August 6, 2018 • 50 mins
On December 27, 1996, 35-year-old Tyrone Camp was fatally shot in the head and back as he was warming up his truck at Active Transportation Co. in Louisville, KY. The murder was witnessed by Kenneth Brown, who told police he had seen the assailant running away, but that he could not identify him. The focus shifted to Kerry Porter, who had also once been married to Camp’s wife, after the victim’s brother showed the witness a picture of Kerry. Brown identified Kerry as the assailant on two separate occasions. Kerry Porter was eventually convicted of the murder of Tyrone Camp and sentenced to 60 years in prison. His devastating conviction was built on mistaken witness identification, perjury, and a false accusation. He was exonerated in 2011 thanks in part to the Innocence Project and–in a strange turn– the television show Bay Watch.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
I've never been to trouble in my life. I didn't
even have a parking ticket, and you know what I mean.
I was brought up like cops are the good guys.
I didn't know what was going to happen, but I
do know that everything was stacked against me. Everything like
everything this isn't supposed to happen this way. I'm innocent.
(00:22):
I know I'm innocent. I know I had nothing to
do with this. How is this possible? I grew up
trusting the systems. I grew up believing that every human
thing should do the right thing. And that's why, even
though Neal was dealing with corrupt people, I wasn't going
to brave anyone to get me out of prison because
I wouldn't live with the fact that I braved my
way out of my wife's death. I'm not innocent to
(00:45):
proven guilty. I'm guilty until I proved my innocence. And
that's absolutely what happened to me. Our system. Since I've
been out ten years, it's come a little ways, but
it's still broken, a totally little trust in humanity after
what happened to me. This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back
(01:18):
to wrongful Conviction with Jason Flam That's me and today
we have an amazing guy, Carry Porter as our guests
on the show. Carrie, Welcome to Wrongful Conviction. Thank you, Jason,
thank you very much for having me here. Now, I
gotta tell you Carry, Even though I've been doing this
kind of work for about twenty five years, when I
was I had to read your story several times because
it's got more twists and turns than a John Guish.
(01:41):
That's funny you say that because my child, just Thomas Whan,
is now com Webt attorney, and he said he mentioned
that my lawyer's motion were like a John Grissom movie. Okay,
what's so John, John, if you're listening very much, But
your case has love trying goes, it has mistaken witness identification,
(02:02):
it has perjury, it has false accusations, it has corruption
at the highest levels, it has cover ups, it has
I mean, it's got so many factors that you know
and and you know, and then murders happening left and
right around that it would have pointed arrows in different
directions and you know, I mean insurance claims and questions
(02:26):
and like, I mean, it's really we're gonna try to
unravel this for the audience today, So everyone's gonna have
to really follow along because this is crazy. Good luck
if we do that. The only still, the only thing
I can promise is that there's a happy ending, you know,
because there is, Yes, there is person a gluibal man
freed from prison after fourteen years for a crime he
(02:47):
didn't commit. Harry Porter has a new look at life
thanks to these seven words. Mr Porter did not commit
this cofense. The Commonwealth's Attorney says Porter was wrongfully convicted
for the nineteen murder of Tyrone Camp. New information came
to light last year as part of a separate murder investigation.
(03:08):
A key witness, Francoix Hunningham, said Porter was set up
for Camp's murder. And I've seen you. It's amazing and
I we're gonna get right into the story. But I've
seen you speak on video, I saw you do a
press conference, and you know, you really have a remarkable spirit,
and um, you know, I know you've done a lot
of work, um, trying to help prevent these things from
(03:30):
happening to other people. And you know, you have all
my respect for everything that you do as you man Okay, Well,
so let's get right into it. So you're from Louisville, Kentucky,
grew up on the same street as Muhammad Aldi, and
you actually got to meet the legend that one. Yes, yes,
the greatest, the greatest. The first time was in the
(03:51):
seventies when his job was broke. Wow, amazing, what a story. Um.
And so in the mid nineties, well, what was Louisville
like at that time? Was it a particularly violent time
in Louisville. Yes, I have the in nineties six that
was the first risk of the murder rate. I have
(04:13):
the six people got killed, and I have the last
body to tyrone count while says like Decemblary seven. And
ironically they charged me with the last body. But in
May to June, the mayor had to get on TV
and assure the public that these uh murder investigations would
(04:36):
be immediately handled expedently and professionally and everything else, and
that assurance went out the door. Well yeah, so what
he was basically saying is we'll get these solved right
or wrong. Right, We're just gonna get We're gonna make
everybody feel comfortable, even though you should feel very uncomfortable
because the real killer might well be out there. Well,
politics has sales, no better tal there you go. So
(04:58):
so let's go. Let's go to this crazy case. Right.
So the murder victim was a guy named Tyrone Camp, correct,
thirty five year old man. And can you explain the
whole circumstance and how the connections led to you? And
there was the witness that wasn't sure and then he was.
I mean, the whole thing is like, but but you
take us back because you actually, unfortunately you lived through this.
(05:20):
And like I always say to my guests, I'm happy
you're here, but I'm sorry you're here. But anyway, but okay,
so let's go back to this this murder in Tyrone Camp.
Tyrone Camp unfortunately ran across my little boys, Mama Cecilia Sanders.
Well Sanders now, but then it was Cecilia Ka Patrick.
(05:41):
We had been in a relationship for a rocky relationship
for nine years in which we had a little carry,
uh at the time that our left low carry because
of Drew my drug use. Little Carry was five years old.
So Tarrone Camp came along and he was a far
better man than and our science over Parntal's rights and
(06:02):
I think ninety three, I thought, cause I did time
for child support. Well, Tyrone uh was raising my son,
uh doing a real good job of it. What Kerry
was accustomed accustomed to was fishing and hunting, and Tyrone
didn't know how to do any of that. So he
found out how to do it and stuff and and
(06:23):
and had a little carry up on these wings as
if he was me, despite him never doing that before
in his life. So look, carry got to love in
him and on decemble, his little carries. Mama's a cities
and mom than what appears that he is one of
the persons did more than likely she's a person a
(06:43):
ventures in the death of Tyrone Camp And what was
the motivation here? And who I mean? Obviously it's still
speculation because there hasn't been any real not any real
serious reinvestigation ever since you got out, which is now
several years ago, but which is a very I mean,
and I saw your lawyer speaking very eloquently and very
powerfully on this topic. Um, and it's it's a it's
(07:05):
a heavy topic. But because like I said, it involves
cover ups and corruption at the highest levels. Goodness, So
what was the motivation and and and how did this
because it sounds like from everything you're saying this tyrone
Camp was a pretty good guy, very good. There was
there was some insurance money involved, Is that right? Correct?
Insurance money? Uh? It's been rumor different finds my investigation.
(07:28):
Uh in the fifteen years it took to get me out,
was that uh Cecilia and her boyfriend wanted the oldest
sander uh as the streets say, scored up to anywhere
from a half a million to over a million dollars
in insurance proceeds. I do know, and and and did
open records requests and uh manipulative the system when we
(07:52):
are another and got a hold of records in which
I've seen it for different agency paid uh sceed your money.
So there was a witness to this crime, right, yes,
because it happened in in like a active transportation company
write a lot right Uh? And so was it at
night six six thirty five in the mornings when he
(08:16):
was pronounced am am, so there would have been some
daylight to work with, not at six five December, the
is the shortest daylight time of the year, is the longest.
So that's an interesting one too because of the fact
that this witness would not have been reliable regardless right
(08:36):
in the dark. Um but okay, and so the witness,
Kenneth Brown, he changed his story a few times. Is
that right here? As Thomas Wayne said, and Thomas Waine
shouldn't let him procede to trial. He with old and
he waffled, but he family. Family is a key word,
described Kerry reporter. So on top of the arrows, that
(08:57):
would seem I mean, if again, if we're writing a
movie script, you know, you'd say, well, this looks a
little too obvious because you got the insurance money. You
got this other guy, um Sanders, right Sanders who was
involved with your ex Right, So there's a pretty powerful
(09:18):
narrative going on there. How they might have wanted him gone,
although it's hard to believe a mother's love, you know,
and and being that you described him so eloquently as
such a good father to your son, that maybe that
would triumph over the greed. But greed is a powerful thing,
powerful and that's a lot of money. Um So, but
(09:40):
even still, the arrest, your arrest didn't happen, uh right away,
probably because they didn't have a good reason to suspect you. No,
not not not not in the beginning at all. No, right,
because there was you, You didn't stand to benefit from
this in any way, and you weren't elise of them.
From everything you're saying, you're actually happy that he was
(10:02):
feeling the role that you at that time as a
young man. And I'm not I'm not here to judge.
I mean, when I was when how old were you
at the time you had your son at the time,
my head, look carry was was a late fable, so
late later in Kentucky, New York called it early. But anyway,
twenty three, I think a lot of people, and a
lot of people are listening probably can relate to this.
(10:22):
I think a lot of people at twenty three are
still trying to find themselves, much less take care for
another little being. I'm not saying that, I'm not I'm
not saying your behavior was great or rationalized it. But
at the same time, I'm not here to judge. So
the question becomes, they wouldn't have arrested you because it
didn't look like there was any real reason too, there
was oridially nobody identifying you, and also there was no
(10:42):
again that the I mean crime investigation one oh one,
anyone who watches TV would go and wait a minute,
why didn't they look at the people who had the motivation?
And that would have made more sense, especially because something
happened seven months later that have really put anybody onto
that trail. Very good, correct, But by then they had
(11:05):
arrested you. And let's get to it because that seven
months it is a very interesting twist in this key factor.
It's a key factor, should have been a key factor,
but it wasn't right, So so they arrested you. Um,
I mean, why do you think they did that? And
when they arrested me February the twin and their alleged
motive was that I was jealous that the tyro ound
(11:26):
camp had stole my girl, as as stated in the
opening statement, and then raising my kid. That was a
motive for trial that came about through Detective Kids Rodney
Kidds investigation. That's supposed to be that I had prior
in ninety one, I had uh trash s serious department
(11:48):
in which me and uh me carrying and Cecili was
supposed to been sharing an apartment, but Tyrone was coming
over on the weekend. So sALS been involved in several
love angles. She transferred from one guy that's just doing
good to a better guy that's doing greater, and that's her.
That was her come up, so that the commonweal I
(12:10):
thought that I was a person because of this ninety
one trash and department that that created their background for
the motive. The only difference, Jason, is that that background
was a five over five years old that had nothing
else happened in five years, and that the uh Tyrone
(12:30):
Tyrone had. When I trashed apartment, I did it in
front of Tyrone, and it was said that I put
a put a gun on Tyrone at that apartment, but
there was nobody there to tell their story. But Tyrone
and Tyrone count is the one that saved me on
the indictment of trashing the Doer Book apartment. He told
them that now, Kerry did not put a gun in
(12:53):
my head, Kerry did not hold me hostage, and Kerry
had nothing against me. It was all against sealed. So
there as you anyway and charge you with the crime.
Now again, I'm thinking with sixty eight murders in the city,
the size of the sale and I have the last
body well on a political year, right, so they needed
they need to put a bowl on this one, right, Hey,
(13:14):
why not snatch anybody? Uh they had with all of
this background that they had on me, that that to
me gave them probabm calls to come after me. Just
got out of penitentiary. Has has a background for balance himself,
especially with the night the latest ninety one incident. And
I think that they used that that ninety one in
(13:36):
my background to say, hey, look, carry his own drugs.
He just got out of penitentiary. If he if he
put the case on him, he'll just go down like
any other drug and dummy and won't work on this case.
It backfired on him, but it kind of came an
easy target in my opinion. But it got a little
trick here because seven months later, like we were talking
(13:58):
a potty good you want to tell that's yes, I
do on on June the thirteen, that here happens to
be here Friday thirteenth seven, uh Cecilio Sanders send your camp.
Was involved as a getaway driver in the Hemlock murder
and which Juan Sanders win. He always Sanders shot and
(14:21):
kill Antoine Chapman. He also shot shot Anton's mother, Anita Watts.
He also shot his own uncle John. Uh, they called
John dirty Sanders and uh he walked away with a
twelve years sentence for all these shootings. But this is
six months later after after the murder of Tyrone Camp.
(14:43):
That should have raised a red fag to the Louisville police.
Then it was lp D. It should have raised the
red flag. But the difference, Jason, is that at the
time Louisville what had hadn't merged as Metro. It was
Louisville Jefferson County Police versus UH Global Global Downtown Police.
So the county police knew of my innocence and fought
(15:06):
for my innocence, and the Lobo police fought to frame me. Wow,
that's that's deep. That's a new one. Yep. We've heard
a lot of stories on this show. Listeners have heard,
you know, people telling me, man, this is one that
everyone has a different one that they they point to
as the craziest one. But I've never heard that particular.
That's so odd because you have separate entities, but up
(15:29):
under the same head is starting to hurt from this.
So you're the only one who does this and so
many twists and turns, People say, how do you deal
with this? And and by the way, when I was
mentioning all the twists and turns earlier and all the
I mean, all the factors in your crazy story of
being framed and convicted wrongfully and everything else, that I
(15:51):
forgot to mention the jail how snitch, which is a
very important part of the story too, great gully right. So,
and there's a very very interesting as back to that too,
which I think when everyone hears this, there's gonna be
a few people signed up for law school going, I
want to be the guy that discovers that kind of stuff, right,
because it's great. And then that and that, you know,
(16:11):
let's let's get into this aspect of the case, because
so here it is seven months later, an inconvenient truth emerges,
which is that the two logical suspects, Cecilia and Uh
and Juan Sanders end up being called red handed shooting
three people. And now you go, okay, so let me
(16:36):
just see here like this, we could be in like
eighth grade. We sit here and go, wait a minute, okay,
hold on, there's there's now, there's the insurance money, there's
the UH, there's the propensity to violence, the same kind
of thing shootings like it's really this one. As I say,
this one comes with instructions, right. But but that being said,
(16:57):
that didn't throw anybody off the kid. They were still
all bent on getting you, reporter, and in order to
do that they found a convenient promising willing, very willing,
who was happy to make a deal. And and this
is something that I mentioned at times to time, but
the idea to me that everyone knows to watch his
(17:20):
TV or has any type of education whatsoever. In this country,
everyone knows you cannot bribe a witness. So you can't
go to uh, you know whatever. I see somebody shoplifting
or whatever it is and they bring me in. That
guy can't come to me and say, well, I'll give you,
but just tell them it was somebody else, right that
(17:41):
that ain't happening. Everybody knows that's it gets the law.
But the government can go to a jailhouse snitch and say, listen,
I'm gonna give you the best bribe there is. I'm
gonna reduce your sentence or let you give you a
get out of jail free card or whatever it is.
All you gotta do is tell us a story on
the stand that Harry told you it happens all the time.
(18:03):
Carry told you that he did this murder, and you're gonna,
we're gonna, we're gonna be real nice to you. And
that's exactly what happened. And and by the way, I
don't even want to judge that guy because I don't
know what his particular situation and I'm not going to
excuse it either. But I don't know how anybody in
that situation. I mean, I hope I know how people
would react because it's the wrong thing to do. But
(18:25):
it's a difficult you know, it would require a lot
of soul searching. If someone saying, listen, you go hold
your family right now, you're looking at you're looking at
ten to twenty for whatever it is. M robbery? Is
that we and anyway, So but this guy was happy
to take the deal. And and interestingly, we know that
jailhouse niches are often used multiple times. They get placed
(18:48):
in cells either with or right next to people that
the authorities want, and then they sing like a bird.
So that's exactly what this guy did. But but tell
us about that, and let's get to the trial, right
because how long it to take you to get to trial?
They tried me for that murder in eighteen months. The
trial day was always twenty fifth. It began. I was
twenty five of nine. I wasn't died in February the
(19:11):
twenty seven. You do the man eighteen months on about
five days, so so you go to trial. Did you
know that this guy was gonna testify against you? That's
how it was given his statement and half what knew
before he I knew when I knew he was a
jail house plan. It was all over that he was
a jail house plan. And Great Gully still performed, still performed,
(19:35):
was jail house. Great Gulley gave an interview on February
to twelve. They put my case to gall Kenneth Brown
did identification on February the team Greg Gelly did his
on February to twelve, and Marcus Penegrass, a friend of mine,
to head a case pending. He gave his on April
twenty two of ninety seven. That those other days in
(19:58):
the critical days in which the commonweb put this witnesses
together against me, but Grey Gulley was by far as
the drul lader said. After my post conviction relief and
uh doing memory go interviewed these people, and these drawers
said that we weren't convinced with nobody but Gray Gulley.
(20:19):
Gray Gulley sold us hand, foot, tooth and nail. So
they picked a guy who was a good actor to
a good liar and a good actor. But he made
one critical mistake, right, he made the Baywatch mistake. He
did okay, So the jury goes out how long did
(20:43):
the trial last? The trial last six days? To de
said to start the first and I told my lawyer
did it would be a two week trial? And she
didn't put on she tried, and she didn't call most
of the people that uh I wanted to call. What
did you think? And it is interesting too because we've
(21:06):
had people on the show whose trials took up to
three weeks I think, And then we had Malcolm Alexander
whose trial took less than one day start to finish,
jury selection, everything else that have since to life in prison.
So um, so your trial six days? You now heard
these people get up in line. Now before we get
to the jury verdict. There was one thing that I
(21:27):
read when I was reading up about your case that
was confusing me, which was that your alibi was disputed
by the one person who could confirm it right, right,
So how did that happen? It was what went wrong there?
My niece, My niece said, uh, she didn't mean to
(21:48):
my lawyer didn't interview her, and and and I'll know
my sister and so the my niece when she told
she can't understand, she said that she thought that I
came in at eleven something, that eleven something only December
before the twenty seven and the actual time that the
income in was four thirty or five o'clock. I was
(22:11):
using drugs at the time and I've been getting high
a night on arnsmere. So when my sister said, when
my niece said at eleven, my sister said, the real
time was at at at four thirty to five five
o'clock filfifteen. What happened there? When you got a controversy
like that between two family members, they think that that one,
(22:32):
you know, one person is trying to save them and
the other was telling a little true So that left
of bad impression with the jury, I see. So it's really, uh,
it wasn't really that they contradicted you. It was more
of a misunderstanding between them which ended up looking like
you were lying. Correct and the Donald. What you're getting
at is Donald Bruteley, Donald Brutley. I was supposed to
(22:54):
have been. When I gave my saving on January seventh
and ninety seven, I told the Louiville police said, uh,
They said, do you know where you was on at
this time? Right here? And I said, yeah, probably, uh,
probably over my girlfriend's house. Did your ORGI fight? Probably so,
because we were doing drugs. So when I told them
(23:15):
the time that I was over a house, she had
been in Jadak for two uh for two days. I
was two days off. But I told my lawyer. They
put it. They we had a hearing on it, and
they produced that I was allegendly lying. But Jason went,
a lot of people don't know when you're doing drugs.
Cocaine's the one thing I don't really know. Reef it
didn't do that to him. But when you're doing cocaine,
(23:38):
when you have a big piece of drug right here,
well the days only matter to real working people and
real people when you when you're on drugs and stuff,
the only thing that matters is that one piece of drug.
Brother at last, one day, attend day. That's only one
day because you're only doing that moment. So so when
(23:59):
when when we doing drugs on our spree, we get
the times mix up because it's only one day to us.
Because as long as the drugs lasts, that's only one
day of doing drugs. Even though it's five days. It
is a bad drug and they tricks on your mind.
And that is one thing I don't recommend to anybody.
(24:20):
I struggle with that and basically penetentially broke it. Here
we are at the trial, I think sounding that they
were looking very good. I mean, but what was your feeling?
I mean, you had now been seeing some crazy stuff,
some some real games that they were playing. You're seeing
(24:40):
that they were willing to go to extraordinary la right. Yes,
and when the jury went out, did you think that
you had a chance? No, Jason, because that's let me
take you back a little bit. Jason. When I first
seen this on TV, my mother talked, my sister told
(25:00):
me abalance South. So I went to go and look
at her. Keep your mind. I'm coming off for drugs,
are doing drugs at the time, and see twenty seven.
So it's two days after Christmas. So Jason, when I
seen it on TV, it was like my little brothers
my friend Joe Talker and all these people that was
in the room looking at the same time, my sister
(25:21):
somebody kills uh seals hugs and you need to look
at it on TV. Well, I wasn't. I was knowing
I didn't Luna, and so I'm not think of me
other than the hall with line. So when I see
it on TV, it was like God was right behind me,
and God told me, they listen, I've been trying to
get you to do my work and and basically changed
(25:43):
your life. You've been running for all this time. This
is you. So Jason, I knew that day God told
me everything that I was gonna be incarcerated for it.
There was no stopping it. So that that you can
tell all you want about how other this case is
gonna be. Nobody's gonna believe you so so so, but
(26:05):
God said in the end I will prevail and that
my name will be glorified. So that's the way this case.
When So, Jason, when when everything that happened, nothing surprised
me because God had already told me that's my now,
even though I was doing drugs and stuff. I was
shocked into uh religious experience that I never I mean,
(26:28):
I told everybody, listen, man, they're gonna they're gonna get
me on this case. All of my friends said, man,
stop saying that you don't have nothing to do with it.
Why would you be saying that, Man, y'all not understand. Man,
they're gonna frame me. Man, y'all not understand. Not listen
to me, man. Chris telling us that I told my
buddy for a read I told during wood, I told
all some close people to me, and they all thought
(26:50):
I was crazy. So so Jason. When when the Verdant
came back in forty minutes, I was not shocked. I
was beyond calm. I'm you're interesting enough, you should see
the thine. I was beyond calm, and I knew that
I knew that I had to go down and fight
it from behind the bars. But you also knew that
(27:10):
it was gonna work out in the end. So and
it did. And that's and that's a really interesting part
of the story because how this thing eventually unraveled. And actually, um,
you know, as much as I don't think anyone can
comprehend what you went through eleven years behind bars, it's
actually sort of uh. I mean, the average case takes
longer of an innocent person to get their conviction overturn.
(27:33):
And we know that most innocent people never get their
convictions overturned because there's so many. In fact, the latest
estimate that just came out is at six percent of
all the people in prison in the United States are innocent.
So there you are in prison for this crime you
didn't commit um and since the sixty years so basically
(27:54):
life sentence, you would never be right. You won't you
won't go to live sixty years. And had uh you know,
I knew day one that, uh, I was calm about
everything because it was the Book of Daniels. I'm gonna
come out smelling like a rose. And God assured me that.
And I assure God that if you give me enough wisdom,
(28:17):
enough strength to fight this case, I would help everybody
that comes to me is willing to have themselves. I
went straight in, went straight to the law library, worked
the law library for the whole fifteen years I can say,
I'll call it fifteen from d SIMILAR twenty February twenty two,
I got out d S nineteen and Jason, I worked
in the long library every day all day. I did
(28:40):
this case a minimum of twelve hours minimum. If I was,
I have UH, I had seventeen laundry bags of legal work.
I still have those laundry bags of legal work and
the storage unit. My mother told me to make a
chair and I'm gonna do it and take a picture
of it. Seventeen bags. So she told me to make
(29:01):
a churve and sit in there and pose and take
a picture of it the country. Everybody needs to see that.
But that's where it took to get me out. I
know every each one of those pieces of paper either
hand rid them from the whole. I typed them up
on two tight writers. I wore out the typewriter, the
E and the A was completely wore out. I had
(29:23):
to UH. People say, man, I can't see the letters.
They can say, won't use them typewriter, I can't see
the letters on the alphabets or nothing. I said, yeah,
but here's the E I had. I had to put
a paper clip for the E. The button ball and
got sticky, so I had to reinvented. As those convicts
are clever, had a type of paper clip. I still
have that typewriter, my TV, my cooler, my hot pie
(29:46):
and all of these things. There my souvenir, and when
I built my house, I will put them in my
basement and scared the stuffings out of my bad butt. Grandkids,
if they choose to go try to go south on me,
I will I was gonna make all uh monument what
Eastern was like dorm. I I know the blocks, A
kind of the blocks. I got them, wrote down account them,
(30:08):
how high they win, new where the vent is. I
used toilet paper as my measuring stick, and I know
the whole thing. I've got it on paper what Eastern
looks like. So I'm gonna build that in my basement.
With the bean shooter we call it. That's where they
feed you through the whole at they open up a
flap that's about four inches maybe three and a half
(30:29):
four inches tall and probably about maybe sixteen inches long
fifteen sixteen inches long, and they feed you through there,
and that's where they put their handcuffs on you to
take you to transport you otherwise. So I'm gonna put
this in my basement for key other kids as a
monumental there, Hey, listen, don't be me. So let's talk
(30:52):
about the what I would call my favorite part of
the story, which is how this thing got fixed. I mean,
it could never really be fixed, because no one can
give you back those eleven years of your life. But
you have certainly made the most out of it. How
did you ultimately find your freedom? Because I love and
we're now we're finally going to let people in on
(31:13):
the bay. Watched part of the story because it's great,
right I I watched William Gregor. He was the first
guy in the nation. They get exonerated by uh D
mitochondrian DNA, first gun in the nation. He's the seven
fourth person in the in the United States to be exonerated.
(31:34):
I watched him walk out of North Point on about July,
the fifth of July at the ninth somewhere up in
a two thousand. At that time Innocent Project in Kentucky.
The Kentucky Instant Project was very new, if it was
even established all the way. So when they did found it,
when after a few months outter he left, I I wrote, uh,
(31:57):
Kentucky instcent Projects down in Eddyville. At the time they
accepted my case in November of two thousand and six,
in between the season and which say was it wasn't
supposed to take it. So now then I found out later.
There's the reason they took it where officials say that
they had officials I don't know who these officials were,
said that they had an instant man indepenitentiary and that
(32:18):
they needed to get him out. So the instant project
came to me and there's a H. Gordon Ryn and
signed Melody Low and Meldy Low and Linda Smith and
Alex Matthews u UK student. Uh. They all sat down
on my case and start doing the footwork. And that
(32:39):
was the beginning of my freedom. When you said your
case student, you mean the University of Kentucky, not not
the United Kingdom. Yeah. And so so they started working
on and what did they find. They took him six
years to be out. And I got frustrated during the
six years and me and Melody Low with counta total
toll on some phone calls. And lucky enough, I had
(33:01):
Danny Butler co case. Detective. Danny Butler came aboard and
he asked Malie Low them could he help exonerate me?
How free me? And they as a team got together.
In the last two years we produced the DNA that
was not mine to cent a piece of this case.
Jason was a llareds homemade silencer. So whoever made a
(33:26):
silencer prepared with premeditation, prepared to get away with a crime,
and a vicious crime at that so to kind was
shot with a shotgun. Yeah, so this silencer was a
cent apiece at the at the at the crime scene
actually transportation and uh, they tested the duct this soundcer
(33:48):
was comprised of duct tape. Well, I meant carpet rolled
up and duct tape and it was left at the scene.
So they got to the DNA on for this duct
tape and it was not my DNA. And then they
found out that the jailhouse snitch, Greg Gillimotors was They
found out that he was lying and that um, one
(34:09):
of the key aspects of his very damning testimony against
you was that he said I can remember it clear
as a bell that he confessed to me because I
remember at the time he did it, we were watching
Baywatch on TV. And then your guys, who obviously were
on their A game, they found out they did some
research and found out that Baywatch wasn't even on TV
that day. Baywatch is a PG thiing it had what's
(34:33):
the name, Pamela Anderson, Yes, Pamela Anderson and what's called
guy and they that's all the only time you've seen
a gun on Baywatch was if they had a like
a lifeguard race and the black guy that was a
coast guard, a beach police shot a little you know,
gold time. That's the only one, A little bit. I
(34:55):
watched the Baywatch. That's the on time I remember about it. Now,
what what Linda Melanie lowed them got that from me?
I did my homework and oh yes, I did most
most of the footwork idea, but thank you Melanie Lowe,
then the Smith and all the rest of y'all. But
I did my homework and I even wrote the guy
named They had an article in The Fine right Dave.
(35:16):
Dave was somebody you right, and asked him questions about
anything you wanted to know about any show. So I
wrote Dave several times and he found it. Got back
with him and he said, I used that as proof
to show, uh, Melly of them listen, babe, Watch don't
have no shotgun. Greg Gully's theme was there, uh that
(35:36):
we was watching Baywatching in c c C a forty
million dorm, and I told him by watching Baywatch that
this this guy that was on on the Baby White
Show was supposed to be a deaf person, a blind person,
and he shot a a she was working on a
clay figure and she had heard or Robbie, because she's blind,
(35:58):
she didn't see it. She heard it. So this burglar,
this guy knew that she was gonna be at witness
and she, according to Great Gully, blew the dumb the
clay figure's head off with a shotgun and told her
whispered in her that would be that's gonna be your
head if you try to testify against me. This far
(36:18):
fast signed. This is what Great Gully said, and he
testified it is very adamantly at trial and it was
so kind of far faster. I laughed, and my lawyer
had an elbow met. But it was so sick me
and so pathetic that it that you know anybody, because
the should have seen through that, but it wasn't so
that you have to run back to trial taping see it.
(36:38):
I know the almost exact minutes of everything, so Greg
only says its stuff, and I wrote all kinds of
people improved that there was no such Baywatch episode about
(37:00):
any clay figure and somebody shooting it with a shotgun.
So anyway, so that that baywatch actually in between saving
people from drowning, they may have actually actually had a
roll in saving your life too. So that's nice. You
were drowning in the drowning in the system, not in
a way, but anyway, So that's a that's a good Uh.
(37:21):
So you get a lot of credit for that investigative
work right there, which is great. Yeah, I did a
whole lot. I mean, that's amazing. Um. So back to this, So, ultimately,
the government's case starts completely deteriorating, falling apart, crumbling, whatever
you want to call it. And you are starting to
see a little light at the end of the tunnel going, yes,
you haven't stop smiling from what I can tell. But anyway,
(37:43):
time you've been here. Um and and then so so
how did it finally end up with you gaining your freedom? Um?
We also to back up the d N A many
load them wives strategically said, uh, let's do another lot.
I did, by the way, I did a lot of
(38:03):
detector on December januarbly seven, and that lad of Tecter
guy for Thetver police said, I passed, he sat a
pass with flying colors. So they did. They made my
my what should have been my co defender, Joe Tucker.
They made him take a little live of tater tests
two of them. He passed both of them too. So
(38:25):
he said, Joe Tucker said that he was scared to
go out of that office because when he said that,
the guy told me pass and flying clarses, I got
locked up. And so Joe Tucker was scared to go
past that office because of that. So getting back with
the line test test, we did a lot of touch
the tests and I passed that with flying cols. So
that's the second line of test tests side too. So
(38:45):
that that couple with the DNA, couple with Greg been
how snips and the deals were made with Marcus Spendergrass
and Greggs as well, and the Kenneth Brown recame that man.
I never told y'all that I really knew it was carried.
I was never one pcent sure. So all of these
(39:07):
factors end up aiding into where the common weather couldn't
couldn't bow down. And then the main thing that came
along Jason was fransch Foix cutting now fran Squire cutting
Ham and UH interested in uh doing a murder out
in Jaytown and Frank Creek, and he this was his
(39:29):
second murder. His first murder was a Mexican and was
used homemade sounds that was used in that case. So
me and Frans Squire were happened to be down North
Point together. But I didn't mess on a mess with
France Squire. Francois I wanted to talk to me several times,
and I didn't want any dealing with him because I
knew that he was part of Juan Sanders and his click.
(39:52):
They called themselves murdered ink and at one time they
called himself moms Masters of murders, so either one of
the a title spelled real bad. Now. They they were
younger than me, so I didn't know that they were
doing all this. So anyway, Fransquis uh, he called his
first murder case in ninety seven, and the lawsuit produced
(40:14):
that Fransquis told the Louila police long before my trial
who had did is why they did it, and that
they was gonna frame me. Fran Squire cutting now, so
this was the find that made that made the commonwealth days.
Stingle bowed down and had to let me go. So
we had uh. Frans Squid had ended up on his
(40:35):
second murder case. He um he got out in two
thousand and four and called him murder case in two
thousand five in which he killed two people, girl on
the guy, a couple and they were out in Fern
Creek Park, uh Frann Creek School's park and he shot
and burned them up. So he made a deal. He
took it to trial and had a miss trial, and
(40:56):
on his second time going to trial, he made a deal.
And then part of the deal was that he telled
on several murders that he knew about. At the end
of the murders, he said, oh, by the way, Kerry
reporter is also innocent and he had nothing to do
with a murder of Tyron. At the end of the interview,
oh also Kry reporters also innocent too. And here's why
(41:20):
Jan Sanders try to pay me fifty thou to kill him.
And I didn't want to take that hit, right, So
he came right out and said that Sanders had offered
him fifty thou do the murder. He turned it down,
which is kind of strange taking back on it, but whatever,
we have to get into that now. But ultimately that's
pretty powerful and then but okay, so now let's fast
(41:40):
forward to you get out right and and how I
mean I've seen, like I said, I've seen you on
TV just uh you know, the smile that you can't
seem to get rid of. And I don't even know
if you want to thank you. You know, you're walking
around New York checking everything what so. But so you
get out and no, sooner do you get out, then
(42:01):
you're calling for justice on the case and you're immediately
starting to advocate for other people in your situation. Um.
And that's really um, because there really hasn't been justice
in your case. There's no no, no arrest have been made. No.
I don't care nothing about the lawsuit. I don't care
(42:21):
nothing about no blanking money because money is what this
case was all about all the way around the board.
Uh Arne Camp lost his life because he was no
more than the money factor to my little boy's mom. Sadly, so,
our money has always been evil to me. I give
money away like it's forty one enough. I don't. I'm
(42:42):
not materialistic. I'm not called up in the money world.
Uh So when I this case, no justice because me
and Jerome Camp, Jerome Camp has been on my side,
fighting fighting the Loibal police since before on before trial.
He's been trying to tell these people, y'all have the
(43:04):
wrong person. Carry us, not the killer. It is Cecilia
and and our boyfriend. And that's the victim's family calling
for justice for their own cannon. And to their great credit, Uh,
they've stood strong by your side. Whtrong camp and we're
still friends today. We'll go to his church. On several occasion,
(43:24):
spoke in front of his congregation. We prayed in front
of his congregation. We uh, we haven't had a kind
of like vision. Let we're about to do that and
some war time. We've been working uh waiting the person
that has this case. Uh, the leader detective that has
this case doesn't seem to want to go with the
(43:46):
obvious suspects. Yeah. And I've seen your lawyer speak about
this um about how you know, he's calling for the
chief of police and lawers to to uh to to
basically the whole department right and turn it over to
a to an independent agency to do what they gotta
do to get to the bottom of this case, which
(44:08):
it seems to me I don't really. I mean, there's
a lot of things I understand, but I understand why
that would cause anybody any you know, like you would
think that everybody you know, because that's a crazy thing
to write, like even the people who are involved in
this cover up or whatever you want to call it,
or involved in yeah, involved in obstructing the justice from
(44:28):
from getting to its right get get preventing the right
outcome from happening. The crazy thing about it, on top
of all the other crazy things, is that they live
in that community too, And who's to say that they
wouldn't end up being uh, somebody they love might not
end up getting hurt by these people. These are dangerous people, right,
(44:49):
people well kill I mean anyway, we won't even get
into that now because we're not gonna do that's the
psychology show. We have to do a different psychology to
try to understand why people would would behave the way
that they do. But we can't control that, not from
this studio anyway. And all we can do is do
the best we can to try to get the word
out there about these situations, about your story, about how
(45:12):
these things happen, why why they happen, and how to
prevent them from happening in the future. And how fair
they are. And I would say that you being here
and telling this story is a real eye opener for
people who are interested in in getting into this work. Um,
and people who are are just you know, just human
beings who care about their fellow human beings who want
(45:33):
to make sure that this doesn't happen to them or
their family. Because because I think you would agree, I
say to people, if you think it can't happen to you,
we can, right, Yes, I mean that's my model. Listen,
y'all if it happened to me. Yeah, I made a
vow that that that that that because it did happen
to me, they won't get anybody that I love. They
(45:54):
definitely won't get None of my kids are grandkids. And
as a result of this case, I haven't talked to
my son o Carry since trial, uh January August seven.
Little Carry said hi, Daddy, And that's the last time
I heard Lott Carry talk to me. He has thirty
He was twins at that time. He is now thirty
(46:14):
three years of age and he has two kids. I've
seen my grandberry baby Mason one time, identical twin to me.
Everybody tells me she's identical twin to me, it will
bit lighter than me, but she she is me all
the way around the board. So I don't know how
sin seel you looks a little carry and didn't have
to look at a grand baby that she loves and
(46:36):
keeps so much that she's gonna hopefully soon have to
depart from. So Carrie, I could talk to you all day,
but unfortunately we don't have all day. Um we only
have a couple of minutes left. But we have a
tradition here on Wrong for Conviction, which is my favorite
part of the show, and uh, I think probably a
lot of people's favorite part of the show, which is
(46:57):
that at the end of the show I stopped talking,
just turn the microphone over you and say what else
would you like to share? If you had another couple
of minutes to just say anything you want and you've
covered a lot, But what else can you share with
our audience? Wasn't the main thing? Every day? Yeah? Every day?
Almost every time I eat a meal, it reminds you
(47:18):
of penitentiary, no matter if I'm from a bag of
the tailor chips to the simplest line a twister, a
nown reglarly, anything you consume you manage your penitentiary. That's
one factor. Second factor is I like to thank Jerome
count first and foremost for for having the carriage to
say that I don't think this man is the man
(47:40):
to kill my brother. For him to stick in sad me.
I don't like to thank Danny Butler for going against
uh his fellow employees and being called on kinds of
bad names. Uh. They're still over that type of line.
Whatever they called Danny Butler. I've heard some of myself,
(48:01):
so I've known that he went through hell. Detective Cocage,
Detective Danny Butler, A shot goes out to you mentally,
Low Gordon run and all of those that have exonerate me.
My family just supported me through trying to send uh
letters of hope, money and so and stamps. Took a
lot of stamps and a lot of copying to get
(48:22):
me here, y'all, a whole lot I made. The sacrifice
is a blown in cracker. I ain't the cheapest line
the canteen head. I would treat myself every blue moon
as a result of this, No holiday makes a difference
to me. I don't care about my birthday, Christmas. It's
sadly enough. I don't really give presents out it ruins you. Yes,
(48:45):
I smell all the time. I'm happy one moment and
crying the next, every day all day. So if we
as a whole society, we need to make sure that
this doesn't happen to another care reporter because you're gonna
lose an all the carry Ramon juor and that's a
big divid in the family. And you just sign this
(49:07):
this cycle is going to continue, So audience, if I
can do anything, man, please don't let this happen to
nobody else. I'm getting cheeried down, so on me in
there because I'm in New York and I want to smile. Well,
we're happy to have you here in New York. I'm
get a little choked up to uh, and I really
(49:30):
appreciate you being on the show and sharing your experience, knowledge, strength,
and and your vision for the future. So once again,
thank you everyone for listening to this very special episode
of Wrongful Conviction with carry Porter. Carry Thank you, thank
you carry Porter of the legend O that makes me smill.
(50:02):
Don't forget to give us a fantastic review wherever you
get your podcasts. It really helps. And I'm a proud
donor to the Innocence Project, and I really hope you'll
join me in supporting this very important cause and helping
to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to Innocence Project dot
org to learn how to donate and get involved. I'd
like to thank our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wardis.
(50:25):
The music on the show is by three time OSCAR
nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on
Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast.
Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flam is a production of Lava
for Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company Number one
I've never been to trouble in my life. I didn't
even have a parking ticket, and you know what I mean.
I was brought up like cops are the good guys.
I didn't know what was going to happen, but I
do know that everything was stacked against me. Everything like
everything this isn't supposed to happen this way. I'm innocent.
(00:22):
I know I'm innocent. I know I had nothing to
do with this. How is this possible? I grew up
trusting the systems. I grew up believing that every human
thing should do the right thing. And that's why, even
though Neal was dealing with corrupt people, I wasn't going
to brave anyone to get me out of prison because
I wouldn't live with the fact that I braved my
way out of my wife's death. I'm not innocent to
(00:45):
proven guilty. I'm guilty until I proved my innocence. And
that's absolutely what happened to me. Our system. Since I've
been out ten years, it's come a little ways, but
it's still broken, a totally little trust in humanity after
what happened to me. This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back
(01:18):
to wrongful Conviction with Jason Flam That's me and today
we have an amazing guy, Carry Porter as our guests
on the show. Carrie, Welcome to Wrongful Conviction. Thank you, Jason,
thank you very much for having me here. Now, I
gotta tell you Carry, Even though I've been doing this
kind of work for about twenty five years, when I
was I had to read your story several times because
it's got more twists and turns than a John Guish.
(01:41):
That's funny you say that because my child, just Thomas Whan,
is now com Webt attorney, and he said he mentioned
that my lawyer's motion were like a John Grissom movie. Okay,
what's so John, John, if you're listening very much, But
your case has love trying goes, it has mistaken witness identification,
(02:02):
it has perjury, it has false accusations, it has corruption
at the highest levels, it has cover ups, it has
I mean, it's got so many factors that you know
and and you know, and then murders happening left and
right around that it would have pointed arrows in different
directions and you know, I mean insurance claims and questions
(02:26):
and like, I mean, it's really we're gonna try to
unravel this for the audience today, So everyone's gonna have
to really follow along because this is crazy. Good luck
if we do that. The only still, the only thing
I can promise is that there's a happy ending, you know,
because there is, Yes, there is person a gluibal man
freed from prison after fourteen years for a crime he
(02:47):
didn't commit. Harry Porter has a new look at life
thanks to these seven words. Mr Porter did not commit
this cofense. The Commonwealth's Attorney says Porter was wrongfully convicted
for the nineteen murder of Tyrone Camp. New information came
to light last year as part of a separate murder investigation.
(03:08):
A key witness, Francoix Hunningham, said Porter was set up
for Camp's murder. And I've seen you. It's amazing and
I we're gonna get right into the story. But I've
seen you speak on video, I saw you do a
press conference, and you know, you really have a remarkable spirit,
and um, you know, I know you've done a lot
of work, um, trying to help prevent these things from
(03:30):
happening to other people. And you know, you have all
my respect for everything that you do as you man Okay, Well,
so let's get right into it. So you're from Louisville, Kentucky,
grew up on the same street as Muhammad Aldi, and
you actually got to meet the legend that one. Yes, yes,
the greatest, the greatest. The first time was in the
(03:51):
seventies when his job was broke. Wow, amazing, what a story. Um.
And so in the mid nineties, well, what was Louisville
like at that time? Was it a particularly violent time
in Louisville. Yes, I have the in nineties six that
was the first risk of the murder rate. I have
(04:13):
the six people got killed, and I have the last
body to tyrone count while says like Decemblary seven. And
ironically they charged me with the last body. But in
May to June, the mayor had to get on TV
and assure the public that these uh murder investigations would
(04:36):
be immediately handled expedently and professionally and everything else, and
that assurance went out the door. Well yeah, so what
he was basically saying is we'll get these solved right
or wrong. Right, We're just gonna get We're gonna make
everybody feel comfortable, even though you should feel very uncomfortable
because the real killer might well be out there. Well,
politics has sales, no better tal there you go. So
(04:58):
so let's go. Let's go to this crazy case. Right.
So the murder victim was a guy named Tyrone Camp, correct,
thirty five year old man. And can you explain the
whole circumstance and how the connections led to you? And
there was the witness that wasn't sure and then he was.
I mean, the whole thing is like, but but you
take us back because you actually, unfortunately you lived through this.
(05:20):
And like I always say to my guests, I'm happy
you're here, but I'm sorry you're here. But anyway, but okay,
so let's go back to this this murder in Tyrone Camp.
Tyrone Camp unfortunately ran across my little boys, Mama Cecilia Sanders.
Well Sanders now, but then it was Cecilia Ka Patrick.
(05:41):
We had been in a relationship for a rocky relationship
for nine years in which we had a little carry,
uh at the time that our left low carry because
of Drew my drug use. Little Carry was five years old.
So Tarrone Camp came along and he was a far
better man than and our science over Parntal's rights and
(06:02):
I think ninety three, I thought, cause I did time
for child support. Well, Tyrone uh was raising my son,
uh doing a real good job of it. What Kerry
was accustomed accustomed to was fishing and hunting, and Tyrone
didn't know how to do any of that. So he
found out how to do it and stuff and and
(06:23):
and had a little carry up on these wings as
if he was me, despite him never doing that before
in his life. So look, carry got to love in
him and on decemble, his little carries. Mama's a cities
and mom than what appears that he is one of
the persons did more than likely she's a person a
(06:43):
ventures in the death of Tyrone Camp And what was
the motivation here? And who I mean? Obviously it's still
speculation because there hasn't been any real not any real
serious reinvestigation ever since you got out, which is now
several years ago, but which is a very I mean,
and I saw your lawyer speaking very eloquently and very
powerfully on this topic. Um, and it's it's a it's
(07:05):
a heavy topic. But because like I said, it involves
cover ups and corruption at the highest levels. Goodness, So
what was the motivation and and and how did this
because it sounds like from everything you're saying this tyrone
Camp was a pretty good guy, very good. There was
there was some insurance money involved, Is that right? Correct?
Insurance money? Uh? It's been rumor different finds my investigation.
(07:28):
Uh in the fifteen years it took to get me out,
was that uh Cecilia and her boyfriend wanted the oldest
sander uh as the streets say, scored up to anywhere
from a half a million to over a million dollars
in insurance proceeds. I do know, and and and did
open records requests and uh manipulative the system when we
(07:52):
are another and got a hold of records in which
I've seen it for different agency paid uh sceed your money.
So there was a witness to this crime, right, yes,
because it happened in in like a active transportation company
write a lot right Uh? And so was it at
night six six thirty five in the mornings when he
(08:16):
was pronounced am am, so there would have been some
daylight to work with, not at six five December, the
is the shortest daylight time of the year, is the longest.
So that's an interesting one too because of the fact
that this witness would not have been reliable regardless right
(08:36):
in the dark. Um but okay, and so the witness,
Kenneth Brown, he changed his story a few times. Is
that right here? As Thomas Wayne said, and Thomas Waine
shouldn't let him procede to trial. He with old and
he waffled, but he family. Family is a key word,
described Kerry reporter. So on top of the arrows, that
(08:57):
would seem I mean, if again, if we're writing a
movie script, you know, you'd say, well, this looks a
little too obvious because you got the insurance money. You
got this other guy, um Sanders, right Sanders who was
involved with your ex Right, So there's a pretty powerful
(09:18):
narrative going on there. How they might have wanted him gone,
although it's hard to believe a mother's love, you know,
and and being that you described him so eloquently as
such a good father to your son, that maybe that
would triumph over the greed. But greed is a powerful thing,
powerful and that's a lot of money. Um So, but
(09:40):
even still, the arrest, your arrest didn't happen, uh right away,
probably because they didn't have a good reason to suspect you. No,
not not not not in the beginning at all. No, right,
because there was you, You didn't stand to benefit from
this in any way, and you weren't elise of them.
From everything you're saying, you're actually happy that he was
(10:02):
feeling the role that you at that time as a
young man. And I'm not I'm not here to judge.
I mean, when I was when how old were you
at the time you had your son at the time,
my head, look carry was was a late fable, so
late later in Kentucky, New York called it early. But anyway,
twenty three, I think a lot of people, and a
lot of people are listening probably can relate to this.
(10:22):
I think a lot of people at twenty three are
still trying to find themselves, much less take care for
another little being. I'm not saying that, I'm not I'm
not saying your behavior was great or rationalized it. But
at the same time, I'm not here to judge. So
the question becomes, they wouldn't have arrested you because it
didn't look like there was any real reason too, there
was oridially nobody identifying you, and also there was no
(10:42):
again that the I mean crime investigation one oh one,
anyone who watches TV would go and wait a minute,
why didn't they look at the people who had the motivation?
And that would have made more sense, especially because something
happened seven months later that have really put anybody onto
that trail. Very good, correct, But by then they had
(11:05):
arrested you. And let's get to it because that seven
months it is a very interesting twist in this key factor.
It's a key factor, should have been a key factor,
but it wasn't right, So so they arrested you. Um,
I mean, why do you think they did that? And
when they arrested me February the twin and their alleged
motive was that I was jealous that the tyro ound
(11:26):
camp had stole my girl, as as stated in the
opening statement, and then raising my kid. That was a
motive for trial that came about through Detective Kids Rodney
Kidds investigation. That's supposed to be that I had prior
in ninety one, I had uh trash s serious department
(11:48):
in which me and uh me carrying and Cecili was
supposed to been sharing an apartment, but Tyrone was coming
over on the weekend. So sALS been involved in several
love angles. She transferred from one guy that's just doing
good to a better guy that's doing greater, and that's her.
That was her come up, so that the commonweal I
(12:10):
thought that I was a person because of this ninety
one trash and department that that created their background for
the motive. The only difference, Jason, is that that background
was a five over five years old that had nothing
else happened in five years, and that the uh Tyrone
(12:30):
Tyrone had. When I trashed apartment, I did it in
front of Tyrone, and it was said that I put
a put a gun on Tyrone at that apartment, but
there was nobody there to tell their story. But Tyrone
and Tyrone count is the one that saved me on
the indictment of trashing the Doer Book apartment. He told
them that now, Kerry did not put a gun in
(12:53):
my head, Kerry did not hold me hostage, and Kerry
had nothing against me. It was all against sealed. So
there as you anyway and charge you with the crime.
Now again, I'm thinking with sixty eight murders in the city,
the size of the sale and I have the last
body well on a political year, right, so they needed
they need to put a bowl on this one, right, Hey,
(13:14):
why not snatch anybody? Uh they had with all of
this background that they had on me, that that to
me gave them probabm calls to come after me. Just
got out of penitentiary. Has has a background for balance himself,
especially with the night the latest ninety one incident. And
I think that they used that that ninety one in
(13:36):
my background to say, hey, look, carry his own drugs.
He just got out of penitentiary. If he if he
put the case on him, he'll just go down like
any other drug and dummy and won't work on this case.
It backfired on him, but it kind of came an
easy target in my opinion. But it got a little
trick here because seven months later, like we were talking
(13:58):
a potty good you want to tell that's yes, I
do on on June the thirteen, that here happens to
be here Friday thirteenth seven, uh Cecilio Sanders send your camp.
Was involved as a getaway driver in the Hemlock murder
and which Juan Sanders win. He always Sanders shot and
(14:21):
kill Antoine Chapman. He also shot shot Anton's mother, Anita Watts.
He also shot his own uncle John. Uh, they called
John dirty Sanders and uh he walked away with a
twelve years sentence for all these shootings. But this is
six months later after after the murder of Tyrone Camp.
(14:43):
That should have raised a red fag to the Louisville police.
Then it was lp D. It should have raised the
red flag. But the difference, Jason, is that at the
time Louisville what had hadn't merged as Metro. It was
Louisville Jefferson County Police versus UH Global Global Downtown Police.
So the county police knew of my innocence and fought
(15:06):
for my innocence, and the Lobo police fought to frame me. Wow,
that's that's deep. That's a new one. Yep. We've heard
a lot of stories on this show. Listeners have heard,
you know, people telling me, man, this is one that
everyone has a different one that they they point to
as the craziest one. But I've never heard that particular.
That's so odd because you have separate entities, but up
(15:29):
under the same head is starting to hurt from this.
So you're the only one who does this and so
many twists and turns, People say, how do you deal
with this? And and by the way, when I was
mentioning all the twists and turns earlier and all the
I mean, all the factors in your crazy story of
being framed and convicted wrongfully and everything else, that I
(15:51):
forgot to mention the jail how snitch, which is a
very important part of the story too, great gully right. So,
and there's a very very interesting as back to that too,
which I think when everyone hears this, there's gonna be
a few people signed up for law school going, I
want to be the guy that discovers that kind of stuff, right,
because it's great. And then that and that, you know,
(16:11):
let's let's get into this aspect of the case, because
so here it is seven months later, an inconvenient truth emerges,
which is that the two logical suspects, Cecilia and Uh
and Juan Sanders end up being called red handed shooting
three people. And now you go, okay, so let me
(16:36):
just see here like this, we could be in like
eighth grade. We sit here and go, wait a minute, okay,
hold on, there's there's now, there's the insurance money, there's
the UH, there's the propensity to violence, the same kind
of thing shootings like it's really this one. As I say,
this one comes with instructions, right. But but that being said,
(16:57):
that didn't throw anybody off the kid. They were still
all bent on getting you, reporter, and in order to
do that they found a convenient promising willing, very willing,
who was happy to make a deal. And and this
is something that I mentioned at times to time, but
the idea to me that everyone knows to watch his
(17:20):
TV or has any type of education whatsoever. In this country,
everyone knows you cannot bribe a witness. So you can't
go to uh, you know whatever. I see somebody shoplifting
or whatever it is and they bring me in. That
guy can't come to me and say, well, I'll give you,
but just tell them it was somebody else, right that
(17:41):
that ain't happening. Everybody knows that's it gets the law.
But the government can go to a jailhouse snitch and say, listen,
I'm gonna give you the best bribe there is. I'm
gonna reduce your sentence or let you give you a
get out of jail free card or whatever it is.
All you gotta do is tell us a story on
the stand that Harry told you it happens all the time.
(18:03):
Carry told you that he did this murder, and you're gonna,
we're gonna, we're gonna be real nice to you. And
that's exactly what happened. And and by the way, I
don't even want to judge that guy because I don't
know what his particular situation and I'm not going to
excuse it either. But I don't know how anybody in
that situation. I mean, I hope I know how people
would react because it's the wrong thing to do. But
(18:25):
it's a difficult you know, it would require a lot
of soul searching. If someone saying, listen, you go hold
your family right now, you're looking at you're looking at
ten to twenty for whatever it is. M robbery? Is
that we and anyway, So but this guy was happy
to take the deal. And and interestingly, we know that
jailhouse niches are often used multiple times. They get placed
(18:48):
in cells either with or right next to people that
the authorities want, and then they sing like a bird.
So that's exactly what this guy did. But but tell
us about that, and let's get to the trial, right
because how long it to take you to get to trial?
They tried me for that murder in eighteen months. The
trial day was always twenty fifth. It began. I was
twenty five of nine. I wasn't died in February the
(19:11):
twenty seven. You do the man eighteen months on about
five days, so so you go to trial. Did you
know that this guy was gonna testify against you? That's
how it was given his statement and half what knew
before he I knew when I knew he was a
jail house plan. It was all over that he was
a jail house plan. And Great Gully still performed, still performed,
(19:35):
was jail house. Great Gulley gave an interview on February
to twelve. They put my case to gall Kenneth Brown
did identification on February the team Greg Gelly did his
on February to twelve, and Marcus Penegrass, a friend of mine,
to head a case pending. He gave his on April
twenty two of ninety seven. That those other days in
(19:58):
the critical days in which the commonweb put this witnesses
together against me, but Grey Gulley was by far as
the drul lader said. After my post conviction relief and
uh doing memory go interviewed these people, and these drawers
said that we weren't convinced with nobody but Gray Gulley.
(20:19):
Gray Gulley sold us hand, foot, tooth and nail. So
they picked a guy who was a good actor to
a good liar and a good actor. But he made
one critical mistake, right, he made the Baywatch mistake. He
did okay, So the jury goes out how long did
(20:43):
the trial last? The trial last six days? To de
said to start the first and I told my lawyer
did it would be a two week trial? And she
didn't put on she tried, and she didn't call most
of the people that uh I wanted to call. What
did you think? And it is interesting too because we've
(21:06):
had people on the show whose trials took up to
three weeks I think, And then we had Malcolm Alexander
whose trial took less than one day start to finish,
jury selection, everything else that have since to life in prison.
So um, so your trial six days? You now heard
these people get up in line. Now before we get
to the jury verdict. There was one thing that I
(21:27):
read when I was reading up about your case that
was confusing me, which was that your alibi was disputed
by the one person who could confirm it right, right,
So how did that happen? It was what went wrong there?
My niece, My niece said, uh, she didn't mean to
(21:48):
my lawyer didn't interview her, and and and I'll know
my sister and so the my niece when she told
she can't understand, she said that she thought that I
came in at eleven something, that eleven something only December
before the twenty seven and the actual time that the
income in was four thirty or five o'clock. I was
(22:11):
using drugs at the time and I've been getting high
a night on arnsmere. So when my sister said, when
my niece said at eleven, my sister said, the real
time was at at at four thirty to five five
o'clock filfifteen. What happened there? When you got a controversy
like that between two family members, they think that that one,
(22:32):
you know, one person is trying to save them and
the other was telling a little true So that left
of bad impression with the jury, I see. So it's really, uh,
it wasn't really that they contradicted you. It was more
of a misunderstanding between them which ended up looking like
you were lying. Correct and the Donald. What you're getting
at is Donald Bruteley, Donald Brutley. I was supposed to
(22:54):
have been. When I gave my saving on January seventh
and ninety seven, I told the Louiville police said, uh,
They said, do you know where you was on at
this time? Right here? And I said, yeah, probably, uh,
probably over my girlfriend's house. Did your ORGI fight? Probably so,
because we were doing drugs. So when I told them
(23:15):
the time that I was over a house, she had
been in Jadak for two uh for two days. I
was two days off. But I told my lawyer. They
put it. They we had a hearing on it, and
they produced that I was allegendly lying. But Jason went,
a lot of people don't know when you're doing drugs.
Cocaine's the one thing I don't really know. Reef it
didn't do that to him. But when you're doing cocaine,
(23:38):
when you have a big piece of drug right here,
well the days only matter to real working people and
real people when you when you're on drugs and stuff,
the only thing that matters is that one piece of drug.
Brother at last, one day, attend day. That's only one
day because you're only doing that moment. So so when
(23:59):
when when we doing drugs on our spree, we get
the times mix up because it's only one day to us.
Because as long as the drugs lasts, that's only one
day of doing drugs. Even though it's five days. It
is a bad drug and they tricks on your mind.
And that is one thing I don't recommend to anybody.
(24:20):
I struggle with that and basically penetentially broke it. Here
we are at the trial, I think sounding that they
were looking very good. I mean, but what was your feeling?
I mean, you had now been seeing some crazy stuff,
some some real games that they were playing. You're seeing
(24:40):
that they were willing to go to extraordinary la right. Yes,
and when the jury went out, did you think that
you had a chance? No, Jason, because that's let me
take you back a little bit. Jason. When I first
seen this on TV, my mother talked, my sister told
(25:00):
me abalance South. So I went to go and look
at her. Keep your mind. I'm coming off for drugs,
are doing drugs at the time, and see twenty seven.
So it's two days after Christmas. So Jason, when I
seen it on TV, it was like my little brothers
my friend Joe Talker and all these people that was
in the room looking at the same time, my sister
(25:21):
somebody kills uh seals hugs and you need to look
at it on TV. Well, I wasn't. I was knowing
I didn't Luna, and so I'm not think of me
other than the hall with line. So when I see
it on TV, it was like God was right behind me,
and God told me, they listen, I've been trying to
get you to do my work and and basically changed
(25:43):
your life. You've been running for all this time. This
is you. So Jason, I knew that day God told
me everything that I was gonna be incarcerated for it.
There was no stopping it. So that that you can
tell all you want about how other this case is
gonna be. Nobody's gonna believe you so so so, but
(26:05):
God said in the end I will prevail and that
my name will be glorified. So that's the way this case.
When So, Jason, when when everything that happened, nothing surprised
me because God had already told me that's my now,
even though I was doing drugs and stuff. I was
shocked into uh religious experience that I never I mean,
(26:28):
I told everybody, listen, man, they're gonna they're gonna get
me on this case. All of my friends said, man,
stop saying that you don't have nothing to do with it.
Why would you be saying that, Man, y'all not understand. Man,
they're gonna frame me. Man, y'all not understand. Not listen
to me, man. Chris telling us that I told my
buddy for a read I told during wood, I told
all some close people to me, and they all thought
(26:50):
I was crazy. So so Jason. When when the Verdant
came back in forty minutes, I was not shocked. I
was beyond calm. I'm you're interesting enough, you should see
the thine. I was beyond calm, and I knew that
I knew that I had to go down and fight
it from behind the bars. But you also knew that
(27:10):
it was gonna work out in the end. So and
it did. And that's and that's a really interesting part
of the story because how this thing eventually unraveled. And actually, um,
you know, as much as I don't think anyone can
comprehend what you went through eleven years behind bars, it's
actually sort of uh. I mean, the average case takes
longer of an innocent person to get their conviction overturn.
(27:33):
And we know that most innocent people never get their
convictions overturned because there's so many. In fact, the latest
estimate that just came out is at six percent of
all the people in prison in the United States are innocent.
So there you are in prison for this crime you
didn't commit um and since the sixty years so basically
(27:54):
life sentence, you would never be right. You won't you
won't go to live sixty years. And had uh you know,
I knew day one that, uh, I was calm about
everything because it was the Book of Daniels. I'm gonna
come out smelling like a rose. And God assured me that.
And I assure God that if you give me enough wisdom,
(28:17):
enough strength to fight this case, I would help everybody
that comes to me is willing to have themselves. I
went straight in, went straight to the law library, worked
the law library for the whole fifteen years I can say,
I'll call it fifteen from d SIMILAR twenty February twenty two,
I got out d S nineteen and Jason, I worked
in the long library every day all day. I did
(28:40):
this case a minimum of twelve hours minimum. If I was,
I have UH, I had seventeen laundry bags of legal work.
I still have those laundry bags of legal work and
the storage unit. My mother told me to make a
chair and I'm gonna do it and take a picture
of it. Seventeen bags. So she told me to make
(29:01):
a churve and sit in there and pose and take
a picture of it the country. Everybody needs to see that.
But that's where it took to get me out. I
know every each one of those pieces of paper either
hand rid them from the whole. I typed them up
on two tight writers. I wore out the typewriter, the
E and the A was completely wore out. I had
(29:23):
to UH. People say, man, I can't see the letters.
They can say, won't use them typewriter, I can't see
the letters on the alphabets or nothing. I said, yeah,
but here's the E I had. I had to put
a paper clip for the E. The button ball and
got sticky, so I had to reinvented. As those convicts
are clever, had a type of paper clip. I still
have that typewriter, my TV, my cooler, my hot pie
(29:46):
and all of these things. There my souvenir, and when
I built my house, I will put them in my
basement and scared the stuffings out of my bad butt. Grandkids,
if they choose to go try to go south on me,
I will I was gonna make all uh monument what
Eastern was like dorm. I I know the blocks, A
kind of the blocks. I got them, wrote down account them,
(30:08):
how high they win, new where the vent is. I
used toilet paper as my measuring stick, and I know
the whole thing. I've got it on paper what Eastern
looks like. So I'm gonna build that in my basement.
With the bean shooter we call it. That's where they
feed you through the whole at they open up a
flap that's about four inches maybe three and a half
(30:29):
four inches tall and probably about maybe sixteen inches long
fifteen sixteen inches long, and they feed you through there,
and that's where they put their handcuffs on you to
take you to transport you otherwise. So I'm gonna put
this in my basement for key other kids as a
monumental there, Hey, listen, don't be me. So let's talk
(30:52):
about the what I would call my favorite part of
the story, which is how this thing got fixed. I mean,
it could never really be fixed, because no one can
give you back those eleven years of your life. But
you have certainly made the most out of it. How
did you ultimately find your freedom? Because I love and
we're now we're finally going to let people in on
(31:13):
the bay. Watched part of the story because it's great,
right I I watched William Gregor. He was the first
guy in the nation. They get exonerated by uh D
mitochondrian DNA, first gun in the nation. He's the seven
fourth person in the in the United States to be exonerated.
(31:34):
I watched him walk out of North Point on about July,
the fifth of July at the ninth somewhere up in
a two thousand. At that time Innocent Project in Kentucky.
The Kentucky Instant Project was very new, if it was
even established all the way. So when they did found it,
when after a few months outter he left, I I wrote, uh,
(31:57):
Kentucky instcent Projects down in Eddyville. At the time they
accepted my case in November of two thousand and six,
in between the season and which say was it wasn't
supposed to take it. So now then I found out later.
There's the reason they took it where officials say that
they had officials I don't know who these officials were,
said that they had an instant man indepenitentiary and that
(32:18):
they needed to get him out. So the instant project
came to me and there's a H. Gordon Ryn and
signed Melody Low and Meldy Low and Linda Smith and
Alex Matthews u UK student. Uh. They all sat down
on my case and start doing the footwork. And that
(32:39):
was the beginning of my freedom. When you said your
case student, you mean the University of Kentucky, not not
the United Kingdom. Yeah. And so so they started working
on and what did they find. They took him six
years to be out. And I got frustrated during the
six years and me and Melody Low with counta total
toll on some phone calls. And lucky enough, I had
(33:01):
Danny Butler co case. Detective. Danny Butler came aboard and
he asked Malie Low them could he help exonerate me?
How free me? And they as a team got together.
In the last two years we produced the DNA that
was not mine to cent a piece of this case.
Jason was a llareds homemade silencer. So whoever made a
(33:26):
silencer prepared with premeditation, prepared to get away with a crime,
and a vicious crime at that so to kind was
shot with a shotgun. Yeah, so this silencer was a
cent apiece at the at the at the crime scene
actually transportation and uh, they tested the duct this soundcer
(33:48):
was comprised of duct tape. Well, I meant carpet rolled
up and duct tape and it was left at the scene.
So they got to the DNA on for this duct
tape and it was not my DNA. And then they
found out that the jailhouse snitch, Greg Gillimotors was They
found out that he was lying and that um, one
(34:09):
of the key aspects of his very damning testimony against
you was that he said I can remember it clear
as a bell that he confessed to me because I
remember at the time he did it, we were watching
Baywatch on TV. And then your guys, who obviously were
on their A game, they found out they did some
research and found out that Baywatch wasn't even on TV
that day. Baywatch is a PG thiing it had what's
(34:33):
the name, Pamela Anderson, Yes, Pamela Anderson and what's called
guy and they that's all the only time you've seen
a gun on Baywatch was if they had a like
a lifeguard race and the black guy that was a
coast guard, a beach police shot a little you know,
gold time. That's the only one, A little bit. I
(34:55):
watched the Baywatch. That's the on time I remember about it. Now,
what what Linda Melanie lowed them got that from me?
I did my homework and oh yes, I did most
most of the footwork idea, but thank you Melanie Lowe,
then the Smith and all the rest of y'all. But
I did my homework and I even wrote the guy
named They had an article in The Fine right Dave.
(35:16):
Dave was somebody you right, and asked him questions about
anything you wanted to know about any show. So I
wrote Dave several times and he found it. Got back
with him and he said, I used that as proof
to show, uh, Melly of them listen, babe, Watch don't
have no shotgun. Greg Gully's theme was there, uh that
(35:36):
we was watching Baywatching in c c C a forty
million dorm, and I told him by watching Baywatch that
this this guy that was on on the Baby White
Show was supposed to be a deaf person, a blind person,
and he shot a a she was working on a
clay figure and she had heard or Robbie, because she's blind,
(35:58):
she didn't see it. She heard it. So this burglar,
this guy knew that she was gonna be at witness
and she, according to Great Gully, blew the dumb the
clay figure's head off with a shotgun and told her
whispered in her that would be that's gonna be your
head if you try to testify against me. This far
(36:18):
fast signed. This is what Great Gully said, and he
testified it is very adamantly at trial and it was
so kind of far faster. I laughed, and my lawyer
had an elbow met. But it was so sick me
and so pathetic that it that you know anybody, because
the should have seen through that, but it wasn't so
that you have to run back to trial taping see it.
(36:38):
I know the almost exact minutes of everything, so Greg
only says its stuff, and I wrote all kinds of
people improved that there was no such Baywatch episode about
(37:00):
any clay figure and somebody shooting it with a shotgun.
So anyway, so that that baywatch actually in between saving
people from drowning, they may have actually actually had a
roll in saving your life too. So that's nice. You
were drowning in the drowning in the system, not in
a way, but anyway, So that's a that's a good Uh.
(37:21):
So you get a lot of credit for that investigative
work right there, which is great. Yeah, I did a
whole lot. I mean, that's amazing. Um. So back to this, So, ultimately,
the government's case starts completely deteriorating, falling apart, crumbling, whatever
you want to call it. And you are starting to
see a little light at the end of the tunnel going, yes,
you haven't stop smiling from what I can tell. But anyway,
(37:43):
time you've been here. Um and and then so so
how did it finally end up with you gaining your freedom? Um?
We also to back up the d N A many
load them wives strategically said, uh, let's do another lot.
I did, by the way, I did a lot of
(38:03):
detector on December januarbly seven, and that lad of Tecter
guy for Thetver police said, I passed, he sat a
pass with flying colors. So they did. They made my
my what should have been my co defender, Joe Tucker.
They made him take a little live of tater tests
two of them. He passed both of them too. So
(38:25):
he said, Joe Tucker said that he was scared to
go out of that office because when he said that,
the guy told me pass and flying clarses, I got
locked up. And so Joe Tucker was scared to go
past that office because of that. So getting back with
the line test test, we did a lot of touch
the tests and I passed that with flying cols. So
that's the second line of test tests side too. So
(38:45):
that that couple with the DNA, couple with Greg been
how snips and the deals were made with Marcus Spendergrass
and Greggs as well, and the Kenneth Brown recame that man.
I never told y'all that I really knew it was carried.
I was never one pcent sure. So all of these
(39:07):
factors end up aiding into where the common weather couldn't
couldn't bow down. And then the main thing that came
along Jason was fransch Foix cutting now fran Squire cutting
Ham and UH interested in uh doing a murder out
in Jaytown and Frank Creek, and he this was his
(39:29):
second murder. His first murder was a Mexican and was
used homemade sounds that was used in that case. So
me and Frans Squire were happened to be down North
Point together. But I didn't mess on a mess with
France Squire. Francois I wanted to talk to me several times,
and I didn't want any dealing with him because I
knew that he was part of Juan Sanders and his click.
(39:52):
They called themselves murdered ink and at one time they
called himself moms Masters of murders, so either one of
the a title spelled real bad. Now. They they were
younger than me, so I didn't know that they were
doing all this. So anyway, Fransquis uh, he called his
first murder case in ninety seven, and the lawsuit produced
(40:14):
that Fransquis told the Louila police long before my trial
who had did is why they did it, and that
they was gonna frame me. Fran Squire cutting now, so
this was the find that made that made the commonwealth days.
Stingle bowed down and had to let me go. So
we had uh. Frans Squid had ended up on his
(40:35):
second murder case. He um he got out in two
thousand and four and called him murder case in two
thousand five in which he killed two people, girl on
the guy, a couple and they were out in Fern
Creek Park, uh Frann Creek School's park and he shot
and burned them up. So he made a deal. He
took it to trial and had a miss trial, and
(40:56):
on his second time going to trial, he made a deal.
And then part of the deal was that he telled
on several murders that he knew about. At the end
of the murders, he said, oh, by the way, Kerry
reporter is also innocent and he had nothing to do
with a murder of Tyron. At the end of the interview,
oh also Kry reporters also innocent too. And here's why
(41:20):
Jan Sanders try to pay me fifty thou to kill him.
And I didn't want to take that hit, right, So
he came right out and said that Sanders had offered
him fifty thou do the murder. He turned it down,
which is kind of strange taking back on it, but whatever,
we have to get into that now. But ultimately that's
pretty powerful and then but okay, so now let's fast
(41:40):
forward to you get out right and and how I
mean I've seen, like I said, I've seen you on
TV just uh you know, the smile that you can't
seem to get rid of. And I don't even know
if you want to thank you. You know, you're walking
around New York checking everything what so. But so you
get out and no, sooner do you get out, then
(42:01):
you're calling for justice on the case and you're immediately
starting to advocate for other people in your situation. Um.
And that's really um, because there really hasn't been justice
in your case. There's no no, no arrest have been made. No.
I don't care nothing about the lawsuit. I don't care
(42:21):
nothing about no blanking money because money is what this
case was all about all the way around the board.
Uh Arne Camp lost his life because he was no
more than the money factor to my little boy's mom. Sadly, so,
our money has always been evil to me. I give
money away like it's forty one enough. I don't. I'm
(42:42):
not materialistic. I'm not called up in the money world.
Uh So when I this case, no justice because me
and Jerome Camp, Jerome Camp has been on my side,
fighting fighting the Loibal police since before on before trial.
He's been trying to tell these people, y'all have the
(43:04):
wrong person. Carry us, not the killer. It is Cecilia
and and our boyfriend. And that's the victim's family calling
for justice for their own cannon. And to their great credit, Uh,
they've stood strong by your side. Whtrong camp and we're
still friends today. We'll go to his church. On several occasion,
(43:24):
spoke in front of his congregation. We prayed in front
of his congregation. We uh, we haven't had a kind
of like vision. Let we're about to do that and
some war time. We've been working uh waiting the person
that has this case. Uh, the leader detective that has
this case doesn't seem to want to go with the
(43:46):
obvious suspects. Yeah. And I've seen your lawyer speak about
this um about how you know, he's calling for the
chief of police and lawers to to uh to to
basically the whole department right and turn it over to
a to an independent agency to do what they gotta
do to get to the bottom of this case, which
(44:08):
it seems to me I don't really. I mean, there's
a lot of things I understand, but I understand why
that would cause anybody any you know, like you would
think that everybody you know, because that's a crazy thing
to write, like even the people who are involved in
this cover up or whatever you want to call it,
or involved in yeah, involved in obstructing the justice from
(44:28):
from getting to its right get get preventing the right
outcome from happening. The crazy thing about it, on top
of all the other crazy things, is that they live
in that community too, And who's to say that they
wouldn't end up being uh, somebody they love might not
end up getting hurt by these people. These are dangerous people, right,
(44:49):
people well kill I mean anyway, we won't even get
into that now because we're not gonna do that's the
psychology show. We have to do a different psychology to
try to understand why people would would behave the way
that they do. But we can't control that, not from
this studio anyway. And all we can do is do
the best we can to try to get the word
out there about these situations, about your story, about how
(45:12):
these things happen, why why they happen, and how to
prevent them from happening in the future. And how fair
they are. And I would say that you being here
and telling this story is a real eye opener for
people who are interested in in getting into this work. Um,
and people who are are just you know, just human
beings who care about their fellow human beings who want
(45:33):
to make sure that this doesn't happen to them or
their family. Because because I think you would agree, I
say to people, if you think it can't happen to you,
we can, right, Yes, I mean that's my model. Listen,
y'all if it happened to me. Yeah, I made a
vow that that that that that because it did happen
to me, they won't get anybody that I love. They
(45:54):
definitely won't get None of my kids are grandkids. And
as a result of this case, I haven't talked to
my son o Carry since trial, uh January August seven.
Little Carry said hi, Daddy, And that's the last time
I heard Lott Carry talk to me. He has thirty
He was twins at that time. He is now thirty
(46:14):
three years of age and he has two kids. I've
seen my grandberry baby Mason one time, identical twin to me.
Everybody tells me she's identical twin to me, it will
bit lighter than me, but she she is me all
the way around the board. So I don't know how
sin seel you looks a little carry and didn't have
to look at a grand baby that she loves and
(46:36):
keeps so much that she's gonna hopefully soon have to
depart from. So Carrie, I could talk to you all day,
but unfortunately we don't have all day. Um we only
have a couple of minutes left. But we have a
tradition here on Wrong for Conviction, which is my favorite
part of the show, and uh, I think probably a
lot of people's favorite part of the show, which is
(46:57):
that at the end of the show I stopped talking,
just turn the microphone over you and say what else
would you like to share? If you had another couple
of minutes to just say anything you want and you've
covered a lot, But what else can you share with
our audience? Wasn't the main thing? Every day? Yeah? Every day?
Almost every time I eat a meal, it reminds you
(47:18):
of penitentiary, no matter if I'm from a bag of
the tailor chips to the simplest line a twister, a
nown reglarly, anything you consume you manage your penitentiary. That's
one factor. Second factor is I like to thank Jerome
count first and foremost for for having the carriage to
say that I don't think this man is the man
(47:40):
to kill my brother. For him to stick in sad me.
I don't like to thank Danny Butler for going against
uh his fellow employees and being called on kinds of
bad names. Uh. They're still over that type of line.
Whatever they called Danny Butler. I've heard some of myself,
(48:01):
so I've known that he went through hell. Detective Cocage,
Detective Danny Butler, A shot goes out to you mentally,
Low Gordon run and all of those that have exonerate me.
My family just supported me through trying to send uh
letters of hope, money and so and stamps. Took a
lot of stamps and a lot of copying to get
(48:22):
me here, y'all, a whole lot I made. The sacrifice
is a blown in cracker. I ain't the cheapest line
the canteen head. I would treat myself every blue moon
as a result of this, No holiday makes a difference
to me. I don't care about my birthday, Christmas. It's
sadly enough. I don't really give presents out it ruins you. Yes,
(48:45):
I smell all the time. I'm happy one moment and
crying the next, every day all day. So if we
as a whole society, we need to make sure that
this doesn't happen to another care reporter because you're gonna
lose an all the carry Ramon juor and that's a
big divid in the family. And you just sign this
(49:07):
this cycle is going to continue, So audience, if I
can do anything, man, please don't let this happen to
nobody else. I'm getting cheeried down, so on me in
there because I'm in New York and I want to smile. Well,
we're happy to have you here in New York. I'm
get a little choked up to uh, and I really
(49:30):
appreciate you being on the show and sharing your experience, knowledge, strength,
and and your vision for the future. So once again,
thank you everyone for listening to this very special episode
of Wrongful Conviction with carry Porter. Carry Thank you, thank
you carry Porter of the legend O that makes me smill.
(50:02):
Don't forget to give us a fantastic review wherever you
get your podcasts. It really helps. And I'm a proud
donor to the Innocence Project, and I really hope you'll
join me in supporting this very important cause and helping
to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to Innocence Project dot
org to learn how to donate and get involved. I'd
like to thank our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wardis.
(50:25):
The music on the show is by three time OSCAR
nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on
Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast.
Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flam is a production of Lava
for Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company Number one
Hosts And Creators
Lauren Bright Pacheco
Maggie Freleng
Jason Flom
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