March 13, 2023 • 37 mins
On May 7, 1993, Margaret Grondin brought her four-year-old daughter to the hospital in Lorain, OH. Grondin claimed her daughter had told her that her school bus driver, Nancy Smith, a 37 year old mother of 4, had not taken her to school that day, but instead took her to the house of a man named Joseph, who tied her up, taped her eyes shut, and sexually molested her. The doctors examined her and did not see any signs of injury to her body. And despite substantial evidence that the allegations were false, Nancy served 15 years in prison. Maggie talks to Nancy Smith, Courtney Smith, Nancy’s daughter and Mark Godsey, Nancy’s attorney.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
A warning for listeners. This episode contains graphic language and
descriptions of child molestation. Please listen with caution and care.
In nineteen ninety seven, Nancy Smith, a single mom, was
working multiple jobs to provide for her four children. One
(00:24):
of those jobs was driving preschool aged children to and
from the head Start program five days a week, and
Nancy took the responsibility seriously. I was there on time,
I was there to pick them up on time, and
I was there to take them home on time. You know,
I had four kids. I didn't have time to play around.
And then one day she was called into her boss's office.
(00:47):
One of the children's mothers had made a shocking allegation
against Nancy. They said that you didn't take her daughter
to school, you took her daughter to a birthday party
where you molested her. And I'm like, what what are
you talking about. Then other parents started coming forward saying
the same thing, that Nancy had molested their children. Soon
(01:10):
the allegations were all over the papers and TV. Things
escalated until finally Nancy was arrested for multiple accounts of reape.
They took me down to the police station. They put
me in a holding sale and I can remember one
of the detectives come up to the holding sale and
(01:30):
he just gave me this really nasty look and he said,
you'll get what you deserve. I'm Nancy Smith. I was
wrongfully convicted for fifteen years from Love of for Good.
This is wrongful conviction with Maggie Freeling today, Nancy Smith.
(02:05):
Nancy Smith was born May twenty sixth, nineteen fifty seven,
to Tom and Shirley Miller. She's one of seven siblings.
The family lived in Lorraine, Ohio, a suburb of Cleveland.
When Nancy was growing up, Lorraine was known as the
International City, celebrating the thriving and diverse immigrant population who
(02:26):
came looking for work in booming industries like steel production.
It was, of course, much better when I was growing
up than it is now. A lot of things have changed,
but it's, you know, still Loraine today. Like many other
Rust Belt cities, Lorraine has suffered from population decline and
urban decay. But back in the fifties and sixties, Lorraine
(02:50):
was the ideal all American city. We've left a normal childhood. Oh,
we used to play kickball. Jacks was a big thing,
jackson balls, just normal things that kids did. Always had
games and stuff that we played at home. You know,
we didn't have a whole lot, but we had the
love that we needed from my mom and dad. But
(03:14):
for her parents, raising seven kids was tough. My dad
was like the sole provider. My mom worked when she could.
But you know what did your dad do for work? Well,
he worked at a cemetery for forty one years. He
was a foreman at two different cemeteries. Did you go
to high school? Oh yeah, I went my whole senior
(03:35):
year and so embarrassing, and I flunked POD and the
six weeks POD. What is that? Problems of democracy? I mean,
which you know, I didn't really think I needed it
at that time. You know, although she didn't graduate high school,
(03:58):
Nancy was a hard worker. She held multiple jobs throughout
her teenage years, including at a flowershop, a marina, and
the local Why how would you describe yourself? Wow, I
don't know. I thought I was a good kind person.
You know. When she was nineteen, Nancy entered a new
(04:24):
phase of life. She got married and started a family.
I have four kids, and you know they're they're the
greatest part of my life. So tell me about growing up, Like,
what was your mom, like I mean, my mom was
my mom. You know. This is Courtney Smith, Nancy's second
(04:45):
youngest child. She's now forty two. No, I specifically remember
being you know, like happy. I mean to me, I
would say it was a normal, happy childhood. We lived
in a very clean household. You know, we never went without.
We were always fed, and we always had, you know,
what we needed, not necessarily what we wanted, but you know,
(05:08):
kids are kids, and Nancy was good at making do
with what they had. Okay, here's a memory that she's
probably not gonna laugh at, but I will um. The
one year for Christmas they gave us plastic like nice,
and then we had to cut the Christmas presents open
with knives like plastic, like, we were not allowed to
(05:30):
rip it? Right, Why couldn't you rip it? Because they
were being frugal, I don't know. And then you know,
my listen, Oh, because they wanted to save the paper. Yeah,
they were gonna they wanted to save the paper. Okay.
But although Nancy loved her children, her marriage was crumbling.
It wasn't a really happy marriage. She and her husband
(05:54):
eventually divorced. By nineteen ninety three, Nancy was in her
late thirties and all four of her children were teenagers.
She worked multiple jobs to make ends meet. You know,
it was pretty tough to make sure that, you know,
I could get my kids to school and be home
in enough time for them to you know, make them dinner,
get them ready for bed, and whatever. So it was,
(06:14):
you know, it wasn't easy for the most part of
being a single mom. You know, I did the best
I could. One of her jobs was driving a bus
for Headstart, a federal program for low income children under
five to prepare them for school. She also drove her
meals on wheels and the YMCA, So in between my
bus routes, I would deliver mills to the senior citizens
(06:36):
and then I also did a route for the YMCA
there after school program there and then I would finish
my day up with picking up the afternoon kids and
dropping them off at home. At the same time, Nancy
was also taking night classes to complete her geed. It
all made for a busy day. I made sure that,
(06:57):
you know, I was there on time. I was there
to pick them up on time, and I was there
to take them home on time. You know, I had
four kids. I had to do my job so i'd
get home to my family. I didn't have time to
play around. So I want to ask about May seventh,
(07:19):
nineteen ninety three. What do you remember about that day?
It started out as any other normal day. I went
to work and I got my bus, warmed up on whatever.
That's when her boss came over to talk to her.
When you're done with your bus route. He said, bring
your take your bus, put it back at the station,
and then come down to downtown. We'd like to talk
to you. And I was like, oh, okay, no idea, no,
(07:42):
I said, what's it about? And he goes, yeah, we'll
just talk to you when you get there. When she
walked in the office later that day, to her surprise,
the director of the head Start program was also there.
That's when she told me that a mother had made
an allegation against me. And I was like, what do
you mean an allegation against me? And she said, well,
(08:02):
they said that you didn't take her daughter to school,
you took her daughter to a birthday party where you
molested her. And I'm like, what are you what are
you talking about the whole thing? It seemed preposterous to Nancy.
I said, you guys, have my records, I said, you
have my Minley chet you have there's records shown that
this kid went to school. What are you talking about?
(08:24):
And they were like, well, you know, we just we
have to address it because this is what some others
accused in you of. But with all the documentation they had,
Nancy was certain they'd see the story wasn't true. I
followed the rules on my job, you know what I mean.
I had a bus aide with me at all times.
How would anybody accuse me of something like that? I
(08:45):
had two other jobs. When did people think I had
time to do this, you know? And then and to
accuse me being a mother of that. I can't even
tell you what that felt like. You can't even imagine
being a mother of four kids and having someone say
(09:06):
something like that about you. It's horrible. Nancy was suspended
from her head Start bus driving job while the allegations
were being investigated, but she still had a family to feed,
so she continued to drive her other roots and the
(09:28):
next thing I know, it just escalated to this nightmare
that ended me in prison for fifteen years. After a
mother accused Nancy of molesting her daughter, An official investigation
was opened. It was headed up by Detective Tom Cantu,
a respected twenty year veteran of the force. Cantu spoke
(09:51):
with the woman who made the allegations, Margie Grondin. He
also spoke to her daughter, to protect her privacy, will
call her Grace. While speaking with them, officers observed that
most of the information about the molestation came from the mother, Margie,
not from Grace. Grace actually said the abuse never happened,
until they noted Margie coaxed her to say otherwise. Police
(10:17):
said the little girl's responses became incoherent or illogical. The
doctor who examined Grace also stated that she didn't see
any signs of injury to her body. Based on these
initial interviews, the police determined that it was unlikely that
Margie Grondin's story was true, but it was a serious
allegation and the police were under pressure to do a
(10:39):
thorough investigation. Detectives then went on to interview the eleven
other children who rode Nancy's bus. None of them said
they were abused. In fact, they all said they liked
Nancy and that she was a nice bus driver. But
Margie Grondin kept it up. She went to the homes
of two of the children, whom we'll call Luke and Sarah,
(10:59):
and she told their parents that their children had been molested.
When Luke and Sarah were interviewed by the police, it
was clear they were simply repeating what their parents and
Margie Grondin told them to say. Detective Canto, for the
second time, determined there was not enough evidence to substantiate
the allegations, and he announced that he wanted to close
(11:21):
the case. I just thought it's never going to go
nowhere because I didn't do anything, you know, which at
first it didn't, and then next thing you know, Margaret
Grondin is all over the media talking about this. Enraged
that the police were not moving forward on charging Nancy.
(11:44):
Margie Gronden went to the media saying a molester was
stalking Headstart children and that the police were doing nothing
about it. I was just like, oh my god, what
is this woman doing, What is she doing? Why is
she doing this to me? I never had any problems
with her, and her child was always back at her house,
(12:05):
always at time. I mean, this woman used to give
me my buss aid gifts at Christmas time, at Easter time,
and then to turn around and make an allegation like
this against me was I was just floored, and Nancy
was especially confused when she found out what she was
actually being accused of. Margie grind and claimed her daughter
(12:26):
didn't go to school that day. Instead, she said Nancy
took Grace to the house of a man named Joseph,
who was allegedly Nancy's boyfriend, and that he tied Grace up,
put tape over her eyes, and sexually molested her with
a stick. At this point, had the name Joseph been
brought up to you, I never knew about Joseph Allen
(12:48):
until his pitcher hit the newspaper. This episode is underwritten
by AIG, a leading global insurance company. AIG is committed
(13:13):
to corporate social responsibility and to making a positive difference
in the lives of its employees and in the communities
where they work and live. In light of the compelling
need for pro bono legal assistance, and in recognition of
AIG's commitment to criminal and social justice reform, the AIG
Pro Bono Program provides free legal services and other support
(13:34):
to underrepresented communities and individuals. Thanks to Margie Grandin's public accusations,
Nancy found herself in the center of a media frenzy.
It was on every news channel, it was in the newspapers.
(13:56):
I had media coming to my house, knocking on my door.
Over the next few months, fifteen other children came forward
with stories of abuse by Nancy and Joseph. Ten were
proven to be baseless right off the bat, because those
children didn't ride Nancy's bus route. One of them didn't
even attend headstart. After these added allegations, Nancy volunteered to
(14:22):
take a polygraph, which at the time was still believed
to be a reliable method of detecting lies. According to
the test administrator, she passed so for the third time.
Detective Can'tu wrote a report stating that he believed the
allegations were unfounded and that he wouldn't bring any charges
against Nancy. Detective Can'tu was then taken off the case.
(14:48):
Other detectives resumed the investigation, and for months the only
information they had about the second suspect was that his
name was Joseph. The police ultimately believed five children, Grace, Luke, Sarah,
and two of the fifteen who came forward after the
media frenzy. They all had varying descriptions of Joseph, sometimes
(15:10):
saying he was white, sometimes black, and sometimes black with
white spots. One of the children identified a white man
whose name was not Joseph, as the perpetrator, but his
house did not match the description of the house the
children had given, so he was ruled out. Another white man,
the owner of a gay bar, was identified and also
(15:32):
ruled out. The police became frustrated with the children's muddled
and unreliable information, and while trying to get answers, they
asked leading repetitive questions designed to fit the narrative given
by the parents. So when you do start seeing these
media reports that its it starts becoming an actual situation.
(15:55):
I think when it first hit me was the day
that they rest at me in front of my kids.
The arrest happened six months after the alleged crimes took place,
on November tenth, nineteen ninety three. They came to my parents'
(16:16):
home and it was like five cop cars and they
handcuffed me in front of my children. That's something they
should never have had to worry about, and that's something
that I never should have had to worry about. Eventually,
police also settled on their second suspect, a thirty nine
year old black man named Joseph Allen, who was being
(16:37):
investigated for an unrelated crime. Nancy remembers seeing his picture
in the news before they were both arrested, and that
was the first time that I actually ever seen Joseph Allen.
I remember calling Jack Bradley, my attorney at the time,
and I was like, oh my god, Jack, who is
this guy. I don't even know who the guy is.
And he said, well, they're trying to say that this
(16:59):
was your boyfriend. I said, I don't know who this
man is. I've never even met this man before. Nancy
was charged with multiple accounts of rape. I'm trying to
remember if they even said anything to me. I mean,
at this point, I think I just kind of like
just blanked out because they you know, they handcuffed me.
They took me down to the police station. They put
(17:22):
me in a holding cell, and I can remember one
of the detectives come up to the holding cell and
he just gave me this really nasty look and he said,
you'll get what you deserve and he walked away, and
you know, I'm sitting there, I'm I'm just I'm crying
and I don't know what to do. You know, they
(17:42):
just let me lay there for hours and hours and
hours on this just this still bed, nothing, just a
play still bed. They just let me lay there for
hours and hours and hours. The trial started in July
(18:06):
of nineteen ninety four. The prosecutor was Jonathan Rosenbaum. He
called Margie Grondin along with a few other parents to
testify as to what they heard and saw from the children.
He also called a bus aid who said she had
previously seen Joseph Allen with Nancy during her bus route.
He also presented four of the five children who said
(18:26):
they were molested. One of them said on the stand
the abuse never happened, but the other three went into
detail when talking about the sexual allegations. It's the sort
of things that like a kid who doesn't actually know
about sexual interactions might say when someone says, what happened
to you down there? This is Mark Godsey, a professor
(18:48):
of law at the University of Cincinnati College of Law
and director of the Ohio Innocence Project. He says the
kids stories were not only inconsistent with each other and
with the previous statements, but that they were also obviously
made up, so they would say things like, you know,
they stuck sticks up our butt, they make us drink pe.
This is like the sort of ridiculous things at three
(19:10):
and four year olds when they're doing bathroom talk talk about.
I mean, it was just ridiculous, you know, to sit
there and watch these little kids talk about something that
they didn't even know what they were talking about, including
things like I was tied up to a tree out
on a busy street and I was naked, and I
was tied up all day long, Like like any kid
(19:31):
that's like four years old is going to be naked
and tied to a tree right by a busy road
all day and somebody's not going to call the police,
and no one's going to have any memory of this,
you know, just very bizarre type things. I mean, I'm
sitting there listening to this, like, are you kidding me?
I mean, are you really kidding me? Where's this ship
coming from? Can I cuss? Because I have a bat?
(19:55):
I'm sorry. I get when I start getting talking about it,
I get, really I can say some pretty horrible words.
Mark understands why Nancy is frustrated. The thing that's difficult
about this case is that it's hard to imagine how
bad the defense attorney did. The defense attorney was Jack Bradley.
Mark says that Bradley did a horrible job at presenting
(20:18):
evidence to disprove the allegations. There are things that you
just can't get past that proved this did not happen,
and they were all either not introduced or ignored. It
was like a perfect storm. For example, on the day
in question, and every day there was a babysitter in
the back of the bus who was willing to testify
(20:40):
I was back there. There was never a day where
I got taken to some boyfriend of Nancy's house and
these kids were molested. Of course, not right, and this
person was not called as a witness, Like, how can
you make this up? There were attendance records showing that
the kids were there on the day in question, and
in fact, the kids who were part of this allegation
(21:02):
and testified at trial were never all absent on the
same day. Was that brought up at trial when Bradley
called Nancy to testify, she said she had never seen
Joseph Allen in her life. He also called a transportation
manager from a local County agency who testified that they
checked Nancy's bus mileage and did not detect any side trips,
(21:23):
but no documents were entered into evidence or shown to
the jury. It doesn't matter if you think the allegations
like it doesn't matter if they're ludicrous. If you've got
evidence showing it didn't happen, you still got to introduce it.
The defense attorney didn't introduce any of it, and to evidence,
I think he thought there's no way there's going to
be a conviction. I mean, that was like a fog,
(21:47):
sitting in this trial by a man that I didn't
even know, being falsely accused of molesting children, having my
family sitting in a court room and listened to this
appalling ship that was coming out of their mouth, the lies,
and the people getting on stand and lieing, and just
did you think that you would be convicted? No, No,
(22:11):
there's no way. I thought there's no way. But on
August fourth, nineteen ninety four, Nancy was convicted of all charges.
She was sentenced to thirty to ninety years in prison.
And I can remember Jonathan Rosa Bob making a smirk
ass face that he always did, and I lunched toward
(22:33):
the table. I remember that Jack. I remember Jack pulled
me back and thend them taking me down to the
holding cell. I mean, I felt like I was like,
it was just so unreal. I'm sorry, I don't need
to cry. It's so hard to try to relive this.
(22:55):
Nancy's daughter, Courtney, who was fourteen at the time, also
remembers that moment her mom was convicted. She and her
siblings weren't allowed in the courtroom, so she was in
the hallway of the courthouse watching the trial on TV.
I remember watching it going dumbfounded, right, like what is
(23:17):
going on? And uh? I remember like all the newspapers,
you know, the reporters and the TV stations and they're
all flashing and I remember screaming at Margie and going
are you happy now? The B word? And the next day,
I know, I'm being like pulled away and she's like,
your mother did this, you know, and I'm like, no,
(23:39):
she did it, but you know, they pulled me out,
and then I just remember sitting there going, what's gonna
happen to us? You know? After the convictions, Margie Grondin,
(24:03):
along with several other parents, sued the Lorraine County Head
Start program for damages. They won their cases and settled
for one point five million dollars each. So in the
eighties and nineties we went through this era where there
were a couple famous cases where individuals claimed that their
(24:26):
very young children had been sexually abused in daycarese that
had some sort of deep pockets behind them, like Headstart,
federally funded places. You could get some sort of big
settlement and it was like part of the Satanic panic
where the parents who would be able to draw up
these charges were making millions. The phrase satanic panic came
about because, in addition to molestations, children sometimes also described
(24:49):
satanic rituals, which is flying through the air and other
bizarre events. One of the most notorious examples is the
McMartin case. In the early nineteen eighties, members of the
McMartin family, who operated a preschool in Manhattan Beach, California,
were charged with hundreds of acts of sexual abuse involving
children under their care. The story set off a national
(25:12):
media frenzy. It was like this hysteria that was like
whipped up that, Oh my god, all these little kids
are being molested by these daycare centers. This is like
a you know, a pandemic. This is a huge problem
that's going on and sweeping the country. The McMartin case
was ultimately dismissed seven years later, but not before dozens
(25:32):
of similar, unfounded lawsuits had erupted back in the nineties
and even the eighties. Were you aware of any other
cases like yours, like specifically this McMartin case is a
really famous one. No, No, I never, you know, I mean,
I was too busy being a mom and doing what
I was doing to you know, really wasn't into the
news and stuff like that. After her sentencing, Nancy was
(25:57):
sent to Marysville Reformatory. It's prison in Ohio. I think
the first two years I cried myself to sleep every night.
So Courtney, did you stay close with your mom? Oh? Yeah,
We talked whenever she could afford to, And it got
easier when I had a job so we could send
her buddy. Somebody would always take us down, you know,
(26:21):
like it was like a monthly thing. And then when
we got old enough when we could go ourselves. I
mean there was times that I took friends with me
so they could meet her. What is seeing your mom
in prison? Like? No, it's not a fun, enjoyable experience.
So it really was never a pleasant experience, but at
least we were able to go see her. Eventually. Nancy
(26:44):
felt some joy when she joined the prison's horticulture program,
like that was my saving grace. I mean, honestly, I
did this program for nine years and then the man
who ran the program asked me if I would stay
on at his aid, and so I would be the
one that they would go in the greenhouse and just
(27:04):
water all the flowers. I can remember just putting my
headphones on and just go in there and just thinking
I was just in a whole different place. After Mark
and the Ohio Innocence Project took on her case, things
(27:27):
started to turn around for Nancy. In two thousand and nine,
a new state law in Ohio required Nancy to be resentenced.
Mark and his team petitioned the court arguing there was
not enough evidence for a conviction, and Judge James Burge agreed.
So Nancy's conviction was vacated and she went home and
I thought, oh my god, this is fine. This nightmare
(27:48):
is finally over. It's finally over. But thirty days later,
the state appealed the ruling. And Nancy's conviction was restored.
She didn't return to prison them her hearing was delayed
for two years, and during that time, Nancy tried to
resume a semblance of normalcy. So what was picking up
(28:09):
the pieces of your life? Like? The first five years,
I was home, like I wouldn't go anywhere without anybody.
Somebody had to be with me at all times, because
I don't know how I would react as half somebody
come up and say something really negative to me. I
was already angry for all these years that I spent
in prison and fighting this case for so many years,
and so the first five years was really tough for
(28:31):
me to know the postmatic stress disorder, the anxiety, not
knowing if I'm going back to prisoners, stay at home
or whatever. In the meantime, Mark and his team were
focused on filing a post conviction motion for clemency based
on a bombshell video they discovered that had been withheld
by the prosecution. The video showed the police lineup where
(28:53):
the children from Headstart were being asked to identify their molester,
and what was actually going on in that room was shocking.
The parents were coaching during the I wouldn't identification and
like taking the kid's hands and pointing them at Joseph Allen.
The Ohio Innocence Project also compiled records showing the abuse
could not have occurred because all the children were in
(29:16):
school the day it supposedly happened, and they submitted affidavits
from Nancy's bus aides stating that they saw Nancy drop
the kids at school. On top of that, Mark and
his team also submitted to the court records showing she
was working two other jobs the afternoon in question. In
April of twenty twelve, Mark, along with the law firm Davis,
(29:38):
Polk and Wardwell, filed a petition for clemency with the
Ohio Parole Board and Governor John Kasik. In addition to
Nancy's innocence, the petition also argued that child psychologists have
since discredited the techniques used for questioning the children at
the time this was going on. What the common belief
was that if a kid is saying this, it must
(29:59):
be true, because why would a kid make this up?
And you know, from the mouths of babes, you know,
like that's the phrase that kids are always telling the
truth because they don't they don't know to lie yet
when in reality, when they're being coached or when an
adult is trying to get them to say something, they're
very adaptable and they're very easy to manipulate and get
to say what the adult wants them to say. You know,
(30:20):
children will come to believe what they're being told over
and over again and what they're being coached to believe.
And that's well established in the psychological literature. And now
decades later, when the smoke is cleared, we realized that
this was most of these people are actually innocent. A
lot of these cases were drummed up for people who
were seeking to sue and get monetary damages, and that's
exactly what Nancy Smith got unfortunately wrapped up in. In
(30:45):
twenty thirteen, Nancy was finally resentenced to twelve years and
having already served fourteen, she was granted time served, but
she was still not exonerated of the charges, meaning to
the rest of the world, Nancy was still a conicted
child rapist. Fast forward to twenty twenty one, when there
(31:07):
was a changing of the guard in Lorraine County. We
had an open minded prosecutor who was going to take
a second look at it. The new prosecutor, JD. Tomlinson
actually started his own investigation into Nancy's case in conjunction
with Mark and his team. This was promising, and then
late one night, Mark was working in his office when
(31:28):
something completely unexpected happened. I get a call from Dino Grunden.
Dino was the son of Margie Grunden and Grace's older brother,
who said, I've got a story for you, Like I
have a daughter now, this is the same age, and
Margie Grunden is her grandmother, my mother, and Margie Grunden
(31:50):
is manipulating her the same way I saw Margie grunn
And manipulate my little sister when I was a kid.
She's doing the same thing again. She's like coaching my
own kid. And so I became concerned that Margie Garden
is trying to set up the same scenario that she
had done back in the nineties where she was able
to get money by using her own child, at this
time doing at their grandchild. The authorities confirmed Dino's allegations
(32:15):
by catching Margie on a nanny camp. They found that
the child was being coached when they left the room,
but they left the taper quarter on and she was
like practicing and practice crying and stuff. This is what
exactly what Dino Grunden was telling us was going on.
This revelation, along with an affidavit from the original investigator,
(32:35):
Detective Cantu, was enough for Prosecutor Tomlinson. After his own
five month investigation, Tomlinson was sure of Nancy's innocence and
he moved to have the charges dismissed, and at a
hearing on February twenty fifth, twenty twenty two, he offered
a public apology. Did you missed that? I apologize to you,
(33:02):
especially for what was done to you and to your
fans as a result of this ill conceived prosecution. I'll
be handed to the stable Ohio. I wish nothing but
the best for you, Andrew about most and I hope
that in the future only happiness and could fortune me
a bob, You're right, all right, I will be moving
(33:24):
this honorable courts to dismiss these matters. That day, Judge
Chris Cook vacated Nancy's convictions for the final time. Today,
(33:46):
Nancy is still living in Lorraine, Ohio. She's a dog
groomer and volunteers at her church to give back to
people less fortunate. She still doesn't like to go places alone,
but she's received much more support than she expected. I
would have people come up and say, can I just
give you a hug, or come up to me and say,
we're just so glad. We always believed in you. We
(34:07):
knew that this was fogus. We knew that this case
was not true. So Courtney, why do you think Margie
Grunden did this money? I think one hundred and time percent.
She concocted a game for money, and that's why she
did this. You know, to me, she's a narcissist. What
(34:29):
does that feel like that your mom's life was worth
less than some money? I think it feels horrible. But
you know, the older you get, the more mature you get,
you know, you really start understanding that there are truly
people out there that don't care, and they don't care
what they put other people through, and they're gonna do
whatever they want to get whatever they want. And then
this is just one of those cases. All it takes
(34:55):
is one person, one person, a Margie Grunted to do
this to you, and before you know what, your life's
just gone from you. You know, I mean, one thing
I can say today is that I will never ever
(35:18):
let somebody else do this to me again. But know
that I survived, and I got through this with the
grace of God. I got through this with Mark Godzi
and the Innocent Project. I got through this with Judge Burge.
I got through this with JD. Tomlinson. And I'll continue
to get through every obstacle that ever comes my way
in life because I know that I can, and I
(35:40):
know that I can, you know, continue not to live
the best life that I can do. To help Ohio
XS honorees, Nancy suggests supporting the Phoenix Initiative, which provides
clothing to Willa trees and other necessities to exonorees when
(36:02):
they're released. Links to this and to the Ohio Innocence
Project will be in our bio next time. Un Wrongful
Conviction with Maggie Freeling Tammy Vans. She was snoring really loud,
(36:23):
and all of a sudden it stopped, and I freaked
out and I telled THEE she's not breathing, She's not breathing.
They got on the phone with nine one one and
I Minister CPR until the ambulance got there. Thanks for
(36:44):
listening to Wrongful Conviction with Maggie Freeling. Please support your
local innocence organizations and go to the links in our
bio to see how you can help. I'd like to
thank our executive producers Jason Flam and Kevin Wurdas, as
well as our senior producer Annie Chelsea, producer Lila Robin,
and story editor Sonia Paul. The show is edited and
mixed by Annie Chelsea, with additional production by Jeff Cleburne
(37:07):
and Connor Hall. The music in this production is by
three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to
follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction, on Facebook at
Wrongful Conviction Podcast, and on Twitter at Wrong Conviction, as
well as at Lava for Good. On all three platforms,
you can also follow me on both Instagram and Twitter
(37:27):
at Maggie Freeling. Wrongful Conviction with Maggie Freeling is a
production of Lava for Good Podcasts in association with Signal
Company Number one
A warning for listeners. This episode contains graphic language and
descriptions of child molestation. Please listen with caution and care.
In nineteen ninety seven, Nancy Smith, a single mom, was
working multiple jobs to provide for her four children. One
(00:24):
of those jobs was driving preschool aged children to and
from the head Start program five days a week, and
Nancy took the responsibility seriously. I was there on time,
I was there to pick them up on time, and
I was there to take them home on time. You know,
I had four kids. I didn't have time to play around.
And then one day she was called into her boss's office.
(00:47):
One of the children's mothers had made a shocking allegation
against Nancy. They said that you didn't take her daughter
to school, you took her daughter to a birthday party
where you molested her. And I'm like, what what are
you talking about. Then other parents started coming forward saying
the same thing, that Nancy had molested their children. Soon
(01:10):
the allegations were all over the papers and TV. Things
escalated until finally Nancy was arrested for multiple accounts of reape.
They took me down to the police station. They put
me in a holding sale and I can remember one
of the detectives come up to the holding sale and
(01:30):
he just gave me this really nasty look and he said,
you'll get what you deserve. I'm Nancy Smith. I was
wrongfully convicted for fifteen years from Love of for Good.
This is wrongful conviction with Maggie Freeling today, Nancy Smith.
(02:05):
Nancy Smith was born May twenty sixth, nineteen fifty seven,
to Tom and Shirley Miller. She's one of seven siblings.
The family lived in Lorraine, Ohio, a suburb of Cleveland.
When Nancy was growing up, Lorraine was known as the
International City, celebrating the thriving and diverse immigrant population who
(02:26):
came looking for work in booming industries like steel production.
It was, of course, much better when I was growing
up than it is now. A lot of things have changed,
but it's, you know, still Loraine today. Like many other
Rust Belt cities, Lorraine has suffered from population decline and
urban decay. But back in the fifties and sixties, Lorraine
(02:50):
was the ideal all American city. We've left a normal childhood. Oh,
we used to play kickball. Jacks was a big thing,
jackson balls, just normal things that kids did. Always had
games and stuff that we played at home. You know,
we didn't have a whole lot, but we had the
love that we needed from my mom and dad. But
(03:14):
for her parents, raising seven kids was tough. My dad
was like the sole provider. My mom worked when she could.
But you know what did your dad do for work? Well,
he worked at a cemetery for forty one years. He
was a foreman at two different cemeteries. Did you go
to high school? Oh yeah, I went my whole senior
(03:35):
year and so embarrassing, and I flunked POD and the
six weeks POD. What is that? Problems of democracy? I mean,
which you know, I didn't really think I needed it
at that time. You know, although she didn't graduate high school,
(03:58):
Nancy was a hard worker. She held multiple jobs throughout
her teenage years, including at a flowershop, a marina, and
the local Why how would you describe yourself? Wow, I
don't know. I thought I was a good kind person.
You know. When she was nineteen, Nancy entered a new
(04:24):
phase of life. She got married and started a family.
I have four kids, and you know they're they're the
greatest part of my life. So tell me about growing up, Like,
what was your mom, like I mean, my mom was
my mom. You know. This is Courtney Smith, Nancy's second
(04:45):
youngest child. She's now forty two. No, I specifically remember
being you know, like happy. I mean to me, I
would say it was a normal, happy childhood. We lived
in a very clean household. You know, we never went without.
We were always fed, and we always had, you know,
what we needed, not necessarily what we wanted, but you know,
(05:08):
kids are kids, and Nancy was good at making do
with what they had. Okay, here's a memory that she's
probably not gonna laugh at, but I will um. The
one year for Christmas they gave us plastic like nice,
and then we had to cut the Christmas presents open
with knives like plastic, like, we were not allowed to
(05:30):
rip it? Right, Why couldn't you rip it? Because they
were being frugal, I don't know. And then you know,
my listen, Oh, because they wanted to save the paper. Yeah,
they were gonna they wanted to save the paper. Okay.
But although Nancy loved her children, her marriage was crumbling.
It wasn't a really happy marriage. She and her husband
(05:54):
eventually divorced. By nineteen ninety three, Nancy was in her
late thirties and all four of her children were teenagers.
She worked multiple jobs to make ends meet. You know,
it was pretty tough to make sure that, you know,
I could get my kids to school and be home
in enough time for them to you know, make them dinner,
get them ready for bed, and whatever. So it was,
(06:14):
you know, it wasn't easy for the most part of
being a single mom. You know, I did the best
I could. One of her jobs was driving a bus
for Headstart, a federal program for low income children under
five to prepare them for school. She also drove her
meals on wheels and the YMCA, So in between my
bus routes, I would deliver mills to the senior citizens
(06:36):
and then I also did a route for the YMCA
there after school program there and then I would finish
my day up with picking up the afternoon kids and
dropping them off at home. At the same time, Nancy
was also taking night classes to complete her geed. It
all made for a busy day. I made sure that,
(06:57):
you know, I was there on time. I was there
to pick them up on time, and I was there
to take them home on time. You know, I had
four kids. I had to do my job so i'd
get home to my family. I didn't have time to
play around. So I want to ask about May seventh,
(07:19):
nineteen ninety three. What do you remember about that day?
It started out as any other normal day. I went
to work and I got my bus, warmed up on whatever.
That's when her boss came over to talk to her.
When you're done with your bus route. He said, bring
your take your bus, put it back at the station,
and then come down to downtown. We'd like to talk
to you. And I was like, oh, okay, no idea, no,
(07:42):
I said, what's it about? And he goes, yeah, we'll
just talk to you when you get there. When she
walked in the office later that day, to her surprise,
the director of the head Start program was also there.
That's when she told me that a mother had made
an allegation against me. And I was like, what do
you mean an allegation against me? And she said, well,
(08:02):
they said that you didn't take her daughter to school,
you took her daughter to a birthday party where you
molested her. And I'm like, what are you what are
you talking about the whole thing? It seemed preposterous to Nancy.
I said, you guys, have my records, I said, you
have my Minley chet you have there's records shown that
this kid went to school. What are you talking about?
(08:24):
And they were like, well, you know, we just we
have to address it because this is what some others
accused in you of. But with all the documentation they had,
Nancy was certain they'd see the story wasn't true. I
followed the rules on my job, you know what I mean.
I had a bus aide with me at all times.
How would anybody accuse me of something like that? I
(08:45):
had two other jobs. When did people think I had
time to do this, you know? And then and to
accuse me being a mother of that. I can't even
tell you what that felt like. You can't even imagine
being a mother of four kids and having someone say
(09:06):
something like that about you. It's horrible. Nancy was suspended
from her head Start bus driving job while the allegations
were being investigated, but she still had a family to feed,
so she continued to drive her other roots and the
(09:28):
next thing I know, it just escalated to this nightmare
that ended me in prison for fifteen years. After a
mother accused Nancy of molesting her daughter, An official investigation
was opened. It was headed up by Detective Tom Cantu,
a respected twenty year veteran of the force. Cantu spoke
(09:51):
with the woman who made the allegations, Margie Grondin. He
also spoke to her daughter, to protect her privacy, will
call her Grace. While speaking with them, officers observed that
most of the information about the molestation came from the mother, Margie,
not from Grace. Grace actually said the abuse never happened,
until they noted Margie coaxed her to say otherwise. Police
(10:17):
said the little girl's responses became incoherent or illogical. The
doctor who examined Grace also stated that she didn't see
any signs of injury to her body. Based on these
initial interviews, the police determined that it was unlikely that
Margie Grondin's story was true, but it was a serious
allegation and the police were under pressure to do a
(10:39):
thorough investigation. Detectives then went on to interview the eleven
other children who rode Nancy's bus. None of them said
they were abused. In fact, they all said they liked
Nancy and that she was a nice bus driver. But
Margie Grondin kept it up. She went to the homes
of two of the children, whom we'll call Luke and Sarah,
(10:59):
and she told their parents that their children had been molested.
When Luke and Sarah were interviewed by the police, it
was clear they were simply repeating what their parents and
Margie Grondin told them to say. Detective Canto, for the
second time, determined there was not enough evidence to substantiate
the allegations, and he announced that he wanted to close
(11:21):
the case. I just thought it's never going to go
nowhere because I didn't do anything, you know, which at
first it didn't, and then next thing you know, Margaret
Grondin is all over the media talking about this. Enraged
that the police were not moving forward on charging Nancy.
(11:44):
Margie Gronden went to the media saying a molester was
stalking Headstart children and that the police were doing nothing
about it. I was just like, oh my god, what
is this woman doing, What is she doing? Why is
she doing this to me? I never had any problems
with her, and her child was always back at her house,
(12:05):
always at time. I mean, this woman used to give
me my buss aid gifts at Christmas time, at Easter time,
and then to turn around and make an allegation like
this against me was I was just floored, and Nancy
was especially confused when she found out what she was
actually being accused of. Margie grind and claimed her daughter
(12:26):
didn't go to school that day. Instead, she said Nancy
took Grace to the house of a man named Joseph,
who was allegedly Nancy's boyfriend, and that he tied Grace up,
put tape over her eyes, and sexually molested her with
a stick. At this point, had the name Joseph been
brought up to you, I never knew about Joseph Allen
(12:48):
until his pitcher hit the newspaper. This episode is underwritten
by AIG, a leading global insurance company. AIG is committed
(13:13):
to corporate social responsibility and to making a positive difference
in the lives of its employees and in the communities
where they work and live. In light of the compelling
need for pro bono legal assistance, and in recognition of
AIG's commitment to criminal and social justice reform, the AIG
Pro Bono Program provides free legal services and other support
(13:34):
to underrepresented communities and individuals. Thanks to Margie Grandin's public accusations,
Nancy found herself in the center of a media frenzy.
It was on every news channel, it was in the newspapers.
(13:56):
I had media coming to my house, knocking on my door.
Over the next few months, fifteen other children came forward
with stories of abuse by Nancy and Joseph. Ten were
proven to be baseless right off the bat, because those
children didn't ride Nancy's bus route. One of them didn't
even attend headstart. After these added allegations, Nancy volunteered to
(14:22):
take a polygraph, which at the time was still believed
to be a reliable method of detecting lies. According to
the test administrator, she passed so for the third time.
Detective Can'tu wrote a report stating that he believed the
allegations were unfounded and that he wouldn't bring any charges
against Nancy. Detective Can'tu was then taken off the case.
(14:48):
Other detectives resumed the investigation, and for months the only
information they had about the second suspect was that his
name was Joseph. The police ultimately believed five children, Grace, Luke, Sarah,
and two of the fifteen who came forward after the
media frenzy. They all had varying descriptions of Joseph, sometimes
(15:10):
saying he was white, sometimes black, and sometimes black with
white spots. One of the children identified a white man
whose name was not Joseph, as the perpetrator, but his
house did not match the description of the house the
children had given, so he was ruled out. Another white man,
the owner of a gay bar, was identified and also
(15:32):
ruled out. The police became frustrated with the children's muddled
and unreliable information, and while trying to get answers, they
asked leading repetitive questions designed to fit the narrative given
by the parents. So when you do start seeing these
media reports that its it starts becoming an actual situation.
(15:55):
I think when it first hit me was the day
that they rest at me in front of my kids.
The arrest happened six months after the alleged crimes took place,
on November tenth, nineteen ninety three. They came to my parents'
(16:16):
home and it was like five cop cars and they
handcuffed me in front of my children. That's something they
should never have had to worry about, and that's something
that I never should have had to worry about. Eventually,
police also settled on their second suspect, a thirty nine
year old black man named Joseph Allen, who was being
(16:37):
investigated for an unrelated crime. Nancy remembers seeing his picture
in the news before they were both arrested, and that
was the first time that I actually ever seen Joseph Allen.
I remember calling Jack Bradley, my attorney at the time,
and I was like, oh my god, Jack, who is
this guy. I don't even know who the guy is.
And he said, well, they're trying to say that this
(16:59):
was your boyfriend. I said, I don't know who this
man is. I've never even met this man before. Nancy
was charged with multiple accounts of rape. I'm trying to
remember if they even said anything to me. I mean,
at this point, I think I just kind of like
just blanked out because they you know, they handcuffed me.
They took me down to the police station. They put
(17:22):
me in a holding cell, and I can remember one
of the detectives come up to the holding cell and
he just gave me this really nasty look and he said,
you'll get what you deserve and he walked away, and
you know, I'm sitting there, I'm I'm just I'm crying
and I don't know what to do. You know, they
(17:42):
just let me lay there for hours and hours and
hours on this just this still bed, nothing, just a
play still bed. They just let me lay there for
hours and hours and hours. The trial started in July
(18:06):
of nineteen ninety four. The prosecutor was Jonathan Rosenbaum. He
called Margie Grondin along with a few other parents to
testify as to what they heard and saw from the children.
He also called a bus aid who said she had
previously seen Joseph Allen with Nancy during her bus route.
He also presented four of the five children who said
(18:26):
they were molested. One of them said on the stand
the abuse never happened, but the other three went into
detail when talking about the sexual allegations. It's the sort
of things that like a kid who doesn't actually know
about sexual interactions might say when someone says, what happened
to you down there? This is Mark Godsey, a professor
(18:48):
of law at the University of Cincinnati College of Law
and director of the Ohio Innocence Project. He says the
kids stories were not only inconsistent with each other and
with the previous statements, but that they were also obviously
made up, so they would say things like, you know,
they stuck sticks up our butt, they make us drink pe.
This is like the sort of ridiculous things at three
(19:10):
and four year olds when they're doing bathroom talk talk about.
I mean, it was just ridiculous, you know, to sit
there and watch these little kids talk about something that
they didn't even know what they were talking about, including
things like I was tied up to a tree out
on a busy street and I was naked, and I
was tied up all day long, Like like any kid
(19:31):
that's like four years old is going to be naked
and tied to a tree right by a busy road
all day and somebody's not going to call the police,
and no one's going to have any memory of this,
you know, just very bizarre type things. I mean, I'm
sitting there listening to this, like, are you kidding me?
I mean, are you really kidding me? Where's this ship
coming from? Can I cuss? Because I have a bat?
(19:55):
I'm sorry. I get when I start getting talking about it,
I get, really I can say some pretty horrible words.
Mark understands why Nancy is frustrated. The thing that's difficult
about this case is that it's hard to imagine how
bad the defense attorney did. The defense attorney was Jack Bradley.
Mark says that Bradley did a horrible job at presenting
(20:18):
evidence to disprove the allegations. There are things that you
just can't get past that proved this did not happen,
and they were all either not introduced or ignored. It
was like a perfect storm. For example, on the day
in question, and every day there was a babysitter in
the back of the bus who was willing to testify
(20:40):
I was back there. There was never a day where
I got taken to some boyfriend of Nancy's house and
these kids were molested. Of course, not right, and this
person was not called as a witness, Like, how can
you make this up? There were attendance records showing that
the kids were there on the day in question, and
in fact, the kids who were part of this allegation
(21:02):
and testified at trial were never all absent on the
same day. Was that brought up at trial when Bradley
called Nancy to testify, she said she had never seen
Joseph Allen in her life. He also called a transportation
manager from a local County agency who testified that they
checked Nancy's bus mileage and did not detect any side trips,
(21:23):
but no documents were entered into evidence or shown to
the jury. It doesn't matter if you think the allegations
like it doesn't matter if they're ludicrous. If you've got
evidence showing it didn't happen, you still got to introduce it.
The defense attorney didn't introduce any of it, and to evidence,
I think he thought there's no way there's going to
be a conviction. I mean, that was like a fog,
(21:47):
sitting in this trial by a man that I didn't
even know, being falsely accused of molesting children, having my
family sitting in a court room and listened to this
appalling ship that was coming out of their mouth, the lies,
and the people getting on stand and lieing, and just
did you think that you would be convicted? No, No,
(22:11):
there's no way. I thought there's no way. But on
August fourth, nineteen ninety four, Nancy was convicted of all charges.
She was sentenced to thirty to ninety years in prison.
And I can remember Jonathan Rosa Bob making a smirk
ass face that he always did, and I lunched toward
(22:33):
the table. I remember that Jack. I remember Jack pulled
me back and thend them taking me down to the
holding cell. I mean, I felt like I was like,
it was just so unreal. I'm sorry, I don't need
to cry. It's so hard to try to relive this.
(22:55):
Nancy's daughter, Courtney, who was fourteen at the time, also
remembers that moment her mom was convicted. She and her
siblings weren't allowed in the courtroom, so she was in
the hallway of the courthouse watching the trial on TV.
I remember watching it going dumbfounded, right, like what is
(23:17):
going on? And uh? I remember like all the newspapers,
you know, the reporters and the TV stations and they're
all flashing and I remember screaming at Margie and going
are you happy now? The B word? And the next day,
I know, I'm being like pulled away and she's like,
your mother did this, you know, and I'm like, no,
(23:39):
she did it, but you know, they pulled me out,
and then I just remember sitting there going, what's gonna
happen to us? You know? After the convictions, Margie Grondin,
(24:03):
along with several other parents, sued the Lorraine County Head
Start program for damages. They won their cases and settled
for one point five million dollars each. So in the
eighties and nineties we went through this era where there
were a couple famous cases where individuals claimed that their
(24:26):
very young children had been sexually abused in daycarese that
had some sort of deep pockets behind them, like Headstart,
federally funded places. You could get some sort of big
settlement and it was like part of the Satanic panic
where the parents who would be able to draw up
these charges were making millions. The phrase satanic panic came
about because, in addition to molestations, children sometimes also described
(24:49):
satanic rituals, which is flying through the air and other
bizarre events. One of the most notorious examples is the
McMartin case. In the early nineteen eighties, members of the
McMartin family, who operated a preschool in Manhattan Beach, California,
were charged with hundreds of acts of sexual abuse involving
children under their care. The story set off a national
(25:12):
media frenzy. It was like this hysteria that was like
whipped up that, Oh my god, all these little kids
are being molested by these daycare centers. This is like
a you know, a pandemic. This is a huge problem
that's going on and sweeping the country. The McMartin case
was ultimately dismissed seven years later, but not before dozens
(25:32):
of similar, unfounded lawsuits had erupted back in the nineties
and even the eighties. Were you aware of any other
cases like yours, like specifically this McMartin case is a
really famous one. No, No, I never, you know, I mean,
I was too busy being a mom and doing what
I was doing to you know, really wasn't into the
news and stuff like that. After her sentencing, Nancy was
(25:57):
sent to Marysville Reformatory. It's prison in Ohio. I think
the first two years I cried myself to sleep every night.
So Courtney, did you stay close with your mom? Oh? Yeah,
We talked whenever she could afford to, And it got
easier when I had a job so we could send
her buddy. Somebody would always take us down, you know,
(26:21):
like it was like a monthly thing. And then when
we got old enough when we could go ourselves. I
mean there was times that I took friends with me
so they could meet her. What is seeing your mom
in prison? Like? No, it's not a fun, enjoyable experience.
So it really was never a pleasant experience, but at
least we were able to go see her. Eventually. Nancy
(26:44):
felt some joy when she joined the prison's horticulture program,
like that was my saving grace. I mean, honestly, I
did this program for nine years and then the man
who ran the program asked me if I would stay
on at his aid, and so I would be the
one that they would go in the greenhouse and just
(27:04):
water all the flowers. I can remember just putting my
headphones on and just go in there and just thinking
I was just in a whole different place. After Mark
and the Ohio Innocence Project took on her case, things
(27:27):
started to turn around for Nancy. In two thousand and nine,
a new state law in Ohio required Nancy to be resentenced.
Mark and his team petitioned the court arguing there was
not enough evidence for a conviction, and Judge James Burge agreed.
So Nancy's conviction was vacated and she went home and
I thought, oh my god, this is fine. This nightmare
(27:48):
is finally over. It's finally over. But thirty days later,
the state appealed the ruling. And Nancy's conviction was restored.
She didn't return to prison them her hearing was delayed
for two years, and during that time, Nancy tried to
resume a semblance of normalcy. So what was picking up
(28:09):
the pieces of your life? Like? The first five years,
I was home, like I wouldn't go anywhere without anybody.
Somebody had to be with me at all times, because
I don't know how I would react as half somebody
come up and say something really negative to me. I
was already angry for all these years that I spent
in prison and fighting this case for so many years,
and so the first five years was really tough for
(28:31):
me to know the postmatic stress disorder, the anxiety, not
knowing if I'm going back to prisoners, stay at home
or whatever. In the meantime, Mark and his team were
focused on filing a post conviction motion for clemency based
on a bombshell video they discovered that had been withheld
by the prosecution. The video showed the police lineup where
(28:53):
the children from Headstart were being asked to identify their molester,
and what was actually going on in that room was shocking.
The parents were coaching during the I wouldn't identification and
like taking the kid's hands and pointing them at Joseph Allen.
The Ohio Innocence Project also compiled records showing the abuse
could not have occurred because all the children were in
(29:16):
school the day it supposedly happened, and they submitted affidavits
from Nancy's bus aides stating that they saw Nancy drop
the kids at school. On top of that, Mark and
his team also submitted to the court records showing she
was working two other jobs the afternoon in question. In
April of twenty twelve, Mark, along with the law firm Davis,
(29:38):
Polk and Wardwell, filed a petition for clemency with the
Ohio Parole Board and Governor John Kasik. In addition to
Nancy's innocence, the petition also argued that child psychologists have
since discredited the techniques used for questioning the children at
the time this was going on. What the common belief
was that if a kid is saying this, it must
(29:59):
be true, because why would a kid make this up?
And you know, from the mouths of babes, you know,
like that's the phrase that kids are always telling the
truth because they don't they don't know to lie yet
when in reality, when they're being coached or when an
adult is trying to get them to say something, they're
very adaptable and they're very easy to manipulate and get
to say what the adult wants them to say. You know,
(30:20):
children will come to believe what they're being told over
and over again and what they're being coached to believe.
And that's well established in the psychological literature. And now
decades later, when the smoke is cleared, we realized that
this was most of these people are actually innocent. A
lot of these cases were drummed up for people who
were seeking to sue and get monetary damages, and that's
exactly what Nancy Smith got unfortunately wrapped up in. In
(30:45):
twenty thirteen, Nancy was finally resentenced to twelve years and
having already served fourteen, she was granted time served, but
she was still not exonerated of the charges, meaning to
the rest of the world, Nancy was still a conicted
child rapist. Fast forward to twenty twenty one, when there
(31:07):
was a changing of the guard in Lorraine County. We
had an open minded prosecutor who was going to take
a second look at it. The new prosecutor, JD. Tomlinson
actually started his own investigation into Nancy's case in conjunction
with Mark and his team. This was promising, and then
late one night, Mark was working in his office when
(31:28):
something completely unexpected happened. I get a call from Dino Grunden.
Dino was the son of Margie Grunden and Grace's older brother,
who said, I've got a story for you, Like I
have a daughter now, this is the same age, and
Margie Grunden is her grandmother, my mother, and Margie Grunden
(31:50):
is manipulating her the same way I saw Margie grunn
And manipulate my little sister when I was a kid.
She's doing the same thing again. She's like coaching my
own kid. And so I became concerned that Margie Garden
is trying to set up the same scenario that she
had done back in the nineties where she was able
to get money by using her own child, at this
time doing at their grandchild. The authorities confirmed Dino's allegations
(32:15):
by catching Margie on a nanny camp. They found that
the child was being coached when they left the room,
but they left the taper quarter on and she was
like practicing and practice crying and stuff. This is what
exactly what Dino Grunden was telling us was going on.
This revelation, along with an affidavit from the original investigator,
(32:35):
Detective Cantu, was enough for Prosecutor Tomlinson. After his own
five month investigation, Tomlinson was sure of Nancy's innocence and
he moved to have the charges dismissed, and at a
hearing on February twenty fifth, twenty twenty two, he offered
a public apology. Did you missed that? I apologize to you,
(33:02):
especially for what was done to you and to your
fans as a result of this ill conceived prosecution. I'll
be handed to the stable Ohio. I wish nothing but
the best for you, Andrew about most and I hope
that in the future only happiness and could fortune me
a bob, You're right, all right, I will be moving
(33:24):
this honorable courts to dismiss these matters. That day, Judge
Chris Cook vacated Nancy's convictions for the final time. Today,
(33:46):
Nancy is still living in Lorraine, Ohio. She's a dog
groomer and volunteers at her church to give back to
people less fortunate. She still doesn't like to go places alone,
but she's received much more support than she expected. I
would have people come up and say, can I just
give you a hug, or come up to me and say,
we're just so glad. We always believed in you. We
(34:07):
knew that this was fogus. We knew that this case
was not true. So Courtney, why do you think Margie
Grunden did this money? I think one hundred and time percent.
She concocted a game for money, and that's why she
did this. You know, to me, she's a narcissist. What
(34:29):
does that feel like that your mom's life was worth
less than some money? I think it feels horrible. But
you know, the older you get, the more mature you get,
you know, you really start understanding that there are truly
people out there that don't care, and they don't care
what they put other people through, and they're gonna do
whatever they want to get whatever they want. And then
this is just one of those cases. All it takes
(34:55):
is one person, one person, a Margie Grunted to do
this to you, and before you know what, your life's
just gone from you. You know, I mean, one thing
I can say today is that I will never ever
(35:18):
let somebody else do this to me again. But know
that I survived, and I got through this with the
grace of God. I got through this with Mark Godzi
and the Innocent Project. I got through this with Judge Burge.
I got through this with JD. Tomlinson. And I'll continue
to get through every obstacle that ever comes my way
in life because I know that I can, and I
(35:40):
know that I can, you know, continue not to live
the best life that I can do. To help Ohio
XS honorees, Nancy suggests supporting the Phoenix Initiative, which provides
clothing to Willa trees and other necessities to exonorees when
(36:02):
they're released. Links to this and to the Ohio Innocence
Project will be in our bio next time. Un Wrongful
Conviction with Maggie Freeling Tammy Vans. She was snoring really loud,
(36:23):
and all of a sudden it stopped, and I freaked
out and I telled THEE she's not breathing, She's not breathing.
They got on the phone with nine one one and
I Minister CPR until the ambulance got there. Thanks for
(36:44):
listening to Wrongful Conviction with Maggie Freeling. Please support your
local innocence organizations and go to the links in our
bio to see how you can help. I'd like to
thank our executive producers Jason Flam and Kevin Wurdas, as
well as our senior producer Annie Chelsea, producer Lila Robin,
and story editor Sonia Paul. The show is edited and
mixed by Annie Chelsea, with additional production by Jeff Cleburne
(37:07):
and Connor Hall. The music in this production is by
three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to
follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction, on Facebook at
Wrongful Conviction Podcast, and on Twitter at Wrong Conviction, as
well as at Lava for Good. On all three platforms,
you can also follow me on both Instagram and Twitter
(37:27):
at Maggie Freeling. Wrongful Conviction with Maggie Freeling is a
production of Lava for Good Podcasts in association with Signal
Company Number one
Hosts And Creators
Lauren Bright Pacheco
Maggie Freleng
Jason Flom
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