February 27, 2017 • 46 mins
Everton Wagstaffe was wrongfully convicted of the rape, kidnapping and murder of 16-year-old Jennifer Negron in 1993. Everton’s conviction was based primarily on the testimony of Brunilda Capella, a 25-year-old, drug-addicted sex worker who claimed that she had seen Everton pull the victim into a Buick Skylark driven by Reginald Connor. It was later revealed, however, that the car had been parked at a church during the time that Capella claimed she had witnessed the kidnapping. The owner of the car testified that she had told the police this fact prior to Everton’s conviction, but the police didn’t write any reports of the interview. It was also revealed that Capella had been regularly providing information to the police at that time—remarkably, she testified for the prosecution in 20 cases. The Innocence Project consulted on the case and aided in testing foreign hairs found on the victim’s body for DNA, which revealed that the hairs had not come from Everton or Reginald Connor. The ruling to dismiss their charges, however, was primarily based on a revelation that prosecutors had buried evidence that Everton himself uncovered that police had targeted him before even speaking with the informant who provided critical testimony against the two men. In 2014, his conviction was ultimately vacated after serving 23 years in prison.
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
Everton wag Staff is a source of inspiration to me
that I am just super grateful to have. I his
talk that he gives at the end of the episode
You're about to hear, which was, you know, just a
stream of consciousness. Man. He dropped some knowledge that I
really needed to hear, and I think a lot of
(00:24):
other people do too, So please listen all the way
through to the interview I did with Everton wag Staff
back when it first aired on February two thousand seventeen.
The good news is finally, after suffering through over two
decades of wrongful imprisonment, Everton received a fourteen point six
(00:45):
million dollars settlement in June of two thousand seventeen. Everton,
you deserve all the happiness in the world and I
wish you blessings on blessings. You are a hero to me.
(01:07):
With the police banging on the door, open up, the
choice to be in that lineup was the last choice
I made as a free man. A year later, I
ended up right in the system. I'm going to be
one of those people who everyone in the world is
going to think as a monster or suspect as a
monster for the rest of my life, and I'm just
gonna have to come to peace with that. Somebody was
(01:30):
able to look at my picture in a database and
say that I was somewhere where I definitely wasn't. I
overheard three of the jailers discussing what part they might
have to play in my hanging. They had been told
that two prison officers would have to participate in my execution,
and I walked back inside that prison for the last time.
(01:51):
All hell broke loose, but Everton Wagstaff was arrested and
charged with the kidnapping, rape, and murder of a sixteen
year old girl, Jennifer n Gron in Brooklyn, New York.
Wag Staff and another man who he didn't know, Reginald Connor,
(02:14):
were both convicted for the girl's brutal killing. His arrest
and conviction were based almost entirely on the word of
a drug addicted sex worker, a heroin addict named Brunilda Capella,
who claimed falsely that she discovered the body. He spent
twenty three years behind bars, and spent even longer than
that fighting a legal battle against the justice system. Tonight,
(02:36):
this frooklymanity is finally free. Everton Wagstaff's Wrongful Conviction has
been overturn. He ultimately served almost twenty three years in
prison and survived based on an incredible positive attitude and
a will to live and persevere. He was exonerated in
two thousand and fourteen, and he's here today. This is
his story. It was so curious about coming to this
(02:58):
Colinsion America. A year later, I ended up writing the system.
Welcome back to another episode of Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flam.
Today's guest is the one and only Everton Wagstaff. And
you'll understand why I say the one and only after
you get to hear his incredible story and his unique
perspective and wonderful attitude about everything that he's been through
(03:20):
and about the world in general. Everton, welcome to the show.
Thank you for having me so, Everton. We have a
tradition here at Wrongful Conviction. We started at the beginning
and then we work through the whole story right to
the present, starting back at the beginning. You're originally from Jamaica, right, Yes,
and not Jamaica Queen's Jamaica, actually Jamaican Island, the Jamaica Island. Yeah,
(03:43):
I know, everybody's always giving you a hard time about
the Jamaican bobsled team. But that wasn't you. That was
some of the guys. Tell me about growing up in Jamaica.
First of all, did you have a happy life there?
What was it like? Yeah, it was happy. I grew
up with my grand pearance. We're pretty much have the
basic necessities. Weren't like in you know, for any thing,
you know, to live off the land, nothing to complain about.
It was really really well. And you came here in
(04:07):
your young twenties. What led you to make the decision
to come to New York It's a big change. Well,
you know what, I've always heard about America And I said,
whoa what was? And I was so curious about coming
to the scuntry. I've been seeing all these things. Had
you ever been here before? No, you've never been here,
and you just decided to move exactly pretty brave. And
you know I always curious about here. But a year
(04:29):
later I ended up writing the System. I mean unfortunately, Yeah,
I mean that's a rude awakening, like a very it's
not welcome to New York, right, exactly the opposite of welcome,
exactly exactly so so you were living in Brooklyn right
when you got here. Yeah, I was living in Brooklyn.
I re that in the Bronx with my mom, you know.
Did I live on my own in Long Island with
(04:51):
a former girlfriend. So you moved around a little bit.
And what were you doing to make a living while
you were here in the beginning? Well, I used to
do a little construction with my stepdad. He used to
be one of those guys that helped with the Brooklyn Bridge.
So you came to America in what year, late early nineties,
and a year later everything went wrong. Everything went wrong,
(05:12):
which is a crazy story. I mean, there was a
lot of crime in New York back then, and there
was a lot of pressure on the police to solve crimes.
And there was a terrible crime that happened at that time.
A young girl, sixteen year old girl was kidnapped, raped,
and murdered. So naturally there's going to be a lot
of pressure on the cops to resolve this and restore
(05:35):
some faith or some calm to the community. And they
ended up getting not only one wrong guy, but two
wrong guys. They ended up getting you and another guy,
and they managed to arrest and ultimately convict you without
any physical evidence, which is it's a crazy story. I mean,
we hear so many crazy stories. You're on wrongful conviction.
(05:57):
Take us through it. So where we're you? Did they
come and kick in your door? Or like, how did
you how did you end up getting arrested and what
were you thinking at the time. Actually I was on
a pay phone in East New York and and my
car came up and took me off the phone and
said that there and said it was going to take
me to the precinct to check something out. And that
(06:20):
was it. I ended up getting interrogated for this crime.
The asked me where I was between such and such
a time. At the time, it was nowhere in the area.
I was in Long Island. And he keeps saying that
I have a witness who can say that I commit
a crime and as Afford and so on, And I
tell him and I didn't come in the crown and
they have the wrong person. So they had been the
prison from at least from about twelve or eleven in
(06:42):
the afternoon until about one o'clock twelve one o'clock midnight.
So to put on this lineup to have this girl
came in, I know who it was at that time,
came in and they said I was identified as another
person who committed the crime. You know, I was like,
this is impossible. I didn't come in the crime. If
nobody speak, I was not in the era. It's that
you guys say I wasn't in the ear at the
(07:04):
time we were interrogted. You have a lawyer or anybody else? No,
and no lawyer, and so you're new in this country
and it's got to be totally bewildering and overwhelming. Did
they threaten you? Well, let then make a lot of
fun of me, because I told him that I needed
to speak to a lawyer, and they asked me who
I want? Want me to get that? Want me to
(07:25):
get to Kolbe and Mayas or something like that. For
those of you, for those of you who aren't from
New York to Phobean wires, it's sort of a punchline
because they're always advertising on TV anyway, That's why he
brought it up. So, yeah, so they're so they're making
fun of you. They're probably bored too, because you're in
there for twelve hours, right, So did they give you
anything to eat or drink? Or anything like that. So
(07:47):
you're just sitting in this room for twelve hours. They're
coming in and out and the typical interrogation, no videotaping, nothing,
But you didn't admit to anything. No, you know, I
wouldn't admit to something. I didn't do. No, And ultimately
the whole situation got really surreal, right because they were
(08:08):
so desperate it seems like in retrospect to get a
conviction that they went to pretty extraordinary lanes to frame you.
And talk to me about the other guy who was
convicted at the time, his name was Original Ecconna. Actually
didn't no Original Na, We're never a friend, never hang
out there or anything like that. Put us together. So
(08:29):
Reginald Cotton was your co defendant in the trial. He
also was convicted. I was wondering whether you guys had
even known each other, but no, it's just random. Were
you in jail awaiting trial? Were you out on bail
and Rockers Island and Rikers Islands, that's a hell of
a place to be in jail. Was it as bad
back then as it is now? It was worse then.
How long were you and Rikers awaiting the trial? About
(08:51):
a year and a few months ago. If you said
that very casually, it's a long time, especially in that place.
It was how much was bail it was? Then Bill
said nobody. Well, yeah, I guess it was a kidnapping
raym child. So yeah, they didn't send any bell. So
you're stuck there A year and a quarter goes by
and you're finally brought to trial. First of all, we
(09:13):
tried together or separately together with this guy who you
didn't know. Had you met him in Rikers? Was he
there as well? Actually when I went to court, that's
when I first saw him. I know that we were
charged to get it right. I didn't see We didn't
in the same facility when we were on the island,
so you didn't get to know each other at all
on the on the island. Knows when I went to
the court that I saw him there and I was
actually what's going on? And he was clueless, of course
(09:35):
he was because he was innocent too, exactly right. So
you're your partners in this nightmare, so to speak, strangers
who were thrown together pretty much, Yes, by this nightmare
of police and prosecutor and misconduct and various other factors
that led to you being stuck in this situation. You're
such a positive person and you have such an amazing outlook,
(09:58):
But when you went to trial, you must have been
somewhat skeptical because by now you had been you knew
you were innocent. It seemed obvious from everything that I
know about the case, it would be really hard for
even a corrupt system to say, let's put it on
this guy. I mean, they knew you were innocent. Did
you think that justice would be served or were you
(10:20):
at this point thinking I'm I'm going down. They're gonna
do whatever they have to do to get me. Actually,
when I was on let's reverse back back to Roca's Island.
When I was on the island, I pretty much I
wasn't really doing anything to help to clear myself. I
was just saying that they had a run in person
and eventually they're going to get it right before you
even go to inn trial. Because as I was said
to myself that I did not come into crime. I
(10:41):
think there's no person in the right mind who's gonna
come and testify to our crime. N I know that
I didn't come up. There's no way. So I wasn't
really doing anything. I was just like you know, just
like probably just hanging out, you know, young one years
or what. I was just hanging out there and say
they're gonna get it right until when I went to trial.
They actually had this um girl who actually it was
not in her right mind because she was an attic.
(11:03):
And let's talk about her for a minute, right, because
this is where the story gets really crazy. The witness
against you, it wasn't just some random person. It was
actually a heroin addict who was completely strong out, so
strong out in fact, that she had to be kept
in a locked room prior to the trial for three
(11:23):
days so that they would be sure that she would
show up and be somewhat sober in order to testify. Right,
we know now that she was used in up to
twenty cases. They would wheel her out whenever they needed
somebody to testify against, somebody who they didn't have any
evidence against. Here would come Bruneil did, the heroin addict,
(11:45):
and who knows what favors they were doing for her,
because we know back then in Brooklyn there was a
lot of framing going on. There were a lot of
deals being made with witnesses, which could have involved something
as basic as dropping charge against them, or even favors
that may have been done that would involve cash or
drugs or who knows, because this was a pretty big favor.
(12:08):
She was doing them to testify falsely and perjure herself
to help them resolve a case that they really didn't
want to have to deal with in the correct manner.
But the idea that this woman who was obviously morally
bankrupt and completely just out of her mind would be
used in twenty cases, I mean, that's something to really
(12:29):
reflect on and say. And and of course it would
require someone with oversight of the whole situation to be
able to tie all those together and go, wait a minute,
how lucky could she be that she witnessed twenty different murders. Incredible,
But you didn't know about that while you were rikers.
You didn't know that they were going to wheel out
this heroin and I could testify against you. So, in
(12:52):
other words, so you were actually and you had reason
to expect that you would be exonerated because you knew
they couldn't have an evidence against you. Didn't come out
a crime, so you still had faith in the system,
and you still thought you're going to go to trial.
They're going to figure out they made a big I
thought they wasn't going to go to a trial gonna
find out who come in to crime. I would even
(13:12):
to trial because I didn't come in a crime, right.
But the bad news is, as we know that when
they arrested you, they stopped looking for the guy. So
you go to trial together. How long did the trial last?
You had a court appointed lawyer, I'm assuming because you
didn't have money, right and was your lawyer? Did he
seemed interested? Was he competent? Was he at the time?
(13:34):
I thought he was doing his best, you know, because
I didn't know pretty much anything. I want to do
to show the system and the representation one but that
you should be getting. I just did he come to
the prison and meet with you and interview No, he's
shaking his head. Never know, you're looking at me like
I'm crazy, So he never came to interview you. I'm
actually not a lawyer, but I do have some common
(13:56):
sense and would seem like anybody who's going to represent
somebody in a case in which their life is literally
at stake, you might want to take the time, take
one afternoon and say, you know what, I'm gonna go
I'm gonna skip my golf game today and go over
to Rikers and see what the everything has to say,
see if he's got any information that might be helpful.
But that didn't happen. I guess when you're in the gen,
(14:16):
you know, you know I'm not unfortunate. We know that
public defenders are overworked, underpaid, overwhelmed. There are a lot
of very good ones, but you have to be lucky
to get one of those. It's almost like another it's
like a lottery, a haystack. Then comes the moment, so
the jury goes out, they come back in I fom
(14:37):
a guilty and second degree kidnapping because the judge initially
dismissed the murder to take away him because yesterday wasn't
evidence right, And and that's interesting too because the judge,
let's just reflect on that for a second. The judge
refused to submit the murder charge to sue because of
lack of evidence. That's very powerful words. So there was
(15:01):
no evidence of that, but he allowed the kidnapping charge
to go forward. There was no evidence to that either. Well,
the capella there was Phonia brunilda capella and other than that,
not only didn't they have any physical evidence against you
because there was no DNA, there was no blood, there
was no traces of any anything. But they also withheld
(15:22):
evidence that would have proved that you were innocent at
the time, and it took you a long time to
discover that, so the kidnapping charge goes forward. There was
a headband, right, so this was another phony piece of evidence.
There was a headband, a black headband, I believe that
was found in the car, which they claimed. Actually they're
saying that Crampston investigator discovered numerous items inside a car.
(15:46):
What this particular headband said belongs to the victim. And
one of the reasons why the prosecutors said it belongs
to the victim because they said that there was this
violence struggle in the car between me and the victim
and doing this violent struggle with the headbund was ripped
up as a result of the violent confrontation between me
on the witness, and the evidence proved that this car
(16:06):
is the car because of this headband. But probably a
months after the trial or so, the headbund was destroyed
because if it was kept into evidence, it would have
been tested that would have proven that did not belong
to the victim, but one of the one of his daughter,
and I think the prosecutors are the police knew this,
that's why they get rid of it. So there was
an evidence that even tests right. So let's just think
(16:27):
about this for a seconds. So there's a violent struggle
in the car. Obviously you can't see Everton, but he's
a big, strong guy, very muscular guy, and there's a
sixteen year old girl. So there's a violent struggle, but
there's no blood. There's no physical evidence here, but there's
a headband exactly. So you have to suspend a lot
(16:47):
of this belief to get to that point. But furthermore,
going off of what you said, later on, it was
discovered that the owner of the car, the same person
who said that the car had been at the church
service until five thirty in the morning, in which case
it would have been impossible for this car to be
used in the crime at the time that the only
witness said that it was. That same person also said
(17:09):
that that had been belonged to their daughter. So the
problem is they didn't turn that evidence over to the defense.
It was destroyed. It was destroyed, but it was found later.
I mean, they had an interview the evidence was destroyed,
but they had an interview with the owner of the
car which they did not turn over, and that had
to be discovered years and years later. Had they turned
(17:29):
that over, the whole case falls apart because of the
detective had well gone to her to her about her car,
and she told him that her car could not have
been using a Grammy car. She was using it at
that particular time. Anything that would have underminded people's case
was never turned over to us. Right. That's again, that's
where I really I just I have a hard time
(17:51):
processing that stuff. You know. It's like I don't understand.
I've never you know, I have a lot of respect
for law enforcement. I mean, we need we need a
justice system, we need prosecutors, we need cops. You know.
It's like when I was growing up in the seventies,
there was a bumper stick and said you don't like cops.
Next time you in trouble, try calling a hippie, right,
And so I'm very cognizant of the fact that they
(18:12):
play a very important role in society, and I have
a lot of respect for the fact that they work
and a dangerous job. Nobody's getting rich doing it. But
the bad guys, the bad actors in the system inflict
so much damage and the fact that they are able to, Like,
I'm trying to take myself inside the mindset of these
detectives who went to interview this woman learned at that
(18:35):
moment that you renascent as was Reginald and just chose
to ignore it because it was more convenient for them
to wrap this case up and move on with their lives.
And then they went home the eight dinner and did
whatever they did, play with their kids. And it's it's
a hard one for me. I don't know, maybe I
(18:56):
just can't. I'm never going to be comfortable with that.
But that's what happened. And now the jury comes back
in tell me about that moment. I'm sure my mother
was in the courtroom and the Julie Kimbuck and they
said that the reach a verse did the judge asked,
what was the verdict, kind of said I was guilty
of second degree kidnapping. My mom actually screaming within the
(19:20):
courth host and it was likely shocking. I mean, it
was totally unbelievable to me when you know, when when
I heard that, because I said, I didn't, you know,
I didn't come in to scraam who I hope could
I would? Could you? People actually found the guilty of
a crown and I know I did not come in
and I said, I was just like, let's just standing
like shock. Did you say anything? Did you? I just
(19:40):
tell it I did not come in the crime. You said, so, yes,
I didn't commit in the crime. And then they took
you away. So now your sins was twelve and a
half to five years. Yes. The problem with that is
(20:02):
aside from the fact that you were innocent and that
you shouldn't have been in the system in the first place,
the problem is that twelve and a half could actually
mean life because when you sentenced to twelve and a
half year eligible for parole after a period of time.
But in order to get parole you have to express remorse.
(20:23):
You have to which is essentially the same as admitting guilt.
And I want to get to that, but first I
want to talk about your experience in prison, because we've
spoken about it before and it's quite remarkable that you
are this joyful is the best way I can describe
(20:45):
your attitude about life. And I know from having spent
time with you and talked about your years, your decades
in prison, that you maintained an upbeat and positive attitude
through a situation that would have broken down a different man,
a different person. What did it? How did you do it? Well?
(21:05):
You know, I know I was innocent of this crime.
I know I had truth on my side. I know
that somebody was lying about this crime, and I know
it was not I wasn't the one lying about it.
Kind of it in a comment to crime. And I
always say to myself that I have to do something
about it, because we have to show that the truth
means something. If I just sit there and just didn't
(21:28):
do anything that means I would, it would be I
would be a betrayal to the truth. I mean, so
I had to do something, if it may not have
to sacrifice whatso be it. And actually at first I
didn't even pretty much have an medication about the judicial system,
the police reports and all these things. It's after having
gone through a lot of studying. I got books and
rent books because I used to work in a general library,
(21:50):
interlabrary loan books. I rent books on the outside, study
what PaperWorks mean what and all these things and try
to compare them under some contrast and and all these things.
And it was just doing this time that I actually
went and found those reports. And I tell myself that
I could not have just sit there and just like
show a pity party or anything like that. You know,
(22:10):
I could not do that. I have to fight. I
have to do what I have to do, and that's
the only way I would be I would have been vindicated.
And I went to the legal research course inside here,
I passed and get a paralegal certificate where I could
work in a lot of library and help are the inmates.
And while I was doing these things, this is the
are the things that actually keeps me going. I used
(22:30):
to read books and newspapers, article that came through the
lot of library and the general library. Where are the
people who were being vindicated enough crime that they didn't
come to commit? So it's these are some of the
things that I have seen that actually give me some
sense of hope because I said, you know, one day
is gonna be me, because I know the truth eventure
was going to vindicate me. Were you angry when I
(22:53):
first was first convicted. I actually sit and cry and
ask God why me? You know I didn't come in
to scribd, God, why didn't. Why did you allow this
to happen to me? And I asked a friend of
mine who was there, and he said to me, his
question was because God knew what he was gonna do
with that. He was going to fight it. Probably for
something else that you probably put did in the past
or something like that. It probably would have just sit
back and just been different to it. But God, no, no,
(23:15):
you didn't come and describe mine. You know that you
would have fight the way you did, right, No, you
were fighting. And that's the reason probably why. And and
that's it makes sense. But it's it's interesting because having
spoken to so many and and and they've been very
fortunate to be able to spend time and learn from
literally hundreds of exonorees over the years I've been doing this.
You know, they all have a different version of what
(23:37):
you're saying. Some of them went in angry, bitter, scared,
but then they turned it around somehow. But it sounds
like to me like you you were like steadfast, Like
at first you had your moment, you allowed yourself to cry,
and then it sounds like you just bounced up. You
had this one guy who was like a mentor, kind
of like who sort of steered you spiritually or whatever.
(24:00):
In this there wasn't any time the true pity party
or anything like that. There's only time to be bitter.
It is something that has to be done, and there
wasn't any other way to do it but true me.
I actually I used to rely on other people to
help me to fight my kids to right so because
I couldn't even write properly, you understand, I used to
have to rely on in me so to actually read
some of the stuff with me and try to explain
(24:20):
to me, to me about some of these issues. And
I said to myself, you know what, if I'm going
to prove that I'm innocent, I cannot be really, I
can't expect to rely on these people to do something
for me that I should be doing for myself. And
so that's when I started to actually get books. I started,
like I when I passed my g D, because that's
where I got my g D. College course. Was there
we taking over the college course or the pricing system.
(24:40):
So what I did when I work in the general library,
I used to study do my own independence study inside here.
Started read books, all different books insidey and educate myself
and the General Library, because I realized that I was
on a mission and I can't just it is no
time for to be bitter to carry any an animaster,
because all I was gonna do is defeat the whole purpose,
because why would why should I conspiration with something that
(25:01):
already have me the ear? But then if I was
already doing time for something I didn't do, so why
would I choose to hate out to be when it's
not gonna help me, You're not gonna cause me more
harm than anything else. I didn't have any time for that.
But you realize that is a very advanced spiritual practice
almost and it's so extraordinary for me and I think
many others who are listeners and fans of the show.
(25:24):
It's really powerful to hear you and others who have
been through this talk about that, because I've never been
through anything vaguely resembling the stuff that you've been through.
But I think it's good for you to know, and
I hope you know that it's so inspiring, you know,
to be able to take what you're saying and try
(25:44):
to incorporate that into daily life and take a more
you know, zen for lack of a better word, approach
to the two life's daily problems, and so I appreciate
you sharing that you know personally, and I'm sure there's
a lot of people who will we're able to draw
and and have a happier day or week or life
(26:05):
as a result of hearing your voice. I think that's
that's really an amazing it's phenomenal. There came a point
when you were eligible for parole. Yes, at this point
you had contacted the Instance Project by now and then,
but you hadn't heard back yet as to whether the
case had been had or had you no, never interacting
like writing comics, parting remember the case. And so for
(26:27):
then the evidence I've been actually took a while for
them to discover any evidence in Mike, because at first
I said the evidence could not be found. And it
was after Jim Dwight wrote an article about it, because
during that time, this guy here, he was just he
was in the Bronx Alan Newton there had problem finding
his evidence. And then eventually they went back ten years
(26:48):
later and phoned the evidence in the exact place where
it was tenure earlier. So as so what Jim did,
he combined both cases unsure the problem of finding DNA
evidence that would exonerate in a send people. So after
the articles, the DNA evidence was eventually found. Yeah, Jim Dwyer,
for those of you who haven't read his stuff, is
a fantastic investigative reporter in New York. And and this
(27:11):
is not a typical, right the Innocence Project, Before we
take a case, we have to find out, we have
to do the research to find out if there's evidence
that so that we can help. So you were sort
of in between, but you had hoped that the Innocence
Project might take your case. But you also had another option, right,
which is that your parole was coming up. But you
took a very principled stand at this point in time,
(27:33):
which is I think a hard one for some people
to understand, because you literally had at a certain point
an option of getting out of prison if you would
have done certain things, but you refused. So let's talk
about that, well, Jason, the part of what is there
for people who committed their crime innostand and why would
(27:53):
I go to a board to admit are to sure
remorse for something that I know I didn't coming? Well,
you would you refuse to even go to the pro board,
right when that's again, that's a that's a heavy thing,
I think for a lot of For me, it's amazing
because people would think, well, you gotta get out of prison,
I gotta get out of here, right, But you were
not going to do that. You're not going to admit
to really a brutal, terrible crime exactly. And then I
(28:16):
would just subject me to register as a sub offended
and I to only that, but I would be dictated
when one week to go and when to go to
better I went to sleep or something like that. So
it would be like being in prison on the exactly,
and you're going to stand and fight for what was right,
even if I meant spending the rest of your life
in prison, spend the rest of my life. And it's
incredible because I would be a free money inside and
I would have to come out here. Yeah, so it's
(28:38):
almost like a double penalty. But Reginald chose to take
the other option and I and I can certainly, as
I said, I can relate to that. I think it's
it's almost like a Sophie's choice, right, you have two
options and they're both bad. One is you admit guilt
in essence, Well, I don't think actually admit guilt because
(28:59):
his love had written paper works to the board professing
his innocence, proclaiming he is in a sense and everything right.
So I guess that's play a factor in his release
too in two does and four. But did he have
to register as a sex offender and all that stuff?
If he was innocent, he wouldn't have to register exactly, right,
so you know, And and the other problem with that is,
(29:20):
of course, if you accept those conditions or terms that
I want to call it, and you forego any opportunity
to sue for your wrong for conviction, right, you have
to sign those rights away essentially. So it's a very
very difficult decision to have to make. And what happened
had you eventually when you're freedom conditional release came up
(29:43):
for me to to be released, this is when you
all you have to do was just sign up and
walk out. But again that would have subjected me to
register again as a sex offender. And I refused to
sign those paper So ten years earlier the part would
probably I would have been paroled. Had I gone to
the then and then and then five years after my
conditional release and I signed a paper, then I wouldn't
(30:07):
have to spend five extra year in prison. But I
refused to sign that paper, and I tell myself that
I was going to be free. I know the truth
was going to vindicate him sooner or later. And we
know that it did, but or you wouldn't be here now.
But let's talk about that. So the Innocence Project took
your case and eventually two thousand and fourteen. Yeah, well
I was during that time. I was. I had bell
(30:28):
Dock helping too with my case. He was doing the
part where there's no involvement of DNA evidence or anything
like that. It was studying the police reports and all
these things, because that's when I started to write everything
about what I discovered, showing them what I've discovered and
showing that I did not come in the crown, that
there was a fabrication, and and you know, showing the
proportion all these things. And Bell Doc again for those
(30:49):
who may not know, it's Myron Bell Doc. Yes. So
he's a very respected criminal defense attorney in New York
and he had taken your case bo bono es. Right,
so now you have two very powerful weapons in your arsenal.
All of a sudden, right you went from being basically
on your own to be that was not basically totally
on your own to having two great organizations advocating exactly
(31:11):
because it was clear to us at the Innocent Project
and also to Bell Doc and his friend that you
were an innocent man. So how did it end up?
We heard about the terrible day when you were convicted,
We heard about the horrible day when you were arrested.
I want to hear about the day when you were
exonerated and how did it get to that point and
what was that like? Well, we had initially file a motion,
(31:35):
the motion was denied by Justice Parker, and then we
have to file a motion to the appellate court showing
why the kids should have been dismissed because of the
fabrication and the lid Brady turn on. But I showed
that the case was actually fabricated against us. So did
the second Department looked over the keys to them like
six months, six or six months and it came back
(31:56):
and not only did they dismiss the conviction, but they
also dismis the evidence in that means against us, showing
that the report that should have been turned over to
us actual it was never turned over. And I would
show that the detectives and the witness was not food
right with their allegation. They pretty much fabricate the whole
thing they did. They mean not even pretty much fabricate
(32:17):
the whole thing. So I normally call Kim. She was
a former correctional officer. She would be a pivotal part
in my kids because she used to help with like
getting information to the lawyers and STU for like nothing
that would jump out as her job or anything like that.
I called a family member and they told me that
there was a decision right and I at first I
didn't know they were hystorical like cron and the phone
(32:39):
and everything. And I actually I even know how to
feel anymore. I just like, good, like you guys can cry.
Let me look over the decision and everything I read over.
I should have been like happy, I excited and everything
like that, but there was no sense of excitement because
again earlier of what the lower court did, because here
(32:59):
was it, I hope was all the way to the
ceiling and they just knocked it all the way down.
But that didn't stop me from from hoping. But this
family member, who was it was it your was it
your mom or an uncle or who who is it
that you spoke to? It was a Skim, the former
correction office that was there. I spoke to her, but
then she had already retire from her job. So did
you believe it? You know what? I was like, I
(33:22):
got back something that shouldn't have been taken away from
me in the first place. So it's not like it
shouldn't have been taken away from me, of course, So
you didn't have really a sense of joy. It wasn't
the mirror image of the despair that you felt. It
was more of a thing of just sort of justice
is done, and now let me move on with my
life exactly exactly, like a resolute kind of exactly exactly.
(33:55):
Now let's get onto the other part of the story,
which is incredible. Right, let's talk about love. So Kim
is kind of an important figure in your story. Right.
So Kim was a correction officer in Green Correctional Facility,
and you developed a relationship with her, not a physical relationship,
but sort of a connection with her while you were
(34:16):
locked up there, and then that took on a new
meaning when you were released. Everton ended up marrying Kim,
who had been a correction officer in the prison in
which he was incarcerated, which sounds like if you put
it in a movie, somebody would go, get the funk
outta here. That's impossible, But it actually happened. How did
(34:38):
that go down? Well, what I was the fighting workie
in my case, I worked a lot of library where
she actually was a supervising office in that area. She
used to a couple of day is there and used
to work in the upfront where she would monitor telephone calls.
And I would call out to my lawyer and had
this lawyer who was actually represent in Kanna. I was
(34:59):
oxen for help, and I wanted her to actually have
other lawyers involving the case. And I was trying to
her tell her I don't need sympathy, I need help,
you know, And I don't think I've been getting enough help,
but I should be getting And I think Kim's overheard
this conversation, and she was like somewhat taken aback because
she said, damn, this guy is actually innocent and shouldn't
(35:20):
be here. So I guess she developed some feelings here
for me then, and then you know, and trying to
see what she could do to help while I was there,
you know. And then after I, you know, because of
what she'd done from over the years, and I, you know,
there wasn't anybody at the time helping I had no
support pretty much helping me. At that time. I was
everything was done at my own anxiety, have to go
(35:40):
to school, educupe myself and study whatever need to be studying.
In other words, I was like alone of fighting all
these things. And then she came out and and tried
to help, you know, play, you know, help in the process,
like can't help to contact lawyers, gman sufferance on so
speak on my behalf sort of like an angel and
exactly exactly exactly, that's amazing. So and and ultimately, you know,
(36:03):
you resisted any temptation to develop a physical Really I
had to. I could not develop. Number One, I respect
her job, I respect for as that person. I would
not have done anything to undermine her job, right, because
she would have been a big trouble exactly. So there
was nothing unbecoming insidey or anything like that. Nothing right.
And we know that that goes on in prison, right,
(36:23):
there's a lot of that. Yes, but but you but
you resisted, which is a you know, we talked about
it before. It's an incredible temptation. You've been alone for
over two decades now, but you resisted, which was again
a principled and intelligent and thoughtful and difficult thing to do.
(36:45):
But the good news is that you eventually we're released.
She was really almost placed there as somebody to to
give you that extra support that exactly to exactly I
look at it in that sense, and so that was
a great thing. And then ultimately you're freed, and then
you contacted her and a relationship developed and which led
(37:07):
to ultimately being married. Yeah, I mean, of course of
what you've done to you know, for me too. I
mean she was deal when again, no one wasn't the
adjut when I was in the bottom of the pit, understand.
So I mean that's somebody who I could never like
brick ties with. She embedded a place in my heart
at all time. It doesn't matter we are, She's always
(37:29):
going to be in my heart, I mean, and I
would always do everything in my poem to me to
show that she's okay. Well, I mean, it's an incredible
love story. It's an amazing way to end, but I
don't want to end without going back to your time.
In prison. You mentioned the education program in the in
the prison, and I want to talk about that because
(37:49):
I think a lot of people are skeptical and there's
some people out there who say, well, why should we
pay to educate guys in prison, like we don't we
don't pay enough money for the regular or whatever they say, right,
And I have a very different view on it um
not only from a from a public safety perspective, where
we know that men and women who have been through
(38:11):
an education program in prison when they come out are
extremely unlikely to re offend. But how important was it
to you to have that education option or that education
program available to you in prison. It was very important
that because if it wasn't for that whole where else
would I have helped to educute myself? I mean, even
though it was taken away when I first got my
(38:33):
g D, because again I think government part. It was
the government at that time, and I get some of
the public was publish sure the same feeling that why
should they talk we have to be to have to
educate these people, you know, for you know, when they
are criminals and support and so on. But they have
to realize too that these are the same people who
are going to come back and re into society, So
(38:53):
why not use it as a cost to help them? Exactly.
I think it's critically important that we provide this option
for people, and it allows for a sense of hope.
And I know this from having spoken to other exonorees
who've been through it. I mean, even Jeff Deskovic has
been on the show. I mean he said if not
for that, he probably would have killed himself in prison
because he had nothing else. I'm glad we brought that up. Now.
(39:16):
We talked a bit earlier about the things that you
derived your inspiration from, right, and you talked about some
of the books and some of the teachings that allowed
you or that helped you, or that inspired you to
keep a positive attitude and to be able to carry
on day after day in this miserable place with the
(39:38):
loneliness and the frustration and the and the you know,
all the other terrible things that come with being in
the max for security prison. It was really the books
that did it. Wasn't it a lo The books did it.
And plus I know that I want to be of
help to life, to humanity as a whole, and um,
I know I could not just sit there on those
fooks exclusively on my keys. What can I do in
(39:59):
the mean? And while I was working on my kids,
it was something that I had to do. I couldn't
just like make it be my number one, so I
have to say, say know what. During that case, I
I read especially Man Social Meaning by Victor Frankil. Victor
Frankill made a reference that it wasn't a condition that
kills him, but the lack of hope. And I have
experienced the same thing inside that place where I was,
because I've seen a lot of guys inside you're doing.
(40:21):
I mean a lot of guys just like after being
hit so many times at the Board, just gave up
and their system just started fight against them. They have
to be put on medication. Some of them just check
into hospital ward and they they just went down and
just out. I've experienced so many times. I've experienced this
particular guy who's very own immune system, Jason eats away
at his own body because of lack of hope. I
(40:43):
have been been hit so many times at the Board,
and I was so privileged to spoke speak to that
guy one day in the library and I explained to
him and give telling my situation and how I will
never give up hope and I never even despite it
being hit so many times, that denied so many times
at the power board, not to give up hope, to
keep fighting, keep fighting because eventually you will be released.
Unlike actually a few probably a years or later, he
(41:06):
was actually released. You know. It's serious, I mean, and
these are some of the things that I have seen.
And as a result, I told myself, James, that I
could not sit there and feel any pityport despite of
what happened to me with despite of the denial of
times from the other course and and everything. I didn't
allow that to stop me at first. At first, Yes,
I feel done when I first get he done something
(41:28):
like when I was denied and all these things, but
I didn't dwell on it. Um Jesus. The problem is
a lot of us dwell too much when something is done.
Now we think it's wrong, do something about it. Don't
just sit about and try to be angry, are beat
or anything, because that's not going to do anything to
help find another road that you could go and tackle
that problem and get it out of the way. So
if anybody out there to think about having a petty party.
(41:50):
They shouldn't invite you because you're not I'm not coming.
I don't want to hear it. You're not coming. But
now that's amazing because you actually had a very profound
effect on this man who was giving up hope, and
you were able to snapping back into reality. And then
next thing, you know, a year later, it's like it's
like Americle exactly. And you know what. And that's the
thing about working with a work board in the general
library under a lot of library and I was able
(42:12):
to meet a lot of people who have been have
gone through the board so many time and get hit
out the board so many times, and I have I
was there to like just give them some hope, like
speak to them about listen, look look at my condition.
For example. I mean I didn't come in to crime.
I'm here suffering as if I did a crime. But
at the same time, I'm not giving up hope because
I know I would be vindicated one day. And the
same thing that the principle that I used to to
(42:33):
help me to do to maintain my my my mind
and my son and in thingside, you can't use the
same principle. It doesn't have to be in prison. The
same principle could be applied audio by anyone in any situation. Well,
that is a message that is as good as any
that we could possibly share, and I know it's going
to help me and so many others to get through
(42:54):
things that we're all going to go through at different times.
I do want to just give a quick flaw because
Everton has been doing some great work helping out risk
youth and working with them, but also going and doing
public speaking on a professional basis, and so I want
to share if it's sorry with you, I want to
share your email address so that people can reach out.
(43:15):
You've been you speak at schools, alledges, colleges, corporations, basically
anywhere that somebody needs to hear this message of tragedy, triumph,
and I guess it's optimism, positivity and strength. I mean
that's really what it is. And so everything. Your email
address is make a difference and live at gmail dot com. Okay,
(43:37):
that's kind of perfect. Make a difference and live at
gmail dot com and more appropriate email address I couldn't
imagine for a guy like you, so so reach out
and he's a guy you you really want to get
to know better than you can even just on the podcast, Everton,
It's been a real uh pleasure and a privilege having
you on the show. Is there anything else that you
(43:58):
want to say before we sign of Well, it doesn't
matter where we are in this world, they don't matter
what we're going through. We must always understand that there
is always a way out. And sometimes the problem is
that we tend to look too much for guidance from
our five senses. We have to learn to go beyond
those five senses because example, when I was going through
(44:19):
what I was going through, I was in prison, for example,
and I if I was just focusing on my condition,
my current situation, I would stay depressed and and all
these things would have kicking hopelessness and our dispair would
have kicked in. But I realized that there's an other
side to the five senses that the five sensors doesn't understand,
I will never understand. And that's where we have to
learn to dwell in that spiritual aspect of who we are,
(44:41):
because these are the things that help us to elevate
any more any mounting got smoun with any problem, and
we have to remember that do not just dwell and
your five sentence on what you're going through. Don't focus
on those senses. Of course they're there, they are beneficial
to us, but they're not the moving fact that they're
not the determined factors in our life. There should be
just a vehicle that determines that that only take our
(45:02):
instruction from us, this prutional side of who we are.
Remember that we have to know who to steer it on,
how to guide it all? Right, I think that says
it all. This has been a very inspiring episode of
wrongful conviction and it's all because of you everything. Thank
you again for being here, thank you for having wish
(45:22):
you all the best, and I'm looking forward to seeing
you and watching you do more and share more wisdom
with everybody. I want to thank you. Don't forget to
give us a fantastic review wherever you get your podcasts.
It really helps. And I'm a proud donor to the
Innocence Project and I really hope you'll join me in
(45:44):
supporting this very important cause and helping to prevent future
wrongful convictions. Go to Innocence Project dot org to learn
how to donate and get involved. I'd like to thank
our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Awards. The music
on the show is by three time OSCAR nominate composer
Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on Instagram at
Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful
(46:08):
Conviction with Jason Flam is a production of Lava for
Good Podcasts in association with Signal Company Number one
Everton wag Staff is a source of inspiration to me
that I am just super grateful to have. I his
talk that he gives at the end of the episode
You're about to hear, which was, you know, just a
stream of consciousness. Man. He dropped some knowledge that I
really needed to hear, and I think a lot of
(00:24):
other people do too, So please listen all the way
through to the interview I did with Everton wag Staff
back when it first aired on February two thousand seventeen.
The good news is finally, after suffering through over two
decades of wrongful imprisonment, Everton received a fourteen point six
(00:45):
million dollars settlement in June of two thousand seventeen. Everton,
you deserve all the happiness in the world and I
wish you blessings on blessings. You are a hero to me.
(01:07):
With the police banging on the door, open up, the
choice to be in that lineup was the last choice
I made as a free man. A year later, I
ended up right in the system. I'm going to be
one of those people who everyone in the world is
going to think as a monster or suspect as a
monster for the rest of my life, and I'm just
gonna have to come to peace with that. Somebody was
(01:30):
able to look at my picture in a database and
say that I was somewhere where I definitely wasn't. I
overheard three of the jailers discussing what part they might
have to play in my hanging. They had been told
that two prison officers would have to participate in my execution,
and I walked back inside that prison for the last time.
(01:51):
All hell broke loose, but Everton Wagstaff was arrested and
charged with the kidnapping, rape, and murder of a sixteen
year old girl, Jennifer n Gron in Brooklyn, New York.
Wag Staff and another man who he didn't know, Reginald Connor,
(02:14):
were both convicted for the girl's brutal killing. His arrest
and conviction were based almost entirely on the word of
a drug addicted sex worker, a heroin addict named Brunilda Capella,
who claimed falsely that she discovered the body. He spent
twenty three years behind bars, and spent even longer than
that fighting a legal battle against the justice system. Tonight,
(02:36):
this frooklymanity is finally free. Everton Wagstaff's Wrongful Conviction has
been overturn. He ultimately served almost twenty three years in
prison and survived based on an incredible positive attitude and
a will to live and persevere. He was exonerated in
two thousand and fourteen, and he's here today. This is
his story. It was so curious about coming to this
(02:58):
Colinsion America. A year later, I ended up writing the system.
Welcome back to another episode of Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flam.
Today's guest is the one and only Everton Wagstaff. And
you'll understand why I say the one and only after
you get to hear his incredible story and his unique
perspective and wonderful attitude about everything that he's been through
(03:20):
and about the world in general. Everton, welcome to the show.
Thank you for having me so, Everton. We have a
tradition here at Wrongful Conviction. We started at the beginning
and then we work through the whole story right to
the present, starting back at the beginning. You're originally from Jamaica, right, Yes,
and not Jamaica Queen's Jamaica, actually Jamaican Island, the Jamaica Island. Yeah,
(03:43):
I know, everybody's always giving you a hard time about
the Jamaican bobsled team. But that wasn't you. That was
some of the guys. Tell me about growing up in Jamaica.
First of all, did you have a happy life there?
What was it like? Yeah, it was happy. I grew
up with my grand pearance. We're pretty much have the
basic necessities. Weren't like in you know, for any thing,
you know, to live off the land, nothing to complain about.
It was really really well. And you came here in
(04:07):
your young twenties. What led you to make the decision
to come to New York It's a big change. Well,
you know what, I've always heard about America And I said,
whoa what was? And I was so curious about coming
to the scuntry. I've been seeing all these things. Had
you ever been here before? No, you've never been here,
and you just decided to move exactly pretty brave. And
you know I always curious about here. But a year
(04:29):
later I ended up writing the System. I mean unfortunately, Yeah,
I mean that's a rude awakening, like a very it's
not welcome to New York, right, exactly the opposite of welcome,
exactly exactly so so you were living in Brooklyn right
when you got here. Yeah, I was living in Brooklyn.
I re that in the Bronx with my mom, you know.
Did I live on my own in Long Island with
(04:51):
a former girlfriend. So you moved around a little bit.
And what were you doing to make a living while
you were here in the beginning? Well, I used to
do a little construction with my stepdad. He used to
be one of those guys that helped with the Brooklyn Bridge.
So you came to America in what year, late early nineties,
and a year later everything went wrong. Everything went wrong,
(05:12):
which is a crazy story. I mean, there was a
lot of crime in New York back then, and there
was a lot of pressure on the police to solve crimes.
And there was a terrible crime that happened at that time.
A young girl, sixteen year old girl was kidnapped, raped,
and murdered. So naturally there's going to be a lot
of pressure on the cops to resolve this and restore
(05:35):
some faith or some calm to the community. And they
ended up getting not only one wrong guy, but two
wrong guys. They ended up getting you and another guy,
and they managed to arrest and ultimately convict you without
any physical evidence, which is it's a crazy story. I mean,
we hear so many crazy stories. You're on wrongful conviction.
(05:57):
Take us through it. So where we're you? Did they
come and kick in your door? Or like, how did
you how did you end up getting arrested and what
were you thinking at the time. Actually I was on
a pay phone in East New York and and my
car came up and took me off the phone and
said that there and said it was going to take
me to the precinct to check something out. And that
(06:20):
was it. I ended up getting interrogated for this crime.
The asked me where I was between such and such
a time. At the time, it was nowhere in the area.
I was in Long Island. And he keeps saying that
I have a witness who can say that I commit
a crime and as Afford and so on, And I
tell him and I didn't come in the crown and
they have the wrong person. So they had been the
prison from at least from about twelve or eleven in
(06:42):
the afternoon until about one o'clock twelve one o'clock midnight.
So to put on this lineup to have this girl
came in, I know who it was at that time,
came in and they said I was identified as another
person who committed the crime. You know, I was like,
this is impossible. I didn't come in the crime. If
nobody speak, I was not in the era. It's that
you guys say I wasn't in the ear at the
(07:04):
time we were interrogted. You have a lawyer or anybody else? No,
and no lawyer, and so you're new in this country
and it's got to be totally bewildering and overwhelming. Did
they threaten you? Well, let then make a lot of
fun of me, because I told him that I needed
to speak to a lawyer, and they asked me who
I want? Want me to get that? Want me to
(07:25):
get to Kolbe and Mayas or something like that. For
those of you, for those of you who aren't from
New York to Phobean wires, it's sort of a punchline
because they're always advertising on TV anyway, That's why he
brought it up. So, yeah, so they're so they're making
fun of you. They're probably bored too, because you're in
there for twelve hours, right, So did they give you
anything to eat or drink? Or anything like that. So
(07:47):
you're just sitting in this room for twelve hours. They're
coming in and out and the typical interrogation, no videotaping, nothing,
But you didn't admit to anything. No, you know, I
wouldn't admit to something. I didn't do. No, And ultimately
the whole situation got really surreal, right because they were
(08:08):
so desperate it seems like in retrospect to get a
conviction that they went to pretty extraordinary lanes to frame you.
And talk to me about the other guy who was
convicted at the time, his name was Original Ecconna. Actually
didn't no Original Na, We're never a friend, never hang
out there or anything like that. Put us together. So
(08:29):
Reginald Cotton was your co defendant in the trial. He
also was convicted. I was wondering whether you guys had
even known each other, but no, it's just random. Were
you in jail awaiting trial? Were you out on bail
and Rockers Island and Rikers Islands, that's a hell of
a place to be in jail. Was it as bad
back then as it is now? It was worse then.
How long were you and Rikers awaiting the trial? About
(08:51):
a year and a few months ago. If you said
that very casually, it's a long time, especially in that place.
It was how much was bail it was? Then Bill
said nobody. Well, yeah, I guess it was a kidnapping
raym child. So yeah, they didn't send any bell. So
you're stuck there A year and a quarter goes by
and you're finally brought to trial. First of all, we
(09:13):
tried together or separately together with this guy who you
didn't know. Had you met him in Rikers? Was he
there as well? Actually when I went to court, that's
when I first saw him. I know that we were
charged to get it right. I didn't see We didn't
in the same facility when we were on the island,
so you didn't get to know each other at all
on the on the island. Knows when I went to
the court that I saw him there and I was
actually what's going on? And he was clueless, of course
(09:35):
he was because he was innocent too, exactly right. So
you're your partners in this nightmare, so to speak, strangers
who were thrown together pretty much, Yes, by this nightmare
of police and prosecutor and misconduct and various other factors
that led to you being stuck in this situation. You're
such a positive person and you have such an amazing outlook,
(09:58):
But when you went to trial, you must have been
somewhat skeptical because by now you had been you knew
you were innocent. It seemed obvious from everything that I
know about the case, it would be really hard for
even a corrupt system to say, let's put it on
this guy. I mean, they knew you were innocent. Did
you think that justice would be served or were you
(10:20):
at this point thinking I'm I'm going down. They're gonna
do whatever they have to do to get me. Actually,
when I was on let's reverse back back to Roca's Island.
When I was on the island, I pretty much I
wasn't really doing anything to help to clear myself. I
was just saying that they had a run in person
and eventually they're going to get it right before you
even go to inn trial. Because as I was said
to myself that I did not come into crime. I
(10:41):
think there's no person in the right mind who's gonna
come and testify to our crime. N I know that
I didn't come up. There's no way. So I wasn't
really doing anything. I was just like you know, just
like probably just hanging out, you know, young one years
or what. I was just hanging out there and say
they're gonna get it right until when I went to trial.
They actually had this um girl who actually it was
not in her right mind because she was an attic.
(11:03):
And let's talk about her for a minute, right, because
this is where the story gets really crazy. The witness
against you, it wasn't just some random person. It was
actually a heroin addict who was completely strong out, so
strong out in fact, that she had to be kept
in a locked room prior to the trial for three
(11:23):
days so that they would be sure that she would
show up and be somewhat sober in order to testify. Right,
we know now that she was used in up to
twenty cases. They would wheel her out whenever they needed
somebody to testify against, somebody who they didn't have any
evidence against. Here would come Bruneil did, the heroin addict,
(11:45):
and who knows what favors they were doing for her,
because we know back then in Brooklyn there was a
lot of framing going on. There were a lot of
deals being made with witnesses, which could have involved something
as basic as dropping charge against them, or even favors
that may have been done that would involve cash or
drugs or who knows, because this was a pretty big favor.
(12:08):
She was doing them to testify falsely and perjure herself
to help them resolve a case that they really didn't
want to have to deal with in the correct manner.
But the idea that this woman who was obviously morally
bankrupt and completely just out of her mind would be
used in twenty cases, I mean, that's something to really
(12:29):
reflect on and say. And and of course it would
require someone with oversight of the whole situation to be
able to tie all those together and go, wait a minute,
how lucky could she be that she witnessed twenty different murders. Incredible,
But you didn't know about that while you were rikers.
You didn't know that they were going to wheel out
this heroin and I could testify against you. So, in
(12:52):
other words, so you were actually and you had reason
to expect that you would be exonerated because you knew
they couldn't have an evidence against you. Didn't come out
a crime, so you still had faith in the system,
and you still thought you're going to go to trial.
They're going to figure out they made a big I
thought they wasn't going to go to a trial gonna
find out who come in to crime. I would even
(13:12):
to trial because I didn't come in a crime, right.
But the bad news is, as we know that when
they arrested you, they stopped looking for the guy. So
you go to trial together. How long did the trial last?
You had a court appointed lawyer, I'm assuming because you
didn't have money, right and was your lawyer? Did he
seemed interested? Was he competent? Was he at the time?
(13:34):
I thought he was doing his best, you know, because
I didn't know pretty much anything. I want to do
to show the system and the representation one but that
you should be getting. I just did he come to
the prison and meet with you and interview No, he's
shaking his head. Never know, you're looking at me like
I'm crazy, So he never came to interview you. I'm
actually not a lawyer, but I do have some common
(13:56):
sense and would seem like anybody who's going to represent
somebody in a case in which their life is literally
at stake, you might want to take the time, take
one afternoon and say, you know what, I'm gonna go
I'm gonna skip my golf game today and go over
to Rikers and see what the everything has to say,
see if he's got any information that might be helpful.
But that didn't happen. I guess when you're in the gen,
(14:16):
you know, you know I'm not unfortunate. We know that
public defenders are overworked, underpaid, overwhelmed. There are a lot
of very good ones, but you have to be lucky
to get one of those. It's almost like another it's
like a lottery, a haystack. Then comes the moment, so
the jury goes out, they come back in I fom
(14:37):
a guilty and second degree kidnapping because the judge initially
dismissed the murder to take away him because yesterday wasn't
evidence right, And and that's interesting too because the judge,
let's just reflect on that for a second. The judge
refused to submit the murder charge to sue because of
lack of evidence. That's very powerful words. So there was
(15:01):
no evidence of that, but he allowed the kidnapping charge
to go forward. There was no evidence to that either. Well,
the capella there was Phonia brunilda capella and other than that,
not only didn't they have any physical evidence against you
because there was no DNA, there was no blood, there
was no traces of any anything. But they also withheld
(15:22):
evidence that would have proved that you were innocent at
the time, and it took you a long time to
discover that, so the kidnapping charge goes forward. There was
a headband, right, so this was another phony piece of evidence.
There was a headband, a black headband, I believe that
was found in the car, which they claimed. Actually they're
saying that Crampston investigator discovered numerous items inside a car.
(15:46):
What this particular headband said belongs to the victim. And
one of the reasons why the prosecutors said it belongs
to the victim because they said that there was this
violence struggle in the car between me and the victim
and doing this violent struggle with the headbund was ripped
up as a result of the violent confrontation between me
on the witness, and the evidence proved that this car
(16:06):
is the car because of this headband. But probably a
months after the trial or so, the headbund was destroyed
because if it was kept into evidence, it would have
been tested that would have proven that did not belong
to the victim, but one of the one of his daughter,
and I think the prosecutors are the police knew this,
that's why they get rid of it. So there was
an evidence that even tests right. So let's just think
(16:27):
about this for a seconds. So there's a violent struggle
in the car. Obviously you can't see Everton, but he's
a big, strong guy, very muscular guy, and there's a
sixteen year old girl. So there's a violent struggle, but
there's no blood. There's no physical evidence here, but there's
a headband exactly. So you have to suspend a lot
(16:47):
of this belief to get to that point. But furthermore,
going off of what you said, later on, it was
discovered that the owner of the car, the same person
who said that the car had been at the church
service until five thirty in the morning, in which case
it would have been impossible for this car to be
used in the crime at the time that the only
witness said that it was. That same person also said
(17:09):
that that had been belonged to their daughter. So the
problem is they didn't turn that evidence over to the defense.
It was destroyed. It was destroyed, but it was found later.
I mean, they had an interview the evidence was destroyed,
but they had an interview with the owner of the
car which they did not turn over, and that had
to be discovered years and years later. Had they turned
(17:29):
that over, the whole case falls apart because of the
detective had well gone to her to her about her car,
and she told him that her car could not have
been using a Grammy car. She was using it at
that particular time. Anything that would have underminded people's case
was never turned over to us. Right. That's again, that's
where I really I just I have a hard time
(17:51):
processing that stuff. You know. It's like I don't understand.
I've never you know, I have a lot of respect
for law enforcement. I mean, we need we need a
justice system, we need prosecutors, we need cops. You know.
It's like when I was growing up in the seventies,
there was a bumper stick and said you don't like cops.
Next time you in trouble, try calling a hippie, right,
And so I'm very cognizant of the fact that they
(18:12):
play a very important role in society, and I have
a lot of respect for the fact that they work
and a dangerous job. Nobody's getting rich doing it. But
the bad guys, the bad actors in the system inflict
so much damage and the fact that they are able to, Like,
I'm trying to take myself inside the mindset of these
detectives who went to interview this woman learned at that
(18:35):
moment that you renascent as was Reginald and just chose
to ignore it because it was more convenient for them
to wrap this case up and move on with their lives.
And then they went home the eight dinner and did
whatever they did, play with their kids. And it's it's
a hard one for me. I don't know, maybe I
(18:56):
just can't. I'm never going to be comfortable with that.
But that's what happened. And now the jury comes back
in tell me about that moment. I'm sure my mother
was in the courtroom and the Julie Kimbuck and they
said that the reach a verse did the judge asked,
what was the verdict, kind of said I was guilty
of second degree kidnapping. My mom actually screaming within the
(19:20):
courth host and it was likely shocking. I mean, it
was totally unbelievable to me when you know, when when
I heard that, because I said, I didn't, you know,
I didn't come in to scraam who I hope could
I would? Could you? People actually found the guilty of
a crown and I know I did not come in
and I said, I was just like, let's just standing
like shock. Did you say anything? Did you? I just
(19:40):
tell it I did not come in the crime. You said, so, yes,
I didn't commit in the crime. And then they took
you away. So now your sins was twelve and a
half to five years. Yes. The problem with that is
(20:02):
aside from the fact that you were innocent and that
you shouldn't have been in the system in the first place,
the problem is that twelve and a half could actually
mean life because when you sentenced to twelve and a
half year eligible for parole after a period of time.
But in order to get parole you have to express remorse.
(20:23):
You have to which is essentially the same as admitting guilt.
And I want to get to that, but first I
want to talk about your experience in prison, because we've
spoken about it before and it's quite remarkable that you
are this joyful is the best way I can describe
(20:45):
your attitude about life. And I know from having spent
time with you and talked about your years, your decades
in prison, that you maintained an upbeat and positive attitude
through a situation that would have broken down a different man,
a different person. What did it? How did you do it? Well?
(21:05):
You know, I know I was innocent of this crime.
I know I had truth on my side. I know
that somebody was lying about this crime, and I know
it was not I wasn't the one lying about it.
Kind of it in a comment to crime. And I
always say to myself that I have to do something
about it, because we have to show that the truth
means something. If I just sit there and just didn't
(21:28):
do anything that means I would, it would be I
would be a betrayal to the truth. I mean, so
I had to do something, if it may not have
to sacrifice whatso be it. And actually at first I
didn't even pretty much have an medication about the judicial system,
the police reports and all these things. It's after having
gone through a lot of studying. I got books and
rent books because I used to work in a general library,
(21:50):
interlabrary loan books. I rent books on the outside, study
what PaperWorks mean what and all these things and try
to compare them under some contrast and and all these things.
And it was just doing this time that I actually
went and found those reports. And I tell myself that
I could not have just sit there and just like
show a pity party or anything like that. You know,
(22:10):
I could not do that. I have to fight. I
have to do what I have to do, and that's
the only way I would be I would have been vindicated.
And I went to the legal research course inside here,
I passed and get a paralegal certificate where I could
work in a lot of library and help are the inmates.
And while I was doing these things, this is the
are the things that actually keeps me going. I used
(22:30):
to read books and newspapers, article that came through the
lot of library and the general library. Where are the
people who were being vindicated enough crime that they didn't
come to commit? So it's these are some of the
things that I have seen that actually give me some
sense of hope because I said, you know, one day
is gonna be me, because I know the truth eventure
was going to vindicate me. Were you angry when I
(22:53):
first was first convicted. I actually sit and cry and
ask God why me? You know I didn't come in
to scribd, God, why didn't. Why did you allow this
to happen to me? And I asked a friend of
mine who was there, and he said to me, his
question was because God knew what he was gonna do
with that. He was going to fight it. Probably for
something else that you probably put did in the past
or something like that. It probably would have just sit
back and just been different to it. But God, no, no,
(23:15):
you didn't come and describe mine. You know that you
would have fight the way you did, right, No, you
were fighting. And that's the reason probably why. And and
that's it makes sense. But it's it's interesting because having
spoken to so many and and and they've been very
fortunate to be able to spend time and learn from
literally hundreds of exonorees over the years I've been doing this.
You know, they all have a different version of what
(23:37):
you're saying. Some of them went in angry, bitter, scared,
but then they turned it around somehow. But it sounds
like to me like you you were like steadfast, Like
at first you had your moment, you allowed yourself to cry,
and then it sounds like you just bounced up. You
had this one guy who was like a mentor, kind
of like who sort of steered you spiritually or whatever.
(24:00):
In this there wasn't any time the true pity party
or anything like that. There's only time to be bitter.
It is something that has to be done, and there
wasn't any other way to do it but true me.
I actually I used to rely on other people to
help me to fight my kids to right so because
I couldn't even write properly, you understand, I used to
have to rely on in me so to actually read
some of the stuff with me and try to explain
(24:20):
to me, to me about some of these issues. And
I said to myself, you know what, if I'm going
to prove that I'm innocent, I cannot be really, I
can't expect to rely on these people to do something
for me that I should be doing for myself. And
so that's when I started to actually get books. I started,
like I when I passed my g D, because that's
where I got my g D. College course. Was there
we taking over the college course or the pricing system.
(24:40):
So what I did when I work in the general library,
I used to study do my own independence study inside here.
Started read books, all different books insidey and educate myself
and the General Library, because I realized that I was
on a mission and I can't just it is no
time for to be bitter to carry any an animaster,
because all I was gonna do is defeat the whole purpose,
because why would why should I conspiration with something that
(25:01):
already have me the ear? But then if I was
already doing time for something I didn't do, so why
would I choose to hate out to be when it's
not gonna help me, You're not gonna cause me more
harm than anything else. I didn't have any time for that.
But you realize that is a very advanced spiritual practice
almost and it's so extraordinary for me and I think
many others who are listeners and fans of the show.
(25:24):
It's really powerful to hear you and others who have
been through this talk about that, because I've never been
through anything vaguely resembling the stuff that you've been through.
But I think it's good for you to know, and
I hope you know that it's so inspiring, you know,
to be able to take what you're saying and try
(25:44):
to incorporate that into daily life and take a more
you know, zen for lack of a better word, approach
to the two life's daily problems, and so I appreciate
you sharing that you know personally, and I'm sure there's
a lot of people who will we're able to draw
and and have a happier day or week or life
(26:05):
as a result of hearing your voice. I think that's
that's really an amazing it's phenomenal. There came a point
when you were eligible for parole. Yes, at this point
you had contacted the Instance Project by now and then,
but you hadn't heard back yet as to whether the
case had been had or had you no, never interacting
like writing comics, parting remember the case. And so for
(26:27):
then the evidence I've been actually took a while for
them to discover any evidence in Mike, because at first
I said the evidence could not be found. And it
was after Jim Dwight wrote an article about it, because
during that time, this guy here, he was just he
was in the Bronx Alan Newton there had problem finding
his evidence. And then eventually they went back ten years
(26:48):
later and phoned the evidence in the exact place where
it was tenure earlier. So as so what Jim did,
he combined both cases unsure the problem of finding DNA
evidence that would exonerate in a send people. So after
the articles, the DNA evidence was eventually found. Yeah, Jim Dwyer,
for those of you who haven't read his stuff, is
a fantastic investigative reporter in New York. And and this
(27:11):
is not a typical, right the Innocence Project, Before we
take a case, we have to find out, we have
to do the research to find out if there's evidence
that so that we can help. So you were sort
of in between, but you had hoped that the Innocence
Project might take your case. But you also had another option, right,
which is that your parole was coming up. But you
took a very principled stand at this point in time,
(27:33):
which is I think a hard one for some people
to understand, because you literally had at a certain point
an option of getting out of prison if you would
have done certain things, but you refused. So let's talk
about that, well, Jason, the part of what is there
for people who committed their crime innostand and why would
(27:53):
I go to a board to admit are to sure
remorse for something that I know I didn't coming? Well,
you would you refuse to even go to the pro board,
right when that's again, that's a that's a heavy thing,
I think for a lot of For me, it's amazing
because people would think, well, you gotta get out of prison,
I gotta get out of here, right, But you were
not going to do that. You're not going to admit
to really a brutal, terrible crime exactly. And then I
(28:16):
would just subject me to register as a sub offended
and I to only that, but I would be dictated
when one week to go and when to go to
better I went to sleep or something like that. So
it would be like being in prison on the exactly,
and you're going to stand and fight for what was right,
even if I meant spending the rest of your life
in prison, spend the rest of my life. And it's
incredible because I would be a free money inside and
I would have to come out here. Yeah, so it's
(28:38):
almost like a double penalty. But Reginald chose to take
the other option and I and I can certainly, as
I said, I can relate to that. I think it's
it's almost like a Sophie's choice, right, you have two
options and they're both bad. One is you admit guilt
in essence, Well, I don't think actually admit guilt because
(28:59):
his love had written paper works to the board professing
his innocence, proclaiming he is in a sense and everything right.
So I guess that's play a factor in his release
too in two does and four. But did he have
to register as a sex offender and all that stuff?
If he was innocent, he wouldn't have to register exactly, right,
so you know, And and the other problem with that is,
(29:20):
of course, if you accept those conditions or terms that
I want to call it, and you forego any opportunity
to sue for your wrong for conviction, right, you have
to sign those rights away essentially. So it's a very
very difficult decision to have to make. And what happened
had you eventually when you're freedom conditional release came up
(29:43):
for me to to be released, this is when you
all you have to do was just sign up and
walk out. But again that would have subjected me to
register again as a sex offender. And I refused to
sign those paper So ten years earlier the part would
probably I would have been paroled. Had I gone to
the then and then and then five years after my
conditional release and I signed a paper, then I wouldn't
(30:07):
have to spend five extra year in prison. But I
refused to sign that paper, and I tell myself that
I was going to be free. I know the truth
was going to vindicate him sooner or later. And we
know that it did, but or you wouldn't be here now.
But let's talk about that. So the Innocence Project took
your case and eventually two thousand and fourteen. Yeah, well
I was during that time. I was. I had bell
(30:28):
Dock helping too with my case. He was doing the
part where there's no involvement of DNA evidence or anything
like that. It was studying the police reports and all
these things, because that's when I started to write everything
about what I discovered, showing them what I've discovered and
showing that I did not come in the crown, that
there was a fabrication, and and you know, showing the
proportion all these things. And Bell Doc again for those
(30:49):
who may not know, it's Myron Bell Doc. Yes. So
he's a very respected criminal defense attorney in New York
and he had taken your case bo bono es. Right,
so now you have two very powerful weapons in your arsenal.
All of a sudden, right you went from being basically
on your own to be that was not basically totally
on your own to having two great organizations advocating exactly
(31:11):
because it was clear to us at the Innocent Project
and also to Bell Doc and his friend that you
were an innocent man. So how did it end up?
We heard about the terrible day when you were convicted,
We heard about the horrible day when you were arrested.
I want to hear about the day when you were
exonerated and how did it get to that point and
what was that like? Well, we had initially file a motion,
(31:35):
the motion was denied by Justice Parker, and then we
have to file a motion to the appellate court showing
why the kids should have been dismissed because of the
fabrication and the lid Brady turn on. But I showed
that the case was actually fabricated against us. So did
the second Department looked over the keys to them like
six months, six or six months and it came back
(31:56):
and not only did they dismiss the conviction, but they
also dismis the evidence in that means against us, showing
that the report that should have been turned over to
us actual it was never turned over. And I would
show that the detectives and the witness was not food
right with their allegation. They pretty much fabricate the whole
thing they did. They mean not even pretty much fabricate
(32:17):
the whole thing. So I normally call Kim. She was
a former correctional officer. She would be a pivotal part
in my kids because she used to help with like
getting information to the lawyers and STU for like nothing
that would jump out as her job or anything like that.
I called a family member and they told me that
there was a decision right and I at first I
didn't know they were hystorical like cron and the phone
(32:39):
and everything. And I actually I even know how to
feel anymore. I just like, good, like you guys can cry.
Let me look over the decision and everything I read over.
I should have been like happy, I excited and everything
like that, but there was no sense of excitement because
again earlier of what the lower court did, because here
(32:59):
was it, I hope was all the way to the
ceiling and they just knocked it all the way down.
But that didn't stop me from from hoping. But this
family member, who was it was it your was it
your mom or an uncle or who who is it
that you spoke to? It was a Skim, the former
correction office that was there. I spoke to her, but
then she had already retire from her job. So did
you believe it? You know what? I was like, I
(33:22):
got back something that shouldn't have been taken away from
me in the first place. So it's not like it
shouldn't have been taken away from me, of course, So
you didn't have really a sense of joy. It wasn't
the mirror image of the despair that you felt. It
was more of a thing of just sort of justice
is done, and now let me move on with my
life exactly exactly, like a resolute kind of exactly exactly.
(33:55):
Now let's get onto the other part of the story,
which is incredible. Right, let's talk about love. So Kim
is kind of an important figure in your story. Right.
So Kim was a correction officer in Green Correctional Facility,
and you developed a relationship with her, not a physical relationship,
but sort of a connection with her while you were
(34:16):
locked up there, and then that took on a new
meaning when you were released. Everton ended up marrying Kim,
who had been a correction officer in the prison in
which he was incarcerated, which sounds like if you put
it in a movie, somebody would go, get the funk
outta here. That's impossible, But it actually happened. How did
(34:38):
that go down? Well, what I was the fighting workie
in my case, I worked a lot of library where
she actually was a supervising office in that area. She
used to a couple of day is there and used
to work in the upfront where she would monitor telephone calls.
And I would call out to my lawyer and had
this lawyer who was actually represent in Kanna. I was
(34:59):
oxen for help, and I wanted her to actually have
other lawyers involving the case. And I was trying to
her tell her I don't need sympathy, I need help,
you know, And I don't think I've been getting enough help,
but I should be getting And I think Kim's overheard
this conversation, and she was like somewhat taken aback because
she said, damn, this guy is actually innocent and shouldn't
(35:20):
be here. So I guess she developed some feelings here
for me then, and then you know, and trying to
see what she could do to help while I was there,
you know. And then after I, you know, because of
what she'd done from over the years, and I, you know,
there wasn't anybody at the time helping I had no
support pretty much helping me. At that time. I was
everything was done at my own anxiety, have to go
(35:40):
to school, educupe myself and study whatever need to be studying.
In other words, I was like alone of fighting all
these things. And then she came out and and tried
to help, you know, play, you know, help in the process,
like can't help to contact lawyers, gman sufferance on so
speak on my behalf sort of like an angel and
exactly exactly exactly, that's amazing. So and and ultimately, you know,
(36:03):
you resisted any temptation to develop a physical Really I
had to. I could not develop. Number One, I respect
her job, I respect for as that person. I would
not have done anything to undermine her job, right, because
she would have been a big trouble exactly. So there
was nothing unbecoming insidey or anything like that. Nothing right.
And we know that that goes on in prison, right,
(36:23):
there's a lot of that. Yes, but but you but
you resisted, which is a you know, we talked about
it before. It's an incredible temptation. You've been alone for
over two decades now, but you resisted, which was again
a principled and intelligent and thoughtful and difficult thing to do.
(36:45):
But the good news is that you eventually we're released.
She was really almost placed there as somebody to to
give you that extra support that exactly to exactly I
look at it in that sense, and so that was
a great thing. And then ultimately you're freed, and then
you contacted her and a relationship developed and which led
(37:07):
to ultimately being married. Yeah, I mean, of course of
what you've done to you know, for me too. I
mean she was deal when again, no one wasn't the
adjut when I was in the bottom of the pit, understand.
So I mean that's somebody who I could never like
brick ties with. She embedded a place in my heart
at all time. It doesn't matter we are, She's always
(37:29):
going to be in my heart, I mean, and I
would always do everything in my poem to me to
show that she's okay. Well, I mean, it's an incredible
love story. It's an amazing way to end, but I
don't want to end without going back to your time.
In prison. You mentioned the education program in the in
the prison, and I want to talk about that because
(37:49):
I think a lot of people are skeptical and there's
some people out there who say, well, why should we
pay to educate guys in prison, like we don't we
don't pay enough money for the regular or whatever they say, right,
And I have a very different view on it um
not only from a from a public safety perspective, where
we know that men and women who have been through
(38:11):
an education program in prison when they come out are
extremely unlikely to re offend. But how important was it
to you to have that education option or that education
program available to you in prison. It was very important
that because if it wasn't for that whole where else
would I have helped to educute myself? I mean, even
though it was taken away when I first got my
(38:33):
g D, because again I think government part. It was
the government at that time, and I get some of
the public was publish sure the same feeling that why
should they talk we have to be to have to
educate these people, you know, for you know, when they
are criminals and support and so on. But they have
to realize too that these are the same people who
are going to come back and re into society, So
(38:53):
why not use it as a cost to help them? Exactly.
I think it's critically important that we provide this option
for people, and it allows for a sense of hope.
And I know this from having spoken to other exonorees
who've been through it. I mean, even Jeff Deskovic has
been on the show. I mean he said if not
for that, he probably would have killed himself in prison
because he had nothing else. I'm glad we brought that up. Now.
(39:16):
We talked a bit earlier about the things that you
derived your inspiration from, right, and you talked about some
of the books and some of the teachings that allowed
you or that helped you, or that inspired you to
keep a positive attitude and to be able to carry
on day after day in this miserable place with the
(39:38):
loneliness and the frustration and the and the you know,
all the other terrible things that come with being in
the max for security prison. It was really the books
that did it. Wasn't it a lo The books did it.
And plus I know that I want to be of
help to life, to humanity as a whole, and um,
I know I could not just sit there on those
fooks exclusively on my keys. What can I do in
(39:59):
the mean? And while I was working on my kids,
it was something that I had to do. I couldn't
just like make it be my number one, so I
have to say, say know what. During that case, I
I read especially Man Social Meaning by Victor Frankil. Victor
Frankill made a reference that it wasn't a condition that
kills him, but the lack of hope. And I have
experienced the same thing inside that place where I was,
because I've seen a lot of guys inside you're doing.
(40:21):
I mean a lot of guys just like after being
hit so many times at the Board, just gave up
and their system just started fight against them. They have
to be put on medication. Some of them just check
into hospital ward and they they just went down and
just out. I've experienced so many times. I've experienced this
particular guy who's very own immune system, Jason eats away
at his own body because of lack of hope. I
(40:43):
have been been hit so many times at the Board,
and I was so privileged to spoke speak to that
guy one day in the library and I explained to
him and give telling my situation and how I will
never give up hope and I never even despite it
being hit so many times, that denied so many times
at the power board, not to give up hope, to
keep fighting, keep fighting because eventually you will be released.
Unlike actually a few probably a years or later, he
(41:06):
was actually released. You know. It's serious, I mean, and
these are some of the things that I have seen.
And as a result, I told myself, James, that I
could not sit there and feel any pityport despite of
what happened to me with despite of the denial of
times from the other course and and everything. I didn't
allow that to stop me at first. At first, Yes,
I feel done when I first get he done something
(41:28):
like when I was denied and all these things, but
I didn't dwell on it. Um Jesus. The problem is
a lot of us dwell too much when something is done.
Now we think it's wrong, do something about it. Don't
just sit about and try to be angry, are beat
or anything, because that's not going to do anything to
help find another road that you could go and tackle
that problem and get it out of the way. So
if anybody out there to think about having a petty party.
(41:50):
They shouldn't invite you because you're not I'm not coming.
I don't want to hear it. You're not coming. But
now that's amazing because you actually had a very profound
effect on this man who was giving up hope, and
you were able to snapping back into reality. And then
next thing, you know, a year later, it's like it's
like Americle exactly. And you know what. And that's the
thing about working with a work board in the general
library under a lot of library and I was able
(42:12):
to meet a lot of people who have been have
gone through the board so many time and get hit
out the board so many times, and I have I
was there to like just give them some hope, like
speak to them about listen, look look at my condition.
For example. I mean I didn't come in to crime.
I'm here suffering as if I did a crime. But
at the same time, I'm not giving up hope because
I know I would be vindicated one day. And the
same thing that the principle that I used to to
(42:33):
help me to do to maintain my my my mind
and my son and in thingside, you can't use the
same principle. It doesn't have to be in prison. The
same principle could be applied audio by anyone in any situation. Well,
that is a message that is as good as any
that we could possibly share, and I know it's going
to help me and so many others to get through
(42:54):
things that we're all going to go through at different times.
I do want to just give a quick flaw because
Everton has been doing some great work helping out risk
youth and working with them, but also going and doing
public speaking on a professional basis, and so I want
to share if it's sorry with you, I want to
share your email address so that people can reach out.
(43:15):
You've been you speak at schools, alledges, colleges, corporations, basically
anywhere that somebody needs to hear this message of tragedy, triumph,
and I guess it's optimism, positivity and strength. I mean
that's really what it is. And so everything. Your email
address is make a difference and live at gmail dot com. Okay,
(43:37):
that's kind of perfect. Make a difference and live at
gmail dot com and more appropriate email address I couldn't
imagine for a guy like you, so so reach out
and he's a guy you you really want to get
to know better than you can even just on the podcast, Everton,
It's been a real uh pleasure and a privilege having
you on the show. Is there anything else that you
(43:58):
want to say before we sign of Well, it doesn't
matter where we are in this world, they don't matter
what we're going through. We must always understand that there
is always a way out. And sometimes the problem is
that we tend to look too much for guidance from
our five senses. We have to learn to go beyond
those five senses because example, when I was going through
(44:19):
what I was going through, I was in prison, for example,
and I if I was just focusing on my condition,
my current situation, I would stay depressed and and all
these things would have kicking hopelessness and our dispair would
have kicked in. But I realized that there's an other
side to the five senses that the five sensors doesn't understand,
I will never understand. And that's where we have to
learn to dwell in that spiritual aspect of who we are,
(44:41):
because these are the things that help us to elevate
any more any mounting got smoun with any problem, and
we have to remember that do not just dwell and
your five sentence on what you're going through. Don't focus
on those senses. Of course they're there, they are beneficial
to us, but they're not the moving fact that they're
not the determined factors in our life. There should be
just a vehicle that determines that that only take our
(45:02):
instruction from us, this prutional side of who we are.
Remember that we have to know who to steer it on,
how to guide it all? Right, I think that says
it all. This has been a very inspiring episode of
wrongful conviction and it's all because of you everything. Thank
you again for being here, thank you for having wish
(45:22):
you all the best, and I'm looking forward to seeing
you and watching you do more and share more wisdom
with everybody. I want to thank you. Don't forget to
give us a fantastic review wherever you get your podcasts.
It really helps. And I'm a proud donor to the
Innocence Project and I really hope you'll join me in
(45:44):
supporting this very important cause and helping to prevent future
wrongful convictions. Go to Innocence Project dot org to learn
how to donate and get involved. I'd like to thank
our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Awards. The music
on the show is by three time OSCAR nominate composer
Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on Instagram at
Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful
(46:08):
Conviction with Jason Flam is a production of Lava for
Good Podcasts in association with Signal Company Number one
Hosts And Creators
Lauren Bright Pacheco
Maggie Freleng
Jason Flom
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