#048 Jason Flom with Jimmie Gardner

Jimmie C. Gardner was a Charleston minor league baseball player when he was accused of sexual assault in 1987. He grew up in Tampa, FL and was drafted by the Chicago Cubs just after high school graduation, playing with them in the minor leagues for four seasons. In 1990, while working towards his business degree, Jimmie Gardner was arrested and charged with robbing and raping a woman and physically assaulting her and her mother at a home in Kanawha City. Despite always maintaining his innocence, Jimmie was put on trial and prosecutors used West Virginia State Trooper and Chief Serologist Fred Zain as the expert witness. Zain knowingly presented false testimony which resulted in Jimmie’s guilty verdict, and he was convicted of two separate counts of robbery and sexual assault as well as burglary and assault-during-the-commission-of-a-felony and sentenced to 110 years in prison. Jimmie Gardner's case is one of over 140 cases from the late 1970’s through the 1980’s in which the state of West Virginia relied on falsified forensic evidence testimony by Chief Serologist Fred Zain in order to convict. It was not until April 1st, 2016, nearly 3 decades after the Chief Serologist was exposed—when Jimmie C. Gardner’s case was overturned, and he was finally released after serving 26 years in prison. Since his release, Jimmie has become an active motivational speaker and is in the process of establishing the Gardner House, a 48-bed facility dedicated to providing shelter, food and opportunities to people recently released from prison. For more information on how to book Mr. Gardner, visit www.jcgardnerspeaks.com. In this episode, he is joined by his attorney A. Scott Bolden, Managing Partner of Reed Smith, Washington, DC and the Honorable Leslie J. Abrams, United States District Court Judge for the Middle District of Georgia.

https://www.wrongfulconvictionpodcast.com/with-jason-flom

Wrongful Conviction is a production of Lava For Good™ Podcasts in association with Signal Co. No1.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:02):
America has two point two million people in prison. If
just one percent is wrong, that's twenty two people. That's
a lot of people's lives destroyed. If the system wants
to take you out of society, they will do it
no matter what laws they have to break, saying that

(00:23):
they are enforcing the lords, but they're breaking the lord.
Having to hear those people say that I was guilty
of a crime that I did not commit, and then
here my family break down behind me and not be
able to do anything about it. I can't describe the
crushing weight that was. I'm not anti police, I'm just
anti corruption. A lot of times we look and we

(00:46):
see something happened to somebody, and that's the first thing
we said, that could never happen to me, But they can.
This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with

(01:16):
Jason Flam Today. I have an unusually strong group of guests,
and I say a group because, first of all, the
star of our show, who he was on his way
to being a star baseball player actually before this insanity happened,
is Jimmy Gardner. Jimmy C. Gardner shares his story of
being wrongfully convicted and incarcerated for almost twenty seven years.

(01:39):
Jimmy Gardener was a Charleston, West Virginia minor league baseball player,
and he was a cue of sexual assault in seven.
This case was overturned and an investigators about out the
state's expert live on the witness stand, but his fight
for justice is far from over. Jimmie, Welcome to wrongful Conviction.
Thank you for having me. Jason Scott Bolden, his attorney

(02:01):
is here. Scott, welcome to wrongful conviction. Thank you for
having us. And a very unusual occurrence is happening here
at Wrongful Conviction today. This is a great pleasure for
me and an honor to have you here, your honor,
because we have the honorable Leslie Abrams here, federal judge
from Georgia. So judge welcome, Thank you very much. So Jimmy, yes, Now,

(02:27):
first of all, let me just contextualize, because obviously you
can't see, but Jimmy may well be the handsomest guy
we've ever had on the show. He's six four and
looks like a movie star. But you were actually a
picture in the Cubs organization, which is an interesting story too.
But I want to go further back than that, it's okay,

(02:49):
where did you grow up? How did you grow up?
How was your life before it really was going to
a place that all of us, Like me, as a child,
I fantasized about. I wanted that life, wanted to play
for the for the mats. But okay, and then it
turned and then it turned into a horror show. So
how did it start? Yeah, I'll take you back to
the very beginnings. I am originally born in Dawson, Georgia.

(03:12):
We left when I was I say to my mother,
says three years old, So I'll go with three. We
left and went to Tampa, Florida. And in Tampa Florida,
that's where I was raised at I went through the
Tampa Florida School System, Hillsboro County School System. I played
sports in the Tampa Bay area. Football, baseball, basketball, just
a variety of sports where you were starting to the

(03:35):
other sports as well. Imagine you were starting base Well,
I'm not gonna say star, I mean I want to
be humble and say I was playing amongst great great
athletes in Tampa, Florida. I think the best in the
world at those times, in the in the seventies, early eighties, Yes,
so you had a I mean jury, childhood was good.
Childhood schildhood was great. Yeah, Tampa Florida. I strongly um

(04:00):
let people know I'm from the Bay Area and basically
what you're seeing today is just the representation of everything
I came up through Tampa Florida. Coaches, my family members,
great aunts, great uncles, I mean, cousins, just my entire life.
I've been around nothing but positivity and just total just
total acceptance and and uplifting of people that were just

(04:22):
good people. And that's Tampa Florida. So you chose baseball, yes,
how to go from there? Well, I got drafted out
of Tampa Bayedficational Technical High School in nineteen eighty four
by the Chicago Cubs. And it's it's a little ironic
because playing in nineteen seventies, six seventy seven with the
Little League Cubs, I told my coach, coaches Zeke God

(04:43):
bless his soul. Course Zeke said, Jimmy, see, you are
the best in the world. And that was one of
his favorite things. He tell guys, you're the best in
the world. And I told him, I said, Coach, I'm
gonna play for the real Cubs one day. He said,
I know you will. And that was the nineteen seventy six.
So in four I got drafted by the Chicago Cubs
and I played minor league with the Chicago Cubs for

(05:03):
four seasons. And out of those four seasons, I had
some good some good seasons. I met some good guys.
Played four with Greg Maddox in Blakeville, Kentucky, played with
Jamie Morrior, Joe Girardi. Just a lot of names, a
lot of guys I played with and had opportunities to
to just interact with throughout my career. And for people

(05:24):
who are listening who may not be baseball fans or
maybe young, these are legends that we're talking about. It.
You're just reeling off names that are like, you know,
the Hall of Fame, one after the other. So there
you are waiting to get the call to go to
get get tapped on the shoulder and go to the
big leagues, you know, and where the Cubs uniform and
regular field and the whole thing, and then everything goes

(05:45):
horribly wrong, and in a way that is, I think,
to the average person unimaginable. And in your case, it's
very clear that what happened to you was deliberate on
the part of not just one person, but several people who,
for reasons I'll never understand, just decided that they were
going to pen horrendous, inexplicable crime on you. Did you

(06:09):
know anything about this crime. It's a crime that happened
in West Virginia. Right. This crime happened in nineteen eighty seven.
I was playing for the Charleston Wheelers in Charleston, West
Virginia during the season. I'm gonna say in May the
first crime occurred, and then in June the next crime occurred.
And the crime was a sexual assault against one white

(06:32):
woman in May and another white woman in June. You
left out an important the theater. We're talking about a
eighty six year old woman and her daughter, right, a
sixty year old woman. Right. In one case, eighties something
year old woman and her daughter was assaulted. Her mother
was beat up, but the woman was assaulted. In the
other case, the woman was about forty something and she

(06:53):
was assaulted and beat up. And this all came about
the description that the women gave were that this guy
was a light to medium complexion African American about six
ft tall. Right. And for people listening at home, that
wouldn't be a way that I would describe you. Jimmy,
I mean, Jimmy is um a dark skinned African American man.

(07:14):
Was about six four and looks taller. So yeah, the
description it was was pretty off, and it was it
was a description I was given by more than one person.
And we know descriptions can are not perfect. The mind
is not a camera. But still that didn't that didn't
match up, sir. And during the season, I mean, when
these crimes occurred, these horrific crimes occurred, the Charleston Police

(07:36):
Department was basically gathering information and rounding up blacks from
all over the city. There were over a hundred and
I believe a hundred and forty or a hundred plus
African Americans male that were rounded up and taking to
the police department fingerprinted photos and things of that order,
including myself and about six black guys off the baseball team.

(07:59):
All of us we're actually taken to the police department
fingerprinted photo. They told me nothing matched. This is fast
forward to nine. I was confronted by policeman from Charleston,
West Virginia, saying that my prints now match. One print
now matches from a crime scene. But it no longer

(08:20):
was a thumb print. It was now a left middle fingerprint.
They just made a mistake on the I guess the
definition of the print or characterizing the print. So that's
that's what connects this, right, because so they said they
re checked my prints and now they matched magically. Yes,
they had the wrong finger they had the wrongs that

(08:41):
at the time that the individuals that were in the
department didn't have the knowledge of doing fingerprints well. And
that's an interesting thing it. Scott, I'd like to turn
to you for a second too, because we know that
the standards that are maintained for fingerprint analysis are shoddy
at best, right, especially in smaller towns. The Charleston, West

(09:03):
Virginia Police Department of the State Police, in this case,
they had the expertise, they certainly did. They just had
a bad actor. The chief prologists for that department, who
had been there for several years, was known within the
department to either falsify test results or to be sloppy
with his analysis as well as in his testimony. So

(09:25):
you have the test results, right, they get turned over
to the prosecutor, right. Sometimes they get challenged by defense
council experts. Sometimes they don't. Most defendants don't have enough
money to hire an expert to do that type of
critical analysis. But in this particular case at the State
Department lab, it would later be found that the chief
prologist was not only indicted, but investigated at the federal

(09:48):
level as well as at the state level, and found
that he had not misinterpreted, but but purposefully testified falsely
on the stand of at least twenty more in individuals
like Jimmy and then secondly that there was knowledge of
others that he worked with that he falsified test results
in order to make the analysis match that the prosecutors

(10:11):
used in state court to convict individuals like Jimmy Gardner. Right,
And that's I'm so glad you're talking about. This was
fred Zane, right, and absolutely infamous, terrible. Let me talk
about a bad actor. I mean, that's too kind, right,
This is a guy who was vicious. He was deliberately
wilfully not because I think so, not because I say something.

(10:31):
Because he was convicted of doing that. It was sentenced
to four to twelve years in prison. That's such a
troubling fact because, as you said, what is a jury
to do right. They may they may not be sophisticated people.
They're probably not scientists. You got a guy like Jamie
who's I'm guessing you were represented by a public defender
at that time. Yes, Ulfender, that was his first case,

(10:53):
the first case out of law school. Yes, sir, Wow, Okay,
that's a that's a plot twist too. So what is
either of you, guys, or even you, judge Abrams, what
is a person to do? Like if you're sitting at
home and you're going, well, if I go on a
jury and a guy gets up there and I don't
know if he's lying or not, but there's nobody to
tell me any different, how is somebody even supposed to

(11:13):
get to the truth When you have a guy like
that who's up there going I'm accredited from this university
and I went to this, and I went to that.
What's a person to do? From my point of view,
that's where the pre trial process comes in. That's why
we have the adversarial system. If you have a good
defense attorney. I want to step back and speak a
couple of steps back because I've read the filings in

(11:33):
this case, but I wasn't involved in this case. But
when I look at it to even get to the
point where you put it before the jury. That's why
we have all these processes in place. That's why prosecutors
have a duty to turn over any type of exculpatory information.
The prosecutor's office. Everyone knew about fred Zane before this
trial even happened. So that's a clear Brady. That's a
clear Brady violation. And as far as I know that

(11:55):
information was never turned over, you know that your prologist
has had problems, does and have the credentials that he's
supposed to have if you're going to use it. First
of all, I was a federal prosecutor at one point
I would not have used that information. But if you
are going to use it, you have a duty to
tell the other side. If your client is telling you
they told me that the blood type didn't match, and

(12:16):
now it does, then the defense attorney should have investigated that.
So when you're talking about how does a jury know
what to do, we do have the system when it
works right, when it's not deliberately being undermined, has these
stops in place where that testimony never should have come in,
a jury never should have been confronted with that, they

(12:37):
had no chance of getting it right. I'm guessing you
would probably say, as one of the Axon reesation strong
as he said, you know, I would have convicted me.
You know, with the evidence that was presented in the
lack of defense that my attorney mounted, I would have
convicted me. I mean, maybe you feel the same way
in your case. Um no, I don't feel that way.
My jury deliberated for four and a half days. They

(12:57):
were out and they had always come back and say
you were deadlocked, and in the beginning that deadlock was
in favor of me from us I guess inquiring. But
that process went on for four and a half days.
That's gotta be four and a half days of absolute torture.
I mean, as it was. But to hear my attorney saying,

(13:18):
you know, this is in our favor, and how would
he know he just got out of lost score that
mid day to come back with a decision of guilty
on one case, not guilty on the other case, which
was I believe a compromise verdict that was that was devastating.
I mean, it even gets worse than that. To add

(13:38):
salt to the injury, I go back to the County
jail and someone has broken into my sale and took
my family photos, my my pictures of my family, my
address book with my numbers. They've called my my lady friend.
At the time, you know, that was compounded with the
guilty verdict, that was a rough day. Oh my god.

(14:00):
You know. One of the things I harp on and
that obsess on, is that we have an unequal system
of justice in this country, right which the presumption though
most of us who are on juries or just the
average man and woman, we presume the stability of this
institution called justice, called prosecutors, States attorney's offices, a U S.

(14:21):
Attorney's officers, we presume we rely on it in those
systems if they're not reliable or if those systems break down,
and they broke down more often than we think. In
regard to a case like Jimmy Cartner, there was a
complete breakdown of fairness and justice and an even handed approach.
Whether it was the prosecutor, whether it was a public

(14:42):
defender who first case was a double assault case like this,
whether it was the judge who forced him to go
to trial before this young defense attorney was ready, whether
it was the prison system and the guards who worked
the courtroom, who went back and presumably took and stole
his stuff. We can't zoom justice in every jurisdiction. There

(15:02):
are justice systems that are unjust against whether they're young,
poor black men or young poor white men with the
system doesn't work. I'm not surprised that Jimmy Gardner was
convicted because he was convicted before he sat down and
even tried the case, because those systems not only failed,
but those systems were unjust and helped being on being

(15:24):
unjust towards him. And I'm comfortable saying that as his
attorney post conviction on his part, or you didn't have
a post release, rather, you didn't have a hope in hell.
I mean you really between all the factors that Scott
just pointed out, I mean, you were you were done.
It's actually a miracle that they liberated for four and
a half days. I would have been less surprised if
you said four and a half hours or forty five minutes,

(15:45):
because they were not presented with the fact at all.
So I give some credit to the jury that they
actually spent that much time, but that didn't help you.

(16:05):
I mean, what an extreme right You're going from having
all star dreams from the dream like I said that
many of us, most American boys grow up with right,
which is playing baseball in the major leagues, which was
actually within reach. And all of a sudden, you're going
from pretty close to the tippy top to the absolute

(16:27):
depths of hell. Can you describe the moment? I mean,
you were there for four and a half days, twisting
in the wind. Every day you showed up in court
wish and hope and praying whatever your thing is. Then
you not only get convicted, but sentenced to essentially life sentence, right,
a hundred ten years in prison. I mean, what was

(16:48):
that moment? Like? I mean, I'll back it up a
little bit. When I first arrived into Charleston, West Virginia,
I can still recall all the guys in in the jail,
old seals telling me. They called me Florida. They said, Florida.
You can't win here. You just don't go to trial
and win here. And I'm telling the guys I'm not

(17:08):
guilty of these crimes. Man. They said, man, but you
can't win. You don't win in Charleston, West Virginia. And
at this time I'm knowing that I did not do
these crimes, and I don't have that worry that you
guys are talking about. You guys are talking about. You know.
I had the prosecution offer ten years to me, and

(17:29):
my lawyer said, uh. He said, Mr Gardan, this is
the best deal that that you will ever get. These
are ten years for these type of charges. He said,
you go to trial, you'll get ten times this. He said,
you you'll get beyond that. He said, this is the
best deal. He tried everything to get me to take
a deal. I said, I didn't do the crimes. I'm
not guilty of these crimes. I'm not pleading guilty to anything.

(17:53):
And those ten years turned into hundred and ten years
once I was convicted. And going through that process until
I was actually convicted and I heard the jury say guilty,
I did not think then I would be found guilty.

(18:13):
That's what made it such a shock going back, because
as I say that, the attorneys telling me, the longer
they stay out, this is excellent for us. You know,
this is excellent. They can't come to an agreement, and
the judge Stelly sends them back. You gotta go back.
They said, Judge, we were dead, like we were at
the position, we don't we can't move forward. You got
to go back. How long was the trial? Probably a

(18:34):
week and in the end I was actually convicted and
sentenced to one and ten years, which was a shocker,
to say the least. To go from that and to
come to where you are now, how did you manage
to bounce back? How did you How did you manage
to persevere? How did you manage to fight? I mean,
it's it's a process, and that's not a process that's

(18:56):
that's done overnight. At that point after I was victed,
I mean I was in shock, but I knew in
my mind I was in for a fight. I knew
that there's no time for crying and laying down. That's
just the individual that I am and my upbringing. You know,
it's not time to really cry and sulk. I know

(19:17):
it's time to fight for my life. And I guess
I had been bred for this adversity. Adversity is something
that I've had to overcome and basically outlast my entire life.
And this, this guilty verdict, this guilty verdict, was was

(19:38):
a slam to me, but I just know it changed
my entire life. The young lady that I was dating
at the time. I had to let her know that
our relationship was over and let her know that I'm
in Charleston, West Virginia with my life basically just taken
from me, and I gotta fight. So I ended a
relationship in nineteen eight or ninety that began three and

(20:05):
that was a difficult decision, but I just ended that
because I knew now I'm in Charleston, West Virginia, a
young man from Tampa, Florida. I'm used to being in
in a totally different environment and now I'm Charleston, West Virginia.
White in West Virginia and two percent black at that time,

(20:26):
which was that was major to me. But I have
to put in my mind this is live or die.
So I can still recall in the courtroom telling my
mother and my grandmother, don't cry. You know, I'm saying,
don't cry, Do not let them see you cry. Don't
show tears. I'm not showing tears at this moment. This

(20:49):
is a time that I must be strong, and I
wanted them to be strong, so I just remained strong
for them. Mostly. Of course, when I got back to
the cell, I had let it out, but you know,
I mean, it's it's it's almost indescribable. It is. I mean,
it's it's it's it's impossible for any of us to

(21:10):
understand it. So you end up going to maximum security
prison in West Virginia. Which prison did they send you to?
And how violent was it? Even among maximum security prisons,
there are some that are more chaotic and more violent.
So what was your experience. Well, when I first went
into the West Virginia prison system, I went to the

(21:32):
West Virginia Penitentiary in Moundsville, West Virginia. And this this
penitentiary was actually declared unlivable at the time. I guess
they were in the process of closing the prison down unlivable.
That's an interesting work because it was it had been
deemed just just horrible, the conditions and everything. And I

(21:54):
still remember the day I arrived at the prison and
all I could do was just kind of stand back
on the wall and look at the different faces of individuals.
I mean, I'm in I'm from Tampa, Floord, I'm in
an environment I know no one, And you have skin heads,
arian brotherhoods, motorcycle games, cluecuse class. You got a number

(22:17):
of gangs, within this prison. And it may have been
out of fifteen hundred prisons. It may have been a
hundred black guys, may not. I do only think it
was a hundred black guys. It was a different world.
It was a very very different world. The majority of
the black guys were I'm gonna say a little subservient

(22:39):
to to a degree because they didn't want any trouble.
You know, it was certain hits being sent out on
on individuals. I mean, it was a actual hits. Oh yeah,
oh sure. And it was just a completely different world
for me at that time. And my first objective was

(23:00):
I gotta get to the law library. I gotta learn
this law. Unfortunately, I was encountered by an individual that
ultimately led to me going to lock up for a
little bit. So I stand a few years in lock
up over the incident. I don't choose to speak about
to day, but it was a fight that turned into

(23:20):
a little bit more. And this thing, you know, I'm
gonna lock up for a period of years. And what
is that lock up is punitive segregation and on punitive
segregation in Moundsville, West Bertweinia Penitentiary. It's worse than the
mainline population it was pretty rough. You had officers that
had shotguns. There's a couple of shotguns on every on

(23:44):
every section. It seemed like shotgun here, shotgun over here, shotgun, shotgun, shotgun,
and you're on the inside and it's it's just all this, this,
this steel, these little cages. I can touch all four
walls by just reaching out and touching the walls from
north to south, east to west. And the sale was
that little with the little sink toilet in the bed,

(24:07):
and I stayed over there for a period of time,
and that gave me an opportunity to really hone in
on who I was and who I am. I started reading,
I started studying. I made my way to the law
library versus going out to work out. And you have
an option. You can work out or you can go
to the law library. So my law library time started

(24:30):
about two or three in the morning, so I would
go to the law library. And it's ironic, one of
the Arian Brotherhood guys, he taught me how to shepherd eyes,
taught me how to go in and read all different
cases and familiarize myself with the legal process. He really
helped me gain a foundation in law. On lock up

(24:53):
that's that for a Second's that was? That was my
first encounter. And I always tell people, you know, I'm
indebted to this guy, an Arian brotherhood guy teaching one
of the few black guys and the maximum security prisoner
in West Virginia about the law is something worth spending

(25:14):
a moment on. I mean, this is remember this guy's name, sure, sure, Joker,
Marcus Cockerham. We became the best of friends from not
knowing anything. So he taking the time out to go
over with me in this law library about similar cases,
reading up on on on this, understanding the different rits
and filings, and you know, I mean it was. It

(25:36):
was priceless. And I can still hear him saying, you
will not do a lot of time on this because
this is crazy. Your case will be one of the
biggest cases in the state of West Virginia. And all
he used to talk about was men, they're gonna pay
you so much money. That was what he was saying.
And we actually we studied so much and we we

(25:59):
really be came good friends. Behind that he's still in.
So you were moved around to a few different presents.
Let me see from from Moundsville Western Penitentiary we left
there in nineteen nine, they closed the prison down. So
I left Moundsville Western Penitentiary in March of nine and

(26:20):
I went to Mount all Of Correctional Complex in Mount
All of West Virginia. I stayed at Mount Olive Correctional
Complex for a period of I don't know, maybe I
don't know seventeen sixteen, seventeen years, because I left Mount
Olive in two thousand and eleven and I went to

(26:40):
Huttonsville Correctional Center. I left Huttonsville and went to Northern
Correctional Facility. Then I went to the Northern Correctional Center.
Then I came back to Mount all Of Correctional Complex
before I was released, and that was in I mean,
you really had a tour of the worst places. And

(27:02):
I'm sure than anyone can imagine. Let's take the twenty
seven years you were incarcerated. What was the worst thing
that you saw that happened and all that time. I
mean there it's a lot of worse. The worst happened
at Moundsville. That was the worst. I go back to

(27:22):
the winter of nt in Moundsville on lock up. I've
never been that cold in my life. All the windows
in the lock up are knocked out. And this was
prior to an incident that happened in six. It was
a riot there in night six and the windows never replaced. Yes,

(27:45):
so all of these windows are knocked out, and I'm
I'm on the fourth tier, I believe on lock up,
and the snow is just blowing in and it's just cold.
I got all the clothes I got, I got all
my clothes on. I'm so cold that I don't get
up out of bed to eat for a few days.
I remember writing in my journal, this is the first

(28:07):
time I ate oatmeal. I was so hungry. But you know,
I got up after like day two or three and
eight oatmeal that was it. But it was so cold
that the toilet was literally ice. In order for me
to use the facility, to use the restroom, I had
to break the ice with my shank. I used my knife,

(28:31):
my shank to break the ice in order to use
the toilet. I had never been that cold in my life.
And I and I pitched in I pitched in Wisconsin, Appleton, Wisconsin,
right off of Lake Michigan. And I remember being cold
off of that Lake Michigan. And I and I thought
that was the coldest, but until I went to Moundsville,

(28:53):
West Virginia that winter it was so cold. I kept
myself one on by talking and yelling. Just it was
torture and you gotta try to. You gotta try to,
I guess, yell and keep moving, get to stay warm. Yeah,
that was pretty rough. That was That was the roughest time.
And then on top of that, I mean there's stabbing

(29:16):
is over there every every day, if not every other
Day's so many gangs, there's so many hits being sent
out in this in this little area, and you've got
stabbings going on. You have the officers using the pump shotguns.
I'm still hearing the click boom, that's that's that's the
sound shooting guys. They'll make that warning, they say they

(29:36):
make a warning shot, but they'll actually shoot the buckshots
into the area. I still remember the guy saying, the
next one will get you. I won't miss with the
next one. The ring from that shotgun going off, and
I'm crawling on the ground, just crawling to try to
get away from this, this this situation, because you're not

(29:56):
expecting nothing like that to happen. Shooting going on with
then lock up I mean, but the stabbings are happening
so so frequent, and the officers are shooting to to
stop the stab mans. I mean, not justifying it, but
it was just mad Lands to me. I'm like, I'm
in a crazy, crazy spot. So I had to take

(30:16):
my whole psyche to another level. I am in survival mode.
I'm gonna make it out of here. I still remember
that I'm gonna make it out of here. I'm saying myself,
I'm writing this down, I'm gonna make it out of here.
I'm not going to succumb to this. And you know,
I had that in my my writing and my journal,
but I kept myself active, you know, and that's when

(30:37):
I would go to the library and I come back,
you know, even while I'm studying the law and and
getting all the information I can, I started reading a
lot of different books. I'm reading up on Catholicism, Buddhism, Rostafarnism, Islam, Christianity,
the Box Da Vita. I'm reading everything I can read

(30:57):
and understanding different faiths. And I'm also at this time
doing all my other readings. You know, I always mentioned
Dr Victor Frankl's book Man Search for Meaning and I
always mentioned James James Allen as a man thinking I'm
just reading so much and I'm taking time out of
my day to read this. Reading was like this is
getting me through the day. You're freezing, you're starving, and

(31:22):
you're trying to avoid being stabbed and shot. Everything else
going okay, I mean, I'll say this. I mean it
was a very it was very It was very racist
in this in this prison. So you never know when
a hit may come your way, when when someone may
come you and you don't have to even be the
subject of intent. You don't have to be that peron.
You don't even know the person. I'll never forget the

(31:45):
one guy next to me, he wouldn't come out of
the cell. You know, it's guys that wouldn't come out
and wouldn't go to shower and wouldn't come out of
that cell. And it's okay with the officers you used
to stay in the cell, but it's guys that would
not come out and I and I would go to him.
I was like, hey, come on out to sale, come
to the shower. You have a shower today, You have
a showered in a week. Come on out of there,

(32:06):
and you know it. Guys would literally say, I'm not
coming out there to be killed. Judge, let me ask you,
because I think there's something in the Constitution about cruel
and unusual punishment, how does this go on that the
scenario that Jimmy is describing, it must be what the
founding fathers had in mind when they wrote that. Unfortunately,

(32:27):
this is a reality of the country we live in now. Legally,
there would be a great uproar if we found or
somebody made a big deal about how some of our
elderly are being treated and assisted living homes. But I
guarantee you it would be a different situation where the
law would react very differently for someone on the outside
than they do when we're dealing with prisoners who sometimes

(32:48):
we forget are still citizens. They are still Americans, They're
still entitled to all of their constitutional rights. And so,
to answer the question, not passionately, but legally, there is
a mechanism to address at But is it adequate? I
would say no, the scenario that Jimmy is describing in
most states, I think if you treated your dog that way,

(33:08):
go to jail, you go to jail. You can't you
can't leave your dog in a tiny enclosure in freezing temperature,
sub freezing temperatures. It's unconscionable. And I mean, I will
say because of what I do have to believe, and
I do believe that there is a possibility of justice.
So this person that Jimmy was in was because of
a legal case condemned. Now it was condemned six years

(33:30):
before they closed it, but really there was a case
saying you cannot house people in these conditions. What happens
with the administration after that decision comes down is something
entirely different. So I would certainly agree the laws to
protect our animals are oftentime more stringent and more closely
followed than we do to protect our brothers and sisters.

(33:50):
And that is a very big problem in this country.
It's so nuts. Right one day, you're just a person
walking around the street with your rights, but as soon
as that switch goes off, you're caught up in the
criminal justice system. You're you're not treated as a human
being anymore. And that's got to change. And when we
look at it, even in the most self serving way,
for the most part, people are going to get out

(34:10):
of prison at some point. They're going to be in
our neighborhoods. They're going to be in the supermarkets, they're
going to be back in society, and if we have
treated them as subhuman for however long they're there, we
are going to read the consequences of how they're going
to react when they come out. One of the things
I admire most about Jimmy is that he'll say that

(34:32):
even though he was in jail, his mind was never there. Well,
he's he's an unusual he is an unusual person. But
we really do have to step back and look at
how we're treating people. Even if you don't care, even
if you did something bad and I don't care about you,
be selfish and understand that for the most part, they're
going to come back out and then you're going to
have to deal with it. That's why we're doing reentry

(34:52):
work with people needing jobs, needing housing, all of these things.
We have to keep in mind that we are all
part of the same society and we've all got live
in it. We need to do better. We need to
we need to do better. We need to treat our
people as people. So, Jimmy, how did it transpire? How
did you rebound? How did you get out. What was

(35:13):
that moment like when you got out? Um, I mean this.
I was overjoyed. I was released through the federal courts.
I spent forty six months in federal court on top
of a twenty three year in order and delay in
state court. And my mother, Miss Gladys Gardner. You know,

(35:33):
my mom is a very very praying woman, and she
she has visions. I was waiting up to six maybe
five months at the time, and my mom said, well,
I went in the closet and you're coming home. You
be getting ready to get your rule, and you're coming
home this week. She said, so go ahead and pack
up everything. And I said, okay, Mom. I was talking

(35:55):
to her that Sunday and I got I got the
call on Friday from my attorney telling me that the
case had been overturned, conviction vacated, and either set for
retrial or release. And I called and let my mother
know that. That Friday, I said, Mama, I got the ruling,

(36:17):
but she already saw it. She saw a vision, Like
I said. My mother is very very praying, very very prayering, spiritual,
and I have been preparing for April one. Seems like
all my life, every year that would go by. I pray.
I said, God, please let me come home this year.

(36:37):
It's January one, and I watched that ball drop right
here in New York. I watched that ball drop, and
I said, God, let this be my year. One day,
I'm gonna go and watch that ball drop. And I
I said that, and I believe that wholeheartedly. Every year,
I would say, God, let this be the year. That's

(36:59):
a few that case went by, but I watched that
ball dropping. I watched that every year. Let this be
my year. And I go through my years in prison,
letting guys know I'm going home this year. Well let's
go back to that, though, because you actually bumped into
a very principled judge who made a very strong ruling

(37:20):
and an even stronger statement when he announced that your
conviction was being all returned. And you must have very
special feelings for that man. I don't know him, but
I'd like to meet him. Sometimes shot his hand. So
can you talk about that? Oh? Yes, I can, with

(37:41):
great pleasure. You're speaking about the District Court Judge Joseph
are A Goodwin, Southern District of West Virginia. I fouled
my case into his court in June of two thousand
twelve and November of two thousand thirteen, Judge Joseph are
Goodwin granted my my petition and enabled me to come

(38:04):
into federal court, which was a miracle because I had
no standing, no legal standing, and I also filed under
the denial of access to the court, denial of equal
protection and due process, which aren't you know, issues that
aren't cognizable in federal court. You know, it has to
be an issue dealing with constitution violation that emanated from
your trial. So I mean, I'm going in already knowing this,

(38:28):
and I tell you I placed one of my petitions
into my filing because I was asked to do that
by a guy by the name of corneill Day. So
he said, man, you've got so many petitions you filed
in court, man, just go ahead and throw one in.
Let them know you have something. So I did that,
but Judge Goodwin denied my petition, but he granted me
into federal court because of my exhibit of one of

(38:51):
my state court petitions. And at the end of the day,
Judge Goodwin rule that I had shown that I had
issues that may want some relief in federal court. So
he's gonna give me that opportunity to present my petition
to the court and get my case hurt for the
first time, get my case reviewed for the first time.
And this is the first time review I went in

(39:12):
federal court under a d novo review, my first time
getting a review in twenty four years, which was remarkable.
But Judge Goodwin stated in his in his opinion that
I had been in legal purgatory and that it had
been a total miscarriage of justice, which were some very

(39:35):
strong words, very strong words. And I just know that
in order for Judge Goodwin to have the courage to
do that in the state of West Virginia, that took
so much courage, That took so much I mean, I
can't even express it to the audience. And within Judge
Goodwin's opinion, I mean, he's right across the hall in

(39:57):
the same city as the state judge that sends me
to a hundred and ten years and they're good friends.
And let me just read something because Judge Holiday said
that Zanes and I'm quoting pattern and practice of misconduct
completely undermined the validity and reliability of any forensic work
he performed or reported and that as a matter of law,

(40:22):
any testimonial or documentary evidence offered by Zane at any
time in any criminal prosecution should be deemed invalid, unreliable,
and inadmissible in determining whether to award a new trial
in any subsequent habeas corpus preceding bam right. So I
can ask the judge, it sounds to me like the
judge was pissed. That was from the Supreme Court of

(40:43):
West Virginia, and yes, he was very upset, and that
should have formed the basis for an immediate rehearing, if
not released. That decision, I believe came out in November,
so that that ruling came out out saying that every
person who had been prosecuted by or convicted but because

(41:05):
of testimony from Zane should get a rehearing. Jimmy, I
think was granted four more than that. One of the
real injustices here isn't just Zane's deplorable and illegal behavior,
is that once that Supreme Court did its investigation and
ordered a new trial for not just Jimmy, but anyone

(41:28):
who had been convicted based on Zane's evidence, they either
weren't going to be released or they would have to
be retried, and the local prosecutors and these jurisdictions had
to determine which one it was going to be. The
local prosecutors in Jimmy's case decided that they were going
to retry him rightfully or wrongfully. But then the trial

(41:50):
judge in this case, when he would file his petitions,
and you say filed four, I think he filed more
than that. But there was several state habeas corps his
petitions file pursuing to the Supreme Court decision, the state
Supreme Court decision, and this particular judge refused to give
him a hearing. So he languished for ten to fifteen years,

(42:13):
twenty years, I'm sorry forgive me twenty years in a
state of legal purgatory, essentially because he could not go
to the federal system until his state case or state
habeas case had been tried or heard. And for twenty
years they didn't hear it or try it, and so
he languished. He finally filed something in federal court out

(42:36):
of desperation, and this judge, is federal judge, took it
up despite the standing issues because how abhorrent the state
system had treated him. He had never had a hearing.
So we talked about those who were who contributed mightily
to his twenty seven year incarceration. It just wasn't the
state police and and and Zane. It was also the

(42:59):
Judd Shary at the state level that worked purposely to
ensure that he would be in legal purgatory for twenty years.
So twenty of the twenty seven years, even after Zane
was found out, it was the system and the state
court system that kept him there. And so when you
talk about making him whole, it's not about Zane, just
about Zane in the state Police department, it's the state

(43:23):
judiciary system and the prosecutors who knew he was in prison,
knew he was suffering, knew they were in the court
or to give him a hearing, and knew that they
weren't given him that. It really is abhorrent. And so
the fact that the matter is but for this federal
district court judge who found a way legally to rule
right and to to direct them to give him a

(43:46):
new hearing or to let him go. Because now we're
in with a federal court judge who's got a lifetime
appointment and says let him go. By some date certain
or retrying. Even after all of that, the same state prosecutors,
the same state police offered or decided to retry him again,

(44:07):
and on the eve of trial, on the day of trial,
approached the bench and decided they weren't going to retry
him allegedly because of lost witnesses or lost memory of witnesses.
That wasn't the case. They couldn't prove the case twenty
seven years ago. They couldn't prove it twenty seven years later.
The bottom line proposition because anything that Zane had touched

(44:28):
and anything that State lab and those working with Zane
had touched was not credible. And the whether you had
the witnesses or not, it was the tainted evidence that
ultimately convicted him. And that's the second tragedy of his incarceration.
It is absolutely fucking nuts that Zane was exposed and
actually indicted in but he had gone to Texas right,

(44:52):
had gotten fired from the position in Texas, and when
he came back, the state police and had welcomed him
back despite all the findings against him. He worked as
a consultant to them and convicted other people on bad
evidence when he returned, very powerful bad evidence too. I mean,
because again, hard to argue with the guys up there,

(45:13):
but talking science that people may or may not even understand,
people can't challenge it. Often wondered with Jimmy and and
even the prosecution on the other side, now that I'm
involved in the case post his release, as who could
find the motivation to wrongfully convict hundreds of innocent people
based on bad analysis, poor analysis, or just perjured testimony

(45:38):
on a repetitive basis a practice, a part in practice
of wrongfully convicting people. What motivates a human being in
law enforcement? Who most of them swear to the Constitution
into the flag and where the flag on their sleeves,
on their shoulders, right to wrongfully convict and criminally through

(45:59):
criminal cond convict innocent people? Where does that come from?
What manner of man is that? Yeah? And of course
we know that in every one of these cases in
which Zane and others like him have deliberately, willfully, wrongfully
testified against people like Jimmy or they knew were innocent,
And every one of those cases, the actual perpetrator remain

(46:20):
free to go and and and go and commit other
another bucket, it's a whole another bucket, but it's an
inescapable truth. But you know, I want to talk about
the good stuff. When you actually were let free, did
you walk out of the courtroom like in the movies
into the sunlight? Is that what happened? It was on

(46:41):
April one, after hearing, and this hearing is to decide
whether not I'm gonna be retried or released. And Judge
Joanna Tabot, I'm in her courtroom, and like my attorney,
Scott Bolden said, the state decided they were going to retry.
So Judge Joanna Tabot set a bond in my case.
And she asked my mother, Ms. Gardener, can you please stand?

(47:04):
And my mother stood up and my mother told her yes, ma'am.
She said, can you tell me what kind of bond
can you make? And my mom said, I think I
can make ten thousand dollars. And Judge Tabot, you know,
which is one of the greatest judges in in West
Virginia right now, her and Judge Joseph Arra Goodman, federal judge,
she said, with a bond had said at ten thousand.

(47:26):
She said, Mr Gardner, take him home with you. Take
him home. And my mother, my sister's Barbara Gardner, Harrison,
Tracy Sims or my brother Eric Gardner, my other brothers,
my my friend Sheila Louis, so many other people, my
my my nephews and you know, my nieces. It's so

(47:47):
many people waiting on me to walk out of that
that jail. I walked out of that jail on April
one to the arms of my family, and that that
moment was so exhilarating, you know, all of us. We
just met with a big group hug and I embraced
everyone and we shared a lot of tears of joy.

(48:09):
Of course, the the news reporters, like you know, they're
they're seeking to retry Mr Gardner's In my mind, I
already knew this was over, this was over. And my
mother said they can do whatever they want to try
this and that she said this is over. She said,
my God told me this is over. And I knew
it was over. So I embraced my family. We hugged. Man,

(48:33):
we went we went out to eat, we went to
the hotel and party, and I mean we parted. Man.
You can't put you can't define it, words can't explain it.
I couldn't even imagine so being wild a crazy thing
happened just a couple of months ago, because you've been
out now for about twenty two months. What was the

(48:55):
date of the formal exon September seven, So there was
another mile stone right like you knew it was coming,
but it still had to be a great feeling. And
you were telling me earlier about a crazy story in
the best possible way you want to talk about that, Okay, Um,
I'll just say this. You know, since I've came home,

(49:16):
I've had the opportunity to speak. I do my own
speaking now. I'm J. C. Gardener Speaks. I have a
Gardener House incorporated in Beckley, West Virginia. That house is
a house for returning citizens, giving man opportunities to have housing, clothing, food.
This is going to get off the ground pretty soon
in the process of renovating it now. And I've been

(49:37):
speaking and been fortunate to meet so many people and
attend so many different universities, Congressional Black call becauses. I mean,
it's just been phenomenal, phenomenal to say the least, the
opportunities that I've had. But last year I happened to
meet Judge Leslie Abrams in all Benny, Georgia, We were

(50:00):
at a Georgia Black Women Lawyers associating a party or
something like that, and I just happened to meet Leslie
and we talked, I don't know, maybe hours, maybe hours,
so so it was extended time. And it was at
that time that I realized it was it was something
that that was really gravitating me towards her, and you know,

(50:23):
I felt like I had found what I was looking for.
And today Leslie and I are a couple. I mean,
my blessings have been It's like a river flooring. You
found love in the form of the judge who happens
to be sitting right next to me right now. What
a like an amazing circle now right, I mean talk

(50:47):
about the criminal justice system giving back. I mean, you know,
it's like for somebody who has been as wrong as
you can be, it's an amazing it's an amazing, amazing
and wonderful, beautiful part of the story. And uh, you're
a lucky man, So the luckiest of the unluckiest people
that I know. I'll say. I'll say this, Jason, I've

(51:11):
been blessed beyond imagination. I can't even describe it. I've
meant nothing but great people since I've been home. It's
almost like everything you encounter it's gold. Everything that I
have encountered since my time of being home has been

(51:33):
good for me. I'm in a situation where I know
I've been blessed beyond imagination, beyond the normal human being
can be blessed their entire lives. I'm fortunate to have
a great attorney such as Scott Bolden sitting next to me.
I'm fortunate to have a great lady in my life,
the Honorable Judge Leslie Abrahams Blessed. My mother and father

(51:54):
are still here, My sisters and brothers are still on
this earth with me. I'm in the presence of my
my nieces and nephews and my family members all the time.
I am blessed beyond comparison. And I'm blessed with health.
To come out of mound's Ville, West Virginia Penitentiary and
go into Mount All the Correctional Complex. To come out
of this situation now for twenty seven years and be

(52:16):
healthy mentally, physically, and spiritually is beyond the blessing the miracle.
Now I am in the process of taking some of
getting some psychiatric help as far as because you can't
go in water and not expect to get wet, So
I do have to take some classes getting myself reacclimated back,
get some psychiatric help in that regard, just going through

(52:38):
the process sharing my bad times proceed with individuals with
a psychiatrist being in a position to to say, hey,
I'm not at any level trying to say I'm totally
unblemished or unharmed by this process, because you can't. You
can't jump in water and not get wet. So I
recognize that I'm blessed beyond the majority, but in the

(53:02):
position that I am today, my position is to be
able to tell my story to people and let them know, Hey,
it's not how you start, it's how you finish, and
it's not what you go through in life, is how
you deal with what you go through in life, because
we all go through something. Everybody got a story, and
I tell people that your story is just important as
important as my story. But it's how you deal with

(53:24):
it and how you understand that you can only get
through it by really tapping into your higher power and
understanding that it's beyond you not tell people every day
just why they say, why did this happen? To you.
It's not even about me. It's not even about me,
it's beyond me. It's a level of me being placed

(53:45):
on this earth, not to play baseball, basketball, football into that,
but to be an activists, an individual that's against in justice.
To share my story with people, hoping me that I
can give them the inspiration and motivation to know that
whatever going through in life, you can come out of
it and you can be you can be in the
best position of your life if you truly believe in

(54:07):
your higher power. And I stressed that to tell people, Look,
if you can go through it, whatever you're going through,
God will not place the burden upon you greater than
you can handle. So no going in. If you're going
through it, you can handle it. It's purposeful, you know.
Usually on the show I open up the mic to

(54:28):
the featured guests for closing thoughts. I feel like you
actually just out of my mouth. Yeah, and that was amazing. So, Jimmy,
how do people if they want to book you, if
they want to donate to your new center that you're building,
Gardner House, incorporate www dot j C. Gardener speaks dot com.

(54:49):
I'm on Twitter at j C. Gardener speaks and I'm
also Instagram J C. Gardner speaks. You got that handle,
I'm gonna u. I'm going to follow you and I
hope other people will too. And Scott, how do people
reach you if they are in need of your services?
A bold and B O. L. D. E. N At
read R. E. D. Smith dot Comic with the law

(55:12):
firm of Ruth Smith. I would argue that these are
very difficult cases. They take a long time, and then
there's the second story of recovery of how do you
make someone like Jimmy Gardener whole, not just emotionally or physically,
or practically or legally, but financially. He's lost twenty seven
years of his life. What is his life worth after

(55:34):
twenty seven years of being in prison? Be welcome to
look at other cases. I can tell you I'm super
focused on Jimmy's case, though, because we have a couple
of lawsuits pending in West Virginia. So despite all of
this and all the reports, the state of West Virginia
continues to fight. Now they're free to fight. Obviously these
are civil lawsuits, but given the overwhelming evidence and even

(55:56):
the judicial reports that confirm this type of really abhorrent behavior,
and not just by the state lab but also by
individuals in the criminal justice system. There. Our hope and
our goal is that we will resolve those cases so
he can move on completely away from those twenty seven years.
Right now we're still fighting though. And then lastly, I

(56:20):
do also like to have our other featured guests share
any last thoughts, anything that you want to get off
your chest, or anything you want to tell the audience.
Judge Well, I would say that one of my passions
when I was a federal prosecutor, I was in a
USA in the U. S. Attorney's Office in Atlanta. I
was hired by Sally Yates, and Sally Yates always talked

(56:42):
about doing justice, but she talked about it as a
three legged stool, and one of those legs it was enforcement, prosecution,
but it was also prevention and re entry. She was
very adamant about that night. I hope that if anything
comes out of this. One of the things that when
I met Jimmy, he said we talked for a very
long time, and part of that was talking about one

(57:03):
how someone could go through that experience and come out
with the spirit that he has come out with, but
also what he was doing. We talked about Gardner House,
about how he was trying to help other people re
enter into society. I was the community outreach coordinator for
the US Attorney's Office a period during my time there,
and I did reentry work. I continue to do reentry
work as a judge because I think it's very, very
important for us to give returning citizens an opportunity. Not

(57:27):
everybody has a family that's going to be standing outside
when they come home. Not everybody is going to have
a home to go to, food to eat, even understand
the resources. Jimmy is extremely educated, but the majority of
people that I see in my court have not graduated
from high school, would not be able to navigate the
system as he did. Because it hasn't been said. But

(57:48):
understand the petition that got him out. He wrote, he
had thirteen lawyers over the years. The only one to
file that federal writ was him, and he did it himself.
Not everybody has that opportunity. And so, if anything, what
I would say, and is the most important thing that
I think can come out, is that people understand that
these are our brothers and sisters. When they went into prison,

(58:10):
whether rightfully or wrongfully, convicted and there are brothers and
sisters when they come out. One of the reasons, and
Jimmy and I talked about fate. I'm the daughter of
to United Methodist ministers. My father ran post prison ministries
when I was a child's wife, spent a good deal
of time in jail. I spent several birthdays in jail.
And one thing I was always taught is not your circumstances,

(58:32):
it's how you deal with those circumstances. And one of
the things that really has drawn me to Jimmy is
I have been inordinately blessed in my life. I can't
imagine confronting what he's confronted and doing it with the
grace that he has done it with amen to that,
And so I just say, if anyone is listening, please
reach out, look at what opportunities for re entry are

(58:53):
there in your communities, and try to get involved, because
we are all part of the society and we've got
to gure out how to make us all one. As
Leslie said, I went through thirteen attorneys throughout a twenty
about a twenty three year period. I went through thirteen
attorneys that never foul habeas corpus or on my behalf,
and I strongly suggested people to have legal representation before

(59:17):
you encounter any type of situation that that that is
similar to mine or just like mine. We have life insurance,
we've got home insurance, car insurance, and these insurance, these
insurances are something that we're paying for prior to us
getting involved in an accident, or prior to us dying,
or prior to us having something happened to our home
or something. So I am a legal Shield Associate. You

(59:40):
can pay a fee that will cover you and if
you're getting involved in any type of accidents, be covered.
Have an attorney already on on standby, and have access
to your attorney. Seven questions Seven, I'm covered. I want
you to be a covered and it's Legal Shield Associate
dot com slash Jimmy C. Gardner and you can actually

(01:00:05):
reach me and go on and sign up right now
and be covered. Don't forget to give us a fantastic
review wherever you get your podcasts. It really helps. And
I'm a proud donor to the Innocence Project and I
really hope you'll join me in supporting this very important

(01:00:28):
cause and helping to prevent future wrongful Convictions. Go to
Innocence Project dot org to learn how to donate and
get involved. I'd like to thank our production team, Connor
Hall and Kevin Wardis. The music on the show is
by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure
to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on
Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flom

(01:00:52):
is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts and association
with Signal Company Number one