May 20, 2020 • 37 mins
In the fall of 1998, Julius Jones had the whole world ahead of him. He was a freshman who planned to study engineering and was attending the University of Oklahoma on an academic scholarship. The following summer, just three days after his 19th birthday, Julius was awakened and dragged out of bed, barefoot and shirtless, and taken into police custody as a murder suspect. In 2002, he was convicted of killing a prominent local businessman – this after eyewitness testimony that should have excluded the young man as a suspect, as well as overt racial bias both in the news media and in the jury box.
Julius Jones is facing execution as early as the fall of 2020.
Special guests Kim Kardashian West along with Julius’ current attorney, Dale Baich and his mother and sister, Madeline and Antoinette Jones, join Jason Flom to discuss Julius’ case and the race for the State of Oklahoma to grant him clemency before it’s too late.
Learn more and get involved at: https://www.justiceforjuliusjones.com/
https://www.change.org/p/julius-jones-is-innocent-don-t-let-him-be-executed-by-the-state-of-oklahoma
https://www.wrongfulconvictionpodcast.com/with-jason-flom
Wrongful Conviction is a production of Lava for Good™ Podcasts in association with Signal Co. No1.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
On July and Edmund, Oklahoma, business owner Paul Howell was
returning to his parents home with his sister and two
daughters after shopping for school supplies. Upon exiting the vehicle,
he was shot twice and killed for his GMC suburban.
Paul's sister would describe the shooter as an African American
male wearing a red band down across his face and
(00:22):
a stocking cap with up to an inch of hair
sticking out from the bottom. Investigators would tap confidential informants
in the stolen car trade that would deflect from themselves
and point police in the direction of Chris Jordan and
Julius Jones. Chris Jordan's would go on to give a
confession that was riddled with inconsistencies, blaming Julius Jones for
(00:44):
the murder, but on the night of July, Julius was
at home with his family. The following night, July twenty nine,
Chris Jordan slept at the Jones home, and that's when
he planted the murder weapon in a second story crawl space,
something he admitted both to the police and to two
jailhouse informants. On July. Police would find the gun exactly
(01:08):
where Chris Jordan had told him to look and emerge
with it wrapped in a red Bandanna. Julius's defense at
trial failed to present any evidence, including a photo taken
by police after a traffic stop just ten days earlier,
that would have ruled him out as a potential match
to the only eyewitnesses description. Chris Jordan, on the other hand,
(01:28):
received leniency for testifying against Julius, and he's been out
of prison since two thousand fourteen. Julius, meanwhile, remains on
death row for a crime for which Chris Jordan's has
bragged about framing him. On this episode, we team up
with one of Julius's fiercest advocates, Kim Kardashian West, as
we speak with his attorney Dale Bache, and his mother
(01:51):
and sister, Madeline and Antoinette Jones. This Its Wrongful Conviction
with Jason Flow. Today, we're here to talk about Julius Jones,
(02:13):
who has been on death row in Oklahoma for over
twenty years for a crime he didn't commit. And I'd
like to welcome a very special guest. You'll recognize her name,
and you'll recognize her from having been on this podcast before.
Kim Kardashian West. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with Jason
flam Hi. Thank you for having me again. I can't
(02:33):
overstate the importance of you being here today with us, Kim,
because if we don't take every possible action that we can,
and I mean the audience too, Julius will be executed
in Oklahoma as early as this fall for a crime
we know he didn't commit. Kim, can you tell us
when you first heard about this case? Yeah, I first
(02:53):
started to receive letters. They were from a woman named
Terry McCarthy, probably thirty letters from her, and she was
kind of reiterating the same information about Julius and mentioned
the documentary with Viola Davis. So I thought, I have
to look into this. And I say this all the
(03:15):
time because we have such an amazing group of people
between you and Scott bud Nick, my attorneys and everyone.
When all of the big players really feel the same
way about a case, I know that we have to
be loud. And I feel in my soul that we
are early enough because an execution date for Julius hasn't
(03:39):
been set yet that I just I feel like now
is the time where we all just have to come
together and really make a difference in his life. What
about this particular case, about his case makes you so
passionate And what sticks out to you the most about Julius' case?
There's a few things. Being a young, honorable student athlete,
(04:01):
you have your whole life ahead of you. Everyone around
always says what an amazing person he is, that grew
up with him, his coaches, and then to see getting
caught up with the wrong group of people and getting
set up the way he was just really rubbed me
(04:22):
the wrong way. That someone's life, a young kid's life
was just taken away. It always goes back to me
thinking about what if that was my son? What would
I do if my son got set up like this?
So we gotta fight for this guy. We got to
help him get his life back. The next voice you
(04:45):
here is going to be the voice of Dale Bache,
an assistant federal public defender who is definitely doing his
part to help to unravel this nightmare. When did you
get involved with it? In two thousand and sixteen, our
office was appointed to represent Julius in clemency proceedings. Now,
(05:08):
can you walk us through the case? Sure? On July,
according to Chris Jordan's, who is the co defendant in
this case. He and Julius were driving around looking for
a suburban to jack. They spotted a car, followed it
(05:29):
into a neighborhood, and according to Chris Jordan's, Julius jumped
out of the car when the car pulled into the
driveway and shot Paul Howell. When Chris Jordan was taken
into custody, that's what he told the police, and they
immediately focused on Julius tunnel vision set in. But what
(05:52):
we now know is Chris made seven different statements to
the police, and those statements were inconsistent, and at one
point the police say, what you're telling us, it's not
adding up. We don't have this backwards, do we. So
the police knew that there were problems with what Chris
(06:16):
was telling them, but the police continue to focus on Julius.
Something really struck me as I was reading about this case,
which was that when the gun was hidden in julius house,
obviously very damning for anyone to have the murder weapon
found in their home. Well, we know that when Chris
(06:36):
was interviewed by the police, he was asked, so you
hid the murder weapon and he responded, yeah. Chris also
told one of the men that he spoke to while
in custody in the county jail that he wrapped the
gun used to commit the murder and hid it in
Julius's parents house. We understand that Chris was sitting in
(07:02):
a police car outside of Julius's house after the police
stormed the home and then went looking for the gun
and immediately went to where we think Chris told them
the gun would be located. We also know that there
were other people involved, namely Kermit Lotty and Ladell King,
(07:26):
that had a lot to gain by pointing in julius
direction and away from themselves. Can you tell us about
Kermit and Lidell. Kermit Lotti was a man who ran
a chop shop on the south side of Oklahoma City,
and it was a well known establishment in the trade
of stealing cars. Liddel King was a close confidante of
(07:51):
Kermits and was known for his involvement in that trade.
Adel King was also a confidential informant, and in exchange
for providing information to the police, he would be allowed
to carry on with some of his illegal activities. At
the time of Julius's trial. Liddell King was facing bogus
(08:14):
check charges and as an habitual offender, he was looking
to twenty years, and in exchange for his testimony, he
got ten years probation. Liddell was one of the guys
that pointed the finger at Julius. So this paints a
pretty strong picture of a sort of a unit. Right.
(08:36):
You had Chris Jordan's who was a troubled kid. You
had these two other known criminals, particularly ensconced in the
stolen car business, and then you have a car that
gets stolen in a violent brobbery tragic death. But we
know a number of things that would make anyone go wait.
(08:57):
I mean, for instance, we know that number of shell
casing stounded at the scene was something that was known
and volunteered by Chris and his interrogation before the police
even asked or suggested it. We know that the witnesses
were incentivized. We know that the description matches someone very
much like Chris Jordan's who doesn't look like Julius. Megan Toby, Mr.
(09:19):
Howell's sister was in the car with him when he
pulled into the driveway, and she testified that she saw
the person who shot her brother, and she described him
as African American, wearing a red bandana across his face,
wearing a black stocking cap, and half an inch of
(09:40):
hair hanging out from under the cap. What's critical about
that is Julius wore his hair close crop, very short.
Chris Jordan's, on the other hand, wore his hair in braids.
And how do we know that Julius's hair was was short.
Ten days prior to Mr Howell's murder, Julius got picked
(10:03):
up on a traffic stop and had a mug shot taken,
So there's an official government photo of Julius with short hair,
and that photograph was never shown to the jury at trial.
We also know that Julius was at home with his
family at the time Mr Howell was shot and killed,
(10:25):
and later that evening, Chris and Julius were supposed to
drive down to Norman, Oklahoma, which is about twenty minutes
south of Oklahoma City. Julius was at home getting a
little agitated because Chris said he would be there early
in the evening and Kristen did show up until close
(10:46):
to midnight. We also have with us julius sister Antoinette,
and his mother Madeleine now here. You have a son
who is excelling in so many ways, co captain of
three different sports, tames in high school, academic scholarship at
Oklahoma University, great looking young man with his whole life
(11:08):
laid out in front of him, and then everything it
takes a terrible, terrible turn. Well, first of all, it's
been a twenty plus year shock, and uh, I really
can't often find the words to explain what it's been like.
We just got blindsided. It sure seems like you went
(11:32):
from the American dream to the American nightmare. And let's
go to that faithful night July. Can you tell us
what was happening that night and why and how you
know that Julius could not possibly have been there. That
was a kind of a busy day for us, and
I was trying to do Antoinette's hair. I was fixing
(11:54):
uh spaghetti, But Julius was there all day long. They
played monopoly. There were a few of us play monopoly.
Julius was there for a monopoly and from my oldest
brother Antonio and another young man that was over there,
they got mad at me because I gave Jesus all
my money and property I had to do that because
(12:16):
I had to get my hair done. So it's specific
things like that, Like I know that it was around
Jesus birthday. Jesus friend had a big chocolate chill cookie
that she gave to him for his birthday. Tony kept
going in and out of the refrigerator to take pieces
of the cookie. And later on that day, my brother
Antonio had to go to work. My mother went to
(12:37):
go take him to work. Julius looks in refrigerator and
he's like, oh my goodness. He was like, who ate
my cooking? And I kid you not. He waited at
the back door in the kitchen, pacing back and forth,
waiting for mom to come home, so he could tell
that somebody ate his cookie. So I kind of was like, well,
you know, I was like, Tony, your cookie, and so
I'll never forget that that. So it doesn't seem like
(12:57):
someone who just murdered somebody would be particularly concerned over
how much of a cookie was left in the refrigerator
or not. Um. I mean, that's just one of many
many things, you know. So July he's home with you.
It sounds like sort of a typical family night. But
then things changed dramatically in the next thirty six hours,
right the twenty nine, Chris is at your home? Right, Um,
(13:22):
I know that he spent the night that night, which
is when we believe that he had the opportunity to
plant the gun. Do you recall Chris being at your
house that night? Thursday? It was trash day and uh,
Jews usually take some trash outain sometimes we sit and
talk on the walkway. But Chris was kind of like
(13:44):
a shadow was there and when that were you there
that night? Do you remember if Chris was at the house.
I know Chris was there because I heard him come
upstairs and going to the room that was Julius. The
very next day, the police would surround the Jones house.
Julia's family was purple walked out of their own home,
and Chris Jordan would be in a police car out
front to tell them exactly what the murder weapon was hidden.
(14:07):
Julius was appointed a good attorney, Mr Barry Albert, who
was known for his skill and unorthodox but effective courtroom style.
But Mr Albert, I can't believe this would die. He
died shortly before the trial, leaving his new public defenders
woefully unprepared. So much so that they didn't put on
any defense whatsoever. When it came time for Julius to
(14:32):
present his case, the lawyers simply stood up and said
the defense rests. The lawyers did not put on testimony
from the family who would have presented an alibi. The
lawyers did not investigate and present evidence from two people
who were in jail who didn't know each other and
(14:55):
independently came forward and said that Chris Jordan's told told
them that he said Julius up. He told one of
the men that he planted the weapon in Julius's house,
and he told both of the men that he would
be getting out of prison after serving a fifteen year
sentence in exchange for his testimony against Julius. The inconsistent
(15:19):
statements that Chris made to the police during his interrogation
were never explored by the defense when they had an
opportunity to cross examine Chris. It's an inexplicable lapse. In fact,
it's totally understandable why the jury would have voted to convict.
They didn't have any information to work with except what
(15:41):
the state was saying. What was it like, uh, seeing
your your baby going through this trial? Well, at the beginning,
I was very confident because the attorney that we had, Mr.
He was very thorough and he talked to us and
he said, I just need to get Chris on the stand.
(16:02):
Mr Abbot had a plan before he passed away. The
opponent atonis they wanted more time, and then after he
passed away, then they wanted to immediately started with trial
and everything. And we were there every day. But one
of the excuses after Mr Abbart had passed, they said
(16:23):
the reason they didn't call us understanding after they had
sentenced Julius because they didn't know we were there. It
was just a mockery. I was devastated. I was devastated
when I heard the word we rest. I think I
was a little older than thirteen, and I didn't understand
how you couldn't put people understand to help my brother's defense.
(16:44):
There was no defense there. And that I mean that,
just that that pisces me out. You know, Kim, I
just try to picture you know you you really spoke
clearly about this before. But putting someone we love or yourself,
(17:04):
if you're in the audience, put yourself in the shoes
of a guy who's at trial for his life literally
and his lawyers are doing absolutely nothing to help him.
How can that be? How could that stand? And by
the way, is that why you're taking the bar. I'm
taking it just because I want to know more. If
I don't know a lot about the system and how
(17:26):
the law actually works, then I feel like I can't
help as many people. I know we can get a
lot done, but I feel like I could on a
different level. So that's why I am taking it. But
it infuriates me to hear when cases when there's ineffective counsel.
It just makes me so mad, especially if it's an
(17:47):
appointed attorney, that you think that if you don't have
the money to afford an attorney and so you're getting
a point in one, that they're going to be ineffective
and not help but actually hurt your case so much.
I mean, I don't know how I can live with
myself if I was an attorney like that. You know,
for me, any injustice troubles me. But this one sticks
(18:09):
in my mind because there he is on death row
and basically the closest thing we have to hell on earth.
And you know, I wanted to ask you about that.
How do you feel about the death penalty in general.
You know what, I'm just not for the death penalty
no matter what. You know. Obviously there are people that
have done really horrific things and definitely deserve to be
(18:32):
behind bars. But I don't believe in taking a life.
But I think, especially with Julius's case, he just didn't
get a fair trial, bottom line. So I think that
especially if there is even a chance that someone is
innocent and their life would be taken, We've just seen
it happen too many times for this to still be
(18:54):
happening on the I can't support it. For people who
are listening, now, what could you say to them when
they end up serving on a jury which, you know,
let's face it, all of us at some point get
one of those jury duty notices and it's you look
(19:14):
at it and you go and no, now, I gotta
disrupt my life. It's literally my dream to do that.
I hope that when I get like jury duty, that
it's some case that I can make a difference in.
No one wants to get the wrong person because it
also prevents us from getting the right person. So and
in this case, I mean, it's a tragedy. What happened
(19:34):
to this family that they lost this guy who by
all accounts was a good guy, and we want justice
for him too. But there is no justice when you
have the wrong person in prison. I think you have
to be extremely sensitive with the families that are involved here.
My compassion for helping someone and I'm not just speaking
(19:56):
about Julius, it can be anyone never takes away my
empathy for the family of the victim, and ultimately we
all have the same goal. Is like what you just
said is making sure that the right person is put
behind bars and that the innocent person is able to
(20:16):
be freed from this nightmare that they're in. I mean,
as we've heard at Julius's trial, the defense didn't even
give the jury much information to work with. But believe
it or not, it gets even worse. During the trial
in the jury room, one of the jurors said out loud,
why are we wasting our time here? We ought to
(20:37):
just take that end out back and bury um outside
the jail, and one of the jurors approached a bailiff
and told him what she heard and asked to talk
to the judge on the record. The judge sort of
dismissed it as well, he could have been talking about
(20:59):
osam bin Laden. We don't know who the juror was
talking about. Take the N word out of the equation.
You still have a juror who made up his mind
and was going to convict Julius and sentence him to death.
Throw the N word in there, and the racism is
(21:22):
just oozing from this case. We also know that between
and two thousand and twelve, there was a study conducted
in Oklahoma on race and the death penalty. The authors
concluded that an African American male who is convicted of
(21:44):
killing a white male is three times more likely to
get the death penalty in Oklahoma. So at trial, yet
racism incentivized lying witnesses and no defense whatsoever. So Dale,
what you took on this case, You guys had your
work cut out for you, to say the least. But
(22:05):
there was a new law in place in Oklahoma that
allowed you to do DNA testing and post conviction. So
he tested the red bandanna right it was sitting in
in evidence for almost twenty years. Dr Shapiro, he used
to be with the Department of Forensic Biology at the
Medical Examiner's Office in New York City, reviewed the DNA
(22:29):
report that was produced by Bodhi Sellmark and came to
some conclusions. So one of the things that Megan Toby,
the victim's sister, testified to was that the shooter yelled
something at her is she was running away, And we
identified a stain on the bandanna, and we wanted to
(22:54):
check if that stain was saliva, and it came back
negative is to saliva. So we don't even know if
that bandanna that was found in Julius's attic was the
same bandanna that the assailant war because there's not the
(23:15):
saliva staying on it that should be there, because the
assailant yelled, don't forget this was July and Oklahoma, right,
So you do have to suspend a lot of this
belief to come up with the conclusion that someone Julius
or anyone is going to be in an extremely high
pressure situation on a very hot day and not sweat
(23:39):
or breathe into the bandanna that they're supposedly wearing on
their face. We don't know. We'll never know whether the
gun was wrapped in the bandanna or whether the gun
was taken and placed in the bandanna by the authorities
when they were taking it out, one would hope they
would put it in an evidence bag instead. But the
state made a big deal about the fact that there
were several different people's DNA on this bandanna, and that
(24:03):
one of the people seems to be somewhat consistent with Julius.
Can you elaborate on what that really means, because some
people would look at that and go, oh, wait a minute,
and you know, if I guess I got the right
guy after all? Right, case closed? Um, But the testing
indicates that the d n A was degraded and was
(24:26):
defined as trace DNA, which suggests that the d NA
could have been transferred to the item. So the bandana
is found in Julius's house, it's handled by the police,
it's in his bedroom. It's very possible that any DNA
(24:49):
on there that could be consistent with Julius could come
about as a result of the transfer of the d
n A. So here's what we're faced with. It seems
to me and correct me if I'm wrong on any
of these fronts. Julius didn't match the eyewitness description. His
(25:09):
hair was short and could never have stuck out from
a stocking cap. But Chris Jordan's absolutely could have. Chris
Jordan's gave a confession that was riddled with inconsistencies and
false as he changed his story numerous times. Chris also
admitted to planting the gun exactly where the police founded
(25:30):
in Julius's house on more than one occasion. There's no
salivary DNA on the bandanna and evidence, and it doesn't
seem to be the one that was worn across the
shooters or anyone's face anyway. And I'm leaving out other
insculpatory stuff. Forget that incompetent defense, forget the racial bias,
forget the jury, forget everything. Those facts alone would seem
(25:53):
to be enough to unravel this. And then you add
to it that the only thing connecting to it are
the words of too highly incentivized witnesses, both of whom
happened to be career criminals who were maybe an offer
they could almost count refused. I mean they were given it,
an offer that they would be able to avoid lengthy
(26:14):
prison sentences of their own in exchange for their testimony
against Julius. Does that pretty much sum it up? That's it?
And one would think that, you know, why is Julius
even in prison, let alone on death row, but that's
not how it turned out. This leads to my next question, Kim,
(26:36):
his only contact to the outside world is through letters.
Have you gotten letters directly from him or have you
corresponded with him in any way? I have, yes, you know,
just hearing what he has to say, and I mean,
what I can't understand, but I'm so grateful for is
someone in Julius's situation who could be so angry at
(27:01):
the world, and I don't I don't know how I
would act if I was in his situation. But to
see the grace that he has and to see how
he's fighting through this and won't give up, it inspires me.
So I want to fight like I We need him
to get out. I mean, just to even know that
(27:23):
because he was an athlete, to see a lot of
athletes support him and write letters on his behalf now
to send to the governor has been so amazing to see,
you know, when he was playing ball, Blake Griffin's dad
was his coach and its completely in support of Julius
and Blake Griffin wrote an amazing, heartfelt letter for the
(27:44):
governor to see in support of Julius's release. Russell Westbrook
There's been some amazing people that really want to see
him released as well, people that grew up there, people
that played their Carmelo Anthony who played in Oklahoma for
a little while. His wife is my best friend, you know.
I sent him all the facts and he wrote a
(28:05):
letter as well. It's amazing to see the support that
has come together. And I hope that everyone really pays
attention before it's too late, because we will not go
out easy on this one. So Kim, if you could
talk to the governor and you may have that opportunity,
I hope um. And we know that the governor of
Oklahoma is a guy who cares about criminal justice reform.
(28:29):
He's done some positive things for sure. So if you
could talk to him, what would you say? Yeah, I
would just first of all, love to walk him through
the facts of Julius case and explain to him what
kind of person Julius is and was before his life
was turned upside down. And I've heard he's a really
(28:53):
compassionate person and really does care about reform. And I
just hope to have that opportunity, And we're going to
be presenting him all of these letters of support soon,
and I believe that he will pay attention. I have
faith in that. It would be hard to imagine that
he and the members of the Parole Board wouldn't be
(29:16):
moved to take action here. Between the outcry and the public,
the support of prominent people, faith leaders and business leaders,
so many different people, and the facts of the case
cry out for justice. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you know,
everyone always asked me like, well, what can we do?
And I think the most important thing to do is
(29:37):
call the Governor's office and elected officials that can really
make a difference, and just be really loud, and you
should go to Justice for Julius Jones dot com first
of all, look into his case. Everything is on this website,
from the documentary The Last Offense with Viola Davis to
(29:58):
where you can sign the petition in favor of Julius,
and you can also subscribe to stay up to date
on what's going on, and it even gives you a
link to email the Parole Board. I do believe that
the Parole Board is like in favor of reform. I
believe everyone is very compassionate from what I've heard, So
(30:19):
I just urge everyone please sign the petition for Julius Jones.
If you're moved by his story, I've done it. I
believe in him so much. I believe in his innocence.
Justice for Julius Jones dot Com. We have a regular
(30:42):
feature on the show which is my favorite part of
the show, which is where I get to just kick back,
turn off my microphone, leave my headphones on and listen.
And so what we call this segment closing Arguments, and
we're going to hear from Dale ant when at and
of course Madeleine, but let's kick things off with you,
(31:04):
kim Oh. Thank you for having me on here, and
thank you for everything that you do and for showing
me the way. Seriously, I look up to you so much,
and I'm so grateful to you for sharing so many
cases with me and that we're able to hopefully open
up people's minds and hearts that might have been a
little bit closed off when it comes to reform or
(31:26):
might not understood how they could help, and then we're
giving them a platform where they can help out and
be a part of the conversation and help fight for
people that really really deserve it. So thank you, Dale,
You've done a fantastic job and I appreciate you making
the time. I know it's going to make a difference. Well,
thank you, Jason. We have a commutation application pending before
(31:51):
the Oklahoma Pardoning Parole Board. Julius is thankful for all
the support, the prayers, the letter that he has received
that is giving him strength. This case got the attention
it deserved when Viola Davis and Julius Tennan produced the
last defense that put light on this injustice and wrongful conviction.
(32:16):
What's troubling to me, and we should all be concerned
about this, is that without the last defense, no one
would be interested in this case. Julius would have been
just another African American man in prison saying he was innocent,
one of the four percent, and no one would care.
There are thousands of Julius behind bars today and people
(32:41):
should care. And we know you care, Jason, and we
appreciate that this struggle isn't over. Thank you very much.
Why don't we save mom for last, because you know
she's mom, So antoine over to you. So first I
would say, did my brother, Julius there is Jones. He
(33:02):
did not kill Paul. How my brother is a human being.
He is not a number when we consider people human
beings and not just numbers, and we really take into
account all the facts. I'm just asking them to correct
this wrong. I'm asking you to look at all of
the key points in this case. I'm asking you to
(33:23):
understand that my brother never got a fair defense. He
never got a proper defense, he never got a juror
of his peers, he never got a chance to voice
what happened to him from his side. And I'm just
asking you, as a human being to understand and take
my brother in consideration as a human being and not
(33:44):
a number. He is not a person that would take
a life. He is a person that will protect the life.
He is a person that cares about everybody's well being.
To this day, he cares. He cares more about how
everybody else is doing then how he's doing. Side. That's
who my brother is. He's a person that cares. He's
a loyal person. He is a person that loves life.
(34:08):
I never gave up, and I'm still not gonna give up.
We shall not give up. We shall not rest. Even
though the defense rest for him, we shall not rest.
Thank you, thank you, and now for the final words, Madeline.
First of all, Julius is a good person. He's very kind.
He's loving compassion, and a lot of times he will
(34:30):
hurt himself to keep from hurting someone else. And that's
the reason he's in predicament he's in now, and I
just want to say to the parlorod board that one
size does not fit all and that I would like
for him to take careful consideration concerning Julius and to
(34:54):
look at what he will be able to contribute to
society if they spare his life. We just need to
try to get things right because when justice is covered up,
it stays covered for so long, but it'll either burn
through or it will grow. And right now I feel
(35:16):
like that justice is growing because uh, it wants to
be heard and it wants to be fulfilled what it's
really meant to be just for all, not just for
some of us. And you know, freedom is worth more
than money. My biggest joy is to help my son
(35:38):
home and to be about the things that he's dreamed
and long to want to do. And I thank God
for this opportunity today to be able to express so
many things that I've held in Today. I really thank
God for you, Jason. I thank God for people like you.
(36:04):
Don't forget to give us a fantastic review. Wherever you
get your podcasts, it really helps. And I'm a proud
donor to the Innocence Project and I really hope you'll
join me in supporting this very important cause and helping
to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to Innocence Project dot
org to learn how to donate and get involved. I'd
like to thank our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wardis.
(36:27):
The music in the show is by three time OSCAR
nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on
Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast.
Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flam is a production of Lava
for Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company Number one
On July and Edmund, Oklahoma, business owner Paul Howell was
returning to his parents home with his sister and two
daughters after shopping for school supplies. Upon exiting the vehicle,
he was shot twice and killed for his GMC suburban.
Paul's sister would describe the shooter as an African American
male wearing a red band down across his face and
(00:22):
a stocking cap with up to an inch of hair
sticking out from the bottom. Investigators would tap confidential informants
in the stolen car trade that would deflect from themselves
and point police in the direction of Chris Jordan and
Julius Jones. Chris Jordan's would go on to give a
confession that was riddled with inconsistencies, blaming Julius Jones for
(00:44):
the murder, but on the night of July, Julius was
at home with his family. The following night, July twenty nine,
Chris Jordan slept at the Jones home, and that's when
he planted the murder weapon in a second story crawl space,
something he admitted both to the police and to two
jailhouse informants. On July. Police would find the gun exactly
(01:08):
where Chris Jordan had told him to look and emerge
with it wrapped in a red Bandanna. Julius's defense at
trial failed to present any evidence, including a photo taken
by police after a traffic stop just ten days earlier,
that would have ruled him out as a potential match
to the only eyewitnesses description. Chris Jordan, on the other hand,
(01:28):
received leniency for testifying against Julius, and he's been out
of prison since two thousand fourteen. Julius, meanwhile, remains on
death row for a crime for which Chris Jordan's has
bragged about framing him. On this episode, we team up
with one of Julius's fiercest advocates, Kim Kardashian West, as
we speak with his attorney Dale Bache, and his mother
(01:51):
and sister, Madeline and Antoinette Jones. This Its Wrongful Conviction
with Jason Flow. Today, we're here to talk about Julius Jones,
(02:13):
who has been on death row in Oklahoma for over
twenty years for a crime he didn't commit. And I'd
like to welcome a very special guest. You'll recognize her name,
and you'll recognize her from having been on this podcast before.
Kim Kardashian West. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with Jason
flam Hi. Thank you for having me again. I can't
(02:33):
overstate the importance of you being here today with us, Kim,
because if we don't take every possible action that we can,
and I mean the audience too, Julius will be executed
in Oklahoma as early as this fall for a crime
we know he didn't commit. Kim, can you tell us
when you first heard about this case? Yeah, I first
(02:53):
started to receive letters. They were from a woman named
Terry McCarthy, probably thirty letters from her, and she was
kind of reiterating the same information about Julius and mentioned
the documentary with Viola Davis. So I thought, I have
to look into this. And I say this all the
(03:15):
time because we have such an amazing group of people
between you and Scott bud Nick, my attorneys and everyone.
When all of the big players really feel the same
way about a case, I know that we have to
be loud. And I feel in my soul that we
are early enough because an execution date for Julius hasn't
(03:39):
been set yet that I just I feel like now
is the time where we all just have to come
together and really make a difference in his life. What
about this particular case, about his case makes you so
passionate And what sticks out to you the most about Julius' case?
There's a few things. Being a young, honorable student athlete,
(04:01):
you have your whole life ahead of you. Everyone around
always says what an amazing person he is, that grew
up with him, his coaches, and then to see getting
caught up with the wrong group of people and getting
set up the way he was just really rubbed me
(04:22):
the wrong way. That someone's life, a young kid's life
was just taken away. It always goes back to me
thinking about what if that was my son? What would
I do if my son got set up like this?
So we gotta fight for this guy. We got to
help him get his life back. The next voice you
(04:45):
here is going to be the voice of Dale Bache,
an assistant federal public defender who is definitely doing his
part to help to unravel this nightmare. When did you
get involved with it? In two thousand and sixteen, our
office was appointed to represent Julius in clemency proceedings. Now,
(05:08):
can you walk us through the case? Sure? On July,
according to Chris Jordan's, who is the co defendant in
this case. He and Julius were driving around looking for
a suburban to jack. They spotted a car, followed it
(05:29):
into a neighborhood, and according to Chris Jordan's, Julius jumped
out of the car when the car pulled into the
driveway and shot Paul Howell. When Chris Jordan was taken
into custody, that's what he told the police, and they
immediately focused on Julius tunnel vision set in. But what
(05:52):
we now know is Chris made seven different statements to
the police, and those statements were inconsistent, and at one
point the police say, what you're telling us, it's not
adding up. We don't have this backwards, do we. So
the police knew that there were problems with what Chris
(06:16):
was telling them, but the police continue to focus on Julius.
Something really struck me as I was reading about this case,
which was that when the gun was hidden in julius house,
obviously very damning for anyone to have the murder weapon
found in their home. Well, we know that when Chris
(06:36):
was interviewed by the police, he was asked, so you
hid the murder weapon and he responded, yeah. Chris also
told one of the men that he spoke to while
in custody in the county jail that he wrapped the
gun used to commit the murder and hid it in
Julius's parents house. We understand that Chris was sitting in
(07:02):
a police car outside of Julius's house after the police
stormed the home and then went looking for the gun
and immediately went to where we think Chris told them
the gun would be located. We also know that there
were other people involved, namely Kermit Lotty and Ladell King,
(07:26):
that had a lot to gain by pointing in julius
direction and away from themselves. Can you tell us about
Kermit and Lidell. Kermit Lotti was a man who ran
a chop shop on the south side of Oklahoma City,
and it was a well known establishment in the trade
of stealing cars. Liddel King was a close confidante of
(07:51):
Kermits and was known for his involvement in that trade.
Adel King was also a confidential informant, and in exchange
for providing information to the police, he would be allowed
to carry on with some of his illegal activities. At
the time of Julius's trial. Liddell King was facing bogus
(08:14):
check charges and as an habitual offender, he was looking
to twenty years, and in exchange for his testimony, he
got ten years probation. Liddell was one of the guys
that pointed the finger at Julius. So this paints a
pretty strong picture of a sort of a unit. Right.
(08:36):
You had Chris Jordan's who was a troubled kid. You
had these two other known criminals, particularly ensconced in the
stolen car business, and then you have a car that
gets stolen in a violent brobbery tragic death. But we
know a number of things that would make anyone go wait.
(08:57):
I mean, for instance, we know that number of shell
casing stounded at the scene was something that was known
and volunteered by Chris and his interrogation before the police
even asked or suggested it. We know that the witnesses
were incentivized. We know that the description matches someone very
much like Chris Jordan's who doesn't look like Julius. Megan Toby, Mr.
(09:19):
Howell's sister was in the car with him when he
pulled into the driveway, and she testified that she saw
the person who shot her brother, and she described him
as African American, wearing a red bandana across his face,
wearing a black stocking cap, and half an inch of
(09:40):
hair hanging out from under the cap. What's critical about
that is Julius wore his hair close crop, very short.
Chris Jordan's, on the other hand, wore his hair in braids.
And how do we know that Julius's hair was was short.
Ten days prior to Mr Howell's murder, Julius got picked
(10:03):
up on a traffic stop and had a mug shot taken,
So there's an official government photo of Julius with short hair,
and that photograph was never shown to the jury at trial.
We also know that Julius was at home with his
family at the time Mr Howell was shot and killed,
(10:25):
and later that evening, Chris and Julius were supposed to
drive down to Norman, Oklahoma, which is about twenty minutes
south of Oklahoma City. Julius was at home getting a
little agitated because Chris said he would be there early
in the evening and Kristen did show up until close
(10:46):
to midnight. We also have with us julius sister Antoinette,
and his mother Madeleine now here. You have a son
who is excelling in so many ways, co captain of
three different sports, tames in high school, academic scholarship at
Oklahoma University, great looking young man with his whole life
(11:08):
laid out in front of him, and then everything it
takes a terrible, terrible turn. Well, first of all, it's
been a twenty plus year shock, and uh, I really
can't often find the words to explain what it's been like.
We just got blindsided. It sure seems like you went
(11:32):
from the American dream to the American nightmare. And let's
go to that faithful night July. Can you tell us
what was happening that night and why and how you
know that Julius could not possibly have been there. That
was a kind of a busy day for us, and
I was trying to do Antoinette's hair. I was fixing
(11:54):
uh spaghetti, But Julius was there all day long. They
played monopoly. There were a few of us play monopoly.
Julius was there for a monopoly and from my oldest
brother Antonio and another young man that was over there,
they got mad at me because I gave Jesus all
my money and property I had to do that because
(12:16):
I had to get my hair done. So it's specific
things like that, Like I know that it was around
Jesus birthday. Jesus friend had a big chocolate chill cookie
that she gave to him for his birthday. Tony kept
going in and out of the refrigerator to take pieces
of the cookie. And later on that day, my brother
Antonio had to go to work. My mother went to
(12:37):
go take him to work. Julius looks in refrigerator and
he's like, oh my goodness. He was like, who ate
my cooking? And I kid you not. He waited at
the back door in the kitchen, pacing back and forth,
waiting for mom to come home, so he could tell
that somebody ate his cookie. So I kind of was like, well,
you know, I was like, Tony, your cookie, and so
I'll never forget that that. So it doesn't seem like
(12:57):
someone who just murdered somebody would be particularly concerned over
how much of a cookie was left in the refrigerator
or not. Um. I mean, that's just one of many
many things, you know. So July he's home with you.
It sounds like sort of a typical family night. But
then things changed dramatically in the next thirty six hours,
right the twenty nine, Chris is at your home? Right, Um,
(13:22):
I know that he spent the night that night, which
is when we believe that he had the opportunity to
plant the gun. Do you recall Chris being at your
house that night? Thursday? It was trash day and uh,
Jews usually take some trash outain sometimes we sit and
talk on the walkway. But Chris was kind of like
(13:44):
a shadow was there and when that were you there
that night? Do you remember if Chris was at the house.
I know Chris was there because I heard him come
upstairs and going to the room that was Julius. The
very next day, the police would surround the Jones house.
Julia's family was purple walked out of their own home,
and Chris Jordan would be in a police car out
front to tell them exactly what the murder weapon was hidden.
(14:07):
Julius was appointed a good attorney, Mr Barry Albert, who
was known for his skill and unorthodox but effective courtroom style.
But Mr Albert, I can't believe this would die. He
died shortly before the trial, leaving his new public defenders
woefully unprepared. So much so that they didn't put on
any defense whatsoever. When it came time for Julius to
(14:32):
present his case, the lawyers simply stood up and said
the defense rests. The lawyers did not put on testimony
from the family who would have presented an alibi. The
lawyers did not investigate and present evidence from two people
who were in jail who didn't know each other and
(14:55):
independently came forward and said that Chris Jordan's told told
them that he said Julius up. He told one of
the men that he planted the weapon in Julius's house,
and he told both of the men that he would
be getting out of prison after serving a fifteen year
sentence in exchange for his testimony against Julius. The inconsistent
(15:19):
statements that Chris made to the police during his interrogation
were never explored by the defense when they had an
opportunity to cross examine Chris. It's an inexplicable lapse. In fact,
it's totally understandable why the jury would have voted to convict.
They didn't have any information to work with except what
(15:41):
the state was saying. What was it like, uh, seeing
your your baby going through this trial? Well, at the beginning,
I was very confident because the attorney that we had, Mr.
He was very thorough and he talked to us and
he said, I just need to get Chris on the stand.
(16:02):
Mr Abbot had a plan before he passed away. The
opponent atonis they wanted more time, and then after he
passed away, then they wanted to immediately started with trial
and everything. And we were there every day. But one
of the excuses after Mr Abbart had passed, they said
(16:23):
the reason they didn't call us understanding after they had
sentenced Julius because they didn't know we were there. It
was just a mockery. I was devastated. I was devastated
when I heard the word we rest. I think I
was a little older than thirteen, and I didn't understand
how you couldn't put people understand to help my brother's defense.
(16:44):
There was no defense there. And that I mean that,
just that that pisces me out. You know, Kim, I
just try to picture you know you you really spoke
clearly about this before. But putting someone we love or yourself,
(17:04):
if you're in the audience, put yourself in the shoes
of a guy who's at trial for his life literally
and his lawyers are doing absolutely nothing to help him.
How can that be? How could that stand? And by
the way, is that why you're taking the bar. I'm
taking it just because I want to know more. If
I don't know a lot about the system and how
(17:26):
the law actually works, then I feel like I can't
help as many people. I know we can get a
lot done, but I feel like I could on a
different level. So that's why I am taking it. But
it infuriates me to hear when cases when there's ineffective counsel.
It just makes me so mad, especially if it's an
(17:47):
appointed attorney, that you think that if you don't have
the money to afford an attorney and so you're getting
a point in one, that they're going to be ineffective
and not help but actually hurt your case so much.
I mean, I don't know how I can live with
myself if I was an attorney like that. You know,
for me, any injustice troubles me. But this one sticks
(18:09):
in my mind because there he is on death row
and basically the closest thing we have to hell on earth.
And you know, I wanted to ask you about that.
How do you feel about the death penalty in general.
You know what, I'm just not for the death penalty
no matter what. You know. Obviously there are people that
have done really horrific things and definitely deserve to be
(18:32):
behind bars. But I don't believe in taking a life.
But I think, especially with Julius's case, he just didn't
get a fair trial, bottom line. So I think that
especially if there is even a chance that someone is
innocent and their life would be taken, We've just seen
it happen too many times for this to still be
(18:54):
happening on the I can't support it. For people who
are listening, now, what could you say to them when
they end up serving on a jury which, you know,
let's face it, all of us at some point get
one of those jury duty notices and it's you look
(19:14):
at it and you go and no, now, I gotta
disrupt my life. It's literally my dream to do that.
I hope that when I get like jury duty, that
it's some case that I can make a difference in.
No one wants to get the wrong person because it
also prevents us from getting the right person. So and
in this case, I mean, it's a tragedy. What happened
(19:34):
to this family that they lost this guy who by
all accounts was a good guy, and we want justice
for him too. But there is no justice when you
have the wrong person in prison. I think you have
to be extremely sensitive with the families that are involved here.
My compassion for helping someone and I'm not just speaking
(19:56):
about Julius, it can be anyone never takes away my
empathy for the family of the victim, and ultimately we
all have the same goal. Is like what you just
said is making sure that the right person is put
behind bars and that the innocent person is able to
(20:16):
be freed from this nightmare that they're in. I mean,
as we've heard at Julius's trial, the defense didn't even
give the jury much information to work with. But believe
it or not, it gets even worse. During the trial
in the jury room, one of the jurors said out loud,
why are we wasting our time here? We ought to
(20:37):
just take that end out back and bury um outside
the jail, and one of the jurors approached a bailiff
and told him what she heard and asked to talk
to the judge on the record. The judge sort of
dismissed it as well, he could have been talking about
(20:59):
osam bin Laden. We don't know who the juror was
talking about. Take the N word out of the equation.
You still have a juror who made up his mind
and was going to convict Julius and sentence him to death.
Throw the N word in there, and the racism is
(21:22):
just oozing from this case. We also know that between
and two thousand and twelve, there was a study conducted
in Oklahoma on race and the death penalty. The authors
concluded that an African American male who is convicted of
(21:44):
killing a white male is three times more likely to
get the death penalty in Oklahoma. So at trial, yet
racism incentivized lying witnesses and no defense whatsoever. So Dale,
what you took on this case, You guys had your
work cut out for you, to say the least. But
(22:05):
there was a new law in place in Oklahoma that
allowed you to do DNA testing and post conviction. So
he tested the red bandanna right it was sitting in
in evidence for almost twenty years. Dr Shapiro, he used
to be with the Department of Forensic Biology at the
Medical Examiner's Office in New York City, reviewed the DNA
(22:29):
report that was produced by Bodhi Sellmark and came to
some conclusions. So one of the things that Megan Toby,
the victim's sister, testified to was that the shooter yelled
something at her is she was running away, And we
identified a stain on the bandanna, and we wanted to
(22:54):
check if that stain was saliva, and it came back
negative is to saliva. So we don't even know if
that bandanna that was found in Julius's attic was the
same bandanna that the assailant war because there's not the
(23:15):
saliva staying on it that should be there, because the
assailant yelled, don't forget this was July and Oklahoma, right,
So you do have to suspend a lot of this
belief to come up with the conclusion that someone Julius
or anyone is going to be in an extremely high
pressure situation on a very hot day and not sweat
(23:39):
or breathe into the bandanna that they're supposedly wearing on
their face. We don't know. We'll never know whether the
gun was wrapped in the bandanna or whether the gun
was taken and placed in the bandanna by the authorities
when they were taking it out, one would hope they
would put it in an evidence bag instead. But the
state made a big deal about the fact that there
were several different people's DNA on this bandanna, and that
(24:03):
one of the people seems to be somewhat consistent with Julius.
Can you elaborate on what that really means, because some
people would look at that and go, oh, wait a minute,
and you know, if I guess I got the right
guy after all? Right, case closed? Um, But the testing
indicates that the d n A was degraded and was
(24:26):
defined as trace DNA, which suggests that the d NA
could have been transferred to the item. So the bandana
is found in Julius's house, it's handled by the police,
it's in his bedroom. It's very possible that any DNA
(24:49):
on there that could be consistent with Julius could come
about as a result of the transfer of the d
n A. So here's what we're faced with. It seems
to me and correct me if I'm wrong on any
of these fronts. Julius didn't match the eyewitness description. His
(25:09):
hair was short and could never have stuck out from
a stocking cap. But Chris Jordan's absolutely could have. Chris
Jordan's gave a confession that was riddled with inconsistencies and
false as he changed his story numerous times. Chris also
admitted to planting the gun exactly where the police founded
(25:30):
in Julius's house on more than one occasion. There's no
salivary DNA on the bandanna and evidence, and it doesn't
seem to be the one that was worn across the
shooters or anyone's face anyway. And I'm leaving out other
insculpatory stuff. Forget that incompetent defense, forget the racial bias,
forget the jury, forget everything. Those facts alone would seem
(25:53):
to be enough to unravel this. And then you add
to it that the only thing connecting to it are
the words of too highly incentivized witnesses, both of whom
happened to be career criminals who were maybe an offer
they could almost count refused. I mean they were given it,
an offer that they would be able to avoid lengthy
(26:14):
prison sentences of their own in exchange for their testimony
against Julius. Does that pretty much sum it up? That's it?
And one would think that, you know, why is Julius
even in prison, let alone on death row, but that's
not how it turned out. This leads to my next question, Kim,
(26:36):
his only contact to the outside world is through letters.
Have you gotten letters directly from him or have you
corresponded with him in any way? I have, yes, you know,
just hearing what he has to say, and I mean,
what I can't understand, but I'm so grateful for is
someone in Julius's situation who could be so angry at
(27:01):
the world, and I don't I don't know how I
would act if I was in his situation. But to
see the grace that he has and to see how
he's fighting through this and won't give up, it inspires me.
So I want to fight like I We need him
to get out. I mean, just to even know that
(27:23):
because he was an athlete, to see a lot of
athletes support him and write letters on his behalf now
to send to the governor has been so amazing to see,
you know, when he was playing ball, Blake Griffin's dad
was his coach and its completely in support of Julius
and Blake Griffin wrote an amazing, heartfelt letter for the
(27:44):
governor to see in support of Julius's release. Russell Westbrook
There's been some amazing people that really want to see
him released as well, people that grew up there, people
that played their Carmelo Anthony who played in Oklahoma for
a little while. His wife is my best friend, you know.
I sent him all the facts and he wrote a
(28:05):
letter as well. It's amazing to see the support that
has come together. And I hope that everyone really pays
attention before it's too late, because we will not go
out easy on this one. So Kim, if you could
talk to the governor and you may have that opportunity,
I hope um. And we know that the governor of
Oklahoma is a guy who cares about criminal justice reform.
(28:29):
He's done some positive things for sure. So if you
could talk to him, what would you say? Yeah, I
would just first of all, love to walk him through
the facts of Julius case and explain to him what
kind of person Julius is and was before his life
was turned upside down. And I've heard he's a really
(28:53):
compassionate person and really does care about reform. And I
just hope to have that opportunity, And we're going to
be presenting him all of these letters of support soon,
and I believe that he will pay attention. I have
faith in that. It would be hard to imagine that
he and the members of the Parole Board wouldn't be
(29:16):
moved to take action here. Between the outcry and the public,
the support of prominent people, faith leaders and business leaders,
so many different people, and the facts of the case
cry out for justice. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you know,
everyone always asked me like, well, what can we do?
And I think the most important thing to do is
(29:37):
call the Governor's office and elected officials that can really
make a difference, and just be really loud, and you
should go to Justice for Julius Jones dot com first
of all, look into his case. Everything is on this website,
from the documentary The Last Offense with Viola Davis to
(29:58):
where you can sign the petition in favor of Julius,
and you can also subscribe to stay up to date
on what's going on, and it even gives you a
link to email the Parole Board. I do believe that
the Parole Board is like in favor of reform. I
believe everyone is very compassionate from what I've heard, So
(30:19):
I just urge everyone please sign the petition for Julius Jones.
If you're moved by his story, I've done it. I
believe in him so much. I believe in his innocence.
Justice for Julius Jones dot Com. We have a regular
(30:42):
feature on the show which is my favorite part of
the show, which is where I get to just kick back,
turn off my microphone, leave my headphones on and listen.
And so what we call this segment closing Arguments, and
we're going to hear from Dale ant when at and
of course Madeleine, but let's kick things off with you,
(31:04):
kim Oh. Thank you for having me on here, and
thank you for everything that you do and for showing
me the way. Seriously, I look up to you so much,
and I'm so grateful to you for sharing so many
cases with me and that we're able to hopefully open
up people's minds and hearts that might have been a
little bit closed off when it comes to reform or
(31:26):
might not understood how they could help, and then we're
giving them a platform where they can help out and
be a part of the conversation and help fight for
people that really really deserve it. So thank you, Dale,
You've done a fantastic job and I appreciate you making
the time. I know it's going to make a difference. Well,
thank you, Jason. We have a commutation application pending before
(31:51):
the Oklahoma Pardoning Parole Board. Julius is thankful for all
the support, the prayers, the letter that he has received
that is giving him strength. This case got the attention
it deserved when Viola Davis and Julius Tennan produced the
last defense that put light on this injustice and wrongful conviction.
(32:16):
What's troubling to me, and we should all be concerned
about this, is that without the last defense, no one
would be interested in this case. Julius would have been
just another African American man in prison saying he was innocent,
one of the four percent, and no one would care.
There are thousands of Julius behind bars today and people
(32:41):
should care. And we know you care, Jason, and we
appreciate that this struggle isn't over. Thank you very much.
Why don't we save mom for last, because you know
she's mom, So antoine over to you. So first I
would say, did my brother, Julius there is Jones. He
(33:02):
did not kill Paul. How my brother is a human being.
He is not a number when we consider people human
beings and not just numbers, and we really take into
account all the facts. I'm just asking them to correct
this wrong. I'm asking you to look at all of
the key points in this case. I'm asking you to
(33:23):
understand that my brother never got a fair defense. He
never got a proper defense, he never got a juror
of his peers, he never got a chance to voice
what happened to him from his side. And I'm just
asking you, as a human being to understand and take
my brother in consideration as a human being and not
(33:44):
a number. He is not a person that would take
a life. He is a person that will protect the life.
He is a person that cares about everybody's well being.
To this day, he cares. He cares more about how
everybody else is doing then how he's doing. Side. That's
who my brother is. He's a person that cares. He's
a loyal person. He is a person that loves life.
(34:08):
I never gave up, and I'm still not gonna give up.
We shall not give up. We shall not rest. Even
though the defense rest for him, we shall not rest.
Thank you, thank you, and now for the final words, Madeline.
First of all, Julius is a good person. He's very kind.
He's loving compassion, and a lot of times he will
(34:30):
hurt himself to keep from hurting someone else. And that's
the reason he's in predicament he's in now, and I
just want to say to the parlorod board that one
size does not fit all and that I would like
for him to take careful consideration concerning Julius and to
(34:54):
look at what he will be able to contribute to
society if they spare his life. We just need to
try to get things right because when justice is covered up,
it stays covered for so long, but it'll either burn
through or it will grow. And right now I feel
(35:16):
like that justice is growing because uh, it wants to
be heard and it wants to be fulfilled what it's
really meant to be just for all, not just for
some of us. And you know, freedom is worth more
than money. My biggest joy is to help my son
(35:38):
home and to be about the things that he's dreamed
and long to want to do. And I thank God
for this opportunity today to be able to express so
many things that I've held in Today. I really thank
God for you, Jason. I thank God for people like you.
(36:04):
Don't forget to give us a fantastic review. Wherever you
get your podcasts, it really helps. And I'm a proud
donor to the Innocence Project and I really hope you'll
join me in supporting this very important cause and helping
to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to Innocence Project dot
org to learn how to donate and get involved. I'd
like to thank our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wardis.
(36:27):
The music in the show is by three time OSCAR
nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on
Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast.
Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flam is a production of Lava
for Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company Number one
Hosts And Creators
Lauren Bright Pacheco
Maggie Freleng
Jason Flom
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