November 24, 2021 • 33 mins
On December 20, 1987, at about 2 am, two masked men forced their way into a Burger King in Brooklyn, New York, as employees were closing. A third man entered the restaurant at some point, and they blindfolded and raped an 18-year-old female employee and forced a male employee to participate. The three assailants fled with $3,000 in cash. Both employees reported the crime as involving three assailants. But, two weeks later, when the police pulled over Mark Denny with two of the assailants, and the third assailant was identified, detectives convinced the female employee that there were actually four assailants. Despite a lack of physical evidence and the male employee's insistence that there were only 3 attackers, Mark was convicted and sentenced to up to 57 years. The 3 assailants eventually excluded Mark from the crime in sworn statements. But, it took an investigation by Brooklyn's CRU, to expose the corrupt identification process, setting Mark free after almost 30 years.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
At around two am on December twenty three, young men
Rafael James, Eddie Vieira, and Mark Smith held up a
Burger King in Brooklyn, where they blindfolded and raped a
female employee and forced a male employee to participate. They
left with three thousand dollars in cash. Both survivors initially
described three assailants. Two weeks later, on January eight, Raphael
(00:26):
James and Mark Smith were on their way to a
party with Raphael's sixteen year old cousin, Mark Denny, when
the two men stopped the car outside of another store
that they intended to rob. Mark wanted no part of it.
While they argued, police pulled up, searched the car and
found a gun. James and Smith were suspects in the
December twentie incident, and Mark Denny became a suspect by association.
(00:51):
Mark was bailed out of jail that night and ignored
his cousin's request to raise bail buddy so out of spite,
Mark's cousin named him as an assailant as well, even
though the victims repeatedly said that there were only three
assailants and had identified Bierra, Smith and James. The detectives
pressured the female victim with a suggestive lineup to change
the number of assailants from three to four, and Mark
(01:13):
Denny was ultimately convicted. Years later, Raphael James recanted excluding
Mark from the crime, but it took an investigation by
the Brooklyn cru to reveal the corrupt identification process in
which the female survivor was re victimized. Mark Denny was
finally freed exactly thirty years from the date of the crime.
(01:37):
This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction. I'm
your host, Jason Floman. Today I have a guest who's
(01:57):
a really special guy. And he's special to me because
I had the privilege of meeting and actually having lunch
with him three days after he was released from prison
after thirty years for a crime he didn't commit. So,
without further ado, let me welcome and introduce my friend
Mark Danny. Mark. Welcome to ronfo Conviction. Thank you Jason
(02:21):
for having me so. Mark. This crime happened when you
were just sixteen years old. Sixteen right, and the crime
itself is like something out of a out of a
horror movie. But before we get into the whole situation
and how you got wrapped up in it. Mark, tell us,
what was your life like growing up. Were you born
and raised in Brooklyn. No. I was born in Guyana,
(02:44):
South America. I was there all the way up until
seven years old. Then I migrated to America. My childhood
experience in Guyana was very fun filled, and that's pretty
much how I grew up. My grandmother left to Margaret
to America. She made certain things happen and I was
able to be flowing in and I was so happy again.
(03:05):
My grandmother was like my everything. When I first came
to America, I was living in Flatbooh section of Brooklyn.
I was living with my grandmother and after a while,
my cousin, Raphael, he decided to come and live with
a two So it was me him living with my grandmother,
just like he was in Guyana. And Raphael is a
pivotal character in your story, and it becomes clear later
(03:28):
that he was into some really bad stuff, dark stuff.
But before all that, it seems like you had a
pretty happy and saved childhood. And let's bear in mind
as we listened to the story that this was the
nineteen eighties in Brooklyn when both crime and police misconduct
were out of control, right, And the crime in this
(03:49):
case is, even by the standards of the day, is
just brutal, disgusting and really really sad. We're talking about
an incident that happened in December twenty seven around two am.
And what happened was two masked men forced their way
into a Burger King that was about to close in Brooklyn, right,
and two employees were there, one male and one female,
(04:10):
were closing up the shop. They these guys came in
and they forced the male employee to undress and forced
him into a storeroom. A third assailant entered the restaurant
at some point. They had blindfolded and forced the eighteen
year old female employee to take her clothes off as well,
(04:31):
and then all three men raped her in the back room.
It's horrible. The male employee also told police that the
men forced him to sexually assault her as well. I'm
sorry you have to hear this, but this is These
are the facts of the case. The three men fled
with around three thousand dollars in cash receipts from the
restaurants safe. I mean, even during this high crime era,
(04:54):
this incident stood out and you find out later that
your cousin Raphael j along with his friends Mark Smith
and Eddie Fierira, that they actually did this to the
girl at your local Burger King, who was a girl
that you happened to have had a crush on. Right,
But for the time being, this incident is just more
insanity in the neighborhood that's grown accustomed to insane things happening.
(05:17):
So about two weeks passed by, it's January. Tell us
what happened that night. My cousin wanted to go to
a certain party, but he wanted to hold my aunt's car.
She wouldn't let him hold a car, so he kind
of talked me into doing it, under the impression that
he'll let me come with him. So I would and
barrow my aunt's car, and they directed me to where
(05:38):
the party whether it was supposed to be in Manhattan.
Then we got in front of a store and it
was me, my cousin and his friend, and his friend
wanted us to pull over, and they started talking about
it's too early to go to a party. They wanted
to do a robberie real quick, and automatically became afraid
for a lot of reasons, and the many reasons. Was
I was a kid and I never really did anything dangerous.
(06:01):
You know, I was resistant. We stood in the car
arguing about it. But to make a long story short,
nothing happened. No one decided to do anything because I
was there. I don't know how long we was in
front of the store, but I guess the people in
the store probably seen us, got suspicious called the cops.
So the cops pulled up and they was waiting to
see what happened. And as he was driving off, they
(06:22):
pulled us over and I was in the back seat.
My cousin was in the front seat with his friends,
and out of nowhere, a gun was tossed to me. So,
like you described, it was Raphael James driving and Mark
Smith in the front pastor seat. And they, of course
were suspects in the December twentie robbery at rape in Brooklyn.
You became a suspect as well, just because you happened
(06:45):
to be in the car with them, Right, But did
you even know that they had been involved in this
insane crime? No? I did not, if you think for me,
became aware that this is what they do on a
regular because that's how they was trying to convince me
it's easy. He did it before, So the whole thing
of what my cousin was actually doing for a living,
(07:06):
I became aware of all of it at that very moment.
So he was some kind of stick up guy. This
was like a regular thing for him. But you were
just a kid who was in the wrong place at
the wrong time. And we all got locked in that
night as a resulting me being in the car with them.
You know, I got billed out that night, and he didn't.
Him and his friend Mark Smith stayed there and Mark
(07:26):
Smith gave me a bunch of jury to bring home
to Pawn for him to help make build money. And
my cousin, now Raphael James, he wanted me to go
to my grandmother house and get some kind of wedi
at stash and sell it it was supposed to be
like a pound and get him build money. So now
here I get built out with all this jury in
(07:49):
these duty to go do stuff for people that just
finished almost got me killed and got me locked up,
and tricked me into going to a party that they
claimed wasn't even no party, you know. So I was
piste off and it is the energy I came out with.
So when I went back to my friends the next
day and I explained it to them, you know, there
was all on my side. It was all against the
(08:11):
mode almost got you locked up. You could have been
a jail now you gotta go to court. Now you're
gonna come out here and go sell drugs and jury
for the You know, it made me felt like, you know,
they just mailed me, felt like it wouldn't have been
the right thing to do. And when you didn't do
what your cousin and mark Smith had told you to do,
and your cousin found out about it, he was really
passed and he eventually made a statement sending investigators in
(08:34):
your direction. It stayed him to such an extent that
I guess he always wanted to give me back, because
in a statement he said he just wanted to put
me in jail. So I can see what he was
going through when he was in the he needed my help.
But I don't even see how. I don't even see
the logic in that. I don't see that. So while
both victims had reported three assailants right three and the
(08:56):
other three guys, your cousin and his friends Eddievier and
Marksman had been identified from either photographic or live lineups.
That should have been the end of it right there,
right but with your cousin had told detectives, it didn't
stop right there. This is when the identification process got corrupted.
It's now March. Detectives told the female victim who had
(09:20):
maintained that there were only three assailants, right three, and
she had already identified the three, but she had been
through an unbelievably traumatic experience, and remember she was blindfolded
for most of it. So the detectives told her that
they had one of her attackers and that his name
was Mark Denny, and they put your picture in a
photo lineup, and she still didn't pick you. But two
(09:44):
days later, you're at your grandmother's house and these cops
come and take you back to the precinct where they
interrogate you and eventually puts you in a live lineup,
and she picks you the person remember whose picture she
saw but did not identify two days earlier. And now
the number of assailing goes from three to four. Now
you were the only person who appeared in both the
(10:05):
photo and live lineups. And we know that type of
suggestive technique plays psychological tricks on anybody, right, if you
see the same person over and over again, your brain
will start to adjust, and people can be easily influenced
by this type of manipulation. And this is not just
me saying it. It's been proven over and over again
(10:26):
in countless studies. So her account was altered to make
room for four assailants. Yet the male employee only viewed
the live lineup, and of course he did not identify you,
and he was the one who was not blindfolded, and
he maintained that there were only three assailants. And of
course there was exactly zero physical evidence pointing to you
(10:47):
because you weren't freaking there, but the other three guys
had all left fingerprints and other evidence at the scene.
I mean, I don't know what the hell these detectives
thought they were doing, but it definitely wasn't in the
interest of justice, especially not to you, a sixteen year
(11:08):
old boy at the time. You know, it took me
to the prison. They smacked me around, asked me questions
over and over and over that I really didn't have
any answer to. I would telling me I really didn't
know nothing, and they smacked me around. It took me
to the line of room. They put me in there
and claimed I got picked out. I didn't know what
to do or what to say other than what I
was already saying. I was really like an empty vessel
(11:30):
at that moment that was just being done with whatever
that authority felt was appropriate to try to resolve a
nasty case, and that became a nightmare. This episode is
(11:52):
underwritten by a i G, a leading global insurance company,
and by Accenture, a global professional services company with leading
capabilities in digital, cloud and security. Working to reform the
criminal justice system is a key pillar of the ai
G pro Bono program, which provides free legal services and
other support to many nonprofit organizations and individuals most in need.
(12:14):
As part of Accenter's commitment to racial and civil justice.
Accenter's Legal Access Program provides pro bono legal services in
partnership with more than forty organizations, bringing meaningful change to
people and communities worldwide. There was like fivedollars something like that,
(12:39):
and then they finally took me to write as Island.
You know. I was scary because all the reputations in
the neighborhood, you know, is about people going to right
As Island and coming out what I really want to
do is just tell anyone that would listen to my
story and get them to help me out. But I
had no increment of how ugly in and repulse people
are by the nate to of sex defense and jail.
(13:01):
So when I got there, the first level of abuse
was from the guards, because when you come in there,
get your criminal records so they know what you're coming
in for. That crime is esteem is one of the
most disgusted in prison sex defense period by the civilians,
by the criminals, even the dirt bag, you know, so
me having that title automatically it started off with abuse.
(13:24):
You know, I started to intermingle. I felt that if
people understood my situation that they would take my side
and help me out. But they didn't. You know, I
just became a target. The gods beat me down. One
day on my way back from the mess all. They
beat me down to a point where you couldn't even
recognize me. Friends that I had that they didn't even
know it was me walking through the hallway because my
(13:46):
face was so bad. Jesus. I don't know. I don't
know how people can behave this way. I mean, the
records Island is a notorious place. It's no place for
any human being, much less a kid like you and situation,
and you certainly didn't deserve any of this ship to
happen to you. So how long Mark were you held
(14:06):
in Rikers before the trial? I was a requizan and
a belieful approximately one year. So Eddie Vieira and Mark
Smith pled guilty and was sent to prison. But you
and your cousin Rob fail James went to trial together,
and at that point you still had no idea that
he had made this statement naming you as an assailant,
a statement that, of course he later recanted. So who
(14:30):
represented you? Oh? Man? I had this lawyer named Harry Dusenberry.
He was a straight bows o man. I mean from
the way he dressed, his jacket sneezes midway between his
wrists and his elbows, his head looking all craziest pants
as how waters he just looked like a clown, like
a joke. That's ridiculous, yess I out of a movie
(14:52):
or something. So okay, So you're represented by this guy
who can't even find clothes that fit right much. Let's
figure out the law. And he was a public defender, No,
he was actually a paid attorney, Like, I don't know
where my parents got this guy from. He didn't really
communicate it with me at all, and the relationship was
not good. They came to a point where he was
(15:13):
charging my family seven thousand dollars. My grandmother had to
work give the money to my mother to give to him.
So it came to a point where where the payment
was supposed to be done, he was claiming that he
was still short two thousand dollars and if he didn't
get it, my case is gonna full apart. Mark, did
he visit you in prison? Did he prepare for the
case at all? He navicated prison and visit me. I
would see him when I go to the courtroom in
(15:34):
the back of the courtroom and the holding pins. So
that trial, your grandmother was called to the stand in
your defense, and she testified that you were home with
her on the night of the crime. But no one
seemed to care about that. You know, it's so easy
for them to disparage her as being willing to lie
for her grandson. Then, of course, the female victim who
(15:55):
had been pressured into changing her memory, right of three
assailants changing get to four, she was called to identify you,
but as we know, she was also blindfolded throughout most
of this incident and repeatedly stated that she couldn't remember
what happened. Meanwhile, the other victim in this case maintained
(16:15):
still that there were only three assailants and did not
identify you as one of those assailants. So for a
fleeting moment, this kind of looked like it might have
gone your way, which would have been the right way,
of course, But then this statement from your own cousin
and co defendant, Raphael James, came to light and sealed
your faith. My co defender, Raphael Jays, they say that
(16:38):
he made a statement when he was questioned, and in
his statement they asked him who was all there, and
he said Eddie Vieira, he said Mark Smith. And he
said and my cousin, Mark. You know, this is my cousin.
This is a blood relative, and we're talking about some
as serious as a race. So I guess even though
(16:59):
it was all those in the cases, that it wasn't me.
I think it's because of the ugly and nasty nature
the case that made a lot of people just become
blinded to the truth, an act that in a manner
disregarded truth. Now we know that he later recanted this
statement and excluded you from the crime, but at this
point you were basically doomed. I mean, it arguably all
(17:20):
comes down to him. Had he never told detectives that
spiteful lie to begin with, they would have never been
any motivation for them to obtain that corrupted I d
or to basically coerce the victims to change the number
of assailants from three to four. But of course that's
(17:41):
not how this went. I was really depressed at that
whole thing. I was just waiting fit to be oval,
but I wasn't really listening when the victim pointed at
me and actually said that I rape it. That told
to me, and it was hardbreaking to me because seeing
the victim for the very first time up on the stand.
The store that the crime took place in is a
(18:02):
restaurant that as a kid, me and my female cousins
were going that store and play in the playground area,
So I saw the person before, but I never said
anything to the female in my life. But one of
the things that I noticed was that she was very beautiful.
She had a very very bright aura to herself. And
when I actually seen her for the first time in
(18:23):
that courtroom, up on that and that broke my heart
because in my head I was thinking to myself about
my co defendive rapper. James said right next that, hold up,
you know that I know that girl that they used
to tease me about being infatuated me. I can't really
explain it to was like, he just brokes up in me.
I started crying because someone that in my childhood timeline
(18:44):
who's pass that our cused that I was infatuated. It
ended up being the very source that's condemned me. And
it's because of my cousin. That is a lot. Man,
That is heavy. Right. This whole thing would be hard
enough for anybody to process or or deal with without
all the those other factors mixed in. So there you
are you. I mean, you had no shot of getting
(19:05):
justice in this scenario whatsoever. And the trial, of course
lasted only two days, right, two days for man's life.
So mark the moment that the verdict was read. Do
you even remember what that was like? No, man, I cried,
I broke down. I was trying to tell the judge
for the very last time I wasn't there I told
(19:27):
her that my cousin lied on me. I learned everything
about the case and everything as I was going through
the process. I didn't even know he made a statement
dragging me in, and it devastated me of travel because
I had to sit next to this person that throughout
the whole trial until that statement came out, he was
acting on nice and like he was concerned and telling
me don't worry, I'm gonna beat it and blah blah
(19:49):
blah blah. Ne when the statement come out showing that
he pulled me into it, I couldn't believe that. Yeah,
that just as another layer of horror to this whole scenario. So, okay,
so you're convicted, you're taken away, sentenced to nineteen to
fifty seven years in prison. These numbers couldn't even have
made any sense to you much longer than you have
(20:10):
been alive at this point in time. Right, But we
know that in these cases, when you come up for parole,
if you don't admit guilt, the chance of you getting
out on a crime like this is virtually nothing. So
it's really effectively a life sentence that they gave you
at this point in time, Right, So what happens next?
And how did you survive this entire ordeal? Which prisons
were you win? And how did you find the strength
(20:31):
to survive this impossible situation? You know, I wasn't just
about all the max is in New York State, And
in spite of the harsh criticism and stigma that I
had to carry for all those years, I would admit
that they were prisons where I actually was able to
(20:52):
find peace. There was prisoners, you know, who had great influence,
who was actually able to put the break on a
out of the fund up I was going through in
there because they gave me the benefit of doubt. I
met people that encouraged me just based on hearing me speak.
It was peaceful moments where I was able to tap
into my intellectual abilities. I was able to get education.
(21:15):
I got my g D and there got my barber certificate.
In there. Then I spent a lot of time in
solitary confinement where no one can get to me, even
to sell by yourself. And I embraced those moments where
to another person's solitary confinement may be held to me.
It was refused, it was silace, it was peace. I've
heard other people talk about that. Can of us who
(21:37):
haven't been through it can imagine any of this. But
was there a lowest point while you were in prison
where you actually, you know, we're on the virtual giving
up hope. And there came a point where I was
about to commit suicide. My mind went through all the
things that life has to offer. I actually ruled myself
out of the picture. What happened if I was no
(21:57):
longer here, Yeah, there would be a little bit of
the emotions, There'll be a little bit of this, they'd
be a little bit of that. But just like all
the people I knew, after a while, everything just passes on.
So somehow I got it all, listened to my ad
and said that, you know, it's a waste of time
of me even hanging out, cause it seemed like I
cursed God out, I ripped the Bible up. You know,
I believe that it was no truth for no one
(22:18):
because no one was accepting my truth. It was only
making things harder for me. I never thought I was
coming out because even though I completed my minimum and
I went to parole, they wanted to know the truth,
and my truth and them was a lot. So I
was never getting out there and they know better what
good behaviors I didn't tell those good behaviors was not
(22:42):
getting me up. It was like situation I go. So
(23:06):
you appeal the conviction in but it's denied. You filed
a petition for a bit of habeas corpus, seeking a
new trial, based in part on a statement from Raphael
James that you weren't involved in the crime. But the
petition is denied. Eventually, Eddie Vieira, Mark Smith, and your
cousin Raphael James, they're all released on parole, but you
(23:27):
aren't released because the state, the Parole Board, as usual,
they wanted to hear you admit your guilt to this
crime you didn't commit. They wanted to hear you basically
gravel and you wouldn't do it because you didn't do
the crime. So, okay, tell me about how Nina Morrison
and the Innocence Project got involved in your case and
(23:48):
what happened next. So I was going to low Library
or Research and I got a bunch of organizations that
responded to claims of innocent and I wrote all of them.
A couple of them wrote me back, told me I
was in another state. They really didn't have jurisdiction. It
was jurisdictional issues, and you know, did not I believe
it was. In two thousand nine, I got a letter
(24:09):
from the innocent, probably in the Morrison, telling me that
they're gonna help me. And I was a solitary confinement
when I got that letter that let him made me
feel so good because it just pointed out all the
different reasons why they believe I was in the right.
So I was able to take that letter as a
badge of honor and show it to people in their
security wise and civilian wise, and and make wise that
(24:29):
even if you don't believe my own words, look there's
people who actually believe. You know, those letters from her
and that whole turning point right there was great to me.
But then it this took so long. I didn't think
I was gonna come out anyway, because then she told
me that they couldn't find a forensic evidence. That's what
they was waiting for for years. And then when they
told me that they couldn't find it it was lost
(24:50):
in some laboratory that was destroyed by Hurricane Sandy, I
was crushed. I just started going in about how the
facts was in the record is right, there. What the
hell is they looking for? Is right? It? So Nina
Morrison requests an investigation from the Brooklyn Conviction Review Unit,
which they carried out, and as Sire, you concluded that
the identification process was while it was chest absolute nonsense right,
(25:13):
it had serious problems, taking into account three months had
passed between the crime and the lineup, that after being
through a traumatic event like that blindfolded, that the victim
viewed the line up after having seen your picture, which
is obviously really suggestive. I mean that could contaminate anybody's memory.
And of course all three of the actual culprits, your
(25:35):
cousin add A Bieira and Mark Smith all said that
you had nothing to do with it. They put a
lot of energy in and they came back with evidence
that was consistent with my claim, with what my code
of finer Raffle James claimed at the VR and Mark Smith, both,
according to the investigation, gave up statements that was thorough
(25:55):
and exonerated me. Maybe one decided to just tell the
truth in the and so all these things, put together,
with all the different errors that already existed, paved the
way for me to be exonerated. So that brings us
to December twenty, two thousand seventeen, which is exactly thirty
years after the initial horrendous crime took place. You're joined
(26:16):
by Barry Shack, Nina Morrison, and then also the people
leading the cru at that time, which was Mark Hale
and Lisa Perlman, and King's County District Attorney Eric Gonzalez,
who was sitting in the front row, said that you're
wrongful conviction and this is a direct quote. Happened because
little was known back then about memory retention and retrieval
(26:38):
and their effect on eyeways identification end quote. The case
was finally dismissed with the consent of prosecutors, along with
a conviction for possession of contraband that occurred after you
were incarcerated. So then there you were December twenty, two
thousand seventeen. You're finally freed. Can you tell me about
that day? Like, what the what the how was going
(27:00):
through your mind? Prior to me coming out? I had
to go from this prison to that prison, and interestingly,
one of those trips led me back to Riker Zigna
where it all started. I thought occurred to me the
day that I left Ranker Zion that I was convicted
and depressed and thought my life was over. When I
was going over that bridge to leave Rika Zion to
(27:22):
go to Upstate facility, I said to myself as that
bus was going over bridge, I'm gonna leave my spirit
right here and I don't know when, but someday I'll
be back for you, because I don't want you to
go with me. And the interesting thing is that on
the day that I was leaving to go to court
to come home, at that very moment, as the bus
was on the bridge, I remembered those same words, and
it was like it was just this suspended wait for me.
(27:46):
I just wholesome at that every moment that I received
what I left. I went to court, everybody was there,
you know, people seeing the past, family members, you know,
loved ones. I was going through all kinds of motions.
I got up in front of the court and I
made a statement, I wish I was the hero to
save that girl, because on that day, you know, she
really needed one, but I wasn't there and I couldn't
(28:09):
help out. I am so afraid now about how easy
a person could lie, and the more ugly the lies,
the more people tend to believe is the truth. But
sometimes I worry about the people of jail that didn't
get a chance to prove their innocence and died because
this whole new momentum of criminal justice reform is just
(28:33):
when in history hasn't been that way. So therefore a
whole lot of injustice was always happening. People was going
in there and dying and not coming out. Man. I
could have been one of those people. Man, So you know,
it's scary how destructive a lie could be. The truth
is everything, man. I learned how to understand that and
respect that, so you're at least, but then you're immediately
(28:54):
facing something else you've been working for its full citizenship,
but your conviction and put all that in jeopardy. Right
before I got exonerated, I was scheduled to be deported.
My green card was revoked, and I was up to
the parole board to release me into the hands of Ice,
and from there was straight on the plane, straight back
to Guyana. But in the course of me regaining my
(29:17):
exoneration and ultimately being innocent, and so now I'm going
through the process of getting my naturalization, it's just a
matter of me maintaining focused keeping a good behavior, you know,
and I believe citizenship is important to that because it
will put me in a better position to say and
do a lot and maybe even into into duors that
(29:39):
I would otherwise not be able to. Well. I think
this country owes you a hell of a lot more
than just citizenship. And I'm so glad that the Immigration
Justice Clinic was able to prevent your deportation, where Immigration
and Customs Enforcement inform your lawyers that because all your
criminal convictions were returned, they wouldn't attempt to detain or
(30:01):
deport you, and you were free to seek citizenship and
remain here with your family. And you also have a
book coming out soon, is that right? The Book of
School The Awakening Process, a self empowerment journey. That's beautiful, Mark,
And we'll put links to that, you know where you
can purchase the book and all that stuff in our bio.
(30:21):
So now here we come to closing arguments, which is
my favorite part of the show, and I just want
to thank you Mark for coming here, getting on the
mic and sharing your story. And so how this works
is I'm going to turn my microphone off, but I'm
just gonna kick back in my chair and just listen.
So whatever you feel is left to say, the mic
(30:43):
is yours, you know, to WoT my anxiety experience, you know,
looking back at it, not from my hindsight, and you know,
taking into account all the dysfunctions as going on in
the world, it thrives and capitalizes and create, you know,
livabool conditions for other people to benefit from. So now
the words at a point where they need that in
(31:05):
order to benefit I thought about this while I was
in prison. No crown, no cops, no officers, no facility,
all the different contracts that's connected to that. It's tons
and tons of family that will become impoverished if there
was to remove the element of crime, so capitalizing off
of it, which is creating prisons. And don't get me wrong,
(31:25):
I learned that also prisons or structure, if a person
want to change, they can change for the better. But
the being that the justice system not that it needs
these things in order to function properly. I think it's
an abuse of that justice that the measured by wishes
treats the people who are caught up in these systems.
Is it's cruel and unusual. They're giving out sentences that's
(31:47):
impossible for human It only lives up to seventy five
years to complete triple life two hundred years, three hundred years.
It shows that the value that people have been told
you Lorso justice needs to become more sensitive to that
because at the end of the day of the justice
system is there to correct and fix people and put
them back in the position of function in a way
that they like. Then they shouldn't be so terminal, they
(32:09):
shouldn't be so extreme. They shouldn't establish means on which
this goal of correction becomes impossible. Bad is always gonna be,
but the extreme to rich bad is punished. That right then,
is something that the justice system needs to correct. And
the reason why I believe ultimately they will fall in
shot because when it comes to the truth, they are
(32:31):
not embracing that truth and it trickles all the way
down to the criminals, you know. So the issue is
the truth. We have to learn how to overall embrace
the significance and the importance of truth, because if we
ultimately lose that, man, then the people at the bottom
is no different from the people at the top. And
if that's the case, then I don't know what to
(32:52):
say about that. Hopefully someone would hear. Hopefully someone would
be sensitive enough to acknowledge the truth of these things
and make the change it's necessary. That's my hope. Thank
you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. I'd like to thank
our production team Connor Hall, Justin Golden, Jeff Clyburne, and
(33:14):
Kevin Wardis with research by Lila Robinson. The music in
this production was supplied by three time OSCAR nominated composer
Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on Instagram at
Wrongful Conviction, on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction podcast, and on
Twitter at wrong Conviction, as well as at Lava for Good.
On all three platforms, you can also follow me on
(33:35):
both TikTok and Instagram at It's Jason flop ronvul Conviction
is the production of Lava for Good Podcasts and association
with Signal Company Number one
At around two am on December twenty three, young men
Rafael James, Eddie Vieira, and Mark Smith held up a
Burger King in Brooklyn, where they blindfolded and raped a
female employee and forced a male employee to participate. They
left with three thousand dollars in cash. Both survivors initially
described three assailants. Two weeks later, on January eight, Raphael
(00:26):
James and Mark Smith were on their way to a
party with Raphael's sixteen year old cousin, Mark Denny, when
the two men stopped the car outside of another store
that they intended to rob. Mark wanted no part of it.
While they argued, police pulled up, searched the car and
found a gun. James and Smith were suspects in the
December twentie incident, and Mark Denny became a suspect by association.
(00:51):
Mark was bailed out of jail that night and ignored
his cousin's request to raise bail buddy so out of spite,
Mark's cousin named him as an assailant as well, even
though the victims repeatedly said that there were only three
assailants and had identified Bierra, Smith and James. The detectives
pressured the female victim with a suggestive lineup to change
the number of assailants from three to four, and Mark
(01:13):
Denny was ultimately convicted. Years later, Raphael James recanted excluding
Mark from the crime, but it took an investigation by
the Brooklyn cru to reveal the corrupt identification process in
which the female survivor was re victimized. Mark Denny was
finally freed exactly thirty years from the date of the crime.
(01:37):
This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction. I'm
your host, Jason Floman. Today I have a guest who's
(01:57):
a really special guy. And he's special to me because
I had the privilege of meeting and actually having lunch
with him three days after he was released from prison
after thirty years for a crime he didn't commit. So,
without further ado, let me welcome and introduce my friend
Mark Danny. Mark. Welcome to ronfo Conviction. Thank you Jason
(02:21):
for having me so. Mark. This crime happened when you
were just sixteen years old. Sixteen right, and the crime
itself is like something out of a out of a
horror movie. But before we get into the whole situation
and how you got wrapped up in it. Mark, tell us,
what was your life like growing up. Were you born
and raised in Brooklyn. No. I was born in Guyana,
(02:44):
South America. I was there all the way up until
seven years old. Then I migrated to America. My childhood
experience in Guyana was very fun filled, and that's pretty
much how I grew up. My grandmother left to Margaret
to America. She made certain things happen and I was
able to be flowing in and I was so happy again.
(03:05):
My grandmother was like my everything. When I first came
to America, I was living in Flatbooh section of Brooklyn.
I was living with my grandmother and after a while,
my cousin, Raphael, he decided to come and live with
a two So it was me him living with my grandmother,
just like he was in Guyana. And Raphael is a
pivotal character in your story, and it becomes clear later
(03:28):
that he was into some really bad stuff, dark stuff.
But before all that, it seems like you had a
pretty happy and saved childhood. And let's bear in mind
as we listened to the story that this was the
nineteen eighties in Brooklyn when both crime and police misconduct
were out of control, right, And the crime in this
(03:49):
case is, even by the standards of the day, is
just brutal, disgusting and really really sad. We're talking about
an incident that happened in December twenty seven around two am.
And what happened was two masked men forced their way
into a Burger King that was about to close in Brooklyn, right,
and two employees were there, one male and one female,
(04:10):
were closing up the shop. They these guys came in
and they forced the male employee to undress and forced
him into a storeroom. A third assailant entered the restaurant
at some point. They had blindfolded and forced the eighteen
year old female employee to take her clothes off as well,
(04:31):
and then all three men raped her in the back room.
It's horrible. The male employee also told police that the
men forced him to sexually assault her as well. I'm
sorry you have to hear this, but this is These
are the facts of the case. The three men fled
with around three thousand dollars in cash receipts from the
restaurants safe. I mean, even during this high crime era,
(04:54):
this incident stood out and you find out later that
your cousin Raphael j along with his friends Mark Smith
and Eddie Fierira, that they actually did this to the
girl at your local Burger King, who was a girl
that you happened to have had a crush on. Right,
But for the time being, this incident is just more
insanity in the neighborhood that's grown accustomed to insane things happening.
(05:17):
So about two weeks passed by, it's January. Tell us
what happened that night. My cousin wanted to go to
a certain party, but he wanted to hold my aunt's car.
She wouldn't let him hold a car, so he kind
of talked me into doing it, under the impression that
he'll let me come with him. So I would and
barrow my aunt's car, and they directed me to where
(05:38):
the party whether it was supposed to be in Manhattan.
Then we got in front of a store and it
was me, my cousin and his friend, and his friend
wanted us to pull over, and they started talking about
it's too early to go to a party. They wanted
to do a robberie real quick, and automatically became afraid
for a lot of reasons, and the many reasons. Was
I was a kid and I never really did anything dangerous.
(06:01):
You know, I was resistant. We stood in the car
arguing about it. But to make a long story short,
nothing happened. No one decided to do anything because I
was there. I don't know how long we was in
front of the store, but I guess the people in
the store probably seen us, got suspicious called the cops.
So the cops pulled up and they was waiting to
see what happened. And as he was driving off, they
(06:22):
pulled us over and I was in the back seat.
My cousin was in the front seat with his friends,
and out of nowhere, a gun was tossed to me. So,
like you described, it was Raphael James driving and Mark
Smith in the front pastor seat. And they, of course
were suspects in the December twentie robbery at rape in Brooklyn.
You became a suspect as well, just because you happened
(06:45):
to be in the car with them, Right, But did
you even know that they had been involved in this
insane crime? No? I did not, if you think for me,
became aware that this is what they do on a
regular because that's how they was trying to convince me
it's easy. He did it before, So the whole thing
of what my cousin was actually doing for a living,
(07:06):
I became aware of all of it at that very moment.
So he was some kind of stick up guy. This
was like a regular thing for him. But you were
just a kid who was in the wrong place at
the wrong time. And we all got locked in that
night as a resulting me being in the car with them.
You know, I got billed out that night, and he didn't.
Him and his friend Mark Smith stayed there and Mark
(07:26):
Smith gave me a bunch of jury to bring home
to Pawn for him to help make build money. And
my cousin, now Raphael James, he wanted me to go
to my grandmother house and get some kind of wedi
at stash and sell it it was supposed to be
like a pound and get him build money. So now
here I get built out with all this jury in
(07:49):
these duty to go do stuff for people that just
finished almost got me killed and got me locked up,
and tricked me into going to a party that they
claimed wasn't even no party, you know. So I was
piste off and it is the energy I came out with.
So when I went back to my friends the next
day and I explained it to them, you know, there
was all on my side. It was all against the
(08:11):
mode almost got you locked up. You could have been
a jail now you gotta go to court. Now you're
gonna come out here and go sell drugs and jury
for the You know, it made me felt like, you know,
they just mailed me, felt like it wouldn't have been
the right thing to do. And when you didn't do
what your cousin and mark Smith had told you to do,
and your cousin found out about it, he was really
passed and he eventually made a statement sending investigators in
(08:34):
your direction. It stayed him to such an extent that
I guess he always wanted to give me back, because
in a statement he said he just wanted to put
me in jail. So I can see what he was
going through when he was in the he needed my help.
But I don't even see how. I don't even see
the logic in that. I don't see that. So while
both victims had reported three assailants right three and the
(08:56):
other three guys, your cousin and his friends Eddievier and
Marksman had been identified from either photographic or live lineups.
That should have been the end of it right there,
right but with your cousin had told detectives, it didn't
stop right there. This is when the identification process got corrupted.
It's now March. Detectives told the female victim who had
(09:20):
maintained that there were only three assailants, right three, and
she had already identified the three, but she had been
through an unbelievably traumatic experience, and remember she was blindfolded
for most of it. So the detectives told her that
they had one of her attackers and that his name
was Mark Denny, and they put your picture in a
photo lineup, and she still didn't pick you. But two
(09:44):
days later, you're at your grandmother's house and these cops
come and take you back to the precinct where they
interrogate you and eventually puts you in a live lineup,
and she picks you the person remember whose picture she
saw but did not identify two days earlier. And now
the number of assailing goes from three to four. Now
you were the only person who appeared in both the
(10:05):
photo and live lineups. And we know that type of
suggestive technique plays psychological tricks on anybody, right, if you
see the same person over and over again, your brain
will start to adjust, and people can be easily influenced
by this type of manipulation. And this is not just
me saying it. It's been proven over and over again
(10:26):
in countless studies. So her account was altered to make
room for four assailants. Yet the male employee only viewed
the live lineup, and of course he did not identify you,
and he was the one who was not blindfolded, and
he maintained that there were only three assailants. And of
course there was exactly zero physical evidence pointing to you
(10:47):
because you weren't freaking there, but the other three guys
had all left fingerprints and other evidence at the scene.
I mean, I don't know what the hell these detectives
thought they were doing, but it definitely wasn't in the
interest of justice, especially not to you, a sixteen year
(11:08):
old boy at the time. You know, it took me
to the prison. They smacked me around, asked me questions
over and over and over that I really didn't have
any answer to. I would telling me I really didn't
know nothing, and they smacked me around. It took me
to the line of room. They put me in there
and claimed I got picked out. I didn't know what
to do or what to say other than what I
was already saying. I was really like an empty vessel
(11:30):
at that moment that was just being done with whatever
that authority felt was appropriate to try to resolve a
nasty case, and that became a nightmare. This episode is
(11:52):
underwritten by a i G, a leading global insurance company,
and by Accenture, a global professional services company with leading
capabilities in digital, cloud and security. Working to reform the
criminal justice system is a key pillar of the ai
G pro Bono program, which provides free legal services and
other support to many nonprofit organizations and individuals most in need.
(12:14):
As part of Accenter's commitment to racial and civil justice.
Accenter's Legal Access Program provides pro bono legal services in
partnership with more than forty organizations, bringing meaningful change to
people and communities worldwide. There was like fivedollars something like that,
(12:39):
and then they finally took me to write as Island.
You know. I was scary because all the reputations in
the neighborhood, you know, is about people going to right
As Island and coming out what I really want to
do is just tell anyone that would listen to my
story and get them to help me out. But I
had no increment of how ugly in and repulse people
are by the nate to of sex defense and jail.
(13:01):
So when I got there, the first level of abuse
was from the guards, because when you come in there,
get your criminal records so they know what you're coming
in for. That crime is esteem is one of the
most disgusted in prison sex defense period by the civilians,
by the criminals, even the dirt bag, you know, so
me having that title automatically it started off with abuse.
(13:24):
You know, I started to intermingle. I felt that if
people understood my situation that they would take my side
and help me out. But they didn't. You know, I
just became a target. The gods beat me down. One
day on my way back from the mess all. They
beat me down to a point where you couldn't even
recognize me. Friends that I had that they didn't even
know it was me walking through the hallway because my
(13:46):
face was so bad. Jesus. I don't know. I don't
know how people can behave this way. I mean, the
records Island is a notorious place. It's no place for
any human being, much less a kid like you and situation,
and you certainly didn't deserve any of this ship to
happen to you. So how long Mark were you held
(14:06):
in Rikers before the trial? I was a requizan and
a belieful approximately one year. So Eddie Vieira and Mark
Smith pled guilty and was sent to prison. But you
and your cousin Rob fail James went to trial together,
and at that point you still had no idea that
he had made this statement naming you as an assailant,
a statement that, of course he later recanted. So who
(14:30):
represented you? Oh? Man? I had this lawyer named Harry Dusenberry.
He was a straight bows o man. I mean from
the way he dressed, his jacket sneezes midway between his
wrists and his elbows, his head looking all craziest pants
as how waters he just looked like a clown, like
a joke. That's ridiculous, yess I out of a movie
(14:52):
or something. So okay, So you're represented by this guy
who can't even find clothes that fit right much. Let's
figure out the law. And he was a public defender, No,
he was actually a paid attorney, Like, I don't know
where my parents got this guy from. He didn't really
communicate it with me at all, and the relationship was
not good. They came to a point where he was
(15:13):
charging my family seven thousand dollars. My grandmother had to
work give the money to my mother to give to him.
So it came to a point where where the payment
was supposed to be done, he was claiming that he
was still short two thousand dollars and if he didn't
get it, my case is gonna full apart. Mark, did
he visit you in prison? Did he prepare for the
case at all? He navicated prison and visit me. I
would see him when I go to the courtroom in
(15:34):
the back of the courtroom and the holding pins. So
that trial, your grandmother was called to the stand in
your defense, and she testified that you were home with
her on the night of the crime. But no one
seemed to care about that. You know, it's so easy
for them to disparage her as being willing to lie
for her grandson. Then, of course, the female victim who
(15:55):
had been pressured into changing her memory, right of three
assailants changing get to four, she was called to identify you,
but as we know, she was also blindfolded throughout most
of this incident and repeatedly stated that she couldn't remember
what happened. Meanwhile, the other victim in this case maintained
(16:15):
still that there were only three assailants and did not
identify you as one of those assailants. So for a
fleeting moment, this kind of looked like it might have
gone your way, which would have been the right way,
of course, But then this statement from your own cousin
and co defendant, Raphael James, came to light and sealed
your faith. My co defender, Raphael Jays, they say that
(16:38):
he made a statement when he was questioned, and in
his statement they asked him who was all there, and
he said Eddie Vieira, he said Mark Smith. And he
said and my cousin, Mark. You know, this is my cousin.
This is a blood relative, and we're talking about some
as serious as a race. So I guess even though
(16:59):
it was all those in the cases, that it wasn't me.
I think it's because of the ugly and nasty nature
the case that made a lot of people just become
blinded to the truth, an act that in a manner
disregarded truth. Now we know that he later recanted this
statement and excluded you from the crime, but at this
point you were basically doomed. I mean, it arguably all
(17:20):
comes down to him. Had he never told detectives that
spiteful lie to begin with, they would have never been
any motivation for them to obtain that corrupted I d
or to basically coerce the victims to change the number
of assailants from three to four. But of course that's
(17:41):
not how this went. I was really depressed at that
whole thing. I was just waiting fit to be oval,
but I wasn't really listening when the victim pointed at
me and actually said that I rape it. That told
to me, and it was hardbreaking to me because seeing
the victim for the very first time up on the stand.
The store that the crime took place in is a
(18:02):
restaurant that as a kid, me and my female cousins
were going that store and play in the playground area,
So I saw the person before, but I never said
anything to the female in my life. But one of
the things that I noticed was that she was very beautiful.
She had a very very bright aura to herself. And
when I actually seen her for the first time in
(18:23):
that courtroom, up on that and that broke my heart
because in my head I was thinking to myself about
my co defendive rapper. James said right next that, hold up,
you know that I know that girl that they used
to tease me about being infatuated me. I can't really
explain it to was like, he just brokes up in me.
I started crying because someone that in my childhood timeline
(18:44):
who's pass that our cused that I was infatuated. It
ended up being the very source that's condemned me. And
it's because of my cousin. That is a lot. Man,
That is heavy. Right. This whole thing would be hard
enough for anybody to process or or deal with without
all the those other factors mixed in. So there you
are you. I mean, you had no shot of getting
(19:05):
justice in this scenario whatsoever. And the trial, of course
lasted only two days, right, two days for man's life.
So mark the moment that the verdict was read. Do
you even remember what that was like? No, man, I cried,
I broke down. I was trying to tell the judge
for the very last time I wasn't there I told
(19:27):
her that my cousin lied on me. I learned everything
about the case and everything as I was going through
the process. I didn't even know he made a statement
dragging me in, and it devastated me of travel because
I had to sit next to this person that throughout
the whole trial until that statement came out, he was
acting on nice and like he was concerned and telling
me don't worry, I'm gonna beat it and blah blah
(19:49):
blah blah. Ne when the statement come out showing that
he pulled me into it, I couldn't believe that. Yeah,
that just as another layer of horror to this whole scenario. So, okay,
so you're convicted, you're taken away, sentenced to nineteen to
fifty seven years in prison. These numbers couldn't even have
made any sense to you much longer than you have
(20:10):
been alive at this point in time. Right, But we
know that in these cases, when you come up for parole,
if you don't admit guilt, the chance of you getting
out on a crime like this is virtually nothing. So
it's really effectively a life sentence that they gave you
at this point in time, Right, So what happens next?
And how did you survive this entire ordeal? Which prisons
were you win? And how did you find the strength
(20:31):
to survive this impossible situation? You know, I wasn't just
about all the max is in New York State, And
in spite of the harsh criticism and stigma that I
had to carry for all those years, I would admit
that they were prisons where I actually was able to
(20:52):
find peace. There was prisoners, you know, who had great influence,
who was actually able to put the break on a
out of the fund up I was going through in
there because they gave me the benefit of doubt. I
met people that encouraged me just based on hearing me speak.
It was peaceful moments where I was able to tap
into my intellectual abilities. I was able to get education.
(21:15):
I got my g D and there got my barber certificate.
In there. Then I spent a lot of time in
solitary confinement where no one can get to me, even
to sell by yourself. And I embraced those moments where
to another person's solitary confinement may be held to me.
It was refused, it was silace, it was peace. I've
heard other people talk about that. Can of us who
(21:37):
haven't been through it can imagine any of this. But
was there a lowest point while you were in prison
where you actually, you know, we're on the virtual giving
up hope. And there came a point where I was
about to commit suicide. My mind went through all the
things that life has to offer. I actually ruled myself
out of the picture. What happened if I was no
(21:57):
longer here, Yeah, there would be a little bit of
the emotions, There'll be a little bit of this, they'd
be a little bit of that. But just like all
the people I knew, after a while, everything just passes on.
So somehow I got it all, listened to my ad
and said that, you know, it's a waste of time
of me even hanging out, cause it seemed like I
cursed God out, I ripped the Bible up. You know,
I believe that it was no truth for no one
(22:18):
because no one was accepting my truth. It was only
making things harder for me. I never thought I was
coming out because even though I completed my minimum and
I went to parole, they wanted to know the truth,
and my truth and them was a lot. So I
was never getting out there and they know better what
good behaviors I didn't tell those good behaviors was not
(22:42):
getting me up. It was like situation I go. So
(23:06):
you appeal the conviction in but it's denied. You filed
a petition for a bit of habeas corpus, seeking a
new trial, based in part on a statement from Raphael
James that you weren't involved in the crime. But the
petition is denied. Eventually, Eddie Vieira, Mark Smith, and your
cousin Raphael James, they're all released on parole, but you
(23:27):
aren't released because the state, the Parole Board, as usual,
they wanted to hear you admit your guilt to this
crime you didn't commit. They wanted to hear you basically
gravel and you wouldn't do it because you didn't do
the crime. So, okay, tell me about how Nina Morrison
and the Innocence Project got involved in your case and
(23:48):
what happened next. So I was going to low Library
or Research and I got a bunch of organizations that
responded to claims of innocent and I wrote all of them.
A couple of them wrote me back, told me I
was in another state. They really didn't have jurisdiction. It
was jurisdictional issues, and you know, did not I believe
it was. In two thousand nine, I got a letter
(24:09):
from the innocent, probably in the Morrison, telling me that
they're gonna help me. And I was a solitary confinement
when I got that letter that let him made me
feel so good because it just pointed out all the
different reasons why they believe I was in the right.
So I was able to take that letter as a
badge of honor and show it to people in their
security wise and civilian wise, and and make wise that
(24:29):
even if you don't believe my own words, look there's
people who actually believe. You know, those letters from her
and that whole turning point right there was great to me.
But then it this took so long. I didn't think
I was gonna come out anyway, because then she told
me that they couldn't find a forensic evidence. That's what
they was waiting for for years. And then when they
told me that they couldn't find it it was lost
(24:50):
in some laboratory that was destroyed by Hurricane Sandy, I
was crushed. I just started going in about how the
facts was in the record is right, there. What the
hell is they looking for? Is right? It? So Nina
Morrison requests an investigation from the Brooklyn Conviction Review Unit,
which they carried out, and as Sire, you concluded that
the identification process was while it was chest absolute nonsense right,
(25:13):
it had serious problems, taking into account three months had
passed between the crime and the lineup, that after being
through a traumatic event like that blindfolded, that the victim
viewed the line up after having seen your picture, which
is obviously really suggestive. I mean that could contaminate anybody's memory.
And of course all three of the actual culprits, your
(25:35):
cousin add A Bieira and Mark Smith all said that
you had nothing to do with it. They put a
lot of energy in and they came back with evidence
that was consistent with my claim, with what my code
of finer Raffle James claimed at the VR and Mark Smith, both,
according to the investigation, gave up statements that was thorough
(25:55):
and exonerated me. Maybe one decided to just tell the
truth in the and so all these things, put together,
with all the different errors that already existed, paved the
way for me to be exonerated. So that brings us
to December twenty, two thousand seventeen, which is exactly thirty
years after the initial horrendous crime took place. You're joined
(26:16):
by Barry Shack, Nina Morrison, and then also the people
leading the cru at that time, which was Mark Hale
and Lisa Perlman, and King's County District Attorney Eric Gonzalez,
who was sitting in the front row, said that you're
wrongful conviction and this is a direct quote. Happened because
little was known back then about memory retention and retrieval
(26:38):
and their effect on eyeways identification end quote. The case
was finally dismissed with the consent of prosecutors, along with
a conviction for possession of contraband that occurred after you
were incarcerated. So then there you were December twenty, two
thousand seventeen. You're finally freed. Can you tell me about
that day? Like, what the what the how was going
(27:00):
through your mind? Prior to me coming out? I had
to go from this prison to that prison, and interestingly,
one of those trips led me back to Riker Zigna
where it all started. I thought occurred to me the
day that I left Ranker Zion that I was convicted
and depressed and thought my life was over. When I
was going over that bridge to leave Rika Zion to
(27:22):
go to Upstate facility, I said to myself as that
bus was going over bridge, I'm gonna leave my spirit
right here and I don't know when, but someday I'll
be back for you, because I don't want you to
go with me. And the interesting thing is that on
the day that I was leaving to go to court
to come home, at that very moment, as the bus
was on the bridge, I remembered those same words, and
it was like it was just this suspended wait for me.
(27:46):
I just wholesome at that every moment that I received
what I left. I went to court, everybody was there,
you know, people seeing the past, family members, you know,
loved ones. I was going through all kinds of motions.
I got up in front of the court and I
made a statement, I wish I was the hero to
save that girl, because on that day, you know, she
really needed one, but I wasn't there and I couldn't
(28:09):
help out. I am so afraid now about how easy
a person could lie, and the more ugly the lies,
the more people tend to believe is the truth. But
sometimes I worry about the people of jail that didn't
get a chance to prove their innocence and died because
this whole new momentum of criminal justice reform is just
(28:33):
when in history hasn't been that way. So therefore a
whole lot of injustice was always happening. People was going
in there and dying and not coming out. Man. I
could have been one of those people. Man, So you know,
it's scary how destructive a lie could be. The truth
is everything, man. I learned how to understand that and
respect that, so you're at least, but then you're immediately
(28:54):
facing something else you've been working for its full citizenship,
but your conviction and put all that in jeopardy. Right
before I got exonerated, I was scheduled to be deported.
My green card was revoked, and I was up to
the parole board to release me into the hands of Ice,
and from there was straight on the plane, straight back
to Guyana. But in the course of me regaining my
(29:17):
exoneration and ultimately being innocent, and so now I'm going
through the process of getting my naturalization, it's just a
matter of me maintaining focused keeping a good behavior, you know,
and I believe citizenship is important to that because it
will put me in a better position to say and
do a lot and maybe even into into duors that
(29:39):
I would otherwise not be able to. Well. I think
this country owes you a hell of a lot more
than just citizenship. And I'm so glad that the Immigration
Justice Clinic was able to prevent your deportation, where Immigration
and Customs Enforcement inform your lawyers that because all your
criminal convictions were returned, they wouldn't attempt to detain or
(30:01):
deport you, and you were free to seek citizenship and
remain here with your family. And you also have a
book coming out soon, is that right? The Book of
School The Awakening Process, a self empowerment journey. That's beautiful, Mark,
And we'll put links to that, you know where you
can purchase the book and all that stuff in our bio.
(30:21):
So now here we come to closing arguments, which is
my favorite part of the show, and I just want
to thank you Mark for coming here, getting on the
mic and sharing your story. And so how this works
is I'm going to turn my microphone off, but I'm
just gonna kick back in my chair and just listen.
So whatever you feel is left to say, the mic
(30:43):
is yours, you know, to WoT my anxiety experience, you know,
looking back at it, not from my hindsight, and you know,
taking into account all the dysfunctions as going on in
the world, it thrives and capitalizes and create, you know,
livabool conditions for other people to benefit from. So now
the words at a point where they need that in
(31:05):
order to benefit I thought about this while I was
in prison. No crown, no cops, no officers, no facility,
all the different contracts that's connected to that. It's tons
and tons of family that will become impoverished if there
was to remove the element of crime, so capitalizing off
of it, which is creating prisons. And don't get me wrong,
(31:25):
I learned that also prisons or structure, if a person
want to change, they can change for the better. But
the being that the justice system not that it needs
these things in order to function properly. I think it's
an abuse of that justice that the measured by wishes
treats the people who are caught up in these systems.
Is it's cruel and unusual. They're giving out sentences that's
(31:47):
impossible for human It only lives up to seventy five
years to complete triple life two hundred years, three hundred years.
It shows that the value that people have been told
you Lorso justice needs to become more sensitive to that
because at the end of the day of the justice
system is there to correct and fix people and put
them back in the position of function in a way
that they like. Then they shouldn't be so terminal, they
(32:09):
shouldn't be so extreme. They shouldn't establish means on which
this goal of correction becomes impossible. Bad is always gonna be,
but the extreme to rich bad is punished. That right then,
is something that the justice system needs to correct. And
the reason why I believe ultimately they will fall in
shot because when it comes to the truth, they are
(32:31):
not embracing that truth and it trickles all the way
down to the criminals, you know. So the issue is
the truth. We have to learn how to overall embrace
the significance and the importance of truth, because if we
ultimately lose that, man, then the people at the bottom
is no different from the people at the top. And
if that's the case, then I don't know what to
(32:52):
say about that. Hopefully someone would hear. Hopefully someone would
be sensitive enough to acknowledge the truth of these things
and make the change it's necessary. That's my hope. Thank
you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. I'd like to thank
our production team Connor Hall, Justin Golden, Jeff Clyburne, and
(33:14):
Kevin Wardis with research by Lila Robinson. The music in
this production was supplied by three time OSCAR nominated composer
Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on Instagram at
Wrongful Conviction, on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction podcast, and on
Twitter at wrong Conviction, as well as at Lava for Good.
On all three platforms, you can also follow me on
(33:35):
both TikTok and Instagram at It's Jason flop ronvul Conviction
is the production of Lava for Good Podcasts and association
with Signal Company Number one
Hosts And Creators
Lauren Bright Pacheco
Maggie Freleng
Jason Flom
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