October 2, 2019 • 41 mins
This special edition of Wrongful Conviction features Jason Flom’s exclusive interview with Brendan Dassey from behind bars—the only interview ever conducted with Brendan. The case against Brendan, and his uncle Steven Avery, is the subject of Netflix’s hit series Making a Murderer. In 2006, 16 year old Wisconsin special education student Brendan Dassey gave a videotaped confession to the murder and sexual assault of a young woman named Teresa Halbach. That confession – extracted from Brendan after four interrogations over a 48 hour period – has been widely recognized as false and coerced due to Brendan’s inability to describe the crime accurately without being told the "right" answers by his interrogators. In fact, Brendan recanted his confession immediately, and no evidence connects him to Halbach’s disappearance. Nonetheless, he was convicted based on that confession and sentenced to life in prison with no chance for parole before 2048. In 2016, two courts threw out Brendan's confession and overturned his conviction – and Brendan came within twelve hours of release – before a federal appeals court reversed course on legal grounds. After visiting Brendan in prison, Jason Flom and Brendan’s attorney, Laura Nirider of the Center on Wrongful Convictions, unravel the case as Brendan joins them by phone from behind bars. Their conversation touches on hope, resilience, and the fact that Brendan – who will turn 30 on October 19, 2019 – has already lost fourteen of his life to wrongful imprisonment.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm. You know
many of our listeners. Most of our listeners have seen
the Netflix original series Making a Murderer. It's the story
of Stephen Avery, a guy from the wrong side of
the tracks whose family owned an auto salvage yard and Manitowac, Wisconsin.
It starts off in where and Stephen Avery was wrongfully
convicted of a sexual assault, for which he was exonerated
(00:25):
eighteen years later when the DNA in the case was
found to match another man and his alibis were proven
to have been true all along. After his release. In
two thousand three, Avery file the thirty six million dollars
civil suit against Manitowa County, Wisconsin, and several of its officials.
Fast forward to two thousand five, Teresa Hauback, a photographer
(00:47):
known to have been photographing cars on the Avery property,
went missing. The handling of the investigation was quite controversial,
to say the least, with issues of evidence tampering, not
to mention the obvious conflict of interest in allowing Manatoa
County to investigate the very same man who was suing
them for thirty six million dollars. However, all of that aside,
(01:08):
the most damning piece of evidence came in the form
of a false confession from Avery's nephew, Brendon Dassy, a
sixteen year old boy with no criminal record and serious
mental challenges. Now, I'm honored to present the exclusive, the
one and only interview that Brendan has ever given to
anyone joining us has esteemed appellate attorney from the Center
(01:33):
on Wrongful Convictions at Northwestern University my friend Laura Ni Rider.
Laura was kind enough to pick me up from the
airport in Chicago and we drove out to Oshkosh Correctional
Facility for a pre interview behind bars with Brendan. This
(01:53):
left us with both time to talk and plenty to
talk about. We have had a very eventful last twenty
four hours. Yeah, you know, it's been a trip I've
done so many times for going on twelve years now,
and you know, I was a trip I hoped to
never have to make again. But it's a trip that
(02:15):
you know what, We're going to keep on doing um
for as long as we have to do right, go
out there, support him, and I'm just glad you had
a chance to see who Brendan is. You know to
really spend some time with him and get to know him,
because he's a he's a pretty incredible guy. Brandon is
a very powerful example of a phenomenon that amazes me
and keeps me going and drives me onward in this fight,
(02:37):
which is that there is an absolute and total absence
of malice, anger, bitterness, self pity. Like I don't even
think he knows what those emotions are. He's an incredible guy.
I mean, you know, he was sixteen when he went in.
He's twenty nine years old now, and during that whole
(02:58):
period of time of knowing him, You're right, I mean,
Brendan is a sweet soul. You know, he's a he's
a simple guy. He's a funny guy. He's gentle. He's
so gentle and kind, but not shallow and no, no,
he's not. That's right, And in his story is one
of extreme juxtaposition, right, because he went from being a
very childlike young person adolescent into a very extreme grown
(03:22):
up situation. You got involved with Brendan's case at what stage? Well,
let's start with Steve Drisen, my colleague on the case.
In two thousand seven, about three months after Brendan was
convicted at his trial. Steve was asked to handle Brendan's
appeals going forward because of his expertise around interrogations and confessions.
(03:49):
He was just another of the two point two million
people in prison, and right, that's rights. They and Steve
took the case. Now this is two thousand seven, Okay.
So at the time, Steve was teaching here at Northwestern
Law School, and I was a third year law student
in Steve's class on wrongful convictions. Now, I didn't intend
(04:09):
to practice criminal law. I actually had a career all
mapped out for myself as a business lawyer. I was
going to go do that. I had a job lined
up after graduation. I knew nothing at a law firm
here in town, here in Chicago, And you know, I
knew nothing about the criminal justice system. I knew nothing
about wrongful convictions. I definitely knew nothing about false confessions.
But I had signed up for Steve's class, you know,
(04:31):
on a whim, try to do something off the beaten path.
And a few months into that fall semester of my
last year of law school, that's you know, Steve called
me into his office and he said, I've just gotten
involved in a case from Wisconsin involving a sixteen year
old boy with intellectual limitations who confessed to a crime
(04:55):
that I don't think he committed. And he handed me
the interrogation videos from Brendon Daisy's case, right the same
videos that years and years later ended up in Making
a Murderer. And he told me to go watch them.
So I went home. I sat down on my couch,
I got at my laptop, because this is two thousand seven,
I popp in these DVDs and I watched them all
(05:17):
right from start to finish, their confession tapes, and my
heart broke, and I knew that this is it, this
is what I had to do with, you know, fight
for people like Brendan. So um, you know, no more,
no more business law for me. I came back to
Northwestern after graduating, and for the last twelve years, I've
(05:38):
been building with Steve the Center on Wrongful Convictions, where
we represent Brendon and other kids just like him. So
for the people who may not have seen Making a Murderer,
and there are those who listened to our show who
haven't seen it yet, what was it, what was the moment?
What was it about those tapes? Yeah, it's a great question.
You know, I actually remember the moment. Right. It's so
this is a videotape of the entire interrogation. Right. He
(05:59):
was actually questioned four times over forty eight hours, and
it was only the last interrogation that produced the confession.
You know, which I which I say on quotation marks. Um.
But this is an interrogation where they're asking Brendan about murder. Right,
this is a murder case. So they want to ask
him about, you know, how was the victim in this case?
How was Theresa Hallback killed? Right? And and these police
(06:20):
going into the interrogation, they know, or they think they
know based on their own investigation, that she had been
shot in the head. So they're waiting for Brendan to
describe shooting somebody in the head, right, So they asked him,
you know, Brendan, how did you guys? You know, how
did how did you kill Theresa Hallback? And he says,
we choked her. Well, that's that's not right. So they
(06:45):
said him, okay, um, you know what else, Brendan, what
else did you do to her? What else did he
do it? Where we know something else was done? We
stabbed her? Still not right? So they actually started not
even close, so they started dropping him hints, right, They say,
come on, and something with the head, something with the head?
What else did you guys do to her? And Brendan says,
(07:05):
we punched her, and that's still not right. So it's
like Brendan's completely at sea, and he says, you know,
we caught off her hair. Hair and as the voice
goes up like that like he's asking a question and no, no, no, Brendan,
come on, what else? What else? Something with the head?
What else? What else? What else was done to her head?
(07:25):
And this goes on and on and on, and finally Brendan,
you know, he must get exhausted and he just says,
I can remember. And the officers at that point say
to him, Brendan, I'm just going to come out and
ask you to come out and ask him who shot
her in the head, And you know, Brendan says, well,
that was that was my uncle Stephen. And then, you know,
(07:49):
comes one of the most heartbreaking moments of the entire
interrogation because they say to him, Brendan, why didn't you
just tell us that? Why didn't you tell us that?
And he says, because I couldn't think of it, right,
he was guessing. Yeah, So let's say you're not convinced
(08:17):
the way I am that Brendan was guessing. Let's say
for a moment that the story was true, that this
bloody attack occurred in Stephen Avery's bedroom the way that
Brendan's confession claimed that it did. You'd expect that bedroom
and that bed to be covered with forensic evidence blood
from a stabbing and throat cutting, hair from when her
(08:38):
hair was supposedly cut. I mean, think about how hard
it is to clean up hair. And of course, after
Brendan gave his confession, the police went back to Stephen
Avery's bedroom and they searched it for evidence to corroborate
the confession. They searched the bed, They searched the bedding,
the mattress, the headboard, the bed frame. They looked at
(09:01):
the carpet underneath the bed. They pulled that carpet back
and looked underneath the carpet. They even took the paneling
off the walls in the bedroom, searching for a single
molecule of Teresa Halbos DNA or Brendan Dacy's DNA, and
they found nothing. This story didn't happen it's made up.
(09:31):
The day after our face to face meeting at Oshkosh Directional,
we did our formal interview with Brendan over the phone
from Laura's office at Northwestern University got Directional Lavolt. Hello,
Hey Brendon, Hi Brendon. It seems like only yesterday that
(09:53):
I saw you, because it was only yesterday, and it
was great to meet you. You know, Laura and I
had a long ride back to Chicago, and obviously we
talked about you a lot and things that we are
hoping to do to make a difference for you and
with you, I mean, well, to wait for the announcement
(10:15):
to go by, you went through an ordeal that even
those of us that have seen the show and have
seen on video parts of what happened, obviously we couldn't
see the whole thing, but none of us can understand
what it would be like to be in your shoes,
you know, to be in this impossible situation of being
(10:36):
a really a child at sixteen. You're still a child,
You're not a grown man, and to be going to
this interrogation where you have grown men who are interrogating
you for days, without a parent, without a lawyer, without
anyone to help you. I mean, were you scared or
were you just thought maybe if you just told the truth,
(10:58):
everything would be fine. Was your thought process at that point? Well,
I just wanted it all over with, so I said
whatever they wanted to hear. You know, most people grow
up as I did, with believing that the law enforcement
are out to help us, right, there are people you
call when you need help. Did you have that same
idea when you went in there? Yeah, I thought maybe
(11:22):
anything I can do to help them, you know I would.
So was there a point when you were in that
horrible room where you started to worry about the outcome,
or that you thought that these men may have been
not as well intentioned as you originally thought. Yeah. When
(11:43):
they started saying that that I wasn't telling the truth
and that that my story didn't fit the facts that
they had, that's when I started getting worried. There's a
very good reason your story didn't fit the fact, because
you didn't know the fact. Yeah, so, Brandon, you remember
there was a time when the interrogators left the room
(12:06):
for a few minutes and your mom came back into
the room. Yeah, beautiful. Yeah, did you huh not really? Well?
Do you need not? Really? That's huh what do you
(12:35):
mean by that? So? Was that the first time you
had seen your mom since they had started interrogating you? Yeah,
it is okay. So what was it like to see
her after being alone with those interrogators for such a
long time? I felt that I could be safe and
I could tell her the truth. You know that they
got into my head, They got me to say whatever
(12:59):
they on it. Do you think either before, during, or
after that, the detectives conducting that interrogation knew or realized
(13:19):
that he was actually innocent? You know, it's a It's
a very good question, and it's something I've asked myself
right over and over again. Um, this is just my opinion.
But I think that they we're worried that something had
gone wrong. Brendan's already been in the box for about
three and a half hours. He's adopted their their theories
(13:40):
that he committed rape and murder and the whole thing,
and the story is over, it's done, it's locked, and
they let her into the room and the cameras are
still rolling in the room, right and they leave the
two of them alone. You know, it's my theory that
they were outside watching this all unclosed circuit camera, hoping
that Brendan was going to make more admissions to his mother. Instead,
he recame ants one of the clearest recantations I've ever heard, Right,
(14:03):
Brendan using his own words, his own ability to express himself,
to tell his mom what he had just been through.
They got to my head. And at that moment, the
officers come barging back through that door into the interrogation room,
and Brendon doesn't say another word. Oh yeah, I'm getting
(14:27):
the chills. I mean, as a parent, it's just so heartbreaking.
And look, I always say there are a lot of
very good people in our criminal justice system, but the
ones who do the types of things that were done
to Brandon. I mean, there's a lot of villains in
this story, right, some unbelievable characters in this story. Yeah,
And so the system that was designed in theory to
(14:48):
protect the innocent in this case, to protect Brendan, failed
at every level. I mean, starting in the interrogation room,
that's right, starting with the fact that they targeted him
in the first place. And I don't really understand, I
mean I have at the in my own head about
why they may have done that. And maybe we'll never know,
but it seems like to me they wanted to build
a stronger case against Stephen, no doubt about it, and
(15:08):
so they went for the weakest LINKA knew that small community,
they knew that Brendan was a simple person. Well, that's right,
And you know, one of the things about Brendan, of course,
he's got disabilities. Everybody knows that. But his disabilities in
particular are clustered around speech, the way he speaks, the
way he hears language, why he processes words, and the
way he uses his own words. Right, so you know,
(15:31):
this is not a person who can sort of weave
sophisticated stories or lies or things like that. And of
course these are disabilities that are at the center of
an interrogation, right, the sort of sophisticated level of conversation
talking about you know, what could happen to him if
he if he didn't confess because there was a threat
in this case, what would happen to him if he
didn't start adopting the story that was being fed to him.
(15:52):
What was going to happen On the other hand, if
he if he did agree to go along with the story.
You know, this is a really hard situation for someone
like brendan sixteen special education student in Wisconsin public schools,
hard situation for him to navigate. He did the best
he could for as long as he could, for as
long as he could. Four times, over forty eight hours,
these officers questioned him, and it should have been a
(16:14):
first round knockout. Oh my god, he held up as
long as he could. We've been investigating a lot, so
it is. We already know what happened. To be a
lot easier on you if you live on it, that's
going to be wrong. I'm your friends, really unfair place,
honest person. I get a better deal lot of that.
(16:35):
You're gonna believe that. I don't believe in. You can't.
You can't make any problems. But we'll stand behind you.
And your mom said to be honest with she's behind you.
Know what happened. She thinks you don't want to more
and you're more corner. We already know what happened. I'll
tell us exactly. What would you tell people when they're
(16:57):
sitting in that jury box and there listening to incredible
testimony videotapes, someone going yeah, I did it? Yeah, So
what should people because some confessions are true. Of course,
some confessions are true. Those are the ones we want, right,
it's you know, we got to screen out the false confessions. Okay,
So the big message, right, A confession is just a
(17:18):
piece of evidence, like any other piece of evidence. Right,
Sometimes it can be misleading, and you question it and
you examine it in the same way that you'd ask
you know, critical questions, intelligent questions about any other piece
of evidence. Right, Can I trust what this person is saying?
So when you see a confession like Brendan Dacy's, where
somebody is getting the facts of the crime wrong unless
(17:42):
they're being told the right answer, that's a red flag. Right.
It happens throughout Brendan's interrogation, details large and small. He
can't come up with. He's guessing, and he guesses wrong, actually,
until he gets straightened out by the officers. Not just
about how Teresa Halback was killed, but he can't decide
if for shirt was black or white. Right, he doesn't
(18:02):
know what what the right answer is because he never
saw her, That's right. He can't decide if the fire
was started at three pm or later on in the
evening after dark, right, I mean he doesn't know these things.
He's just guessing all over the place. And you see
this repeatedly throughout false confession cases, because what you have
in those cases are people who had nothing to do
with the crime trying to say something that sounds believable
(18:24):
to satisfy their interrogators. Almost everybody I've ever met says
the same thing. I am not that guy. I'm smart,
I'm capable, I'm strong, I'm not confessing to cremated and
commit Everybody thinks us, right, Well, that's for other people, right,
that's for you know, maybe mentally impaired people, that's for
children maybe. So what you have to understand is that
interrogation is a carefully orchestrated set of psychological tactics that
(18:47):
are designed to get people off their belief in their
own innocence and designed to actually make them believe that
it will help them, that it will improve their situation,
that it will benefit them to say they did these
things that the officers think. Right, these are incredibly powerful techniques,
and every single one of us has a breaking point,
(19:09):
and these techniques are designed to find it. So how
does this work? Right? So, the way this basically works
interrogation is generally a two stage process. The first half
is all about confrontation and reducing you down to hopelessness. Right,
we know you did this. I've got so much evidence
against you. No one is going to believe you when
you say you're innocent. Right, I've got three people in
(19:32):
the room next door who picked you out of a lineup.
I've got your d n A on the scene, I've
got your fingerprints on the gun. Even if none of
that is true. By the way, that's perfectly legal for
police to lie. That's right. Not the UK, that's right,
but here it's perfectly legal for the police to lie
during interrogations. So they bring you down to hopelessness. Right,
I'm not gonna listen to you say you're innocent. You're
just making it worse off for yourself. No one's gonna
(19:54):
believe you. You're caught, you're trapped, you're screwed, You've got nothing.
And and when you reach that point of hopelessness, that's
when they offer you and out right a life raft confession.
It's going to help you. If you confess, we'll go
easy on you. You know, I'll go talk to the judge. Right,
(20:17):
I'll see what I can do for you. You, things
are going to be so much better for you. You've
got a whole life to live in front of you.
You're just a kid. People are going to understand that
over and over, but I need to hear the story
from you. Right. People are going to understand that you
deserve help if you cooperate. That's how it works, right.
These techniques are incredibly good at getting true confessions, but
(20:39):
they're so potent that they also get false confessions. And
this actually we're sitting here in Chicago, which is where
this was originated, right, the read technique read technique actually
even better than that. It's originated here out of the
work of a professor at Northwestern Law School back in
the nineties. Right. So, before these that's right, before these
psychological techniques were developed, interrogations were physical, right the third degree.
(21:03):
People were beaten or hung out of windows. Right that,
this is how it was done. And then the forties,
these people who at the time were thought of as
progressive reformers come along and say, you know what, let's
stop physically abusing people. Let's do the psychological techniques instead.
Those techniques that were developed here at Northwestern here in Chicago,
back in the nineties are still being used today talk
(21:26):
about outdated, even though the DNA revolution, which has been
in full swing now for twenty five years, has proven
time and again that these outdated techniques are far too
capable of coercing false confessions. The crazy thing is correct
me if I'm wrong, you're the lawyer in this equation.
But had Brendan said what I advised people listening to
(21:50):
the show or anybody who asked me anywhere, if you're
picked up for a crime that you can't commit, and
you're brought to the stage, and you're placed in this situation, right,
and you see to yourself, well, I don't want to
end up like Brendon, What do you do? I want
a lawyer, that's what you say, right. I want a
(22:12):
lawyer that stops the interrogation, or it should stop the interrogation.
That's your constitutional right to say that. What's interesting, of course,
you know the Miranda rights are read usually at the
beginning of interrogations of people wave their Miranda rights. So
I mean a huge number of people do, right. We
think of these as these important safeguards, and everybody's out
there asserting their rights to lawyers, and they're right. To
(22:33):
be silent and all the you know, everybody waves these rights.
And you know, we've all been in that situation right
where you get pulled over and you think you can
talk your way out of it. People wave these rights.
They don't understand how these rights can help them, especially kids. Right.
What does it mean to a kid? What does it
mean to Brendan Dacy that he can have a lawyer
in the room, that his admissions will be used against
him in court. He doesn't know what a lawyer does.
He doesn't understand the ways in which a lawyer could
(22:55):
help him or improve his situation or stop this from
happening to him. But yeah, huge numbers of people wave
those rights. And it's actually the numbers are even greater
when we're talking about innocent people, right, because you go home, right,
nothing to hide. Of course, I'll talk to you, right.
And you may also be sitting there thinking, well, if
it's going to take a long time for lawer to
get here, wait, I have things to do. Let me
(23:17):
just clear this up. No problem, I'll be out of here. No,
we're begging you. This is Jason and Laura personally begging you.
You're in that situation. There's only four words you need.
I want a lawyer. Part of the process that landed
Brendon in this situation, which was his own team. Can
(23:38):
you tell us what that was like? I mean being
represented by this guide. Um. When I first met him,
I knew that he didn't have my best interest in
in mind because he was always trying to get me
to take a plea deal or something. So you knew
right away. Yeah, Brendon, that a lot of credit you
(24:00):
because you know, many people might not have picked up
on that so quickly, because people go into that situation
they think, well, this is my lawyer is going to
be protecting me and defending me. Um. Yeah, so you
knew right away. But then as things progressed, I mean,
did you feel betrayed or did you feel hopeful that
maybe he was going to turn it around and actually
(24:20):
do his job? No, especially since that when I saw
him on TV with Nancy Drace, you know, and he's
more or less tolder that he believes that I'm guilty. Wow. Yeah,
there's a lot of things wrong with that whole scenario.
I mean, did you mentioned that named Nancy Grayson, like
(24:41):
you know, my skin crawls, um, and that Yeah, the
fact that he went on there with her is horrible.
And then you had this investigator who was supposed to
be helping you, and can you talk about that a
little bit? What do you want to know? Well, when
he was asking you to drop picture and all these
other things, and he was sort of badgering you, like Brendan,
(25:04):
you did this? What about this investigator? At first I
thought maybe he would try to help me, you know,
but then when he was trying to get me to
more or let's give another confession, you know, I knew
right then and there that he wasn't at my side either.
So basically, you had your family and and that was
(25:25):
pretty much it. But they're not lawyers and they're not investigators.
They're just just regular people. Right. Yeah, how did being
represented or misrepresented by lenn and the things that he did,
How did that make you feel? It made me feel
betrayed and that I couldn't really trust lawyers either, But
(25:45):
now I can't. What an insane set of twists and turns. Yeah,
we've represented Brendon Dascy through the state court appeal system
where that the state courts in Wisconsin. We're not particular
really bothered by what they saw on that interrogation video,
but we we sort of expected that, and then we
took his case, As people who watched Making a Murderer
(26:08):
will remember, we took his case to the federal court system.
Right with this basically works as you can go to
federal court and you can say, hey, federal court, will
you review the way in which the Wisconsin state courts
protected Brendan's rights. So that's what we did. We went
to the federal courts. We filed what's called a petition
for a wit of habeas corpus, asking the federal court
to take a look at how the state courts handled
(26:29):
Brendan's case. But but there is a trick here. Okay,
So let's say you go into federal courts and you
proved to them beyond the shadow of a doubt, right
that the state court was wrong in how it handled
Brendan's case, you lose. In order to win in federal court,
(26:50):
you have to prove not only that the state court
was wrong in how it handled Brendan's case, but that
it was so unreasonably wrong that no other judge in
America could possibly have ruled the same way. Right, that's
literally the legal standard thanks to the Anti Terrorism and
(27:10):
Effective Death Penalty Act signed into law in nine, which
keeps you know a lot of innocent prisoners like Brendan
Dacy from accessing this kind of relief in the federal courts.
So that's the needle that you have to thread in
federal court. So we filed our petition, you know, we
we made these arguments, yes, this is that's not just wrong,
it's it's unreasonably wrong. No one else would rule this way.
(27:32):
And we sat and waited months and months and months
for a decision, and we got our decision. You know,
we'd we'd won after years of representing Brendan, we'd won
in the federal district court, you know, which was a
moment of enormous joy, as you can imagine. But we knew,
because we've pushed the boulder up the hill a lot
of times before, we knew that that was just round one,
(27:53):
that the state had every right to appeal, that it
was going to appeal this case. And it did. That's right,
that's right, um. And so when we found out that
they were going to appeal, we said, you know what,
that is your right. We can't stop you from doing that,
but we want Brendan out right, we want him home.
This is right around Thanksgiving. Um, we want him home
for the holidays while you guys do your thing. So
(28:13):
we asked the court to release Brendan during the appeals
and you know, we made all of our arguments. Here's
where he's going to go live. He's going to be
in a protected environment. We have a social worker on
the space, you know, working on the case, identifying resources
supports for him. Outside the court said okay, yeah, let's
let Brendon go home. Right, He's not a danger to
this community. I believe in him. I can see he's
(28:36):
it's gonna be fine, So let's release him. And we
had an order directing the State of Wisconsin to release
Brendon Dancy and came within about twelve hours of getting
Brendan out before the State of Wisconsin asked the appeals
court to block that order and they did. So, you know, okay, um,
(29:01):
we go forward with the appeal. The state files it's briefed,
we file our briefs, We argue it out in court
before the appeals court, the federal appeals courts, and again, right,
we're trying to thread the eye of the needle here
we wait and wait and wait for our verdict, for
our decision, and we won again right, two to one.
If this is in front of three judges, we'd one
two to one, which is another moment of great joy.
(29:25):
Two to one, I'll take it. Except please notice that
as we studied this decision was two to one decision,
there was suddenly another judge in America who would have
ruled to keep Brendan Dacy still in prison. Right. And
the more we read that dissenting judge's opinion, we realized
(29:48):
that it read like an open invitation for the state
of Wisconsin to try this very rare legal maneuver rehearing
on bonk, where you throw out the appeal and redo
it in front of the full court. And that's exactly
what they did. We argued that case and lost by
a single vote, four to three. Steve and I are
(30:12):
not not done fighting for Brendan, and the world isn't either,
and the Wisconsin Nights aren't either. Right, So today we
have filed a petition with the Governor of Wisconsin asking
that he grant Brendan clemency, that he released Brendan Dacy
from prison. It's the only person in the world with
(30:35):
the power to do that, Governor Tony Evers. We hear
so much from people in state, out of state, right,
people from all over all four corners of Wisconsin, Madison, Milwaukee,
but up in Superior, up in Green Bay, out in
Eau Claire, right, Lacrosse. I get these messages constantly from
people who who just think it's time for Brendan to
come home. You know, it's past time, and we know where.
(30:58):
We're honored to be in a position where we can
hopefully show the governor it's the right time to do this. Yes,
And the good news is that by all accounts, this
governor is a reasonable man. He's had experience. Um, he's
visited a juvenile detention facilities one of the first things
he did after That's right, he did. And he comes
from the education system. You know, he was the head
of the Wisconsin Board of Education before he assumed the
(31:20):
governor's office. So this is somebody who understands. You know,
Brendan was a tenth grader in the public school special
education system. Right, That's who he was. In many ways,
it's still who he is Brendan. Um. You know, one
of the things I was personally so um, struck by
(31:43):
was when we spoke yesterday about your dreams for after
you get out um and what you want to do
in the world. Do you mind sort of talking about
that a little bit. I mean, like getting into making
and playing video games well and hopefully getting paid for it. Yeah.
(32:03):
We oh. I think it was Laura that asked you
if you had a superpower, what would That's right, That's
always one of my favorite questions to ask, Brendon. I
would want to have the power to heal illnesses and
diseases all over the world. And where do you think
that comes from? Like, I mean, it's a great superpower.
I'd like to have it too. But of all the things,
why do you think that one is the one that
came to your mind. Well, I just like helping people,
(32:26):
so I wanted to help other people in the world.
I mean, look, there's a lot of people that want
to help you too, and it's amazing. We talked about
yesterday how many letters you get. Do you figure you've
gotten letters from every state in the country by now,
all fifty states? It's got to be close. Uh huh.
You know, Brendan, why don't you tell them some of
the countries that people have sent you letters from Do
you remember some of the countries Singapore, England, Ireland, Iceland,
(32:53):
South America, Canada, Hawaii, New Zealand too, Yeah, you've Australia, right, Australia,
it's amazing. And also some from Wisconsin. Right. Yeah, that's great.
So there's tens of millions of people now all over
the world, as you know, who have watched Making a
Murderer have learned about your story. Do you want to
(33:14):
see the show when you get out? Are you interested?
I might eat? I don't know if I can, though, Yeah,
you made it might be hard to watch, Yeah, you know,
more or less because I lived it, So why would
I want to watch it again? Really understandable after everything
you've been through and all the twists and turns and
the freedom being sort of, you know, yanked away from
(33:37):
you twice? Really? Yeah, what was that? Like? Your bags
were packed, right, You're ready to go home, and then
they pulled the rug out from under you. I mean
I would think that would make somebody crazy. Yeah, I
was a little depressed, and on called my mom at night,
and you know, I was I was upset, you know,
and so she was she you know what she thought
(33:59):
I was going to becoming home, you know, and I
was willing to give up all my stuff, you know,
just walk out the doors with nothing, right, So you
were going to give it to some of the other
guys in there or either that or or just tell
all the person that they can keep it right, Well,
you weren't going to need it anymore. Yeah, what helps
(34:20):
you sort of get through this, Brendan? As this was
all happening to you, where did you find your strength? Uh?
Mostly having my family support me and have my back,
especially your mom, right, Yeah, today's visiting day. Might Yeah,
I'll beginning to visit from my mom tonight. It means everything,
(34:40):
you know. They have a family that loves and supports
me no matter what, and you always have my back,
you know. Yeah, And it's really as hardening to know
that so many people care and still care. And what
would you tell people that want to get involved that
have seen your story? Didn't really have any idea of
(35:00):
what goes on in our justice system, but now they do.
Is there anything particularly you could advise someone, Um, just
keep fighting for me and uh, keep showing your love
and support and then there's a lot of ways to
do that and going to you know, Innocence Project dot
(35:21):
org is a good place to start, Laura. Are there
other places people can go to learn more about this
case and follow your progress and the progress and getting
Brendan home. Absolutely, Folks can go to c w c
Y dot org. That's the Center on Wrongful Convictions of Youth.
You can learn a lot more about Brendan's case, reada's
legal papers, and follow developments as they happen. And do
(35:44):
you have social media yourself that we can tag you
in here, because we want to have people follow you
and your progress, not only on Brendan's case, but also
on all the other amazing work that you're doing. I do,
I do. I'm on Instagram and Twitter both at Laura
and I writerer. That's easy at Laura and I writer.
And now, as regular listeners of the show, No, it's
(36:06):
time for the best part of the show, closing arguments,
where I get to just kick back in my chair
turn my microphone off. First of all, thank you again
for taking the time to share your thoughts and your
perspective and your spirit with me and with our audience.
And of course thank you Laura for arranging this and
(36:28):
for being such a passionate, dedicated, obsessive justice fighter, um
and for being on the show. So Laura, first, thank
you for being here. Thanks for giving this opportunity to
let the world here who Brendon Nassis. You know, there
have been so many people out there who watched Making
a Murderer and we're moved disturbed by Brendan's story and
(36:50):
who've reached out to us to ask what they can
do to help Brendan. There's something really easy you can do.
Maybe this upcoming weekend, you find yourself the nextra ten
and ates the time, think about sending him a letter. Right.
These letters don't have to be long, they don't have
to be powerful, but just tell him, you know, keep
(37:11):
your head high. I believe in you. Right, we're fighting
for you. It'll happen for you. These letters are such
a small gesture on the part of every one of us,
but they sustain him, right. They give him hope every day,
(37:32):
and that gives us the hope we need to keep
on fighting. So find his address on the Wisconsin Department
of Corrections website. He's in the Oshkosh Correctional Institution. Reach
out to him, let him know he's got friends all
over the world who believe in him. If you want
to get involved in other ways, you can do that.
(37:52):
You can educate yourself. There are a lot of other books, films,
TV shows about wrongful conviction. Right, Brendon is not the
only one. Get out there. Watch when they see us, Right,
Watch the Paradise Last series about the West Memphis three
or West of Memphis. Watch Murder on a Sunday morning, Right,
watch the confession tapes. You can see incredible shows, read
(38:15):
incredible books about this happening over and over, some of
which we've mentioned today, and you can get out there.
Of course, you can support organizations like the Center on
Wrongful Convictions or the Innocence Project or a lot of
other incredible organizations that do this work. But most importantly, right,
don't stop saying Brendan Dacy's name. Get out there on
social media, remember him, Keep insisting that the people with
(38:39):
power in the system do justice for Brendan. Write letters
to the governor of Wisconsin. Tell him what you see
when you see Brandon on TV. Tell him what you
hear when you hear Brendon on a podcast like this,
especially if you live in Wisconsin. Tell him you want
Brendan home. That's the difference that you can make. It's
(39:01):
a huge difference. We rely on people like you to
light the way, to show the path for doing the
right thing here. So thank you to everybody who's written
to Brendon. Keep doing it, keep showing your support. Let's
get him home together and Brendan, Um, thank you again
for you know, letting me come see you and for
(39:22):
spending time on the air with us today. Um, and
now I get to leave it open for you to
say whatever you want as we close the show. UM,
I don't know what to say. UM. I love Pokemon
and my favorite Pokemon is Mew. But there's a new
(39:47):
one coming out called l Creamy that I really like.
And uh, hopefully I get to see some of the
more new ones coming out pretty soon. Don't forget to
(40:22):
give us a fantastic review wherever you get your podcasts,
it really helps. And I'm a proud donor to the
Innocence Project and I really hope you'll join me in
supporting this very important cause and helping to prevent future
wrongful convictions. Go to Innocence Project dot org to learn
how to donate and get involved. I'd like to thank
our production team Connor Hall and Kevin Wardis. The music
(40:44):
on the show is by three time OSCAR nominated composer
Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on Instagram at
brown Ful Conviction and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast.
Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flam is a production Lava for
Good Podcasts in association with Signal Company Number one
Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm. You know
many of our listeners. Most of our listeners have seen
the Netflix original series Making a Murderer. It's the story
of Stephen Avery, a guy from the wrong side of
the tracks whose family owned an auto salvage yard and Manitowac, Wisconsin.
It starts off in where and Stephen Avery was wrongfully
convicted of a sexual assault, for which he was exonerated
(00:25):
eighteen years later when the DNA in the case was
found to match another man and his alibis were proven
to have been true all along. After his release. In
two thousand three, Avery file the thirty six million dollars
civil suit against Manitowa County, Wisconsin, and several of its officials.
Fast forward to two thousand five, Teresa Hauback, a photographer
(00:47):
known to have been photographing cars on the Avery property,
went missing. The handling of the investigation was quite controversial,
to say the least, with issues of evidence tampering, not
to mention the obvious conflict of interest in allowing Manatoa
County to investigate the very same man who was suing
them for thirty six million dollars. However, all of that aside,
(01:08):
the most damning piece of evidence came in the form
of a false confession from Avery's nephew, Brendon Dassy, a
sixteen year old boy with no criminal record and serious
mental challenges. Now, I'm honored to present the exclusive, the
one and only interview that Brendan has ever given to
anyone joining us has esteemed appellate attorney from the Center
(01:33):
on Wrongful Convictions at Northwestern University my friend Laura Ni Rider.
Laura was kind enough to pick me up from the
airport in Chicago and we drove out to Oshkosh Correctional
Facility for a pre interview behind bars with Brendan. This
(01:53):
left us with both time to talk and plenty to
talk about. We have had a very eventful last twenty
four hours. Yeah, you know, it's been a trip I've
done so many times for going on twelve years now,
and you know, I was a trip I hoped to
never have to make again. But it's a trip that
(02:15):
you know what, We're going to keep on doing um
for as long as we have to do right, go
out there, support him, and I'm just glad you had
a chance to see who Brendan is. You know to
really spend some time with him and get to know him,
because he's a he's a pretty incredible guy. Brandon is
a very powerful example of a phenomenon that amazes me
and keeps me going and drives me onward in this fight,
(02:37):
which is that there is an absolute and total absence
of malice, anger, bitterness, self pity. Like I don't even
think he knows what those emotions are. He's an incredible guy.
I mean, you know, he was sixteen when he went in.
He's twenty nine years old now, and during that whole
(02:58):
period of time of knowing him, You're right, I mean,
Brendan is a sweet soul. You know, he's a he's
a simple guy. He's a funny guy. He's gentle. He's
so gentle and kind, but not shallow and no, no,
he's not. That's right, And in his story is one
of extreme juxtaposition, right, because he went from being a
very childlike young person adolescent into a very extreme grown
(03:22):
up situation. You got involved with Brendan's case at what stage? Well,
let's start with Steve Drisen, my colleague on the case.
In two thousand seven, about three months after Brendan was
convicted at his trial. Steve was asked to handle Brendan's
appeals going forward because of his expertise around interrogations and confessions.
(03:49):
He was just another of the two point two million
people in prison, and right, that's rights. They and Steve
took the case. Now this is two thousand seven, Okay.
So at the time, Steve was teaching here at Northwestern
Law School, and I was a third year law student
in Steve's class on wrongful convictions. Now, I didn't intend
(04:09):
to practice criminal law. I actually had a career all
mapped out for myself as a business lawyer. I was
going to go do that. I had a job lined
up after graduation. I knew nothing at a law firm
here in town, here in Chicago, And you know, I
knew nothing about the criminal justice system. I knew nothing
about wrongful convictions. I definitely knew nothing about false confessions.
But I had signed up for Steve's class, you know,
(04:31):
on a whim, try to do something off the beaten path.
And a few months into that fall semester of my
last year of law school, that's you know, Steve called
me into his office and he said, I've just gotten
involved in a case from Wisconsin involving a sixteen year
old boy with intellectual limitations who confessed to a crime
(04:55):
that I don't think he committed. And he handed me
the interrogation videos from Brendon Daisy's case, right the same
videos that years and years later ended up in Making
a Murderer. And he told me to go watch them.
So I went home. I sat down on my couch,
I got at my laptop, because this is two thousand seven,
I popp in these DVDs and I watched them all
(05:17):
right from start to finish, their confession tapes, and my
heart broke, and I knew that this is it, this
is what I had to do with, you know, fight
for people like Brendan. So um, you know, no more,
no more business law for me. I came back to
Northwestern after graduating, and for the last twelve years, I've
(05:38):
been building with Steve the Center on Wrongful Convictions, where
we represent Brendon and other kids just like him. So
for the people who may not have seen Making a Murderer,
and there are those who listened to our show who
haven't seen it yet, what was it, what was the moment?
What was it about those tapes? Yeah, it's a great question.
You know, I actually remember the moment. Right. It's so
this is a videotape of the entire interrogation. Right. He
(05:59):
was actually questioned four times over forty eight hours, and
it was only the last interrogation that produced the confession.
You know, which I which I say on quotation marks. Um.
But this is an interrogation where they're asking Brendan about murder. Right,
this is a murder case. So they want to ask
him about, you know, how was the victim in this case?
How was Theresa Hallback killed? Right? And and these police
(06:20):
going into the interrogation, they know, or they think they
know based on their own investigation, that she had been
shot in the head. So they're waiting for Brendan to
describe shooting somebody in the head, right, So they asked him,
you know, Brendan, how did you guys? You know, how
did how did you kill Theresa Hallback? And he says,
we choked her. Well, that's that's not right. So they
(06:45):
said him, okay, um, you know what else, Brendan, what
else did you do to her? What else did he
do it? Where we know something else was done? We
stabbed her? Still not right? So they actually started not
even close, so they started dropping him hints, right, They say,
come on, and something with the head, something with the head?
What else did you guys do to her? And Brendan says,
(07:05):
we punched her, and that's still not right. So it's
like Brendan's completely at sea, and he says, you know,
we caught off her hair. Hair and as the voice
goes up like that like he's asking a question and no, no, no, Brendan,
come on, what else? What else? Something with the head?
What else? What else? What else was done to her head?
(07:25):
And this goes on and on and on, and finally Brendan,
you know, he must get exhausted and he just says,
I can remember. And the officers at that point say
to him, Brendan, I'm just going to come out and
ask you to come out and ask him who shot
her in the head, And you know, Brendan says, well,
that was that was my uncle Stephen. And then, you know,
(07:49):
comes one of the most heartbreaking moments of the entire
interrogation because they say to him, Brendan, why didn't you
just tell us that? Why didn't you tell us that?
And he says, because I couldn't think of it, right,
he was guessing. Yeah, So let's say you're not convinced
(08:17):
the way I am that Brendan was guessing. Let's say
for a moment that the story was true, that this
bloody attack occurred in Stephen Avery's bedroom the way that
Brendan's confession claimed that it did. You'd expect that bedroom
and that bed to be covered with forensic evidence blood
from a stabbing and throat cutting, hair from when her
(08:38):
hair was supposedly cut. I mean, think about how hard
it is to clean up hair. And of course, after
Brendan gave his confession, the police went back to Stephen
Avery's bedroom and they searched it for evidence to corroborate
the confession. They searched the bed, They searched the bedding,
the mattress, the headboard, the bed frame. They looked at
(09:01):
the carpet underneath the bed. They pulled that carpet back
and looked underneath the carpet. They even took the paneling
off the walls in the bedroom, searching for a single
molecule of Teresa Halbos DNA or Brendan Dacy's DNA, and
they found nothing. This story didn't happen it's made up.
(09:31):
The day after our face to face meeting at Oshkosh Directional,
we did our formal interview with Brendan over the phone
from Laura's office at Northwestern University got Directional Lavolt. Hello,
Hey Brendon, Hi Brendon. It seems like only yesterday that
(09:53):
I saw you, because it was only yesterday, and it
was great to meet you. You know, Laura and I
had a long ride back to Chicago, and obviously we
talked about you a lot and things that we are
hoping to do to make a difference for you and
with you, I mean, well, to wait for the announcement
(10:15):
to go by, you went through an ordeal that even
those of us that have seen the show and have
seen on video parts of what happened, obviously we couldn't
see the whole thing, but none of us can understand
what it would be like to be in your shoes,
you know, to be in this impossible situation of being
(10:36):
a really a child at sixteen. You're still a child,
You're not a grown man, and to be going to
this interrogation where you have grown men who are interrogating
you for days, without a parent, without a lawyer, without
anyone to help you. I mean, were you scared or
were you just thought maybe if you just told the truth,
(10:58):
everything would be fine. Was your thought process at that point? Well,
I just wanted it all over with, so I said
whatever they wanted to hear. You know, most people grow
up as I did, with believing that the law enforcement
are out to help us, right, there are people you
call when you need help. Did you have that same
idea when you went in there? Yeah, I thought maybe
(11:22):
anything I can do to help them, you know I would.
So was there a point when you were in that
horrible room where you started to worry about the outcome,
or that you thought that these men may have been
not as well intentioned as you originally thought. Yeah. When
(11:43):
they started saying that that I wasn't telling the truth
and that that my story didn't fit the facts that
they had, that's when I started getting worried. There's a
very good reason your story didn't fit the fact, because
you didn't know the fact. Yeah, so, Brandon, you remember
there was a time when the interrogators left the room
(12:06):
for a few minutes and your mom came back into
the room. Yeah, beautiful. Yeah, did you huh not really? Well?
Do you need not? Really? That's huh what do you
(12:35):
mean by that? So? Was that the first time you
had seen your mom since they had started interrogating you? Yeah,
it is okay. So what was it like to see
her after being alone with those interrogators for such a
long time? I felt that I could be safe and
I could tell her the truth. You know that they
got into my head, They got me to say whatever
(12:59):
they on it. Do you think either before, during, or
after that, the detectives conducting that interrogation knew or realized
(13:19):
that he was actually innocent? You know, it's a It's
a very good question, and it's something I've asked myself
right over and over again. Um, this is just my opinion.
But I think that they we're worried that something had
gone wrong. Brendan's already been in the box for about
three and a half hours. He's adopted their their theories
(13:40):
that he committed rape and murder and the whole thing,
and the story is over, it's done, it's locked, and
they let her into the room and the cameras are
still rolling in the room, right and they leave the
two of them alone. You know, it's my theory that
they were outside watching this all unclosed circuit camera, hoping
that Brendan was going to make more admissions to his mother. Instead,
he recame ants one of the clearest recantations I've ever heard, Right,
(14:03):
Brendan using his own words, his own ability to express himself,
to tell his mom what he had just been through.
They got to my head. And at that moment, the
officers come barging back through that door into the interrogation room,
and Brendon doesn't say another word. Oh yeah, I'm getting
(14:27):
the chills. I mean, as a parent, it's just so heartbreaking.
And look, I always say there are a lot of
very good people in our criminal justice system, but the
ones who do the types of things that were done
to Brandon. I mean, there's a lot of villains in
this story, right, some unbelievable characters in this story. Yeah,
And so the system that was designed in theory to
(14:48):
protect the innocent in this case, to protect Brendan, failed
at every level. I mean, starting in the interrogation room,
that's right, starting with the fact that they targeted him
in the first place. And I don't really understand, I
mean I have at the in my own head about
why they may have done that. And maybe we'll never know,
but it seems like to me they wanted to build
a stronger case against Stephen, no doubt about it, and
(15:08):
so they went for the weakest LINKA knew that small community,
they knew that Brendan was a simple person. Well, that's right,
And you know, one of the things about Brendan, of course,
he's got disabilities. Everybody knows that. But his disabilities in
particular are clustered around speech, the way he speaks, the
way he hears language, why he processes words, and the
way he uses his own words. Right, so you know,
(15:31):
this is not a person who can sort of weave
sophisticated stories or lies or things like that. And of
course these are disabilities that are at the center of
an interrogation, right, the sort of sophisticated level of conversation
talking about you know, what could happen to him if
he if he didn't confess because there was a threat
in this case, what would happen to him if he
didn't start adopting the story that was being fed to him.
(15:52):
What was going to happen On the other hand, if
he if he did agree to go along with the story.
You know, this is a really hard situation for someone
like brendan sixteen special education student in Wisconsin public schools,
hard situation for him to navigate. He did the best
he could for as long as he could, for as
long as he could. Four times, over forty eight hours,
these officers questioned him, and it should have been a
(16:14):
first round knockout. Oh my god, he held up as
long as he could. We've been investigating a lot, so
it is. We already know what happened. To be a
lot easier on you if you live on it, that's
going to be wrong. I'm your friends, really unfair place,
honest person. I get a better deal lot of that.
(16:35):
You're gonna believe that. I don't believe in. You can't.
You can't make any problems. But we'll stand behind you.
And your mom said to be honest with she's behind you.
Know what happened. She thinks you don't want to more
and you're more corner. We already know what happened. I'll
tell us exactly. What would you tell people when they're
(16:57):
sitting in that jury box and there listening to incredible
testimony videotapes, someone going yeah, I did it? Yeah, So
what should people because some confessions are true. Of course,
some confessions are true. Those are the ones we want, right,
it's you know, we got to screen out the false confessions. Okay,
So the big message, right, A confession is just a
(17:18):
piece of evidence, like any other piece of evidence. Right,
Sometimes it can be misleading, and you question it and
you examine it in the same way that you'd ask
you know, critical questions, intelligent questions about any other piece
of evidence. Right, Can I trust what this person is saying?
So when you see a confession like Brendan Dacy's, where
somebody is getting the facts of the crime wrong unless
(17:42):
they're being told the right answer, that's a red flag. Right.
It happens throughout Brendan's interrogation, details large and small. He
can't come up with. He's guessing, and he guesses wrong, actually,
until he gets straightened out by the officers. Not just
about how Teresa Halback was killed, but he can't decide
if for shirt was black or white. Right, he doesn't
(18:02):
know what what the right answer is because he never
saw her, That's right. He can't decide if the fire
was started at three pm or later on in the
evening after dark, right, I mean he doesn't know these things.
He's just guessing all over the place. And you see
this repeatedly throughout false confession cases, because what you have
in those cases are people who had nothing to do
with the crime trying to say something that sounds believable
(18:24):
to satisfy their interrogators. Almost everybody I've ever met says
the same thing. I am not that guy. I'm smart,
I'm capable, I'm strong, I'm not confessing to cremated and
commit Everybody thinks us, right, Well, that's for other people, right,
that's for you know, maybe mentally impaired people, that's for
children maybe. So what you have to understand is that
interrogation is a carefully orchestrated set of psychological tactics that
(18:47):
are designed to get people off their belief in their
own innocence and designed to actually make them believe that
it will help them, that it will improve their situation,
that it will benefit them to say they did these
things that the officers think. Right, these are incredibly powerful techniques,
and every single one of us has a breaking point,
(19:09):
and these techniques are designed to find it. So how
does this work? Right? So, the way this basically works
interrogation is generally a two stage process. The first half
is all about confrontation and reducing you down to hopelessness. Right,
we know you did this. I've got so much evidence
against you. No one is going to believe you when
you say you're innocent. Right, I've got three people in
(19:32):
the room next door who picked you out of a lineup.
I've got your d n A on the scene, I've
got your fingerprints on the gun. Even if none of
that is true. By the way, that's perfectly legal for
police to lie. That's right. Not the UK, that's right,
but here it's perfectly legal for the police to lie
during interrogations. So they bring you down to hopelessness. Right,
I'm not gonna listen to you say you're innocent. You're
just making it worse off for yourself. No one's gonna
(19:54):
believe you. You're caught, you're trapped, you're screwed, You've got nothing.
And and when you reach that point of hopelessness, that's
when they offer you and out right a life raft confession.
It's going to help you. If you confess, we'll go
easy on you. You know, I'll go talk to the judge. Right,
(20:17):
I'll see what I can do for you. You, things
are going to be so much better for you. You've
got a whole life to live in front of you.
You're just a kid. People are going to understand that
over and over, but I need to hear the story
from you. Right. People are going to understand that you
deserve help if you cooperate. That's how it works, right.
These techniques are incredibly good at getting true confessions, but
(20:39):
they're so potent that they also get false confessions. And
this actually we're sitting here in Chicago, which is where
this was originated, right, the read technique read technique actually
even better than that. It's originated here out of the
work of a professor at Northwestern Law School back in
the nineties. Right. So, before these that's right, before these
psychological techniques were developed, interrogations were physical, right the third degree.
(21:03):
People were beaten or hung out of windows. Right that,
this is how it was done. And then the forties,
these people who at the time were thought of as
progressive reformers come along and say, you know what, let's
stop physically abusing people. Let's do the psychological techniques instead.
Those techniques that were developed here at Northwestern here in Chicago,
back in the nineties are still being used today talk
(21:26):
about outdated, even though the DNA revolution, which has been
in full swing now for twenty five years, has proven
time and again that these outdated techniques are far too
capable of coercing false confessions. The crazy thing is correct
me if I'm wrong, you're the lawyer in this equation.
But had Brendan said what I advised people listening to
(21:50):
the show or anybody who asked me anywhere, if you're
picked up for a crime that you can't commit, and
you're brought to the stage, and you're placed in this situation, right,
and you see to yourself, well, I don't want to
end up like Brendon, What do you do? I want
a lawyer, that's what you say, right. I want a
(22:12):
lawyer that stops the interrogation, or it should stop the interrogation.
That's your constitutional right to say that. What's interesting, of course,
you know the Miranda rights are read usually at the
beginning of interrogations of people wave their Miranda rights. So
I mean a huge number of people do, right. We
think of these as these important safeguards, and everybody's out
there asserting their rights to lawyers, and they're right. To
(22:33):
be silent and all the you know, everybody waves these rights.
And you know, we've all been in that situation right
where you get pulled over and you think you can
talk your way out of it. People wave these rights.
They don't understand how these rights can help them, especially kids. Right.
What does it mean to a kid? What does it
mean to Brendan Dacy that he can have a lawyer
in the room, that his admissions will be used against
him in court. He doesn't know what a lawyer does.
He doesn't understand the ways in which a lawyer could
(22:55):
help him or improve his situation or stop this from
happening to him. But yeah, huge numbers of people wave
those rights. And it's actually the numbers are even greater
when we're talking about innocent people, right, because you go home, right,
nothing to hide. Of course, I'll talk to you, right.
And you may also be sitting there thinking, well, if
it's going to take a long time for lawer to
get here, wait, I have things to do. Let me
(23:17):
just clear this up. No problem, I'll be out of here. No,
we're begging you. This is Jason and Laura personally begging you.
You're in that situation. There's only four words you need.
I want a lawyer. Part of the process that landed
Brendon in this situation, which was his own team. Can
(23:38):
you tell us what that was like? I mean being
represented by this guide. Um. When I first met him,
I knew that he didn't have my best interest in
in mind because he was always trying to get me
to take a plea deal or something. So you knew
right away. Yeah, Brendon, that a lot of credit you
(24:00):
because you know, many people might not have picked up
on that so quickly, because people go into that situation
they think, well, this is my lawyer is going to
be protecting me and defending me. Um. Yeah, so you
knew right away. But then as things progressed, I mean,
did you feel betrayed or did you feel hopeful that
maybe he was going to turn it around and actually
(24:20):
do his job? No, especially since that when I saw
him on TV with Nancy Drace, you know, and he's
more or less tolder that he believes that I'm guilty. Wow. Yeah,
there's a lot of things wrong with that whole scenario.
I mean, did you mentioned that named Nancy Grayson, like
(24:41):
you know, my skin crawls, um, and that Yeah, the
fact that he went on there with her is horrible.
And then you had this investigator who was supposed to
be helping you, and can you talk about that a
little bit? What do you want to know? Well, when
he was asking you to drop picture and all these
other things, and he was sort of badgering you, like Brendan,
(25:04):
you did this? What about this investigator? At first I
thought maybe he would try to help me, you know,
but then when he was trying to get me to
more or let's give another confession, you know, I knew
right then and there that he wasn't at my side either.
So basically, you had your family and and that was
(25:25):
pretty much it. But they're not lawyers and they're not investigators.
They're just just regular people. Right. Yeah, how did being
represented or misrepresented by lenn and the things that he did,
How did that make you feel? It made me feel
betrayed and that I couldn't really trust lawyers either, But
(25:45):
now I can't. What an insane set of twists and turns. Yeah,
we've represented Brendon Dascy through the state court appeal system
where that the state courts in Wisconsin. We're not particular
really bothered by what they saw on that interrogation video,
but we we sort of expected that, and then we
took his case, As people who watched Making a Murderer
(26:08):
will remember, we took his case to the federal court system.
Right with this basically works as you can go to
federal court and you can say, hey, federal court, will
you review the way in which the Wisconsin state courts
protected Brendan's rights. So that's what we did. We went
to the federal courts. We filed what's called a petition
for a wit of habeas corpus, asking the federal court
to take a look at how the state courts handled
(26:29):
Brendan's case. But but there is a trick here. Okay,
So let's say you go into federal courts and you
proved to them beyond the shadow of a doubt, right
that the state court was wrong in how it handled
Brendan's case, you lose. In order to win in federal court,
(26:50):
you have to prove not only that the state court
was wrong in how it handled Brendan's case, but that
it was so unreasonably wrong that no other judge in
America could possibly have ruled the same way. Right, that's
literally the legal standard thanks to the Anti Terrorism and
(27:10):
Effective Death Penalty Act signed into law in nine, which
keeps you know a lot of innocent prisoners like Brendan
Dacy from accessing this kind of relief in the federal courts.
So that's the needle that you have to thread in
federal court. So we filed our petition, you know, we
we made these arguments, yes, this is that's not just wrong,
it's it's unreasonably wrong. No one else would rule this way.
(27:32):
And we sat and waited months and months and months
for a decision, and we got our decision. You know,
we'd we'd won after years of representing Brendan, we'd won
in the federal district court, you know, which was a
moment of enormous joy, as you can imagine. But we knew,
because we've pushed the boulder up the hill a lot
of times before, we knew that that was just round one,
(27:53):
that the state had every right to appeal, that it
was going to appeal this case. And it did. That's right,
that's right, um. And so when we found out that
they were going to appeal, we said, you know what,
that is your right. We can't stop you from doing that,
but we want Brendan out right, we want him home.
This is right around Thanksgiving. Um, we want him home
for the holidays while you guys do your thing. So
(28:13):
we asked the court to release Brendan during the appeals
and you know, we made all of our arguments. Here's
where he's going to go live. He's going to be
in a protected environment. We have a social worker on
the space, you know, working on the case, identifying resources
supports for him. Outside the court said okay, yeah, let's
let Brendon go home. Right, He's not a danger to
this community. I believe in him. I can see he's
(28:36):
it's gonna be fine, So let's release him. And we
had an order directing the State of Wisconsin to release
Brendon Dancy and came within about twelve hours of getting
Brendan out before the State of Wisconsin asked the appeals
court to block that order and they did. So, you know, okay, um,
(29:01):
we go forward with the appeal. The state files it's briefed,
we file our briefs, We argue it out in court
before the appeals court, the federal appeals courts, and again, right,
we're trying to thread the eye of the needle here
we wait and wait and wait for our verdict, for
our decision, and we won again right, two to one.
If this is in front of three judges, we'd one
two to one, which is another moment of great joy.
(29:25):
Two to one, I'll take it. Except please notice that
as we studied this decision was two to one decision,
there was suddenly another judge in America who would have
ruled to keep Brendan Dacy still in prison. Right. And
the more we read that dissenting judge's opinion, we realized
(29:48):
that it read like an open invitation for the state
of Wisconsin to try this very rare legal maneuver rehearing
on bonk, where you throw out the appeal and redo
it in front of the full court. And that's exactly
what they did. We argued that case and lost by
a single vote, four to three. Steve and I are
(30:12):
not not done fighting for Brendan, and the world isn't either,
and the Wisconsin Nights aren't either. Right, So today we
have filed a petition with the Governor of Wisconsin asking
that he grant Brendan clemency, that he released Brendan Dacy
from prison. It's the only person in the world with
(30:35):
the power to do that, Governor Tony Evers. We hear
so much from people in state, out of state, right,
people from all over all four corners of Wisconsin, Madison, Milwaukee,
but up in Superior, up in Green Bay, out in
Eau Claire, right, Lacrosse. I get these messages constantly from
people who who just think it's time for Brendan to
come home. You know, it's past time, and we know where.
(30:58):
We're honored to be in a position where we can
hopefully show the governor it's the right time to do this. Yes,
And the good news is that by all accounts, this
governor is a reasonable man. He's had experience. Um, he's
visited a juvenile detention facilities one of the first things
he did after That's right, he did. And he comes
from the education system. You know, he was the head
of the Wisconsin Board of Education before he assumed the
(31:20):
governor's office. So this is somebody who understands. You know,
Brendan was a tenth grader in the public school special
education system. Right, That's who he was. In many ways,
it's still who he is Brendan. Um. You know, one
of the things I was personally so um, struck by
(31:43):
was when we spoke yesterday about your dreams for after
you get out um and what you want to do
in the world. Do you mind sort of talking about
that a little bit. I mean, like getting into making
and playing video games well and hopefully getting paid for it. Yeah.
(32:03):
We oh. I think it was Laura that asked you
if you had a superpower, what would That's right, That's
always one of my favorite questions to ask, Brendon. I
would want to have the power to heal illnesses and
diseases all over the world. And where do you think
that comes from? Like, I mean, it's a great superpower.
I'd like to have it too. But of all the things,
why do you think that one is the one that
came to your mind. Well, I just like helping people,
(32:26):
so I wanted to help other people in the world.
I mean, look, there's a lot of people that want
to help you too, and it's amazing. We talked about
yesterday how many letters you get. Do you figure you've
gotten letters from every state in the country by now,
all fifty states? It's got to be close. Uh huh.
You know, Brendan, why don't you tell them some of
the countries that people have sent you letters from Do
you remember some of the countries Singapore, England, Ireland, Iceland,
(32:53):
South America, Canada, Hawaii, New Zealand too, Yeah, you've Australia, right, Australia,
it's amazing. And also some from Wisconsin. Right. Yeah, that's great.
So there's tens of millions of people now all over
the world, as you know, who have watched Making a
Murderer have learned about your story. Do you want to
(33:14):
see the show when you get out? Are you interested?
I might eat? I don't know if I can, though, Yeah,
you made it might be hard to watch, Yeah, you know,
more or less because I lived it, So why would
I want to watch it again? Really understandable after everything
you've been through and all the twists and turns and
the freedom being sort of, you know, yanked away from
(33:37):
you twice? Really? Yeah, what was that? Like? Your bags
were packed, right, You're ready to go home, and then
they pulled the rug out from under you. I mean
I would think that would make somebody crazy. Yeah, I
was a little depressed, and on called my mom at night,
and you know, I was I was upset, you know,
and so she was she you know what she thought
(33:59):
I was going to becoming home, you know, and I
was willing to give up all my stuff, you know,
just walk out the doors with nothing, right, So you
were going to give it to some of the other
guys in there or either that or or just tell
all the person that they can keep it right, Well,
you weren't going to need it anymore. Yeah, what helps
(34:20):
you sort of get through this, Brendan? As this was
all happening to you, where did you find your strength? Uh?
Mostly having my family support me and have my back,
especially your mom, right, Yeah, today's visiting day. Might Yeah,
I'll beginning to visit from my mom tonight. It means everything,
(34:40):
you know. They have a family that loves and supports
me no matter what, and you always have my back,
you know. Yeah, And it's really as hardening to know
that so many people care and still care. And what
would you tell people that want to get involved that
have seen your story? Didn't really have any idea of
(35:00):
what goes on in our justice system, but now they do.
Is there anything particularly you could advise someone, Um, just
keep fighting for me and uh, keep showing your love
and support and then there's a lot of ways to
do that and going to you know, Innocence Project dot
(35:21):
org is a good place to start, Laura. Are there
other places people can go to learn more about this
case and follow your progress and the progress and getting
Brendan home. Absolutely, Folks can go to c w c
Y dot org. That's the Center on Wrongful Convictions of Youth.
You can learn a lot more about Brendan's case, reada's
legal papers, and follow developments as they happen. And do
(35:44):
you have social media yourself that we can tag you
in here, because we want to have people follow you
and your progress, not only on Brendan's case, but also
on all the other amazing work that you're doing. I do,
I do. I'm on Instagram and Twitter both at Laura
and I writerer. That's easy at Laura and I writer.
And now, as regular listeners of the show, No, it's
(36:06):
time for the best part of the show, closing arguments,
where I get to just kick back in my chair
turn my microphone off. First of all, thank you again
for taking the time to share your thoughts and your
perspective and your spirit with me and with our audience.
And of course thank you Laura for arranging this and
(36:28):
for being such a passionate, dedicated, obsessive justice fighter, um
and for being on the show. So Laura, first, thank
you for being here. Thanks for giving this opportunity to
let the world here who Brendon Nassis. You know, there
have been so many people out there who watched Making
a Murderer and we're moved disturbed by Brendan's story and
(36:50):
who've reached out to us to ask what they can
do to help Brendan. There's something really easy you can do.
Maybe this upcoming weekend, you find yourself the nextra ten
and ates the time, think about sending him a letter. Right.
These letters don't have to be long, they don't have
to be powerful, but just tell him, you know, keep
(37:11):
your head high. I believe in you. Right, we're fighting
for you. It'll happen for you. These letters are such
a small gesture on the part of every one of us,
but they sustain him, right. They give him hope every day,
(37:32):
and that gives us the hope we need to keep
on fighting. So find his address on the Wisconsin Department
of Corrections website. He's in the Oshkosh Correctional Institution. Reach
out to him, let him know he's got friends all
over the world who believe in him. If you want
to get involved in other ways, you can do that.
(37:52):
You can educate yourself. There are a lot of other books, films,
TV shows about wrongful conviction. Right, Brendon is not the
only one. Get out there. Watch when they see us, Right,
Watch the Paradise Last series about the West Memphis three
or West of Memphis. Watch Murder on a Sunday morning, Right,
watch the confession tapes. You can see incredible shows, read
(38:15):
incredible books about this happening over and over, some of
which we've mentioned today, and you can get out there.
Of course, you can support organizations like the Center on
Wrongful Convictions or the Innocence Project or a lot of
other incredible organizations that do this work. But most importantly, right,
don't stop saying Brendan Dacy's name. Get out there on
social media, remember him, Keep insisting that the people with
(38:39):
power in the system do justice for Brendan. Write letters
to the governor of Wisconsin. Tell him what you see
when you see Brandon on TV. Tell him what you
hear when you hear Brendon on a podcast like this,
especially if you live in Wisconsin. Tell him you want
Brendan home. That's the difference that you can make. It's
(39:01):
a huge difference. We rely on people like you to
light the way, to show the path for doing the
right thing here. So thank you to everybody who's written
to Brendon. Keep doing it, keep showing your support. Let's
get him home together and Brendan, Um, thank you again
for you know, letting me come see you and for
(39:22):
spending time on the air with us today. Um, and
now I get to leave it open for you to
say whatever you want as we close the show. UM,
I don't know what to say. UM. I love Pokemon
and my favorite Pokemon is Mew. But there's a new
(39:47):
one coming out called l Creamy that I really like.
And uh, hopefully I get to see some of the
more new ones coming out pretty soon. Don't forget to
(40:22):
give us a fantastic review wherever you get your podcasts,
it really helps. And I'm a proud donor to the
Innocence Project and I really hope you'll join me in
supporting this very important cause and helping to prevent future
wrongful convictions. Go to Innocence Project dot org to learn
how to donate and get involved. I'd like to thank
our production team Connor Hall and Kevin Wardis. The music
(40:44):
on the show is by three time OSCAR nominated composer
Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on Instagram at
brown Ful Conviction and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast.
Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flam is a production Lava for
Good Podcasts in association with Signal Company Number one
Hosts And Creators
Lauren Bright Pacheco
Maggie Freleng
Jason Flom
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