Vaccines Are Dope

Discussing Covid vaccines and herd immunity with Dr. Kaveh Hoda.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Worst Year Ever, a production of I Heart
Radio Together Everything. So Welcome to the Worst Year Ever,

(00:23):
the year where we reminisce about the movie Hook every episode, well,
every week we record an episode reminiscing about the podcast Hook,
and then Sophie deletes it and makes us talk about
curryl Um because, as corporate says, nobody wants to listen
to the same idea as about the movie Hook repeatedly

(00:43):
every single week. From That's why we have the recorded
every single week. I just think that we're not giving
our audience the benefit of the doubt here to come
with us on this ride. I once saw the guy
who played Rufio at Yogurt Land go into town and
you want to talk about brightly colored food? Oh yeah,

(01:04):
and him, I mean, that's it, That's all I have
brightly But I did it. Did didn't want to start
a food fight. I didn't do They mean, if you
were going to pick a place to run into Rufio
Frozen Yogurt is like the way there you were, you
were with me. Okay, Cody was there, he knows what's up. Anyway.

(01:25):
This is an intro to a show call Hook. It's
called Hook podcast, Welcome, and every every year since the
movie Hook came out has been the worst year ever
because it did not feature the movie Hook. Right, Um,
if the movie Hook came out every year, UM, it

(01:46):
will be fine. There would be no need for this podcast.
All of our nation's problems problem solved immediately. Um, well
we should probably introduce what we're actually talking about today,
which is vac atable. But yeah, are recording this happen?
Is it? Okay? I just wanted to make sure it's
a real sloppy start. Sorry, that's my fault. That's all me.

(02:10):
That's all me. It's called professionalism and we sell at it.
So yeah, right in the Bible of how to be
a broadcaster is start every episode with an extended discussion
about Hook without half of the podcast being aware that
you've actually started the episode. That's just basic, basic broadcasting.
Walter Cronkite invented that. Did we even introduce? We sure

(02:36):
didn't come it. How are you doing Voda the Doctor? Yeah? Yeah,
thank you, right, thank you guys for having me back on.
It's it's nice too. I kind of aspire to be
your shows like Doctor Oz, but with even less credibility
achievement unlocked. Doctor. I was like, doctor, Um, so along

(03:02):
along those lines, then do you have any advice on
like just like what we should take, like just like
get just like a name right, like like things like food,
eat food and pain killers, like what the good stuff
and water and less processed food. That's about That's all
I have to offer you. If you do that, you're
probably good. Should I when I take my morning delotted?

(03:26):
Should I? Should I crumble up that first pill into
powder and rail it because I feel like that's healthier.
It's it's almost not fair to joke because I don't
know if I'm sure if you're joking, it's not possible
fair assessment. I have rules about pain killers, and the
rule is only in Mexico or Guatemala, Belize. Yeah, that's

(03:53):
a whole, other, whole other story. Um, we want to
talk about vaccines, Yeah, should we do it? We're all vaccinated? Yeah,
fully vaccinated. Podcast is not the time period, but like
we've all gotten our second shots, and I think my

(04:13):
time periods up tomorrow. Ye, thank you. Yeah, it feels
really good. Two weeks on on this Saturday since my
second So yeah, my two weeks went up on Saturday,
and then I went. I went to the hair salon.
So exciting, exciting, I'm cute again. So you've always been cute,

(04:38):
thank you. Um. So what we we wanted to start
by talking about vaccine? Yes we did, We absolutely started.
Let's just see how often we can derail each other
from getting started. It's like the old cracked team meetings.
I'm getting real slash yeah yeah, yeah, PTSD maybe. UM.

(05:01):
I think the first thing we wanted to start off
talking about today was this New York Times article about
how experts believe it's unlikely that we will reach herd
immunity in the United States. Um, you know, and that
the estimate being that in order to achieve her immunity,
we would need about seventy to the population will we vaccinated,

(05:23):
and we aren't going to be reaching those numbers fast enough. Um.
And there's a lot to be said about this, And
so I'll start with you Dr Oz Yeah. Uh he's
I'm Persian, just so you know, it's a big difference. Mr. Sorry, sorry,

(05:46):
that's that's on me. I brought that up. Um. I
am worried too. I am worried too, but I think
it can still be done. Uh. In a lot of
maybe you know, being a little naive, and a lot
of very smart scientists in doctors, uh are more concerned
than me. But I do think it's possible. But two
things need to happen. One, UM, we need to start

(06:08):
vaccinating kids. That's gonna be a major part of it.
And to it's gonna be a tough fight. Um, there's
a lot of people in the country that we're just
never going to reach. I'm not worried about those people,
but there are people that we can and um, I
think it's gonna be a struggle to get to those people.
And I think that's a sizeable chunk of the population.
I think if we can do those two things, I

(06:30):
do think it's possible. Now, the numbers have always been
since it started, people have been saying anywhere from so
I mean, I'm not too surprised. This is not shocking
what people are saying now, UM, but it would be
I think it's possible to get to I don't think
we're uh totally doomed, but it's gonna be hard. Yeah,

(06:51):
And what does it look like if we don't reach
those numbers? Like once our reality of this, because there's
a lot of scenarios that I've heard floated. But you
know what's well, what I think is the more concerning
thing is we don't get the numbers under control, and

(07:11):
then winter respiratory illness season comes along, and the country
as a whole, I think will still be better off
than we were last year, but there's gonna be regions
that just gets slammed. There's gonna be hospitals that just
gets slammed, and there's gonna be delay of care for people. Um.
And it's it's a real that's a real possibility. That's concerning. Um.

(07:33):
You know, this year we barely soft flu. My R
colleagues barely soft flu, and that's probably because of the
masks and everything else that we're doing. But when that
starts to relax, and when the CDC gives more guidelines
about what vaccinated people can do and less people wear
masks and we open up things, that's gonna be a
problem again. So if we don't have this under control,

(07:55):
the combination of all these things, it's it's gonna be
it's gonna be bad. Um do I think it's only
it's gonna be universally bad, but certainly be bad in areas. Yeah,
And I mean we're talking about the United States, but
that's not even taking into consideration internationally and worldwide. UM,
what is going to be happening. I mean, mutations are

(08:18):
a thing that we've talked about a lot and getting
to talk about, and in this scenario of not getting
enough people vaccinated. I know you can't predict the future,
but in terms of mutations, that is something to be
aware of and concerned about because they can start more
aggressively targeting different demographics or different age groups. UM, it
can change totally. I mean, we're lucky right now. The

(08:42):
mutations all seem to be relatively still controlled by the vaccine.
That's from from the studies that have been done so far,
largely like lab studies that show there's still antibody response. UM.
That's good, but that could change, and that could easily
change if there's a mutation that that comes around helps
that spike protein totally be evaded. So it's it's something

(09:04):
that we do have to really be concerned about, particularly
because it does seem like it's relatively quick that we've
come up with all these mutations. It's not uncommon, not
unheard of, it totally expected, and there will be more. UM.
But I mean it's happening as we speak. We're getting mutations.
Some of them are pretty significant, the South African one
in particularly a little bit more concerning. So, um, it's

(09:25):
another really important reason to to try and limit the
amount of reservoir we're making for this virus to exist.
And that's another reason I talk about kids. At some point,
we have to get kids vaccinated. So what's the hold
off on that? Like, I know that they're about to
authorize kids twelve to sixteen, which you know you wouldn't

(09:49):
it be possible to immunize large numbers of children via
some sort of paintball gun specially modified Like how how
realistic is that? I mean, we should make that like
a national event. That would be amazing, Like what's that
country in Italy or whatever? Or the city in Italy
that has like a big tomato fight every Yes, yeah,
like we could do that, but with vaccines. That's a
great idea. I was thinking get out the shot or

(10:11):
something I don't know, for adults to hunt children, but
only with weapons that shoot vaccines. Starts of yeah, I could.
I would rent a helicopter. It would be the best.
It would be such a good time. Um, it just
seems like a doable Robert's really looking forward to being
a parent someday. Yeah, it's a tough sell. It's already

(10:32):
kind of a tough sell to vaccinate kids. Yea, So
the helicopter hunting season that I think is going to
be tougher. But I mean, I think you might reach
some people, but not all people, not everyone you want.
Some people will definitely be learned in by that pitch
that those are the people we really want in positions
of power. Um I know it's I do think it's

(10:55):
I think it's really feasible that's gonna happen. You're exactly right,
twelve to fifteen year old. It's been um visor's studies
look pretty good, look pretty promising. I think it's very
likely that that will make a serious dent in this
if we can do it. But it's hard. You know,
people don't want to put their kids through something they
feel is experimental, it's not been well studied, but they

(11:17):
they as a concern for people. I understand that as
a as a parent, I get that. The there's the
argument is it's hard to make sometimes because it's true
kids they tend to not get as sick with this,
but they can. You know, kids still can, first of all.
And second, we're not going to get to this immunity
unless we get there, you know. And and the the

(11:38):
thing I try to emphasize when I talk about this
is that there was a whole separate study done just
to study this, and the major focus of the study
with safety, and it looks really safe. And so as
vaccines go for kids, I mean there was there was
it was really not only safe, but also seems to
be very effective too. So I'm hoping that once we

(11:58):
start getting that message out, and that's a messaging that
we're just starting to do now, I think I'm hoping
that we'll start to get more kids vaccinated. Have you
had sorry, guys, I just keep having these questions, jump
in whenever and wrestle me to the ground to get
your questions in. UM. Have you had a lot of

(12:19):
patients that you've spoken with about the vaccine UM who
are hesitant to get it? And I'm curious, you know,
I mean, you kind of touched on this on the
safety of it, but how you have or would talk
to people about it. I'll say, my nephew, he's twenty
and he called me like my you know, you know,

(12:43):
like so and so, so I have to get it
otherwise blah blah blah. But I don't know. I'm like
a free thinker and I don't want to I don't
know what this ship is like and what's gonna do
for me down the line, like like, am I going
to be kicked out of the family? And this is
one of the first times he's talked to me in
a long time. That's not true. He's a you know,
he's at that age where I'm his dorky aunt who

(13:04):
is a no at all, and he doesn't want to
hear it. So I was like, what do I do
right now? I don't want to blow it, and so
I tried to be very cool. Well, I totally understand
where you're coming from. Man, God, adults suck. But have
you know do you know about mutations? So anyway, when
adults are like, all right, I'm gonna try to say

(13:26):
this cool, I got really backwards on a chair and
wrapped with him. Yeah, don't blow this, stoll. You know
the original doctor eminem my doctor Dr Dre says yes,
to answer your question, I have I have spoke to

(13:47):
a lot of patients where there's been an issue like this,
but it's not just patients. Actually, I talked to doctors
and health care professionals who had no I know that's
a study came out in UM early March, and at
that point it's better now, but at that point, doctors
have had access to the frontline healthcare workers had had

(14:08):
access to the vaccine for months, and at that point
only about half had received at least one vaccination. There
was a lot of holdouts. A lot of people are concerned,
and the same concerns they have are the same that
seemed to be in the general population. The biggest one
that I hear. I mean, like again, there's just gonna
be some people who are falling on political lines. You're

(14:29):
you're not gonna get to them really very easily. Doesn't
mean we shouldn't try, but they're not the first group
we should aim for. There's going to be those that
just have conspiracy theories. That happens people fill in the
blanks with all these weird narratives when we don't have
all the information. So that's something I don't know if
we can do anything directly about just yet. But there
are these people who are just worried that it came

(14:50):
too fast. They're just worried that it came too fast.
And and I talked to them for a while because
that's the one I like, and it's been a good
like train for me in Zen to stop first when
these people have these hesitancies and just listen for a while,
which is like hard for doctors to do, Like they've
done these studies where doctors like listen to patients before

(15:13):
they interrupt them by saying something, and the doctors think
it's like four minutes long they do that, but it's
like seconds. So it's like I don't even have to
be a doctor to relate to this. I think that's
a problem in my own life. Let the person's finished
saying everything before trying to come in and fix it. Anyway,
I am interrupting to say that. No, So it's so

(15:34):
I listened to them first, and then I talked to
them about that because the truth of it is, it's
not like this came out of a vacuum. I mean,
people talk about m RNA vaccines like it just came
out of the oven, like right now. No one's been
working on it before then, But over a decade of
time has gone into the study of these things like
the zico virus, for example, or the first stars or rabies.
You know, people have looked at m RNA vaccines before,

(15:57):
so this is not totally brand new. And then I
also tried to plain to them you know, when you
throw enough money in manpower at a thing, it will
eventually get done. And that's what happened in this situation,
that a lot of money went into this, and not
just that. A big part of studies that makes them
take so long, that that that are hard is getting

(16:17):
people enrolled. And because so many people had COVID, it
was easy to test it, and because there's so many
people interested in these studies, it was easy to test
it and we enrolled people really quickly. So I mean,
it is impressive and it did happen fast, and maybe
calling it warp speed wasn't a great idea, but but
I mean it's not. It's not like it came out

(16:37):
completely out of the blue. It has We've had this
the background for this, and people very wisely and smartly
built on it. Yeah, yeah, that's what that helps. I
feel like that helps some people. I feel not sure
if that's gonna um penetrate my my nephews stubbornness. But
I think I'll give it a shot. That that is

(16:58):
really actually very helpful. And it might just the knowledge
that it feels like this is brand new because it is,
but it's not. It didn't just come from a void.
It's been worked on for a while. Right. So I
have a question that I I know I asked you
this question several months ago, um, but I'll ask it

(17:18):
for for the pot. I said, which vaccine should I get?
And why? And And the other question I asked was
does it matter more for my parents to get a
visor or Maderna versus a Johnson and Johnson? I I
know that I know the answer is you you told me.
But yeah, you know, it's still what you have available

(17:40):
to you. The best vaccine is the one you get
in your arm. But um, you know, now with the
pause on Jane ja Um, maybe if you have the option,
if you're a woman under the age of fifty, you know,
get one of the other ones. Um. But even if
you don't, or if that's you know, it's still okay,
I mean works great. You know the number seemed that
the safety has been checked. I think the pause was

(18:03):
a great idea by the way, and it gave me
more confidence in the whole process. So, um, you know,
I'm very happy with all three of them at this point.
And I'm not just I swear, I'm not just saying that.
I know, like people assume that, like there's like this
big meeting of doctors and like we're all just like
told to like say this. But the truth of it
is they were pretty transparent with the data, and so

(18:26):
we've been able to look over it, and I've been
able to look over it. I've been able to have
people way smarter than me look over it and and
and talk about and the safety stuff looks great. I mean,
so I'm I'm I'm very happy with it. I think
vaccines are dope. I'm just gonna say, and there you
can't you can't everything. Obviously, so quickly the world's attention

(18:57):
was on the development of this vaccine. It's where what pandemic,
But there are lots of other pandemics that have happened
that do not affect wealthy nations that perhaps have not
had the same attention or resource devoted to it. Um.
I just thinking a lot, obviously, especially with with India,
at the disparity of treatment and options for people throughout

(19:20):
the world. You know. Um, there's a reasonable question to
be asked, which is, you know, should we vaccinate kids
first or vaccinate the world? Um? And I think it
really just depends on what our stockpile of vaccines is
going to be like. UM. I think we're coming to
a point in the United States. We're pretty much here

(19:41):
already where we have enough vaccine for most places, and
it's about getting people interested. UM. So I'm hoping that
it's not either or situation, UM, And I think we
can do both. I think of nothing else. What this
has shown us is that in the future, UM, if
there's something that looks concerning happening in one part of

(20:03):
the world, it can affect everyone everywhere. I mean, the
pandemic is not over, for example here, until it's over everywhere.
And that what's happening in India is not just horrible
for India, which it is. It's catastrophic, it's bad, um,
but it's it's it's a concern for us to who.
I mean, there's all kinds of very variations of mutations

(20:24):
breeding out there, and these viruses. It's it's a concerning
for everyone. So I hope that changes our outlook long term.
We've talked about vaccine patterns between our two different shows
at different points and times. Um, it's all a blur.
And I'm curious on your your thoughts on that, because

(20:45):
I've everybody has been urging Biden two get on board
with opening up the patents. And then I've also seen
people argue, well seeing people Bill Gates, for one, uh,
making the case that this that doesn't solve an anything
because it's about production centers. But then there is the
case to be made that like, Okay, we'll open this

(21:05):
up so countries can develop their own vaccines or treatments
have the information and the resources available. And UM, I'm
curious if you have any thoughts on that and if
that would be helpful or or if it's even just
from the moral perspective, you know, yeah, I mean obviously

(21:25):
I would rather things go the Sulk route, you know,
where he you know, famously, what did he say you
can't put a patent on the sun or something like that,
same sort of concept here, it would be nice you
might as well try to patent the sun. I think
was his exact right. So I would I would love
to see that. I don't really see a great argument

(21:47):
for not doing that, not not opening it up, other
than just to make the companies a little more money.
But you know, these companies are smart and fighter and
Maderna there, They've built up a lot of goodwill because
of this, and I feel like they could easily capitalize
off of that alone, and they should be Okay, I mean,

(22:07):
what do I know. I'm not an economist, I don't
know any of that that stuff. But I feel like they
went into this, they did it right as right as
we could expect a major pharmaceutical company to do these things.
And if they if they can capitalize on that for
the future, and I don't see them making that much
more money than than at this point given all the
different vaccines coming down the pipeline to also considering Darren

(22:29):
I got a lot of money from the public to
do this right, right exactly. But I mean, yeah, Also,
Joe Biden literally promised that he would. He said it
worked absolutely positively to a direct question whether or not
he would do this. This is not a defense of
Joe Biden at all. Everyone so calmed down in advance

(22:51):
is it's solely up to him to make that choice,
you know, Like, but we could at least expect him
to be advocating and committing the United States to supporting that.
Um it's my understanding that he could, uh, all right,
we'll do this, alright, then fuck you. But as I

(23:15):
have another question that probably made sense when we were
talking a few minutes earlier. What about the people that
get their first dose and then they're like, you know what,
that's good enough for me, and then don't get there.
Yeah that's interesting. Yeah, it's not ideal. It's not it's
not ideal, and it's happening apparently more than we thought, right, Um,

(23:39):
and it's that is concerning, particularly because a lot of people,
I think heard that the second shot was worse than
the first, or they're concerned about the side effects. Um,
that is correct, though, Yeah you had a bad one time,
but yeah, I two is going to be so much better.
I mean, if I could take a third, I would

(23:59):
take a you know, Christmas time. You're totally right. I mean,
So that's interesting thing to me is for those of
us who got it back in December, in January, you know, uh,
when we're gonna have to re up and when we're
gonna have to take a booster or a different one.
Maybe it'll be a booster with some of these variants
placed into it. I don't know. So there's a lot

(24:20):
of different options for what can happen. I'm actually very
curious to see what what does happen? Do you have
any This is a surprise line of questioning, so you
don't have to have this information, but what is Because
I get confused of protection after one, because I think
that that's a lot of people even after one. I
was like, can I start to be a little looser?

(24:41):
Can I? It's like no, I can't, but like I
really want to go out. But you're thinking, well, what's
what degree of protection do I have here already? And
I think that that's where people fall into attractive like, oh,
this is good enough, right, there is some protection, you know,
maybe it's like fifties seventy in some cases, Um, they're
is some protection, but still not that nine beautiful nine

(25:04):
plus percent protection you get from Maderna and Fighter, which
is just like amazingly rare in a vaccine. They say
it's so great, So like it really is, I think
important to to get that second shot. That's the way
the studies have been done. That's all the data we
have is based on that, not based on the first shot.

(25:25):
And actually do know a number of people who got
actually COVID in between their first and second shot. That's
what I was getting curious about. Next. Yeah, I don't
I don't know the number, but they that had certainly occurred.
And by the way, I should also mention, you can
still get COVID after your second does About six thousand
or so people have gotten COVID since that their second

(25:47):
vaccine the two weeks afterwards. And I mean, granted it's
pretty mild or relatively mild from most patients, but eleven
percent of those ended up hospitalized and about one percent
still died. I don't know the details about those satitions
with the sicker to begin with. I don't know all
the information. But you can still get um COVID even
after this happens. Yeah, it's not some sure fire, vastly

(26:14):
improved statistics. Yeah, yeah, I mean, you're it's I think
about it the same way. And I'm sure that there's
a huge number of people who um aren't going to
get the second vaccine or aren't going to get vaccinated
at all, UM who own like a bulletproof vest or
something right, and it it is the same idea. I'm like, well, yeah,
there's a lot of people who die despite getting shot

(26:35):
with a bulletproof vest. I think you might get shot at,
you should wear one. It's the same idea with a vaccine, Like, yeah,
it's not a guarantee that you won't suffer or die
from this disease, but if the disease is out there,
you should get vaccinated because it vastly improves your odds,
like much more so than a bulletproof that anything anything

(26:56):
related to safety, literally anything. Yeah, and these situations, it's
the same thing you can talk about. There are some
people I'm sure that I'm sure there will be, as
with every vaccine, a non zero number of people who
get sick, um and die because of a negative reaction
to it. It happens, you know, it happens with a
number of vaccines. Um, there are people who get killed

(27:17):
by their seat belts. It, but that doesn't mean your
odds of of like you can look statistically at like, yeah,
here's here's a freak case where like somebody fell into
a river and their seatbelt they couldn't get it off
and so they drowned. But like here's a hundred thousand
cases of people who didn't die because they had a
seatbelt on during a thirty mile per hour collision. You know,
it's this is not an argument just about the welfare

(27:40):
of the community. It's about your personal safety as well.
So your risk benefit analysis is still better for you
personally to do it. Um, you know when you're younger, yeah,
you do better, but still you can get sick. There's
all these long term sequali of these COVID that we're
just starting to like learn about that you want to avoid,
and COVID if you don't, you know, have to go

(28:01):
to hospital for it can suck. It can be so brutal.
So like you, if you can take a simple shot
or two of that will get rid of that or
protect you at least in some way. I highly recommend it.
I mean, I don't think and I think most people
that are listening to your show, I'm assuming most of
these people were preaching to the choir. But if not,

(28:21):
please get your vaccine. Yeah, and just the whole thing.
I mean, I've seen a lot of people posting about,
like we should stop sharing the negative side effects that
we have after the second vaccine. If it's scaring people away.
And I get that, although I do think it's important
and helpful for people to know what's coming when they
get it or potentially coming. You might not. But the
reality is a lot of people have a really strong

(28:43):
and bad reaction to the second shot. Imagine if you've
gotten COVID, Like, imagine if you actually had it. There's
at least I have to think that it's worse symptoms,
it's more protracted and at least, what's a vaccine like
I didn't. I wasn't. I didn't have it the worst
if anybody. I had a very bad headache for a

(29:04):
couple of days. That's partly my physiology and how I
carried my tension and my reaction to being shot in
the arm. But I knew what it was because people
were talking about it. I knew that this was a
day it's going to be something. If you don't if
you don't share those if people don't know about it
and then they get the shot and then they have
these side effects, they'll go online and be like the

(29:26):
vaccine made me die, Like they'll they'll dig it, they'll
dig into the other side of it without knowing the information. Yeah,
I mean you're you're getting a lot of those stories
where someone is like, Oh, they died and they'd taken
the vaccine six weeks earlier. You know, this is clearly
I forget who that That former New York Times journalist

(29:46):
Alex Um. Yeah, he's been doing ship like that, like, oh,
if you get vaccinated and you die, uh, that's clearly
suspicious for the vaccine scene. Right. It's like he's going
through obituaries and being like, Okay, who got the vaccine?
There's there's no other cause of death than vaccine. It's

(30:11):
and it's it gets back to this the problem we're
talking about, like you can you can extend this to
seat belts and stuff, how bad people are at at
risk analysis and its statistics. Um, Because you we've vaccinated
tens of millions of people, any population of tens of
millions of people over let's say a one month period,

(30:33):
some of them will die and some of them it
will be unclear why they died, because that's just how
things are, you know, like it's it's it's the same
exactly right. The Safty data is really good, and you're
not hearing from all the people who had no significant reactions.
People aren't usually like me. Yeah, I didn't. I didn't post.

(30:54):
I don't think like that. Hey, I feel great after
my second shot. The joy I felt, the freedom I felt.
It sent enough endorphins into my body that like counteracted
any negative thing I was feeling at that time. A
year of stress and all that awful stuff I was
feeling like for you know, myself, my colleagues, and my
wife who works a lot more with COVID patients. That

(31:16):
stuff kind of it didn't vanish completely, but man, it
felt so much better. My arm felt kind of sore,
but that was nothing compared to the joy of knowing
that this year I get to go to Red Rocks
and lick the porta potties, which I have been looking
forward to for so long. Really, it's always talking about it.
Do we do an hour on Hook? We do an
hour on the show is so popular? Yeah? Yeah, we

(31:40):
really hit the two things that every every every gen
zer is talking about. Hook and just really getting your
tongue into the crevices of a porta John. Any any
porta John, but particularly the ones at music festivals. Yeah,
any any congregation, large congregation of UM. Do you think
there's anything so the communication I think from the media

(32:04):
and also from like our science communicators and and just
like how we've talked about this. Obviously the last president
didn't help, um, and there's this sort of adjustment now
in like almost like an over like you know you
see like, uh, the current president Biden out, they're wearing
a mask still after being vaccinated, all these sort of
things where he's sort of overcorrecting for what we went

(32:27):
through last year. Um. Do you think that's not helpful
or helpful or there ways like people in like Fauci
can communicate to people a little better about what what
we're doing. UM, I actually gonna say, I think they've
been Faucci has been barely good that you know, through
this thing. I mean he's had his issues, Um, and

(32:47):
then he wasn't right about everything. But I mean, yeah,
exactly nobody is nobody has been nobody. I mean, if
you look through this, this is been Um it's been
tough to gauge exactly how this is going to play
out for even the smartest epidemiologists. So I actually don't
mind that people are still wearing masks. I am vaccinated,

(33:09):
I still wear a mask, I'm out in public. I
love my mask. I love for solidarity, nothing else but
well and for the joy of I I love. You know,
I wear a gator style mask and mine is double layered.
It's not like one of those sheer ones. But I
just love walking into a gun store with a hat

(33:29):
and a face mask on and buying a weapon from
another man in a face mask. It's just you, didn't
you know. It's one of the things that's gotten better
since Code. The only thing really highlight you speak with
the I need to smile more. But I do understand.
I mean, I'm with you, but I do understand what
Code is getting at, which is partly because we talked

(33:52):
about it yesterday. UM is the messaging of do we do?
We want to be showing a message of if you
get vaccinated, you can return to more normalcy. Um. But
I will say that I personally feel, UM, it's important
and good to continue wearing my mask. I'm taking it down.
I'm not keeping it up at my entire walk outside.

(34:13):
If someone's across the street, like ten feet away, I
don't really feel like I have to, but if they
have it, I'm putting it up. And if somebody crosses
by me closely, I'm definitely putting it up out of respect.
And also, you know, I understand where the CDC was
coming from with saying that vaccinated people don't have to
wear their mask outside. I get that. I think that

(34:34):
a lot of us have those questions, but it's also
sending a confusing message universally. I hear exactly what you're saying.
I I think that we can show return to normalcy
via other things, like people. We have to show us
meeting with our friends who are all vaccinated. We have
to show that we're going out. I'm eating a restaurants
a lot now I eat outside. I still don't eat inside,

(34:57):
but outside. Yeah, and and not and it's great. I
get to meet other like people like from med Twitter
that I've never met before, and other doctors coming to
visit SF, and we go out for drinks and we'll
we'll post that a share of that, because I think
that's important. You know, that's how we show return to normalcy,
and we show that getting vaccinated will get you, that
get you able to hang out with people again and

(35:18):
in a real way, the like like a Biden guy
met with the Carters. Yeah because no masks indoors. Yeah, right,
A very little exactly tiny little carters. I agree, and
and um, but at the same time, you know what

(35:38):
you said really for me something actually really like and
actually I know this is kind of a silly thing,
but I like, walking down the street, someone else is
walking down the street. We both aren't wearing our masks,
but we see the other person coming, we both put
up our masks. I know it's a bit of a
silly thing, but it shows respect. And I think every
time it happens, I'm a little bit like my heart
gets a little warmer. I'm like, this person cares, you know.

(36:00):
It's a nice Yeah, there's a solidarity aspect to it,
and just like knowing like this is what we did,
is what we're doing. Um, right, and nobody knows for
sure I've been vaccinated. Nobody knows, you know, and I'm not.
I'm vaccinated. It's cool. I guess that's another tactic because
that's yeah, that's the that's the sort of transitional, weird,

(36:21):
confusing period we're in now where it's like you want
to have these sort of like social aspects of it,
and uh and the solidarity and sort of like out
of okay, we're still doing this, but also being able
to do these sort of things and uh communicate that
it's okay without getting you know, some unnecessary altercation or whatever,
right right, Yeah, yeah, I mean it's it. I have

(36:44):
been trying to work on myself by not scowling at
people when they're not wearing masks in places you should.
That's like something I am working on personally, scowl I
know that now together. Yeah, It's it's hard in Texas

(37:09):
because like there's there's so many places where people just
absolutely have have given up on the mask wearing it.
It's weird. It like heavily is neighborhood dependent and um.
But yeah, like I I commit to wearing them indoors.
Since I've gotten vaccinated, I've been looser even about wearing

(37:29):
them outdoors like I already wasn't when I would like
go running and stuff, because I'm not like I I
again part of why I have, like the next things
that I can pull it up if I happen to
get close to somebody as a as a just out
of politeness. But the data seems to suggest that unless
you're in a crowded public area outdoors, it's not really
all that helpful to be masked up when you're just
like walking around on your own and wherever. Um. And

(37:53):
I do think that's one of those things that it
is kind of valid to push back against this because
I think there are some folks who are overly um
sensitive about masking up outdoors to the point where it's like, well,
you're alone in a park, you don't you don't, and
and and maybe it's okay to like be like, hey,
we don't need to we don't need to be like

(38:14):
that aggressive about it, because that kind of feeds the
people who are like, well, they're just trying to keep
you in a mask all the time forever. And I
don't know, I I think a valid conversation to be
had about like what is what is protecting people? And
what is security theater? If if that makes any sense. Um,

(38:36):
not that you should shame anybody that you see in
a mask outdoors, but I think don't call yeah no,
no no. But I think that like, for example, when
we're talking about what could be useful for the president
to be doing or whatever, walking around outdoors without a mask,
I think is something that that can be normalized more now, Yeah,
I think so, I mean it's hard, I don't I

(38:58):
don't know what it's like in that situation Asian, and
how everything he will do will be twisted, you know,
if he wears a masks, if he doesn't wear a mask,
I don't, I can't even you know, and who knows.
I actually don't know why. I get one shot at
him walking on the grass, but I don't see him
like the thirty seconds later when he's like around a
bunch of soldiers who are you know, escorting him onto

(39:18):
a helicopter who don't have their vaccines or something, So
I you know, yeah, and it's a lot of it
is yeah, like you're saying, like sort of navigating the inevitable,
like right wing media talking point about this particular moment,
and like how that feeds into this and so pushing
back on that involves it's other like it's yeah, it's

(39:39):
a necessarily frustratingly complicated totally. I mean, it's interesting because
I agree with everything and would be saying. And I
also think, as we started this conversation today, a big
swath of America has not been vaccinated and doesn't want
to and or it has a lot of or we're

(39:59):
having a hard time convincing them. So my problem with um,
mixed messaging on masks is not about whether or not
I need him to be doing it right now. It's
whether or not our community is safe yet, you know,
And so I like, I why, I agree with everything
you guys are saying, and I see that point. There's

(40:19):
also um about as many people unvaccinated, more more than
that unvaccinated than vaccinated, and UM, they're still at risk.
And you know, is this the time for the president
to change his messaging? You know? But I don't know
the answer, because I totally accept other things you're saying,

(40:41):
in part because that that conversation. I think, I know,
in the case of Trump, because of how his followers are,
I think if he had made a point of publicly
wearing masks and supporting them, it would have made a
real difference. I don't know that it really does with Biden.
With Biden, right, is that too? You're right, You're right, right,

(41:02):
It's over correction from a guy who's like, yeah, right right.
I mean it it's hard because it's the messaging is
so muddled right now, and they've been trying really hard
to keep one focused message. So I think that's probably
what's happening that they're just trying to keep a focus
message and hammering that that message home. Um. But you know,

(41:23):
at the same time, you're right, we have to sort
of be a little bit careful. In the beginning of
this whole thing, we shut down like beaches and big
open areas because we didn't know the the best of
our knowledge, was the right thing to do. We probably
lost a little bit of public goodwill from doing that. Um.
But at the same time, I don't regret that it
was done because we didn't know. We were trying to
figure it out. In the long run, it wasn't that

(41:44):
long that those things were shut down. But it's true.
We we do have to sort of balance it. I
mean again, I think there's gonna be a population that
is just gonna be really hard to reach, and there's
a population that is very reachable and focusing on that
population and is the right move right now? And I think, uh,

(42:04):
a clear, direct, repeated message to those people is is
going to help. Yeah, what do I know? I don't know,
you know a lot, I know something, I know somethings.
Do you guys have more questions? How's it gone? How
you doing all right? How you guys doing hanging in there.

(42:25):
Are you guys going out to restaurants again? I am.
I went to one in Texas with my family who
are all vaccinated, um, and it still felt weird. Um.
I was not wild about it. Um. But it was
also like, I don't know what am I gonna do.
Everybody got vaccinated. Establishment. It's that situation where it's like, yeah,

(42:48):
literally all we're all vaccinated. Yeah, that's the situation, but
it is weird. It's been a year. Um, that's a
long that's a long time to completely change how we
interact with every other human being on the planet. I
told I told Katie this my first my my like
I said, I got my hair hair done, my first
like stranger interaction is being at the Airslana. I would

(43:09):
say seventy of the people were like, I'm not getting
I'm not getting the vaccine. Like my hairstyl was asking them.
I'm like, but but l A in l A, in
l A, like near u C l A. And they
were all and and they're all over fifty. They were
all over fifty and they were like, but that's are
you don't want to get enough. If something's gonna get me,

(43:29):
it's gonna get me, Wait, no, that's not you're in
the age where you're not Noway. But if they're so tough,
then why can't they handle a vaccine. That's the thing, like,
if you're so tough that you're just like, whatever happens happens,
unless it's a bad side effect from a shot, I'm
not going anything else that's gonna happen is going to
happen every ever. There's a lot about side effects that

(43:52):
I feel like people are hesitant to get the vaccine
because of side effects. But it's like it's temperate, But
what about the COVID side effects? Those are bad? Those
are bad everything. Those aren't even side effects, are just effects,
and they're bad ones. When I had a very minor fever,
I welcome up and I was like, yeah, let's do this.

(44:14):
I feel you're working exactly. It's gonna have a little response.
It's so frustrating. UM, I don't know. You know, I
saw yesterday that one of my someone I know in
the Iraqi Army got vaccinated. Um. And it was specifically
a person who never wore body armor. UM. And I

(44:36):
guess I was like, good for you. I'm glad your
cost benefit analysis extended to getting like, well, I'm not
gonna wear armor when I'm getting shot at, but I
am gonna get this. Yeah, okay, people, I mean we
all make baffling, like if you really analyze your own

(44:57):
behavior with the fine teeth comb, we all make baffle
a cost benefit analysis decisions. I think, like that's that's
that's the case for everybody, Like I am getting this vaccine. Um,
I'm I'm I carry a gun all the time, you know,
I take there's a number of weird self protection things
I do. But also like I don't give a ship

(45:19):
about cigarettes, Like I don't give a shit about and
I should, Like that's objectively more of a threat to
me than anything. Um, I didn't get like I didn't
wear a mask most of the time when the state
was burning down around me. You know, I've gotten tear
gas a bunch of times without masks. Like we all
we all make some sort of baffling health decision, even
if it's down to like, well, I'm gonna take all
this medication, but I'm not going to stop eating French

(45:40):
fries that have been fun like fried enough oil that
it's going to clog my heart. You can't. That's why
I think like, it can't be. It's it doesn't. Like
what matters isn't whether or not your own personal cost
benefit analysis is kind of um skewed. What matters is
whether or not you're willing to take actions that are
primarily about protecting other or at least have a protective

(46:03):
effect for other people, and getting vaccinated is one of those.
We can argue about a bunch of different ship and
like whether or not you should smoke or like should
we have consequences as a society for people who choose
to smoke, But at the end of the day, if
you're smoking on your own, there's only so many people
that can possibly affect, whereas getting vaccinated vastly reduces your
chance of harming another person in society. Um, yeah, yeah,

(46:28):
I'm convinced again. Anyway, get vaccinated and buy some cigarettes, Menthols,
the healthy cigarette. While you can just blow that smoke
into your mask and keep it there. Oh yeah yeah,
get a gas mask and smoke inside it, like really,
let it soak into the coors. That's how you keep
yourself healthy. You know, they zone every every doctor once

(46:52):
they started getting the vaccine. They posted these things on Twitter,
like a picture of them get a vaccine, and they'd
be like, this is from my community, this is so
I can hug my parents, this is from my patients.
And all those things are true and they're all accurate.
But what I wanted to post was I'm doing this
for me because I want this so bad. I want
to be able to go out, I want to feel comfortable.

(47:15):
I want some some sense of you know, normalcy to return.
And for me, it was the best way to do it.
But all those other things you're mentioning are totally true.
And yeah, affecting the community is huge. Yeah, I think
that that's true. Also, I think they're like there's an
element that people want to see that they want to see,
like no doctors are like, yeah, give me the tax scene.

(47:35):
Oh my god. Absolutely, I'll take it right now, right
in my eye if I need, if that's where it
needs to go, I would take it. Help me the
funk up? All right, Well, thank you so much for
joining us today, Dr Covs. Yeah, I don't know, No,

(47:58):
I've had worse. It's all right. Listen to his podcast.
Tell us where where they can find your podcast and
find you online so you can find us at on Twitter,
at the House of pod Um and I think we're
also on Instagram and our podcast you can listen pretty
much anywhere you listen to podcast. We talk about stuff
like COVID and health issues, but then we'll also talk

(48:18):
about stuff like systemic racism medicine, or sexual harassment medicine
and uh, all this fun stuff. And we'll have guests
ranging from like the world's greatest medical experts to every
single person that's on this panel right here, so the
world's greatest medical exactly. So yeah, come take a listen.

(48:40):
You'll like it. Yeah, you will joining us smoking again, well,
you can thank you, guys. Cigarettes so great. I tread

(49:02):
Daniel Worst Year Ever is a production of I Heart Radio.
For more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the I
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