#289 Jason Flom with Andrew Royer

On November 28, 2002, 94-year-old Helen Sailor spent Thanksgiving with her family before returning to her apartment at a high rise building for the elderly and disabled in Elkhart, Indiana. The next day, a health care provider found her strangled to death in her apartment. One of the detectives assigned to the case had a theory about another high rise resident, Lana Canen, and a string of previous burglaries at the building. Investigators coerced a friend of Lana Canen's to give a false statement, implicating Lana and another high rise resident, Andy Royer. After subjecting Royer to a lengthy and intense interrogation, investigators cobbled together a confession. Then, an untrained deputy fabricated a fingerprint match to corroborate both false statements. Lana and Andy were both sentenced to 55 years in prison.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:03):
On Thanksgiving two thousand five, ninety four year old Helen
Sailor returned to her home, a high rise apartment building
for the elderly and disabled in Elkharta, Indiana. When phone
calls went unanswered through the following morning, family members found
Helen strangled to death, allegedly with the lanyard that had
gone missing. A partial print of dubious importance was sent

(00:24):
to the Indiana State Police Lab. Initially, Elkhart p D
had two viable suspects, but the investigation went cold. The
case became a priority again when a new homicide unit
was formed. Detective Mark Daggy had an unfounded theory involving
a string of burglaries and a younger resident the high rise,
Lana Canaan. Investigators pressured a vulnerable friend of Lana's to

(00:47):
claim that she had confessed a murdering Helen Sailor with
another high rise resident. A disabled band named Andy Royer,
who was dragged in for a course of interrogation resulting
in a false confession, took corroborate these false statements. They
pulled the prints from the Indiana State Police Lab and
gave them to an untrained analyst just to get him

(01:07):
to say the print matched Fauna. Andy and Lana went
to trial together, and we're not able to cross examine
each other to point out the glaring inconsistencies in Andy's
recanted statement between the fabricated fingerprint match, false statements, and
outright perjury by law enforcement. Both Atlanta and Andy were
sentenced to fifty five years in prison. This is wrongful conviction.

(01:45):
Welcome back to wrongful conviction. Today. I have a case
out of Elkhart, Indiana, a town that I have a
bad feeling. We're going to start to know really well,
because if just one case can involve so many of
the hallmarks of wrongful convictions in the town of so
few people, what else must be out there? And the
case today involves a false confession, a coerced eyewitness, false
expert testimony, prosecutorial misconduct, official misconduct, and a general reckless

(02:10):
and almost total disregard for the truth, justice, and public safety.
In this case, it's not only about what happened to
an elderly woman, Helen Sailor, but also the two people
who were wrongfully convicted, Blanakin and the man who is
with us today, Andy Royer. Andy, Welcome to wrong for conviction.
Thanks for having me, thank you for joining us. And

(02:33):
with him is his attorney from the Notre Dame Exoneration
Justice Clinic. I've never seen someone who is more effective
at breaking down the blue wall of silence. Elliott Slosar,
Welcome to the show. Thanks so much for having us.
So tell us a little about where this story takes place. Yeah, Elkhart,
you know, small town, Indiana, approximately forty people. I think

(02:57):
it's still considers itself the r V capital of the world.
R vs are less used now than then we're in
the nineties, but it's a town that you know, and
it's hight. People were moving from all over the Midwest
to go work there and work in the factories and
you know, build better lives. You know when the RV
stuff sort of slowed down is when el Khart became

(03:20):
more written with crime. That uptick ultimately produced a lot
of bronpool connections, right, And as we saw all over
the country in the eighties and nineties, you had an
uptick and crime and politicians then ran quote unquote tough
on crime campaigns, which I have to say, it's just nonsense.
It's really just tough on people. Those things never result
in a reduction in crime, but anyway, that led to

(03:41):
an era when the authorities were just playing fast and
loose with the rules and and the civil rights of
our fellow Americans, arresting just about anyone in order to
close cases, which, of course, as we often recognize here
on the show, it leaves the trooper out on the street,
ready and willing to commit more crimes in most cases. Yeah,
the Night think systemically Elkhart have had police misconduct problems

(04:04):
dating back to the sixties and seventies. There was a
real lack of training in place and a real acceptance
and even encouragement of police misconduct, and that stuff did
not end in the nineties. And you know, they've had
a lot of wrong pol convictions, five exonerations so far,
five exonerations out of a population of fifty thousand, five exonerations.

(04:27):
You know, we've got like another dozen wrongfully convicted clients
in Malkhart who are still trying to come home. And
that's only like the tip of what we're uncovering there, right,
So we're talking about seventeen out of a population of
fifty thousand, and those are just the ones we know about.
I mean just to give you a comparison. By the way,
they've been three hundred thirty exonerations in New York City.

(04:47):
Now there are plenty more people fighting for justice as
we speak, innocent as could be, but still three hundred
and thirty in a city of about eight and a
half million people. That nets out to about four per
one hundred thousand. I think per capita. Elkhart, Indiana, the
city will be the wrongful conviction capital in the US. Yeah,

(05:08):
you know. I read another case out of Elkhart, a
guy named Edgar Garrett in the nineties when interrogations were
all video recorded. It's a false confession case which preceded Andy's.
But Edgar Garrett was acquitted because the jury saw the interrogation.
And I bring it up to illustrate the systemic problem
in Elkhart. Can you tell us about that case? What

(05:28):
happened in the case with Edgar Garrett? He was a
father accused of murdering his child. The child wasn't found yet.
The police interrogated him for twelve hours and like back,
it's all video recorded, same interrogation rooms. As you know, Andy,
a decade later, when that interrogation was going on, it

(05:50):
produced a false confession where edgar Garrett falsely confessed to
killing his daughter by hitting her over the head with
like a pipe. They hadn't found the body yet. They
then took Garrett to the crime scene, did a reenactment
with him. A couple of weeks later, they find the body.
The daughter is stabbed to death like dozens and dozens

(06:10):
of times. She wasn't killed by being hit in the head,
and they're like, oh, shoot, so like in hell cart
what they did. They went forward with the death penalty trial.
The jury was shown the interrogation video. They found a
Garrett not guilty, and the jurors were interviewed and what
they said was, we saw that it was the cops confession,

(06:33):
that Garrett was just repeating it, that they brow beat
him into a false confession. And I mean, this is
why we obviously and desperately need videotaping of all interactions
with police. I'm talking about identification proceedings, witness interviews, interrogations,
because when a jury witnesses how these things go down,

(06:55):
they could better assess the validity of each of these
pieces of evidence. Percent So they do this day line episode,
the elected prosecutors on their sky Michael Constina, and they're like, boy,
you know, Mr Constantino, this seems like you've got a problem.
Like the guy confessed in a different way than the
daughter was killed. That's a real problem, you know. Weren't
you concerned about that? He's like, well, you know, it

(07:17):
wasn't good for the case, which of course begs the
question why did they go forward with the prosecution, let
alone go for the death pedal. Yeah, so he went
forward with it anyways, And so at the end of
the episode, there's this fascinating thing where they're like, and
we've spoken to the city of Elkhart and they have
now changed our policies and they were no longer a
video recording interrogations. Okay, So, faced with the reality that

(07:41):
this man had not killed his daughter and was coerced
at the saying that he had, the remedy was not
to reprimand the officer figured out some safeguards against getting
false confessions. No, their solution was to remove the transparency,
and that of course set the stage for what happened
in Andy's case. But before we get into that aspect
of it, let's go back to before any of this

(08:01):
happened Andy, what was your life like growing up in Elkhart.
Can you tell us a little bit about your childhood.
I had a stepdad and he was around for us
all the time and it turned out good. So, and
what were some of your favorite things to do? Swimming
and playing baseball? Junior minor leagues? Wow, junior minor leagues.

(08:22):
You must have been a pretty decent athlete there, you know,
it was it was It kept me busy during the summer.
So you kept busy and never were in trouble with
the police. What about schools and bs and great? So
you excelled in sports and in school, but then you
later went on to qualify to live in a high
rise building specifically for elderly people and people with disabilities

(08:43):
because of a tragic accident. Do you feel comfortable telling
us about that. I don't want to. I had totally understand.
Is it okay if Elliott tells us about it. Andy
was working and suffered, you know, a really really tragic
accident while working, you know, one of those telephone poles.
He pushed somebody out of the way it was going
to fall in another colleague, and it caused for Andy

(09:05):
to suffer a significant traumatic injury to his hand, and
so he's lost part of his middle finger, he only
has half of it. He saved somebody's life in the process.
But the fascinating thing was that the trauma that Andy
and Dirt from that experience like rewired his brain, and
so Andy now suffers, you know, significant cognitive functioning disabilities

(09:29):
that like he didn't have as a teenager. Well, Andy,
I know you don't want to talk about it, but
what you did was just straight heroic and it's something
you should be very proud of. I'm proud of it. Yeah,
I would be too. And so you were living in
this high rise, struggling to acclimate and adjust to life
having gone through this tragic accent, and that's when you
befriended Lana Canaan, who ends up the second wrongful conviction survivor.

(09:52):
And this story, now, from what I understand, the detective
in this case had previously had a theory that Lata
may have been responsible or a few burglaries in the
high rise. Now he had nothing to actually back that
up other than that she had dated a maintenance guy
there and could have plausibly theoretically had access to his keys.
So pretty much just pure speculation. But she was on

(10:14):
the mind of at least one detective before all of
this happened. Can you tell us about your relationship to her. Yeah,
I used to hang around her. She didn't seem like trouble.
She just somebody that they'll talk to and just as
a friend. Either of you remember what brought her to
the high rise. My understanding is at Lanta had some
sort of mental health struggle that qualified as a disability

(10:36):
which allowed for her to live there. I'm not sure
the exact type. She was functioning at a much higher
rate than Andy was at the time, and the prosecution
then used that as a way to say that Andy
was the muscle under Lama's control in an incident that
neither of you had anything to do with the murder
of another resident at the high rise, a ninety four

(10:57):
year old blind woman named Helen Sailor. And this blind
woman she lived alone, but she had a home healthcare
worker to his sister in her daily task including building
up her medications, and it's believed that she was killed
sometime in the evening on November Thanksgiving two thousand two,
so they had a family dinner. You know. Helen was
dropped off at the high rise. I think sometime in

(11:19):
the early evening, her home healthcare worker called, as she
usually would to, you know, say hey, I'm going to
be there the next morning to help you out, please,
you know, have the door unlocked or whatever. And there
were some phone calls that were missed that night. The
next morning she also didn't answer, and so ultimately the
home health care nurse arrived, the family came, They unlocked

(11:42):
the door, and inside they found a deceased Helen Sailor,
and one of her relatives was Elkhart p D Lieutenant
Paul Converse, who initially led this investigation. Now, Helen had
been strangled to death, and they believed that it may
have been done with a missing lanyard. Right, so she
had like a leoniard around her neck, would have like
her key on it. They couldn't find that, and so

(12:03):
the thought was that if she was strangled, that it
likely would have been that the perpetrator used that lanyard.
There were no like signs of like forest entry, and
so the police sort of suspected that she either opened
her door volunteerily, or this is somebody who had a key.
There was some like pretty significant physical evidence that was there.

(12:24):
You know, one of the things that they found on
her was like a cranberry like substance, like a sticky
substance around her. And they also found a pill bottle
out on the counter. They ended up recovering a latent
print from that pill bottle that became an issue later
on in the investigation. Yeah, so there's this partial fingerprint
on the pill bottle in an apartment that is frequented

(12:46):
by home healthcare workers. But if that print belonged to
someone who didn't belong in the apartment, like Lanta Canaan,
then that would appear to be damning evidence. Unfortunately, the
subjectivity of fingerprint analysis plays heavily in this case, as
it does in so many cases. Fingerprints do have approbriate value,
but the analysis comes down to a subjective comparison made

(13:09):
by a highly fallible human being. This type of analysis
is hardly as exact as we've all been led to believe. Now,
I encourage our audience to listen to our episode of
Junk Science Romoviction Junk Science, where our host Josh Dubin
does a deep dive on this subject. We're gonna have
it linked in the bio. Please check it out, and
in this case the analysis was later proven to be

(13:30):
wholly unreliable. But let's put a pin in that for now.
So we've got no Warner weapon, a partial print which
may or may not have had anything to do with
the crime, no signs of a break in, which means
the purpose probably either new Miss Sailor or had a
key or forced their way in while the door was
still a lot. They did DNA testing of her fingernails,

(13:52):
detecting only Miss Sailor's DNA, and then you've got what
might be cranberry sauce residue, potentially from somebody thanksgiving leftovers.
It was Thanksgiving, it for all, but hardly anything to
go on. And this investigation happened in almost like phases,
the first of which was before Elkhart p D had
a homicide unit. And in this first phase the detectives

(14:14):
from the Criminal Investigations Division did a surprisingly good job
at developing leads with this little to go on. These
initial leads, there were two really good alternate suspects developed.
The first one and you know this isn't a shocker.
It's like, well, you want to see who the victim
has contact with? How about the guy who delivers her medicine.

(14:34):
And so they looked at this guy, Larry Would. They
went to his apartment. I believe it was the day
that the body was found. He was very, very anxious.
According to the officers, they found his shoes and on
the shoes with blood and they did luminal testing inside
the apartment which confirmed it was blood, and then they
took the shoes and so they had this guy. They

(14:55):
asked Larry at first, they were like, hey, Larry, when's
the last time you saw Helen Sailor? And he's like, oh,
I had. He saw her on Thanksgiving evening after she
got dropped off by her family. You know, I helped
her the elevator. And that becomes important because later when
Larry is confronted in an interrogation like setting at the
car police department, he changes a story and said, oh,

(15:16):
I think I actually went on the elevator with her
and I may have walked her into the apartment. And
so Larry would, by all respects, was like the last
person to see Helen Sailor alive. He would later fail
a polygraph exam. You know, I know polygraph is an
admissible evidence in court, but like this is a guy
that like should have like raised every single red flag.

(15:39):
So that was like suspect number one. Suspect number two
is this guy named Tony Thomas who was like visiting
his grandmother at the high rise over that weekend. He
had previously been convicted of murder and like Kansas or somewhere,
and was acting very very suspicious that day. And the
early investigation they spoke to people who saw Tony Thomas

(16:01):
on the elevator clicking the buttons for every floor. And
this would have been after the time that Helen Saylor
got home, and so there was some real question as
to whether he may have gotten off on the floor
that Helen lived on and tried to take money that way,
because he was asking other people for money in the
high rise. What's fascinating about Tony Thomas. You would think, hey,

(16:22):
convicted murder, you bring him into the police station, you'd
interrogate him. There's nothing indicating that they ever did that.
And the initial investigators they didn't charge anybody, and eventually
they consider the case to be cold. And so I
think by like the summer of two thousand three, so
this is, you know, roughly six seven months later. That's

(16:42):
when the car Police Department for in their homicide unit.
Lieutenant Converse was in charge of it. This case became
the first case that the homicide unit ever investigated, and
Lieutenant Converse, we believe you know, was determined to close
the case for a relative of his who got killed.
But instead of backing those promising leads from phase one
of the investigation, the newly formed homicide unit assigned the

(17:05):
case to lead Detective Carl Conway and Detective Mark Daggi,
who took the case in the wrong direction. So what
happens in this next phase of the investigation. Phase two
of the investigation was how they framed Indy and Lana.
By like August two three, this was a cold case
and Daggie was like obsessed with Lana Keenan, Like he

(17:28):
thought that Lana had committed burglaries in the high rise
because she was dating this maintenance worker, so she would
have access to a key, he thought. And he can
never develop probably cause to charge with any of those burglaries.
He like, he kept coming after and coming after, can
never charge on Lana was like, I didn't do any
of this stuff, you know, leave me alone. You're like
really annoying me. And so Diaggy couldn't get her on this.
So when him and Conway team up, they're like, oh,

(17:49):
we're gonna go get a long of canan. So on
September one, two three, Lana Caden Anita Porter or driven
in a car and they get pulled over for like
super minor traffic and fractions. And at the time, Nina
Porter was on prole so she had a lot at risk.
But in that interaction, Nina Porter was never like, I

(18:10):
have information about a murder, nothing like that. The only
thing of value was that Lana was taken into custody
as a result of that traffic stop. Detective Conway found
out and he talked to the patrol officer, and troll
officer was like, oh, yeah, Lana was with this woman
named Nina Porter. And so Conway took it on his
own volition to show up a Nina Porter's house the

(18:31):
next day. And from what I understand is that Carl
Conway was known for being a case closer, so to speak,
who would use intimidation tactics to get what he wanted. Yeah, well,
I think now Detective Conway is known for all of
his feelings in this particular case, it's what led to
the end of his career. But you know he had
a reputation in the department for getting confessions and closing cases.

(18:56):
I mean, the guy is massive. He's like pro pub
least six five six six two three hundred pounds. Sounds
like a really scary guy in the interrogation room. Huh,
Andy he was. He's not somebody you won't show up
on your front doorstep either, like he did with Nina Porter.
And the details of that interaction didn't come out until

(19:17):
Nina testified about fifteen or sixteen years later in post conviction.
Can you tell us what she said about that? What
Nina Porter says is that Conway shows up at her house,
threatening her from the jump to tell her something about
implicating Lana Keenan and the murder of Helen Sailor, and
Nina's like, I don't know anything. I don't know anything.
He then threatens to like violate her prole have her
kids removed, then takes her down to the police station

(19:40):
and interrogates the heck out of this woman who is
super vulnerable. At some point he promises her reward too,
because you know reward many have been offering up by
the home healthcare company that you know assisted Helen Taylor,
and so like just coerces the heck out of this
woman for hours to fabricate a false statement implicating Lana

(20:01):
and Andy and the murder of Helen Sailor. It is
so freaking disturbing how normalized that tactic of threatening to
take someone's children away is for the police. It's like
as common as doughnuts, but much more sinister. And Nina
later in post conviction had so much more to say
about the absurd way in which Conway took this false statement.

(20:21):
So during a recorded to even imagine this, Conaways showing
her pictures and on the back of it there were
phrases that she was supposed to repeat once he turned
the recorder on. The story was that Lana keenan over
the fourth of July holiday like stalled Nina Porter at
the high Rise picnic or something. It was just like
talking about killing Helen Sailor, and like very vague ways.

(20:44):
And one of the things she remembered that she was
supposed to say was that Lana told her thanksgiving, thanks
for giving death, that that's what thanksgiving mentor, which is
an absurd thing. And then you made some other comment
implicating her and Andy and the murder by saying that
and I had like complete control over Andy, and so
she was basically the brains and Andy was lebron and

(21:06):
that was something that you know, the police had fed
to her as well. Okay, so now they have the
probable cause they needed to drag you in, Lana, and
for question. Lana denied Eddie Voman and was initially let go.
But that's not how it went with you. Andy. Tell
us about when they picked you up. I was in
my apartment and uh, I heard a knock on the door,
and they so, do you want to come down? And

(21:29):
we want to question you know, I thought I thought
nothing of it. I wasn't even sure what it was
for because I I had never heard about the murder.
So and when they interrogated you over the course of
September three and fourth, how did they come at you?
What did they say to you? We know you have
ties with Lanta, and what do you means to you?
And what do you know about the murderer? And and

(21:52):
what I was trying to say is I didn't have
nothing to do with it. I told him that too.
He just kept twisting and twisting away, repeating themselves asking
me would you choke her with and how did you
get in the door? And how was Landa involved with this?
And it's not like they were oblivious to your cognitive impairment. Hell,

(22:12):
it was part of their theory of how Lana could
control you. So at some point, after hours of this
intense pressure, you finally gave in, thinking that you'd be
able to leave if you said what they wanted? Is
that accurate? I just I gave up. They fed me
lines and and as we have seen in so many

(22:36):
false confessions, the lines that they fed you ended up
being the only things that could be verified, while the
information that solely came from you, Andy was riddled with falsehoods, nonsense,
and inconsistencies for the simple and obvious reason that you
knew nothing about the crime. And Elliott, you were able
to get Conway to admit to this, right, which is insane?

(22:58):
Can you take us through that? But Conway eventually admitted
to this is like an Andy's evidentially hearing was that
the only two pieces of information that they were able
to corroborate they were actually true was the fact that
he lived in the high rise at the time of
the murder, and that he knew Lana Keenan. Everything else

(23:20):
that was like in his statement was proven to either
be false or Detective Conway admitted defeating Andy. First, you know,
a couple of the examples of the stuff that was
false is they got Andy to say that he sold
Helen sailors, like some for jewelry or something at like
a pawn shop. They went to the pawn shop. The

(23:41):
records objectively proved that Andy Royer never sold anything there.
Another thing is they got Andy to say that like
he cleaned up the apartment with some like cowels and
threw them down the shoot the trash shoot. During the
underlying investigation, they actually learned that the trash shoot was
broken from like the twelfth floor down or something like that.

(24:03):
There was also another thing where you know, they're like,
you know, what liquid did you pour on her? And
Andy said milk? That was wrong because they knew it
was like a cranberry sauce substance wasn't milk. So like,
unless Conway actually was telling him stuff that was consistent
with the investigation, everything else was objectively wrong and they
knew that. And you know, the biggest piece of evidence

(24:26):
that we have that showed the unreliability of the statement
was after the statement, according to Detective Conway's report, Andy
asked can I go home now? And Conway how to
tell Andy that he just gave a confession to murder
and didn't even know right. The Pacers Foundation is a

(24:58):
proud supporter of this episode of awful conviction and of
the Last Mile organization, which provides business and tech training
to help incarcerated individuals successfully and permanently re enter the workforce.
The Pacers Foundation is committed to improving the lives of
Hoosiers across Indiana, supporting organizations that are dedicated primarily to
helping young people and students. For more information on the

(25:20):
work of the Pacers Foundation or the Last Mile program,
visit Pacers Foundation dot org or the Last Mile dot org.
So what they did, though, was because the the statement
was so bodged, as they captain Indie and custody at
the police department overnight after charging him with murder so

(25:43):
that they can interrogate him the next day, which like
never happens. If you get a confession that's legitimate, why
need you to keep this guy the next day? And
the interrogame again he had already been charged with murder.
They kept him overnight, they didn't give him an attorney,
he didn't get to go to court, and then they
did the whole thing the next day, hoping that they
could like get a more reliable statement that wasn't so

(26:05):
obviously fabricated by coercion. Yeah, imagine if they still had
to worry about their misconduct being videotaped for a jury
to see. And yet somehow there's still has room to
get even worse. While this two day interrogations going on,
with this very aggressive, psychologically coercive interrogator and Andy, who's

(26:30):
got the mind of a child, there are people watching
the interrogation. And we only found this out after Andy
was exonerated. Was one of the people watching it was
the person who ultimately prosecuted him. That she was actually
sitting there watching this psychologically coercive interrogation take place and
doing nothing about it. What's her name again, Vicky Becker?

(26:51):
Vicky Becker, And she's now the elected prosecutor you about
our county. Our hope is that we can end that
she was at the interrogete stion. She was the person
who put on detective Conway to testify a trial about
the interrogation actually elicited from him. Now, did you feed
Mr roy or any information? Conway's like, Oh, No, wouldn't

(27:13):
do that because I knew he had a mental disability.
Wouldn't feed him a single fact. If she was there
during the interrogation, which she says she is, she would
have known what Conway now admits, which is that he
fed Andy all the information that actually aligned with the
facts of the case. Whatever those facts were, it came
from Conway's mouth. And in Detective Conway's own report, he

(27:35):
admitted that before he took Andy's confession that Andy was confused,
he was fatigued, and he's later admitted that he believed
that Andy was mentally broken before he ever took the statement.
And had this been videotaped, like Edgar Garris's interrogation, had
the jury seen this, it would have impeached everything, all

(27:56):
the lies the detective Conway had to say a trial,
And if the evidence in this case wasn't fraudulent enough,
that brings us to the only physical evidence, the fingerprint.
So in phase one they sent the medicine bottle and
other physical evidence off to the Indiana State Police lab
and eventually they sent finger prints of suspects a K
standards for comparison. But in Phase two, when Conaway and

(28:20):
Daggie got involved, something telling happened with the Prince Conway
and Daggie story was that Andy and Lana first came
on their radar through Nina Porter's coerce statement in September
two thousand three. In August of two thousand three, though
before Nina and Lana were pulled over, the ol Car
Police Department removed the physical evidence from the Indiana c

(28:42):
Police laboratory and sent it to a deputy sheriff at
the Car County Sheriff's Department named Dennis Chapman for him
to compare the latent print to Andy Royer standard. Not
only Andy, but but Lana can as well. They were
literally targeting Lana and Andy before they manufactured that false

(29:04):
evidence during the first week of September. Chapman, come to
find out, never trained to do lating comparisons at all,
And Dennis Chapman writes like a two page report. It
says that he matches the print from the medicine bottle
to the left peaky finger of Lana Canon come to

(29:24):
find out it ended up not being a peaky figure
at all. It was like the index finger to somebody.
He excluded a home healthcare worker, so like he got
the finger wrong, the person wrong, and then he somehow
excluded the right person, which all of that shows it
was just like a total fabrication. Like this guy was
not doing a legitimate comparison. He was just doing whatever

(29:46):
the Conway and EPD wanted him to do. You might
as well have my dog look at it. I mean
it would be just the same, right, because like Chapman
is a total fraud anyways. Right, And that's even unfair
to my dog because Freddie would never do something. Yeah,
so they so like we see him as like Elkhart's
hired gun. You know, this untrained, unqualified deputy sheriff that

(30:10):
when the All Car Prosecutor's Office or the Car Police
Department was concerned that the Indian Police Laboratory wouldn't give
them the findings that they want, they would remove it
and send it to this illegitimate proxy who would then
fabricated opinion for them for whoever their suspect was. I
shuddered to think. But how many other cases has Chapman

(30:32):
been involved in. So we are digging in a Chapman.
Now he had been used by the All Car Police
Department to do Layton print comparisons dating back to the es.
So we actually have another wrongful conviction case from el Car.
That's a murder from like two thousand that Vicky Becker
was the prosecutor on and Lo and Behold. The week

(30:54):
before trial in that case, Dennis Chapman was brought in
to exclude all the alternative suspects from the print left
on what they alleged was a murder weapon. Wow, this
is a Tandora's box of of evil. And he only
stopped giving them opinions in eleven ish when Lana Kenyan's

(31:14):
post conviction petition unraveled the fact that his opinion was
false all along. So almost twenty years worth of cases,
this guy Chapman, who has no formal training to do
fingerprint analysis, would just come in and testify as an expert.
You've got a real problem in Neil cart and Andy
was just another one of their countless victims. So they

(31:37):
had this in putting this in quotation marks fingerprint match
Nina Porter saying that Lanta confessed to her and implicated
you Andy, and then they had Andy's false confession. Andy,
you had been in jail for two years now, and
they came to see you with your defense attorney to
see if they could get you to testify and repeat
your false confession. But this time he wouldn't do it.

(31:59):
How did that all play out? They just kept asking
me questions again and making sure everything was okay, And
I was like, no, I don't. I didn't have nothing
to do with the murder. Of course they knew that already.
So now it's August two thousand five and you walk
into court. What was that like? I felt like a
stiff board walking down the hall and going into sit

(32:21):
down in the courtroom. And and Vicky Becker was, well,
we got this and we got that. And they never
asked me or my attorney never did anything at the time. Yeah,
you had a defense attorney who had just heard you
vehemently recan't your false confession. Yet he made no effort
to suppress that statement. And from what I understand, when

(32:41):
he was given a list of false confession experts like
Dr Richard Leo Dr Off, she that he called exactly
zero of the names on that list up to testify
and Elliott. We've seen plenty of cases with multiple code offendants,
but this one really is problematic and it's hard to
believe this was allowed to go forward as one trial.

(33:02):
Can you explain what I'm talking about, because like, oh,
hand El Carter Indiana, where you have a situation where
you have two codefendants, one of them falsely confesses and
implicates his other co defendant, and then Nina Porter attributes
a confession a Lana Keenan that the state then tries
to use against Andy. So it's constitutionally problematic because Lana

(33:25):
can't force Andy on the stand, like he has a
right to not testify. Andy can't put Lawn on the
stand to say that she never made these statements to
Nina Porter, and the states like using all of this
evidence to convict both of them at the same time,
Like the trial should have been severed. You know, the
trial was about two days excluding jury sellection, and you know,

(33:47):
the state just like completely ran over the defense. So
you had the latent print fabrication, introduce a trial. Conway
goes up there, introduces Andy's two recorded statements, which total
and length are roughly just over an hour combined. So
like you know, you basically have like eight to nine
hours of unrecorded interrogation where Andy, who had the mind

(34:11):
of a child, is psychologically coerced into giving a false confession,
fed all the facts. Conway testified the trial in response
to questioning by Miss Becker, never fed him any information,
you know, never coerced him anyway, wouldn't do that, you know,
knew that he had a disability. All of that a lie.
And then Nina Porter went up there on the stand

(34:33):
and testify that Lana gave this confession to her to
do in the murder, you know, thanksgiving, thanks for giving death,
and that she had complete control over Andy to the
extent that if Lana said Andy go stand in the rain,
that he would go do it. And the state and
closing arguments were like, the print corroborates the confession, the
confession corroborates, need a porter, need a porter corroborates both

(34:56):
of it. Look at everything together, you've got your puzzle.
Convict these people and the jury did what the prosecutors wanted,
and did they present anything in your defense at all?
I felt it was a no witnesses, no defense witnesses,
and not even like no defense witnesses, but like the
police officers went up there and testified to the jury

(35:18):
that they never had any alternate suspects, and we know
that's a lie. Like Larry Wood Tony Thomas, people were
straight up committing perjury left and right. So, Andy, when
you saw this circus unfolding in front of you, did
you still hold out any hope that the jury would
come back in and get it right? I was hoping
to us, but as we know, with all the lying

(35:42):
and fabricated evidence, it was probably well, it's hard to
somewhere near impossible for them to see the truth. So
can you tell us about that awful moment when they
did get it so wrong? I've felt nothingness. I was
just numb. It took me back to the jails, and

(36:07):
I just walked in like not seeing a ghost, But
I was a ghost. I got to know people right

(36:32):
off to hand, and I found me a job, so
I kept busy most of the time working on a
wood factory making skids, and the people from the outside
come and pick up the skids, and we got paid
for it. We got like fifty cents an hour, and
if we got so many skids one we got five

(36:53):
or it was either five cents or a penny for
each kid that got done. So a lot of people
don't know a very important and insidious thing about the
thirteenth Amendment, which is that it did end slavery, but
they left a loophole in there, and the loophole is
that it doesn't apply to people who aren't free. So

(37:15):
that meant that if they put people behind bars like
they did to you Andie, they can enslave you. They
can pay. In some states they pay four cents an
hour in charge attacks on top of that, other states
is nineteen cents an hour, and tons of products everyday,
products that many of us use, license plate twists are
made in these prisons. Big corporations used a slave labor.

(37:38):
It's a huge problem, and it creates a perverse and
reverse inceative for people to lock up other people because
there's money in it. So here you have a system
in Elkhart where it appears they deliberately wrongfully convicted Andie
and countless others at a rate that's at least get this,
eight times higher per capita than a place like New York,

(37:58):
which has a long and ordered history of lawful convictions,
and the same prosecutor that it's still in office today.
Made Andy and so many others essentially into slaves. Yes,
I worked in the kitchen to you, and they pay
fifty cents an hour. So were you able to make
any friends while you were in there? Lots of friends

(38:20):
played board games. I was on the Houn dorm people
that didn't get in trouble if you got one little
ride up here to get kicked out. And I was
there for two years and never got a ride up.
And you can go outside and walk around to play basketball,
and h caught a ride up once before I got

(38:43):
in the outer Hono dorm. I fell asleep and went
to the chow hall. Then I went back and went
to chow hall again, and uh, they had a scanner
and I got a I actually got two meals. So
this is probably like the worst thing you've ever done.
Needless to say, you didn't belong there and desperately needed help,

(39:06):
and your first appellate lawyer did bring a compelling ineffective
assistance claim based on the fact that your trial lawyer
never tried to suppress the false confession of his disabled
client and never bothered to call a false confession expert
like Dr Leo or Dr Afshi. And the one thing
that sticks out of my mind here is that the
trial lawyer said in his own defense that this was

(39:29):
actual strategy. Okay, he said that in Elkhart, the jury
wasn't going to believe an expert from outside the community.
From outside the community, Yeah, But what's ironic about this
logic here is that because Dennis Chapman's from within the community,
they'll believe him, right. I mean, it was an outrageous
explanation by the attorney, But the judge overseeing that claim

(39:52):
was this guy, Terry Shoemaker. He was the prosecutor on
Agregaratt's case who we found out exclude did Richard off
She from testifying as a false confession expert at that
mid Ninetese trial, saying false confession expert testimony should never
be before a jury because it invades the province of
the jury. So when this guy now who's on the

(40:14):
on the bench, he's never like, hey, Mr Royer, just
wants you to know. As a prosecutor, I took the
position that these types of people should never be allowed
in a courtroom. Never disclosed. It denied Andy's post conviction position.
He sat in prison for like another decade, the judge
should have refused himself. And that's when I think, you know,
we started talking about systemic misconduct. I mean, frankly, when

(40:36):
I said the words that there were systemic police and
prosecutory most conduct that caused wrongfuell convictions in al Carda, Indiana,
including Andy Royers, the state filed a motion for an
injunction against me. The state court judge found that, like
when I said systemic misconduct, that that was defamatory. You
know what's amusing now is that that judge, formerle Car
Canny prosecutor, she withheld from us that she was also

(40:58):
married to a former corrupt car cop in the nineties. Right,
Like this is like when you talk about systemic, it's
like you're going before judges who are former prosecutors married
Alkhart police officers. Like that is the system in our
cart that is like allowed for people like Andy to
get wrongfully convicted in like open view. The whole system

(41:19):
is stacked. You don't have a chance, and that's how
you end up with five going on seventeen exonerations and
counting in a town of fifty tho. So, Andy, how
did you end up getting in touch with Elliott to uh,
one of my lawyers, Michael Sutherland. You put a newspaper
article out saying how wrongfully I was done, and Elliott

(41:40):
happened to see it and took up the case from there. Yeah,
so it's funny. You know, this goes back to the
systemic a car misconduct. By the time that I found
out about Andy's keys, we had another client who is
agony I identify the name of Keith Cooper, who we'd
like to cover in the very near future, if you'll
both join. Yeah, and so Keith had been wrongfully convicted.

(42:04):
You know, he was framed for a crime he didn't
commit to, and the indie story started like a wrongful
conviction series, I want to say, in liketen. Keith then
was still trying to get a part in an actual
innocence parton from the governor, and as part of that
series they did a story ultimately on Andy. I want
to say. This was like, so, okay, you saw the article,

(42:25):
you and Sutherland got in touch. What happened next? You know,
I was like desperate to get my hands on the material.
My wife and I were going on a vacation to
Mexico and I had just gotten like the trial transcripts
and I just remember that whole vacation, like being on
the beach under an umbrella. Read through the whole trial
was like ringing through the police reports and was just like,

(42:46):
oh my god, this guy got so framed. You know.
So by this time, we had a project going at
Notre Dame Law School in Andy's case was the first
one that we ever worked on. And so we had
a number of like great students on the keys and
incredible investigator named Patty, and we went out and like
knocked on a ton of doors. So I'm going to
imagine that Nina Porter got a visit. Yeah, Nina Porter

(43:08):
was actually the first witness that we talked to. You
by then, you know, to put this in context. By
time we talked to Nina Porter, Lana Keenan, his code defendant,
was exonerated and and sought civil compensation, and he's like
still sitting there. You know, even the attorney would have
had this before us. He filed a motion for leave
to even file a post conviction potition, and the appellate

(43:29):
court denied, like they weren't letting Andy Rorior even get
back to court. I mean, it was like fundamentally outrageous.
So Lana, she got an incredible post conviction lawyer, kar
Winnicky who dug into the lane print stuff, you know,
like Dennis Chapman, total fraud. Karwinnick, he is the one
who unraveled that fraud. They ended up getting a lane

(43:51):
print expert excluded Lana Keenan found all these differences that
couldn't be explained away. That science is very subjective. What's
fast and inning is They filed post conviction petition. State
challenges it. At some point, the state sends the print
materials off to the n NFT Police Lab in the st.
Police laps like this excludes her. They still go to

(44:14):
an evidentuary hearing. Even though the state lab says not
a lot of Keenan's, the private person says not a
lot of Keenan's. Right around the time of the aventuary hearing,
Chapman gets a chance to look at it and sees
the print and immediately starts admitting that he got it wrong.
That was after he already saw, you know what the

(44:35):
private expert was saying, so he knew that other people
were saying that he was wrong. By then, they or
the aventure hearing, the state does an aggressive cross examination
of Chapman, like it was self preservation mode. You know,
Bicky Becker still prosecutor in the office. She put him
on the stand trial. It was a different deputy prosecutor
doing the cross but it was like saving his boss, right,

(44:57):
Like make this guy look like he's a fraud, that
he duped of us and that none of us knew
about it all along, to save face for the system
as a whole, exactly. So. Then eventually before ruling has made,
the state agrees to a new trial for Launa and
the case gets dismissed. Now one would think this should
have an effect on her co defend and Andy. It's

(45:18):
so crazy. They used that evidence at Andy's trial, and
still they were like, you know what, We've got this
disabled guy. We're just gonna leave him in prison. He
hasn't had the rights representation, he hasn't had the funds
for private representation. We're gonna leave in there. We're going
to see if they're able to unravel everything else that happened.
All right, So back to Nina Porter, one of our

(45:39):
law students, me and our investigator, we knocked on Nina
Porter's door. She was like, I've been waiting fifteen years
for somebody to ask me how this whole thing came about.
And she told us in painful detail how she was
coerced into lying against Andy and Launa for prime ating command.
So Nina Order recanted the printice Toast, which brings us

(46:02):
to the false confession. So did you reach out to
any of the false confession experts that Andy's trial attorney
should have called in the first place. Well, we called
Dr Leo. He began digging through the material. But what
really changed things? In addition to our investigation, you know,
so like patting the students knocked on doors, got a
ton of affidavits, people implicating Larry Wood, people implicating Tony Thomas.

(46:25):
We also had a former out car police officer, Larry Towns.
He actually called Mark Daggie and was recording the entire
conversation and Larry was chatting him up about this case.
And Daggie admitted there that the interrogation he witnessed it.
He said he believed that it was actually a video
recorded and that the interrogation was super leading and among

(46:46):
the worst he had ever seen. He had no idea
that a recorder was on you know, this was like
two police officers talking to each other, and so we
made these admissions. Towns also called another person who was
involved in the investigation watched the interrogation as person Peggy's either,
and she admitted that she always believed Andy was innocent.
She was the one who signed the charging documents, who

(47:07):
sought the warrant for Andy's arrest for the murder, and
was admitting in this call, I always thought that guy
was in a sense. They didn't think that Larry would
ever tell They surely didn't think that the Southern Police
officer would ever record them, but he did because he
was so fundamentally outraged. Okay, so we not only have
an expert poking huge holes in the false confession, but
also two people who were in the room who didn't

(47:29):
think that anyone would be breaking down their sacred blue
wall of silence. But then, on top of that, your
involvement in Keith Cooper's case had a direct effect on Andy,
as it turns out, and Keith Cooper's wrong Ulle connection lawsuit,
we were able to do depositions of Conway and Daggie,
and that's where things finally unraveled because those depositions uncovered

(47:49):
the truth about what happened the interrogation room. Conway finally
admitted defeating Andy information, admitted that he believed that he
was psychologically broken down, admitted it he was informed prior
to the interrogation that Andy was mentally disabled and had
the mind of a child, and then testified under oath
that he disregarded all of that, gave no accommodations to

(48:10):
a disability, Like this is all like in a deposition.
You know, this guy was making all these admissions that
were like completely contrary to what he testified to a trial. Elliott,
I gotta hand it to you, man, what you were
able to do here, This is not normal. I mean,
this is nothing short of and I'm not like a
magical thinker, but this ship is just miraculous. The things

(48:32):
you've been able to uncover are shocking. And what was
also shocking that we found out through the depositions was
that Conway was removed from the homicide unit of the
car Police Department before Andy's two thousand five trial from
misconduct in another interrogation in a different homicide case. Was removed.

(48:53):
So we got to the bottom of it and ultimately
had his supervisor testified for US at the at Entry
hearing that he removed Conway because he believed that he
lied in order to interrogate another person without their council president,
and that his lie in that case, the supervisor believe
could jeopardize the integrity of any further criminal investigations that

(49:15):
he worked on and would cause credibility issues a trial,
so they removed him from the homicide unit. This all
happened before Andy's trial. Conway was like the most important
witness at Andy's trial because like only Conway could either
admit or deny what happened the interrogation room before a
recorder was turned on. And yet the state withheld the
fact that this guy was removed from homicide due to

(49:37):
issues with his credibility and integrity. Conway also further admitted
defeating Andy all the information and that Vickie Becker watched
it all happen and put Conway on the stand to
lie anyway, and Chapman had already been exposed as a
frauded lata's post conviction and by the way, Dennis Chapman,
we ultimately got his personnel file. What Dennis Chapman admitted

(49:57):
after Keenan got exonerated. Chapman had to sit down with
the sheriff and explain how he botched that print so badly.
And in that interview he said that he was pressured
by el Car police officers to form an opinion. That
they told him the theory of the case that Lana
Canan was the brains, that Andy Warrior was the braun,

(50:18):
that Andy couldn't do this on his own, so they
fed him who they wanted him to I D and
then pressured him into making that fabricated I D. You
also had those recordings of Daggie and that supervisor Day
repeated what he had said on the recording on the
stand as well. I mean, like the state's case imploded.
A Nina Porter testified for us to she told the

(50:40):
court how she was coerced into repeating a fabricaid statement.
And by the way, while Andy was like wrongfully convicted,
you know, within like forty eight hours of that, Daggie
and another officer went and gave her the two thousand
dollar reward that was never disclosed. Like nobody ever knew
that she was pressured into lying and that like, oh,
as soon as she got off the stand, she was
gonna be given thousands of dollars. So there they are

(51:02):
using the carrot and the stick. So how did it
all end up with Andy being here with us today?
When was this this long overdue hearing September into October
twenty And the fascinating part about it is that we
agree to only litigate like really like a fourth of
what it was in our petition. Yeah, we were like Judge,
you know, like let's just do five or six issues

(51:24):
because if we went on those issues, we don't need
to get to the other twenty Wow. So you really
were ready to embarrass the state further than you even
needed to in order to convince the court that a
new trial was in order, and the court agreed with you.
So Andy, what was it like watching this ship show
from your perspective? Like there was a superman on my side?

(51:47):
And uh, I just gonnat believe the lawyers before Elliott
didn't do anything, you know what I mean? Just they
just here you go give it to the prosecutor. Yeah,
so safe to say that Elliott is a good guy
and your book, Yes, he's a cool guy. He's got
the record straight now, so he's all right around. Great guy.

(52:09):
Thanks Andy, thank you. So you've just watched Superman come
in and kick some serious ass, right, right, But this
being el card, they're not going to just start doing
the right thing. Now. We got this case kicked out
of car County. That's why you need to get justice, right. So,
like we got that judge to recused herself. She actually
found it was defamatory when I said that Andy was
wrongfully convicted. Like it wasn't just like systemic misconduct. It

(52:32):
was like this judge is like the most unfair judge
that we could ever be before. And how this judge
is oblivious to the system she's been overseeing is ridiculous.
But okay, yeah, so Andy's case outside of our Car Canyon,
we litigated in Kosciosco County before this super kind, really smart,
fair judge. The whole proceeding was like very very fair

(52:54):
to both sides, and we felt like we had a
real chance given the case that we put on, and
we submitted proposed fine beeks after the hearing, the state
did as well, and we waited and when that phone
call happened, they're like, hey, Elliott, how far away are you?
Because Andy is ready to get picked up. The judge
granted a new trial in March thirty one, and I

(53:14):
was like in a meeting with other students on a
different Elkhart Wrongfolk conviction case. Like we were in a
zoom meeting because everything was to resume then, and I
was like, oh my god, guys, Oh my god, and
he just got a new trial, He's getting released. I
gotta go. And I ran upstairs put on a suit.
I was like calling Andy's parents, Jeanie and Mike, and

(53:35):
you know, obviously one of the most incredible phone calls
that I'll ever have, and like, and he's coming home, Like,
we've all got to figure this out. Somebody go by mask,
you know, Like my wife was like like seven months
pregnant the time. Like I wasn't leaving the house at all. Right,
So this was the beginning of the pandemic. No one
knew how bad this was going to be yet, but
you forged ahead, no hesitation, drove so fast. Called the students,

(53:58):
you know, we all sort of like agreed to to
meet at the jail to to welcome Andy home. So
finally when I got to Cuscasca Jel, I said You're
being released. I was like wow, I started shaking color
started coming back to my face and I started feeling
like a personal again. It was just unbelievable. It was

(54:21):
there's no no words to put it out there, so wow, yeah,
I can only imagine. And this judge didn't have to
do what he did, which was to release you on
a Rocognus responds, it seems because he was so convinced
of Andy's innocence that he didn't want to see Andy
back in prison even another day waiting for a new
trial while the state and COVID dragged this thing out.
So Andy was released. The state appealed the ruling for

(54:43):
a new trial, and the appellate court affirmed the ruling, stating,
and this is a quote, Detective Conway withheld the truth
when he attempted to bolster the reliability of Rowyer's confessions
by saying Royer new details about the murder which were
not known to the public. Again, just like Chapman, Now
it was Conway's turn to be under the bus, and

(55:05):
the appellate court ruled Detective Conway that his continued employment
the el Car Police Department was galling and found that
he committed perjury back at Andy and Lana's two dozen
five trial, and after that happened, we put pressure on
the city of Elkhart and the Elkhart Chief of Police.
You know, we were calling for Conway's termination and the chief,

(55:28):
who has a ton of integrity. Finally, they have a
chief of police there who wants to change things and
is trying to change things, wrote up a ten page
notice of termination of Detective Conway about the egregious misconduct
that he committed in this case. Well we'll see if
he's actually ever criminally pursued like one of us mere
mortals would be, but at least he can't do any

(55:49):
more damage. So the new trial ruling was upheld on appeal.
Then what happened after the appellate court decision, we file
the motion suppressed. That was like the first time that
anybody he had ever filed the motion in suppressed for Andy,
saying that it is confession was false, involuntary, and unconstitution
and it should be not admitted at the trial. And

(56:10):
the state's response was to not respond and dismiss the
case right because they knew, they always knew. So Andy's
name was finally clear. On July Conway and Chapman are disgraced.
Vicky Becker still needs her come up and and it
appears that she's currently running unopposed in November. Now I'm

(56:31):
not sure if it's too late to change that, but
we hope for so much worse for her and Andy.
Is there anything that you'd like to call on our
audience to do or to support, anything that you'd like
to see happen. I just hope that they've done wrong
so that they should pay for her. Yeah, I absolutely agree,
and I hope that comes to pass. And now we

(56:52):
go to closing arguments, where first of all, I thank
you both from the bottom of my heart for being
here and sharing your incredible story. I know it must
be difficult to drudge up all of these emotions, so
thank you for being brave and doing just that. And
now I'm going to shut my microphone off, leave my
headphones on, kick back in my chair, and just listen
to any final thoughts you guys have. Elliott, please kick

(57:16):
it off for us and Andy you take us home.
You know, I think Andy's case shows the need for
why interrogation should be video recorded. You know, from beginning
to end, Andy was like among the most vulnerable in
our community and was manipulated and coerced into confessing to

(57:39):
something that wasn't true. And it's heartbreaking and it was
completely preventable the state. You know, the prosecutor was watching
the interrogation, other officers were watching the interrogation. They could
have stopped it at any point. You know, they didn't
have to charge him. They knew it wasn't reliable, and instead,
you know, it's pretty clear what happened, or they just

(58:00):
wanted to close a case, and they sadly did that
through framing an innocent really really innocent, not only like
in this case, but like and he's just like an
innocent human being. And the students and Notre Dame and
our team works so so hard to show the injustice

(58:21):
and to bring Andy home, and in Andy's name, we
hope to do that for so many other innocent people
from Elkhart. I just want to thank everybody that worked
on the case, and the law students and people that
believed in me, my mom and my stepdad and family,

(58:44):
and they brought me through a lot. I didn't know
how to get through it, but I did. Thank you.
Thank you for listening to wrongful conviction. I'd like to
thank our production team Connor Hall Jeff Clyverne and Kevin Wardis,

(59:08):
with research by Lila Robinson. The music in this production
was supplied by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph.
Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction,
on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast, and on Twitter at
wrong Conviction, as well as at Lava for Good. On
all three platforms, you can also follow me on both

(59:28):
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