy.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
You know. Well, one happy birthday, belated birthday was but
you know, you are a student and a teacher of
history and understand and try and provide for for the
rest of us some context around the parallels that we
(08:38):
are seeing. And so I want to ask you, you know,
you bring up Sarajevo. There are other times I think
that we have been exposed to war and the horrors
of war. There is something, though, Jared, that is different
about this time, and so I want to get give
(09:00):
you the opportunity to tell us what are the parallels
that you're seeing, But what are the differences that are
really noticeable at this moment.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
Well, I'll go ahead and I'll start with this, you know,
watching this thing unfold, one thing that has to always
be stated is that most of the world's crises, the
really really awful ones that result in mass civilian casualties
and people just absolutely suffering, it is a result of
(09:30):
white patriarchal supremacy. I mean, like this entire situation that
we're looking at now, and I'm not just talking about Israel,
I'm talking about around the world. It is because of
a hegemonic project that has been done in the service
of patriarchal white supremacy. And we have been told that
this is the best of all worlds. Don't even question this,
don't even expect something better. And meanwhile, what happens. It's
(09:52):
one war and tragedy after another. That happens because this
project was flawed from the very beginning, and the same
people who have benefited from it, white patriarchal men and
the wealthy and the powerful, they have continued to fuck
everything up. And whenever it happens, they don't want to
take responsibility, and they're going to kill people and lead
to more and more conflict. That's where authoritarianism comes from.
(10:15):
It's whenever that old lie doesn't work anymore, right, and
you can't convince people of it. So as a result,
you have to make people believe it, or you have
to make people operate within it. That's what's happening right now.
We're watching the American hegemonic empire decline. That's how this
entire thing has taken place, and you cannot understand. First
of all, we have to go ahead and acknowledge the
(10:36):
people who are suffering right now. We have innocent Palestinians
who are being killed by the hundreds every single day,
if not the thousands. If it's one of the more
tragic days. You have other people who don't feel secure
in their life and their homes, the property, any of
those things. And by the way, that's not just Israel,
that's around the world. Yeah, this entire project was supposed
to bring safety, stability, and prosperity, and it is failed, failed, failed,
(11:00):
And after decades of American led global leadership, this global
machine that was built with stars and stripes but was
actually done for corporations and the wealthy, it is coming
to its fruition. The problem is, and by the way,
this has been the same thing in every major world war.
And I don't just mean World War One or World
War II, I mean every major conflagration, everything from the
(11:24):
Seven Years War to the Thirty Years War. What happens
is the dominant power that has been in control for
a long time, a bunch of other people say we
can do better than that, and now is the time
for us to take over. In World War One, it
was Germany saying that they needed more colonies, that they
needed to be a world power, and so as a result,
they struck out against the British, the French, you name it.
(11:46):
In World War Two, the Germans did it again. Right now,
it's China, it's Russia, it's Iran, and it's all of
these other countries, the so called axes of resistance, whatever
we want to call it. This situation that's happening is unfortunately,
has been turned into a black and white situation. There's
the good side and the bad side. And what are
we missing. We're missing the innocent people at the heart
(12:08):
of all of it, who are suffering. America is going
ahead in supporting Israel in not just atrocities, but a
planned genocide within Gaza. And guess what Russia and China
are on the other side. They don't care about Palestinians,
they don't care about innocent people suffering. They see this
as a cudgel. And the situation that we're dealing with
right now is that Iran, which has been used by
(12:30):
Russia and China for its own purposes and for its
own agenda. We now have a possibility that this situation
that should have been avoided in the first place, because
the Palestinians should have had their own state and they
should have had their own dignity. From all of this,
this situation is being turned into a receptacle that can
grow and grow and grow and push against American hegemony
(12:51):
right now, every single day, in Lebanon, in Syria, you
name it, Yemen, wherever you want to look. This thing
is being pressured. And I keep likening it to the
United States of America carrying around too many plates and
too many glasses, trying not to let any crash. Guess what,
Eventually you carry too many of those things, they fall
and they crash. Ukraine was a theater in this whole thing,
(13:14):
and now Israel and Gaza is a theater in this
whole thing. And we're not going to succeed if we
keep playing this game.
Speaker 1 (13:22):
It is I mean, Jared, the way that you just
laid this out and what I have been feeling and sensing,
and as somebody who is a student of history but
is not a historian, is not and I tell people
this all the time as a engaging conversation around what
(13:42):
is happening in Israel and palestein that I am not
a foreign affairs person or expert. I am an expert
in humanity, right and what I am seeing is exactly
this proxy that is being set up, this new axis
that is forming between these powers. Because America has been
(14:04):
faltering for close to a decade at this point. For
the last where I was for the for the last
eight years, proper right, we have been a backsliding democracy.
People have seen the fact that America, our government has
no idea what it's doing and is dealing with its
own fascistic authoritarian rise. And so who are you then
(14:29):
to be the authority to govern anything? And frankly, what
you have put your hands on and put your money
into has has resulted in so much more depth than
the story that we actually want to carry back and
tell at home.
Speaker 2 (14:44):
And by the way, you would not have this rising
access if the United States of America didn't value power
and profit correct with the dignity of human beings. Why
is Vladimir Putin in power? Because the United States saw
the ability to go ahead and turn Russia into an authoritarian,
capitalist pair paradise. He was absolutely our man on the inside.
We didn't care how many people he killed, We didn't
(15:05):
care what he did and what he did to normal
human beings. With China, we were more than happy to
go ahead and have their people work at slave wages.
Ye to take every other country around the world, whether
it's Vietnam or Malaysia, and take those people and make
them work for slave wages. We did that in order
to build up corporate profits and power. The entire time
(15:26):
America stumbled out of the starting gate of the quote
unquote American Empire. The first thing we did as everything
ended in the nineteen forties is we said, hey, Nazis,
you all know rockets, come on over, we'll talk. You know,
you can go ahead and help us fight the USSR.
We have compromised any espouse principles that we've had from
the very beginning, the American hegemonic empire has been a
(15:49):
villainous enterprise that's been hidden behind a ton of rhetoric
about freedom and human dignity. And while that has happened,
it's like a tooth. Like a tooth is fine for
a while, but it decays, and it decays and it
decays until one day there's nothing left and it just
falls out. And that's what has happened here. We have
misplayed all of the quote unquote responsibility that we got
(16:11):
in the beginning. You look at everything from Vietnam to
what we've done in South America. All of these decisions
were to push corporate and wealth profits. That's it. And
eventually over time, there's no base, there's no foundation, and
then you reach a point where again Putin and China,
all of these things that we use to our advantage,
(16:31):
now all of a sudden you look around and you're like,
what's going on? Why is this falling out of place?
Why are we in this chaotic spot? And it's because
America and its corporate donors and backers, the ones who
have profited from this project, they put profit over human dignity.
Every single time, white patriarchal supremacy does not work. And
(16:51):
on top of that, it only destroys any moral or
ethical leadership that you could possibly hope to find. And
what happens you come to the end of the Americamerican Empire,
the American empirical experiment. What do you do? And I
have to tell you it's not supporting Israel as you're
murdering children every single day. It doesn't work in terms
of like creating these black and white paradigms that plays
(17:13):
into that that does nothing but help Russia and China.
The only thing we can do at this point is
to take a long, hard look at ourselves, which is
not our strength.
Speaker 1 (17:24):
I'm what, America, are you talking about don't we don't
do self reflection.
Speaker 2 (17:28):
But I will say, I will say, and I don't
know how you feel about it. I'm a veteran of
the Iraq war build up. I was organizing and protesting
that back in two thousand and three to one the
most frustrating and sad moments of my entire life. It's
what radicalized me, It's what made me who I am.
I'm amazed that as I turn on television stations, I
am seeing warmongering. I am seeing people apologize for atrocities
(17:52):
and war crimes and call for genocide. You know who's
not buying it? The American people. Yeah, the American people
don't buy this shit. They're done with it. And that's
part of the issue in all of this is that
while America is stumbling empirically, the American people are waking
up and they don't want anything to do with this.
And it shows in our labor, it shows in our politics.
(18:12):
And the only problem I have with this, and I
this is something I harp on. I want to let
people know, like the more the democracy rises and actual
populism rises, that's when the wealthy, I don't know, they
start to sick. The dogs on you. They start to
they start to really come after you. This story doesn't work,
this push doesn't work. People are not buying it. And
so as a result, the question is what happens from that?
(18:34):
And that's what I'm keeping an eye on.
Speaker 1 (18:36):
You know, I think that what is really, what is
both terrifying and gratifying at the same time, is that
there is a level of consciousness that is at play.
To the point that you just made that the narrative,
the narrative lie that we have been indoctrinated with about
America and freedom and justice and welcoming and what is
(19:00):
carved into our statues has never been at the center
of our policies, whether they are domestic or foreign. Because money, right,
as Wu Tang had said, cash rules everything around me, right,
and that collection of greed, which is also a part
that fuels white supremacy, because white supremacy is fueled by greed, right,
(19:21):
and is fueled by power right. And so you have
this idea that the story. People are starting to question
the story, which is why they're starting to ban the books, right.
They ban the books and they rewrite curriculum because too
many people are saying, wait a minute, this doesn't seem
to jive, right, This doesn't really make sense. And so
(19:42):
when you have a president which my god Biden right now,
his poll numbers right, which I always say on this show,
I don't take a lot of stock in poll numbers.
But let me tell you something. When you drop well
below forty percent right in the last two fucking weeks,
because you are just in lockstep with a homicidal like
(20:10):
fascist who is netan Yahoo that his own goddamn people
don't like him, hate his own people hate him. The
hostages that are being released are saying you failed us
yep right, and are telling the story, and you got
Fox News breaking away from that coverage because let us
not tell the truth. I feel like we are at
(20:34):
the breaking of the breaking point, Jared, where two for
the for the power players, too many people are awake,
For people like you and me, not enough people are awake.
And I'm just wondering, as you are watching these parallels
(20:54):
play out with our history and what we've always known
to be true, with the coexisting with the reality that
people are waking up to, what do you think about
the American Project and twenty twenty four Because all of
this is the backdrop to that.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
Well, first of all, what you just put your finger
on couldn't be more right. I was writing about this
in my book American Role and then The Midnight Kingdom. Again,
it's the noble lie. It's a platonic idea that, you know,
you have to tell people a story about how society
works so that they'll believe in it. And eventually what
happens is the noble lie loses its power because guess what,
you don't have to write books, you don't have to
(21:37):
host podcast, you don't have to be an expert to
look around and say shit doesn't work. Everybody in America
recognizes it now. And that's across all political stripes. Our
politics are actually right now in expression of everybody being
dissatisfied with what's going on. It just so happens with
how do they blame? Who do they blame for it? Right?
You got to blame corporations. Are they going to blame
(22:00):
Donald Trump? Are they gonna blame you know, Jewish people,
or are they gonna blame conspiracies? Whatever it is, everybody
right now knows it. And guess what happens whenever a
major power the noble lie starts to flicker. You got
to find a new noble lie. You're either going to
lose all that power which happened with the British Empire.
And it's important in this conversation to understand that capitalism
(22:20):
is a parasite. It jumps from post host It wasn't
always like America, wasn't always at the head of the table.
It left Great Britain and came to America and it
has sucked a lot of blood and it's ready to go.
It's either going to have like an authoritarian system or
it's gonna go looking for one. And I don't know,
say China, right like, those are the stakes right now.
(22:41):
The question is whether or not we can wrestle this
thing under control I personally, and I don't know how
you feel about it. I look at twenty twenty four.
At this point, man, is it starting to look a
lot like a nineteen sixty eight. It's starting to look
a lot like a populist movement that is active for
social revolution, for economic revolution. And guess what, it's fed
(23:03):
up with everybody. And I got to tell you, you know,
there have been some moments in all this where Joe
Biden has come out and said something They're like, well,
that's almost reasonable. But guess what. I also see a
husk of a president. I see a person who isn't
capable of this. I see it. And by the way,
more than ever, we need a bridge to the future.
We need an alternate vision of how the future should
(23:25):
feel as opposed to how it feels right now. He
is not the man to do that. And quite frankly,
I keep telling people this, and I don't want to
be right about this. If you came back from November
twenty twenty four and told me that either Joe Biden
or Donald Trump didn't survive to November, I would not
be shocked. Like, this is a weird moving situation that
(23:46):
is changing. Actually not even by the month. It's changing
by the day, day by the day. And I got
to tell you, there is nothing that I see in
developing news that tells me like we're in October twenty
twenty three. There is no way in hell that October
of twenty twenty four looks anything like October twenty twenty three.
Speaker 1 (24:04):
Oh my god, this.
Speaker 2 (24:06):
Thing is gathering and right now there are a lot
of bets that I would put on the table, like
from what I'm seeing and how these things usually play out.
There are a lot of things that I'm anticipating and
by the way, they're getting checked off, and that worries me.
But at the same time, one thing that I've learned
looking at history is that nothing changes if there isn't tension.
(24:27):
I've told people for years, I said, I think it's
going to get better, but you need to understand that
twenty sixteen was bad. But things are going to get
a whole lot worse than twenty sixteen, and they are.
This is going to be a tribulation, is what it's
going to be.
Speaker 1 (24:41):
But I do have hope, you know, I will say
this to your point about nineteen sixty eight two. It
was a revolutionary year, it was a revolutionary time. It
was also one of the bloodiest, right, And I have
been saying on this show since the beginning of this
show that things will in fact get better, but they
(25:05):
will get bloodier before then, and that's just you know,
the reality. So final thoughts for.
Speaker 2 (25:10):
You, well, I just real fast on that note. I'm
so glad you brought that up. You know, I don't
want to blow up your airing schedule, but we're taping
this on I believe it's Thursday. It's a hard it's
a hard thing.
Speaker 1 (25:23):
Yeah there, who knows.
Speaker 2 (25:25):
We're taping this on October twenty sixth, and last night,
what from all terms, we can see a right wing
authoritarian extremist went into a bunch of places in Maine
and killed at last count, you know, dozens of people.
You know, you just said nineteen sixty it was bloody.
People remember that because of bombings. They remember that, you know,
(25:46):
they remember that era because there were bombings. They remember
that era because of course, you know, things like Kent State.
People do not want to look at the fact that
mass shooting in this country is asymmetrical terrorism, like there
has been a lot of blood spilled in this country
over the past few years. People don't want to admit it.
They want to say, oh, it's lone nuts, it's people
(26:08):
off their meds, it's people you know that aren't well. No,
this is political terrorism and it's been happening left and right,
and you can't look at any of this stuff without
seeing it. If you're being honest with yourself, with an
open heart and open mind, you're absolutely right. Next year
and this year are i mean already incredibly bloody it
is going to be a hard time. I mean, even
(26:29):
since we started recording this, I'm going to have to
go and check and see what's happening in Israel right now,
you know, like it changes hour by hour, This conflict
consistently switches. The problem is that America again, it just
it is incapable of actual introspection and putting things into
context in order to learn from them. The American people, however,
are different, and yeah, all people are different. I don't
(26:51):
care if they're Palestinian, or Israeli or the American. When
you stop looking at those nations and you start looking
at human beings. We deserve to be free. We have dignity, yes,
and we start to piece things together after a while,
all of us do. And when that happens, that's when
the hammer starts to come down. But I am incredibly
hopeful that it is a precarious, weird time and.
Speaker 1 (27:13):
I can think of nobody better to be in conversation
with and a comrade in in this than you, my friend,
jaredy eight Sexton. Thank you, as always so much. We
will bring you back more for these conversations because they
are needed for joining wokef always appreciate you.
Speaker 2 (27:32):
Can we do this on like a sunny Friday. Can
we talk about like what we're doing for the weekend,
Like can we get there at some point?
Speaker 1 (27:41):
That would be lovely.
Speaker 2 (27:42):
I would love that.
Speaker 1 (27:48):
That is it for me today, dear friends on wokef
as always, power to the people and to all the people. Power,
get woke and stay woke as fuck.
Host
Danielle Moodie
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