May 8, 2025 • 58 mins
Coming of age in Honduras, Clemente “Shorty” Aguirre was faced with a choice: join MS13 or die. He moved to Nicaragua with his grandmother instead, but with no economic prospects, he chose to come to the United States as an undocumented immigrant. Life was calm for a while, as he worked as a cook and lived in a trailer park, where he had found a place in a nice community of friends. Then, on June 17th, 2004, after a long night out, Shorty dropped by a neighboring trailer shared by his friends Cheryl Williams, part-time by her daughter Samantha, and her mother Carol Bareis. They were known for always having a stockpile of beer, and Shorty was going to ask them for an early morning nightcap, when he discovered Cheryl and Carol had been stabbed and were lying in pools of their own blood. Realizing that they were gone and that making a call to the police would certainly get him deported to a country where MS13 awaited his return, he went to his own trailer to lay low. Later that day, he came forward to investigators with his discovery and became the prime suspect. With the combination of an ineffective public defender, the prosecution’s tunnel vision, and plenty of circumstantial evidence, Clemente would be tried, convicted, and sentenced to death.
If you feel compelled to support Clemente, please go to: https://www.mightycause.com/story/Clementeaguirree2019
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hey, I'm Ben Bullet. You might know my podcast stuff
they don't want you to know. And if you like
Wrongful Conviction, you'll see that we have a vibe in
common in that we bring stories that need to be
told to the wider world. And with our pal Jason
out of town, the Lava for Good team invited me
to introduce a few of my favorite episodes. So as
(00:24):
a guy who lives in Georgia, I loved hearing a
story so close to home, one that was also recorded
very close to home. The interview we're about to hear
took place at the twenty nineteen Innocence Network conference held
here in Atlanta, and the guest Clemente Shorty. Again, his
story is particularly resonant in this current political climate. He's
(00:46):
a Honduran man who established himself in the US. He
got wrongfully convicted of a double murder, and then he
got sent to death row in Florida, only to later
be exonerated by DNA evidence and the real killer's multiple
out of court confessions. Shorty is off death row right
now and out of prison, but as of this recording,
(01:09):
he could still be deported back to Honduras, where honestly
another death sentence awaits, this time at the hands of
the gang he refused to join so many years ago.
His story is an incredible one, and it's one that
needs our attention right now. So let's hear from the
man himself.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
Clemente Shorty Aguire grew up in Honduras, but in two
thousand and one, when rival street gangs demanded that he
pick aside or die, he found himself with no choice
but to run. He escaped to the United States, crossing
our southern border illegally, and ultimately he found work as
a cook, living in Seminole County, Florida, in a trailer park,
where he formed friendly ties with various neighbors. But on
(01:52):
June seventeenth of two thousand and four, Shorty was hanging
out into the wee hours of the morning when he
went to his friend Cheryl Williams's trailer to grab a beer,
and there he found himself inside of a gruesome crime scene.
The trailer had been ransacked and was covered in blood.
Cheryl and her mother Carol had been stabbed repeatedly and
were dead. He checked the bodies for signs of life,
(02:12):
thereby inadvertently tampering with the crime scene. Knowing that nothing
would bring them back, and fearing deportation or worse, he
chose to stay quiet initially, but later that day Clemente
came forward about his discovery. His immigration status and unwitting
crime scene tampering made him a prime suspect, and with
the deadly combination of an ineffective public defender and the
(02:34):
prosecution's tunnel vision, Clemente was convicted and sent to death row.
In this episode, recorded at the Innocent Network conference in Atlanta,
we speak with Clemente Shortia Giri and one of his
lead post conviction attorneys, Maria Deliberado, who, along with a
list of mostly pro bono private council would properly reinvestigate
the crime and test the one hundred and ninety seven
(02:54):
pieces of crime scene evidence that had never been tested
for DNA. Ultimately excluding they even found new evidence that
would lead to the identity of the woman who was
almost certainly the true perpetrator and who confessed to the
crime on numerous occasions, Cheryl's own daughter, Samantha Williams. Shorty
spent over fourteen long years in prison, most of it
(03:16):
on death row, for a crime he simply did not
commit This is wrongful Conviction. You're listening to Wrongful Conviction.
You can listen to this and all the Lava for
Good podcasts one week early and ed free by subscribing
to Lava for Good Plus on Apple Podcasts. Welcome back
(03:45):
to Wrongful Conviction. Today's show is going to take you
on a journey that you will probably never forget, and
not because of anything I'm going to say, but because
of the story you're going to hear. And today we
have as our very special guest, Clemente aka Shorty Agere
(04:08):
from Honduras, right, who was wrongfully convicted in Florida the
double murder and who served fourteen years and four months
on death row. Shorty, welcome to rofl Conviction.
Speaker 3 (04:21):
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 2 (04:22):
As I always say, I'm sorry you're here, but I'm
happy you're here. So you know how that and with
him is one of his incredible we'll just call it
what it is, dream team of lawyers. Maria Deliberado, which
is a great name for lawyer, by the way, not
for nothing. It's perfect and so Maria, welcome to rofl Conviction.
Speaker 4 (04:42):
Thank you, happy to be here.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
So Shorty, you were you were sort of a star
in your native country, right, I guess.
Speaker 3 (04:50):
So you can say that I was very likable, friendly
play soccer when I'm singing competition representing in this.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
I was told it was like the American Idol of Honduras.
Is that right? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (05:04):
I were called championships and it was between the school
so it was knowledge, it was dancing, and it was singing.
So I performed I and I want the first place?
Speaker 2 (05:15):
Wow? And how old were you?
Speaker 3 (05:16):
I was ten years old?
Speaker 2 (05:17):
Ten years old, so amazing start to a crazy journey.
And is it true that as a result of you
winning this competition, the gang's kind of left you alone
for a while, right, for.
Speaker 3 (05:28):
A little bit, since Sia was going to school those times,
it really wasn't di Stronos. Again, in that period of
time when growing up and going to high school, I
was well known because I played soccer there. But my
problem was I live in a neighborhood with a rival
game and I play and go to school with the
(05:50):
other gang high power off. So it was very controversial
because one would say I belonged to one and the
other one would say I belonged to the other one,
which it wasn't the case.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
And in fact, you were able to belong to neither
of them because of the status that you enjoyed being
sort of this celebrity in your area.
Speaker 3 (06:07):
Right basically, and because my mother too, she didn't play,
and I have this select group of friends. It was
seven of us. It didn't attract to us anything about
no game at all.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
But then, as I understand it, when you got a
little older the gangs, you were going to join the
gang or get killed basically.
Speaker 3 (06:25):
Right, Yeah, they told me they weren't playing. I was
harassed and put guns in a face. I live in
a neighborhood full of MS thirteens, and I got to
go to school where the eighteens lived. So when I
get out of the territory from the thirteens, the eighties
(06:46):
grabbed me and made me undress in public to see
if I didn't have tattoos belonging to the other game.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
Ultimately, you decided you had to leave because your life
was in danger. Right, But what was it that made
you Because that's a big step to leave your country,
And it's a very important story to tell right now,
especially right with what's going on in this country. Because
you had a crazy journey ahead of you. But what
was it that happened.
Speaker 3 (07:10):
Well, it was in two thousand and one January of
February around there. I was with my Beyonce to be
at a moment and the taxi pull up in front
of my house. I'm sitting down outside and they got
this raincoach, this long rail black coat and put an
(07:33):
a K forty seven and put it in my face.
The drivers step down and say, we ain't playing no more. TikTok, TikTok.
In that particular moment in time, my mom came out
at the door and say what you're doing? I said, Mom,
go inside? What good doe? She is out here and
(07:55):
I got a gon to my pace and my girlfriend
is holding me for their life. I'm like home down.
So they left. And then you say, TikTok TikTok mean
the clock is running. You need to tie up and
join all else. And December, a few months back, they
killed one of my best friends because he didn't want
to join AH. They killed him on December twenty, two thousand,
(08:23):
So it was very very scary. My mother said, you
go to your grandma. They sent me to Nicarawa and
then Nicaragua is no place to live. It's like it's
more poverty. They wasn't Honduras. So in two thousand and two,
my sisters came from the United States already with her residency,
and we went from there. I need to come to
(08:44):
the United States. I cannot live in Nicarada for poverty.
I cannot live in my native country because if I
don't join again, they will kill me. So the only
way I got out of here is go to the
United States.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
Addy, everything you've been through is enough for someone to
go through. But this isn't even the beginning. How did
you get from Nicaragua all the way to eventually swimming
across the Rio Grande.
Speaker 3 (09:10):
I came to Mexico and I buy some papers and
I learned a national anthem of Mexico and history. I
lived there for a couple of months, and I flew
to Mexico City and there to New Laredo, and from
there I went to a bar where when I got in,
(09:32):
there as this coyot. Back then it was coyot. You say,
it was no cartels and stuff like that, passing people
and these coyote is to say, okay, you have sixteen
hundred dollars on you. No, But I can call. So
we arranged that here is going to pass me through
all the way to Laredo, Texas. So he wanted me
(09:53):
to swing with this the did they go inside the
tire like inner two right, So because he asking me,
can you swim? And this moment in time, I feel
like I'm the micro fellow the river. I didn't know
how big real ground there really was. You see, I'm
picturing a river that is just like my grandma.
Speaker 2 (10:15):
It's like a stream.
Speaker 3 (10:16):
Yeah, I mean it's something that you can pass in
two minutes. I never thought I'm gonna take me seventeen
minutes almost to pass the river across that I almost drowned.
And you know, so he told us to take the
close off, so we did, but we keep the underwear on.
When he turned back and like, what you're doing. This
isn't no gay shit, teed you underwere off because when
(10:39):
you run, you need to be dry. If you wet,
it's gonna it's gonna hurt you and it's gonna slow
you down. Believe me, I'm doing this for a long time.
So we did. Put it in a plastic bag, put
in my mouth, start swimming. We make it to the
other side. Somehow, God only he could help me to
pass through that river because it was strong, and we'd
(11:03):
write off. He say, every paper that you have, every
picture that you have, throw it away, every money that
you have, throw it away. You cannot bring anything with
you to the United States unless it's American dollars. I
didn't have any American dollars, so you know, it was
fifty pests of Mexico. So I threw it away, and
(11:23):
he said, when I tell you so, follow me and run.
When we make it to the other side, it was
like ninety five people in there, you know, females, men,
you own, people from Ecuador, Columbia, Costa Rica, you name it.
So we saw immigration car pass by, and then another
one and you may say, I ain't waiting here. We're
(11:44):
taken off. So I'm taking after him because he got
my money. So I'm thinking I cannot let him go
away with my money. You know, how am I going
to make it to the other side. And this moment
in time, I'm in the United States, but I haven't
made it to civilization yet. With the off running, I
wasn't thirty second and we hear helicopters, police cars, dogs
(12:06):
and sirens saying stop, stop, but we're going to shoot.
We hear some shots at this moment in time, everybody
has take off running two and I'm running right next
to this guy. So I'm running and I'm asking him
where to where to? He didn't tell me where to
because I think I can run him. I really believe
I can run him. I'm so desperate to pass back.
(12:29):
So it's some shots. I don't think they were shouting
at us. I think they were shouting to the airth
so people get scared or whatever. But that's all I
hear in my neighborhood. So they really didn't call me anymore.
It was I'm so used to or I was so
used to. We make it to the fence, and by
the time we're going to jump the fence, I used
to feel this hand in my hand and say, senor
(12:51):
please my son. It was this woman running next to
me with the child in her hand. So I grabbed
the kid, I give it to the next guy. I
push her up, and then I jumped. We went to
a house call my sister went to Houston. From Houston,
came to my sister house March eighteen, six fifteen in
the morning. Three months sixteen day after I was out
(13:13):
of my house.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
Three months and sixteen days starting in Nicarago.
Speaker 3 (13:17):
Right, started from Honduras January second, all the way to
March eighteen, two thousand and three.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
And you ended up in Florida in a little town.
Speaker 3 (13:25):
Right, yes, and altamund spring.
Speaker 2 (13:28):
So you end up in Florida. You got a job, right?
Speaker 3 (13:31):
Yes. My boy saw me courting lawn and shaving some
kind of palms, and he led the way I work,
so he offered me a job as a discwatcher dishes
for a couple of months. And one day the cooks
were really busy, so my mom teached me how to cooks.
And I was six seven years old and everybody was busy,
(13:53):
and they saw me cooking for me. So my boss
saw and say, oh, okay, so you can cut, you
can prep. I think you're going to be good in
the prep line. So they may may do salads, bread
and prep everything for the line.
Speaker 2 (14:17):
So now you're moving up in the world a little
bit at a time, right, going from the cutting trees
or whatever to the to the kitchen and now doing
the prep work and starting to use your skills that
you had developed as a cook. So things are looking
up right right? And where were you living?
Speaker 3 (14:34):
I moved from my sister and Altimo Sprinto Longwood in
the trailer park in forty four.
Speaker 2 (14:41):
And the trailer park is a very important role in
the story. This is where this shit really hits the fan. Maria,
do you want to sort of set the table here,
because you've worked on this case for ten years, you
know every single detail of what happened.
Speaker 4 (14:55):
Absolutely.
Speaker 5 (14:56):
I mean I don't even really know where to start at.
I mean I used to be a prosecutor actually before
I did criminal defense thirteen years ago. And so from
that perspective getting this case, the fact that they saw
him as the suspect shut their eyes to any possible
other alternative is to me the biggest travesty here. But
(15:17):
I'll sort of set the stage, I guess in the
sense of he was living next door to the victims.
Speaker 4 (15:21):
It was a.
Speaker 5 (15:22):
Trailer part on Vagabond Way, and that was the name
of the street, and he had socialized with them on
more than one occasion.
Speaker 2 (15:30):
And this was a woman, her mother and her daughter
living together in this trailer.
Speaker 5 (15:34):
That's correct, Yes, And Clemente lived with two other men
about his age. They were both cousins, and so they
were about the same age as the daughter and her
brother also lived in the trailer for periods of time,
so sort of all people of his age Clemente at
the time. Obviously you can hear him today speaking English.
He didn't speak any English back then. He taught himself
(15:55):
English in prison, which is a great story that he
does need to tell at some point point. How he
taught himself English. It's one of my favorite stories that
he tells. But he didn't speak any English then, but
you know, he was able to communicate enough with them.
They shared parties, they shared drinks, sort of a friendly
neighborhood scene. The day that he was arrested, the mother
(16:17):
and grandmother were killed, and the morning that their bodies
were discovered, Monday had gone there in the morning, as
he often did. He had been out with friends the
night before. They always were known to have lots and
lots of beer. If you look at the crime scene video,
I mean there was just thousands and thousands of cans.
And in Florida, alcohol is sold in all the grocery stores,
(16:38):
but not until certain hours. So the grocery store wasn't
open yet, and Clemente was a you know, in his
early twenties. We can all remember what it's like to
be able to party all night in your early twenties.
And he had finished a hard day's work and was
letting this with some friends and wanted to keep the
party going. So he had just gone over there for
a beer, as he had done many times. They had
an open door policy.
Speaker 2 (17:00):
Let's turn over to you a climate day, because this
is such a nightmare. I mean, I've told your story
so many times, but you actually lived it. So can
you take us back to that day.
Speaker 3 (17:09):
I've been drinking all day, I'm going to go home,
and I went home, but I want another beer, so
I went inside and I didn't find it. So it's
why I wait until daytime to go to the next
door and ask for a beer, like I had done
dozens of time before.
Speaker 2 (17:22):
What time was it when you went over to It.
Speaker 3 (17:24):
Was like six something in the morning.
Speaker 2 (17:25):
Six in the morning, right, And so you went over
there as you've done so many times, to scoop up
a few more beers whatever? Right, What did you encounter
when you got there?
Speaker 3 (17:35):
I turn knocked the door, but when I touch it,
push open, But it didn't open all the way. It's
strange because I've been in the house. I mean, if
I want to give you a number over seven hundred times, right,
So I know that door opened all the way and
this time didn't. So I push it and it it
(17:58):
didn't go further than was So I look, it was
like a little window, and I saw Cherry Williams there body.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
This was the mom.
Speaker 3 (18:11):
That was the mother, Yes, Samantha's mother, yes, and Carol daughter.
Speaker 2 (18:16):
So you saw the body like, so that's why they
couldn't open the door because the body was blocking.
Speaker 3 (18:20):
But it was blocking it, yes, sir.
Speaker 2 (18:22):
Right, and so now you see the body. But is
there blood everywhere? Or what's the first thing that you.
Speaker 3 (18:27):
Her body is there? I just jump immediately inside without
thinking right, and she was too close to by the door,
so I had to close the door and touch her
dress looking for a pose. So I said, maybe I'm
too drunk that I don't feel it. So I picked
her up and put it on the top of my
legs into her neck because in the position she was,
(18:49):
I couldn't touch her neck. And a moment and asked
her to wake up, and she didn't.
Speaker 2 (18:57):
At this point, did you see there was blood and
there was.
Speaker 3 (18:59):
Yes everywhere, and now it was like a horror movie scene.
So I'm asking somebody here, and I find the grandmother
of her wheelchair almost under the table, so I want
to touch her too. She was dead, and I heard
this noise and I'm asking somebody here. And with that,
(19:24):
I walked in the house and my footprints were there,
and it was it was crazy.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
You found the murder weapon.
Speaker 3 (19:30):
Right, I did? I did. I saw it when I
saw the first victim. It was on the top of
a beer box, but I didn't touch it. Then I
touched until I heard the noise. Later I found out
it was a dog there. But I know, I'm crazy.
I heard the noise. So anyway, I went and grabbed
a knife like like a domas and uh, asking somebody here,
(19:57):
And I walked and I went to someon a bedroom
and everything was everywhere in the house. Chair will flowed down,
clothes was everywhere. Everything was like a like a Hura
camp passed by there and then I walked to the
next room, but I think went in there because I
(20:18):
found Cherry already. So I said, oh my god, what
am I going to do? So I took off running.
They got running again, This.
Speaker 2 (20:40):
Is a really bad scenario on every level. I mean,
you've got now the murder victim's blood on you, right,
because you've been trying to help them, trying to check
and see if they're alive. Obviously that was hopeless because
they were dead. You've got your fingerprints on the knife
right because you picked up the pick up. Yet, I mean,
(21:00):
it couldn't be any worse. You can't make it harder
for your lawyers, right in this case. I mean, this
is circumstantial levelis it doesn't get much worse than that.
And I'm sure when it eventually came to your arrest,
they must have looked at it like, okay, well, so
you don't really have to work too hard on this one.
We got this guy dead to rights, Well what did
you do? So? Now you ran? Where did you run too?
Speaker 3 (21:21):
I ran to my house. I'm debating. Am I going
to call the policeman? And the person I'm debating is
I know the police officer arrest you, they call immigration
on you. It's a fact, So they did. I mean,
(21:45):
and now I'm going to be deported for it, So
I know I didn't do nothing wrong, even though everything
sounds wrong so far. I didn't kill nobody anyway. So
I took a shower and I'm like, I can't copolice.
I decided against it because I don't want to be deported.
It was my fear. It was my fear, and legitn't
(22:08):
of fear because I'm running from my life. You know,
I'm running for my life. I don't want to be
killed in my country because I don't want to be
a criminal.
Speaker 2 (22:21):
Right, What an irony? Right? You were running away from
the criminals to come here to start a better life,
and now now you're going to be accused of a
crime that you didn't commit in the first place. And
the options are all bad. Right, You're either going to
go and get deported or you're going to get convicted.
I mean you must have known as well that things
were looking pretty bad. If you call the police, the
(22:41):
first person they're going to suspect. We know that in general,
in many cases anyway, the person who finds the body
is the person they usually.
Speaker 3 (22:49):
But honestly speaking, I wasn't afraid they are going to
be accused of the murder. I really wasn't, because I
know I didn't do it. I was more afraid than if.
Speaker 2 (23:02):
So what happened for you, sure.
Speaker 4 (23:04):
So, I mean he can tell it as well.
Speaker 5 (23:06):
But the police eventually came because Samantha's boyfriend, which we'll
later get to in more detail, actually was told by
Samantha to come to the house that morning to get
her laundry out of the dryer was the purported reason,
or out of the washer, and to check on her
mom and grandmother because she had a bad feeling. So
he comes to the scene about nine am. He finds
(23:27):
about easy of course, calls nine one one, and then
the police come. So by a couple of hours go by,
the police are there and you know, normally they're knocking
the canvassing the neighborhood. So they knock on the door
of Clemente's trailer, and first knock on the door, you know,
they didn't. They just said we don't.
Speaker 3 (23:43):
Know anything, We don't know anything.
Speaker 5 (23:45):
And the police that knocked on his door, nobody spoke Spanish,
so they were all English speaking, and everybody in Clemente's
house then only spoke Spanish, so there's also a language barrier.
And then later in the day, I mean, Clemente can
tell you why he felt compelled to come forward and
then sort of have that back out on him. When
he came forward and tried to tell what happened as
you said, they immediately were like, great, we've got our guy,
(24:07):
and they just started accusing him of murder pretty immediately
and threatening him. There was a female Spanish speaking detective
finally who came unseen, and Colemente wanted to talk to her.
He felt like he could trust her with the full story.
Speaker 3 (24:22):
I came forward. I say, this is the best country
in the world. I'm telling the truth. But they're going
to investigate and they're going to find out the truth eventually.
So I went and I say I found in it,
you know. And soon I say that I need to
speak with somebody who Spanish, and it was two people
behind her telling her get him getting When I asked
(24:45):
her to talk alone, the investigator told me if you
touch her, I'm fuck you up. I don't know what
that world mean, but the face that he put in
my face told me everything I need to know. And
I'm looking crazy and I say, no, no, I'm not
going to do anything.
Speaker 5 (25:06):
It also probably should be noted Clemente got his shorty
nickname because he's four foot eleven, so not exactly you're threatening,
imposing criminal, but.
Speaker 2 (25:16):
Also you have such a sort of a sweet gentle face.
I mean like if I was three feet eleven, I
wouldn't be scared of you, you know what I mean?
Speaker 3 (25:22):
Like right, So they bring me disinvestigator, and soon I
tell him about the first victim. He started kissing me
or rape. I know I didn't break nobody. I know
I didn't kill nobody. So I told him, well, he
mentioned something like, I don't need you to finish or
have an orgasm in her. I just need you to
(25:43):
penetrate her. And I got your DNA. I said, go
for it. They my DNA because I know I'm mean acent.
But there was a swap there. They took your fingernails,
then my pingernails, and and she went to dig. I
believe now nobody can take me out of these. She
was trying to cut me.
Speaker 5 (26:03):
When they took his fingertiped swabs they do the scrapings,
they like, jammed it under his nail.
Speaker 3 (26:08):
She went way too deep. So you can see it's
like you have to describe a little bit. You don't
have to go to deep. They always dishort always because
I work in the kitchen, so you know, I'm always
with sure nails and sure hair.
Speaker 2 (26:20):
Do you think they were trying to cut him?
Speaker 5 (26:22):
Because I think the perception that he tells the story
was there was a lot of hatred and animosity from
the police from the beginning towards him because he was
not in this country legally, because they believed that he
murdered these two women, one of them in a wheelchair,
and so they just treated him.
Speaker 4 (26:39):
You know, this whole theme of the.
Speaker 5 (26:40):
Conference that we're attending is presumption of innocence, and there
was none of that for Clemente.
Speaker 2 (26:45):
Right, And just for context, we're recording in a conference
room in Atlanta where the Innocent Network conference is being held.
So there's an amazing, amazing group here of over two
hundred exgneries and hundreds of lawyers and social workers and activists,
and it's an amazing, amazing place to be. And as
(27:05):
you said, the theme is presumption of innocence, which is well,
it's part of American jurisprudence. It's in the constitution, right,
but it doesn't actually work the way it's supposed to,
and certainly didn't in this case. So they interrogate you. You
didn't have a lawyer with you at the time.
Speaker 3 (27:21):
At that moment in time, I say, and your lawyer right,
do nothing.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
Yeah, and that's a common thing. I mean to be surprised.
How many people, even people who grew up in America
who maybe have higher education degrees or whatever, they think
the same thing. Well, if I just go in and
tell the truth. But when you get an adversarial situation
like you were in, it changes very quickly and people
are not expecting it. You had no reason to expect it.
But that's exactly what happened. And so at what point
(27:47):
did you become aware that you are now looking at
the potential of being well arrested, tried, and convicted. I
will even sentence to death.
Speaker 3 (27:57):
A wig later, they come and take my fingerprints and
they told me they found my left pump print in
the knife, which I say, it is impossible, and say,
how come you touched the knife? Yeah, but I'm right handed.
I'm not going to grab a knife with my left hand.
So they charmed me with murder and they told me
(28:20):
we're going to be asking for the death penalty. As
the state asked for the dead penalty. Send you to
death row.
Speaker 2 (28:27):
You've now been arrested you're locked up in the local jail.
Speaker 3 (28:30):
I assume, yeah, Seminal County.
Speaker 2 (28:32):
How long did it take from that point to go
to trial?
Speaker 3 (28:35):
Twenty two months?
Speaker 2 (28:36):
So you're in jail for twenty two months, Yes.
Speaker 3 (28:38):
Sir, Seminal County jail and sam for got to be
one of the most disgusting places to be at. The
food is terrible because it's private, you see, Seminal County
is private, so they run it the way they want to.
They beat you up, They put you in a place
where it's the camera. They beat you up in anything and.
Speaker 2 (28:59):
All that happened to you what happened to me? Because
you were the most notorious guy in the jail at
this time, right, your name is in the paper. You're
accused of a double murder or an illegal immigrant. You've
got the whole, you.
Speaker 3 (29:13):
Know, because of this brown little guy who apparently killed
two white people. By the time I got taken the trial,
I was found guilty in one hour fifteen minutes maybe
the jury the jury user.
Speaker 2 (29:31):
The jury was out for an hour and fifteen minutes.
Speaker 3 (29:33):
The trial last maybe four or five days, I mean
the criminal trial. The sentence in like another four days
aroun there.
Speaker 5 (29:42):
In Florida, the penalty phase in the guilt phase or separate.
Speaker 3 (29:45):
Yeah, it's two different trial basically.
Speaker 2 (29:47):
So who represented you a trial?
Speaker 3 (29:49):
The public Defender's officer Seminal County.
Speaker 2 (29:53):
And did they mount any kind of a defense?
Speaker 3 (29:58):
No, whats whoever?
Speaker 2 (29:59):
No defense?
Speaker 3 (30:00):
They did present a case on my he did it
because he drunk. He did it because he did he didn't.
You know, I didn't do nothing. You're trying to kill
me for something I didn't do. I didn't do nothing.
I am not going to take this to me. It
was no conceivable that I am going to accept you
calling me a killer. And I'm there and I'm not
(30:21):
going to stand up and call you a liar, even
you my attorney. I don't care. I didn't do nothing,
So you don't believe me after you he never believed me.
Speaker 2 (30:31):
Man.
Speaker 3 (30:32):
He didn't talk to nobody. I wasn't about until three
third in the morning with like thirty two people. He
didn't talk to no one of them.
Speaker 6 (30:38):
What you were wiping, I wasn't a bar before we
went to my friend's house, the three todd in the morning,
because back then they were saying I did a crying
three something in the morning.
Speaker 3 (30:50):
You see, then they changed it to early in the morning.
Speaker 5 (30:53):
They never really were able to pin down the time
of death because they were relying on Samantha and Mark
Benzan who said they saw the last alive at about
eleven thirty.
Speaker 4 (31:02):
And then they were found by Mark VanZant at nine.
Speaker 5 (31:05):
So the state was never able to really pin down
the time of death, so they just fit it to
the time when Clemente had said he went in there,
but he did have a solid alibi until three thirty
in the morning. He was at a local bar. It
was actually me who went into that bar for the
first time in probably two thousand and ten or so.
(31:26):
I mean, it's just inmfathomable to me that as a
criminal defense attorney, your client tells you where they were,
you know, in the preceding twenty four hours, and you
don't even walk into the bar to see, like, hey,
was he here? Is there anybody that we can talk to?
And I mean when I went in in twenty ten,
so this is mindjew six years after the murder, it
was a Saturday morning. I went in with my investigator
(31:47):
and kind of like sat down at the bars, maybe
eleven thirty.
Speaker 4 (31:50):
We didn't tell anyone we were coming.
Speaker 5 (31:51):
We just went and the bartenders like, you know, can
I help you? And we said, you know, we're looking
for Bob Buntruck, who was the owner. She said, oh,
he's not here, you know, can I help you? I said, well,
I represent Clemente Gary And it was like time stood still.
I thought she was going to drop the glass she
was holding. She was like, thank God, somebody is finally
helping him. I know he didn't do it. And to
(32:13):
walk into a place six years later and get that
kind of reaction for me as the lawyer handling his
case was just stunning. And she gave us a treasure
troes of information that actually led us to who ultimately
is the actual piller in this case.
Speaker 2 (32:28):
So yeah, and that's I'm getting the chill just thinking
about that. What a moment. It's very cinematic the way
you described it, But yeah, I mean it must have
really weighed on the people who knew you and knew
that you didn't do it. To be walking around with
that knowledge and yet knowing that you're on death row.
Speaker 4 (32:43):
And felt helpless.
Speaker 5 (32:44):
You know, there was no avenue for them because there
was no investigation by either the prosecution or the defense.
I mean, it was just a complete collapse of the
adversarial system.
Speaker 3 (32:52):
This particular lady who talked to her name is Jamie,
and she was the street almost in front of Samantha's
house until fight something in the morning, and I haven't
make it home yet.
Speaker 5 (33:06):
Yeah, so she actually ended up alibying him until you know,
five point thirty or and sort of aliby in the
house until then.
Speaker 3 (33:13):
Because I haven't made home yet. She was from Peter.
There's some peace, so Peter used to leave him from
a Samantha Williams house, so she stayed there with him,
having a couple of dreams that night. And I'm still
on my friend's house with all the two friends. I
haven't make it home yet.
Speaker 5 (33:28):
But the state just fit their time of death with
the time he said he went in the house. Once
he said he went in the house, they just had
tunnel vision and that was it. They just fit all
their evidence to comply with that.
Speaker 2 (33:40):
Wow. And we're going to get into Samantha in a minute,
because this is one of those cases, and there's probably
a dozen, maybe that we profiled on the show, where
all the signs were there that would have led even
a cursory investigation to focus on someone else, but it
was not necessary because they already had somebody that they wanted.
(34:02):
They had somebody who was an easy target, and also
somebody that apparently they didn't like, because they didn't like
the fact that you were here illegally or whatever their
personal biases were, you know. And it's worth noting too
that in a case like this, because it's such a
terrible violent crime, the idea that they would allow the
(34:22):
perpetrator to remain free just so they can close the
case and you put your life, you know, which they
viewed as expendable, apparently, it's really another very serious thing
to look at, right, I mean, the people in that
community were in danger. They still are, right, And let's
talk about that. Because Samantha, the daughter whose mother and
(34:43):
grandmother were killed, she had been in and out of
mental institutions dozens of times, right.
Speaker 5 (34:50):
In the upwards of like sixty I think she said
at the post conviction hearing she was Baker acted, which
is Florida's involuntary mental health commitment sixty times.
Speaker 2 (34:59):
Six is zero, that is, folks, right, So I mean
that's a full on revolving door in and out of
mental institution. And the fact is that, as I understand it,
she actually vocalized her plan when she was in the
mental institution. She said that she was going to do
this right in front of other people. Yeah, there was
a she announced.
Speaker 5 (35:18):
It a couple of years before the murders on one
of her Baker acts. She had to be restrained because
she was so violent in the hospital, kicking, spitting, throwing things,
And she said, with her mother right next to her,
I'll kill you. I'll kill all of you when I
get out.
Speaker 2 (35:31):
I'll kill you. I'll kill all of you when I
get out. And I guess she should have taken her
a little more seriously, and then we wouldn't be sitting
and having this conversation at all. And in fact, we
know now too that her biological evidence was found all
over the clime scene right, not just because she lived
there part time, but because she had actually done these
(35:54):
gruesome deeds and then left her own blood for.
Speaker 5 (35:59):
Some eight separate blod stands within inches of the victim's
blood throughout the trailer.
Speaker 4 (36:04):
None of Clement's DNA.
Speaker 3 (36:06):
So I always thought I stand up in court before
my trial and asked for the DNA to be testing.
They just told me, I need to be a specific.
I don't know what is specific me. I thought, it's
a crime scene. You're gonna investigate, You're gonna test everything,
because this is when I interact with the Innery Project.
(36:26):
And they asked me, what do you want us to tell?
I say everything, everything, her nails, the cheats, everything. So
it was one hundred and ninety seven pieces of evidence
with blood which nobody tells ever so pictured yourself accused
(36:46):
of a crime, which have so many pieces the evidence
to be testing for DNA neither to stay or you
attorney tested, and you asked the George vocally, please made
my attorney tested, and he said, you need to be specific.
Why would I be specific? Test everything? Right? I want
(37:07):
to prove that I didn't do it. Maybe the killer
left something behind. It was always always my argument, you
are not going to find my blood there because I
didn't do it. If you test them, maybe you find
something else. Right. The accusume or rape, the accuracyme of killing,
the acacimea, all of these things. I'm for eleven. If
(37:28):
I stab somebody one hundred and twenty nine times, I
ain't going to have this splatter blood all over. No
one drop or splatter blooding me. Everything is contact. Like
I say, it was my footprint on a round chair
that are fall down. A mirror was done and it's
(37:49):
not a footprint under it, it's on top of it.
They found her d NA that mirror, she saying trout
that mirror was on the wall when she left. But
they found her blo ain't her fingerprint? No mind, so
they didn't. There's nothing. So here I go to death
(38:22):
row no English beat up. They batting me up all
the time because I don't speak English, and that row
ye no no. The emails the guards because they thought
I was acting, so they thought it by beating me up,
(38:42):
I will speak English. So I started taking newspapers from
guard which to start reading. I don't know what I
was reading. And then I asked for a Bible because
I got a Bible in Spanish, you see. So I say,
maybe with a Bible in English I can translate, it's
going to be more easier for me. And they sent
me a Penhouse letter Book, number four, four hundred and
(39:06):
seventeen pages, Penhouse letter Book. It's a foot book, you see.
I didn't know. I didn't know what it was.
Speaker 7 (39:15):
The other inmates so we asked for a Bible because
you want to learn English, and the other inmates, I
guess thought it would be funny or I'm not really sure,
but that's how that's what.
Speaker 3 (39:26):
They give him Penhouse Letter Book number four. So that's
what I got. That's what I started reading. So I
stay at night when it was quiet and there was
no light. That's why my eyes I all missed up.
Now and I gave the light from the hallway, and
I got a bat up dictionary in Spanish and English,
and I will go there and I will go with
(39:48):
the letters. I read it seventeen times, the book, the
fuck book.
Speaker 4 (39:54):
Yes, so I taught himself English.
Speaker 2 (39:57):
That's amazing.
Speaker 3 (39:58):
But that seventeen time, I'm start getting a roused. And
I got so happy. Not because I got a roused,
you know. I got so happy because I got roused
because I wasn't understanding what I was reading. But now
I want to prove to my mother that I didn't
do this. And I started writing letters. One hundred and
(40:20):
seventy five letters I wrote. I roll oprah. I said,
I don't know who you are, but they telling me
you they could not television. Maybe you know somebody who
can teach this evidence. They turney came me for something
I didn't do, and next to it, I would put
a letter in Spanish too, so it was somebody who
speaks Spanish in my English that bad. They can translate it.
(40:44):
One answer me bad. Innocent Projic of New York in
Amerson from the Innocent Projects. And I got to meet Maria.
Remember I just have a polic defender. I didn't never
have a private attorney. I don't know what it's like.
And she told me she would never lie to me,
and that she will work hard, and that she thought
(41:05):
it was something wrong in my case. They got some
people were working and they would push for DNA. They
allow us to test eighty two pieces of evidence.
Speaker 5 (41:14):
First, the first time there was two drops of Samantha's blood,
and then we asked for the rest. Of course, the
state agreed to blood the first time, and then once
Samantha's blood came back and they had evidence of her
confessions which they withheld from us for anywhere from around
two years or maybe longer, hard to say, they objected
to any more testing. After two drops of her blood
(41:35):
come back. She's admitted that she's killed her family. They
object to more DNA testing, but it was granted, thankfully.
Speaker 2 (41:43):
And she confessed on a number of occasions to a
number of different people.
Speaker 5 (41:46):
Yeah, I think it's somewhere around seven or nine. But
this first one was a Baker act, one of her
many Baker acts, where she had tried to burn the
trailer down and sort of set herself on fire. She
was like, set some bedding on fire, and she told
a neighbor who told the police that demons in her
head had made her kill her family.
Speaker 3 (42:04):
She told her best friend Nikki, and two separate occasions
did she her mother When Nikki asked her, what did
you do? I heard them doing any stubbing motion to
her chest. Had grab my guy's tab in the chest.
According to the medical coach Saminar So, I never see
(42:28):
this woman named Nikki in my life. I don't know her.
She came forward to stay attorney and they send her back.
Speaker 2 (42:36):
So they didn't want to hear it.
Speaker 3 (42:37):
Oh, they don't want to hear it. They say they
got the killer. But she contacted my defense attorneys and
told them too. She testified it first conviction.
Speaker 2 (42:47):
Here. Kurus to her for not giving up right because
it would have been pretty easy for her to go
to the police and say I want to talk and
they say no, and then she goes, well, I try
my best. What am I going to do? Right? But
she actually took it to the next level type of view.
Speaker 3 (43:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (43:01):
And we had been piecing it together who she was
based on the.
Speaker 5 (43:03):
Police report because we could tell that's who the person
was in the statement that Samantha had made.
Speaker 4 (43:09):
The statement to.
Speaker 2 (43:10):
So now they start trying to backpedal, right now, all
of a sudden, they're like, wait a minute, We're going
to stop cooperating and stop giving you access. Yes, And
that's when the dream team really kicks into gear, right.
I mean you had not just you and Nina, but
Josh Dubin. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (43:24):
So that was at the retrial.
Speaker 5 (43:25):
So the post conviction hearing was done just by myself
and Marie Palmer, who's my law partner now in our
investigator Polly, and then Nina came down for the first
two days of the evidentiary hearing in twenty thirteen. That
was a two week hearing that we put on tons
and tons of witnesses, all the DNA, all of the confessions,
and then we lost, of course at the circuit court
level and.
Speaker 4 (43:46):
We knew that.
Speaker 5 (43:48):
We always had the idea of getting a bigger team
on this case. You know, it's one thing when lawyers
from my office at the time, you know, stand up
before the flour Spring Court and say this is a travesty.
It's quite another when we get the Innocence Project and
private law firms and you know, people really fighting for this.
Speaker 4 (44:04):
It makes a difference.
Speaker 5 (44:05):
So that was always our plan, and Nina was of
course amazing and instrumental in getting us help. So we
got lawyers from Alabama to do the appeal with us.
Speaker 4 (44:14):
They did the appeal at the flour Spring Court.
Speaker 5 (44:16):
We all worked on it and we got the reversal
in twenty sixteen, and that's when sort of the trial
team really came back together. And so my role sort
of formally ended in twenty sixteen, and then I just
consulted with the trial team and talked to Clemente every
Sunday for two and a half years while he was
waiting his retrial.
Speaker 3 (44:35):
Well, let me tell you something. We have a DNA
a confession for the perpetrator who DNA was found in
the crime seat, which she said she wasn't there. Red
Fresh Red Bright and then we have a judge. We
have a judge who keep denying. Now, we don't understand
what these judge followed the law. Right later we find
(44:57):
out that she's got detagenda against me, using my case
to get a promotion. She had stayed a sixty seventh
page drueling against me and brag about it.
Speaker 2 (45:06):
So she was trying to get elevated.
Speaker 3 (45:08):
Yeah, and used his case, used my case about it.
Speaker 4 (45:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (45:12):
She eventually was recused and did not preside over the retrial.
That's when Josh came on, Josh Stephens. He did the
jury selection and in front of her first time in
February of twenty eighteen, and her complete lack of knowledge
of the law. I mean, Josh just pointed it out
and we were able to recuse her from the case.
(45:33):
And then the trial started in October of twenty eighteen
with quite a team Josh picking the jury, Maury Parmer,
who's my law partner, Lindsay Bonie, Dylan Blackbrooks, Proctor, I mean,
just Jeff Horowitz. There was like, at one point Clemente said,
what did you tell them?
Speaker 3 (45:50):
Oh man? It was it was too many or them right,
And I'm like heyo, y'all making me look bad right here.
Some of you need to go see down the bag,
you know, I.
Speaker 4 (45:58):
Said some of them on the prosecution to make sure.
Speaker 3 (46:00):
That it was too many to me, I don't want
to look like, why this guy got so many Lowyoh
he got money. He might have done it, so I
don't want them to think like that. Ever.
Speaker 2 (46:11):
Wow, you went from having too little help to us.
Well you were thinking too much help. But it was
not the case. And Josh is an amazing guy. I mean,
it's funny because Nina originally introduced us I don't know
whatever a couple three years ago, and he says to me,
you know, I'm a church selection expert. I go, yeah,
he goes, I can look in your eyes and see
your soul. I was like, so, you know, he's a guy.
(46:36):
Here's that guy. He's amazing. Yeah. And he was keeping
me posted. Then when he was down there at Florida, Argua,
we were talking and he was giving me the updates
and he was really Yeah. It was a very intense time,
even for me watching from the sidelines from a thousand
miles away. So let's get to the good stuff.
Speaker 3 (46:53):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (46:54):
So then finally your conviction is overturned.
Speaker 3 (46:58):
On now October twenty seven.
Speaker 2 (47:01):
But they kept you on death row anyway.
Speaker 3 (47:02):
Until and then back to the county, back to the
county jail.
Speaker 2 (47:06):
Right. And it's amazing because you know, I talked to
give speeches a lot, and I talked to civilians all
the time about this work and about cases like yours,
and almost everyone says, but I understand, the convictions overturn,
you go home.
Speaker 3 (47:20):
That's not the way it works.
Speaker 2 (47:22):
I mean, sometimes it is, but in your case it
certainly was not. And the conviction was overturned. They're going
to retry you because they didn't like losing.
Speaker 3 (47:28):
Right. Oh, immediately they say same day, yeah, same day,
they say, we are going to retry the case.
Speaker 5 (47:35):
I mean, this was a unanimous reversal from the floor
Spreme Court in which the opinion said, no longer is
a Gary, the creepy, shadowy figure who lived next door.
He's escapegoat for her crimes. That's seven justices of the
Flora Supreme Court calling Samantha the murderer and they're still
trying him again.
Speaker 2 (47:54):
Okay, okay, yeah, I mean this is seven justices in
the Deep South. Yeah, with a guy who doesn't have
the same skin color as they do. I mean they're
saying and in the strongest possible way, that this is
not your crime, that this is a huge mistake. You
heard those words. How did that feel?
Speaker 5 (48:11):
So the prison doesn't allow They require twenty four hour
notice for calls, so we couldn't even tell him until
the next day. So opinions come out every Thursday. At
eleven opinion came out. We knew we couldn't get a
call to him, but we also knew it was going
to be on the news, and so I know, I
didn't interview. I think Lindsay did too, And I was like, well, Monday.
Speaker 7 (48:28):
If you're listening, congratulations, because we were going to get
to talk to him until the next day.
Speaker 4 (48:32):
But guys on the road heard it.
Speaker 3 (48:34):
They told me, yeah, hey, Tody, they're banging on the
bars and what I think you want to trial? I said,
hold on, man, don't play like that because it's too
it's too soon. It was six months, twenty days, so
they take twenty two months in answering and don't play
like that. Man. You know that's not funny. I'm serious, man.
They say a funny name like your like by name,
(48:56):
like the one you have. So hey, listen up my
name to say somebody say, Jody want a new trial.
Everybody go to the news and trying to find it.
And I got a frame named Alex Alex Pagan who say, yeah,
it's the Ogani pace in seven point four and we
went there and they were saying, I got a I won't.
Speaker 2 (49:18):
We have limited time left. But in the time that
we do have, I want to get to the ultimate victory. Right.
So they immediately announce they're going to retry you. They're
not done fucking with you yet. I can't think of
a better way to say that. But now you've got
the dream team, like we said, and you go for
the new trial, and you want to take this one.
Speaker 5 (49:39):
Sure, we start in November. We had sort of a
fall start in February. We ended up getting rid of
the judge who was clearly biased against him. We started
start in October with the new chief judge, incredibly fair,
promised both sides of fair trial, and totally delivered.
Speaker 4 (49:53):
Jury selection is ongoing.
Speaker 5 (49:55):
Josh is picking the jury to critical in court depositions
heard that really sort of crumbled.
Speaker 4 (50:02):
The States case.
Speaker 5 (50:03):
One was the ex wife of Mark Van Zant, who
discovered the bodies. Two of our lawyers, Mary Palmer and
Dylan Black, went to meet with her. She gave a
remarkable story in an Affidavid that Mark had always told
her that Samantha went out the window that night, the
night of the murders. He had always alibied her, always
said that she was with him all night. Turns out
he was a liar. We had listened to about twelve
(50:26):
hundred of his jail calls over the summer in which
he admitted that he was a liar. Mary Palmer did
an in court deposition of Mark that was just masterful.
It was like the climactic scene of a movie where
he basically just admitted that he was a pathological liar
and his credibility was done. And the second one was
Josh did a deposition of Samantha in court where she
(50:46):
effectively said, I do a lot of things when I'm drunk.
I guess it's possible I did this too, and.
Speaker 4 (50:52):
I don't remember.
Speaker 5 (50:53):
So between the actual murderer admitting hunder oath that she
maybe committed this crime and her alibi witness admitting that
he was a pathological liar and that she had gone
out the window that night their case was done.
Speaker 2 (51:11):
Were you in the courtroom when you were finally found
to be yes, I was.
Speaker 3 (51:17):
I was numb. Ah, I pray. I always think God
all win. And to me it was like had about experience.
You know, I lois looking at myself and I'm always
going to remember these I looking at me saying it over.
Speaker 4 (51:35):
Finally jury came in no, so the state actually announced.
Speaker 2 (51:40):
No prosper nol pross, which is short for a Latin
term that translates to quote, we shall no longer prosecute.
Speaker 5 (51:49):
They announced nor pross. We didn't know what they were
going to do. They had asked for extra time to
think about it. Turns out they were getting an immigration
hold put on him because they had never bothered to
do that in the fourteen years that he was locked up,
so that you know, he couldn't actually walk free from
the courtroom, which we were able to rectify later getting
him an immigration bond. So they had to put the
icehold on it. But we still didn't know what they
were going to do. We didn't know if they were
(52:09):
going to continue to go forward. And they came in
the courtroom was full.
Speaker 4 (52:14):
We were all sitting there.
Speaker 5 (52:15):
Nina flew down or like you got to come. We
think they're going to drop it. I mean they had
no way forward. Really, the state stood up and announced
a nol pross and I know I crumbled into a ball,
I think, almost on the floor. I couldn't believe it.
And the judge was so kind and kind of gave
everybody a minute. I went up and hugged Clemente and
we were all hugging, and then he wanted to speak.
Speaker 2 (52:38):
And you remember what you said? Yeah, what'd you say?
Speaker 3 (52:41):
I say, God send you angles so you feed, don't
hear from us, and you angered. You have called upon me.
And if I hear you, I will free you and
I will glorify you. I will give you many years
of life and I will show you my salvation. And
(53:03):
it sounds ninety one, fourteen, fifteen and sixteen. I think
everybody will help me out. The ones who send me money.
They want to make me look like a human being.
And I say, you don't have an enemy in me
from this humble legal immigrant. If I can forgive somebody,
I forget whoever, don't drunk me because I want to
(53:26):
live a better life.
Speaker 2 (53:30):
Wow, So I have one more question and then we're
going to wrap up. I think I already know the
answer to this question, but I'm going to ask anyway,
are you better about what happened to you?
Speaker 3 (53:42):
Angry? Better? Angry? Is what you ask?
Speaker 2 (53:45):
Better? Yeah? Better angry? Ye, it's sort of a similar thing.
Speaker 3 (53:48):
Yeah, somehow I think it's an injustice. This is I
know it's an injustice. Yeah, I can say I angry,
but I'm not hateful. You know. A long time ago,
I let that go because what's killing me. So the
(54:09):
way I see it now is I just try to adjust, man,
and I get aggravated for things, maybe because I got
stoked so many years ago. But I know I'm gonna
get better. It will, it has to be.
Speaker 2 (54:23):
I have to lead it, and it is. And it's
great to see you here. I almost when you were
talking about breaking down the corner when I was broke
down myself at to get a little lump in my throat.
So the tradition here at Wrongful Conviction is that at
the end of each episode, first thing I do is
thank you both for coming and being here. Thank you
(54:46):
having Aria and of course Shorty. And then my favorite
part of the show is this, because this is the
part of the show where I get to stop talking
and just listen. And so I would like to now
turn it over to you for any final thoughts that
you have. Again, thanks for being here and for everything
(55:06):
that you're doing, and I wish you, you know, all
the happiness in the world. And so Maria, why don't
you go first, and then Shorty you can close.
Speaker 5 (55:15):
Sure, thank you so much for having us and for
drawing attention to this case, and you know, obviously very
important cause overall, I mean, I think just for the listeners,
you know, like you said, if they end up on
jurys like really listen, hold the state to their burden.
But also when the exoneration happens and all the happiness happens.
(55:37):
You know, Clemente has a life to live and he's
trying to piece his life back together, and it's especially
hard for him because he's not allowed to work right
now because his immigration case is ongoing. You know, he's
fortunate for the benefits and the donations of others, and
that's something that we continue to rely on. So I
know that Innocence Project is going to do some fundraisers
for him. He does some speaking and people give him
(56:00):
donations for that. Unfortunately, he and I get to spend
He lives three miles from my house now in a
community for ex Houneries, so we see each other every
week for laundry and groceries. But you know, any kind
of donations that listeners are willing to do, we'll have
that set up pretty quickly. Just really supporting xuoneries. It's
great to do events like this conference that we're at,
(56:21):
but making sure that you know, after the dust settles
and their home, we continue to support them.
Speaker 3 (56:29):
Yeah, thank you for having me. Just taking back from there,
Yu get out is not enough there for you know,
after so many years incarcerated and almost everybody turned back
when you family members, loves friends going away. We need medical,
(56:50):
we need dental, you know, the mental health. But I
always remember the three sides of the story, hers and
the truth. They don't test evidence. I mean, they don't
want to find out the truth. And that's simple. If
it defended is so adamant to test the evidence. And
(57:12):
you an attorney at there, and you client asking you
to please test the evidence, maybe you should listen to him.
He might be telling you the truth. So thank you
for listening, and God bless you all.
Speaker 2 (57:31):
Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. You can listen
to this and all the Lava for Good podcasts one
week early and ed free by subscribing to Lava for
Good Plus on Apple Podcasts. I want to thank our
production team Connor Hall and Kathleen Fink, as well as
my fellow executive producers Jeff Kempler, Kevin Watis, and Jeff Clibern.
The music in this production was supplied by three time
(57:51):
OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us
across all social media platforms at Lava for Good and
at Wrongful Conviction. You can also follow me on Instagram
at It's Jason flamm Ralfel Conviction is a production of
Lava for Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company Number One.
Speaker 3 (58:07):
We have worked hard to ensure that all facts reported
in this show are accurate.
Speaker 5 (58:11):
The views and opinions expressed by the individuals featured in
this show are their own and do not necessarily reflect
those of Lava for Good
Hey, I'm Ben Bullet. You might know my podcast stuff
they don't want you to know. And if you like
Wrongful Conviction, you'll see that we have a vibe in
common in that we bring stories that need to be
told to the wider world. And with our pal Jason
out of town, the Lava for Good team invited me
to introduce a few of my favorite episodes. So as
(00:24):
a guy who lives in Georgia, I loved hearing a
story so close to home, one that was also recorded
very close to home. The interview we're about to hear
took place at the twenty nineteen Innocence Network conference held
here in Atlanta, and the guest Clemente Shorty. Again, his
story is particularly resonant in this current political climate. He's
(00:46):
a Honduran man who established himself in the US. He
got wrongfully convicted of a double murder, and then he
got sent to death row in Florida, only to later
be exonerated by DNA evidence and the real killer's multiple
out of court confessions. Shorty is off death row right
now and out of prison, but as of this recording,
(01:09):
he could still be deported back to Honduras, where honestly
another death sentence awaits, this time at the hands of
the gang he refused to join so many years ago.
His story is an incredible one, and it's one that
needs our attention right now. So let's hear from the
man himself.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
Clemente Shorty Aguire grew up in Honduras, but in two
thousand and one, when rival street gangs demanded that he
pick aside or die, he found himself with no choice
but to run. He escaped to the United States, crossing
our southern border illegally, and ultimately he found work as
a cook, living in Seminole County, Florida, in a trailer park,
where he formed friendly ties with various neighbors. But on
(01:52):
June seventeenth of two thousand and four, Shorty was hanging
out into the wee hours of the morning when he
went to his friend Cheryl Williams's trailer to grab a beer,
and there he found himself inside of a gruesome crime scene.
The trailer had been ransacked and was covered in blood.
Cheryl and her mother Carol had been stabbed repeatedly and
were dead. He checked the bodies for signs of life,
(02:12):
thereby inadvertently tampering with the crime scene. Knowing that nothing
would bring them back, and fearing deportation or worse, he
chose to stay quiet initially, but later that day Clemente
came forward about his discovery. His immigration status and unwitting
crime scene tampering made him a prime suspect, and with
the deadly combination of an ineffective public defender and the
(02:34):
prosecution's tunnel vision, Clemente was convicted and sent to death row.
In this episode, recorded at the Innocent Network conference in Atlanta,
we speak with Clemente Shortia Giri and one of his
lead post conviction attorneys, Maria Deliberado, who, along with a
list of mostly pro bono private council would properly reinvestigate
the crime and test the one hundred and ninety seven
(02:54):
pieces of crime scene evidence that had never been tested
for DNA. Ultimately excluding they even found new evidence that
would lead to the identity of the woman who was
almost certainly the true perpetrator and who confessed to the
crime on numerous occasions, Cheryl's own daughter, Samantha Williams. Shorty
spent over fourteen long years in prison, most of it
(03:16):
on death row, for a crime he simply did not
commit This is wrongful Conviction. You're listening to Wrongful Conviction.
You can listen to this and all the Lava for
Good podcasts one week early and ed free by subscribing
to Lava for Good Plus on Apple Podcasts. Welcome back
(03:45):
to Wrongful Conviction. Today's show is going to take you
on a journey that you will probably never forget, and
not because of anything I'm going to say, but because
of the story you're going to hear. And today we
have as our very special guest, Clemente aka Shorty Agere
(04:08):
from Honduras, right, who was wrongfully convicted in Florida the
double murder and who served fourteen years and four months
on death row. Shorty, welcome to rofl Conviction.
Speaker 3 (04:21):
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 2 (04:22):
As I always say, I'm sorry you're here, but I'm
happy you're here. So you know how that and with
him is one of his incredible we'll just call it
what it is, dream team of lawyers. Maria Deliberado, which
is a great name for lawyer, by the way, not
for nothing. It's perfect and so Maria, welcome to rofl Conviction.
Speaker 4 (04:42):
Thank you, happy to be here.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
So Shorty, you were you were sort of a star
in your native country, right, I guess.
Speaker 3 (04:50):
So you can say that I was very likable, friendly
play soccer when I'm singing competition representing in this.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
I was told it was like the American Idol of Honduras.
Is that right? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (05:04):
I were called championships and it was between the school
so it was knowledge, it was dancing, and it was singing.
So I performed I and I want the first place?
Speaker 2 (05:15):
Wow? And how old were you?
Speaker 3 (05:16):
I was ten years old?
Speaker 2 (05:17):
Ten years old, so amazing start to a crazy journey.
And is it true that as a result of you
winning this competition, the gang's kind of left you alone
for a while, right, for.
Speaker 3 (05:28):
A little bit, since Sia was going to school those times,
it really wasn't di Stronos. Again, in that period of
time when growing up and going to high school, I
was well known because I played soccer there. But my
problem was I live in a neighborhood with a rival
game and I play and go to school with the
(05:50):
other gang high power off. So it was very controversial
because one would say I belonged to one and the
other one would say I belonged to the other one,
which it wasn't the case.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
And in fact, you were able to belong to neither
of them because of the status that you enjoyed being
sort of this celebrity in your area.
Speaker 3 (06:07):
Right basically, and because my mother too, she didn't play,
and I have this select group of friends. It was
seven of us. It didn't attract to us anything about
no game at all.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
But then, as I understand it, when you got a
little older the gangs, you were going to join the
gang or get killed basically.
Speaker 3 (06:25):
Right, Yeah, they told me they weren't playing. I was
harassed and put guns in a face. I live in
a neighborhood full of MS thirteens, and I got to
go to school where the eighteens lived. So when I
get out of the territory from the thirteens, the eighties
(06:46):
grabbed me and made me undress in public to see
if I didn't have tattoos belonging to the other game.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
Ultimately, you decided you had to leave because your life
was in danger. Right, But what was it that made
you Because that's a big step to leave your country,
And it's a very important story to tell right now,
especially right with what's going on in this country. Because
you had a crazy journey ahead of you. But what
was it that happened.
Speaker 3 (07:10):
Well, it was in two thousand and one January of
February around there. I was with my Beyonce to be
at a moment and the taxi pull up in front
of my house. I'm sitting down outside and they got
this raincoach, this long rail black coat and put an
(07:33):
a K forty seven and put it in my face.
The drivers step down and say, we ain't playing no more. TikTok, TikTok.
In that particular moment in time, my mom came out
at the door and say what you're doing? I said, Mom,
go inside? What good doe? She is out here and
(07:55):
I got a gon to my pace and my girlfriend
is holding me for their life. I'm like home down.
So they left. And then you say, TikTok TikTok mean
the clock is running. You need to tie up and
join all else. And December, a few months back, they
killed one of my best friends because he didn't want
to join AH. They killed him on December twenty, two thousand,
(08:23):
So it was very very scary. My mother said, you
go to your grandma. They sent me to Nicarawa and
then Nicaragua is no place to live. It's like it's
more poverty. They wasn't Honduras. So in two thousand and two,
my sisters came from the United States already with her residency,
and we went from there. I need to come to
(08:44):
the United States. I cannot live in Nicarada for poverty.
I cannot live in my native country because if I
don't join again, they will kill me. So the only
way I got out of here is go to the
United States.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
Addy, everything you've been through is enough for someone to
go through. But this isn't even the beginning. How did
you get from Nicaragua all the way to eventually swimming
across the Rio Grande.
Speaker 3 (09:10):
I came to Mexico and I buy some papers and
I learned a national anthem of Mexico and history. I
lived there for a couple of months, and I flew
to Mexico City and there to New Laredo, and from
there I went to a bar where when I got in,
(09:32):
there as this coyot. Back then it was coyot. You say,
it was no cartels and stuff like that, passing people
and these coyote is to say, okay, you have sixteen
hundred dollars on you. No, But I can call. So
we arranged that here is going to pass me through
all the way to Laredo, Texas. So he wanted me
(09:53):
to swing with this the did they go inside the
tire like inner two right, So because he asking me,
can you swim? And this moment in time, I feel
like I'm the micro fellow the river. I didn't know
how big real ground there really was. You see, I'm
picturing a river that is just like my grandma.
Speaker 2 (10:15):
It's like a stream.
Speaker 3 (10:16):
Yeah, I mean it's something that you can pass in
two minutes. I never thought I'm gonna take me seventeen
minutes almost to pass the river across that I almost drowned.
And you know, so he told us to take the
close off, so we did, but we keep the underwear on.
When he turned back and like, what you're doing. This
isn't no gay shit, teed you underwere off because when
(10:39):
you run, you need to be dry. If you wet,
it's gonna it's gonna hurt you and it's gonna slow
you down. Believe me, I'm doing this for a long time.
So we did. Put it in a plastic bag, put
in my mouth, start swimming. We make it to the
other side. Somehow, God only he could help me to
pass through that river because it was strong, and we'd
(11:03):
write off. He say, every paper that you have, every
picture that you have, throw it away, every money that
you have, throw it away. You cannot bring anything with
you to the United States unless it's American dollars. I
didn't have any American dollars, so you know, it was
fifty pests of Mexico. So I threw it away, and
(11:23):
he said, when I tell you so, follow me and run.
When we make it to the other side, it was
like ninety five people in there, you know, females, men,
you own, people from Ecuador, Columbia, Costa Rica, you name it.
So we saw immigration car pass by, and then another
one and you may say, I ain't waiting here. We're
(11:44):
taken off. So I'm taking after him because he got
my money. So I'm thinking I cannot let him go
away with my money. You know, how am I going
to make it to the other side. And this moment
in time, I'm in the United States, but I haven't
made it to civilization yet. With the off running, I
wasn't thirty second and we hear helicopters, police cars, dogs
(12:06):
and sirens saying stop, stop, but we're going to shoot.
We hear some shots at this moment in time, everybody
has take off running two and I'm running right next
to this guy. So I'm running and I'm asking him
where to where to? He didn't tell me where to
because I think I can run him. I really believe
I can run him. I'm so desperate to pass back.
(12:29):
So it's some shots. I don't think they were shouting
at us. I think they were shouting to the airth
so people get scared or whatever. But that's all I
hear in my neighborhood. So they really didn't call me anymore.
It was I'm so used to or I was so
used to. We make it to the fence, and by
the time we're going to jump the fence, I used
to feel this hand in my hand and say, senor
(12:51):
please my son. It was this woman running next to
me with the child in her hand. So I grabbed
the kid, I give it to the next guy. I
push her up, and then I jumped. We went to
a house call my sister went to Houston. From Houston,
came to my sister house March eighteen, six fifteen in
the morning. Three months sixteen day after I was out
(13:13):
of my house.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
Three months and sixteen days starting in Nicarago.
Speaker 3 (13:17):
Right, started from Honduras January second, all the way to
March eighteen, two thousand and three.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
And you ended up in Florida in a little town.
Speaker 3 (13:25):
Right, yes, and altamund spring.
Speaker 2 (13:28):
So you end up in Florida. You got a job, right?
Speaker 3 (13:31):
Yes. My boy saw me courting lawn and shaving some
kind of palms, and he led the way I work,
so he offered me a job as a discwatcher dishes
for a couple of months. And one day the cooks
were really busy, so my mom teached me how to cooks.
And I was six seven years old and everybody was busy,
(13:53):
and they saw me cooking for me. So my boss
saw and say, oh, okay, so you can cut, you
can prep. I think you're going to be good in
the prep line. So they may may do salads, bread
and prep everything for the line.
Speaker 2 (14:17):
So now you're moving up in the world a little
bit at a time, right, going from the cutting trees
or whatever to the to the kitchen and now doing
the prep work and starting to use your skills that
you had developed as a cook. So things are looking
up right right? And where were you living?
Speaker 3 (14:34):
I moved from my sister and Altimo Sprinto Longwood in
the trailer park in forty four.
Speaker 2 (14:41):
And the trailer park is a very important role in
the story. This is where this shit really hits the fan. Maria,
do you want to sort of set the table here,
because you've worked on this case for ten years, you
know every single detail of what happened.
Speaker 4 (14:55):
Absolutely.
Speaker 5 (14:56):
I mean I don't even really know where to start at.
I mean I used to be a prosecutor actually before
I did criminal defense thirteen years ago. And so from
that perspective getting this case, the fact that they saw
him as the suspect shut their eyes to any possible
other alternative is to me the biggest travesty here. But
(15:17):
I'll sort of set the stage, I guess in the
sense of he was living next door to the victims.
Speaker 4 (15:21):
It was a.
Speaker 5 (15:22):
Trailer part on Vagabond Way, and that was the name
of the street, and he had socialized with them on
more than one occasion.
Speaker 2 (15:30):
And this was a woman, her mother and her daughter
living together in this trailer.
Speaker 5 (15:34):
That's correct, Yes, And Clemente lived with two other men
about his age. They were both cousins, and so they
were about the same age as the daughter and her
brother also lived in the trailer for periods of time,
so sort of all people of his age Clemente at
the time. Obviously you can hear him today speaking English.
He didn't speak any English back then. He taught himself
(15:55):
English in prison, which is a great story that he
does need to tell at some point point. How he
taught himself English. It's one of my favorite stories that
he tells. But he didn't speak any English then, but
you know, he was able to communicate enough with them.
They shared parties, they shared drinks, sort of a friendly
neighborhood scene. The day that he was arrested, the mother
(16:17):
and grandmother were killed, and the morning that their bodies
were discovered, Monday had gone there in the morning, as
he often did. He had been out with friends the
night before. They always were known to have lots and
lots of beer. If you look at the crime scene video,
I mean there was just thousands and thousands of cans.
And in Florida, alcohol is sold in all the grocery stores,
(16:38):
but not until certain hours. So the grocery store wasn't
open yet, and Clemente was a you know, in his
early twenties. We can all remember what it's like to
be able to party all night in your early twenties.
And he had finished a hard day's work and was
letting this with some friends and wanted to keep the
party going. So he had just gone over there for
a beer, as he had done many times. They had
an open door policy.
Speaker 2 (17:00):
Let's turn over to you a climate day, because this
is such a nightmare. I mean, I've told your story
so many times, but you actually lived it. So can
you take us back to that day.
Speaker 3 (17:09):
I've been drinking all day, I'm going to go home,
and I went home, but I want another beer, so
I went inside and I didn't find it. So it's
why I wait until daytime to go to the next
door and ask for a beer, like I had done
dozens of time before.
Speaker 2 (17:22):
What time was it when you went over to It.
Speaker 3 (17:24):
Was like six something in the morning.
Speaker 2 (17:25):
Six in the morning, right, And so you went over
there as you've done so many times, to scoop up
a few more beers whatever? Right, What did you encounter
when you got there?
Speaker 3 (17:35):
I turn knocked the door, but when I touch it,
push open, But it didn't open all the way. It's
strange because I've been in the house. I mean, if
I want to give you a number over seven hundred times, right,
So I know that door opened all the way and
this time didn't. So I push it and it it
(17:58):
didn't go further than was So I look, it was
like a little window, and I saw Cherry Williams there body.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
This was the mom.
Speaker 3 (18:11):
That was the mother, Yes, Samantha's mother, yes, and Carol daughter.
Speaker 2 (18:16):
So you saw the body like, so that's why they
couldn't open the door because the body was blocking.
Speaker 3 (18:20):
But it was blocking it, yes, sir.
Speaker 2 (18:22):
Right, and so now you see the body. But is
there blood everywhere? Or what's the first thing that you.
Speaker 3 (18:27):
Her body is there? I just jump immediately inside without
thinking right, and she was too close to by the door,
so I had to close the door and touch her
dress looking for a pose. So I said, maybe I'm
too drunk that I don't feel it. So I picked
her up and put it on the top of my
legs into her neck because in the position she was,
(18:49):
I couldn't touch her neck. And a moment and asked
her to wake up, and she didn't.
Speaker 2 (18:57):
At this point, did you see there was blood and
there was.
Speaker 3 (18:59):
Yes everywhere, and now it was like a horror movie scene.
So I'm asking somebody here, and I find the grandmother
of her wheelchair almost under the table, so I want
to touch her too. She was dead, and I heard
this noise and I'm asking somebody here. And with that,
(19:24):
I walked in the house and my footprints were there,
and it was it was crazy.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
You found the murder weapon.
Speaker 3 (19:30):
Right, I did? I did. I saw it when I
saw the first victim. It was on the top of
a beer box, but I didn't touch it. Then I
touched until I heard the noise. Later I found out
it was a dog there. But I know, I'm crazy.
I heard the noise. So anyway, I went and grabbed
a knife like like a domas and uh, asking somebody here,
(19:57):
And I walked and I went to someon a bedroom
and everything was everywhere in the house. Chair will flowed down,
clothes was everywhere. Everything was like a like a Hura
camp passed by there and then I walked to the
next room, but I think went in there because I
(20:18):
found Cherry already. So I said, oh my god, what
am I going to do? So I took off running.
They got running again, This.
Speaker 2 (20:40):
Is a really bad scenario on every level. I mean,
you've got now the murder victim's blood on you, right,
because you've been trying to help them, trying to check
and see if they're alive. Obviously that was hopeless because
they were dead. You've got your fingerprints on the knife
right because you picked up the pick up. Yet, I mean,
(21:00):
it couldn't be any worse. You can't make it harder
for your lawyers, right in this case. I mean, this
is circumstantial levelis it doesn't get much worse than that.
And I'm sure when it eventually came to your arrest,
they must have looked at it like, okay, well, so
you don't really have to work too hard on this one.
We got this guy dead to rights, Well what did
you do? So? Now you ran? Where did you run too?
Speaker 3 (21:21):
I ran to my house. I'm debating. Am I going
to call the policeman? And the person I'm debating is
I know the police officer arrest you, they call immigration
on you. It's a fact, So they did. I mean,
(21:45):
and now I'm going to be deported for it, So
I know I didn't do nothing wrong, even though everything
sounds wrong so far. I didn't kill nobody anyway. So
I took a shower and I'm like, I can't copolice.
I decided against it because I don't want to be deported.
It was my fear. It was my fear, and legitn't
(22:08):
of fear because I'm running from my life. You know,
I'm running for my life. I don't want to be
killed in my country because I don't want to be
a criminal.
Speaker 2 (22:21):
Right, What an irony? Right? You were running away from
the criminals to come here to start a better life,
and now now you're going to be accused of a
crime that you didn't commit in the first place. And
the options are all bad. Right, You're either going to
go and get deported or you're going to get convicted.
I mean you must have known as well that things
were looking pretty bad. If you call the police, the
(22:41):
first person they're going to suspect. We know that in general,
in many cases anyway, the person who finds the body
is the person they usually.
Speaker 3 (22:49):
But honestly speaking, I wasn't afraid they are going to
be accused of the murder. I really wasn't, because I
know I didn't do it. I was more afraid than if.
Speaker 2 (23:02):
So what happened for you, sure.
Speaker 4 (23:04):
So, I mean he can tell it as well.
Speaker 5 (23:06):
But the police eventually came because Samantha's boyfriend, which we'll
later get to in more detail, actually was told by
Samantha to come to the house that morning to get
her laundry out of the dryer was the purported reason,
or out of the washer, and to check on her
mom and grandmother because she had a bad feeling. So
he comes to the scene about nine am. He finds
(23:27):
about easy of course, calls nine one one, and then
the police come. So by a couple of hours go by,
the police are there and you know, normally they're knocking
the canvassing the neighborhood. So they knock on the door
of Clemente's trailer, and first knock on the door, you know,
they didn't. They just said we don't.
Speaker 3 (23:43):
Know anything, We don't know anything.
Speaker 5 (23:45):
And the police that knocked on his door, nobody spoke Spanish,
so they were all English speaking, and everybody in Clemente's
house then only spoke Spanish, so there's also a language barrier.
And then later in the day, I mean, Clemente can
tell you why he felt compelled to come forward and
then sort of have that back out on him. When
he came forward and tried to tell what happened as
you said, they immediately were like, great, we've got our guy,
(24:07):
and they just started accusing him of murder pretty immediately
and threatening him. There was a female Spanish speaking detective
finally who came unseen, and Colemente wanted to talk to her.
He felt like he could trust her with the full story.
Speaker 3 (24:22):
I came forward. I say, this is the best country
in the world. I'm telling the truth. But they're going
to investigate and they're going to find out the truth eventually.
So I went and I say I found in it,
you know. And soon I say that I need to
speak with somebody who Spanish, and it was two people
behind her telling her get him getting When I asked
(24:45):
her to talk alone, the investigator told me if you
touch her, I'm fuck you up. I don't know what
that world mean, but the face that he put in
my face told me everything I need to know. And
I'm looking crazy and I say, no, no, I'm not
going to do anything.
Speaker 5 (25:06):
It also probably should be noted Clemente got his shorty
nickname because he's four foot eleven, so not exactly you're threatening,
imposing criminal, but.
Speaker 2 (25:16):
Also you have such a sort of a sweet gentle face.
I mean like if I was three feet eleven, I
wouldn't be scared of you, you know what I mean?
Speaker 3 (25:22):
Like right, So they bring me disinvestigator, and soon I
tell him about the first victim. He started kissing me
or rape. I know I didn't break nobody. I know
I didn't kill nobody. So I told him, well, he
mentioned something like, I don't need you to finish or
have an orgasm in her. I just need you to
(25:43):
penetrate her. And I got your DNA. I said, go
for it. They my DNA because I know I'm mean acent.
But there was a swap there. They took your fingernails,
then my pingernails, and and she went to dig. I
believe now nobody can take me out of these. She
was trying to cut me.
Speaker 5 (26:03):
When they took his fingertiped swabs they do the scrapings,
they like, jammed it under his nail.
Speaker 3 (26:08):
She went way too deep. So you can see it's
like you have to describe a little bit. You don't
have to go to deep. They always dishort always because
I work in the kitchen, so you know, I'm always
with sure nails and sure hair.
Speaker 2 (26:20):
Do you think they were trying to cut him?
Speaker 5 (26:22):
Because I think the perception that he tells the story
was there was a lot of hatred and animosity from
the police from the beginning towards him because he was
not in this country legally, because they believed that he
murdered these two women, one of them in a wheelchair,
and so they just treated him.
Speaker 4 (26:39):
You know, this whole theme of the.
Speaker 5 (26:40):
Conference that we're attending is presumption of innocence, and there
was none of that for Clemente.
Speaker 2 (26:45):
Right, And just for context, we're recording in a conference
room in Atlanta where the Innocent Network conference is being held.
So there's an amazing, amazing group here of over two
hundred exgneries and hundreds of lawyers and social workers and activists,
and it's an amazing, amazing place to be. And as
(27:05):
you said, the theme is presumption of innocence, which is well,
it's part of American jurisprudence. It's in the constitution, right,
but it doesn't actually work the way it's supposed to,
and certainly didn't in this case. So they interrogate you. You
didn't have a lawyer with you at the time.
Speaker 3 (27:21):
At that moment in time, I say, and your lawyer right,
do nothing.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
Yeah, and that's a common thing. I mean to be surprised.
How many people, even people who grew up in America
who maybe have higher education degrees or whatever, they think
the same thing. Well, if I just go in and
tell the truth. But when you get an adversarial situation
like you were in, it changes very quickly and people
are not expecting it. You had no reason to expect it.
But that's exactly what happened. And so at what point
(27:47):
did you become aware that you are now looking at
the potential of being well arrested, tried, and convicted. I
will even sentence to death.
Speaker 3 (27:57):
A wig later, they come and take my fingerprints and
they told me they found my left pump print in
the knife, which I say, it is impossible, and say,
how come you touched the knife? Yeah, but I'm right handed.
I'm not going to grab a knife with my left hand.
So they charmed me with murder and they told me
(28:20):
we're going to be asking for the death penalty. As
the state asked for the dead penalty. Send you to
death row.
Speaker 2 (28:27):
You've now been arrested you're locked up in the local jail.
Speaker 3 (28:30):
I assume, yeah, Seminal County.
Speaker 2 (28:32):
How long did it take from that point to go
to trial?
Speaker 3 (28:35):
Twenty two months?
Speaker 2 (28:36):
So you're in jail for twenty two months, Yes.
Speaker 3 (28:38):
Sir, Seminal County jail and sam for got to be
one of the most disgusting places to be at. The
food is terrible because it's private, you see, Seminal County
is private, so they run it the way they want to.
They beat you up, They put you in a place
where it's the camera. They beat you up in anything and.
Speaker 2 (28:59):
All that happened to you what happened to me? Because
you were the most notorious guy in the jail at
this time, right, your name is in the paper. You're
accused of a double murder or an illegal immigrant. You've
got the whole, you.
Speaker 3 (29:13):
Know, because of this brown little guy who apparently killed
two white people. By the time I got taken the trial,
I was found guilty in one hour fifteen minutes maybe
the jury the jury user.
Speaker 2 (29:31):
The jury was out for an hour and fifteen minutes.
Speaker 3 (29:33):
The trial last maybe four or five days, I mean
the criminal trial. The sentence in like another four days
aroun there.
Speaker 5 (29:42):
In Florida, the penalty phase in the guilt phase or separate.
Speaker 3 (29:45):
Yeah, it's two different trial basically.
Speaker 2 (29:47):
So who represented you a trial?
Speaker 3 (29:49):
The public Defender's officer Seminal County.
Speaker 2 (29:53):
And did they mount any kind of a defense?
Speaker 3 (29:58):
No, whats whoever?
Speaker 2 (29:59):
No defense?
Speaker 3 (30:00):
They did present a case on my he did it
because he drunk. He did it because he did he didn't.
You know, I didn't do nothing. You're trying to kill
me for something I didn't do. I didn't do nothing.
I am not going to take this to me. It
was no conceivable that I am going to accept you
calling me a killer. And I'm there and I'm not
(30:21):
going to stand up and call you a liar, even
you my attorney. I don't care. I didn't do nothing,
So you don't believe me after you he never believed me.
Speaker 2 (30:31):
Man.
Speaker 3 (30:32):
He didn't talk to nobody. I wasn't about until three
third in the morning with like thirty two people. He
didn't talk to no one of them.
Speaker 6 (30:38):
What you were wiping, I wasn't a bar before we
went to my friend's house, the three todd in the morning,
because back then they were saying I did a crying
three something in the morning.
Speaker 3 (30:50):
You see, then they changed it to early in the morning.
Speaker 5 (30:53):
They never really were able to pin down the time
of death because they were relying on Samantha and Mark
Benzan who said they saw the last alive at about
eleven thirty.
Speaker 4 (31:02):
And then they were found by Mark VanZant at nine.
Speaker 5 (31:05):
So the state was never able to really pin down
the time of death, so they just fit it to
the time when Clemente had said he went in there,
but he did have a solid alibi until three thirty
in the morning. He was at a local bar. It
was actually me who went into that bar for the
first time in probably two thousand and ten or so.
(31:26):
I mean, it's just inmfathomable to me that as a
criminal defense attorney, your client tells you where they were,
you know, in the preceding twenty four hours, and you
don't even walk into the bar to see, like, hey,
was he here? Is there anybody that we can talk to?
And I mean when I went in in twenty ten,
so this is mindjew six years after the murder, it
was a Saturday morning. I went in with my investigator
(31:47):
and kind of like sat down at the bars, maybe
eleven thirty.
Speaker 4 (31:50):
We didn't tell anyone we were coming.
Speaker 5 (31:51):
We just went and the bartenders like, you know, can
I help you? And we said, you know, we're looking
for Bob Buntruck, who was the owner. She said, oh,
he's not here, you know, can I help you? I said, well,
I represent Clemente Gary And it was like time stood still.
I thought she was going to drop the glass she
was holding. She was like, thank God, somebody is finally
helping him. I know he didn't do it. And to
(32:13):
walk into a place six years later and get that
kind of reaction for me as the lawyer handling his
case was just stunning. And she gave us a treasure
troes of information that actually led us to who ultimately
is the actual piller in this case.
Speaker 2 (32:28):
So yeah, and that's I'm getting the chill just thinking
about that. What a moment. It's very cinematic the way
you described it, But yeah, I mean it must have
really weighed on the people who knew you and knew
that you didn't do it. To be walking around with
that knowledge and yet knowing that you're on death row.
Speaker 4 (32:43):
And felt helpless.
Speaker 5 (32:44):
You know, there was no avenue for them because there
was no investigation by either the prosecution or the defense.
I mean, it was just a complete collapse of the
adversarial system.
Speaker 3 (32:52):
This particular lady who talked to her name is Jamie,
and she was the street almost in front of Samantha's
house until fight something in the morning, and I haven't
make it home yet.
Speaker 5 (33:06):
Yeah, so she actually ended up alibying him until you know,
five point thirty or and sort of aliby in the
house until then.
Speaker 3 (33:13):
Because I haven't made home yet. She was from Peter.
There's some peace, so Peter used to leave him from
a Samantha Williams house, so she stayed there with him,
having a couple of dreams that night. And I'm still
on my friend's house with all the two friends. I
haven't make it home yet.
Speaker 5 (33:28):
But the state just fit their time of death with
the time he said he went in the house. Once
he said he went in the house, they just had
tunnel vision and that was it. They just fit all
their evidence to comply with that.
Speaker 2 (33:40):
Wow. And we're going to get into Samantha in a minute,
because this is one of those cases, and there's probably
a dozen, maybe that we profiled on the show, where
all the signs were there that would have led even
a cursory investigation to focus on someone else, but it
was not necessary because they already had somebody that they wanted.
(34:02):
They had somebody who was an easy target, and also
somebody that apparently they didn't like, because they didn't like
the fact that you were here illegally or whatever their
personal biases were, you know. And it's worth noting too
that in a case like this, because it's such a
terrible violent crime, the idea that they would allow the
(34:22):
perpetrator to remain free just so they can close the
case and you put your life, you know, which they
viewed as expendable, apparently, it's really another very serious thing
to look at, right, I mean, the people in that
community were in danger. They still are, right, And let's
talk about that. Because Samantha, the daughter whose mother and
(34:43):
grandmother were killed, she had been in and out of
mental institutions dozens of times, right.
Speaker 5 (34:50):
In the upwards of like sixty I think she said
at the post conviction hearing she was Baker acted, which
is Florida's involuntary mental health commitment sixty times.
Speaker 2 (34:59):
Six is zero, that is, folks, right, So I mean
that's a full on revolving door in and out of
mental institution. And the fact is that, as I understand it,
she actually vocalized her plan when she was in the
mental institution. She said that she was going to do
this right in front of other people. Yeah, there was
a she announced.
Speaker 5 (35:18):
It a couple of years before the murders on one
of her Baker acts. She had to be restrained because
she was so violent in the hospital, kicking, spitting, throwing things,
And she said, with her mother right next to her,
I'll kill you. I'll kill all of you when I
get out.
Speaker 2 (35:31):
I'll kill you. I'll kill all of you when I
get out. And I guess she should have taken her
a little more seriously, and then we wouldn't be sitting
and having this conversation at all. And in fact, we
know now too that her biological evidence was found all
over the clime scene right, not just because she lived
there part time, but because she had actually done these
(35:54):
gruesome deeds and then left her own blood for.
Speaker 5 (35:59):
Some eight separate blod stands within inches of the victim's
blood throughout the trailer.
Speaker 4 (36:04):
None of Clement's DNA.
Speaker 3 (36:06):
So I always thought I stand up in court before
my trial and asked for the DNA to be testing.
They just told me, I need to be a specific.
I don't know what is specific me. I thought, it's
a crime scene. You're gonna investigate, You're gonna test everything,
because this is when I interact with the Innery Project.
(36:26):
And they asked me, what do you want us to tell?
I say everything, everything, her nails, the cheats, everything. So
it was one hundred and ninety seven pieces of evidence
with blood which nobody tells ever so pictured yourself accused
(36:46):
of a crime, which have so many pieces the evidence
to be testing for DNA neither to stay or you
attorney tested, and you asked the George vocally, please made
my attorney tested, and he said, you need to be specific.
Why would I be specific? Test everything? Right? I want
(37:07):
to prove that I didn't do it. Maybe the killer
left something behind. It was always always my argument, you
are not going to find my blood there because I
didn't do it. If you test them, maybe you find
something else. Right. The accusume or rape, the accuracyme of killing,
the acacimea, all of these things. I'm for eleven. If
(37:28):
I stab somebody one hundred and twenty nine times, I
ain't going to have this splatter blood all over. No
one drop or splatter blooding me. Everything is contact. Like
I say, it was my footprint on a round chair
that are fall down. A mirror was done and it's
(37:49):
not a footprint under it, it's on top of it.
They found her d NA that mirror, she saying trout
that mirror was on the wall when she left. But
they found her blo ain't her fingerprint? No mind, so
they didn't. There's nothing. So here I go to death
(38:22):
row no English beat up. They batting me up all
the time because I don't speak English, and that row
ye no no. The emails the guards because they thought
I was acting, so they thought it by beating me up,
(38:42):
I will speak English. So I started taking newspapers from
guard which to start reading. I don't know what I
was reading. And then I asked for a Bible because
I got a Bible in Spanish, you see. So I say,
maybe with a Bible in English I can translate, it's
going to be more easier for me. And they sent
me a Penhouse letter Book, number four, four hundred and
(39:06):
seventeen pages, Penhouse letter Book. It's a foot book, you see.
I didn't know. I didn't know what it was.
Speaker 7 (39:15):
The other inmates so we asked for a Bible because
you want to learn English, and the other inmates, I
guess thought it would be funny or I'm not really sure,
but that's how that's what.
Speaker 3 (39:26):
They give him Penhouse Letter Book number four. So that's
what I got. That's what I started reading. So I
stay at night when it was quiet and there was
no light. That's why my eyes I all missed up.
Now and I gave the light from the hallway, and
I got a bat up dictionary in Spanish and English,
and I will go there and I will go with
(39:48):
the letters. I read it seventeen times, the book, the
fuck book.
Speaker 4 (39:54):
Yes, so I taught himself English.
Speaker 2 (39:57):
That's amazing.
Speaker 3 (39:58):
But that seventeen time, I'm start getting a roused. And
I got so happy. Not because I got a roused,
you know. I got so happy because I got roused
because I wasn't understanding what I was reading. But now
I want to prove to my mother that I didn't
do this. And I started writing letters. One hundred and
(40:20):
seventy five letters I wrote. I roll oprah. I said,
I don't know who you are, but they telling me
you they could not television. Maybe you know somebody who
can teach this evidence. They turney came me for something
I didn't do, and next to it, I would put
a letter in Spanish too, so it was somebody who
speaks Spanish in my English that bad. They can translate it.
(40:44):
One answer me bad. Innocent Projic of New York in
Amerson from the Innocent Projects. And I got to meet Maria.
Remember I just have a polic defender. I didn't never
have a private attorney. I don't know what it's like.
And she told me she would never lie to me,
and that she will work hard, and that she thought
(41:05):
it was something wrong in my case. They got some
people were working and they would push for DNA. They
allow us to test eighty two pieces of evidence.
Speaker 5 (41:14):
First, the first time there was two drops of Samantha's blood,
and then we asked for the rest. Of course, the
state agreed to blood the first time, and then once
Samantha's blood came back and they had evidence of her
confessions which they withheld from us for anywhere from around
two years or maybe longer, hard to say, they objected
to any more testing. After two drops of her blood
(41:35):
come back. She's admitted that she's killed her family. They
object to more DNA testing, but it was granted, thankfully.
Speaker 2 (41:43):
And she confessed on a number of occasions to a
number of different people.
Speaker 5 (41:46):
Yeah, I think it's somewhere around seven or nine. But
this first one was a Baker act, one of her
many Baker acts, where she had tried to burn the
trailer down and sort of set herself on fire. She
was like, set some bedding on fire, and she told
a neighbor who told the police that demons in her
head had made her kill her family.
Speaker 3 (42:04):
She told her best friend Nikki, and two separate occasions
did she her mother When Nikki asked her, what did
you do? I heard them doing any stubbing motion to
her chest. Had grab my guy's tab in the chest.
According to the medical coach Saminar So, I never see
(42:28):
this woman named Nikki in my life. I don't know her.
She came forward to stay attorney and they send her back.
Speaker 2 (42:36):
So they didn't want to hear it.
Speaker 3 (42:37):
Oh, they don't want to hear it. They say they
got the killer. But she contacted my defense attorneys and
told them too. She testified it first conviction.
Speaker 2 (42:47):
Here. Kurus to her for not giving up right because
it would have been pretty easy for her to go
to the police and say I want to talk and
they say no, and then she goes, well, I try
my best. What am I going to do? Right? But
she actually took it to the next level type of view.
Speaker 3 (43:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (43:01):
And we had been piecing it together who she was
based on the.
Speaker 5 (43:03):
Police report because we could tell that's who the person
was in the statement that Samantha had made.
Speaker 4 (43:09):
The statement to.
Speaker 2 (43:10):
So now they start trying to backpedal, right now, all
of a sudden, they're like, wait a minute, We're going
to stop cooperating and stop giving you access. Yes, And
that's when the dream team really kicks into gear, right.
I mean you had not just you and Nina, but
Josh Dubin. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (43:24):
So that was at the retrial.
Speaker 5 (43:25):
So the post conviction hearing was done just by myself
and Marie Palmer, who's my law partner now in our
investigator Polly, and then Nina came down for the first
two days of the evidentiary hearing in twenty thirteen. That
was a two week hearing that we put on tons
and tons of witnesses, all the DNA, all of the confessions,
and then we lost, of course at the circuit court
level and.
Speaker 4 (43:46):
We knew that.
Speaker 5 (43:48):
We always had the idea of getting a bigger team
on this case. You know, it's one thing when lawyers
from my office at the time, you know, stand up
before the flour Spring Court and say this is a travesty.
It's quite another when we get the Innocence Project and
private law firms and you know, people really fighting for this.
Speaker 4 (44:04):
It makes a difference.
Speaker 5 (44:05):
So that was always our plan, and Nina was of
course amazing and instrumental in getting us help. So we
got lawyers from Alabama to do the appeal with us.
Speaker 4 (44:14):
They did the appeal at the flour Spring Court.
Speaker 5 (44:16):
We all worked on it and we got the reversal
in twenty sixteen, and that's when sort of the trial
team really came back together. And so my role sort
of formally ended in twenty sixteen, and then I just
consulted with the trial team and talked to Clemente every
Sunday for two and a half years while he was
waiting his retrial.
Speaker 3 (44:35):
Well, let me tell you something. We have a DNA
a confession for the perpetrator who DNA was found in
the crime seat, which she said she wasn't there. Red
Fresh Red Bright and then we have a judge. We
have a judge who keep denying. Now, we don't understand
what these judge followed the law. Right later we find
(44:57):
out that she's got detagenda against me, using my case
to get a promotion. She had stayed a sixty seventh
page drueling against me and brag about it.
Speaker 2 (45:06):
So she was trying to get elevated.
Speaker 3 (45:08):
Yeah, and used his case, used my case about it.
Speaker 4 (45:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (45:12):
She eventually was recused and did not preside over the retrial.
That's when Josh came on, Josh Stephens. He did the
jury selection and in front of her first time in
February of twenty eighteen, and her complete lack of knowledge
of the law. I mean, Josh just pointed it out
and we were able to recuse her from the case.
(45:33):
And then the trial started in October of twenty eighteen
with quite a team Josh picking the jury, Maury Parmer,
who's my law partner, Lindsay Bonie, Dylan Blackbrooks, Proctor, I mean,
just Jeff Horowitz. There was like, at one point Clemente said,
what did you tell them?
Speaker 3 (45:50):
Oh man? It was it was too many or them right,
And I'm like heyo, y'all making me look bad right here.
Some of you need to go see down the bag,
you know, I.
Speaker 4 (45:58):
Said some of them on the prosecution to make sure.
Speaker 3 (46:00):
That it was too many to me, I don't want
to look like, why this guy got so many Lowyoh
he got money. He might have done it, so I
don't want them to think like that. Ever.
Speaker 2 (46:11):
Wow, you went from having too little help to us.
Well you were thinking too much help. But it was
not the case. And Josh is an amazing guy. I mean,
it's funny because Nina originally introduced us I don't know
whatever a couple three years ago, and he says to me,
you know, I'm a church selection expert. I go, yeah,
he goes, I can look in your eyes and see
your soul. I was like, so, you know, he's a guy.
(46:36):
Here's that guy. He's amazing. Yeah. And he was keeping
me posted. Then when he was down there at Florida, Argua,
we were talking and he was giving me the updates
and he was really Yeah. It was a very intense time,
even for me watching from the sidelines from a thousand
miles away. So let's get to the good stuff.
Speaker 3 (46:53):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (46:54):
So then finally your conviction is overturned.
Speaker 3 (46:58):
On now October twenty seven.
Speaker 2 (47:01):
But they kept you on death row anyway.
Speaker 3 (47:02):
Until and then back to the county, back to the
county jail.
Speaker 2 (47:06):
Right. And it's amazing because you know, I talked to
give speeches a lot, and I talked to civilians all
the time about this work and about cases like yours,
and almost everyone says, but I understand, the convictions overturn,
you go home.
Speaker 3 (47:20):
That's not the way it works.
Speaker 2 (47:22):
I mean, sometimes it is, but in your case it
certainly was not. And the conviction was overturned. They're going
to retry you because they didn't like losing.
Speaker 3 (47:28):
Right. Oh, immediately they say same day, yeah, same day,
they say, we are going to retry the case.
Speaker 5 (47:35):
I mean, this was a unanimous reversal from the floor
Spreme Court in which the opinion said, no longer is
a Gary, the creepy, shadowy figure who lived next door.
He's escapegoat for her crimes. That's seven justices of the
Flora Supreme Court calling Samantha the murderer and they're still
trying him again.
Speaker 2 (47:54):
Okay, okay, yeah, I mean this is seven justices in
the Deep South. Yeah, with a guy who doesn't have
the same skin color as they do. I mean they're
saying and in the strongest possible way, that this is
not your crime, that this is a huge mistake. You
heard those words. How did that feel?
Speaker 5 (48:11):
So the prison doesn't allow They require twenty four hour
notice for calls, so we couldn't even tell him until
the next day. So opinions come out every Thursday. At
eleven opinion came out. We knew we couldn't get a
call to him, but we also knew it was going
to be on the news, and so I know, I
didn't interview. I think Lindsay did too, And I was like, well, Monday.
Speaker 7 (48:28):
If you're listening, congratulations, because we were going to get
to talk to him until the next day.
Speaker 4 (48:32):
But guys on the road heard it.
Speaker 3 (48:34):
They told me, yeah, hey, Tody, they're banging on the
bars and what I think you want to trial? I said,
hold on, man, don't play like that because it's too
it's too soon. It was six months, twenty days, so
they take twenty two months in answering and don't play
like that. Man. You know that's not funny. I'm serious, man.
They say a funny name like your like by name,
(48:56):
like the one you have. So hey, listen up my
name to say somebody say, Jody want a new trial.
Everybody go to the news and trying to find it.
And I got a frame named Alex Alex Pagan who say, yeah,
it's the Ogani pace in seven point four and we
went there and they were saying, I got a I won't.
Speaker 2 (49:18):
We have limited time left. But in the time that
we do have, I want to get to the ultimate victory. Right.
So they immediately announce they're going to retry you. They're
not done fucking with you yet. I can't think of
a better way to say that. But now you've got
the dream team, like we said, and you go for
the new trial, and you want to take this one.
Speaker 5 (49:39):
Sure, we start in November. We had sort of a
fall start in February. We ended up getting rid of
the judge who was clearly biased against him. We started
start in October with the new chief judge, incredibly fair,
promised both sides of fair trial, and totally delivered.
Speaker 4 (49:53):
Jury selection is ongoing.
Speaker 5 (49:55):
Josh is picking the jury to critical in court depositions
heard that really sort of crumbled.
Speaker 4 (50:02):
The States case.
Speaker 5 (50:03):
One was the ex wife of Mark Van Zant, who
discovered the bodies. Two of our lawyers, Mary Palmer and
Dylan Black, went to meet with her. She gave a
remarkable story in an Affidavid that Mark had always told
her that Samantha went out the window that night, the
night of the murders. He had always alibied her, always
said that she was with him all night. Turns out
he was a liar. We had listened to about twelve
(50:26):
hundred of his jail calls over the summer in which
he admitted that he was a liar. Mary Palmer did
an in court deposition of Mark that was just masterful.
It was like the climactic scene of a movie where
he basically just admitted that he was a pathological liar
and his credibility was done. And the second one was
Josh did a deposition of Samantha in court where she
(50:46):
effectively said, I do a lot of things when I'm drunk.
I guess it's possible I did this too, and.
Speaker 4 (50:52):
I don't remember.
Speaker 5 (50:53):
So between the actual murderer admitting hunder oath that she
maybe committed this crime and her alibi witness admitting that
he was a pathological liar and that she had gone
out the window that night their case was done.
Speaker 2 (51:11):
Were you in the courtroom when you were finally found
to be yes, I was.
Speaker 3 (51:17):
I was numb. Ah, I pray. I always think God
all win. And to me it was like had about experience.
You know, I lois looking at myself and I'm always
going to remember these I looking at me saying it over.
Speaker 4 (51:35):
Finally jury came in no, so the state actually announced.
Speaker 2 (51:40):
No prosper nol pross, which is short for a Latin
term that translates to quote, we shall no longer prosecute.
Speaker 5 (51:49):
They announced nor pross. We didn't know what they were
going to do. They had asked for extra time to
think about it. Turns out they were getting an immigration
hold put on him because they had never bothered to
do that in the fourteen years that he was locked up,
so that you know, he couldn't actually walk free from
the courtroom, which we were able to rectify later getting
him an immigration bond. So they had to put the
icehold on it. But we still didn't know what they
were going to do. We didn't know if they were
(52:09):
going to continue to go forward. And they came in
the courtroom was full.
Speaker 4 (52:14):
We were all sitting there.
Speaker 5 (52:15):
Nina flew down or like you got to come. We
think they're going to drop it. I mean they had
no way forward. Really, the state stood up and announced
a nol pross and I know I crumbled into a ball,
I think, almost on the floor. I couldn't believe it.
And the judge was so kind and kind of gave
everybody a minute. I went up and hugged Clemente and
we were all hugging, and then he wanted to speak.
Speaker 2 (52:38):
And you remember what you said? Yeah, what'd you say?
Speaker 3 (52:41):
I say, God send you angles so you feed, don't
hear from us, and you angered. You have called upon me.
And if I hear you, I will free you and
I will glorify you. I will give you many years
of life and I will show you my salvation. And
(53:03):
it sounds ninety one, fourteen, fifteen and sixteen. I think
everybody will help me out. The ones who send me money.
They want to make me look like a human being.
And I say, you don't have an enemy in me
from this humble legal immigrant. If I can forgive somebody,
I forget whoever, don't drunk me because I want to
(53:26):
live a better life.
Speaker 2 (53:30):
Wow, So I have one more question and then we're
going to wrap up. I think I already know the
answer to this question, but I'm going to ask anyway,
are you better about what happened to you?
Speaker 3 (53:42):
Angry? Better? Angry? Is what you ask?
Speaker 2 (53:45):
Better? Yeah? Better angry? Ye, it's sort of a similar thing.
Speaker 3 (53:48):
Yeah, somehow I think it's an injustice. This is I
know it's an injustice. Yeah, I can say I angry,
but I'm not hateful. You know. A long time ago,
I let that go because what's killing me. So the
(54:09):
way I see it now is I just try to adjust, man,
and I get aggravated for things, maybe because I got
stoked so many years ago. But I know I'm gonna
get better. It will, it has to be.
Speaker 2 (54:23):
I have to lead it, and it is. And it's
great to see you here. I almost when you were
talking about breaking down the corner when I was broke
down myself at to get a little lump in my throat.
So the tradition here at Wrongful Conviction is that at
the end of each episode, first thing I do is
thank you both for coming and being here. Thank you
(54:46):
having Aria and of course Shorty. And then my favorite
part of the show is this, because this is the
part of the show where I get to stop talking
and just listen. And so I would like to now
turn it over to you for any final thoughts that
you have. Again, thanks for being here and for everything
(55:06):
that you're doing, and I wish you, you know, all
the happiness in the world. And so Maria, why don't
you go first, and then Shorty you can close.
Speaker 5 (55:15):
Sure, thank you so much for having us and for
drawing attention to this case, and you know, obviously very
important cause overall, I mean, I think just for the listeners,
you know, like you said, if they end up on
jurys like really listen, hold the state to their burden.
But also when the exoneration happens and all the happiness happens.
(55:37):
You know, Clemente has a life to live and he's
trying to piece his life back together, and it's especially
hard for him because he's not allowed to work right
now because his immigration case is ongoing. You know, he's
fortunate for the benefits and the donations of others, and
that's something that we continue to rely on. So I
know that Innocence Project is going to do some fundraisers
for him. He does some speaking and people give him
(56:00):
donations for that. Unfortunately, he and I get to spend
He lives three miles from my house now in a
community for ex Houneries, so we see each other every
week for laundry and groceries. But you know, any kind
of donations that listeners are willing to do, we'll have
that set up pretty quickly. Just really supporting xuoneries. It's
great to do events like this conference that we're at,
(56:21):
but making sure that you know, after the dust settles
and their home, we continue to support them.
Speaker 3 (56:29):
Yeah, thank you for having me. Just taking back from there,
Yu get out is not enough there for you know,
after so many years incarcerated and almost everybody turned back
when you family members, loves friends going away. We need medical,
(56:50):
we need dental, you know, the mental health. But I
always remember the three sides of the story, hers and
the truth. They don't test evidence. I mean, they don't
want to find out the truth. And that's simple. If
it defended is so adamant to test the evidence. And
(57:12):
you an attorney at there, and you client asking you
to please test the evidence, maybe you should listen to him.
He might be telling you the truth. So thank you
for listening, and God bless you all.
Speaker 2 (57:31):
Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. You can listen
to this and all the Lava for Good podcasts one
week early and ed free by subscribing to Lava for
Good Plus on Apple Podcasts. I want to thank our
production team Connor Hall and Kathleen Fink, as well as
my fellow executive producers Jeff Kempler, Kevin Watis, and Jeff Clibern.
The music in this production was supplied by three time
(57:51):
OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us
across all social media platforms at Lava for Good and
at Wrongful Conviction. You can also follow me on Instagram
at It's Jason flamm Ralfel Conviction is a production of
Lava for Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company Number One.
Speaker 3 (58:07):
We have worked hard to ensure that all facts reported
in this show are accurate.
Speaker 5 (58:11):
The views and opinions expressed by the individuals featured in
this show are their own and do not necessarily reflect
those of Lava for Good
Hosts And Creators
Lauren Bright Pacheco
Maggie Freleng
Jason Flom
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