March 18, 2019 • 52 mins
Harold “House” Moore was on top the world–he was one of the stars on the Fox award-winning series *Atlanta *and had just played Dr. Dre in the 2Pac biopic All Eyez on Me. Harold’s career was blossoming, but all of that changed when he was railroaded, maliciously and falsely accused, and convicted of child molestation. He was sentenced to 6 to 12 years but was released after 2 years and granted a motion for a new trial, after a failed judicial process and intentionally suppressed evidence that would have proven his innocence threatened to surface. He is paving his way now as a fighter for judicial equality and criminal justice reform. In his first interview since his release, Harold is sharing his story with the hope that his journey will help inspire others to fight on behalf of the wrongfully convicted.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
This call is from a correction facility, and it's subject
to monitoring and recording exactly a hundred years. That's manly.
(00:21):
I'm a kid. I didn't do anything, you know, and uh,
you know that was that was real painful, man, no,
because my life was discarded as if you know, like
I was a piece of trash or something, you know,
a hundred years and I had dreams and I wanted
to do things. I wouldn't commit me crimes. You know.
That was a very good young man. That is what
(00:43):
happened in so many cases. The cops have a hunch
because they're so smart at the scene, they have a hunch,
and once they act on that hunch, they sort of
developed tunnel vision and they take off marching in the
wrong direction. And that happens in so many of these
wrongful convictions. The opening, uh, to sell door, and I
(01:03):
walked downstairs, and I actually walked down stairs to be outside.
It felt very strange to be, like I said, to
be walking without thrown shackles on my feet. I thought
it was a dream. But then again, it wasn't a dream.
This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction. Today's
(01:33):
guest is Harold House and that's particularly exciting to me
because not only does it mark the first time that
we've had an actual movie star TV star who also
was wrongfully convicted on the show, but Harold and I
have become friends over the last several months. So I'm
really excited to have you here. So Harold, welcome to
Wrongful Conviction. Thank you for having me. And like I
(01:55):
always say, I'm happy you're here, but I'm sorry you're
here before we start. Man, it's just really say how
much it means to have people like yourself that care,
you know. So I'm really grateful for this opportunity in
this platform to speak out about my situation. Yeah, and
this is the first time that you're speaking out publicly
about this. It should be my absolute first time ever
speaking out about anything in regarding to my case publicly.
(02:17):
I mean, you were more likely to win a damn
Oscar Emmy or something then you were to end up
in prison at the time that this all came down,
and talk about that, because your acting career was taking
off before this happened, right, I Mean, that's which is
why it must have been such a shock to so
many people. Everyone that knows you. And not only that,
but you're a highly educated guy, more so than myself
(02:38):
by far, and and you're a person of faith and
everything else. That doesn't mean that you couldn't have done
something wrong, but it makes it more It should have
been harder for a jury to believe. But anyway, we're
gonna get into that surreal But what to but talking
about that for a minute, So your career was taken off.
What were you doing professionally at the time. Our is
(03:00):
in a great place career wise. I felt like I had,
you know, kind of got to the point where my
career was taken off. You know how you say you
become an overnight success, But this was the culmination of
all the hard work. I was promoting my first lead
debut film, in Secrets. At the time, we had a
multiple city tour. I had just shot The Golden Globe
and the nominated show Atlanta, where I was guaranteed a
(03:22):
season's two series regular. We had just wrapped a Tupac movie,
I had played Dr Dre and that you know, a
ton of offers were coming in for various projects, film projects,
and it was a good time. Man. It was a
time where all the work was really starting to pay off.
I mean, you were living a dream that millions of
every day Americans have and so many people try. So
(03:43):
the facts I mean of having that rug pulled out
from under you, you had a long way to fall.
And well, I'm not gonna put words out. I'm gonna
let you tell this. I was accused of rape at
the time by my fifteen year old step daughter. Yes, right,
what people think when they hear that word, people are thinking, wait,
(04:05):
whoa what? But in this situation, you were set up.
It felt like it set up um to some extent.
At the time, Uh, me and my son mother was
going through kind of a mild separation because of disciplinary
issues I was having at the time with my stepdaughter. Um.
It was one incident prior to where I had to
kind of like discipline her for like cussing at me
(04:27):
and being you know, very you know, belligerent and stuff
like that. And so she went to her father's house
and even when the incident happened, I called him and
said she was cussing, being extremely you know, belligerent, volatile
and physical and stuff like that. And it's more a
comment like who you talking to while you've been disrespectful
type thing, and that's kind of where all of it
(04:48):
started to, where you know, he had at that time
went to the police and said I was beating her
and choking her and throwing her and all these you know,
crazy accusations. All this the physical conduct, me biting her
on her neck. And it was actually police report where
they took the young lady away from her father and
(05:08):
she admitted that, you know, she had been talking back
and that she had got in trouble and that she
had called her father to come and get her because
she knew she was gonna be on punishment, and that
the officer in the police report said, I took her
with from my father and told that Lion was against
the law and I was here to help and only
what I can do that if you be honest. And
she said, like I said, I knew I was gonna
be in trouble. And she's an act her has she
(05:29):
had any other further issues with More at the time.
So this is a report from the Gwynette County Police
Department says that the conclusion of the interview, I asked
the victim multiple times if there were any other problem
she may be having with More. Meaning you, Harold house More.
She never mentioned more touching her in an appropriate manner,
or that he had been biting her on the neck,
(05:49):
so that would directly contradict the allegation from the father,
who the reason why going to the setup he made
all these false accusations against me. I guess the separators.
I don't know what ultimate agenda was, but I guess
the force to separate or be back with my son's mom.
I don't know artists envy, but all of the charge
of the accusations of this physicality, the sexual stuff, all
(06:12):
started from her father. It's a very devastating accusation, and
we know that once those meals are set in motion,
it's sometimes hard to put him back on the you know,
in the car of the train, because people get caught
up in these lies and then they don't know when
to stop and it becomes a very real problem. I
(06:35):
think in my case, where it wasn't just a lie,
it was the fact that as a child, you wouldn't
want your father to appear as a liar. And maybe
she feared because he had a criminal history. You know,
he had been imprisoned multiple times. He was known for
doing any legal stuff so I don't know if she
felt because at the point they told her like, lion
is against the law. So now if you go back
(06:55):
and tell the truth, your father is a liar. And
at the same time, he was constantly and her with
financial stuff, you know, from persons. The cars. I mean,
I believe before it took us three and a half
years ago to trial, I think she had four new
vehicles before we went to trial, I mean cars that
was newer than mine. And I was on television and
your case is terrifying because it's something that could have
(07:17):
happened to anybody. And that's why I think it's so
important that you're here. Well, let's go back to that.
So my story real quick in the nutshell was that
you know, we had like an incident, the early incident
I told you about it, custing and talking back. That
was in February. So between February and all the way
to November, we barely had any interactutional when I will
come home and see my child, like we speak like hey,
(07:38):
we was always cords and respectful, but there was kind
of like something like hid intentions. So on Thanksgiving, her
Mom's like, hey, you should come here for Thanksgiving, not
you know, not be alone for Thanksgiving in California. I
was like, no, I'm cool. I'm gonna just stay. She's like, look,
come and spend time with your son. You know she's
doing good. Her attitude changed, her demeanors change. You know,
she's helping out with our sons, she's doing better at school,
(07:59):
blah blah blah blah. So I'm like, all right, boom,
I get on the plane flying in that day, on
the night that she made the accusation, it was a
night that I took her and her sisters to the movies.
So after returning from the movies, they remained downstairs, the
two girls next door that were twins that went to
the movies with her sister while my stepdaughter went with
her boyfriend. So I have to return to the house.
(08:19):
I left them all downstairs talking, having girl talk or
what have you, and I went upstairs and I actually
like dozed off in my son's room. Um. I played
golf that day, so I end up waking up around
about two o'clock in the morning because I still had
my golf clothes on from earlier. So at that time
I went to go use the bathroom that my son
shared with his sisters. Two in the morning, my stepdaughters
(08:40):
on the phone, and even at that point then I said, hey,
it's kind of late and just left it at that.
So I goes downstairs to get ready to get in
shower in the master bedroom. Come back upstairs. I'm getting
some of my clothes that was in my son's room because,
like I said, me and a mom had separated, and
so I was like sleep upstairs with my son in
his room. The way it set up, it's just like
this was her room bad from her sister room. You
(09:01):
can touch all everybody's rooms right here. You can touch everything.
And uh, when I came back upstairs, I heard you're
still on the phone. So I yelled in the hallway like, hey,
it's getting laid and need get off the phone. And
even in court, she said he was calling my name.
I just ignored him. So, uh, I walked in the
room calling her name. She's not answering. So I tapped
(09:22):
the bottom of leg because she's fully covered under the cover,
like fully covered. She had the blankets on it, right,
So touched on the top of the blanket kind of hey,
like you would do to make somebody up. So you
literally touched a blanket that was covered. It was and
it was like near the shin or the ankle. It wasn't.
She said, I like roll up on the inside of
her thigh. That was in a police report, and then
(09:45):
the court she says something totally different. So all of
it was constantly contradicting each other. So I'm like, you know,
calling her name and she doesn't respine, So tapp her look.
I said, hey, you know, I said her name. Take
a step toward her head of the bed where she
was at. She turns and she's on the phone, and
the phone says love like two hours twenty minutes. So
I'm like, hey, man, it's getting late. You need to
(10:06):
get off the phone. She's like, okay, walk out the room.
And then two when I walked out the room, I
text you, and I had the text to prove. She responded,
I said, your night ollar is getting late. You need
to get off the phone, and she responded okay. Next
to you know, the neighbor come knocking on the door.
She screams her name. She just runs out the house.
She never looks at me, never says nothing. So I
goes and tell her mom, like, hey, you need to
(10:27):
go check on her. She just you know, ran out
the house. She's on the phone with her boyfriend. I
think he dumped her, or she might be pregnant. I
told her mom's like she had been kind of being busy,
and you know, we knew that she was, you know,
maybe sneaking around doing a little sneaky stuff. So my
initial thought process was like, she pregnant, and so when
I want her, got her mom. Her mom goes next door.
(10:49):
I'm laying in the bed with my son. So like
fifteen minutes go by and I look outside. I see
like a whole lot of police cars. So I'm like, oh,
what's that? That That happened? So I get dressed, get my
son dressed, I go next door. I'm not gonna do it.
The police come, who are you gonna say? My name's house.
I'm coming to check on my family. They just came
over here. I'm trying to see what's going on, you know,
everything okay at this I don't know who was it.
(11:10):
The girl's next door, has something happened? Something happened anywhere?
They was like, oh, we need to talk to you.
So I was like talking to me for what I'm
trying to find answers, just like y'all. There's like, well,
can we talk to you next door? And I was like,
I don't what can you talk to me about? I
don't know. I'm trying to figure out what's going on.
And so they came to the house and they was
like looking around and he was like, what happened at night, sir?
And I was like, what happened when? What are you
talking about? And I felt like like, why are you
(11:31):
questioning me about what happened about tonight? Whatever? And so
eventually he ended up saying what she said, call the
police house to try to rape me. So at that
point out snap, I was like, yoh, man, go get her,
go get her mom. I'm not about to do this ship.
Go get all of them. Blah blah blah blah. Then
my son Mom comes walking in with a police or her.
I was like, what's going on with and she was
like I don't know, I don't know. I like to
(11:52):
see this is that ship? This is why I want
to come here, Like I don't have time for the
drama because when I separated, when we started separating February,
where I don't have time to be interacting. I got
too much going on to be interacting with you know,
your daughter and your ex husband and drama. You know
what I'm saying. So my whole reason for even going
back to California when we separated was to avoid the drama.
(12:14):
You see what I'm saying. So it's like, how do
I get back in this ship when I'm trying to
avoid drama? So anyway, long story to my initial charge.
They said I tried to rape her because I tapped
on her leg like where you can do a DNA test,
like where is any physical Then the thing that made
me frustrated was because you see this girl, you don't
see nothing physically done to her. You don't see nothing,
(12:35):
no physical mark, Like what in your mind makes you
think that I was just trying to rape? Heer, you
can look at her. And then another thing that and
I'm just wrap it up, was that she said I
tried to rape her. I wasn't charged with rape, so
it's like, how do how was I not charged rape?
So then and Georgia have this thing where if you
touch somebody with an attempt to arouse yourself, I'm like,
(12:56):
what how did I get aroused from touching her leg?
Where is in the where is the indication that you
was aroused? And they was like, oh, did he say
something to No, I didn't say nothing to you remotely
close to anything sexual aware. But in Georgia, that's why
I feel like it was a set up because you
didn't even charge me where she lied with. You put
in charge me with something you can get me convicted on.
(13:18):
There was never an investigation for rape. Any time a
minor makes any type of outcry some type of rape,
even if she recan it legally, you're supposed to report
that to the child authorities, which never happened. You're supposed
to do a DNA test, which never happens. So the
thing would be for you guys to do the test,
but they never did the test because at the time
she was sleeping with her eighteen year old boyfriend with
(13:40):
the statutory rape because she was four, she was fifteen,
but her boyfriend was eighteen at the time. Who's who
you seen his picture? So even if she would have
said this and took it back, who just said she's
not lying out of fear? And even during trial that's
what I was saying. There was disciplined and structure set
up at my house and you can see from this
photo these were the things that were allowed at her
father house. You know, where she's acknowledging doing drugs, she's drinking,
(14:05):
she's posting stuff about you know all, you know, various
things that indicate the freedoms that she would have in
her father's house as opposed to mine. And I believe
it was just rewarded behavior for continuing to support the
allegations in the in the lives that he made up.
And you can hear these papers shuffling around, but just
can't see it. But the pictures that he's sharing are
(14:28):
you know, a pictures of a young girl who is
um sort of almost looks like she's living the life
of a hip hop star for Instagram or something like that.
You know. So okay, so she was painting a picture.
She was able to live a life that she wanted
to live, a you know, sort of unstructured, flamboyant life,
so to speak, at the expense of standing with her
(14:51):
father versus a household of structure. And I think a
lot of time when you deal with the addition of
the stepfather or stepmother, but primarily the stepfather, as this
disconnect between him and the children and in our case,
that wasn't it. Like even when I was working here
in from NYC. Two my stepdaughters came up here with
their mom. We went on multiple family trips. I was
(15:12):
almost blindside it because I loved this child as my own.
And that was the hardest part for me to accept
to care about somebody and you know, look at her
as my own, especially like in my position. I had
heard so many times where you know, people recommend you
don't even date a woman with children. And for me,
I'm not the type of person to allow people to
dictate what I want to do in my life. UM,
I met their mom. We had great chemistry. I loved her.
(15:34):
You know, I still love it. We still have a
great relationship to this day. As you see, we talked
you know today. Yeah, so we have a great relationship.
My son mom was actually my co defendant. UM. Her sister,
who's her best friend. She also testified and said on
the record in my transcript, my sisters telling a lot.
No one believes that her stories kept changing, and it's
(15:56):
in the transcripts. Um, I understood very little about the law.
Fired too. They never read my mirandum rights. I was
falsely arrested at my house without probable cause the night
that she lied, you know, and they say, oh, we
wanted to take it out and speak to the investigators.
And I was like, well i'll drive. Oh no, we'll
drive you and you put me in handcuffs. I said,
(16:16):
I said, am under arrested. I don't talked to my attorney,
and they said, oh no, no, you're the arrest but
you had already arrested me, so that is an arrest
without probable cause. So then you violated my fourthromend because
you arrest me in my house without probable carts are warrant.
And then I went down to the police station and
it was crazy because my manager told me, he's like, house,
don't say nothing. I was like his name an like Anthony.
(16:38):
I didn't do nothing. Why would I, you know, I
said people, And I was like, black people shouldn't be
afraid of the law. You know, I'm paying taxes, a
shipload of taxes at this time. So I felt like, look,
these people are hired for public safety reassurance. And I
was confident, like and even speaking to the detective. And
so that night my manager said, your house, don't speak
to nobody, don't ever say no, and you hear all
(17:00):
the time I'll never talk to the police. But I'm like,
I'm not afraid of the police. I'm not afraid of
the circumstance, our situation. So I spoke, and I got
arrested that night. So I say that right now in
your part, I don't care how innocent you are. And
even after speaking, the lawyers more innocent people go to
prison because of speaking. Whatever you can they will use
against you the court. You can say I love God,
(17:22):
and they're gonna say you obsessed with God and God
made you do some crazy stuff. Prosecutor job is to
prosecute God made you go push that old lady off
on cliffland or wheelchair and throwing crutches down after you
know what I mean. So yeah, and that's something I
talked about in the podcast A lot is that if
you do get picked up under these type of circumstances,
don't say nothing. They say your name, and I want
a lawyer, I want a little bit. So you end
(17:43):
up going to trial. Here you go see one of
my documents, and I'll even let you just read the
first sentence. And that's an email that my trial attorney
sent to my family immediately following my trial. And if
you can just read the first sentence out out from
the email. Okay, so this is privileging confidential mail from
your turnel. Leave his name out of it unless you
(18:03):
tell me differently. And the email says, this was the
most horribly biased corrupt trial you can never imagine. I
mean you can just stopped there. That in itself, I
think speaks volume for the tone of my conviction. Uh,
it sounds like it was, Um, it was a pretty
big mess. I mean, but what was your experience of
(18:25):
that situation? I mean, here you are three and a
half years have gone by pressuming that you've gone on
with your career, hoping to put this in the review mirror,
and then the day comes and you go to trial,
and then what's the paint that picture? Well, up until,
like I said, at the time, I was promoting my
movie and I had like a lot of friends and
you know, relationships with you know, so many people, and
(18:46):
everybody was like, well, house, why don't you say something?
Or I honestly felt like the truth would prevail, And
so I was never like even family and friends that
were close to me, and it was like everybody, even
my father and mar Rick was like, how is it.
You're really calm, are you? You know, everybody's was wondering,
was I taking it too light? And I was like, no,
you can't make me. And this was always Jason has
(19:07):
always been my mentality. You can't make me guilty of
something I didn't do. And so in my mind going
to trials and there's no way twelve logical people, with
all the evidence and documentation will find me guilty. But
then now if you take away all of the evidence,
all of the character evidence, all of the character witnesses,
you take away everything clean the table now with an
(19:28):
emotional case. So now you have this young child in
the midst of you know, the Bill Cosby situation, and
why all this situation where you have these public figures
taking advantage of women, and this is like the almost
the pinnacling, you know, you know, emotionally, societally, we were
feeling a lot of compassion and sympathy towards any woman
(19:50):
who made this type of outcry, regardless of it was
true or not. It was just the tone of our
nation almost at that time. And so you're going to
a courtman when you take away every single thing, every
piece of paper, evidence, witness that can prove your innocence,
and now you have an emotional case, and why was
this stuff not allowed into evidence? The uh, the judge
(20:13):
and the prosecutor suppressed and I have the suppressions letter
here where they intentionally put it on record to remove
anything remotely that would do anything that would almost dampen
her character or show to me motive if you take
out the fact that she's allowed to drink, smoke, be
around her boyfriend, her boyfriend spending not even in the
(20:36):
record on court, the father committed perjury because they asked
them to. You allow your daughter to spend the night
and have company. So what I'm saying, when there's evidence
to prove your innocence and it's not allowed intentionally, and
you see that one of the motions to suppress it,
and it's another's two motions. I'm sitting here looking um
(20:56):
at this document from the Superior Court of Gwynette where
they in fact did exactly what you said, but UH
disallowed any testimony says, including but not limited the references
of alcohol and drugs, use by her skipping school, allegations
of domestic violence between her and I guess is that
her dad, who had who had a history of abuse
(21:17):
against her mom, and they even had used her story
on interrogation video in mine mysteriously that this didn't work.
So the jury never seen my side of that night
of your interrogation, never seen it. Yeah, it looks like
it was almost a faded complete I hate to say it.
You went through this trial, you knew that they had
disallowed a lot of the evidence that would have almost
(21:39):
certainly led to your acquittal. You still thought you were
gonna be acquitted, even though you hadn't been allowed to
present evidence that was so favorable to your defense, because
there were still things she said on stand that contradicted
the truth. And then I actually took the stand and
everything I said was genuine, it was the truth. I
recorrected a lot of things that she said, but they
(22:00):
didn't know the truth. So it still became an emotional thing.
So you were you were done. It was at that point,
really all you're doing is saying I didn't do it,
that's it, and the jury sitting there going well, and
then you know, and another thing that happened was the
prosecutor in his own statement, said, look, he has all this,
he has all he's a great man. He has a nonprofit,
(22:21):
he's doing this stuff for HBCU, he has this amazing career.
Everyone thinks he's perfect. And he kept like attacking my character.
At one point, he was even referencing my character on
Single Ladies, like what did he do for a living?
What kind of job did Terrence have on Single Ladies?
I'm like, what the Single Ladies have to do with
this case? So he's attacking your fictitious character. He attacked
anything fictitious that he can attack, he attacked. He's like,
(22:43):
what does Terrence Frank do for a living? I was like, man,
do you think Robert Donney Junior leaves Iron Man and
think he can fly? It's a profession. Nobody leaves set
and think they're that person. I couldn't say nothing, you know,
anything rebuttedly close to anything other than what they want
you to say. And they tell you they asked you question.
Is like that set you up to fail? I mean
that's all that's only thing they had that that's the
(23:03):
only thing they referenced to, like what I do on
Single Ladies and some other character what do he do
for a living? Like the two characters that were like
somewhat urban two or three. He's like, oh, he did
music videos and print jab. He just was just trying
to present it to the jury like I thought I
was above the law because I was successful, or because
I was you know, an entertainer, an actor. And his
(23:26):
closing statements, because you know it goes the prosecutor defends
and prosecutor when he said, he wants you all to
believe that he he's such a disciplinarian that you know,
the father just so lenient that she can go over
there and just do whatever, and she wants that she
can't do to his house, that she would make up accusations. Well,
he has all this going on, he said, but the
(23:47):
one thing that simply fails logic, where's the proof saying
that if what proof do you have that she can
do all these things that her father house versus your house? Right?
So when he was eve been saying, was the evidence
that he knew wouldn't be allowed in and he was
actually turning that into a negative. Yeah, that's uh pretty.
(24:08):
And when he said that, I was like, and I
still had hope, because again, when you're innocent, it just
never resonated me going to prison. I had done everything
at that point in my life to not go to prison.
I had everything I can, degrees, education, speaking out in organizations,
having my own nonprofit. When you know, even a young
lady who had survived cancer and all that stuff in Montgomery, Alabama,
(24:29):
who I took to the prom she came down to testify.
Like I had a courtroom for the people and witnesses.
All of their testimony was limited to how long do
you know him? Do you trust and tell the truth?
And does he have good community standards? That was it.
That was all they were allowed to say. They weren't
able to say nothing. Far as my character interaction with
the kids, I still never I'm talking about I'm not
(24:50):
saying absolutely never resonated. I guess I was naive. I
was in time promoting my movie. My kids were sitting
in the rental car. Wait wait, the kids are sitting
the rental car where outside the courthouse? My son mom
was in the car with him. Okay, yeah, so they
were sitting in the rental car and my son mom
was right next to They were like playing on the
iPads you know, brought to them, play in the car
waiting for me. They got the verdict. So I'm thinking
(25:12):
I'm about to walk in, not guilty, go celebrate. It's
been three and a half years. I'm thinking, I'm just
walking and walk back out. I had just brought like
lately in your season passes. My kids were sitting in
the car with swim trunks on, and I was like, hey,
I'll be right back. Let me go in here and
get this handled. This situation. I never came back out
for two years. So you went to prison and was
(25:43):
it a medium maximum security prison? Medium prison? And it
wasn't as bad as as it sounds as it was bad.
I went to a private prison and uh, down in
the South, when you go to certain prison, they say
you caught sweet um because it's not as volatile, it's
not as violent, but there was just as much violence.
There was just as much drug. Man. There's more drug
(26:05):
per quantity in prison than it is on the street.
Like there was no drug that you couldn't get access to,
whether it's weed, meth, cocaine, heroin, spice. So you know
that's the frustrating part. As somebody who pays taxes and
who cares, I'm looking at the process, like, wait, you're
setting all these people to prison and you're basically babysitting
grown me in because you're getting food, you get shelter,
(26:27):
they get you closed soap, you know, certain necessities. But
at the same time, there's nothing rehabilitative about the process.
They make you take some generic classes that if you
want to take, you can take. But I'm looking like,
how are you trying to help these individuals? And so
now it makes sense that probation here meet meals talking
about probation, because if there's no rehabilitation, then there's going
(26:47):
to be a need for probation because they're gonna lock
your ass back up. If you're trying to prepare somebody properly,
you don't worry about. It's like your kids. You don't say,
you know what, I'm gonna get my kids a foliar
probationary period for them to go to school to college.
You know, you prepared them up until eighteen to go
out and be productive. And that's not what the penal
system likes. So you get the private system where you
get thirty six to thirty eight thousand per Inmated inmates
(27:11):
have to get a calculated calculated but whatever it is,
it's a big number. Thirty eight thousand times hundred. What
do we got? Okay, you're gonna let me do the honors.
Here there's another first unwrong for conviction. Yeah, you never
use a calculator. Thirty eight thousand times twenty eight hundred equals.
(27:31):
So that's a hundred and six million, four hundred thousand dollars.
That's a lot of money. Yeah, that's a crazy amount
of money. I mean, but anyway, it's some third amount
of money. It's listen. The very idea that there's a
profit modem in locking people up is insane, right, you
know there's that. There's that horrible movie Kids for Cash.
(27:51):
Woulch documented this these cases in two thousand and five,
I think it was or seven, where these judges in
Pennsylvania were two judges were locking kids up for talking
back to the teacher, for jaywalking, for posting one girl
made a MySpace page which she said was a joke,
just making fun of her teacher, not threatening three months
(28:11):
in jail. They were being paid by the private prisons
to send kids to jail, a little thirteen year old,
fourteen year old to like a real prison too. This
was no I mean, And they were locking kids up
to I mean, the one kid that haunts me. His
name was Charlie. He Uh, A lot of them do.
But you know, he was since the six months for
possession of stolen property. He had a scooter that his
parents had given him for a president that they didn't
(28:32):
know was stolen and some other kid had you know,
they had bought it in a flea market, whatever the
hell they did, right, He had no idea. They had
no idea, and they locked him up for six months.
And then they keep extending it when you're in there,
because then the kid ends up smoking to join in
there because he, like you said, that's what they do.
And if you don't get in trouble in prison, they
call him manipulating system. Now and he this poor kid
was in for most of his childhood. Did they managed
(28:54):
to extend and extend, to keep penalizing it for different things.
And I think he was only out for a year
before his eighteenth birthday. I locked up in his thirteen.
And you know, it's just it's so tragic. It's just
so damn tragic. But and and he did touch on
something else I want to talk about, which is incredible too,
because I've been working for for over two decades, I've
been on the board of the Drug Policy Alliance, which
is working to you know, end the drug war, right,
(29:16):
I called the war against the War on drugs, right
and bring some sanity back to that all those crazy
policies that we have in this country. And um, I've
gotten to know Tony Papa very well. Marks there now
And Tony was sentenced to fifteen o life for the
first defense cocaine charge, non violent. He was eventually granted
clemency by the governor after twelve years. He painted his
(29:37):
way out of prison and then uh, he did a
self portrait that ended up in the Whitney. The guy's
incredible anyway, So Tony Papa and he says he now
does communications work for the Drug Policy Allnes And as
he says, if you can't control the flow of drugs
and a maximum security prison, how can you possibly hope
to control it in the streets? And it makes perfect sense.
But anyway, we don't want to make speaking about the
(29:58):
war on drugs. I believe it was nineties seven, now,
don't call me, but it was somewhere in that time
frame that I read you know what the maximum maunch
you can get in the United States Before the initial
War on drugs were set for any amount of drugs. No,
tell me, I don't even know a year. Wow. And
then eighty two, I believe Reagan initiated the war on drugs,
and eighty five all major Nixon started it. When Nick
(30:19):
Sixon started Yeah, yeah, yeah, every president has taken it.
But eighty five is when the inflag he started bombarding
inner cities Detroit, the Chicago's crack epidemic took over. No,
and Nixon's you know, his one of his chief aids
hauled them and I forgot what whether he was the
chief of staff or whatever. He is admitted later years.
And Nixon didn't want to war on drugs. He wanted
to war on black people and hippies, but he couldn't
(30:40):
call it that. And at the time there was only
two percent of American public identified drugs as a problem.
He had to create a false crisis, which is what
he did, and he declared this war on drugs. And
even then, the police departments didn't want to arrest people
for drugs, so they created this new incentive where they
would give the police departments extradinaries even if they met
(31:01):
quota of drug arrest because they didn't want to do it.
You know, that's what's crazy. Back then, I think, you know,
you're looking at the situation where police officers were going
into the to the law, like I think a vast
majority of them do, saying I want to protect people.
I want to I grew up thinking that maybe I
want to be a police officer, you know what I mean.
You see the uniform, you respect it. Right, It's somehow
(31:23):
other got so twisted where and it's the government's fall
by providing reverse incentives for persecuting regular people. Now you
have these home invasion rays where they're kicking in the
door and and you know, and people are getting shot
and wounded because they're looking for some drugs and sometimes
they go to the wrong house. I mean, it was
that horrible case down South. It might have even been
(31:43):
Georgia where they threw in the flash band grenade and
it landed in the baby's crib and the baby has
not had thirty five operations and everything else. I mean,
it's it's madness, right, It's just looking for drugs which
are going to be legal eventually. I mean, now you
know weed is on the way, but we still have
people serving crazy amounts of time in prison. We noticed
this must have administered drugs are just as harmful of
(32:04):
not more harmful than the none legalized drugs. But they
give it to your quantity because they control the quantity,
because they can chose them output, they can control the money.
It's all money, man, Yeah, it's all money. I mean,
let's money. I just posted on my Instagram, which by
the way, is at It's Jason Flat for those of
you who don't follow me. But I posted on my
Instagram today, you know, because of this manifold thing. I mean,
he got sentenced to Syria, what his white privilege, Paul
(32:25):
Mana for forty seven months for you know, so many
crimes you can't even count them over such an extended
period of time. And then my friend Bernard Noble, but
since the thirteen years and four months for possession of
two joints possession what the hell? I mean, my heads exploding? Um.
But and he was a truck driver forty seven years old,
seven kids. You know, he had two prior arrests for
(32:46):
simple possession twentysomething years earlier. Clean all this time, let's
get to the to the reversal because or the or
the ultimate emotion for new freedom. Yeah. Um, so how
did you actually managed to get yourself out of this
miserable predicament? That's what I want to know. I had
a motion for new trial. I was cohersed, pretty much
(33:08):
blackmailed into taking what they call it alpha plea. I
have the documents, if you see right here. I have
on record multiple times where they try to offer me
these please and I'm like, I'm not taking the plea
for somebody to do. I'm not taking the place I
probably had on record four different times where they say,
if you don't take this plea is not coming back
on the record. So how does this pleae keep reappearing
(33:29):
if someone declines the plea? Where do you see so
many times on record where it resurfaces. And so at
the beginning of my most for a new trial they
asked me to take a plea. My trial lawyer got
up there and talk about the discrepancies and the things
that violated my due process. And so when the most
for new trial is granted is based off of something
that violated your due process, whether it's ineffective sense of console,
(33:51):
whether it's prosecutorial, whether it's judicial for some legal reason
that violated your due process. Which is your fourteenth Amendment UM,
which is very important. People understand. You gotta understand, you know,
And I'm gonna say this is to be real quick.
Martin Luther King's death or his fight, the advocacy for
civil rights is superseded just to write the vote. It's
for people, individuals to understand as a citizen, you are
(34:14):
giving these rights to be an American citizen to where
you don't have to fight for your rights if you
understand what your rights are. See, we're fighting for something
that's allocate, that's for us. When you're born in the
American citystem you're giving these rights. So it's kind of
like you know you're going home and fighting for your
bid and it's already your bid. That's your bid. You
just have to know it's your bid. So you know,
I say this, especially African Americans, know your rights, No
(34:35):
your amendments. I didn't personally care about minds before prison.
When I went back and I learned my first, my
fourth how important. The fourth was the fifth against something incrimination,
the sixth Amendment for legal representation, the seventh ade against
cruel and harsh punishment, four team do process. So this
was my most for new trial was open on the
grounds that I didn't get a fair trial, and at
(34:55):
some point doing that process, I was basically pressured either
do this or sit in prison two more years. And
at that point I already been there a year and
a half. So what they are for me was, uh
my lawyer told me at the time that I would
get uh time serves, this thing called first offenders, and
I would get out of my record to be expunged.
(35:17):
And you know, I didn't even want to take And
I had a call like a removal of court and
speak to my mom and my son's mom. They were
like all crying, like please just get out your kids mission.
I'm like, mom, I'm not taking the plea for somebody
to do. And it's like it's an alpha plea which
allows you to maintain your innocence, but it says you
didn't want to go to court. I never mind, won't
go on to trial. I know I have enough proof
(35:38):
to prove my innocence. That was never a case for me.
It was never an issue by me not going to trial.
So you ultimately accepted the outpham play yes, and they
told me I'll be released. Then I wasn't released in.
I went back to prison for like eight more months.
I've heard that story before, it too, yeah, they said.
And then my lawyer was like, oh, yeah, as soon
as you get there, they're gonna process you out and
it might take up to thirty days, mostly for new trial.
(36:00):
With November seventeenth, he said, you may be home before Thanksgiving,
no later than Christmas. I didn't get out to July,
so I said another eight months, and that was July
of So you've been home now for nine months. It
seems like you hit the ground running, though I didn't.
I thought I did too until I realized. Come in
(36:22):
here and help me realize. I didn't like my probation.
I still have a few years left probation in Atlanta,
and that's what I'm fighting for right now, my complete
exoneration and um expungement of my record. UM. But I
didn't remember. I woke up, probably raised around about Christmas.
(36:42):
I woke up just crying, man, just tears because the
psychological effect that this stuff has on you, it's just
mind about you wake up at one point and it
blew my mind. At one point, I thought about going back,
and nobody in my family. This is my first time
even and at one point I thought about going back
back to prison. That's the psychological effect that has on you.
(37:07):
It's kind of like, I don't even know if you
watch like Game of Thrones, like a couple of seasons
Beyond Love Joy where Oh Boy had broke them to
a dog and even if you open they said, once
you break a dog, you can open the cage and
the dog won't leave out. And that's what prison do,
and that's why they had these probational areas because psychologically,
the impact that it has on you, it breaks you.
(37:28):
And that's the whole purpose of it is to break you.
And that's why I had my book Never Broken, because
despite this tragic, unfortunate, mundane, crazy, malicious to me situation,
I feel like there's people that's experienced worse than I have.
I know that there are, and I feel like, you know,
I have an obligation now with my situation and circumstance,
(37:50):
to be a voice for a prison reform for the
people that's maliciously prosecuted, falsely and prosecuted. And understand that,
you know, just as many innocent people go to prison
as guilty people get off. But it's not a justification
what we have to do is pay more attention to
what you know, our our judicial system and the people
(38:11):
we elect. So I encourage people to be aware of
who your judges are, who you're all, your state representatives are,
who are your local representatives are, And that's where the
power of voting and being aware of what's going on
plays this part. We can get out here in kumbaya
and you know, rally all we want, but we need
to put people in office and positions that care about
(38:32):
the people. You know, one of the things you're doing
this show, if you're listening, whether you live in Georgia
or Alaska, it doesn't really matter. Everybody at some point
(38:53):
gets a jury duty notice and when you serve on
a jury, which I encourage people to do, especially people
that are listening to show, who are woke right because
they're listening to this show. So you know, if you
do get off for jury duty, it is super annoying,
Like nobody wants to go. You know, you gotta miss
out on work and things and whateverybody's busy, but go
(39:15):
because go and and then stay walke because when you're there,
recognize that there's stuff going on that you don't know
and you can't see. We have to become more educated
just in general about the judicial process. The jury concept,
the way it was founded was you know, back, I'm
leaving the earlything like that. It was early and uh,
(39:36):
they were just sentencing guys just like guilty, guilty, and
you got one guys, Wait a minute, you guys don't
even know me, like, give me a chance to show
you my innocent. Let my peers judge who I am.
And so then that's how the jury situation came about.
So it's important for you to understand that the whole
purpose of the jury duty in the jury selection is
for you to recognize this individual as your peer. Is
(39:56):
there somebody you want in your community and somebody you trust?
The whole purpose the judicial system is for public reassurance
to make us feel safe, is to know that our
government is working adamantly to secure our safety, whether it's
off shores or on shores of you know, of American soil.
So it's very important for people to understand, like you said,
how I know it's boring. I know you don't want
to be there. You can't just go in there and say, well,
(40:18):
I don't want to be here. I gotta go to
work tomorrow because this is somebody's life. And then there's
that you know, famous quote that it's better than a
hundred guilty men should go free than that one instance
should suffer. I'm pretty sure that was Benjamin Franklin, or
the legendary Supreme Court justice Learning hand, who said that
our justice system is haunted by the ghost of the
(40:38):
innocent man convicted. You know that that quote gives me chills,
and yet it happens all day, every day and twice
on Sunday. And um, you know, there's that saying that
everyone you meet is fighting a battle you know nothing about,
so be kind, right, And I know so many of
the different people that I interviewed on this show been
(41:00):
through these horrendous situations. I mean, some of them in
prison for thirty forty years for things they didn't do.
And they all have different ways of explaining how they
found this extra gear, this this strength, this uh, this
grace I call it right where they're able to get
up every day and and and and project a positive
(41:22):
influence onto the world. And you certainly seem like that
guy as well. Um, you know, and I know I've
spoken to you about this before. So I wanted to
ask you and then and then I have one more
question after this, but are you bitter? No, sir. And
And it's interesting because so many people that I talked
(41:43):
to civilians about this issue all the time. People listen
to the show, other people they say, but I don't understand,
how can how can anybody who's been through what? Because
that's not the answer. Frustration, hate, anger is not the answer.
I love to judge, I love my stepdoor, I love
her father, I love DA to prosecutor. I even love
the jury. If I had to do one thing, I
(42:03):
would want to sit down like this and just ask
them why. And I would want them to just hang out.
Just spend one day with me, Spend an hour with me,
Watch me interact with my kids, Watch me go to
a facility or a place and you know car, Watch
and see a young lady with her daughters. And watch
how I tell my sons to go over there and
vacuum that car. I'll go pump that lady's gas. I'll
(42:24):
go grab that lady's groceries. Watch how I'm in a restaurant.
I see lady with kids, and I'll pay for her food.
You know, it's so many things that I do that
the people who know me immediately will go, man, you're different.
It's remarkable, and there's so much to be learned for
people who are going through their day to day struggles
and may find uh, you know, aggravations and daily life.
(42:46):
But once everything is taken from you, especially abruptly, and
then you're broken down to the bare minimum. That's why
they say some homeless people are the happiest, they have
no worries. And so, just not to cut you off,
but to answer that question, we said, how to each
and every want to arrive at this same place because
you've been stripped of everything that the pressures of society
that man has. So now when you just have to
(43:09):
bear you you just have your connection with God or
whatever you believe in. And so the strength and your
your relationship with a higher call and the higher being
is indicated by how you conduct yourself and how you respond.
I know that God has all my steps number and
whatever they meant for evil, God meant for good. I
wouldn't have been here two years ago. I wouldn't even
(43:30):
thought about prison reform. Two years ago. I would probably
be probably with my kids on some island or somewhere
kicking it. But my point is this, I've always been aware,
but this gave me another fight, you know what I mean.
I'm huge on youth advocacy, and that was the hardest
part about this allegation against a child. I have a history,
improof and I'll show your documents even if we get
off the air where I'm speaking to young women, young
(43:52):
men empowering them. So that was the hardest part because
my degree is in education from Alabama State University. So
when you take away my core, what is the love
for advocacy for youth and empowering young me and in
women in low economic environments. That's what hurt. And in
fact that they took me from my kids, Like the
hardest part was walking away and knowing that my kids
(44:13):
were outside, you know, certainly meeting you when I did
you know, like I said, it's do you still seem
like that guy who would be more likely to be
on stage excepting an award than then you were to
end up in prison? And I mean, I guess for me.
And in addition, I think one of the hardest and
the craziest situation just being in there, Jayson, was the
fact that, like I would look up and I will
(44:34):
see myself on television, you know, some of the other
guys who kind of be looking like you know, is
that that looks just like you know? And when they
finally figured it out, it was crazy. That's totally surreal.
So you're in prison looking at the TV seeing yourself,
watching your previous life literally flashing in front of your eyes. Initially,
(44:59):
when when I first saw myself, Atlanta was on and
they watched it because it's Atlanta based show and I'm
in Georgia. You know, a lot of guys have been
locked up for so long. They couldn't affiliate me with
the character. And then most of them are so negative
almost that they don't they wouldn't believe that someone they
watched on television would be locked up with them. So
that was the first thing. And then when I got
(45:19):
to the facility, I was at down in coffee with
this ring came on and one of the officers walked
in was like, hey, g G building wants you. So
I look up and all the dudes and the win
they're like, yo go because they called me coach. They
actually called me coach in prison because I used to
help a lot of guys like basketball and boxing, and
you know, with that illegal work because I started doing
(45:41):
a lot of legal research and stuff like that. So
they all started calling me coach, but they were like, yo, coach.
And then after that was so much love man, Like
I never had any incidents where gangs or none of
that stuff. Man, you know, the top dogs, I was
always cool with, you know what I mean. So I
don't know if it's gonna get it on, but shout
out to you know, everybody that's right now that's steal
in cars. Ready to keep your head up man, and
(46:02):
your time and the sun is coming man. But yeah,
it's be crazy, y. I see myself and multiple television shows,
my movies was airing, and a lot of them ironically
was happy to be almost locked up with somebody that
was successful. And it was crazy because I got so
much love and support. So it was they were all
rooting for me to get out. I never hit my story.
(46:24):
You know, a lot of time you go to prison,
they tell you, man, you're going on some sex or
they're gonna do blah blah blah blah blah. But the
guys all knew me as a man first, and everyone
was frustrated. A lot of inmates was pissed, like, man, man,
you gotta get out. You gotta tell your case, you
gotta tell your story. I was got so much support
and encouragement from the guys in there because they met me,
and as a man, they can tell that you know,
(46:45):
I was innocent and so and I mean it was
just crazy. Man. That's just out of body, trippy, crazy
experience that I hope nobody else has to go through.
But man, what a what a life. Thank you to
all the support I got, because I know at one
point distribution company hesitation about my roles like in Safe
for instance, Tupat. But shout out to Benny Boom and
(47:06):
Hunting for supporting me and ride with me by keeping
my parts. Shout out to the producers and Donald and
all the guys with Atlanta for keeping my parts. Um.
Shout out to you know truss A Megamond for continue
to push our projects secrets. Shout out to you know,
Robbie Reid and you know Tracy and all the people
that looked out from BT who initially you know, as
(47:27):
soon as I got out, we're trying to put me
in projects and working and put me in projects to
regain you know, my my stature in the game. So
thank you all for the support and everyone else and
uh I got some real big projects on the way.
This has been an extraordinary interview. I appreciate you coming
in and sharing your story, UM, and everything that you're
(47:48):
doing to try to make a difference. I know that
this will ultimately work itself out. UM. I hope it will, UM,
and then everything will get cleared up. UH. Then I
know the best is yet to come for you. So
you know, I wish you well. UM. We have a
traditional wrong for conviction, which is that at the end
of the show, my favorite part, I think everybody's favorite
(48:12):
part the producers, UM, is that it's going to hear people.
I get to uh, I get to actually, just like
I said, thank you for being here, and then turn
over for the last brief closing thoughts for anything you
want to say about anything. UH. I just love man, UM.
(48:32):
Like I said, an event yesterday, well earlier this week
with Andrew, one of the owners at the Rear Rooster,
and they were doing something for outreach. Was this an
urban program? Are for low income families? There are so
many organizations, there's so many groups there's so many entities
are organizations that's trying to put it together. I just
(48:53):
in closing, what I'm trying to say is we have
to find a way to unify this. You know what
I mean, because there's a lot of people doing things
all across the nation, the world, and um, I think
we just gotta find a way to unify it. We
need to get past racial bearers, uh stigmas and stuff
like that. We need to try to stop pointing the
finger I said. I don't have no maliciousness toward anybody.
I know there's a bigger purpose. I just want people
(49:15):
to become aware. Don't just grow. Evolved and growth us
as a part of the human condition. That's something that
naturally we all do. We grow, it's aging. But evolved
is when you as a person, you see stuff, you
see the bigger picture, you know what I mean, Like
a caterpillar and I feel like a lot of people
just caterpillar alone. But the purpose is to turn into
that butterfly. I know it's a slow journey. It feels
(49:36):
like the process of being a caterpillar, and it's you know,
whether you're trying to get to this goal, this desk
to need this journey. Just know that that process is
a part of your journey. But the evolution into the
butterfly is when you grow as a person and you
see that the most important thing that we have that
God has given us is each other. Everything that was
created other other than the earth, was made by man,
whether it's the I phone, whether it's a car, whether
(49:58):
it's bologna sandwich. So God gives us each other to
live abundantly happy with one another, but we take it
for granted, you know, be more collectively aware of one
another and just try to love. When the people say
that ship and they'd be like, oh, yeah, I love
each other. Sounds great, but that's what it's about, man.
So I love you. I appreciate you having me. Um.
It feels good to kind of get this initially off
(50:20):
my chest because I've been holding it out for over
two and a half going on three years, if not
actually longer than that, because it took three and a
half years ago to trial. So like this is my
first time speaking out publicly. UM. I'm grateful that we
had the opportunity to meet, you know, thank you Effie
out in Los Angeles and they signed. They're also doing
phenomenal work at the Mayor's office, and it's a lot
(50:42):
of prison reform organizations. At the end of the day,
what prison reform means is for us to have a
society where our judicial system works fairly for all of us.
The domino effect that prison reform helps us with healthcare
by taking money out of these prisons and put them
to the healthcare sector, by taking them out of these
and put them to the educational sector. And that's what's
(51:02):
most important. So the reason why prison reform is important
because we have to be aware where our tax dollars
and where our money is being allocated, you know what
I'm saying. So it's deeper than that. It's a domino effect,
and the domino effect is love, and that's educating each other.
Understand this. You are your own individual. Don't let no
no entity or individuals stop you from doing what you love.
(51:24):
It's a wrap. Thank you, uh, Harold House. More Harold
House being here and sharing your story. Um, and thank
you everyone for listening to Ron for Conviction. We'll see
you next week. Don't forget to give us a fantastic
(51:50):
review wherever you get your podcasts. It really helps. And
I'm a proud donor to the NSIS Project, and I
really hope you'll join me in supporting this very important
cause and helping to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to
Innocence Project dot org to learn how to donate and
get involved. I'd like to thank our production team, Connor
Hall and Kevin Awardis. The music on the show is
(52:12):
by three time OSCAR nominate composer Jay Ralph. Be sure
to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on
Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flam
is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts in association
with Signal Company Number one
This call is from a correction facility, and it's subject
to monitoring and recording exactly a hundred years. That's manly.
(00:21):
I'm a kid. I didn't do anything, you know, and uh,
you know that was that was real painful, man, no,
because my life was discarded as if you know, like
I was a piece of trash or something, you know,
a hundred years and I had dreams and I wanted
to do things. I wouldn't commit me crimes. You know.
That was a very good young man. That is what
(00:43):
happened in so many cases. The cops have a hunch
because they're so smart at the scene, they have a hunch,
and once they act on that hunch, they sort of
developed tunnel vision and they take off marching in the
wrong direction. And that happens in so many of these
wrongful convictions. The opening, uh, to sell door, and I
(01:03):
walked downstairs, and I actually walked down stairs to be outside.
It felt very strange to be, like I said, to
be walking without thrown shackles on my feet. I thought
it was a dream. But then again, it wasn't a dream.
This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction. Today's
(01:33):
guest is Harold House and that's particularly exciting to me
because not only does it mark the first time that
we've had an actual movie star TV star who also
was wrongfully convicted on the show, but Harold and I
have become friends over the last several months. So I'm
really excited to have you here. So Harold, welcome to
Wrongful Conviction. Thank you for having me. And like I
(01:55):
always say, I'm happy you're here, but I'm sorry you're
here before we start. Man, it's just really say how
much it means to have people like yourself that care,
you know. So I'm really grateful for this opportunity in
this platform to speak out about my situation. Yeah, and
this is the first time that you're speaking out publicly
about this. It should be my absolute first time ever
speaking out about anything in regarding to my case publicly.
(02:17):
I mean, you were more likely to win a damn
Oscar Emmy or something then you were to end up
in prison at the time that this all came down,
and talk about that, because your acting career was taking
off before this happened, right, I Mean, that's which is
why it must have been such a shock to so
many people. Everyone that knows you. And not only that,
but you're a highly educated guy, more so than myself
(02:38):
by far, and and you're a person of faith and
everything else. That doesn't mean that you couldn't have done
something wrong, but it makes it more It should have
been harder for a jury to believe. But anyway, we're
gonna get into that surreal But what to but talking
about that for a minute, So your career was taken off.
What were you doing professionally at the time. Our is
(03:00):
in a great place career wise. I felt like I had,
you know, kind of got to the point where my
career was taken off. You know how you say you
become an overnight success, But this was the culmination of
all the hard work. I was promoting my first lead
debut film, in Secrets. At the time, we had a
multiple city tour. I had just shot The Golden Globe
and the nominated show Atlanta, where I was guaranteed a
(03:22):
season's two series regular. We had just wrapped a Tupac movie,
I had played Dr Dre and that you know, a
ton of offers were coming in for various projects, film projects,
and it was a good time. Man. It was a
time where all the work was really starting to pay off.
I mean, you were living a dream that millions of
every day Americans have and so many people try. So
(03:43):
the facts I mean of having that rug pulled out
from under you, you had a long way to fall.
And well, I'm not gonna put words out. I'm gonna
let you tell this. I was accused of rape at
the time by my fifteen year old step daughter. Yes, right,
what people think when they hear that word, people are thinking, wait,
(04:05):
whoa what? But in this situation, you were set up.
It felt like it set up um to some extent.
At the time, Uh, me and my son mother was
going through kind of a mild separation because of disciplinary
issues I was having at the time with my stepdaughter. Um.
It was one incident prior to where I had to
kind of like discipline her for like cussing at me
(04:27):
and being you know, very you know, belligerent and stuff
like that. And so she went to her father's house
and even when the incident happened, I called him and
said she was cussing, being extremely you know, belligerent, volatile
and physical and stuff like that. And it's more a
comment like who you talking to while you've been disrespectful
type thing, and that's kind of where all of it
(04:48):
started to, where you know, he had at that time
went to the police and said I was beating her
and choking her and throwing her and all these you know,
crazy accusations. All this the physical conduct, me biting her
on her neck. And it was actually police report where
they took the young lady away from her father and
(05:08):
she admitted that, you know, she had been talking back
and that she had got in trouble and that she
had called her father to come and get her because
she knew she was gonna be on punishment, and that
the officer in the police report said, I took her
with from my father and told that Lion was against
the law and I was here to help and only
what I can do that if you be honest. And
she said, like I said, I knew I was gonna
be in trouble. And she's an act her has she
(05:29):
had any other further issues with More at the time.
So this is a report from the Gwynette County Police
Department says that the conclusion of the interview, I asked
the victim multiple times if there were any other problem
she may be having with More. Meaning you, Harold house More.
She never mentioned more touching her in an appropriate manner,
or that he had been biting her on the neck,
(05:49):
so that would directly contradict the allegation from the father,
who the reason why going to the setup he made
all these false accusations against me. I guess the separators.
I don't know what ultimate agenda was, but I guess
the force to separate or be back with my son's mom.
I don't know artists envy, but all of the charge
of the accusations of this physicality, the sexual stuff, all
(06:12):
started from her father. It's a very devastating accusation, and
we know that once those meals are set in motion,
it's sometimes hard to put him back on the you know,
in the car of the train, because people get caught
up in these lies and then they don't know when
to stop and it becomes a very real problem. I
(06:35):
think in my case, where it wasn't just a lie,
it was the fact that as a child, you wouldn't
want your father to appear as a liar. And maybe
she feared because he had a criminal history. You know,
he had been imprisoned multiple times. He was known for
doing any legal stuff so I don't know if she
felt because at the point they told her like, lion
is against the law. So now if you go back
(06:55):
and tell the truth, your father is a liar. And
at the same time, he was constantly and her with
financial stuff, you know, from persons. The cars. I mean,
I believe before it took us three and a half
years ago to trial, I think she had four new
vehicles before we went to trial, I mean cars that
was newer than mine. And I was on television and
your case is terrifying because it's something that could have
(07:17):
happened to anybody. And that's why I think it's so
important that you're here. Well, let's go back to that.
So my story real quick in the nutshell was that
you know, we had like an incident, the early incident
I told you about it, custing and talking back. That
was in February. So between February and all the way
to November, we barely had any interactutional when I will
come home and see my child, like we speak like hey,
(07:38):
we was always cords and respectful, but there was kind
of like something like hid intentions. So on Thanksgiving, her
Mom's like, hey, you should come here for Thanksgiving, not
you know, not be alone for Thanksgiving in California. I
was like, no, I'm cool. I'm gonna just stay. She's like, look,
come and spend time with your son. You know she's
doing good. Her attitude changed, her demeanors change. You know,
she's helping out with our sons, she's doing better at school,
(07:59):
blah blah blah blah. So I'm like, all right, boom,
I get on the plane flying in that day, on
the night that she made the accusation, it was a
night that I took her and her sisters to the movies.
So after returning from the movies, they remained downstairs, the
two girls next door that were twins that went to
the movies with her sister while my stepdaughter went with
her boyfriend. So I have to return to the house.
(08:19):
I left them all downstairs talking, having girl talk or
what have you, and I went upstairs and I actually
like dozed off in my son's room. Um. I played
golf that day, so I end up waking up around
about two o'clock in the morning because I still had
my golf clothes on from earlier. So at that time
I went to go use the bathroom that my son
shared with his sisters. Two in the morning, my stepdaughters
(08:40):
on the phone, and even at that point then I said, hey,
it's kind of late and just left it at that.
So I goes downstairs to get ready to get in
shower in the master bedroom. Come back upstairs. I'm getting
some of my clothes that was in my son's room because,
like I said, me and a mom had separated, and
so I was like sleep upstairs with my son in
his room. The way it set up, it's just like
this was her room bad from her sister room. You
(09:01):
can touch all everybody's rooms right here. You can touch everything.
And uh, when I came back upstairs, I heard you're
still on the phone. So I yelled in the hallway like, hey,
it's getting laid and need get off the phone. And
even in court, she said he was calling my name.
I just ignored him. So, uh, I walked in the
room calling her name. She's not answering. So I tapped
(09:22):
the bottom of leg because she's fully covered under the cover,
like fully covered. She had the blankets on it, right,
So touched on the top of the blanket kind of hey,
like you would do to make somebody up. So you
literally touched a blanket that was covered. It was and
it was like near the shin or the ankle. It wasn't.
She said, I like roll up on the inside of
her thigh. That was in a police report, and then
(09:45):
the court she says something totally different. So all of
it was constantly contradicting each other. So I'm like, you know,
calling her name and she doesn't respine, So tapp her look.
I said, hey, you know, I said her name. Take
a step toward her head of the bed where she
was at. She turns and she's on the phone, and
the phone says love like two hours twenty minutes. So
I'm like, hey, man, it's getting late. You need to
(10:06):
get off the phone. She's like, okay, walk out the room.
And then two when I walked out the room, I
text you, and I had the text to prove. She responded,
I said, your night ollar is getting late. You need
to get off the phone, and she responded okay. Next
to you know, the neighbor come knocking on the door.
She screams her name. She just runs out the house.
She never looks at me, never says nothing. So I
goes and tell her mom, like, hey, you need to
(10:27):
go check on her. She just you know, ran out
the house. She's on the phone with her boyfriend. I
think he dumped her, or she might be pregnant. I
told her mom's like she had been kind of being busy,
and you know, we knew that she was, you know,
maybe sneaking around doing a little sneaky stuff. So my
initial thought process was like, she pregnant, and so when
I want her, got her mom. Her mom goes next door.
(10:49):
I'm laying in the bed with my son. So like
fifteen minutes go by and I look outside. I see
like a whole lot of police cars. So I'm like, oh,
what's that? That That happened? So I get dressed, get my
son dressed, I go next door. I'm not gonna do it.
The police come, who are you gonna say? My name's house.
I'm coming to check on my family. They just came
over here. I'm trying to see what's going on, you know,
everything okay at this I don't know who was it.
(11:10):
The girl's next door, has something happened? Something happened anywhere?
They was like, oh, we need to talk to you.
So I was like talking to me for what I'm
trying to find answers, just like y'all. There's like, well,
can we talk to you next door? And I was like,
I don't what can you talk to me about? I
don't know. I'm trying to figure out what's going on.
And so they came to the house and they was
like looking around and he was like, what happened at night, sir?
And I was like, what happened when? What are you
talking about? And I felt like like, why are you
(11:31):
questioning me about what happened about tonight? Whatever? And so
eventually he ended up saying what she said, call the
police house to try to rape me. So at that
point out snap, I was like, yoh, man, go get her,
go get her mom. I'm not about to do this ship.
Go get all of them. Blah blah blah blah. Then
my son Mom comes walking in with a police or her.
I was like, what's going on with and she was
like I don't know, I don't know. I like to
(11:52):
see this is that ship? This is why I want
to come here, Like I don't have time for the
drama because when I separated, when we started separating February,
where I don't have time to be interacting. I got
too much going on to be interacting with you know,
your daughter and your ex husband and drama. You know
what I'm saying. So my whole reason for even going
back to California when we separated was to avoid the drama.
(12:14):
You see what I'm saying. So it's like, how do
I get back in this ship when I'm trying to
avoid drama? So anyway, long story to my initial charge.
They said I tried to rape her because I tapped
on her leg like where you can do a DNA test,
like where is any physical Then the thing that made
me frustrated was because you see this girl, you don't
see nothing physically done to her. You don't see nothing,
(12:35):
no physical mark, Like what in your mind makes you
think that I was just trying to rape? Heer, you
can look at her. And then another thing that and
I'm just wrap it up, was that she said I
tried to rape her. I wasn't charged with rape, so
it's like, how do how was I not charged rape?
So then and Georgia have this thing where if you
touch somebody with an attempt to arouse yourself, I'm like,
(12:56):
what how did I get aroused from touching her leg?
Where is in the where is the indication that you
was aroused? And they was like, oh, did he say
something to No, I didn't say nothing to you remotely
close to anything sexual aware. But in Georgia, that's why
I feel like it was a set up because you
didn't even charge me where she lied with. You put
in charge me with something you can get me convicted on.
(13:18):
There was never an investigation for rape. Any time a
minor makes any type of outcry some type of rape,
even if she recan it legally, you're supposed to report
that to the child authorities, which never happened. You're supposed
to do a DNA test, which never happens. So the
thing would be for you guys to do the test,
but they never did the test because at the time
she was sleeping with her eighteen year old boyfriend with
(13:40):
the statutory rape because she was four, she was fifteen,
but her boyfriend was eighteen at the time. Who's who
you seen his picture? So even if she would have
said this and took it back, who just said she's
not lying out of fear? And even during trial that's
what I was saying. There was disciplined and structure set
up at my house and you can see from this
photo these were the things that were allowed at her
father house. You know, where she's acknowledging doing drugs, she's drinking,
(14:05):
she's posting stuff about you know all, you know, various
things that indicate the freedoms that she would have in
her father's house as opposed to mine. And I believe
it was just rewarded behavior for continuing to support the
allegations in the in the lives that he made up.
And you can hear these papers shuffling around, but just
can't see it. But the pictures that he's sharing are
(14:28):
you know, a pictures of a young girl who is
um sort of almost looks like she's living the life
of a hip hop star for Instagram or something like that.
You know. So okay, so she was painting a picture.
She was able to live a life that she wanted
to live, a you know, sort of unstructured, flamboyant life,
so to speak, at the expense of standing with her
(14:51):
father versus a household of structure. And I think a
lot of time when you deal with the addition of
the stepfather or stepmother, but primarily the stepfather, as this
disconnect between him and the children and in our case,
that wasn't it. Like even when I was working here
in from NYC. Two my stepdaughters came up here with
their mom. We went on multiple family trips. I was
(15:12):
almost blindside it because I loved this child as my own.
And that was the hardest part for me to accept
to care about somebody and you know, look at her
as my own, especially like in my position. I had
heard so many times where you know, people recommend you
don't even date a woman with children. And for me,
I'm not the type of person to allow people to
dictate what I want to do in my life. UM,
I met their mom. We had great chemistry. I loved her.
(15:34):
You know, I still love it. We still have a
great relationship to this day. As you see, we talked
you know today. Yeah, so we have a great relationship.
My son mom was actually my co defendant. UM. Her sister,
who's her best friend. She also testified and said on
the record in my transcript, my sisters telling a lot.
No one believes that her stories kept changing, and it's
(15:56):
in the transcripts. Um, I understood very little about the law.
Fired too. They never read my mirandum rights. I was
falsely arrested at my house without probable cause the night
that she lied, you know, and they say, oh, we
wanted to take it out and speak to the investigators.
And I was like, well i'll drive. Oh no, we'll
drive you and you put me in handcuffs. I said,
(16:16):
I said, am under arrested. I don't talked to my attorney,
and they said, oh no, no, you're the arrest but
you had already arrested me, so that is an arrest
without probable cause. So then you violated my fourthromend because
you arrest me in my house without probable carts are warrant.
And then I went down to the police station and
it was crazy because my manager told me, he's like, house,
don't say nothing. I was like his name an like Anthony.
(16:38):
I didn't do nothing. Why would I, you know, I
said people, And I was like, black people shouldn't be
afraid of the law. You know, I'm paying taxes, a
shipload of taxes at this time. So I felt like, look,
these people are hired for public safety reassurance. And I
was confident, like and even speaking to the detective. And
so that night my manager said, your house, don't speak
to nobody, don't ever say no, and you hear all
(17:00):
the time I'll never talk to the police. But I'm like,
I'm not afraid of the police. I'm not afraid of
the circumstance, our situation. So I spoke, and I got
arrested that night. So I say that right now in
your part, I don't care how innocent you are. And
even after speaking, the lawyers more innocent people go to
prison because of speaking. Whatever you can they will use
against you the court. You can say I love God,
(17:22):
and they're gonna say you obsessed with God and God
made you do some crazy stuff. Prosecutor job is to
prosecute God made you go push that old lady off
on cliffland or wheelchair and throwing crutches down after you
know what I mean. So yeah, and that's something I
talked about in the podcast A lot is that if
you do get picked up under these type of circumstances,
don't say nothing. They say your name, and I want
a lawyer, I want a little bit. So you end
(17:43):
up going to trial. Here you go see one of
my documents, and I'll even let you just read the
first sentence. And that's an email that my trial attorney
sent to my family immediately following my trial. And if
you can just read the first sentence out out from
the email. Okay, so this is privileging confidential mail from
your turnel. Leave his name out of it unless you
(18:03):
tell me differently. And the email says, this was the
most horribly biased corrupt trial you can never imagine. I
mean you can just stopped there. That in itself, I
think speaks volume for the tone of my conviction. Uh,
it sounds like it was, Um, it was a pretty
big mess. I mean, but what was your experience of
(18:25):
that situation? I mean, here you are three and a
half years have gone by pressuming that you've gone on
with your career, hoping to put this in the review mirror,
and then the day comes and you go to trial,
and then what's the paint that picture? Well, up until,
like I said, at the time, I was promoting my
movie and I had like a lot of friends and
you know, relationships with you know, so many people, and
(18:46):
everybody was like, well, house, why don't you say something?
Or I honestly felt like the truth would prevail, And
so I was never like even family and friends that
were close to me, and it was like everybody, even
my father and mar Rick was like, how is it.
You're really calm, are you? You know, everybody's was wondering,
was I taking it too light? And I was like, no,
you can't make me. And this was always Jason has
(19:07):
always been my mentality. You can't make me guilty of
something I didn't do. And so in my mind going
to trials and there's no way twelve logical people, with
all the evidence and documentation will find me guilty. But
then now if you take away all of the evidence,
all of the character evidence, all of the character witnesses,
you take away everything clean the table now with an
(19:28):
emotional case. So now you have this young child in
the midst of you know, the Bill Cosby situation, and
why all this situation where you have these public figures
taking advantage of women, and this is like the almost
the pinnacling, you know, you know, emotionally, societally, we were
feeling a lot of compassion and sympathy towards any woman
(19:50):
who made this type of outcry, regardless of it was
true or not. It was just the tone of our
nation almost at that time. And so you're going to
a courtman when you take away every single thing, every
piece of paper, evidence, witness that can prove your innocence,
and now you have an emotional case, and why was
this stuff not allowed into evidence? The uh, the judge
(20:13):
and the prosecutor suppressed and I have the suppressions letter
here where they intentionally put it on record to remove
anything remotely that would do anything that would almost dampen
her character or show to me motive if you take
out the fact that she's allowed to drink, smoke, be
around her boyfriend, her boyfriend spending not even in the
(20:36):
record on court, the father committed perjury because they asked
them to. You allow your daughter to spend the night
and have company. So what I'm saying, when there's evidence
to prove your innocence and it's not allowed intentionally, and
you see that one of the motions to suppress it,
and it's another's two motions. I'm sitting here looking um
(20:56):
at this document from the Superior Court of Gwynette where
they in fact did exactly what you said, but UH
disallowed any testimony says, including but not limited the references
of alcohol and drugs, use by her skipping school, allegations
of domestic violence between her and I guess is that
her dad, who had who had a history of abuse
(21:17):
against her mom, and they even had used her story
on interrogation video in mine mysteriously that this didn't work.
So the jury never seen my side of that night
of your interrogation, never seen it. Yeah, it looks like
it was almost a faded complete I hate to say it.
You went through this trial, you knew that they had
disallowed a lot of the evidence that would have almost
(21:39):
certainly led to your acquittal. You still thought you were
gonna be acquitted, even though you hadn't been allowed to
present evidence that was so favorable to your defense, because
there were still things she said on stand that contradicted
the truth. And then I actually took the stand and
everything I said was genuine, it was the truth. I
recorrected a lot of things that she said, but they
(22:00):
didn't know the truth. So it still became an emotional thing.
So you were you were done. It was at that point,
really all you're doing is saying I didn't do it,
that's it, and the jury sitting there going well, and
then you know, and another thing that happened was the
prosecutor in his own statement, said, look, he has all this,
he has all he's a great man. He has a nonprofit,
(22:21):
he's doing this stuff for HBCU, he has this amazing career.
Everyone thinks he's perfect. And he kept like attacking my character.
At one point, he was even referencing my character on
Single Ladies, like what did he do for a living?
What kind of job did Terrence have on Single Ladies?
I'm like, what the Single Ladies have to do with
this case? So he's attacking your fictitious character. He attacked
anything fictitious that he can attack, he attacked. He's like,
(22:43):
what does Terrence Frank do for a living? I was like, man,
do you think Robert Donney Junior leaves Iron Man and
think he can fly? It's a profession. Nobody leaves set
and think they're that person. I couldn't say nothing, you know,
anything rebuttedly close to anything other than what they want
you to say. And they tell you they asked you question.
Is like that set you up to fail? I mean
that's all that's only thing they had that that's the
(23:03):
only thing they referenced to, like what I do on
Single Ladies and some other character what do he do
for a living? Like the two characters that were like
somewhat urban two or three. He's like, oh, he did
music videos and print jab. He just was just trying
to present it to the jury like I thought I
was above the law because I was successful, or because
I was you know, an entertainer, an actor. And his
(23:26):
closing statements, because you know it goes the prosecutor defends
and prosecutor when he said, he wants you all to
believe that he he's such a disciplinarian that you know,
the father just so lenient that she can go over
there and just do whatever, and she wants that she
can't do to his house, that she would make up accusations. Well,
he has all this going on, he said, but the
(23:47):
one thing that simply fails logic, where's the proof saying
that if what proof do you have that she can
do all these things that her father house versus your house? Right?
So when he was eve been saying, was the evidence
that he knew wouldn't be allowed in and he was
actually turning that into a negative. Yeah, that's uh pretty.
(24:08):
And when he said that, I was like, and I
still had hope, because again, when you're innocent, it just
never resonated me going to prison. I had done everything
at that point in my life to not go to prison.
I had everything I can, degrees, education, speaking out in organizations,
having my own nonprofit. When you know, even a young
lady who had survived cancer and all that stuff in Montgomery, Alabama,
(24:29):
who I took to the prom she came down to testify.
Like I had a courtroom for the people and witnesses.
All of their testimony was limited to how long do
you know him? Do you trust and tell the truth?
And does he have good community standards? That was it.
That was all they were allowed to say. They weren't
able to say nothing. Far as my character interaction with
the kids, I still never I'm talking about I'm not
(24:50):
saying absolutely never resonated. I guess I was naive. I
was in time promoting my movie. My kids were sitting
in the rental car. Wait wait, the kids are sitting
the rental car where outside the courthouse? My son mom
was in the car with him. Okay, yeah, so they
were sitting in the rental car and my son mom
was right next to They were like playing on the
iPads you know, brought to them, play in the car
waiting for me. They got the verdict. So I'm thinking
(25:12):
I'm about to walk in, not guilty, go celebrate. It's
been three and a half years. I'm thinking, I'm just
walking and walk back out. I had just brought like
lately in your season passes. My kids were sitting in
the car with swim trunks on, and I was like, hey,
I'll be right back. Let me go in here and
get this handled. This situation. I never came back out
for two years. So you went to prison and was
(25:43):
it a medium maximum security prison? Medium prison? And it
wasn't as bad as as it sounds as it was bad.
I went to a private prison and uh, down in
the South, when you go to certain prison, they say
you caught sweet um because it's not as volatile, it's
not as violent, but there was just as much violence.
There was just as much drug. Man. There's more drug
(26:05):
per quantity in prison than it is on the street.
Like there was no drug that you couldn't get access to,
whether it's weed, meth, cocaine, heroin, spice. So you know
that's the frustrating part. As somebody who pays taxes and
who cares, I'm looking at the process, like, wait, you're
setting all these people to prison and you're basically babysitting
grown me in because you're getting food, you get shelter,
(26:27):
they get you closed soap, you know, certain necessities. But
at the same time, there's nothing rehabilitative about the process.
They make you take some generic classes that if you
want to take, you can take. But I'm looking like,
how are you trying to help these individuals? And so
now it makes sense that probation here meet meals talking
about probation, because if there's no rehabilitation, then there's going
(26:47):
to be a need for probation because they're gonna lock
your ass back up. If you're trying to prepare somebody properly,
you don't worry about. It's like your kids. You don't say,
you know what, I'm gonna get my kids a foliar
probationary period for them to go to school to college.
You know, you prepared them up until eighteen to go
out and be productive. And that's not what the penal
system likes. So you get the private system where you
get thirty six to thirty eight thousand per Inmated inmates
(27:11):
have to get a calculated calculated but whatever it is,
it's a big number. Thirty eight thousand times hundred. What
do we got? Okay, you're gonna let me do the honors.
Here there's another first unwrong for conviction. Yeah, you never
use a calculator. Thirty eight thousand times twenty eight hundred equals.
(27:31):
So that's a hundred and six million, four hundred thousand dollars.
That's a lot of money. Yeah, that's a crazy amount
of money. I mean, but anyway, it's some third amount
of money. It's listen. The very idea that there's a
profit modem in locking people up is insane, right, you
know there's that. There's that horrible movie Kids for Cash.
(27:51):
Woulch documented this these cases in two thousand and five,
I think it was or seven, where these judges in
Pennsylvania were two judges were locking kids up for talking
back to the teacher, for jaywalking, for posting one girl
made a MySpace page which she said was a joke,
just making fun of her teacher, not threatening three months
(28:11):
in jail. They were being paid by the private prisons
to send kids to jail, a little thirteen year old,
fourteen year old to like a real prison too. This
was no I mean, And they were locking kids up
to I mean, the one kid that haunts me. His
name was Charlie. He Uh, A lot of them do.
But you know, he was since the six months for
possession of stolen property. He had a scooter that his
parents had given him for a president that they didn't
(28:32):
know was stolen and some other kid had you know,
they had bought it in a flea market, whatever the
hell they did, right, He had no idea. They had
no idea, and they locked him up for six months.
And then they keep extending it when you're in there,
because then the kid ends up smoking to join in
there because he, like you said, that's what they do.
And if you don't get in trouble in prison, they
call him manipulating system. Now and he this poor kid
was in for most of his childhood. Did they managed
(28:54):
to extend and extend, to keep penalizing it for different things.
And I think he was only out for a year
before his eighteenth birthday. I locked up in his thirteen.
And you know, it's just it's so tragic. It's just
so damn tragic. But and and he did touch on
something else I want to talk about, which is incredible too,
because I've been working for for over two decades, I've
been on the board of the Drug Policy Alliance, which
is working to you know, end the drug war, right,
(29:16):
I called the war against the War on drugs, right
and bring some sanity back to that all those crazy
policies that we have in this country. And um, I've
gotten to know Tony Papa very well. Marks there now
And Tony was sentenced to fifteen o life for the
first defense cocaine charge, non violent. He was eventually granted
clemency by the governor after twelve years. He painted his
(29:37):
way out of prison and then uh, he did a
self portrait that ended up in the Whitney. The guy's
incredible anyway, So Tony Papa and he says he now
does communications work for the Drug Policy Allnes And as
he says, if you can't control the flow of drugs
and a maximum security prison, how can you possibly hope
to control it in the streets? And it makes perfect sense.
But anyway, we don't want to make speaking about the
(29:58):
war on drugs. I believe it was nineties seven, now,
don't call me, but it was somewhere in that time
frame that I read you know what the maximum maunch
you can get in the United States Before the initial
War on drugs were set for any amount of drugs. No,
tell me, I don't even know a year. Wow. And
then eighty two, I believe Reagan initiated the war on drugs,
and eighty five all major Nixon started it. When Nick
(30:19):
Sixon started Yeah, yeah, yeah, every president has taken it.
But eighty five is when the inflag he started bombarding
inner cities Detroit, the Chicago's crack epidemic took over. No,
and Nixon's you know, his one of his chief aids
hauled them and I forgot what whether he was the
chief of staff or whatever. He is admitted later years.
And Nixon didn't want to war on drugs. He wanted
to war on black people and hippies, but he couldn't
(30:40):
call it that. And at the time there was only
two percent of American public identified drugs as a problem.
He had to create a false crisis, which is what
he did, and he declared this war on drugs. And
even then, the police departments didn't want to arrest people
for drugs, so they created this new incentive where they
would give the police departments extradinaries even if they met
(31:01):
quota of drug arrest because they didn't want to do it.
You know, that's what's crazy. Back then, I think, you know,
you're looking at the situation where police officers were going
into the to the law, like I think a vast
majority of them do, saying I want to protect people.
I want to I grew up thinking that maybe I
want to be a police officer, you know what I mean.
You see the uniform, you respect it. Right, It's somehow
(31:23):
other got so twisted where and it's the government's fall
by providing reverse incentives for persecuting regular people. Now you
have these home invasion rays where they're kicking in the
door and and you know, and people are getting shot
and wounded because they're looking for some drugs and sometimes
they go to the wrong house. I mean, it was
that horrible case down South. It might have even been
(31:43):
Georgia where they threw in the flash band grenade and
it landed in the baby's crib and the baby has
not had thirty five operations and everything else. I mean,
it's it's madness, right, It's just looking for drugs which
are going to be legal eventually. I mean, now you
know weed is on the way, but we still have
people serving crazy amounts of time in prison. We noticed
this must have administered drugs are just as harmful of
(32:04):
not more harmful than the none legalized drugs. But they
give it to your quantity because they control the quantity,
because they can chose them output, they can control the money.
It's all money, man, Yeah, it's all money. I mean,
let's money. I just posted on my Instagram, which by
the way, is at It's Jason Flat for those of
you who don't follow me. But I posted on my
Instagram today, you know, because of this manifold thing. I mean,
he got sentenced to Syria, what his white privilege, Paul
(32:25):
Mana for forty seven months for you know, so many
crimes you can't even count them over such an extended
period of time. And then my friend Bernard Noble, but
since the thirteen years and four months for possession of
two joints possession what the hell? I mean, my heads exploding? Um.
But and he was a truck driver forty seven years old,
seven kids. You know, he had two prior arrests for
(32:46):
simple possession twentysomething years earlier. Clean all this time, let's
get to the to the reversal because or the or
the ultimate emotion for new freedom. Yeah. Um, so how
did you actually managed to get yourself out of this
miserable predicament? That's what I want to know. I had
a motion for new trial. I was cohersed, pretty much
(33:08):
blackmailed into taking what they call it alpha plea. I
have the documents, if you see right here. I have
on record multiple times where they try to offer me
these please and I'm like, I'm not taking the plea
for somebody to do. I'm not taking the place I
probably had on record four different times where they say,
if you don't take this plea is not coming back
on the record. So how does this pleae keep reappearing
(33:29):
if someone declines the plea? Where do you see so
many times on record where it resurfaces. And so at
the beginning of my most for a new trial they
asked me to take a plea. My trial lawyer got
up there and talk about the discrepancies and the things
that violated my due process. And so when the most
for new trial is granted is based off of something
that violated your due process, whether it's ineffective sense of console,
(33:51):
whether it's prosecutorial, whether it's judicial for some legal reason
that violated your due process. Which is your fourteenth Amendment UM,
which is very important. People understand. You gotta understand, you know,
And I'm gonna say this is to be real quick.
Martin Luther King's death or his fight, the advocacy for
civil rights is superseded just to write the vote. It's
for people, individuals to understand as a citizen, you are
(34:14):
giving these rights to be an American citizen to where
you don't have to fight for your rights if you
understand what your rights are. See, we're fighting for something
that's allocate, that's for us. When you're born in the
American citystem you're giving these rights. So it's kind of
like you know you're going home and fighting for your
bid and it's already your bid. That's your bid. You
just have to know it's your bid. So you know,
I say this, especially African Americans, know your rights, No
(34:35):
your amendments. I didn't personally care about minds before prison.
When I went back and I learned my first, my
fourth how important. The fourth was the fifth against something incrimination,
the sixth Amendment for legal representation, the seventh ade against
cruel and harsh punishment, four team do process. So this
was my most for new trial was open on the
grounds that I didn't get a fair trial, and at
(34:55):
some point doing that process, I was basically pressured either
do this or sit in prison two more years. And
at that point I already been there a year and
a half. So what they are for me was, uh
my lawyer told me at the time that I would
get uh time serves, this thing called first offenders, and
I would get out of my record to be expunged.
(35:17):
And you know, I didn't even want to take And
I had a call like a removal of court and
speak to my mom and my son's mom. They were
like all crying, like please just get out your kids mission.
I'm like, mom, I'm not taking the plea for somebody
to do. And it's like it's an alpha plea which
allows you to maintain your innocence, but it says you
didn't want to go to court. I never mind, won't
go on to trial. I know I have enough proof
(35:38):
to prove my innocence. That was never a case for me.
It was never an issue by me not going to trial.
So you ultimately accepted the outpham play yes, and they
told me I'll be released. Then I wasn't released in.
I went back to prison for like eight more months.
I've heard that story before, it too, yeah, they said.
And then my lawyer was like, oh, yeah, as soon
as you get there, they're gonna process you out and
it might take up to thirty days, mostly for new trial.
(36:00):
With November seventeenth, he said, you may be home before Thanksgiving,
no later than Christmas. I didn't get out to July,
so I said another eight months, and that was July
of So you've been home now for nine months. It
seems like you hit the ground running, though I didn't.
I thought I did too until I realized. Come in
(36:22):
here and help me realize. I didn't like my probation.
I still have a few years left probation in Atlanta,
and that's what I'm fighting for right now, my complete
exoneration and um expungement of my record. UM. But I
didn't remember. I woke up, probably raised around about Christmas.
(36:42):
I woke up just crying, man, just tears because the
psychological effect that this stuff has on you, it's just
mind about you wake up at one point and it
blew my mind. At one point, I thought about going back,
and nobody in my family. This is my first time
even and at one point I thought about going back
back to prison. That's the psychological effect that has on you.
(37:07):
It's kind of like, I don't even know if you
watch like Game of Thrones, like a couple of seasons
Beyond Love Joy where Oh Boy had broke them to
a dog and even if you open they said, once
you break a dog, you can open the cage and
the dog won't leave out. And that's what prison do,
and that's why they had these probational areas because psychologically,
the impact that it has on you, it breaks you.
(37:28):
And that's the whole purpose of it is to break you.
And that's why I had my book Never Broken, because
despite this tragic, unfortunate, mundane, crazy, malicious to me situation,
I feel like there's people that's experienced worse than I have.
I know that there are, and I feel like, you know,
I have an obligation now with my situation and circumstance,
(37:50):
to be a voice for a prison reform for the
people that's maliciously prosecuted, falsely and prosecuted. And understand that,
you know, just as many innocent people go to prison
as guilty people get off. But it's not a justification
what we have to do is pay more attention to
what you know, our our judicial system and the people
(38:11):
we elect. So I encourage people to be aware of
who your judges are, who you're all, your state representatives are,
who are your local representatives are, And that's where the
power of voting and being aware of what's going on
plays this part. We can get out here in kumbaya
and you know, rally all we want, but we need
to put people in office and positions that care about
(38:32):
the people. You know, one of the things you're doing
this show, if you're listening, whether you live in Georgia
or Alaska, it doesn't really matter. Everybody at some point
(38:53):
gets a jury duty notice and when you serve on
a jury, which I encourage people to do, especially people
that are listening to show, who are woke right because
they're listening to this show. So you know, if you
do get off for jury duty, it is super annoying,
Like nobody wants to go. You know, you gotta miss
out on work and things and whateverybody's busy, but go
(39:15):
because go and and then stay walke because when you're there,
recognize that there's stuff going on that you don't know
and you can't see. We have to become more educated
just in general about the judicial process. The jury concept,
the way it was founded was you know, back, I'm
leaving the earlything like that. It was early and uh,
(39:36):
they were just sentencing guys just like guilty, guilty, and
you got one guys, Wait a minute, you guys don't
even know me, like, give me a chance to show
you my innocent. Let my peers judge who I am.
And so then that's how the jury situation came about.
So it's important for you to understand that the whole
purpose of the jury duty in the jury selection is
for you to recognize this individual as your peer. Is
(39:56):
there somebody you want in your community and somebody you trust?
The whole purpose the judicial system is for public reassurance
to make us feel safe, is to know that our
government is working adamantly to secure our safety, whether it's
off shores or on shores of you know, of American soil.
So it's very important for people to understand, like you said,
how I know it's boring. I know you don't want
to be there. You can't just go in there and say, well,
(40:18):
I don't want to be here. I gotta go to
work tomorrow because this is somebody's life. And then there's
that you know, famous quote that it's better than a
hundred guilty men should go free than that one instance
should suffer. I'm pretty sure that was Benjamin Franklin, or
the legendary Supreme Court justice Learning hand, who said that
our justice system is haunted by the ghost of the
(40:38):
innocent man convicted. You know that that quote gives me chills,
and yet it happens all day, every day and twice
on Sunday. And um, you know, there's that saying that
everyone you meet is fighting a battle you know nothing about,
so be kind, right, And I know so many of
the different people that I interviewed on this show been
(41:00):
through these horrendous situations. I mean, some of them in
prison for thirty forty years for things they didn't do.
And they all have different ways of explaining how they
found this extra gear, this this strength, this uh, this
grace I call it right where they're able to get
up every day and and and and project a positive
(41:22):
influence onto the world. And you certainly seem like that
guy as well. Um, you know, and I know I've
spoken to you about this before. So I wanted to
ask you and then and then I have one more
question after this, but are you bitter? No, sir. And
And it's interesting because so many people that I talked
(41:43):
to civilians about this issue all the time. People listen
to the show, other people they say, but I don't understand,
how can how can anybody who's been through what? Because
that's not the answer. Frustration, hate, anger is not the answer.
I love to judge, I love my stepdoor, I love
her father, I love DA to prosecutor. I even love
the jury. If I had to do one thing, I
(42:03):
would want to sit down like this and just ask
them why. And I would want them to just hang out.
Just spend one day with me, Spend an hour with me,
Watch me interact with my kids, Watch me go to
a facility or a place and you know car, Watch
and see a young lady with her daughters. And watch
how I tell my sons to go over there and
vacuum that car. I'll go pump that lady's gas. I'll
(42:24):
go grab that lady's groceries. Watch how I'm in a restaurant.
I see lady with kids, and I'll pay for her food.
You know, it's so many things that I do that
the people who know me immediately will go, man, you're different.
It's remarkable, and there's so much to be learned for
people who are going through their day to day struggles
and may find uh, you know, aggravations and daily life.
(42:46):
But once everything is taken from you, especially abruptly, and
then you're broken down to the bare minimum. That's why
they say some homeless people are the happiest, they have
no worries. And so, just not to cut you off,
but to answer that question, we said, how to each
and every want to arrive at this same place because
you've been stripped of everything that the pressures of society
that man has. So now when you just have to
(43:09):
bear you you just have your connection with God or
whatever you believe in. And so the strength and your
your relationship with a higher call and the higher being
is indicated by how you conduct yourself and how you respond.
I know that God has all my steps number and
whatever they meant for evil, God meant for good. I
wouldn't have been here two years ago. I wouldn't even
(43:30):
thought about prison reform. Two years ago. I would probably
be probably with my kids on some island or somewhere
kicking it. But my point is this, I've always been aware,
but this gave me another fight, you know what I mean.
I'm huge on youth advocacy, and that was the hardest
part about this allegation against a child. I have a history,
improof and I'll show your documents even if we get
off the air where I'm speaking to young women, young
(43:52):
men empowering them. So that was the hardest part because
my degree is in education from Alabama State University. So
when you take away my core, what is the love
for advocacy for youth and empowering young me and in
women in low economic environments. That's what hurt. And in
fact that they took me from my kids, Like the
hardest part was walking away and knowing that my kids
(44:13):
were outside, you know, certainly meeting you when I did
you know, like I said, it's do you still seem
like that guy who would be more likely to be
on stage excepting an award than then you were to
end up in prison? And I mean, I guess for me.
And in addition, I think one of the hardest and
the craziest situation just being in there, Jayson, was the
fact that, like I would look up and I will
(44:34):
see myself on television, you know, some of the other
guys who kind of be looking like you know, is
that that looks just like you know? And when they
finally figured it out, it was crazy. That's totally surreal.
So you're in prison looking at the TV seeing yourself,
watching your previous life literally flashing in front of your eyes. Initially,
(44:59):
when when I first saw myself, Atlanta was on and
they watched it because it's Atlanta based show and I'm
in Georgia. You know, a lot of guys have been
locked up for so long. They couldn't affiliate me with
the character. And then most of them are so negative
almost that they don't they wouldn't believe that someone they
watched on television would be locked up with them. So
that was the first thing. And then when I got
(45:19):
to the facility, I was at down in coffee with
this ring came on and one of the officers walked
in was like, hey, g G building wants you. So
I look up and all the dudes and the win
they're like, yo go because they called me coach. They
actually called me coach in prison because I used to
help a lot of guys like basketball and boxing, and
you know, with that illegal work because I started doing
(45:41):
a lot of legal research and stuff like that. So
they all started calling me coach, but they were like, yo, coach.
And then after that was so much love man, Like
I never had any incidents where gangs or none of
that stuff. Man, you know, the top dogs, I was
always cool with, you know what I mean. So I
don't know if it's gonna get it on, but shout
out to you know, everybody that's right now that's steal
in cars. Ready to keep your head up man, and
(46:02):
your time and the sun is coming man. But yeah,
it's be crazy, y. I see myself and multiple television shows,
my movies was airing, and a lot of them ironically
was happy to be almost locked up with somebody that
was successful. And it was crazy because I got so
much love and support. So it was they were all
rooting for me to get out. I never hit my story.
(46:24):
You know, a lot of time you go to prison,
they tell you, man, you're going on some sex or
they're gonna do blah blah blah blah blah. But the
guys all knew me as a man first, and everyone
was frustrated. A lot of inmates was pissed, like, man, man,
you gotta get out. You gotta tell your case, you
gotta tell your story. I was got so much support
and encouragement from the guys in there because they met me,
and as a man, they can tell that you know,
(46:45):
I was innocent and so and I mean it was
just crazy. Man. That's just out of body, trippy, crazy
experience that I hope nobody else has to go through.
But man, what a what a life. Thank you to
all the support I got, because I know at one
point distribution company hesitation about my roles like in Safe
for instance, Tupat. But shout out to Benny Boom and
(47:06):
Hunting for supporting me and ride with me by keeping
my parts. Shout out to the producers and Donald and
all the guys with Atlanta for keeping my parts. Um.
Shout out to you know truss A Megamond for continue
to push our projects secrets. Shout out to you know,
Robbie Reid and you know Tracy and all the people
that looked out from BT who initially you know, as
(47:27):
soon as I got out, we're trying to put me
in projects and working and put me in projects to
regain you know, my my stature in the game. So
thank you all for the support and everyone else and
uh I got some real big projects on the way.
This has been an extraordinary interview. I appreciate you coming
in and sharing your story, UM, and everything that you're
(47:48):
doing to try to make a difference. I know that
this will ultimately work itself out. UM. I hope it will, UM,
and then everything will get cleared up. UH. Then I
know the best is yet to come for you. So
you know, I wish you well. UM. We have a
traditional wrong for conviction, which is that at the end
of the show, my favorite part, I think everybody's favorite
(48:12):
part the producers, UM, is that it's going to hear people.
I get to uh, I get to actually, just like
I said, thank you for being here, and then turn
over for the last brief closing thoughts for anything you
want to say about anything. UH. I just love man, UM.
(48:32):
Like I said, an event yesterday, well earlier this week
with Andrew, one of the owners at the Rear Rooster,
and they were doing something for outreach. Was this an
urban program? Are for low income families? There are so
many organizations, there's so many groups there's so many entities
are organizations that's trying to put it together. I just
(48:53):
in closing, what I'm trying to say is we have
to find a way to unify this. You know what
I mean, because there's a lot of people doing things
all across the nation, the world, and um, I think
we just gotta find a way to unify it. We
need to get past racial bearers, uh stigmas and stuff
like that. We need to try to stop pointing the
finger I said. I don't have no maliciousness toward anybody.
I know there's a bigger purpose. I just want people
(49:15):
to become aware. Don't just grow. Evolved and growth us
as a part of the human condition. That's something that
naturally we all do. We grow, it's aging. But evolved
is when you as a person, you see stuff, you
see the bigger picture, you know what I mean, Like
a caterpillar and I feel like a lot of people
just caterpillar alone. But the purpose is to turn into
that butterfly. I know it's a slow journey. It feels
(49:36):
like the process of being a caterpillar, and it's you know,
whether you're trying to get to this goal, this desk
to need this journey. Just know that that process is
a part of your journey. But the evolution into the
butterfly is when you grow as a person and you
see that the most important thing that we have that
God has given us is each other. Everything that was
created other other than the earth, was made by man,
whether it's the I phone, whether it's a car, whether
(49:58):
it's bologna sandwich. So God gives us each other to
live abundantly happy with one another, but we take it
for granted, you know, be more collectively aware of one
another and just try to love. When the people say
that ship and they'd be like, oh, yeah, I love
each other. Sounds great, but that's what it's about, man.
So I love you. I appreciate you having me. Um.
It feels good to kind of get this initially off
(50:20):
my chest because I've been holding it out for over
two and a half going on three years, if not
actually longer than that, because it took three and a
half years ago to trial. So like this is my
first time speaking out publicly. UM. I'm grateful that we
had the opportunity to meet, you know, thank you Effie
out in Los Angeles and they signed. They're also doing
phenomenal work at the Mayor's office, and it's a lot
(50:42):
of prison reform organizations. At the end of the day,
what prison reform means is for us to have a
society where our judicial system works fairly for all of us.
The domino effect that prison reform helps us with healthcare
by taking money out of these prisons and put them
to the healthcare sector, by taking them out of these
and put them to the educational sector. And that's what's
(51:02):
most important. So the reason why prison reform is important
because we have to be aware where our tax dollars
and where our money is being allocated, you know what
I'm saying. So it's deeper than that. It's a domino effect,
and the domino effect is love, and that's educating each other.
Understand this. You are your own individual. Don't let no
no entity or individuals stop you from doing what you love.
(51:24):
It's a wrap. Thank you, uh, Harold House. More Harold
House being here and sharing your story. Um, and thank
you everyone for listening to Ron for Conviction. We'll see
you next week. Don't forget to give us a fantastic
(51:50):
review wherever you get your podcasts. It really helps. And
I'm a proud donor to the NSIS Project, and I
really hope you'll join me in supporting this very important
cause and helping to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to
Innocence Project dot org to learn how to donate and
get involved. I'd like to thank our production team, Connor
Hall and Kevin Awardis. The music on the show is
(52:12):
by three time OSCAR nominate composer Jay Ralph. Be sure
to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on
Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flam
is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts in association
with Signal Company Number one
Hosts And Creators
Lauren Bright Pacheco
Maggie Freleng
Jason Flom
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