September 13, 2022 • 36 mins
On January 13, 1994, two men hijacked the car of three travelers at a gas station in Chicago, IL, killing Reginald Wilson and Felicia Lewis. Carl Williams was implicated in the crime by the two hijackers and eventually produced a confession after hours of abuse and coercion from detectives. Williams was convicted of first-degree murder and sentenced to life without the possibility of parole. Patrick speaks with Carl Williams, and Attorney Karl Leonard, from the Exoneration Project at the University of Chicago Law School.
To learn about and support Carl Williams, visit:
https://www.royalmensolutions.com/
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
I'm Jason Flom, host of Wrongful Conviction. Over the years,
hundreds of exonrees have told me their stories, and sadly,
with the state of our criminal legal system, we're left
with far more cases than I can possibly handle alone.
So I've asked some axonrerees to handle some of these cases,
bringing the kind of perspective to the interviews that could
only come from living through their own wrongful convictions. This
(00:23):
is one of those interviews. In the early morning hours
of January, Stephen Fitch, Reginald Wilson, and Felicia Lewis were
in Chicago driving in Wilson's car. They stopped at a
gas station so the two men could use the restroom.
When Fitch walked back to the car, he saw two
(00:45):
men hijacking it, one driving and another in the back
with Wilson and Lewis. Fitch ran across the street and
called the police to report the car jacking. Later that day,
the frozen bodies of twenty three year old Illinois state
basketball star Reginald Wilson and his twenty year old girlfriend,
Felicia Lewis were discovered in a large garbage ban in Chicago.
(01:07):
Both had sustained multiple gunshot wounds. The stolen car was
found idling in a nearby town after a chase. Two
of the car jackers were identified as Scott Chambers and
Stanley Hamilt. They were interviewed and admitted their involvements in
the crime. They also named three more accomplices, including a
guy named Carl. Through their investigation, the police were led
(01:31):
to Carl Williams. The co defendants repeatedly said that Carl
Williams wasn't involved and there was no physical evidence linking
him to the carjacking and murders, but with a forced
and false confession, Carl Williams was found guilty of a
crime he did not commit and was since the natural
life in prison. This is wrongful conviction. My name is
(02:03):
Patrick Persley, also known as Free Patrick Pursley, as previously
a guest on Wrang for Conviction as in Asnoree, but
today I'm honored to be your guest host. It is
a true privilege. We'll be talking to two people to
Carl's actually attorney, Carl Leonard, and my good friend and
brother Carl Williams. This interview was recorded in April, but
(02:28):
Carl and I have known each other for a long time.
We were at Stapo prison together where we both spent
countless hours in the lawd liberry. We probably did what
how many years you think we did together? Oh? Man
um at least how how how many years? He was
(02:49):
just twenty three? Yeah, see just and then I was
there about twenty three years, so at least years a
couple of decades. Yes, that's you. Hail from Cook County, Chicago.
I doo born and raised um. The what they called
(03:11):
the low wind, the lowing hell of a rep. The
low wind definitely has a hell of a rep. But
I think that the low wind gets an unfair rep. Well,
but I don't even think it exists no more. And
so it was so bad they knocked the buildings down.
Then they definitely knocked the buildings down. But the spirit
and the people are still the next community. They were
serving that community, UM in a more productive and positive ways. Yeah,
(03:33):
that's beautiful thing. So going forward, right, like you you
catch this just this horrific, horrific case. It's a very
heavy story, right, it's a very so you had to
carry this, can you like start us like at the beginning,
what like what took place? So me growing up in
(03:55):
that community. It was a community like I said that,
I love that, I value that, I appreciate it, and
at the same time, I also made some wrong decisions
in that community. I come from street hustling, which allowed
me to be able to gain material wealth. And you
know how this operates in those communities. Very true, and
(04:16):
it brings it brings a long attention in terms of
girls and things. We're talking about starting from the age
of like fifteen years old. And what it does is
it brings you a ton of attention. Everybody knows your name,
everybody wants to be connected to you. A few months
(04:37):
after Carl's seventeenth birthday, a terrible crime happened in his neighborhood.
Here's attorney Kyle Leonard, who worked on Carl's case. The
evidence that the that the state collected was that there
was carjacking confrontation at a gas station in Chicago. UH.
Two individuals were kidnapped during the car jack king brought
(05:01):
to another location. UH the woman was actually assaulted and
both of them ended up murdered and in a dumpster.
And there was there were some items that were stolen
from the vehicle and the state alleged that that those
items were divvied up among the offenders. The other person
who had been in the car with the victims saw
the car jacking and called the police. The police tracked
(05:23):
down the vehicle in nearby town. They arrested two people
running from it, Scott Chambers and Stanley Hamlin, who were
both later convicted of the crime. Chambers and Hamlin then
provided the police with three more names, so Riis Johnson,
Anthony Brown, and a guy named Carl. They didn't give
his last name, just Carl. It's really rare to have
(05:44):
this manic defendants and it's a lot to sort through, right.
This is a case that involves a lot of offenders
and the police are obviously investigating. They're sort of big
break is when they find the vehicle, which they they
had brought to a south suburb out side Chicago, and
that's how they made the initial arrests of who would
(06:05):
become some of Carl's co defendants. There's an individual with
them who does not end up becoming a co defendant,
but who is the first one to sort of start
talking and they he just starts saying names of people
who were involved, gives the first name Carl. They decided
that Carl Williams is the car that this person's referring
to the name Carl came up being involved in this
(06:29):
brutal cry. So with that name being coming up, then
who was the most popular car in that area at
that time? It was me based off the fact of
the street hustling and the things that brought me the
unwanted attention. Now, the description that they was given of
this car was six one to six three, low hair,
(06:54):
my skin, um full beard. I mean I was just
a young kid who barely can still grow a beard
to this day. About five seven. I mean, well not
quite five seven, but I mean I'm about five, but
you'll match the description skin tone or height or I
was five seven at that time, stocky build, short hair,
never had long hair. The description definitely didn't fit me.
(07:14):
The police showed up at the home of Erica Wells,
Carl's girlfriend at the time. The person that answered the
door told the police that Carl was upstairs. The police
entered the home and immediately got rough with him, taking
me and throwing me onto the floor, slamming me onto
the floor, grabbing me by the knack, putting the gun
to my head, threatening to shoot me. And to kill
(07:36):
me if I move. A lot of people don't really
realize how like the tailor two America's like the treatment
in the door. They absolutely so, it is so calm.
The violations as far as what they would call civil
rights violations, it's like we basically have no civil rights
and at all. When you're at that point and just
(08:00):
feeling that understanding, it feels like it takes some of
your power away. You're powerless in that moment. And they
take me downstairs and I have on nothing but my underwear,
no other clothes on whatsoever. And I'm studied consistently actually
them what's going on to people in the house are
(08:21):
asking them what's going on? They take me out in handcuffs.
Now it's January before. Do you know how cold Chicago
could be to go outside and to step outside and
the code it's aure. But when you think about it today,
is it was a deliberate process of course, So it
(08:43):
asked trauma that you have already experienced from from the
moment that they entered into the house to accuse you
of a crime that you didn't commit. So the person, um,
they take me outside with the handcuffs on and just
I guess for him to identify me. Now they're saying
that he's identifying me, and I need to go down
to the station. And this is where the rest of
(09:07):
the trauma begins. You can feel the butterflies, you can
feel the nervousness, you can feel the anxiety because of
what just happened to you. So there's still trauma that's
continuing to follow you and walk with you through the
same path that they're taking you on, which is a
brutal path. So and then presenting you in that way,
(09:29):
having you handcuff, holding you by your arm and just
jaking open the door and and pushing you there and
say and the person you know this person at he's
like no, and they all go And when you go
to every room and they say no, it's like, oh man,
(09:50):
but you don't understand that at the time. They put
you back in that room and you're you know, and
you're like, oh man, that you know that was that?
That was it. But then hours to go by, or
you don't know how much time going by because there's
no clock, and you're like, what I am I still here?
Then you see one of your co defendants come to you.
(10:13):
They bring him back to you, and he still says no,
But then they bring him back within a thirty minute
or within the hour time frame, and now he's crying,
and you know, and and and him, and then he
says they asked him again, and he says, yeah, now
(10:35):
you you know it's it's it's a concern and a worry. Um,
that's starting to lose your grasp on reality to imagine,
I couldn't explain to you that feeling. Now, can we
just be clear, because it's not it's it's torture, the
(10:55):
breaking of the will, the breaking of the psyche. And
I'm glad that you recognized and identified it as that,
because that's exactly what it is. It's no different from
the mental um um torture that you put someone and
what I'm talking to obey through. It's no different from
torture that you put someone through in Vietnam. So you're
absolutely right because the tactics are the same, you know,
(11:18):
the objectives are the same. The objectives are definitely the same,
just different people. And the facts can just be collateral damage.
The facts are unfortuntime. At the time, the purpose is
to be able to find um a person, to to
accuse them and charge them with the crime, so so
your day can be over with. I just want to
(11:41):
remind you here, it's only seventeen years old at the
time when all this is going down. The police interrogate
him all day, like ten or twelve hours straight trying
to get him to confess. So just going through that
process hours on end, hours on end to where you
just want to end it. It's just like, hey, you
know what, well, we want you to sign this. If
(12:05):
you don't, then this process will happen again. I couldn't
tell you of the fear that I probably that I
felt at that time. Well, I mean, it's a very
sterile picture, but the reality is those interrogation rooms are
full of blood, spit urine. They are on the wall
(12:26):
saying here, they're right, they're hot there. You know, they're
literally stuffed with the energy of the people that were
in there just a few moments before you and you
can end this process if you signed this statement. As
naive as I was, I did think that was there
(12:46):
a sense of relief, would have a sense of relief
though after the fact, um, I think that some of
my anxiety kind of went away because of I didn't
see them anymore, not knowing that this has to has
affected my entire life. At nine o'clock that evening, Assistant
(13:11):
State's Attorney Nicholas grabs As wrote a handwritten confession for Carl.
The statement said that he was in Anthony Brown's car
when Carl and four other co defendants saw the victims
Chevy Blazer at the gas station and then decided to
hijack it, strip it, and sell the parts and split
the money. The statement said that Carl was on the
(13:31):
lookout while the hijacking took place, and that he was
in Brown's car watching while Brown raped Felicia Lewis. They
then allegedly returned Louis to the blazer and demanded money.
The statement said that afterwards all five co defendants met
up and Scott Chambers told them they shot the victims
and then Carl received thirty dollars as to share the
(13:54):
hijacking money. After being subject to torture and relentless pressure
from the police, Carl Williams signed this false confession, sealing
his faith. During that time, I was still um in
a state of confusion. I was still very hurt. I
was also struggling in terms of defending myself here. I was,
(14:18):
you know, early on you you're given a p D
who's not putting forth an effort to be able to
um actually highlight your innocence, but to shuffle you along
to be to the next case. I was still, you know,
you hear stuff like this when the judge is allowed,
judge and this judgement see right through the police is nonsense,
(14:40):
and then there bring your relief. Well, I actually hope
that would be for me, that that's like the loss
of innocence right there when we learned of what a
freaking fairytale that one is right until and listen, let
me go back just a little bit the first time
when I'm arraigned in front of the judge, my co
(15:03):
defendants says still that I wasn't involved in the case,
that they that they have their wrong person. This is yes,
you would think that at some point there was want
to be an investigation. This is a continuing theme fair
Belt right now. But things are continue to move forward,
(15:23):
uh at a very rapid um fast pace and no
one cares. So what actual evidence like was what what
evidence that the state presenting? What was your side? The
statement that's it? No code defenders to come testify. No
one testify against me. The co defender who decided to
testify against another. The co defendant refused to testify against
(15:47):
me because he said to them that I was innocent
and wasn't involved in the case. As a practice in
jail house lawyer for twenty three years in Stateville, I've
seen this way so much. Public defenders are often referred
to imprison as public pretenders because they often dropped the ball.
(16:08):
It happens more often than the general public has any
idea of. And in this case, the public defender failed
to get any exculpatory evidence to help free at client.
The lawyer never went to witnesses. So, um, that was
a witness in the case, and at that time, who
(16:28):
was coming to court for me? And who was there
in the audience in terms of my alibi every time
I had a court date, and they just don't talk
to him and they never talked and they never spoke
to him. I've seen it. I've trust me, I've seen it.
As a jail house lawyer. You already know that. Um,
you know, not knocking lawyers right. However, when we're sitting
(16:50):
inside and we're filing these complaints to the Attorney Registration
Disciplinary Commission. Another lawyer answers them right, and basically all
these claims are basically all the same as far as
failure to reach out to get witnesses, failed you to investigate,
FAILI to secure evidence right, maybe video surveilance or whatever,
failure to get an expert to challenge any evidence. But
(17:14):
here it is what the gap for you is a confession.
You would think that he might have stepped up and
did more. No physical evidence, no, no, nothing to connect
me to the crime whatsoever. The jury deliberated for several
days and eventually came to the conclusion that Carl Williams
(17:35):
was guilty a first degree murder. Carl was convicted because
of his you know, the so called confession of the
statement that was the only evidence. And I think the
police knew that they didn't have any evidence. That's why
they beat you. That's why they need something. The only
way they're closing this case against Carl Williams is if
(17:55):
you confess. So they made sure to get a confession, correct,
That's how they are you convicted. But yeah, I mean
from the second I met Carl, I knew he's innocent.
I still believe He's innocent, no doubt about it. The
way I kind of like, look at it's like you
know the Zamboni machine. That's the thing. It's like a
slow like it's just running you over slow motion, right,
(18:16):
And you're just getting to this process where you know
you're being run over by the system and you can't
do it. You just can't do anything about it because
a lot of times if the council does not do
the work, the judge does not suit Sponte on his own. Hey,
I call Radishes correct. The prosecutor is just here for
(18:37):
the slam dunk, right, So now you, um, you get
found guilty. What is this um like? For myself? I
just I don't even remember how I got back to
my debt. What happened? What was your processing? I cried
the entire way. I can remember walking back and asking
them to speak to a counselor because my mind couldn't function.
(19:01):
My mind couldn't tell you, Um, I couldn't even figure
out where I was at at the time. And uh,
And I'm getting emotional about it now because I'm thinking
about my young self at that time trying to walk
through that tunnel and you know you can't you can't
protect that, you know what I'm saying. And you walk
through that tunnel and you're and you're thinking to yourself,
(19:23):
they just took my life. How could you reconcile with
with that? When you when you believed in something, you
believed in something more importantly that you trusted in the process,
and then the process fails you. I sat by myself
on that deck. I can remember just being in the
room for days and people coming to check on me
(19:46):
because they was afraid that, you know, trying to harm himself.
I'm sorry, and you know, but immediately, immediately, UM, my mom.
You know my mom made she rest in peace now
you know. She She passed away um this year from
COVID on January the second. I can remember her calling
(20:09):
one of my friends who was on that deck with me,
and he's like, man, your mom's saying, call her, call her.
And I called her and she says, you know, UM,
I can't imagine what you're going through. My heart is broken,
but we need to get focused real quick. What is
it that we need to do to fight for your life.
(20:32):
I just started to go and write letters immediately. That's
where it all begins for me from I never stopped
writing letters asking for help. I've probably sent out over
four thousand letters. Good god, I actually sent so many
letters out. We used to send a hundred letters out
(20:55):
in the box for those who don't know. For those
don't know. Stateville Prison lost the lawsuit and in part
of a an agreement was they had to send all
of our legal mail out and we would take full avenge.
I would put them in colorful envelopes. I would put
them in peppermint looking envelopes, pink envelopes, green envelopes, just
(21:16):
to make them try to stand out. And you name them.
I wrote them. I said, do you know do you
know anyone who would be interested in looking into a
role for conviction. I've written many letters, I've written many people.
And Mike responded, and that changed the narrative for me.
That Mike is his lawyer, Michael Scolar, who took on
(21:40):
the case pro bono on seven. Before Mike got involved
in the case, Carl had already filed to post conviction
petitions and both were denied. Together they filed two more petitions.
He started working on the case and he said, Carl,
I believe you're innocent, but this is gonna be an
uphill battle. I just wanted to check right because this
(22:01):
is uh, this is the turnaround, right, So, um, you're
thrown down this deep dark well, right, that's basically what
it is. It's like a Stateville's like a little like
a little hell, and time is frozen. Right. You have
the same people reciting the same rap song that they
(22:22):
were citing when they kind of locked up. Right, So
you're in this like this pocket universe of hell, and
everything is going against you to prevent you from getting
to that law library, right, getting copies, right, having any
peace to read your case. Right. However, the hope comes
because you see other people getting out right, So me
(22:46):
and you we got your witnessed several people, So that
gives you hope, right, like even right now, like I
really feel like the exhilaration, Like, um, one day we're
going to hard and talking to baby Stone. Right, next day,
baby Stone is out, the next day baby Stone is
all sixty minutes. That is a hell of a message
(23:10):
to us, and it's very encouraging, and it's very supportive
in terms of your spirit, your energy, and your peace
and your effort to continue to push forth and dry
the narrative of your innocence. And when we get the
lawyers right, because we know pro say gets no play.
Once we get the lawyers right, it gives us such
(23:33):
a shot in the arm. I look at it very
much like I sent my words out to fight for
me mhm. And over time other people added their words
to fight for me, and becomes an undeniable, undeniable force,
(23:57):
and it literally sets us free. Long before I was
ever even involved, Mike had done a ton of investigation
and got an affidavits from the co defendants from a
number of people attesting to Carl's innocence. Meanwhile, there's a
(24:20):
Supreme Court case called Miller versus Alabama that was decided
which talks about how it can be unconstitutional to give
life sentences or de facto life sentences to juveniles. Carl
falls into that category, so they file another post conviction
petition raising that issue separately. The judge dismissed both of
(24:40):
them and went up on appeal, and Mike and his
team won the appeal sent it back to the Child
Court to have a hearing on these issues. That's the
point at which I got involved, was getting ready to
have that hearing. I don't like popular opinion is very
weighty on lawyers as far as you know, a lot
(25:03):
of people give you like jeers for helping prisoners. As
far as yourself and going into this process, what were
someone challenges. I think one of the hardest parts about
these cases in general is just how old they are,
and like it's it's terrible for you guys who were
in prison for what was it, twenty four years, twenty
six years, But during that time, memories fade, witnesses die,
(25:26):
witnesses move, and so we're trying to piece back together
something that happened a very long time ago, involving people
who have moved on with their lives and want nothing
to do with you. So I think that tends to
be one of the bigger challenges with all of these
cases is that we're not the place. We can't show
up with a badge and say you need to talk
to us, so you're you're just trying to convince people
(25:49):
that you're worth their time. So I think just the
passage of time and the lack of any real power
makes it really hard to sort of reinvestigate these these
types of cases. Our goal is to get Carl home,
and the way we were able to get him home.
The quickest was to reach an agreement with the state
(26:13):
about the the Miller claimed the juvenile life without parole claim.
Agreed to a sentence, and we did a sentencing hearing
instead of doing an evidentiary hearing, and convinced the judge
to impose a sentence that got Carl home pretty quickly
after that. A lot of people don't really realize how
(26:33):
long it takes for a post conviction petition to matriculate
through the circuit courts. The whole process in this case
was definitely not quick. In twelve and Impellet Court ruled
that he was entitled to a new evidentury hearing and
if he were denied a new trial after that, he
should at least deserve a nuisance based on the president
(26:56):
set by Miller versus Alabama. It always was one thing
and after another and saying, oh, um, well, we're looking,
we're waiting on these documents, or I didn't read this,
or she would give me these long continuouces. So it
went on and on and on, and it dragged out
from November of on the way to August one. Do
(27:21):
you see or do you believe that this using time
as a weapon it is and household. It's being used
as a weapon because it wears you down. Imagine the
psychological effects that that has upon you. You're going to
court or you're having a court date, and then it's
another continuous I think thinking about the how much time
(27:43):
went by there, and I think you're absolutely right that
there is a strategic reason for the state to delay
things and things like that. I think also, and this
is much more depressing, is that the delays I don't
think are necessarily because this is the way we're going
to win the case. I think a lot of the
times delays are you guys don't matter. There are more
(28:05):
important things for these judges to be working on. There's
more important things for the prosecutors to be working on.
These guys were convicted, they don't matter. Kyle was released
from prison in but not based on his innocence, but
because in the new sentence that was imposed, it's a
chance to get out, but it also means you won't
officially be exonerated, and that's a very heavy cross to
(28:27):
carry for someone who's actually innocent. For me, Um, it
was very bittersweet. It's something that I was like, you
know what, Um, I didn't want to do, but I
was forced to do. I wasn't gonna die in somebody's prison.
My mom was older. I lost a son. It's one
(28:50):
of the things that I that I kicked myself over,
and I've gone back over if there's anything I could
have done to make this go faster. Because your son
died right before you got out, I've gone back over
it and wondered, is there any place I could have
made this go a month faster or something like that.
I am beyond grateful that you were home to be
(29:13):
with your mom, but you're the fact that your son
died right before you got out, and and and I
want to just make this clear, not that he died
as if he died from natural causes, he was murdered
in broad daylight. I need to touch on this. How
many times did you see guys our age lose sons
(29:36):
to the streets while we were inside? Oh man, I
lost count I probably I don know about forty people
who's probably lost a son. The father's not there, were
locked up. The mother is doing her best, is put
cultural best effort, but the culture is drawing them out.
(29:57):
The culture is drawing them out. That is very true.
The culture is definitely drawing them out, reshaping their frame
of mind, changing their free features. Really hard for them
to give absolutely, because it's like speaking a foreign language,
it is. And you're still trying to be a father
(30:17):
and a parent from from prison, which you know you
wish there was a such thing. I mean, I literally
like hashtag Confessions of a jail Daddy. It's an oxymoron.
You're in jail. You can write all the letters and
all the money, but the culture is still going to
get a hold to our children, it is. But in
(30:38):
returning back into society, you know, I've took in every
educational course that I possibly could in that prison, only
because I've always seen a better future and the opportunity
for me upon my return. So in the name of
my son, in the name of myself, I was definitely
going to upon my return, whatever day that was going
(30:59):
to be, I was gonna do something and make something
better of myself and highlighted to to do better in
the community that I grew up in. I feel like
I have been taking that journey. I feel like I
have been walking that journey with the work that I've
been doing. I now teach um kids in the neighborhood
(31:19):
who fathers were in conserrated or who mothers were in concerrated.
I teach them corpentry. I own a furniture business as
building custom cabinets as well as selling furniture and the
Royal Man Solutions and you can find that on royal
Man Solutions dot com and um. One of the things
(31:41):
that um Um I do is that I take some
of these these kids from the community, take them on
deliveries with me and I pay them. It's it's an
opportunity for them to learn the trade and the craft.
But UM also UM learned the experience of working a
job to be able to provide for themselves UM today,
(32:03):
tomorrow into the future. I think it's really beautiful how
he's carrying on with his life with without the bitterness
and the baggage. He's very much radiant soul. He's given
back to his community. And we'll have links to Carl's
work in the Bile so you can flood him with
love there. And now we'll go to closing part of
our show. I want to thank the listeners for having
(32:23):
me as your guest host, and of course thanks to
the two Carl's Carl Williams for allowing me the honor
to tell this story, and Carl Leonard for his work
on behalf of the wrongfully Convicted. This last bit of
the show we call closing arguments. I'm gonna step away
from the mic and let Carl and Carl have the
last words. The way to avoid wrongful convictions in the
(32:46):
first place. The way to fix the wrong force convictions
that we have is for the people who are listening
to the program to vote. Vote for prosecutors who are
going to change the way these officers work. Vote for
mayors who are going to appoint police cheeks. So we're
gonna change the way police departments work. It's a slow process.
It doesn't help people like Carl, but hopefully it helps
(33:07):
prevent more people like Carl. It get the people out
who are locked up wrongfully, stop sending around people to prison.
And I think the only way that we can do
that is to vote for better leaders. I certainly agree.
I'm reaching out to UM different legislators UM making the
argument about how the narrative surrounding role for convictions needs
(33:30):
to change, how they need to be a calling for
people being held responsible for allowing role for convictions and
annoyingly committing crimes with prosecure the misconduct with police brutality
where there be charges brought against them because their crimes.
If I committed the crime, you will bring your charge
against me. They It shouldn't be no difference. The other
(33:53):
thing is is that I thank y'all for being able
to tell the stories of those who are wrongfully convicted.
This allows an audience to um hear the story, make
a decision, and hopefully be active to change the narrative
as well. It's important to inform the public so they
(34:13):
can definitely be involved and get involved. It makes them
more capable, more able, and more fit in terms of
serving to change the narrative of our wrongful convictions. Thank
you for listening at Wrongful Conviction. I'd like to thank
our executive producers Jason Flynn and Kevin Wardis. The Senior
(34:34):
producer for this episode is Jackie Polly, and our producers
are Lila Robinson, Connor Hall and Jeff clad Barn. Our
editor is Roxander Guidi and special thanks to Jillian Forstad
for help on this episode. The music and this production
is by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be
sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction, on
(34:57):
Facebook at Wrongful Conviction podcast as, and on Twitter at
wrong Conviction, as well as Lava for Good. On all
three platforms, you can also follow me on Facebook and
Instagram at free Patrick Pursley at I Am Kid Culture Too,
and online at i Am Kid Culture dot org. Wrangful
Conviction is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts and
(35:20):
association with Signal Company Number one. Next week, on the
guest hosted episodes of ronfl Conviction, Patrick Persley will interview
Eric Blackman, a fellow aux HONERI and someone he knew
well inside prison. They're going to talk about the toxic
(35:41):
criminal justice system in Chicago and how Eric ended up
in prison for a crime he didn't commit. I mean,
he couldn't have committed it. The guy had dozens, literally
dozens of alibi witnesses. Now, Patrick, by the way, is
someone I mean, this guy is such an incredible human.
(36:02):
During his almost three decades wrongly convicted in some of
the most dangerous, deadly prisons in America, he somehow figured
out how to change the law that allowed for the
evidence in his case to be tested, which ultimately proved
his innocence and led to his exoneration. So this is
(36:25):
going to be an incredible conversation. Listen next Monday in
the Wrongful Conviction podcast feed
I'm Jason Flom, host of Wrongful Conviction. Over the years,
hundreds of exonrees have told me their stories, and sadly,
with the state of our criminal legal system, we're left
with far more cases than I can possibly handle alone.
So I've asked some axonrerees to handle some of these cases,
bringing the kind of perspective to the interviews that could
only come from living through their own wrongful convictions. This
(00:23):
is one of those interviews. In the early morning hours
of January, Stephen Fitch, Reginald Wilson, and Felicia Lewis were
in Chicago driving in Wilson's car. They stopped at a
gas station so the two men could use the restroom.
When Fitch walked back to the car, he saw two
(00:45):
men hijacking it, one driving and another in the back
with Wilson and Lewis. Fitch ran across the street and
called the police to report the car jacking. Later that day,
the frozen bodies of twenty three year old Illinois state
basketball star Reginald Wilson and his twenty year old girlfriend,
Felicia Lewis were discovered in a large garbage ban in Chicago.
(01:07):
Both had sustained multiple gunshot wounds. The stolen car was
found idling in a nearby town after a chase. Two
of the car jackers were identified as Scott Chambers and
Stanley Hamilt. They were interviewed and admitted their involvements in
the crime. They also named three more accomplices, including a
guy named Carl. Through their investigation, the police were led
(01:31):
to Carl Williams. The co defendants repeatedly said that Carl
Williams wasn't involved and there was no physical evidence linking
him to the carjacking and murders, but with a forced
and false confession, Carl Williams was found guilty of a
crime he did not commit and was since the natural
life in prison. This is wrongful conviction. My name is
(02:03):
Patrick Persley, also known as Free Patrick Pursley, as previously
a guest on Wrang for Conviction as in Asnoree, but
today I'm honored to be your guest host. It is
a true privilege. We'll be talking to two people to
Carl's actually attorney, Carl Leonard, and my good friend and
brother Carl Williams. This interview was recorded in April, but
(02:28):
Carl and I have known each other for a long time.
We were at Stapo prison together where we both spent
countless hours in the lawd liberry. We probably did what
how many years you think we did together? Oh? Man
um at least how how how many years? He was
(02:49):
just twenty three? Yeah, see just and then I was
there about twenty three years, so at least years a
couple of decades. Yes, that's you. Hail from Cook County, Chicago.
I doo born and raised um. The what they called
(03:11):
the low wind, the lowing hell of a rep. The
low wind definitely has a hell of a rep. But
I think that the low wind gets an unfair rep. Well,
but I don't even think it exists no more. And
so it was so bad they knocked the buildings down.
Then they definitely knocked the buildings down. But the spirit
and the people are still the next community. They were
serving that community, UM in a more productive and positive ways. Yeah,
(03:33):
that's beautiful thing. So going forward, right, like you you
catch this just this horrific, horrific case. It's a very
heavy story, right, it's a very so you had to
carry this, can you like start us like at the beginning,
what like what took place? So me growing up in
(03:55):
that community. It was a community like I said that,
I love that, I value that, I appreciate it, and
at the same time, I also made some wrong decisions
in that community. I come from street hustling, which allowed
me to be able to gain material wealth. And you
know how this operates in those communities. Very true, and
(04:16):
it brings it brings a long attention in terms of
girls and things. We're talking about starting from the age
of like fifteen years old. And what it does is
it brings you a ton of attention. Everybody knows your name,
everybody wants to be connected to you. A few months
(04:37):
after Carl's seventeenth birthday, a terrible crime happened in his neighborhood.
Here's attorney Kyle Leonard, who worked on Carl's case. The
evidence that the that the state collected was that there
was carjacking confrontation at a gas station in Chicago. UH.
Two individuals were kidnapped during the car jack king brought
(05:01):
to another location. UH the woman was actually assaulted and
both of them ended up murdered and in a dumpster.
And there was there were some items that were stolen
from the vehicle and the state alleged that that those
items were divvied up among the offenders. The other person
who had been in the car with the victims saw
the car jacking and called the police. The police tracked
(05:23):
down the vehicle in nearby town. They arrested two people
running from it, Scott Chambers and Stanley Hamlin, who were
both later convicted of the crime. Chambers and Hamlin then
provided the police with three more names, so Riis Johnson,
Anthony Brown, and a guy named Carl. They didn't give
his last name, just Carl. It's really rare to have
(05:44):
this manic defendants and it's a lot to sort through, right.
This is a case that involves a lot of offenders
and the police are obviously investigating. They're sort of big
break is when they find the vehicle, which they they
had brought to a south suburb out side Chicago, and
that's how they made the initial arrests of who would
(06:05):
become some of Carl's co defendants. There's an individual with
them who does not end up becoming a co defendant,
but who is the first one to sort of start
talking and they he just starts saying names of people
who were involved, gives the first name Carl. They decided
that Carl Williams is the car that this person's referring
to the name Carl came up being involved in this
(06:29):
brutal cry. So with that name being coming up, then
who was the most popular car in that area at
that time? It was me based off the fact of
the street hustling and the things that brought me the
unwanted attention. Now, the description that they was given of
this car was six one to six three, low hair,
(06:54):
my skin, um full beard. I mean I was just
a young kid who barely can still grow a beard
to this day. About five seven. I mean, well not
quite five seven, but I mean I'm about five, but
you'll match the description skin tone or height or I
was five seven at that time, stocky build, short hair,
never had long hair. The description definitely didn't fit me.
(07:14):
The police showed up at the home of Erica Wells,
Carl's girlfriend at the time. The person that answered the
door told the police that Carl was upstairs. The police
entered the home and immediately got rough with him, taking
me and throwing me onto the floor, slamming me onto
the floor, grabbing me by the knack, putting the gun
to my head, threatening to shoot me. And to kill
(07:36):
me if I move. A lot of people don't really
realize how like the tailor two America's like the treatment
in the door. They absolutely so, it is so calm.
The violations as far as what they would call civil
rights violations, it's like we basically have no civil rights
and at all. When you're at that point and just
(08:00):
feeling that understanding, it feels like it takes some of
your power away. You're powerless in that moment. And they
take me downstairs and I have on nothing but my underwear,
no other clothes on whatsoever. And I'm studied consistently actually
them what's going on to people in the house are
(08:21):
asking them what's going on? They take me out in handcuffs.
Now it's January before. Do you know how cold Chicago
could be to go outside and to step outside and
the code it's aure. But when you think about it today,
is it was a deliberate process of course, So it
(08:43):
asked trauma that you have already experienced from from the
moment that they entered into the house to accuse you
of a crime that you didn't commit. So the person, um,
they take me outside with the handcuffs on and just
I guess for him to identify me. Now they're saying
that he's identifying me, and I need to go down
to the station. And this is where the rest of
(09:07):
the trauma begins. You can feel the butterflies, you can
feel the nervousness, you can feel the anxiety because of
what just happened to you. So there's still trauma that's
continuing to follow you and walk with you through the
same path that they're taking you on, which is a
brutal path. So and then presenting you in that way,
(09:29):
having you handcuff, holding you by your arm and just
jaking open the door and and pushing you there and
say and the person you know this person at he's
like no, and they all go And when you go
to every room and they say no, it's like, oh man,
(09:50):
but you don't understand that at the time. They put
you back in that room and you're you know, and
you're like, oh man, that you know that was that?
That was it. But then hours to go by, or
you don't know how much time going by because there's
no clock, and you're like, what I am I still here?
Then you see one of your co defendants come to you.
(10:13):
They bring him back to you, and he still says no,
But then they bring him back within a thirty minute
or within the hour time frame, and now he's crying,
and you know, and and and him, and then he
says they asked him again, and he says, yeah, now
(10:35):
you you know it's it's it's a concern and a worry. Um,
that's starting to lose your grasp on reality to imagine,
I couldn't explain to you that feeling. Now, can we
just be clear, because it's not it's it's torture, the
(10:55):
breaking of the will, the breaking of the psyche. And
I'm glad that you recognized and identified it as that,
because that's exactly what it is. It's no different from
the mental um um torture that you put someone and
what I'm talking to obey through. It's no different from
torture that you put someone through in Vietnam. So you're
absolutely right because the tactics are the same, you know,
(11:18):
the objectives are the same. The objectives are definitely the same,
just different people. And the facts can just be collateral damage.
The facts are unfortuntime. At the time, the purpose is
to be able to find um a person, to to
accuse them and charge them with the crime, so so
your day can be over with. I just want to
(11:41):
remind you here, it's only seventeen years old at the
time when all this is going down. The police interrogate
him all day, like ten or twelve hours straight trying
to get him to confess. So just going through that
process hours on end, hours on end to where you
just want to end it. It's just like, hey, you
know what, well, we want you to sign this. If
(12:05):
you don't, then this process will happen again. I couldn't
tell you of the fear that I probably that I
felt at that time. Well, I mean, it's a very
sterile picture, but the reality is those interrogation rooms are
full of blood, spit urine. They are on the wall
(12:26):
saying here, they're right, they're hot there. You know, they're
literally stuffed with the energy of the people that were
in there just a few moments before you and you
can end this process if you signed this statement. As
naive as I was, I did think that was there
(12:46):
a sense of relief, would have a sense of relief
though after the fact, um, I think that some of
my anxiety kind of went away because of I didn't
see them anymore, not knowing that this has to has
affected my entire life. At nine o'clock that evening, Assistant
(13:11):
State's Attorney Nicholas grabs As wrote a handwritten confession for Carl.
The statement said that he was in Anthony Brown's car
when Carl and four other co defendants saw the victims
Chevy Blazer at the gas station and then decided to
hijack it, strip it, and sell the parts and split
the money. The statement said that Carl was on the
(13:31):
lookout while the hijacking took place, and that he was
in Brown's car watching while Brown raped Felicia Lewis. They
then allegedly returned Louis to the blazer and demanded money.
The statement said that afterwards all five co defendants met
up and Scott Chambers told them they shot the victims
and then Carl received thirty dollars as to share the
(13:54):
hijacking money. After being subject to torture and relentless pressure
from the police, Carl Williams signed this false confession, sealing
his faith. During that time, I was still um in
a state of confusion. I was still very hurt. I
was also struggling in terms of defending myself here. I was,
(14:18):
you know, early on you you're given a p D
who's not putting forth an effort to be able to
um actually highlight your innocence, but to shuffle you along
to be to the next case. I was still, you know,
you hear stuff like this when the judge is allowed,
judge and this judgement see right through the police is nonsense,
(14:40):
and then there bring your relief. Well, I actually hope
that would be for me, that that's like the loss
of innocence right there when we learned of what a
freaking fairytale that one is right until and listen, let
me go back just a little bit the first time
when I'm arraigned in front of the judge, my co
(15:03):
defendants says still that I wasn't involved in the case,
that they that they have their wrong person. This is yes,
you would think that at some point there was want
to be an investigation. This is a continuing theme fair
Belt right now. But things are continue to move forward,
(15:23):
uh at a very rapid um fast pace and no
one cares. So what actual evidence like was what what
evidence that the state presenting? What was your side? The
statement that's it? No code defenders to come testify. No
one testify against me. The co defender who decided to
testify against another. The co defendant refused to testify against
(15:47):
me because he said to them that I was innocent
and wasn't involved in the case. As a practice in
jail house lawyer for twenty three years in Stateville, I've
seen this way so much. Public defenders are often referred
to imprison as public pretenders because they often dropped the ball.
(16:08):
It happens more often than the general public has any
idea of. And in this case, the public defender failed
to get any exculpatory evidence to help free at client.
The lawyer never went to witnesses. So, um, that was
a witness in the case, and at that time, who
(16:28):
was coming to court for me? And who was there
in the audience in terms of my alibi every time
I had a court date, and they just don't talk
to him and they never talked and they never spoke
to him. I've seen it. I've trust me, I've seen it.
As a jail house lawyer. You already know that. Um,
you know, not knocking lawyers right. However, when we're sitting
(16:50):
inside and we're filing these complaints to the Attorney Registration
Disciplinary Commission. Another lawyer answers them right, and basically all
these claims are basically all the same as far as
failure to reach out to get witnesses, failed you to investigate,
FAILI to secure evidence right, maybe video surveilance or whatever,
failure to get an expert to challenge any evidence. But
(17:14):
here it is what the gap for you is a confession.
You would think that he might have stepped up and
did more. No physical evidence, no, no, nothing to connect
me to the crime whatsoever. The jury deliberated for several
days and eventually came to the conclusion that Carl Williams
(17:35):
was guilty a first degree murder. Carl was convicted because
of his you know, the so called confession of the
statement that was the only evidence. And I think the
police knew that they didn't have any evidence. That's why
they beat you. That's why they need something. The only
way they're closing this case against Carl Williams is if
(17:55):
you confess. So they made sure to get a confession, correct,
That's how they are you convicted. But yeah, I mean
from the second I met Carl, I knew he's innocent.
I still believe He's innocent, no doubt about it. The
way I kind of like, look at it's like you
know the Zamboni machine. That's the thing. It's like a
slow like it's just running you over slow motion, right,
(18:16):
And you're just getting to this process where you know
you're being run over by the system and you can't
do it. You just can't do anything about it because
a lot of times if the council does not do
the work, the judge does not suit Sponte on his own. Hey,
I call Radishes correct. The prosecutor is just here for
(18:37):
the slam dunk, right, So now you, um, you get
found guilty. What is this um like? For myself? I
just I don't even remember how I got back to
my debt. What happened? What was your processing? I cried
the entire way. I can remember walking back and asking
them to speak to a counselor because my mind couldn't function.
(19:01):
My mind couldn't tell you, Um, I couldn't even figure
out where I was at at the time. And uh,
And I'm getting emotional about it now because I'm thinking
about my young self at that time trying to walk
through that tunnel and you know you can't you can't
protect that, you know what I'm saying. And you walk
through that tunnel and you're and you're thinking to yourself,
(19:23):
they just took my life. How could you reconcile with
with that? When you when you believed in something, you
believed in something more importantly that you trusted in the process,
and then the process fails you. I sat by myself
on that deck. I can remember just being in the
room for days and people coming to check on me
(19:46):
because they was afraid that, you know, trying to harm himself.
I'm sorry, and you know, but immediately, immediately, UM, my mom.
You know my mom made she rest in peace now
you know. She She passed away um this year from
COVID on January the second. I can remember her calling
(20:09):
one of my friends who was on that deck with me,
and he's like, man, your mom's saying, call her, call her.
And I called her and she says, you know, UM,
I can't imagine what you're going through. My heart is broken,
but we need to get focused real quick. What is
it that we need to do to fight for your life.
(20:32):
I just started to go and write letters immediately. That's
where it all begins for me from I never stopped
writing letters asking for help. I've probably sent out over
four thousand letters. Good god, I actually sent so many
letters out. We used to send a hundred letters out
(20:55):
in the box for those who don't know. For those
don't know. Stateville Prison lost the lawsuit and in part
of a an agreement was they had to send all
of our legal mail out and we would take full avenge.
I would put them in colorful envelopes. I would put
them in peppermint looking envelopes, pink envelopes, green envelopes, just
(21:16):
to make them try to stand out. And you name them.
I wrote them. I said, do you know do you
know anyone who would be interested in looking into a
role for conviction. I've written many letters, I've written many people.
And Mike responded, and that changed the narrative for me.
That Mike is his lawyer, Michael Scolar, who took on
(21:40):
the case pro bono on seven. Before Mike got involved
in the case, Carl had already filed to post conviction
petitions and both were denied. Together they filed two more petitions.
He started working on the case and he said, Carl,
I believe you're innocent, but this is gonna be an
uphill battle. I just wanted to check right because this
(22:01):
is uh, this is the turnaround, right, So, um, you're
thrown down this deep dark well, right, that's basically what
it is. It's like a Stateville's like a little like
a little hell, and time is frozen. Right. You have
the same people reciting the same rap song that they
(22:22):
were citing when they kind of locked up. Right, So
you're in this like this pocket universe of hell, and
everything is going against you to prevent you from getting
to that law library, right, getting copies, right, having any
peace to read your case. Right. However, the hope comes
because you see other people getting out right, So me
(22:46):
and you we got your witnessed several people, So that
gives you hope, right, like even right now, like I
really feel like the exhilaration, Like, um, one day we're
going to hard and talking to baby Stone. Right, next day,
baby Stone is out, the next day baby Stone is
all sixty minutes. That is a hell of a message
(23:10):
to us, and it's very encouraging, and it's very supportive
in terms of your spirit, your energy, and your peace
and your effort to continue to push forth and dry
the narrative of your innocence. And when we get the
lawyers right, because we know pro say gets no play.
Once we get the lawyers right, it gives us such
(23:33):
a shot in the arm. I look at it very
much like I sent my words out to fight for
me mhm. And over time other people added their words
to fight for me, and becomes an undeniable, undeniable force,
(23:57):
and it literally sets us free. Long before I was
ever even involved, Mike had done a ton of investigation
and got an affidavits from the co defendants from a
number of people attesting to Carl's innocence. Meanwhile, there's a
(24:20):
Supreme Court case called Miller versus Alabama that was decided
which talks about how it can be unconstitutional to give
life sentences or de facto life sentences to juveniles. Carl
falls into that category, so they file another post conviction
petition raising that issue separately. The judge dismissed both of
(24:40):
them and went up on appeal, and Mike and his
team won the appeal sent it back to the Child
Court to have a hearing on these issues. That's the
point at which I got involved, was getting ready to
have that hearing. I don't like popular opinion is very
weighty on lawyers as far as you know, a lot
(25:03):
of people give you like jeers for helping prisoners. As
far as yourself and going into this process, what were
someone challenges. I think one of the hardest parts about
these cases in general is just how old they are,
and like it's it's terrible for you guys who were
in prison for what was it, twenty four years, twenty
six years, But during that time, memories fade, witnesses die,
(25:26):
witnesses move, and so we're trying to piece back together
something that happened a very long time ago, involving people
who have moved on with their lives and want nothing
to do with you. So I think that tends to
be one of the bigger challenges with all of these
cases is that we're not the place. We can't show
up with a badge and say you need to talk
to us, so you're you're just trying to convince people
(25:49):
that you're worth their time. So I think just the
passage of time and the lack of any real power
makes it really hard to sort of reinvestigate these these
types of cases. Our goal is to get Carl home,
and the way we were able to get him home.
The quickest was to reach an agreement with the state
(26:13):
about the the Miller claimed the juvenile life without parole claim.
Agreed to a sentence, and we did a sentencing hearing
instead of doing an evidentiary hearing, and convinced the judge
to impose a sentence that got Carl home pretty quickly
after that. A lot of people don't really realize how
(26:33):
long it takes for a post conviction petition to matriculate
through the circuit courts. The whole process in this case
was definitely not quick. In twelve and Impellet Court ruled
that he was entitled to a new evidentury hearing and
if he were denied a new trial after that, he
should at least deserve a nuisance based on the president
(26:56):
set by Miller versus Alabama. It always was one thing
and after another and saying, oh, um, well, we're looking,
we're waiting on these documents, or I didn't read this,
or she would give me these long continuouces. So it
went on and on and on, and it dragged out
from November of on the way to August one. Do
(27:21):
you see or do you believe that this using time
as a weapon it is and household. It's being used
as a weapon because it wears you down. Imagine the
psychological effects that that has upon you. You're going to
court or you're having a court date, and then it's
another continuous I think thinking about the how much time
(27:43):
went by there, and I think you're absolutely right that
there is a strategic reason for the state to delay
things and things like that. I think also, and this
is much more depressing, is that the delays I don't
think are necessarily because this is the way we're going
to win the case. I think a lot of the
times delays are you guys don't matter. There are more
(28:05):
important things for these judges to be working on. There's
more important things for the prosecutors to be working on.
These guys were convicted, they don't matter. Kyle was released
from prison in but not based on his innocence, but
because in the new sentence that was imposed, it's a
chance to get out, but it also means you won't
officially be exonerated, and that's a very heavy cross to
(28:27):
carry for someone who's actually innocent. For me, Um, it
was very bittersweet. It's something that I was like, you
know what, Um, I didn't want to do, but I
was forced to do. I wasn't gonna die in somebody's prison.
My mom was older. I lost a son. It's one
(28:50):
of the things that I that I kicked myself over,
and I've gone back over if there's anything I could
have done to make this go faster. Because your son
died right before you got out, I've gone back over
it and wondered, is there any place I could have
made this go a month faster or something like that.
I am beyond grateful that you were home to be
(29:13):
with your mom, but you're the fact that your son
died right before you got out, and and and I
want to just make this clear, not that he died
as if he died from natural causes, he was murdered
in broad daylight. I need to touch on this. How
many times did you see guys our age lose sons
(29:36):
to the streets while we were inside? Oh man, I
lost count I probably I don know about forty people
who's probably lost a son. The father's not there, were
locked up. The mother is doing her best, is put
cultural best effort, but the culture is drawing them out.
(29:57):
The culture is drawing them out. That is very true.
The culture is definitely drawing them out, reshaping their frame
of mind, changing their free features. Really hard for them
to give absolutely, because it's like speaking a foreign language,
it is. And you're still trying to be a father
(30:17):
and a parent from from prison, which you know you
wish there was a such thing. I mean, I literally
like hashtag Confessions of a jail Daddy. It's an oxymoron.
You're in jail. You can write all the letters and
all the money, but the culture is still going to
get a hold to our children, it is. But in
(30:38):
returning back into society, you know, I've took in every
educational course that I possibly could in that prison, only
because I've always seen a better future and the opportunity
for me upon my return. So in the name of
my son, in the name of myself, I was definitely
going to upon my return, whatever day that was going
(30:59):
to be, I was gonna do something and make something
better of myself and highlighted to to do better in
the community that I grew up in. I feel like
I have been taking that journey. I feel like I
have been walking that journey with the work that I've
been doing. I now teach um kids in the neighborhood
(31:19):
who fathers were in conserrated or who mothers were in concerrated.
I teach them corpentry. I own a furniture business as
building custom cabinets as well as selling furniture and the
Royal Man Solutions and you can find that on royal
Man Solutions dot com and um. One of the things
(31:41):
that um Um I do is that I take some
of these these kids from the community, take them on
deliveries with me and I pay them. It's it's an
opportunity for them to learn the trade and the craft.
But UM also UM learned the experience of working a
job to be able to provide for themselves UM today,
(32:03):
tomorrow into the future. I think it's really beautiful how
he's carrying on with his life with without the bitterness
and the baggage. He's very much radiant soul. He's given
back to his community. And we'll have links to Carl's
work in the Bile so you can flood him with
love there. And now we'll go to closing part of
our show. I want to thank the listeners for having
(32:23):
me as your guest host, and of course thanks to
the two Carl's Carl Williams for allowing me the honor
to tell this story, and Carl Leonard for his work
on behalf of the wrongfully Convicted. This last bit of
the show we call closing arguments. I'm gonna step away
from the mic and let Carl and Carl have the
last words. The way to avoid wrongful convictions in the
(32:46):
first place. The way to fix the wrong force convictions
that we have is for the people who are listening
to the program to vote. Vote for prosecutors who are
going to change the way these officers work. Vote for
mayors who are going to appoint police cheeks. So we're
gonna change the way police departments work. It's a slow process.
It doesn't help people like Carl, but hopefully it helps
(33:07):
prevent more people like Carl. It get the people out
who are locked up wrongfully, stop sending around people to prison.
And I think the only way that we can do
that is to vote for better leaders. I certainly agree.
I'm reaching out to UM different legislators UM making the
argument about how the narrative surrounding role for convictions needs
(33:30):
to change, how they need to be a calling for
people being held responsible for allowing role for convictions and
annoyingly committing crimes with prosecure the misconduct with police brutality
where there be charges brought against them because their crimes.
If I committed the crime, you will bring your charge
against me. They It shouldn't be no difference. The other
(33:53):
thing is is that I thank y'all for being able
to tell the stories of those who are wrongfully convicted.
This allows an audience to um hear the story, make
a decision, and hopefully be active to change the narrative
as well. It's important to inform the public so they
(34:13):
can definitely be involved and get involved. It makes them
more capable, more able, and more fit in terms of
serving to change the narrative of our wrongful convictions. Thank
you for listening at Wrongful Conviction. I'd like to thank
our executive producers Jason Flynn and Kevin Wardis. The Senior
(34:34):
producer for this episode is Jackie Polly, and our producers
are Lila Robinson, Connor Hall and Jeff clad Barn. Our
editor is Roxander Guidi and special thanks to Jillian Forstad
for help on this episode. The music and this production
is by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be
sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction, on
(34:57):
Facebook at Wrongful Conviction podcast as, and on Twitter at
wrong Conviction, as well as Lava for Good. On all
three platforms, you can also follow me on Facebook and
Instagram at free Patrick Pursley at I Am Kid Culture Too,
and online at i Am Kid Culture dot org. Wrangful
Conviction is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts and
(35:20):
association with Signal Company Number one. Next week, on the
guest hosted episodes of ronfl Conviction, Patrick Persley will interview
Eric Blackman, a fellow aux HONERI and someone he knew
well inside prison. They're going to talk about the toxic
(35:41):
criminal justice system in Chicago and how Eric ended up
in prison for a crime he didn't commit. I mean,
he couldn't have committed it. The guy had dozens, literally
dozens of alibi witnesses. Now, Patrick, by the way, is
someone I mean, this guy is such an incredible human.
(36:02):
During his almost three decades wrongly convicted in some of
the most dangerous, deadly prisons in America, he somehow figured
out how to change the law that allowed for the
evidence in his case to be tested, which ultimately proved
his innocence and led to his exoneration. So this is
(36:25):
going to be an incredible conversation. Listen next Monday in
the Wrongful Conviction podcast feed
Hosts And Creators
Lauren Bright Pacheco
Maggie Freleng
Jason Flom
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