June 19, 2025 • 36 mins
On the morning of August 20, 2012, police and firefighters were called to a house fire in Detroit, MI. Bobby Cross and Darryl Simms died in the fire. Bobby’s long-term partner’s son, Duane Williams, was staying over the house that week, but he was not harmed in the fire. Rather, he was accused and ultimately charged with arson and felony murder. After some faulty expert testimony, an incentivized jailhouse witness and numerous Brady violations, Duane was convicted and sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
On the morning of August twenty, twenty twelve, a Detroit
house fire killed two men, Bobby Cross and Daryl Simms.
Citing an argument from the night prior, the Cross family
wondered whether Bobby Cross's girlfriend's son, Dwayne Williams, had set
the blaze. However, with no evidence of arson, these deaths
(00:25):
were ruled accidental until three months later, when someone tied
to the family was looking for a way out of
a jam. They claimed that Dwayne confessed to this arson,
sending him away for life. This is Wrongful Conviction.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
You're listening to Wrongful Conviction. You can listen to this
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on Apple Podcasts.
Speaker 1 (01:06):
Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction. I'm Ben Bullen, the host
of Stuff they Don't Want You To Know, and your
host here on Wrongful Conviction for the next few episodes.
This story takes us to Detroit, Michigan, where we've previously
covered stories involving an elaborate jailhouse snitch system. We'll link
some of those in the episode description, but this one
(01:28):
is a little different from those scenarios. And the state's
alleged witness in this case was able to flip two
accidental deaths into a double homicide charge. For our guest today,
Dwayne Williams. Dwayne, thanks for joining us, Man, thank you
for having me. We also want to welcome the co
director of the Cooley Innocence Project and Garrett thanks for
(01:49):
being here absolutely, as well as Maya Menlo from the
Michigan Appellate Defender's Office.
Speaker 3 (01:55):
Thanks.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
What I think we should start off with first is
to have you tell us a little bit about your
childhood before the series of tragic events.
Speaker 4 (02:05):
I'm from a neighborhood in the trait called Brightmore. It's
on the west side of the trait. If you ask
them about it, it has a reputation for like selling
drugs and like the neighborhood being abandoned. I would say
it's considered possibly one of the worst neighborhoods on the
west Side.
Speaker 3 (02:21):
That's the neighborhood I grew up in.
Speaker 4 (02:24):
I hate that I had to grow up someone like that,
but it helped to make me the person who I
was now. In my childhood, I lived with my mother
till I was about seven.
Speaker 3 (02:33):
From seven to thirteen, I.
Speaker 4 (02:36):
Ended up having to go live with my grandmother because
of physical abuse. But I think that maybe separation issues
or the situation with my mother my father's not being there,
I started getting into trouble hanging with the wrong people. Luckily,
I always had like an interest in music, though.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
What's the kind of music that speaks to you rap?
Speaker 4 (02:58):
I think like when I was younger, where I would
have problems, I would just listen to the music. That's
all I did. And around that time I figured out
that I could rap. I used to write poetry before that,
and I just kind of put the poetry to music.
Speaker 3 (03:13):
Unfortunately, when I was.
Speaker 4 (03:15):
Like fourteen, I got locked up for stealing cars and
I went to a place called Boysville of Michigan.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
Dwayne spent nearly four years there, but when he was released,
he continued to follow his music dreams through the early nineties.
Speaker 4 (03:31):
I always was doing something with music, but music didn't
make money, so I kind of was off and on
with it. I was managed by a company called Starlight
Entertainment and Limousine.
Speaker 3 (03:42):
They had limousine.
Speaker 4 (03:43):
So what we would do is if you were a
permoder and you would bring in somebody big in that
we would basically tell you, We'll give you the limousine
to pick this guy up at the airport, take him
to the shows, take him to the hotel, any promotional
events that you have, but you have to put my
stage with Diablo.
Speaker 3 (04:00):
So you have to put Diablo on the show.
Speaker 4 (04:03):
My name has to be on all the flyers, all
the radio advertisers, and when you go to pick that
artist up, I'm in the limit.
Speaker 3 (04:10):
You can believe that.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
That's a pretty brilliant move that gave.
Speaker 4 (04:12):
Me the ability to connect with the artist or anybody
else who was with him. Besides getting rich, I did
everything in the music business. I signed all the grand
I toured, and like how Eminem says, you only had
one hot to blow, I actually have had probably a
shot at four major record deals. But at any rate,
(04:34):
the point that I want to make was I had
way more opportunities than most people to be successful in
the music business. But because of my past and another
wrong for convintion, it basically messed all of that up.
Speaker 1 (04:49):
And this isn't the first time we've had a guest
with multiple wrongful convictions. Dwayne was on the receiving end
of a false accusation, but with no evidence. He was
still convicted of a lesser charge in two thousand and two,
after which his public defender responded to his claims of
innocence with and this is a quote, Well, innocent people
(05:10):
go to jail too, end quote. Dwayne perouled in two
thousand and four, and the address on record belonged to
his mom's longtime boyfriend, Bobby Cross.
Speaker 4 (05:20):
Bobby Cross was like a bully. She was kind of
a big guy. And anybody who knows and they know
this is shoeing. He basically bullied everybody around him. When
they was at a neighbor's house and he started telling
me basically, get so sit excuse my leg gets so
sick in that bitch, sit out of my house. And
he was talking about my mother and neighbors. Now they
want us out of the house. So when they're sending
(05:44):
us out of the house, I'm basically telling Bobby.
Speaker 3 (05:46):
Hey, look, I don't want the problems. I don't want
the trouble. Whatever you tell.
Speaker 4 (05:50):
Every time I try to walk away from him, he
would like step in front of me and block me.
So I told him I didn't want no physical altercation.
He told me that's what he wants.
Speaker 3 (06:00):
It.
Speaker 4 (06:00):
So, to make a long story short, I hit him
and I knocked him out, and so it hurts his pride.
So for years and years he never brought it up.
We never had problems about it, but because I know
the type of person that he is, and this is
really embarrassing to him. From that point on, if he
was drinking, it had a good I see there for
(06:20):
four or five minutes and I'm leaving.
Speaker 1 (06:22):
So it appears, as is honestly often the case, that
alcohol can exacerbate personality traits as well as a quietly
held grudge, and so Dwayne chose never to live at
that address while continuing to pursue his music dreams with
this brilliant limousine strategy.
Speaker 4 (06:41):
Eventually we did that a few times with Tea Pain,
and when T Pain's brothers saw it that, he basically
told me that it's amazing. In the midst of this,
I started sending my music all over the country and
clubs started booking me. So now I'm basically nobody, but well, yeah,
he's nobody, but he's connect It's a Tea Pay t
Pay's brother mandyism. So now they're paying me to come
(07:05):
to different places in America to do so, but unfortunately
I had a bad row officer who didn't like me.
If DFC gave me permission to do so, and he
would have to approve me, and he would never approve them.
So because this took away my source of income. When
me and my wife are married, now, I'm basically like
(07:26):
looking for regular jobs and I'm just trying to make it.
Speaker 1 (07:29):
And that brings us to August twenty twelve. This is
when Dwayne and his new wife spend the weekend of
the eighteenth to nineteenth with Dwayne's mother and with Bobby Cross.
They're following leads on a new place to live in
that area, and when Sunday came, there was a barbecue
in the neighborhood, as well as some drinking that went
(07:50):
late into the night.
Speaker 4 (07:51):
I had got some stakes for somebody to barbecue. At
some point, somebody told me that Bob Cross wanted to
talk to me, so I went across the street. He
told me that I cooked steaks and I didn't offer one.
I told him that you can have all of them.
He told me that he didn't like steaks. So basically,
there's nothing else to say.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
It appears this was just the begetting of some unnecessary drama.
So the night continued on, as did the drinking, all
the way until somewhere after two am.
Speaker 4 (08:22):
In the midst of this, an argument occurs between my wife,
Bobby Cross's daughter, and Bobby Cross. This disagreement and I'm
not even in it, but it got turned around to
look like something else. So from two in the morning
to whatever time in the morning when my mother left,
my mother and Bobby Cross basically they're arguing from room
(08:43):
to room. The last thing my mother said to me
was I'm leaving it before he kills everybody in the
house and they drinking.
Speaker 3 (08:51):
I ain't paid no attention to that. I went you
was the bathroom.
Speaker 4 (08:54):
When I came out of the bathroom, I saw Bobby
Cross standing there with a shotgun. He never said anything
to me, never threatened me, nothing happened, but nah, he
has a good So I left.
Speaker 3 (09:06):
And that was four in the morning.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
So Dwayne left to find somewhere else to stay for
the night. Bobby was sleeping it off. Around six in
the morning, first responders were dispatched to a fire at
Bobby Cross's house, and it's important to mention that a
man named Darryl Simms stayed on the couch. This was
determined to have been the origin point of the fire.
Speaker 5 (09:28):
Mister Simms, he did have disabilities, he was known to
smoke on the couch. Initially, the fire was classified as undetermined,
which means that there was no conclusion that the fire
was intentionally set.
Speaker 4 (09:41):
Well, because the whole situation the night before that I
just told you about.
Speaker 3 (09:46):
Remember now, me and mister Cross, we're not.
Speaker 4 (09:49):
Arguing, but because of that situation, I guess the family
members had animosity. Jackie crossed his daughter. He ended up
being one of the main people accusing me of.
Speaker 1 (09:59):
Star Thankfully, the investigators followed the facts at the scene
and therefore the deaths were ruled accidental. This did not
become a homicide investigation until three months later. A man
named Gary Jennings, the boyfriend of one of Bobby Cross's relatives,
Shannon Tyler. Gary Jennings is arrested for driving without a license,
(10:21):
cannabis possession, and copying audio video recordings for.
Speaker 5 (10:25):
Gates, and that last one was a felony charge. He
had previously been convicted of the same offense and was
on probation at the time. Gary Jennings said to police,
and he testified at trial that the impetus for him
making contact with Dwayne was that another individual, Deshaun Seabrooks,
told Gary Jennings that Dwayne had made a big mistake.
(10:45):
He used different words, but Gary said that made me
contact Dwayne, and Dwayne confessed to me.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
So Gary Jennings claimed that Dwayne said that he lit
the blaze after this argument over rent money, which sounds
like the ky narrative that might arise when perhaps an
investigator looks into the addressed which Dwayne was paroled, but
not where he actually lived. By the way, this statement
was unrecorded.
Speaker 6 (11:11):
It's always a red flag when there is a so
called statement or confession that's not recorded, prime opportunity to
just make something up. And the fact that mister Jennings
was currently in jail facing some pretty serious charges while
he was already on probation and he just magically has
(11:33):
all of this information about a quote unquote crime that
had occurred, and that mister Williams was involved. All of
those things also very problematic.
Speaker 1 (11:43):
And then from what we understand as well, I believe
his felony charge is dismissed.
Speaker 6 (11:50):
Yeah, he got a really sweet deal out of this.
Speaker 4 (11:54):
Gary Tannings, So he's not a snatch, he's a liar
because I never talked to him about anything.
Speaker 3 (11:58):
It was anything for him to talk about.
Speaker 4 (12:00):
But after Gary Jennings popped up and talks to the
correct police officers, it comes up with a rent story.
Then months later the family members come up with a
rent story in a motive tube. So in the beginning
this didn't exist.
Speaker 1 (12:15):
Despite no previous mention of this rent disagreement from the
Cross family, their statements and eventual testimony become aligned with
Gary Jennings statement.
Speaker 5 (12:25):
I think the statement itself is suspect, but what came
after or what didn't come after, is arguably even more concerning,
because a member of the public can go to the
police and say whatever they want to, but it's on
the police and other law enforcement prosecutors and the like
to make sure that the statement is credible if they
intend to use it, and in fact, police talk with
(12:48):
people specifically. I have deshaun Sebrooks, who discredited mister Jennings's statement,
and unfortunately that statement was never disclosed to Dwayne or
to his attorney. So everything that police had wade in
favor of discrediting mister Jennings, but instead they decided to
credit him and cover up evidence that he was incredible
(13:08):
and proceived with trial.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
But first they had to present the dubious statement to
the medical examiner to have her reconsider the cause of
these two deaths.
Speaker 5 (13:18):
The deaths were initially deemed accidents. The medical examiner changed
the determination to homicide, but we actually went back and
spoke with the medical examiner who told us that if
she were evaluating the case now, the correct determination, if
there was going to be one for manner of death,
should have been undetermined.
Speaker 1 (13:35):
But that determination was the last stop gap between Dwayne
and charges for arson and two counts of felony murder.
Speaker 4 (13:44):
I was at my assist in law's house and I'm
in the basement asleep. All of a sudden I heard
somebody called it by name, and they ended up coming down.
They had goods out ay Keffy, and I remember I
kept asking, what are you arresting me for? They never
taught me of what was going on, but they brought
me outside, took me to the station, and I remember
(14:05):
getting there and we got in the room.
Speaker 3 (14:06):
They started talking about the fire.
Speaker 4 (14:08):
I guess I was kind of stocked and a lot
of the days he's saying to me, it doesn't make sense.
You know you watched TV shows. The police say, well,
we already know the answer to the question. He asked
me questions like had me and missus Cross ever had
disputes about money? When no, I never got any money
from him. He never got any money from me. But
(14:29):
I didn't realize that he was asking this question because
of the lies that Jenny told.
Speaker 1 (14:35):
For some reason, the prosecution had trouble locating Gary Jennings
for trial as scheduled, so it was postponed until August
twenty eighth, twenty thirteen. What he testified about Deshaun Sebrooks
telling him about Dwayne, who then allegedly confessed to setting
the house on fire over a disagreement about rent, as
(14:55):
well as how Gary Jennings' girlfriend Shannon Tyler had told
him about the fire only after this alleged confession. Strangely,
neither Tyler nor Seabrooks participated, but Bobby Cross's daughter Jackie did.
Speaker 4 (15:08):
Then miss Cross gets understand and now she has a
story about two weeks where for argument's over rent, which
is what Jenny said. It made it look like me
and her father were having continue as problems, and none
of those things that she testified to whoever happened, and
my lawyer didn't do any investigation, wouldn't talk to anybody.
Speaker 1 (15:30):
And had he spoken to Deshaun Seabrooks or Miss Tyler,
perhaps he would have been able to impeach the state's witnesses.
But most importantly, the defense neglected to even consult with
a fire expert.
Speaker 5 (15:42):
One thing that stood out to me immediately was that
only one expert testified, and that expert was the government's expert,
Captain McNulty, who's now retired, who arrived at the scene
hours after the fire, testified on behalf of the prosecution,
but no defense expert testified to poke holes in what
turned out to be a really faulty analysis.
Speaker 1 (16:04):
McNulty testified that no smoky materials were found near the couch,
but oddly no photographic evidence was shared with the defense
nor offered to the jury to corroborate that claim. McNulty
also claimed that an open flame like a cigarette lighter,
was a more likely cause of the blaze, and that
it's extremely hard to get a couch to burn with
(16:26):
a cigarette. This all begs the question, are all couches
the same? Are all materials as flammable as others? Additionally,
nothing was offered to rule out a smoldering cigarette or
any other possible accidental cause.
Speaker 5 (16:42):
I would say in most arson cases the defense should
at least consult an expert. But here we have two
sets of problems, and you've pointed out some of them.
We have problems with the experts testimony, even knowing what
the defense and the prosecution knew at the time of trial,
what was presented and unchallenged. And then we have things
(17:03):
that we discovered in our investigation later on that blew
this wide open.
Speaker 1 (17:08):
And we'll get to all that they hid from the
defense and in just a bit. But still trial counsel
failed to use what was available to him to discredit
the state's case, not only lay witnesses but also their expert.
Even the jury was curious enough to ask for the
transcript of McNulty's testimony and other documents as they were
(17:28):
deadlocked for some time. But ultimately Dwayne was convicted on
one count of oursen, one count second degree murder, and
one count felony murder, resulting in a life sentence without
the possibility of parole.
Speaker 4 (17:41):
At that moment, cross family members, we're making faces at
me like a little kid is like you stick your
tongue out like that. They kept doing stuff like that
to me. And what really bothered me about that word
that you just said in this court room and got my.
Speaker 3 (17:56):
Whole life took for me. And now you back there
doing that. You think this is the game.
Speaker 4 (18:16):
I think that until you're in a real serious situation.
Maybe people think the appeal process works. There's all these
mechanisms in the system that look like they work until
you the.
Speaker 3 (18:28):
Guy stuck in the system trying to use them.
Speaker 4 (18:31):
As time goes on and you watch people who you
know in they file briefs and you know that they
should have won and they got shot down, it's hard
to keep hoping. So going through the process, I was
disappointed things were getting shot down, and at some point
I decided that I can comprehend things, I can read well.
(18:52):
I decided I better do my own thing can work,
because at least if I stay in prison, it's my fault.
I can live with that.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
After Dwayne's direct appeal, as that died up through the
State Supreme Court as well as on federal habeas. He
began writing to anyone who might be able to help,
which included the newly formed Wayne County Conviction Integrity Unit.
This is how an guaranted the Kooley Innocence Project got involved.
Speaker 6 (19:16):
The Cooley Innocence Project has a partnership with the Wayne
County Conviction Integrity and Cooley is primarily a DNA and
forensic clinic. And in twenty twenty his case was referred
to our office here at Cooley. A very sharp student
came across Dwayne's file and brought it to our attention
(19:39):
and said, something is very wrong with this man's conviction.
And the student and the staff attorney went to visit
Dwayne and introduced themselves.
Speaker 1 (19:48):
And then Dwayne's outreach also scored him help with the
Michigan Appellate Defender's office. In twenty twenty one, I.
Speaker 5 (19:54):
Ended up on the case kind of through dumb luck.
Dwayne had filed a request for and on post judgment
motions like this one. It's very rare at that stage
of the proceedings to get counsel appointed, but it happened
that way, and it was exciting to me to work
on a case with actual innocence issues, and by the
(20:15):
time I came on the scene, he had already done
so much research, so much writing, so much communication with Cooley,
so he had set up the case really nicely. Shortly
after we were appointed, we started peppering different law enforcement
agencies with requests for records, documents, police reports, photos, and
there are two big things that came out of our
(20:35):
first and most important for your request. One was a
version of the fire investigator's report that had not previously
been disclosed to the defense. At the time of trial.
Dwayne's trial council had a version of the fire investigator
report that had most all of the information in it,
but one very important fact was missing from that report,
(20:56):
and when you look at the two side by side,
it almost looks as if a piece of the report
has been cut out, not exactly like white out, but
almost like xcized from the version that we ultimately obtained,
and that line stated that a Zippo style lighter was
found in the debris near the area of origin, which
(21:16):
was near a couch that had been consumed by the fire,
but that was where the fire investigator thought the fire
had originated.
Speaker 1 (21:23):
Which is obviously a Brady violation. It's also interesting that
the same fire investigator even eschewed a smoldering cigarette as
a less likely option to a lighter like the one
removed from that report.
Speaker 5 (21:37):
So we discovered that there was this additional version of
the report. We also discovered that there were fifty eight
photos that had never been given to the defense, and
in those photos you could see the Zippo style lighter
that was indeed at the area of origin. So this
mattered because the defense theory at trial and our theory
now is that the fire was caused by careless smoking.
(21:57):
It was an accident. There were people in the house
who were known to smoke in the house, and one
of the people who sadly died was known to smoke
on the couch that was the area of origin. When
the fire investigator tells the jury that there are no
smoking materials at the scene, that really discredits the defense theory.
But in fact, there was a smoking material. A lighter
is a smoking material, and so that was something that
(22:19):
was major and that, as I said before, really blew
the case wide open for.
Speaker 1 (22:23):
A lot of us listening tonight. The idea of purposely
excising something that pivotal feels illegal, if not highly unethical.
Speaker 5 (22:36):
It is illegal and unethical. I do not know who
did it, and I do not know if it was
done purposefully. I have to be totally honest with you.
I think we can all imagine what may or may
not have happened. But at this point, all I can
tell you is that it's in one version and it's
not in another, and both of those reports, what I
(22:56):
call the original and then the redacted or excised version,
we're both in the prosecutor's possession at the time of trial.
Speaker 1 (23:03):
This also leads naturally to another question. If there is
this zippo lighter in the photograph, what happened to the
physical object.
Speaker 5 (23:12):
Well, we know that the prosecution could not locate it
during the course of our investigation years after trial, and
there's no record of it ever having been collected and
kept or tested or anything that should have happened. Our
expert Mark Fennell talked with us about the importance of
in a case like this, collecting any smoking materials, any
(23:33):
implements that could have been used to start a fire,
and then testing them to determine whether they actually had
the capability of starting the fire. So, unfortunately that was
not done. No one has come forward with the lighter,
not the Detroit Police Department, not the Wayne County Prosecutor's office.
So to our knowledge, their lighter does not exist, and
it was never collected and certainly was not tested.
Speaker 3 (23:55):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (23:56):
And Mark Fennell also called into question and some of
the earlier statements by Captain McNulty, especially the idea of
flammability of couches and cigarettes, and something I thought a
lot of people would have already clocked. Not all couches
are made of the same material. I mean, some stuff
(24:18):
is more flammable than other stuff, right.
Speaker 5 (24:20):
That's absolutely right. That's something that unfortunately the jury did
not hear at the original trial, and I wish they
had because Mark Fennell even provided us with a video
that to this day lives rent free in my mind,
because it shows just how quickly many of the couches
that we may have in our homes could combust and
could start an absolutely disastrous fire. So it's true that
(24:44):
it's difficult to light a leather couch on fire, but
the evidence that we have suggests that the couch that
was consumed in the fire here was not leather. It
was a more polyester type of couch. That is more
easy to light on fire. For Captain McNulty to testify
that it's incredibly difficult to get a couch to burn
(25:04):
with a cigarette. I can't say whether he was intentionally
misleading the jury. I hope he wasn't, But in fact,
we know that the jury did not get a complete
and full picture of what went on in this fire
or what could happen in general when you hold a
cigarette to a couch or you drop, for example, a
cigarette in between couch cushions. That seems like a very
(25:28):
likely story here that mister Simms, he did have disabilities,
He was known to smoke on the couch that was
eventually the origin of the fire. It is possible that
he fell asleep and dropped a cigarette. So I just
I can tell you that, even if it wasn't intentional,
Captain McNulty definitely misled the jury into believing that the
(25:49):
couch here could not have caught on fire but for
an intentionally set fire.
Speaker 3 (25:57):
That's the lawyer answer.
Speaker 7 (25:58):
My answer, Yes, he knew what he was doing and
he did it all part.
Speaker 1 (26:13):
It's difficult to maintain faith in this investigation and these people,
especially when we see a Brady violation of this magnitude, I'm,
of course, speaking about what appears to be an altered
version of the original fire investigation report. And it becomes
even more difficult to maintain faith when you consider DeShawn Seabrooks.
Speaker 5 (26:34):
Gary Jennings said to police and testified at trial that
I got information from Deshaun and that made me contact Wayne.
What the defense was never told at the time of trial,
and what we didn't get our hands on until years
of working on the case myself, was a statement by
Deshaun Seabrooks. The Waynkenny prosecutor sent an investigator to speak
(26:55):
with DeShawn Seabrooks. Deshaun Seabrooks told the prosecutors investigator that
he did not know Gary Jennings and he did not
know about any fire supposedly involving Dwayne until law enforcement
told him about that. So not only hadn't they talked
about the fire, but that he didn't even know Gary.
Speaker 1 (27:13):
But wait, there's war.
Speaker 5 (27:15):
Yes, there was another witness who the prosecution interviewed and
whose statement was not turned over to the defense, and
his name was Ron Rogers. Now, Ron Rogers' involvement in
all of this is a little bit more attenuated, but
we can sum it up by saying that had mister
Rogers statement been turned over to the defense, the defense
(27:37):
could have chosen to either call him as a witness
or call the prosecution's investigator as a witness to discredit
some of the other lay witnesses. For example, Jackie Cross
told police that they got some of their information from
Ron Rodgers, but when Ron Rogers talked to the prosecutor's investigator,
mister Rogers said that he didn't know anything about the fire.
And so again it's a bit attenuated. But you have
(28:00):
people coming to court and testifying to things that they
say are corroborated or known by other people, and then
when the prosecution goes and talks with those other people,
they don't know anything. And unfortunately, the jury never heard that,
and the defense didn't even know about those statements or
those interviews that the prosecution's investigator did. And we submitted
(28:20):
a couple of different documents applications to the Conviction Integrity
Unit summarizing all the relevant evidence. Then they did additional investigation.
We did have Denver Butler, who was an investigator, an
independent person who was able to do additional interviews and
track down witnesses. So there was a lot of movement
from a lot of different parties on this case. But
(28:40):
ultimately the conviction Integrity Unit reviewed everything and recommended that
Dwayne be granted relief. That recommendation then goes to the
pad prosecutor in Wayne County, Kim Worthy, and she signed
off and agreed that yes, the conviction here was wrongful
and should not stand.
Speaker 1 (28:57):
So now all they needed was a court date to
file a joint motion to vacate convictions and sentences, which
happens on June seventeenth, twenty twenty four, over a decade
after Dwayne's arrest to.
Speaker 4 (29:09):
Here to just say that my sins was vacate and
the know that they finally went away after all that time,
he was really gone.
Speaker 3 (29:17):
That was something.
Speaker 4 (29:18):
Walking out the prison light five o'clock that afternoon, walking
through the metal detectors going out of the prison, and
I remember like how some of the seels were talking
to me, and I remember thinking, well, man, why didn't
they talk to me like that before? But just walking
out that gate and getting in, I was band and
(29:38):
coming to Detroit, knowing that I was coming back to Detroit,
I don't know how to describe it really.
Speaker 1 (29:45):
Now the Dwayne's out, He's been working with two nonprofits,
one called Firefly Advocates, which works toward criminal legal system
reform as well as supporting reintegration for system impact of folks,
and the second comes to us from another Michigan based
exogneri Ken Nixon. His group is called the Organization of
(30:05):
Exogneries Will Length. Thus in the episode of description. Outside
of that, Dwayne is back out there making music, meeting
other artists, and we'll link ways for you to find him.
Speaker 4 (30:15):
Uh yeah, you gotta like YouTube dio d I a
b l O white mess and I just posted on
my Facebook for the first time since I've been out.
I started recording. So it's like a little snippet or something.
Rest It's like they didn't killed. I was probably you
had a station through a cloud for the lives. Hey,
get the yard, I was robbing. Even call me with
(30:36):
a knife. I'm mother the police and your muss I
got thirty red. That's a lifetime. I'm innocent. Plus I
could read plus get the little library reading. K's out
the Kate, tell them here, stay the fuck up my face.
Get respected on the yard because I'm fighting it straight.
The hunt they seem to getting first, I'm getting closer,
but closer. Zum mee to turn the weeks man, the
shit gonna be yo.
Speaker 3 (30:55):
Touchdown with the pics. You might see me your round high. Yes,
I'm easy to miss.
Speaker 4 (31:00):
Out of town house.
Speaker 3 (31:01):
We probably meet you still, Holly.
Speaker 4 (31:04):
Who is a'm good and never hood in this dating
the rapper And that was let them do what I
call him the mouth hit the make a couple of times,
put a.
Speaker 3 (31:10):
Couple hounded out for self.
Speaker 4 (31:13):
It's kind of interested what I'm talking about, the wrong
for QB. So I just did that this born.
Speaker 1 (31:18):
We wish ed Wayne all the luck in the world.
And with that we come to the last segment of
the show, where first I'd like to thank you all
for joining us today. Then I'll open the space for
our guests to share and enclosing thoughts they might have.
Why don't we go in alphabetical order, so we'll start
with Ann, then Maya, and last but not least, we
(31:38):
leave it to Dwayne.
Speaker 6 (31:39):
Dwayne's case is a case that never should have happened,
A crime wasn't committed. I think that society has this
false sense that it's a justice system. Look at all
the people that were impacted by Dwayne's case, including Dwayne,
his family, society, and it takes an absurd amount of time.
(32:04):
I always tell people it's like unringing a bell. It's
very easy in theory to put someone into this situation,
but it takes a miracle to get someone out of
this situation. Without the state of Pelot Defender Office and
with our collaboration with the Wayne County Conviction Integrity Unit,
in having conviction integrity units and the determination and the
(32:27):
persistence of the director Beal Newman, I'm not sure that
we would be having this discussion right now. And Dwayne's story,
sadly is not unique. If people knew that this was
happening in their own communities and how it impacts everybody
from an emotional standpoint, from a financial standpoint. That's the
(32:50):
big thing that I push all the time is the
education of wrongful convictions.
Speaker 5 (32:55):
I would also note that at the time of Dwayne's trial,
he was represented by appointed council and I happen to
know the attorney who represented him, and he does a
lot of really great work. So this is not to
slander him or to suggest that he's a bad lawyer.
But I will say that the system, particularly at the
time Duane was facing trial in twenty twelve and twenty thirteen,
(33:19):
the provision of counsel to indigent people, people who are
facing charges as serious as the ones Duane was facing,
was not good at all, and there have been lots
of improvements in Michigan since then, but I do know
that in other states there are similar problems that still
occur where people are not provided a lawyer who has
(33:40):
the capacity and time to assist them properly, who has
the funding requisite to hire an investigator or an expert,
both of which in my view, should have been done
in this case. So I would just point out that
there are systemic issues that led to some of the
problems here, and as I mentioned, if we were appointed
by really a fluke, and so the fact that Dwayne
(34:02):
got counsel on appeal or on a secondary appeal was
also pretty unusual, and it's still unusual today. So I
would just say that I do think there are lots
and lots of people who are inside prison, serving time
sometimes life sentences for crimes they did not commit, but
they don't have lawyers to assist them.
Speaker 3 (34:20):
Just really did take a team.
Speaker 4 (34:22):
And that's one of the things that God's Christy said
to me before I left. I don't have what you had,
but God put all of these things in place and
all of these people in place to help me. And
I really realized now how hard it is and how
blessed I really am. So I'm going to use the
words a kind Nixon, the president of the Organization of
Exigner rees Ken always se is it starts with voting.
(34:45):
A prosecutor is a powerful position and they answer to
the people in all your choices. When you vote, you
need to really be careful and pay attention. It's important
in education learning this system. I think they sad teachers.
It's mid Love's favorite four fifth sixth amen in school.
Bestally in areas where you might be more likely to
(35:08):
have legal problems, because when you don't know anything, anything
can happen to you.
Speaker 2 (35:19):
Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. You can listen
to this and all the Lava for Good podcasts one
week early and ad free by subscribing to Lava for
Good Plus on Apple Podcasts. I want to thank our
production team, Connor Hall and Kathleen Fink as well as
my fellow executive producers Jeff Kempler, Kevin Wartis, and Jeff Cliber.
The music in this production was supplied by three time
(35:39):
OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us
across all social media platforms at Lava for Good and
at Wrongful Conviction. You can also follow me on Instagram
at It's Jason Flamm. Wrongful Conviction is the production of
Lava for Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company Number One.
We've worked hard to ensure that all facts reported in
this show are accurate. The views and opinions expressed by
(36:00):
the individuals featured in this show are their own and
do not necessarily reflect those of Lava for Good.
On the morning of August twenty, twenty twelve, a Detroit
house fire killed two men, Bobby Cross and Daryl Simms.
Citing an argument from the night prior, the Cross family
wondered whether Bobby Cross's girlfriend's son, Dwayne Williams, had set
the blaze. However, with no evidence of arson, these deaths
(00:25):
were ruled accidental until three months later, when someone tied
to the family was looking for a way out of
a jam. They claimed that Dwayne confessed to this arson,
sending him away for life. This is Wrongful Conviction.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
You're listening to Wrongful Conviction. You can listen to this
and all the Lava for Good podcasts one week early
and ad free by subscribing to Lava for Good Plus
on Apple Podcasts.
Speaker 1 (01:06):
Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction. I'm Ben Bullen, the host
of Stuff they Don't Want You To Know, and your
host here on Wrongful Conviction for the next few episodes.
This story takes us to Detroit, Michigan, where we've previously
covered stories involving an elaborate jailhouse snitch system. We'll link
some of those in the episode description, but this one
(01:28):
is a little different from those scenarios. And the state's
alleged witness in this case was able to flip two
accidental deaths into a double homicide charge. For our guest today,
Dwayne Williams. Dwayne, thanks for joining us, Man, thank you
for having me. We also want to welcome the co
director of the Cooley Innocence Project and Garrett thanks for
(01:49):
being here absolutely, as well as Maya Menlo from the
Michigan Appellate Defender's Office.
Speaker 3 (01:55):
Thanks.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
What I think we should start off with first is
to have you tell us a little bit about your
childhood before the series of tragic events.
Speaker 4 (02:05):
I'm from a neighborhood in the trait called Brightmore. It's
on the west side of the trait. If you ask
them about it, it has a reputation for like selling
drugs and like the neighborhood being abandoned. I would say
it's considered possibly one of the worst neighborhoods on the
west Side.
Speaker 3 (02:21):
That's the neighborhood I grew up in.
Speaker 4 (02:24):
I hate that I had to grow up someone like that,
but it helped to make me the person who I
was now. In my childhood, I lived with my mother
till I was about seven.
Speaker 3 (02:33):
From seven to thirteen, I.
Speaker 4 (02:36):
Ended up having to go live with my grandmother because
of physical abuse. But I think that maybe separation issues
or the situation with my mother my father's not being there,
I started getting into trouble hanging with the wrong people. Luckily,
I always had like an interest in music, though.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
What's the kind of music that speaks to you rap?
Speaker 4 (02:58):
I think like when I was younger, where I would
have problems, I would just listen to the music. That's
all I did. And around that time I figured out
that I could rap. I used to write poetry before that,
and I just kind of put the poetry to music.
Speaker 3 (03:13):
Unfortunately, when I was.
Speaker 4 (03:15):
Like fourteen, I got locked up for stealing cars and
I went to a place called Boysville of Michigan.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
Dwayne spent nearly four years there, but when he was released,
he continued to follow his music dreams through the early nineties.
Speaker 4 (03:31):
I always was doing something with music, but music didn't
make money, so I kind of was off and on
with it. I was managed by a company called Starlight
Entertainment and Limousine.
Speaker 3 (03:42):
They had limousine.
Speaker 4 (03:43):
So what we would do is if you were a
permoder and you would bring in somebody big in that
we would basically tell you, We'll give you the limousine
to pick this guy up at the airport, take him
to the shows, take him to the hotel, any promotional
events that you have, but you have to put my
stage with Diablo.
Speaker 3 (04:00):
So you have to put Diablo on the show.
Speaker 4 (04:03):
My name has to be on all the flyers, all
the radio advertisers, and when you go to pick that
artist up, I'm in the limit.
Speaker 3 (04:10):
You can believe that.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
That's a pretty brilliant move that gave.
Speaker 4 (04:12):
Me the ability to connect with the artist or anybody
else who was with him. Besides getting rich, I did
everything in the music business. I signed all the grand
I toured, and like how Eminem says, you only had
one hot to blow, I actually have had probably a
shot at four major record deals. But at any rate,
(04:34):
the point that I want to make was I had
way more opportunities than most people to be successful in
the music business. But because of my past and another
wrong for convintion, it basically messed all of that up.
Speaker 1 (04:49):
And this isn't the first time we've had a guest
with multiple wrongful convictions. Dwayne was on the receiving end
of a false accusation, but with no evidence. He was
still convicted of a lesser charge in two thousand and two,
after which his public defender responded to his claims of
innocence with and this is a quote, Well, innocent people
(05:10):
go to jail too, end quote. Dwayne perouled in two
thousand and four, and the address on record belonged to
his mom's longtime boyfriend, Bobby Cross.
Speaker 4 (05:20):
Bobby Cross was like a bully. She was kind of
a big guy. And anybody who knows and they know
this is shoeing. He basically bullied everybody around him. When
they was at a neighbor's house and he started telling
me basically, get so sit excuse my leg gets so
sick in that bitch, sit out of my house. And
he was talking about my mother and neighbors. Now they
want us out of the house. So when they're sending
(05:44):
us out of the house, I'm basically telling Bobby.
Speaker 3 (05:46):
Hey, look, I don't want the problems. I don't want
the trouble. Whatever you tell.
Speaker 4 (05:50):
Every time I try to walk away from him, he
would like step in front of me and block me.
So I told him I didn't want no physical altercation.
He told me that's what he wants.
Speaker 3 (06:00):
It.
Speaker 4 (06:00):
So, to make a long story short, I hit him
and I knocked him out, and so it hurts his pride.
So for years and years he never brought it up.
We never had problems about it, but because I know
the type of person that he is, and this is
really embarrassing to him. From that point on, if he
was drinking, it had a good I see there for
(06:20):
four or five minutes and I'm leaving.
Speaker 1 (06:22):
So it appears, as is honestly often the case, that
alcohol can exacerbate personality traits as well as a quietly
held grudge, and so Dwayne chose never to live at
that address while continuing to pursue his music dreams with
this brilliant limousine strategy.
Speaker 4 (06:41):
Eventually we did that a few times with Tea Pain,
and when T Pain's brothers saw it that, he basically
told me that it's amazing. In the midst of this,
I started sending my music all over the country and
clubs started booking me. So now I'm basically nobody, but well, yeah,
he's nobody, but he's connect It's a Tea Pay t
Pay's brother mandyism. So now they're paying me to come
(07:05):
to different places in America to do so, but unfortunately
I had a bad row officer who didn't like me.
If DFC gave me permission to do so, and he
would have to approve me, and he would never approve them.
So because this took away my source of income. When
me and my wife are married, now, I'm basically like
(07:26):
looking for regular jobs and I'm just trying to make it.
Speaker 1 (07:29):
And that brings us to August twenty twelve. This is
when Dwayne and his new wife spend the weekend of
the eighteenth to nineteenth with Dwayne's mother and with Bobby Cross.
They're following leads on a new place to live in
that area, and when Sunday came, there was a barbecue
in the neighborhood, as well as some drinking that went
(07:50):
late into the night.
Speaker 4 (07:51):
I had got some stakes for somebody to barbecue. At
some point, somebody told me that Bob Cross wanted to
talk to me, so I went across the street. He
told me that I cooked steaks and I didn't offer one.
I told him that you can have all of them.
He told me that he didn't like steaks. So basically,
there's nothing else to say.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
It appears this was just the begetting of some unnecessary drama.
So the night continued on, as did the drinking, all
the way until somewhere after two am.
Speaker 4 (08:22):
In the midst of this, an argument occurs between my wife,
Bobby Cross's daughter, and Bobby Cross. This disagreement and I'm
not even in it, but it got turned around to
look like something else. So from two in the morning
to whatever time in the morning when my mother left,
my mother and Bobby Cross basically they're arguing from room
(08:43):
to room. The last thing my mother said to me
was I'm leaving it before he kills everybody in the
house and they drinking.
Speaker 3 (08:51):
I ain't paid no attention to that. I went you
was the bathroom.
Speaker 4 (08:54):
When I came out of the bathroom, I saw Bobby
Cross standing there with a shotgun. He never said anything
to me, never threatened me, nothing happened, but nah, he
has a good So I left.
Speaker 3 (09:06):
And that was four in the morning.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
So Dwayne left to find somewhere else to stay for
the night. Bobby was sleeping it off. Around six in
the morning, first responders were dispatched to a fire at
Bobby Cross's house, and it's important to mention that a
man named Darryl Simms stayed on the couch. This was
determined to have been the origin point of the fire.
Speaker 5 (09:28):
Mister Simms, he did have disabilities, he was known to
smoke on the couch. Initially, the fire was classified as undetermined,
which means that there was no conclusion that the fire
was intentionally set.
Speaker 4 (09:41):
Well, because the whole situation the night before that I
just told you about.
Speaker 3 (09:46):
Remember now, me and mister Cross, we're not.
Speaker 4 (09:49):
Arguing, but because of that situation, I guess the family
members had animosity. Jackie crossed his daughter. He ended up
being one of the main people accusing me of.
Speaker 1 (09:59):
Star Thankfully, the investigators followed the facts at the scene
and therefore the deaths were ruled accidental. This did not
become a homicide investigation until three months later. A man
named Gary Jennings, the boyfriend of one of Bobby Cross's relatives,
Shannon Tyler. Gary Jennings is arrested for driving without a license,
(10:21):
cannabis possession, and copying audio video recordings for.
Speaker 5 (10:25):
Gates, and that last one was a felony charge. He
had previously been convicted of the same offense and was
on probation at the time. Gary Jennings said to police,
and he testified at trial that the impetus for him
making contact with Dwayne was that another individual, Deshaun Seabrooks,
told Gary Jennings that Dwayne had made a big mistake.
(10:45):
He used different words, but Gary said that made me
contact Dwayne, and Dwayne confessed to me.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
So Gary Jennings claimed that Dwayne said that he lit
the blaze after this argument over rent money, which sounds
like the ky narrative that might arise when perhaps an
investigator looks into the addressed which Dwayne was paroled, but
not where he actually lived. By the way, this statement
was unrecorded.
Speaker 6 (11:11):
It's always a red flag when there is a so
called statement or confession that's not recorded, prime opportunity to
just make something up. And the fact that mister Jennings
was currently in jail facing some pretty serious charges while
he was already on probation and he just magically has
(11:33):
all of this information about a quote unquote crime that
had occurred, and that mister Williams was involved. All of
those things also very problematic.
Speaker 1 (11:43):
And then from what we understand as well, I believe
his felony charge is dismissed.
Speaker 6 (11:50):
Yeah, he got a really sweet deal out of this.
Speaker 4 (11:54):
Gary Tannings, So he's not a snatch, he's a liar
because I never talked to him about anything.
Speaker 3 (11:58):
It was anything for him to talk about.
Speaker 4 (12:00):
But after Gary Jennings popped up and talks to the
correct police officers, it comes up with a rent story.
Then months later the family members come up with a
rent story in a motive tube. So in the beginning
this didn't exist.
Speaker 1 (12:15):
Despite no previous mention of this rent disagreement from the
Cross family, their statements and eventual testimony become aligned with
Gary Jennings statement.
Speaker 5 (12:25):
I think the statement itself is suspect, but what came
after or what didn't come after, is arguably even more concerning,
because a member of the public can go to the
police and say whatever they want to, but it's on
the police and other law enforcement prosecutors and the like
to make sure that the statement is credible if they
intend to use it, and in fact, police talk with
(12:48):
people specifically. I have deshaun Sebrooks, who discredited mister Jennings's statement,
and unfortunately that statement was never disclosed to Dwayne or
to his attorney. So everything that police had wade in
favor of discrediting mister Jennings, but instead they decided to
credit him and cover up evidence that he was incredible
(13:08):
and proceived with trial.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
But first they had to present the dubious statement to
the medical examiner to have her reconsider the cause of
these two deaths.
Speaker 5 (13:18):
The deaths were initially deemed accidents. The medical examiner changed
the determination to homicide, but we actually went back and
spoke with the medical examiner who told us that if
she were evaluating the case now, the correct determination, if
there was going to be one for manner of death,
should have been undetermined.
Speaker 1 (13:35):
But that determination was the last stop gap between Dwayne
and charges for arson and two counts of felony murder.
Speaker 4 (13:44):
I was at my assist in law's house and I'm
in the basement asleep. All of a sudden I heard
somebody called it by name, and they ended up coming down.
They had goods out ay Keffy, and I remember I
kept asking, what are you arresting me for? They never
taught me of what was going on, but they brought
me outside, took me to the station, and I remember
(14:05):
getting there and we got in the room.
Speaker 3 (14:06):
They started talking about the fire.
Speaker 4 (14:08):
I guess I was kind of stocked and a lot
of the days he's saying to me, it doesn't make sense.
You know you watched TV shows. The police say, well,
we already know the answer to the question. He asked
me questions like had me and missus Cross ever had
disputes about money? When no, I never got any money
from him. He never got any money from me. But
(14:29):
I didn't realize that he was asking this question because
of the lies that Jenny told.
Speaker 1 (14:35):
For some reason, the prosecution had trouble locating Gary Jennings
for trial as scheduled, so it was postponed until August
twenty eighth, twenty thirteen. What he testified about Deshaun Sebrooks
telling him about Dwayne, who then allegedly confessed to setting
the house on fire over a disagreement about rent, as
(14:55):
well as how Gary Jennings' girlfriend Shannon Tyler had told
him about the fire only after this alleged confession. Strangely,
neither Tyler nor Seabrooks participated, but Bobby Cross's daughter Jackie did.
Speaker 4 (15:08):
Then miss Cross gets understand and now she has a
story about two weeks where for argument's over rent, which
is what Jenny said. It made it look like me
and her father were having continue as problems, and none
of those things that she testified to whoever happened, and
my lawyer didn't do any investigation, wouldn't talk to anybody.
Speaker 1 (15:30):
And had he spoken to Deshaun Seabrooks or Miss Tyler,
perhaps he would have been able to impeach the state's witnesses.
But most importantly, the defense neglected to even consult with
a fire expert.
Speaker 5 (15:42):
One thing that stood out to me immediately was that
only one expert testified, and that expert was the government's expert,
Captain McNulty, who's now retired, who arrived at the scene
hours after the fire, testified on behalf of the prosecution,
but no defense expert testified to poke holes in what
turned out to be a really faulty analysis.
Speaker 1 (16:04):
McNulty testified that no smoky materials were found near the couch,
but oddly no photographic evidence was shared with the defense
nor offered to the jury to corroborate that claim. McNulty
also claimed that an open flame like a cigarette lighter,
was a more likely cause of the blaze, and that
it's extremely hard to get a couch to burn with
(16:26):
a cigarette. This all begs the question, are all couches
the same? Are all materials as flammable as others? Additionally,
nothing was offered to rule out a smoldering cigarette or
any other possible accidental cause.
Speaker 5 (16:42):
I would say in most arson cases the defense should
at least consult an expert. But here we have two
sets of problems, and you've pointed out some of them.
We have problems with the experts testimony, even knowing what
the defense and the prosecution knew at the time of trial,
what was presented and unchallenged. And then we have things
(17:03):
that we discovered in our investigation later on that blew
this wide open.
Speaker 1 (17:08):
And we'll get to all that they hid from the
defense and in just a bit. But still trial counsel
failed to use what was available to him to discredit
the state's case, not only lay witnesses but also their expert.
Even the jury was curious enough to ask for the
transcript of McNulty's testimony and other documents as they were
(17:28):
deadlocked for some time. But ultimately Dwayne was convicted on
one count of oursen, one count second degree murder, and
one count felony murder, resulting in a life sentence without
the possibility of parole.
Speaker 4 (17:41):
At that moment, cross family members, we're making faces at
me like a little kid is like you stick your
tongue out like that. They kept doing stuff like that
to me. And what really bothered me about that word
that you just said in this court room and got my.
Speaker 3 (17:56):
Whole life took for me. And now you back there
doing that. You think this is the game.
Speaker 4 (18:16):
I think that until you're in a real serious situation.
Maybe people think the appeal process works. There's all these
mechanisms in the system that look like they work until
you the.
Speaker 3 (18:28):
Guy stuck in the system trying to use them.
Speaker 4 (18:31):
As time goes on and you watch people who you
know in they file briefs and you know that they
should have won and they got shot down, it's hard
to keep hoping. So going through the process, I was
disappointed things were getting shot down, and at some point
I decided that I can comprehend things, I can read well.
(18:52):
I decided I better do my own thing can work,
because at least if I stay in prison, it's my fault.
I can live with that.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
After Dwayne's direct appeal, as that died up through the
State Supreme Court as well as on federal habeas. He
began writing to anyone who might be able to help,
which included the newly formed Wayne County Conviction Integrity Unit.
This is how an guaranted the Kooley Innocence Project got involved.
Speaker 6 (19:16):
The Cooley Innocence Project has a partnership with the Wayne
County Conviction Integrity and Cooley is primarily a DNA and
forensic clinic. And in twenty twenty his case was referred
to our office here at Cooley. A very sharp student
came across Dwayne's file and brought it to our attention
(19:39):
and said, something is very wrong with this man's conviction.
And the student and the staff attorney went to visit
Dwayne and introduced themselves.
Speaker 1 (19:48):
And then Dwayne's outreach also scored him help with the
Michigan Appellate Defender's office. In twenty twenty one, I.
Speaker 5 (19:54):
Ended up on the case kind of through dumb luck.
Dwayne had filed a request for and on post judgment
motions like this one. It's very rare at that stage
of the proceedings to get counsel appointed, but it happened
that way, and it was exciting to me to work
on a case with actual innocence issues, and by the
(20:15):
time I came on the scene, he had already done
so much research, so much writing, so much communication with Cooley,
so he had set up the case really nicely. Shortly
after we were appointed, we started peppering different law enforcement
agencies with requests for records, documents, police reports, photos, and
there are two big things that came out of our
(20:35):
first and most important for your request. One was a
version of the fire investigator's report that had not previously
been disclosed to the defense. At the time of trial.
Dwayne's trial council had a version of the fire investigator
report that had most all of the information in it,
but one very important fact was missing from that report,
(20:56):
and when you look at the two side by side,
it almost looks as if a piece of the report
has been cut out, not exactly like white out, but
almost like xcized from the version that we ultimately obtained,
and that line stated that a Zippo style lighter was
found in the debris near the area of origin, which
(21:16):
was near a couch that had been consumed by the fire,
but that was where the fire investigator thought the fire
had originated.
Speaker 1 (21:23):
Which is obviously a Brady violation. It's also interesting that
the same fire investigator even eschewed a smoldering cigarette as
a less likely option to a lighter like the one
removed from that report.
Speaker 5 (21:37):
So we discovered that there was this additional version of
the report. We also discovered that there were fifty eight
photos that had never been given to the defense, and
in those photos you could see the Zippo style lighter
that was indeed at the area of origin. So this
mattered because the defense theory at trial and our theory
now is that the fire was caused by careless smoking.
(21:57):
It was an accident. There were people in the house
who were known to smoke in the house, and one
of the people who sadly died was known to smoke
on the couch that was the area of origin. When
the fire investigator tells the jury that there are no
smoking materials at the scene, that really discredits the defense theory.
But in fact, there was a smoking material. A lighter
is a smoking material, and so that was something that
(22:19):
was major and that, as I said before, really blew
the case wide open for.
Speaker 1 (22:23):
A lot of us listening tonight. The idea of purposely
excising something that pivotal feels illegal, if not highly unethical.
Speaker 5 (22:36):
It is illegal and unethical. I do not know who
did it, and I do not know if it was
done purposefully. I have to be totally honest with you.
I think we can all imagine what may or may
not have happened. But at this point, all I can
tell you is that it's in one version and it's
not in another, and both of those reports, what I
(22:56):
call the original and then the redacted or excised version,
we're both in the prosecutor's possession at the time of trial.
Speaker 1 (23:03):
This also leads naturally to another question. If there is
this zippo lighter in the photograph, what happened to the
physical object.
Speaker 5 (23:12):
Well, we know that the prosecution could not locate it
during the course of our investigation years after trial, and
there's no record of it ever having been collected and
kept or tested or anything that should have happened. Our
expert Mark Fennell talked with us about the importance of
in a case like this, collecting any smoking materials, any
(23:33):
implements that could have been used to start a fire,
and then testing them to determine whether they actually had
the capability of starting the fire. So, unfortunately that was
not done. No one has come forward with the lighter,
not the Detroit Police Department, not the Wayne County Prosecutor's office.
So to our knowledge, their lighter does not exist, and
it was never collected and certainly was not tested.
Speaker 3 (23:55):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (23:56):
And Mark Fennell also called into question and some of
the earlier statements by Captain McNulty, especially the idea of
flammability of couches and cigarettes, and something I thought a
lot of people would have already clocked. Not all couches
are made of the same material. I mean, some stuff
(24:18):
is more flammable than other stuff, right.
Speaker 5 (24:20):
That's absolutely right. That's something that unfortunately the jury did
not hear at the original trial, and I wish they
had because Mark Fennell even provided us with a video
that to this day lives rent free in my mind,
because it shows just how quickly many of the couches
that we may have in our homes could combust and
could start an absolutely disastrous fire. So it's true that
(24:44):
it's difficult to light a leather couch on fire, but
the evidence that we have suggests that the couch that
was consumed in the fire here was not leather. It
was a more polyester type of couch. That is more
easy to light on fire. For Captain McNulty to testify
that it's incredibly difficult to get a couch to burn
(25:04):
with a cigarette. I can't say whether he was intentionally
misleading the jury. I hope he wasn't, But in fact,
we know that the jury did not get a complete
and full picture of what went on in this fire
or what could happen in general when you hold a
cigarette to a couch or you drop, for example, a
cigarette in between couch cushions. That seems like a very
(25:28):
likely story here that mister Simms, he did have disabilities,
He was known to smoke on the couch that was
eventually the origin of the fire. It is possible that
he fell asleep and dropped a cigarette. So I just
I can tell you that, even if it wasn't intentional,
Captain McNulty definitely misled the jury into believing that the
(25:49):
couch here could not have caught on fire but for
an intentionally set fire.
Speaker 3 (25:57):
That's the lawyer answer.
Speaker 7 (25:58):
My answer, Yes, he knew what he was doing and
he did it all part.
Speaker 1 (26:13):
It's difficult to maintain faith in this investigation and these people,
especially when we see a Brady violation of this magnitude, I'm,
of course, speaking about what appears to be an altered
version of the original fire investigation report. And it becomes
even more difficult to maintain faith when you consider DeShawn Seabrooks.
Speaker 5 (26:34):
Gary Jennings said to police and testified at trial that
I got information from Deshaun and that made me contact Wayne.
What the defense was never told at the time of trial,
and what we didn't get our hands on until years
of working on the case myself, was a statement by
Deshaun Seabrooks. The Waynkenny prosecutor sent an investigator to speak
(26:55):
with DeShawn Seabrooks. Deshaun Seabrooks told the prosecutors investigator that
he did not know Gary Jennings and he did not
know about any fire supposedly involving Dwayne until law enforcement
told him about that. So not only hadn't they talked
about the fire, but that he didn't even know Gary.
Speaker 1 (27:13):
But wait, there's war.
Speaker 5 (27:15):
Yes, there was another witness who the prosecution interviewed and
whose statement was not turned over to the defense, and
his name was Ron Rogers. Now, Ron Rogers' involvement in
all of this is a little bit more attenuated, but
we can sum it up by saying that had mister
Rogers statement been turned over to the defense, the defense
(27:37):
could have chosen to either call him as a witness
or call the prosecution's investigator as a witness to discredit
some of the other lay witnesses. For example, Jackie Cross
told police that they got some of their information from
Ron Rodgers, but when Ron Rogers talked to the prosecutor's investigator,
mister Rogers said that he didn't know anything about the fire.
And so again it's a bit attenuated. But you have
(28:00):
people coming to court and testifying to things that they
say are corroborated or known by other people, and then
when the prosecution goes and talks with those other people,
they don't know anything. And unfortunately, the jury never heard that,
and the defense didn't even know about those statements or
those interviews that the prosecution's investigator did. And we submitted
(28:20):
a couple of different documents applications to the Conviction Integrity
Unit summarizing all the relevant evidence. Then they did additional investigation.
We did have Denver Butler, who was an investigator, an
independent person who was able to do additional interviews and
track down witnesses. So there was a lot of movement
from a lot of different parties on this case. But
(28:40):
ultimately the conviction Integrity Unit reviewed everything and recommended that
Dwayne be granted relief. That recommendation then goes to the
pad prosecutor in Wayne County, Kim Worthy, and she signed
off and agreed that yes, the conviction here was wrongful
and should not stand.
Speaker 1 (28:57):
So now all they needed was a court date to
file a joint motion to vacate convictions and sentences, which
happens on June seventeenth, twenty twenty four, over a decade
after Dwayne's arrest to.
Speaker 4 (29:09):
Here to just say that my sins was vacate and
the know that they finally went away after all that time,
he was really gone.
Speaker 3 (29:17):
That was something.
Speaker 4 (29:18):
Walking out the prison light five o'clock that afternoon, walking
through the metal detectors going out of the prison, and
I remember like how some of the seels were talking
to me, and I remember thinking, well, man, why didn't
they talk to me like that before? But just walking
out that gate and getting in, I was band and
(29:38):
coming to Detroit, knowing that I was coming back to Detroit,
I don't know how to describe it really.
Speaker 1 (29:45):
Now the Dwayne's out, He's been working with two nonprofits,
one called Firefly Advocates, which works toward criminal legal system
reform as well as supporting reintegration for system impact of folks,
and the second comes to us from another Michigan based
exogneri Ken Nixon. His group is called the Organization of
(30:05):
Exogneries Will Length. Thus in the episode of description. Outside
of that, Dwayne is back out there making music, meeting
other artists, and we'll link ways for you to find him.
Speaker 4 (30:15):
Uh yeah, you gotta like YouTube dio d I a
b l O white mess and I just posted on
my Facebook for the first time since I've been out.
I started recording. So it's like a little snippet or something.
Rest It's like they didn't killed. I was probably you
had a station through a cloud for the lives. Hey,
get the yard, I was robbing. Even call me with
(30:36):
a knife. I'm mother the police and your muss I
got thirty red. That's a lifetime. I'm innocent. Plus I
could read plus get the little library reading. K's out
the Kate, tell them here, stay the fuck up my face.
Get respected on the yard because I'm fighting it straight.
The hunt they seem to getting first, I'm getting closer,
but closer. Zum mee to turn the weeks man, the
shit gonna be yo.
Speaker 3 (30:55):
Touchdown with the pics. You might see me your round high. Yes,
I'm easy to miss.
Speaker 4 (31:00):
Out of town house.
Speaker 3 (31:01):
We probably meet you still, Holly.
Speaker 4 (31:04):
Who is a'm good and never hood in this dating
the rapper And that was let them do what I
call him the mouth hit the make a couple of times,
put a.
Speaker 3 (31:10):
Couple hounded out for self.
Speaker 4 (31:13):
It's kind of interested what I'm talking about, the wrong
for QB. So I just did that this born.
Speaker 1 (31:18):
We wish ed Wayne all the luck in the world.
And with that we come to the last segment of
the show, where first I'd like to thank you all
for joining us today. Then I'll open the space for
our guests to share and enclosing thoughts they might have.
Why don't we go in alphabetical order, so we'll start
with Ann, then Maya, and last but not least, we
(31:38):
leave it to Dwayne.
Speaker 6 (31:39):
Dwayne's case is a case that never should have happened,
A crime wasn't committed. I think that society has this
false sense that it's a justice system. Look at all
the people that were impacted by Dwayne's case, including Dwayne,
his family, society, and it takes an absurd amount of time.
(32:04):
I always tell people it's like unringing a bell. It's
very easy in theory to put someone into this situation,
but it takes a miracle to get someone out of
this situation. Without the state of Pelot Defender Office and
with our collaboration with the Wayne County Conviction Integrity Unit,
in having conviction integrity units and the determination and the
(32:27):
persistence of the director Beal Newman, I'm not sure that
we would be having this discussion right now. And Dwayne's story,
sadly is not unique. If people knew that this was
happening in their own communities and how it impacts everybody
from an emotional standpoint, from a financial standpoint. That's the
(32:50):
big thing that I push all the time is the
education of wrongful convictions.
Speaker 5 (32:55):
I would also note that at the time of Dwayne's trial,
he was represented by appointed council and I happen to
know the attorney who represented him, and he does a
lot of really great work. So this is not to
slander him or to suggest that he's a bad lawyer.
But I will say that the system, particularly at the
time Duane was facing trial in twenty twelve and twenty thirteen,
(33:19):
the provision of counsel to indigent people, people who are
facing charges as serious as the ones Duane was facing,
was not good at all, and there have been lots
of improvements in Michigan since then, but I do know
that in other states there are similar problems that still
occur where people are not provided a lawyer who has
(33:40):
the capacity and time to assist them properly, who has
the funding requisite to hire an investigator or an expert,
both of which in my view, should have been done
in this case. So I would just point out that
there are systemic issues that led to some of the
problems here, and as I mentioned, if we were appointed
by really a fluke, and so the fact that Dwayne
(34:02):
got counsel on appeal or on a secondary appeal was
also pretty unusual, and it's still unusual today. So I
would just say that I do think there are lots
and lots of people who are inside prison, serving time
sometimes life sentences for crimes they did not commit, but
they don't have lawyers to assist them.
Speaker 3 (34:20):
Just really did take a team.
Speaker 4 (34:22):
And that's one of the things that God's Christy said
to me before I left. I don't have what you had,
but God put all of these things in place and
all of these people in place to help me. And
I really realized now how hard it is and how
blessed I really am. So I'm going to use the
words a kind Nixon, the president of the Organization of
Exigner rees Ken always se is it starts with voting.
(34:45):
A prosecutor is a powerful position and they answer to
the people in all your choices. When you vote, you
need to really be careful and pay attention. It's important
in education learning this system. I think they sad teachers.
It's mid Love's favorite four fifth sixth amen in school.
Bestally in areas where you might be more likely to
(35:08):
have legal problems, because when you don't know anything, anything
can happen to you.
Speaker 2 (35:19):
Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. You can listen
to this and all the Lava for Good podcasts one
week early and ad free by subscribing to Lava for
Good Plus on Apple Podcasts. I want to thank our
production team, Connor Hall and Kathleen Fink as well as
my fellow executive producers Jeff Kempler, Kevin Wartis, and Jeff Cliber.
The music in this production was supplied by three time
(35:39):
OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us
across all social media platforms at Lava for Good and
at Wrongful Conviction. You can also follow me on Instagram
at It's Jason Flamm. Wrongful Conviction is the production of
Lava for Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company Number One.
We've worked hard to ensure that all facts reported in
this show are accurate. The views and opinions expressed by
(36:00):
the individuals featured in this show are their own and
do not necessarily reflect those of Lava for Good.
Hosts And Creators
Lauren Bright Pacheco
Maggie Freleng
Jason Flom
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