December 20, 2024 • 21 mins
Danielle Moodie has one final conversation with Dr. Jonathan Metzl on Woke AF Daily.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:11):
Good morning, Peepsen, and welcome to ook F Daily with
Me your Girl, Daniel Moody recording from the Home Bunker. Folks,
it is a bittersweet that wok F is winding down.
I'm going to dedicate a solo show that you will
(00:33):
listen to over the holidays on my reflections over the
last seven years of helming this show and speaking and
creating an audience with all of you. But I couldn't
have done this show without the consistency of the presence
(00:56):
of doctor Jonathan Metzel, who for four years has shown
up each and every week to engage in conversation with me,
with all of us, and just to think about, you know,
just think about it for a moment, what we've been
through as a country over the last four years, what
(01:20):
you've been through personally over the last four years. It's
wild to kind of wrap your mind around. And I
have found such solace and hopefulness in the grounding conversations
that I've been able to have with Jonathan over the
(01:40):
last several years. And I think that his insight has
been invaluable and I have appreciated it so very much,
And it is just I can't believe that this is
our last interview on WOKF and so today we just
take some time to we're reflect on what has transpired
(02:02):
over the last four years, what we've learned and you know,
and give thoughts to how we move in twenty twenty five.
So I really hope that you enjoy this conversation, this
last conversation on WOKF with our friend, our in house doctor,
(02:24):
doctor Jonathan Metzel. Uh So, folks, I am this is
this is so crazy. Uh For four years, for four years,
uh doctor, our in house doctor, doctor Jonathan Metzl has
(02:44):
been in conversation on WOKF daily and today is our
final interview on WOKF. Which is so wild, Jonathan, it's
wiping tears from his eyes. Is so wild to think
about the hours Jonathan, that you and I have spent
(03:08):
together on air. I first off just want to thank
you for all of your time, for all of your
analysis over the years, which has just been like priceless.
But I guess I want to start off with you know,
some of your reflections over over time together.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
Well, I mean, think about what's happened to like our lives,
our everything, like you know, so so much has happened
just in the world globally and personally, and so it's
great to have a consistent friendship above all else that
kind of sees you through all of these ups and
downs about elections and global shit and relationships and breakups
(03:56):
and everything else. Like we've become really good friends. This
love I love that part, and so that part has
been so meaningful, and there are days where we have
it's funny to think about, like when we first started
doing this, Yeah, we would spend quite a bit of
time working on the you know before like what's the
agenda and where the points that we're to get hit.
(04:18):
And then about halfway through we realized, like, okay, just
turn on the damn camera.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
We'll figure it out the microphone and we'll figure it out.
Speaker 2 (04:24):
Because we just figured out that like we had, we
had just gotten this like lovely I think resonance. So
for me, that's that beside any like one thing. I mean,
we've seen ups and downs. Most of America I think
now realizes we warned them pretty much about every single
thing that was going to happen. We predicted a lot
of shit here that I ended up happening. And uh,
(04:46):
but but but but even beyond that, we just created
such a nice vibe, I think, And so I'm the
most grateful for the fact that we got so comfortable
that we would just be like, hey, hey, okay, turn
on look on the bikephone, you know that kind of thing.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
Yeah, because I think that, you know, over the last
several years, like it is wild, honestly to think about
what we've been through as a country, but also what
we've been through personally in our personal lives, like you
bring up. But at some point we just realized, well,
we're reading and watching the same things, so let's just
(05:24):
get on the air and talk about them and talk
about them in a way that can be easily digestible
for people. And I kind of want to take us
back to COVID, which is, you know where we started,
where we where we started being in conversation around that time,
and just kind of what did you what do you
(05:48):
feel like you learned, you know, back way back in
twenty twenty, you know, being on air every week, Like,
what did you What could you say that you took
away from COVID?
Speaker 2 (06:01):
I would say three things. So we started during COVID,
and number one was just that we were in an
information vacuum, and so it was a scramble every week
just to get the most updated information even though nobody knew,
but we were, we were ahead of It's just funny
how it was a real eye opener for how information travels.
You know, I have my networks of experts, you have
(06:23):
your networks, but we were often ahead of the game
of a medical journal that had to wait a year
to publish things. But you know that kind of thing.
And so there was so much of a we're in
a really almost a kind of libertarian moment, you know,
about how information's read, and so the power of this
kind of media I thought was really powerful, both in
(06:47):
terms of the information we were giving people, but also
like just what we were learning and how quickly we
were getting it out out there. I mean, the risk
is you have to be really careful not to tell
people to like drink draino or the other shit that
Trump was saying, but or lightsol or whatever it was.
But but it's just you know, I think that it
(07:08):
was certainly a part of like that here's here's how
we're getting information out So that to me, that was
it is we would kind of touch base every week
and figure out what are you learning? Because nobody knew.
It was almost like the information underground.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
Yeah, And I feel like we were also able to
just be you know, honest with the audience about our
own fears about what was happening, right, because while we
were busy being on air trying to convey information, as
we were receiving that information and trying to process it
(07:42):
and then relay it out to the audience, there was
also like just a lot of shit of dealing with
the fact that it could this be it? Right, Like,
we're in the middle of this health pandemic and you know,
we had no idea how long it was going to last.
And you know, we're not leaving our homes where you know,
we're watching cardboard, We're doing all of these things and
(08:06):
and yet still trying to maintain some normalcy by being
in conversation. And I think that you know, and I
know that a lot of people have been super grateful
for you in being able to keep them same and
keep them kind of gathered in themselves as we were
going through because you were, you know, they're the trusted
(08:27):
doctor that they could talk to, you know, listen to
every week and feel like there was some connection to
normalcy in that way well.
Speaker 2 (08:38):
And I think another part of this is just that that,
you know, we were building community in a particular way,
we were building we were building community because we didn't
all know. So it was also about support, and you know,
we thought it was the end, but now it turns
out this is the end now, So we're just we
(08:59):
were just a little bit early.
Speaker 1 (09:01):
We were just a little bit early. And you know,
and during that time of twenty twenty when we got
on air, obviously you mentioned Donald Trump and Donald Trump
being president, you also are our resident you know, gun expert, right,
and the gun violence that visited this country over the
last I mean, I don't even know, do you keep like,
(09:24):
do you know how many horrific you know, acts of
mass shootings and gun violence that has happened that at
least you know, over the last several years.
Speaker 2 (09:36):
Well, I mean, I mean, yeah, one every day, honestly.
But the other part is just the other part is
just we kind of talked so much on the show
about the bigger implications of gun politics, like, for me,
the issue of Elon Musk starting to talk about the
(09:56):
Second Amendment when he very clearly did not give two
shits about it. But it was about like power, anti democracy,
bigger issues that tied in. So guns were also, as
we talked about in the book launch, and all these
things just so clearly tied into much bigger issues having
to do with governance and judiciary and things like that.
(10:20):
So I mean, I just I can remember nine thousand
shows we did about mass shootings and also many more
shows we did about how the gun issue was being
tied to the judiciary and to judges and all these
other kind of factors that we talked about a lot.
Speaker 1 (10:39):
How do you think that people have come to understand
the epidemic, the pandemic, whatever it is that you want
to call it, of gun violence in this country now
versus when we first started.
Speaker 2 (10:54):
Well, I think, you know, it's interesting, like I gave
the keynote or one of the keynotes at the Public
Health Gun Violence Association meeting last week with two big
time gun scholars who were who were people who I
never would have thought I was on the same side
(11:15):
about like in the beginning of the whole thing, like
I was critical, I was you know, they thought, oh
my god, this guy's coming after us or something like that.
And so part of the story was I think there's
been a coming together, like the fact that I was
able to give a keynote of this thing and we
had this thing and they were on my panel and
they said, you know, we agree, we need a bigger
political strategy. So I think people are starting to realize
(11:38):
that that I think, I think the arguments, I think
the argument's coming Doe. But you know, so now it's good.
We'll kind of go from there.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
Yeah, I just you know, look, we're coming off of
the school shooting in Madison, Wisconsin. I don't know how
many shootings that we've had this year, but I would
assume that it is, you know, in the hundreds. And
you know, I wonder because your your book, you know,
(12:08):
came out this year, what we've become. You've gone around
the country speaking to people about reframing our argument. How
do you think that has fallen on people? And do
you see what what does the movement look like moving forward?
(12:28):
Knowing that Donald Trump is weeks away from taking office,
I hope.
Speaker 2 (12:32):
We get there, honestly. I mean, that's my biggest help
is that we get there. Because yelling about background checks,
which we do after every shooting as an impulse, which
is important, but it's just not going to get us
to where we need to be. We need, we need
to come prepared with understanding how to win elections and
then how to seat judges. And I think, you know,
(12:53):
as much as I respect the work that stuff like
background checks do, it's it's just it's not it's not
the answer to the threat we're facing right now. Background
Checks are point of sale gun checks, so when you
buy a gun, you go through a background check. Thirty
five hundred million guns out there, so you could stop
selling guns tomorrow, which is never going to happen, and
(13:14):
it still wouldn't really matter. And so you know, we
need a more holistic, top to bottom strategy. And I
do worry I see a lot of people making the
mistake of thinking, if we just shout louder next time,
it'll get us there. But I really hope that's not
where we come to. I think we need to be
much more unified and strategic about this issue. But this
(13:36):
issue is such a metaphor for so many other issues.
Speaker 1 (13:39):
What do you think is what is most concerning you
about this incoming Trump two point zero administration.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
We talked about this, I think last week, but that
idea that basically the opposite of to be in the
political opposition. People are just really tired and they feel
like the system's not working for them, and they feel
like it's overwhelming, and it it doesn't matter who you
vote for. Elon Musk can overturn your entire economy with
(14:12):
two hours of tweeting, And so it feels hopeless and
people start to check out. And I know from having
studied other places that kind of go down the path
that we are potentially going down. It's when people start
to become exhausted, they become complacent. But the other issue
is the old methods of protests and resistance are not
(14:37):
going to work. I mean, doing a women's march right
now is not going to work. You know, it's it's
it's we need a new strategy that is a much
more strategic strategy that involves more money, more people. And also,
I mean, if we're serious about speaking, for example, to
the interests of working class people, we can't just shout
louder about things that they already know about. We actually
(14:58):
need a new plate. And so you know, something's going
to emerge. I hope something. I hope something is going
to emerge, and I hope it's I hope it's a
new thing that is more on the ground and less.
You know, we won the social media a wars for
a while there, but we didn't win the convince people
(15:19):
that we have their best heart passengers in my mind thing,
So I think we're going to need a new playbook,
and I think that's what's emerging right now.
Speaker 1 (15:27):
Are there any opportunities that you see inside of the
obstacles in front of us in this incoming administration?
Speaker 2 (15:33):
Yeah, people realize we're on the same side, and you
know who knows, you know who who knows? I mean again,
like when to be honest, when Trump won, I thought, well,
you know, I got to live with this for the
next four years. I hope he does a good job.
I really do. Like it's not like I want him
to fail for four years and everything to fall apart
(15:54):
so that I can win some more argument. I want
the economy to do well. And then when he started
making the appointments and doing all this stuff, you know,
I thought, man, I don't know, So I don't know.
I mean, my concern is that our system is like
wanting the other side to do bad. So you can
(16:14):
point everybody and say, look, how shitty. They are swinging
on this pendulum, and there's some serious things at play
right now, right like getting it's easy to bluster your
way into a trade war. It's really hard to manage
and get out of a trade war, or when a
trade war. So we're blustering our way into some really
complicated stuff, and I just hope he's got like the
right brilliant minds to navigate this.
Speaker 1 (16:37):
Jonathan, you have seen who he is appointing, So which
one of them is bright and brilliant?
Speaker 2 (16:44):
The job of the hut? The secretary of Labor. Yeah, Now,
I don't know. I'm just saying I'm making a point,
which is that it's going to be important at some
point to have qualified people. So who knows how long
this cabinet will? You know, I was being a little.
Speaker 1 (17:02):
Bit ironic, I think, So I do want to ask you.
You know, you've mentioned it a couple of times. People
are exhausted, People are finding themselves in a place of hopelessness,
and what comes with that is that people tune out.
And I think to a certain extent it is important
(17:23):
to tune out. I don't think that you can follow
everything that this administration is going to be doing and
your mental health stay intact, Like I don't. I don't
think that that is going to be possible. But what
recommendations do you have for people to keep their wits
about them as the circus comes to town?
Speaker 2 (17:44):
You know? Again, I think, believe it or not, Fetterman
is right about this. Pick your battles, be really strategic
about your battles. Think about the strategy of our positions.
You know, I just think we're kind of a leaderless
organization right now, and we're new a little bit of direction,
and so there's a lot of you know, are we
(18:05):
for or against murdering a healthcare CEO? Are we for
or against like all things? I don't know. We're just
like all over the place right now about like things
like that. So I think we're trying to figure out
like what we're about, But it's not going to be
something we know. In other words, if we yell louder.
I believe this, and all my research shows if we
yell louder about medicare for all, or if we yell
(18:26):
outder about common sense gun reform, it's not going to
convince more people. If we become more centrist, we lose
people on the left. So we need some kind of
thing that's not you know, that takes a reckoning, It
looks in a mirror of how we got here, and
then thinks about ways. There was a really, I thought
good article in the Atlantic about how politics is the
(18:49):
game of persuasion, and right is really good at persuading people,
and the left is falling into trap of kind of
moralizing people, and so we need to get back in
the persuasion game a little bit more. I just think
about in my book, for example, the one guy who said,
you think, if you just yell louder, I'm going to
(19:10):
know your points. But I understand your points already, and
I don't agree with them, and so we you know.
So again, I think we're gonna have to think about
our playbook, think about how to broaden our coalitions and
build from there. And then also, as much as possible,
save all the archives of our institutions that are about
(19:31):
to be taken apart.
Speaker 1 (19:34):
All right, last thing for you is, you know what
are you most looking forward to in twenty twenty five?
Speaker 2 (19:44):
My softball team is going down to Mexico. We're playing
if they'll have us, I guess from local Mexican teams.
I'm doing a lot of like different traveling and stuff
like that, and so I hope things don't implode. Honestly,
I think Vanderbilt's doing some pretty incredible things right now.
I think there are there's progress happening in a lot
(20:06):
of places in this country, and I just hope doesn't
get arrested stopped. I meant too much.
Speaker 1 (20:11):
All right, Well, my dear friend, I cannot thank you
enough for all of these years, for all of these conversations,
and I look forward to seeing you in the new year,
and you know, figuring out a way that we continue
talking because it has been that has really been an honor,
(20:37):
and I genuinely mean that.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
Very much the same for me, And thank you to
everyone out there who followed along.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
I appreciate you. That is it for me today, dear friends,
on woke app as always, power to the people and
to all the people. Power, get woke and stay woke.
As fun
Good morning, Peepsen, and welcome to ook F Daily with
Me your Girl, Daniel Moody recording from the Home Bunker. Folks,
it is a bittersweet that wok F is winding down.
I'm going to dedicate a solo show that you will
(00:33):
listen to over the holidays on my reflections over the
last seven years of helming this show and speaking and
creating an audience with all of you. But I couldn't
have done this show without the consistency of the presence
(00:56):
of doctor Jonathan Metzel, who for four years has shown
up each and every week to engage in conversation with me,
with all of us, and just to think about, you know,
just think about it for a moment, what we've been
through as a country over the last four years, what
(01:20):
you've been through personally over the last four years. It's
wild to kind of wrap your mind around. And I
have found such solace and hopefulness in the grounding conversations
that I've been able to have with Jonathan over the
(01:40):
last several years. And I think that his insight has
been invaluable and I have appreciated it so very much,
And it is just I can't believe that this is
our last interview on WOKF and so today we just
take some time to we're reflect on what has transpired
(02:02):
over the last four years, what we've learned and you know,
and give thoughts to how we move in twenty twenty five.
So I really hope that you enjoy this conversation, this
last conversation on WOKF with our friend, our in house doctor,
(02:24):
doctor Jonathan Metzel. Uh So, folks, I am this is
this is so crazy. Uh For four years, for four years,
uh doctor, our in house doctor, doctor Jonathan Metzl has
(02:44):
been in conversation on WOKF daily and today is our
final interview on WOKF. Which is so wild, Jonathan, it's
wiping tears from his eyes. Is so wild to think
about the hours Jonathan, that you and I have spent
(03:08):
together on air. I first off just want to thank
you for all of your time, for all of your
analysis over the years, which has just been like priceless.
But I guess I want to start off with you know,
some of your reflections over over time together.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
Well, I mean, think about what's happened to like our lives,
our everything, like you know, so so much has happened
just in the world globally and personally, and so it's
great to have a consistent friendship above all else that
kind of sees you through all of these ups and
downs about elections and global shit and relationships and breakups
(03:56):
and everything else. Like we've become really good friends. This
love I love that part, and so that part has
been so meaningful, and there are days where we have
it's funny to think about, like when we first started
doing this, Yeah, we would spend quite a bit of
time working on the you know before like what's the
agenda and where the points that we're to get hit.
(04:18):
And then about halfway through we realized, like, okay, just
turn on the damn camera.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
We'll figure it out the microphone and we'll figure it out.
Speaker 2 (04:24):
Because we just figured out that like we had, we
had just gotten this like lovely I think resonance. So
for me, that's that beside any like one thing. I mean,
we've seen ups and downs. Most of America I think
now realizes we warned them pretty much about every single
thing that was going to happen. We predicted a lot
of shit here that I ended up happening. And uh,
(04:46):
but but but but even beyond that, we just created
such a nice vibe, I think, And so I'm the
most grateful for the fact that we got so comfortable
that we would just be like, hey, hey, okay, turn
on look on the bikephone, you know that kind of thing.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
Yeah, because I think that, you know, over the last
several years, like it is wild, honestly to think about
what we've been through as a country, but also what
we've been through personally in our personal lives, like you
bring up. But at some point we just realized, well,
we're reading and watching the same things, so let's just
(05:24):
get on the air and talk about them and talk
about them in a way that can be easily digestible
for people. And I kind of want to take us
back to COVID, which is, you know where we started,
where we where we started being in conversation around that time,
and just kind of what did you what do you
(05:48):
feel like you learned, you know, back way back in
twenty twenty, you know, being on air every week, Like,
what did you What could you say that you took
away from COVID?
Speaker 2 (06:01):
I would say three things. So we started during COVID,
and number one was just that we were in an
information vacuum, and so it was a scramble every week
just to get the most updated information even though nobody knew,
but we were, we were ahead of It's just funny
how it was a real eye opener for how information travels.
You know, I have my networks of experts, you have
(06:23):
your networks, but we were often ahead of the game
of a medical journal that had to wait a year
to publish things. But you know that kind of thing.
And so there was so much of a we're in
a really almost a kind of libertarian moment, you know,
about how information's read, and so the power of this
kind of media I thought was really powerful, both in
(06:47):
terms of the information we were giving people, but also
like just what we were learning and how quickly we
were getting it out out there. I mean, the risk
is you have to be really careful not to tell
people to like drink draino or the other shit that
Trump was saying, but or lightsol or whatever it was.
But but it's just you know, I think that it
(07:08):
was certainly a part of like that here's here's how
we're getting information out So that to me, that was
it is we would kind of touch base every week
and figure out what are you learning? Because nobody knew.
It was almost like the information underground.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
Yeah, And I feel like we were also able to
just be you know, honest with the audience about our
own fears about what was happening, right, because while we
were busy being on air trying to convey information, as
we were receiving that information and trying to process it
(07:42):
and then relay it out to the audience, there was
also like just a lot of shit of dealing with
the fact that it could this be it? Right, Like,
we're in the middle of this health pandemic and you know,
we had no idea how long it was going to last.
And you know, we're not leaving our homes where you know,
we're watching cardboard, We're doing all of these things and
(08:06):
and yet still trying to maintain some normalcy by being
in conversation. And I think that you know, and I
know that a lot of people have been super grateful
for you in being able to keep them same and
keep them kind of gathered in themselves as we were
going through because you were, you know, they're the trusted
(08:27):
doctor that they could talk to, you know, listen to
every week and feel like there was some connection to
normalcy in that way well.
Speaker 2 (08:38):
And I think another part of this is just that that,
you know, we were building community in a particular way,
we were building we were building community because we didn't
all know. So it was also about support, and you know,
we thought it was the end, but now it turns
out this is the end now, So we're just we
(08:59):
were just a little bit early.
Speaker 1 (09:01):
We were just a little bit early. And you know,
and during that time of twenty twenty when we got
on air, obviously you mentioned Donald Trump and Donald Trump
being president, you also are our resident you know, gun expert, right,
and the gun violence that visited this country over the
last I mean, I don't even know, do you keep like,
(09:24):
do you know how many horrific you know, acts of
mass shootings and gun violence that has happened that at
least you know, over the last several years.
Speaker 2 (09:36):
Well, I mean, I mean, yeah, one every day, honestly.
But the other part is just the other part is
just we kind of talked so much on the show
about the bigger implications of gun politics, like, for me,
the issue of Elon Musk starting to talk about the
(09:56):
Second Amendment when he very clearly did not give two
shits about it. But it was about like power, anti democracy,
bigger issues that tied in. So guns were also, as
we talked about in the book launch, and all these
things just so clearly tied into much bigger issues having
to do with governance and judiciary and things like that.
(10:20):
So I mean, I just I can remember nine thousand
shows we did about mass shootings and also many more
shows we did about how the gun issue was being
tied to the judiciary and to judges and all these
other kind of factors that we talked about a lot.
Speaker 1 (10:39):
How do you think that people have come to understand
the epidemic, the pandemic, whatever it is that you want
to call it, of gun violence in this country now
versus when we first started.
Speaker 2 (10:54):
Well, I think, you know, it's interesting, like I gave
the keynote or one of the keynotes at the Public
Health Gun Violence Association meeting last week with two big
time gun scholars who were who were people who I
never would have thought I was on the same side
(11:15):
about like in the beginning of the whole thing, like
I was critical, I was you know, they thought, oh
my god, this guy's coming after us or something like that.
And so part of the story was I think there's
been a coming together, like the fact that I was
able to give a keynote of this thing and we
had this thing and they were on my panel and
they said, you know, we agree, we need a bigger
political strategy. So I think people are starting to realize
(11:38):
that that I think, I think the arguments, I think
the argument's coming Doe. But you know, so now it's good.
We'll kind of go from there.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
Yeah, I just you know, look, we're coming off of
the school shooting in Madison, Wisconsin. I don't know how
many shootings that we've had this year, but I would
assume that it is, you know, in the hundreds. And
you know, I wonder because your your book, you know,
(12:08):
came out this year, what we've become. You've gone around
the country speaking to people about reframing our argument. How
do you think that has fallen on people? And do
you see what what does the movement look like moving forward?
(12:28):
Knowing that Donald Trump is weeks away from taking office,
I hope.
Speaker 2 (12:32):
We get there, honestly. I mean, that's my biggest help
is that we get there. Because yelling about background checks,
which we do after every shooting as an impulse, which
is important, but it's just not going to get us
to where we need to be. We need, we need
to come prepared with understanding how to win elections and
then how to seat judges. And I think, you know,
(12:53):
as much as I respect the work that stuff like
background checks do, it's it's just it's not it's not
the answer to the threat we're facing right now. Background
Checks are point of sale gun checks, so when you
buy a gun, you go through a background check. Thirty
five hundred million guns out there, so you could stop
selling guns tomorrow, which is never going to happen, and
(13:14):
it still wouldn't really matter. And so you know, we
need a more holistic, top to bottom strategy. And I
do worry I see a lot of people making the
mistake of thinking, if we just shout louder next time,
it'll get us there. But I really hope that's not
where we come to. I think we need to be
much more unified and strategic about this issue. But this
(13:36):
issue is such a metaphor for so many other issues.
Speaker 1 (13:39):
What do you think is what is most concerning you
about this incoming Trump two point zero administration.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
We talked about this, I think last week, but that
idea that basically the opposite of to be in the
political opposition. People are just really tired and they feel
like the system's not working for them, and they feel
like it's overwhelming, and it it doesn't matter who you
vote for. Elon Musk can overturn your entire economy with
(14:12):
two hours of tweeting, And so it feels hopeless and
people start to check out. And I know from having
studied other places that kind of go down the path
that we are potentially going down. It's when people start
to become exhausted, they become complacent. But the other issue
is the old methods of protests and resistance are not
(14:37):
going to work. I mean, doing a women's march right
now is not going to work. You know, it's it's
it's we need a new strategy that is a much
more strategic strategy that involves more money, more people. And also,
I mean, if we're serious about speaking, for example, to
the interests of working class people, we can't just shout
louder about things that they already know about. We actually
(14:58):
need a new plate. And so you know, something's going
to emerge. I hope something. I hope something is going
to emerge, and I hope it's I hope it's a
new thing that is more on the ground and less.
You know, we won the social media a wars for
a while there, but we didn't win the convince people
(15:19):
that we have their best heart passengers in my mind thing,
So I think we're going to need a new playbook,
and I think that's what's emerging right now.
Speaker 1 (15:27):
Are there any opportunities that you see inside of the
obstacles in front of us in this incoming administration?
Speaker 2 (15:33):
Yeah, people realize we're on the same side, and you
know who knows, you know who who knows? I mean again,
like when to be honest, when Trump won, I thought, well,
you know, I got to live with this for the
next four years. I hope he does a good job.
I really do. Like it's not like I want him
to fail for four years and everything to fall apart
(15:54):
so that I can win some more argument. I want
the economy to do well. And then when he started
making the appointments and doing all this stuff, you know,
I thought, man, I don't know, So I don't know.
I mean, my concern is that our system is like
wanting the other side to do bad. So you can
(16:14):
point everybody and say, look, how shitty. They are swinging
on this pendulum, and there's some serious things at play
right now, right like getting it's easy to bluster your
way into a trade war. It's really hard to manage
and get out of a trade war, or when a
trade war. So we're blustering our way into some really
complicated stuff, and I just hope he's got like the
right brilliant minds to navigate this.
Speaker 1 (16:37):
Jonathan, you have seen who he is appointing, So which
one of them is bright and brilliant?
Speaker 2 (16:44):
The job of the hut? The secretary of Labor. Yeah, Now,
I don't know. I'm just saying I'm making a point,
which is that it's going to be important at some
point to have qualified people. So who knows how long
this cabinet will? You know, I was being a little.
Speaker 1 (17:02):
Bit ironic, I think, So I do want to ask you.
You know, you've mentioned it a couple of times. People
are exhausted, People are finding themselves in a place of hopelessness,
and what comes with that is that people tune out.
And I think to a certain extent it is important
(17:23):
to tune out. I don't think that you can follow
everything that this administration is going to be doing and
your mental health stay intact, Like I don't. I don't
think that that is going to be possible. But what
recommendations do you have for people to keep their wits
about them as the circus comes to town?
Speaker 2 (17:44):
You know? Again, I think, believe it or not, Fetterman
is right about this. Pick your battles, be really strategic
about your battles. Think about the strategy of our positions.
You know, I just think we're kind of a leaderless
organization right now, and we're new a little bit of direction,
and so there's a lot of you know, are we
(18:05):
for or against murdering a healthcare CEO? Are we for
or against like all things? I don't know. We're just
like all over the place right now about like things
like that. So I think we're trying to figure out
like what we're about, But it's not going to be
something we know. In other words, if we yell louder.
I believe this, and all my research shows if we
yell louder about medicare for all, or if we yell
(18:26):
outder about common sense gun reform, it's not going to
convince more people. If we become more centrist, we lose
people on the left. So we need some kind of
thing that's not you know, that takes a reckoning, It
looks in a mirror of how we got here, and
then thinks about ways. There was a really, I thought
good article in the Atlantic about how politics is the
(18:49):
game of persuasion, and right is really good at persuading people,
and the left is falling into trap of kind of
moralizing people, and so we need to get back in
the persuasion game a little bit more. I just think
about in my book, for example, the one guy who said,
you think, if you just yell louder, I'm going to
(19:10):
know your points. But I understand your points already, and
I don't agree with them, and so we you know.
So again, I think we're gonna have to think about
our playbook, think about how to broaden our coalitions and
build from there. And then also, as much as possible,
save all the archives of our institutions that are about
(19:31):
to be taken apart.
Speaker 1 (19:34):
All right, last thing for you is, you know what
are you most looking forward to in twenty twenty five?
Speaker 2 (19:44):
My softball team is going down to Mexico. We're playing
if they'll have us, I guess from local Mexican teams.
I'm doing a lot of like different traveling and stuff
like that, and so I hope things don't implode. Honestly,
I think Vanderbilt's doing some pretty incredible things right now.
I think there are there's progress happening in a lot
(20:06):
of places in this country, and I just hope doesn't
get arrested stopped. I meant too much.
Speaker 1 (20:11):
All right, Well, my dear friend, I cannot thank you
enough for all of these years, for all of these conversations,
and I look forward to seeing you in the new year,
and you know, figuring out a way that we continue
talking because it has been that has really been an honor,
(20:37):
and I genuinely mean that.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
Very much the same for me, And thank you to
everyone out there who followed along.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
I appreciate you. That is it for me today, dear friends,
on woke app as always, power to the people and
to all the people. Power, get woke and stay woke.
As fun
Host
Danielle Moodie
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