January 23, 2025 • 38 mins
Jason and Abu are joined by Haitch and Jason from Escape Hatch (formerly DunePod) to break down the first season of the divisive Dune: Prophecy on HBO.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Warning, today's episode could date spoilers for the first season
of Dune Prophecy on HBO, and of course the wider
Dude Cannon be warned.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Hello, Jason Concepcio and I'm a busafar.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
And welcome back to x ray Vision, the podcast where
we dive deep, deeper than a sad word. It's your
favorite shows, movies, comics of pop culture coming to you
from our podcast will Ward bring you three episodes a
week every Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
In today's episode, we are joined once again by Jason
and h from Escape Patch formerly known as Dune Pod
to talk about Dune Prophecy season one in its entirety.
Thank you guys for joining us. Lovely to have you back.
Speaker 4 (00:53):
It's a delight, thank you for having us back to
talk about this very important piece of pop culture.
Speaker 5 (01:00):
Dive right into it. Can we just take a minute
and give a shout out to the goat and say
rest in power our Dune King David Lynch.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
Yeah, yeah, great, even with even with all the changes,
an absolutely unique vision that I think is stands on
its own as a just an incredible imagining of that
world and some of the things honestly like the navigators
(01:30):
feel like that's what they should look like.
Speaker 6 (01:33):
Yeah, I think that's right.
Speaker 4 (01:34):
I think I think he defined parts of the Dune
universe straight out of his imagining. That made it more
vivid than even what's in the book. Even though the
movie is beloved by bayouts, I'm getting choked up. No,
even though the movie is beloved, it was a failure.
But still his imprint on the Dune universe is eternal,
(01:58):
and these just a tremend this visionary director.
Speaker 6 (02:01):
So we will miss him.
Speaker 5 (02:02):
Yeah, I love you, David.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
Well, let's so, guys, season one of Dune Prophecy in
the books. Yes, we expect to season two. I think
we should. You know, season two will be coming. Our
thoughts now that this has we have finished six episodes,
not a tremendous amount of runway to get a story
(02:25):
off the ground. Certainly a story is sprawling and interwoven,
as this one is spanning multiple time frames, the past,
the president in some of the future. Your thoughts on
season one, Well.
Speaker 5 (02:38):
So we were you know, we were a little nervous
about the show. We were excited because we want more
stories and we want to get we want to get
into the world. But Obviously, we were nervous that it
was not based on some of Frank's works. Jason and
I have not read unlike Abou, you know, we're only
lightweight Dune fans. We have not read all the Brian
Herbert books. And then it had a very troubled production,
(03:02):
right with the original showrunner getting fired and then the
guy from Chernobyl coming in.
Speaker 2 (03:06):
We're like, yes, this is gonna be incredible.
Speaker 5 (03:08):
Then he leaves, and so it's we were sort of
a little skeptical. There were some real highlights the production
design and the costumes and the sets and seeing some
of the stuff was really amazing, and some of the
performances were really really incredible, especially with the younger cast members.
But then there were just also some misses, which I
am sure we are going to get into in this discussion.
(03:30):
Just some of the feeling unanchored, and I think it's
largely related to the way that they laid it out
time wise, starting in the present, jumping back to the
bast and so that for me was something that made
it a little harder to grab hold up to the series.
Speaker 4 (03:46):
Yeah, I think to build on that, my take is
is maybe a little briefer which is just it's not
that good.
Speaker 6 (03:53):
Like the show is just not that good.
Speaker 4 (03:56):
Like it's got some huge head. We have a podcast
that was formly called Dune, And like my repeated feeling
when watching this is like if I am bored by
this show, who is this show for?
Speaker 6 (04:09):
Whom is this show?
Speaker 4 (04:11):
Because like, you know, it's just it wasn't there There
are bones there, there are great performances, great actors, great
production design, high production values.
Speaker 6 (04:22):
The actual writing of.
Speaker 4 (04:23):
The show is just very clunky and not that good.
There's they've kind of got Denny Villeneuve's Dune, like all
of the grandiosity of that property stuffed into kind of
a like you know, see Tier Star Trek the Next
Generation episode and like that's and that's just kind of
that's just kind of a bummer. So I hope in
(04:45):
season two they just kind of figure out how.
Speaker 6 (04:47):
To write better. I guess.
Speaker 4 (04:49):
I mean, I'm like, you know, how to make it
just a tighter show with less expository theater and like
more focused on one story and and just have it
be a bit tighter.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
Aaboo your thoughts.
Speaker 3 (05:00):
You know, I would echo that sentiment as well. I
also wasn't the biggest fan of the show. It didn't
land with me, and as a Dune super fan, I
found a number of things disappointing. I will say there
was a lot of Dune lore in the show, which
was nice, that was fun. But I think to Jason's point,
the storytelling, the writing is where it fell short for me,
(05:25):
and six episodes just wasn't enough time to tell the stories,
the multiple stories, multiple plot threads, multiple character arcs that
they were trying to cram into six hour long episodes.
Episode six I think was actually even ninety minutes and
still not enough time to get the characters and story
(05:46):
moving towards satisfying not just conclusions, but towards satisfying moments
as well. You know, parts felt rushed, A lot of
stuff was assumed to happen off screen, a lot of
character development happening off screen. It was disappointed, and for
what it's worth, I think, like living in the shadow
of a Danny villenef masterpiece is a very.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
Difficult place to live in.
Speaker 3 (06:06):
Yes, and so to be given the directive that here's
the master work upon which you are making the show,
make it just as good that is that is a
tall order. And so I do feel for the fine
folks at HBO who were given that order and did
their best to live up to it and in some
ways did in other ways I think fell quite tragically short.
Speaker 1 (06:31):
My take very similar to all of yours. I think
it was I watched episode one and thought, okay, a
little bit of a mess, but there's good. I feel
like there's something in there, there's bones in there that
can emerge. And then really it didn't start turning back
(06:52):
towards that those glimmers of optimism until maybe episode five
and parts of episode six. It felt, you know, another
red flag is in episode two there's like a long
sex scene. I think I said this on a previous episode,
like listen, like I'm steeped in Game of Thrones. Love
(07:13):
a good sex position scene, but I feel like if
you're switching positions, it's too long. Any sex scene where
there's multiple where you're going through multiple rounds of different techniques,
but it's probably you know, we could cut this fat.
And I feel like that to me is if there's
(07:33):
a if there's a way forward for season two, it's less.
We don't less stuff. And so maybe now that they've
established what the show is, what the basic story is,
this kind of illicit dabbling in illegal technologies and the
effects they have on Imperial society and people being still
(07:58):
lured to this stuff for the for the feeling it
gives people, for you know, the boost it gives the economy.
That's all kind of fun. But we can jettison a
lot of hopefully the flashbacks. We're already ten thousand years
in the past. I felt like the guy flash why
(08:19):
back twelve years?
Speaker 2 (08:23):
Like ten twelve really important year? You gotta this.
Speaker 5 (08:29):
Was my This was my biggest problem with the show, right,
Like the whole structure of the show was based on
the fact that they wanted the Desmond reveal to.
Speaker 6 (08:36):
Rock everyone to our core.
Speaker 5 (08:37):
Yeah, and it's this classic thing of Hollywood over indexing
on surprise. If the show had started with young Valua
and young Tula and showed them coming up together, spend
three three episodes with them just like you know, Ryan
did it amazingly somehow on House of the Dragon. He
pulled it off. It's not easy, but doing the flashbacks
(08:58):
for episode three we a that an acolyte. It doesn't work.
You do not end up connected to the characters.
Speaker 4 (09:04):
Yeah, and it's also especially because like young Volley is
a great like I love that actress. I thought she
was a really great actress. And the scenes, yeah, the
young the young counterparts were great, and the scenes in
which they're just murking people at like House of the
Benny Jesuit is it was was was really exciting, like
it was was really really fun, but like you know,
(09:25):
it just kind of comes too late. I think the
way I would have redone this, given that they were
only given six episodes, which is difficult to cram all
this in, I would have just trimmed off anything that
wasn't volume on Tula related. I think any of the
scenes with like the kids, all the stuff at the bar,
the rebel bar, the only bars, the only bars, like
(09:49):
all of that stuff would have just trimmed away and
just focus it on this hearkening story and it would
have been much more compelling.
Speaker 5 (09:57):
By the way nobody thought to empty the bar of
like the ten.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
Was there.
Speaker 6 (10:05):
The rebellion is very sloppy.
Speaker 3 (10:07):
Guys, Why is your spice just upstairs?
Speaker 5 (10:10):
Open?
Speaker 3 (10:14):
Sister MICHAELA, Why are your robes hidden in the same
place as Karen lock your locker?
Speaker 4 (10:24):
Yes, this is like this is how like my wife
always knows when I've been in the kitchen because all
the kitchen cabinets are open and all the cover doors
are all the covered doors are ajar, And it's just like,
like Karen has this problem bad, Like he comes back
from his secret bombing mission is just leaving the.
Speaker 6 (10:43):
Bombs, like out On doesn't put anything else. Someone will,
Someone will spruce that up.
Speaker 2 (10:49):
Not a problem, Jason.
Speaker 3 (11:10):
You said this, Uh, when I think we talked about
episode four, Jason Concepcion, You and I were doing that episode,
and you said something that just stuck in my mind
about this show and hasn't left.
Speaker 2 (11:19):
It feels like so many of the.
Speaker 3 (11:20):
Characters, perhaps outside of Volley and Tula, are passengers in
their own story. Things are happening because the play requires
them to happen so that the next plot point can
happen next, And the characters are just reacting to things
happening to them. And you said that, And I can't
stop thinking about it, and I can't stop seeing it
even in episode.
Speaker 1 (11:41):
Poor Mark Strong playing Mark.
Speaker 6 (11:48):
Mark.
Speaker 4 (11:49):
Mark Strong needs to listen to that Zuck Rogan interview
and reclaim the masculine.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
Think about we put.
Speaker 6 (11:58):
A little bit of more land in this.
Speaker 4 (12:02):
He needs to get a gold chain and go bow
hunting and cook his own meat that hunt.
Speaker 1 (12:06):
I mean, you know what, that's a good it's a
good point, h because I think the emperor is interesting.
I liked initially as we talked about it, BOO. I
liked the idea of exploring this really interesting uh governmental
system that they have, which kind of requires a weak emperor,
right because he's really a mediator between these very powerful families.
(12:29):
He's not supposed to be like he's more of like
the commissioner of the NBA than he is like an emperor.
He works for these families. Yeah, and so I thought
that was I thought that that could be really interesting
and there were interesting moments to it. But the issue
is when you only set up like one point of
conflict between the ri Chesy family. He needs their ships,
(12:51):
you know, then it doesn't feel complex enough. It just
feels like this one guy like has something over him,
and it results in this feeling of this guy is
just a drip, like I thought he was the emperor.
He hasn't sure juice whatsoever, and it makes it feel
less lived in and it I just wish they would
(13:12):
have picked to me, it's like pick Awayane. If you're
gonna go with the the imperial politics angle, which I
think is wonderful and rich, just dive headfirst into that
and kind of ignore the rest of this stuff. If
you're going to dive into the effects of nanotechnology and
the and the development of the Benny Jesre It's control
over the imperial households in the Landslard, then just kind
(13:33):
of dive into that and ignore everything else. And I think, Jason,
Jason G You're right that what needs to happen is
just pick alaye.
Speaker 4 (13:43):
You know, And this brings I think your point. I
think your point is exactly right, and it brings up
two things. Very First of all, I would really need
to see Adam Silver in a house Corrino uniform because.
Speaker 6 (13:55):
Indistinguishable from what we got on screen. And thing two.
Speaker 4 (13:59):
Like like he's such a weak emperor. It also undercuts
the whole rebellion storyline because it's like, what are you
rebelling against?
Speaker 6 (14:06):
Like this horrible, this horrible tyrant who can't even run
his family? Like what is that? What is that? Like
what's actually good? What's actually gone?
Speaker 4 (14:14):
You should just like, you know, all these people are
completely weak, Like it's obviously a weak environment, like you
don't need to like bomb the house, the House of
the Emperor. You could find other ways to achieve whatever
your goals are here. And so it's just it's just
deeply unsatisfying all that stuff. But the stuff that is,
the stuff that is the house Hearkening story, the Valley
(14:35):
of Toula story is very interesting. I think A general
problem I found too, is that the show is just
a little too literal, Like it just takes like a
very like and the best example of this for me
is the the Fears of the Mind Killer thing. One second,
everyone in my house is sick, so I'm trying not
to I'm trying to use my own litiny against fear
to keep myself well. But like you know, the liney
(14:57):
the linear against fear is one of the most remarkable
pieces of writing in all of science fiction. I really
believe it's it's an amazing prayer that Herbert creates, and
they take this very interesting thing and make it this
completely literal artifact where it's like, oh, this is a
virus that feeds on fear.
Speaker 6 (15:16):
You have to just not be afraid of it. I'm like,
come like that. It's just so heavy. It's so heavy
handed and literal.
Speaker 4 (15:22):
It's like, you know, it's the equivalent of when, if
you know, Luke was being talked to on the on
the on the Death Star run and Obi Wan says that,
you know, use the force, Luke, and Luke was like,
oh right, you know, force equals mass times acceleration. I
must excrease the speed of my x wing to you know,
to to drive more. Force just makes this very literal
argument out of this, you know, kind of transcendent science
(15:45):
fiction concept.
Speaker 6 (15:46):
I found it just very tedious.
Speaker 5 (15:48):
Luke, listen to your Midi Chlorians.
Speaker 4 (15:51):
Yeah exactly, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 (15:55):
So, I mean, I I'd love to get your opinion
on this because I think to me, one of the
most to me, a huge stumbling block for enjoyment of
the story was I kind of felt like they went
back ten thousand years, but they didn't make the organizations
(16:17):
that they are portraying seem as if they were at
different early evolution their infancy. They're not called the Benny jesureit,
but that's all like the everything else their role. They're
already they're already placing people with lands, read families. They're
already standing to the right side of the Emperor whispering
in his ear. I think it would have been much
(16:40):
more interesting to see them like pitching that, getting into
those you know, families, forging those relationships. How do they
Is that an issue for y'all? And what do they do?
Could they you know, this is television. You could just
ignore it. We could just ignore that that's what they
did in season one and just start again. But what
(17:02):
can they do? And is that a problem? Is that?
Is that similarly an issue for y'all?
Speaker 5 (17:06):
I mean, in general, there's not enough subtlety in what's
happening right like's they're supposed to be maneuvering everything from
the shadows. And you do have that great moment in
episode six where they anerel the computer helps them pick,
and that's very cool where they're selecting.
Speaker 1 (17:20):
That was really cool.
Speaker 5 (17:22):
Yeah, But once they're like in there, they're just like
standing there making their motions and like like they're executing
their plans in full view of like the lancearrat and
stuff going on. It's it's like it's not very subtle.
And then you also have this challenge of this giant schism,
which I think is Jason. What they're trying to do here,
to show that there's this massive schism, and that's what's
going to really be the challenge for the Benajeesa. But
(17:44):
who are we rooting for? Like, are we looking for
these religious fundamentalists or are we rooting for this psychotic
murderer value Harken. It's hard for us to have a
dog in this fight.
Speaker 4 (17:57):
Yeah, there's not really a protagonist in this show because
like there's like, you know, I there shows like Succession
where there's you know, you don't really like anyone, You're
not really supposed to like anyone, but like you have
sort of an affinity for certain characters because of their
quirks or whatever. But everyone's a bad person. This show
doesn't can't be it can't work on that level. Like
it can't work where you know, it's very difficult to
(18:19):
introduce a cousin Greg like in this in this show
where you just like which I guess is I guess
it's yes, Yeah, but it's so I guess I'm root
for him by default.
Speaker 5 (18:31):
But yeah, I think it is a big problem for me.
Speaker 4 (18:35):
That the show doesn't have any distinguishing culture from being
set ten thousand years ago. This is a criticism that
also is leveled against House of the Dragon. Sure, it's like, oh,
the show is like, you know, so long ago, but
it's not that different. It's not that long ago in
House of the Dragon. Thing one thing two, that's a
medieval show, and so like history like sort of like
(18:56):
stays static for longer, and think three. Actually they're doing
interesting things and House to the Dragon with language and
how it's written, and it does use a slightly more
archaic syntax at certain times, which gives this kind of
feeling of it being like differently old timey than Game
of Thrones Prime.
Speaker 6 (19:12):
There's none of that in this. They're wearing literally the.
Speaker 4 (19:14):
Same outfits that they're wearing in the Villain of movie,
just like ten thousand, just ten thousand years ago, like
nothing has moved, and I find that a little problematic.
Speaker 6 (19:24):
There's there's there's reasons.
Speaker 4 (19:25):
That real duneheads could point to about why like it
because society stays that static, and Herbert has a lot
to say about the staticness of society and what needs
to cause great change. I don't really think that's what
they're playing with here. I think they're just kind of saying,
we have production design already in the books, We're just
gonna run it, And I find that disappointing.
Speaker 3 (19:47):
Yeah, and I think that speaks to the guys Villanov's
shotow go for it. Yeah, I mean to the lower question,
You're absolutely right, Jason, Like, yes, stagnation is a is
a key theme throughout the Dune books, and it's specifically
technical stagnation. Because of the jihad and the war against machines,
a lot of technology kind of grinds to a halt,
(20:08):
and thus you see the evolution of biology, sisters with capabilities,
mentats doing computations, etc.
Speaker 6 (20:16):
Etc.
Speaker 3 (20:17):
You know, navigators flying ships instead of computers, flying ships
through space, that sort of thing. So these these groups
and their abilities is a direct response to the loss
of tech because of this great war that almost wiped
out humanity against machines. But I also agree that, like
ten thousand years is also a long time, So for
(20:37):
the status quo to be so similar to what we
saw in the Ville Nutt films and in the Frank
books is a little bit disappointing for what it's worth,
Like the source material they're working off of the Brian
Herbert books commits the same sin And like this, I
think This is just like a bit of a prequelitis problem,
Like a lot of prequels commit the sin of not
being different enough. But I think this show, like again,
(20:59):
lived on the under the very tall shadow of the
ville Neuve films, and they had to make it look
like the ville Neve movies, you know.
Speaker 5 (21:07):
But also almost everybody seems to have thinking machines, which
is a little weird, you know, like the jihad is over,
but everyone secretly has one that seems like a that
seems like a problem.
Speaker 3 (21:18):
Yeah, And another issue that I kind of had with
this season was the the fact that again this is
maybe a six episode problem, but the fact that it's
asking us to wait for future seasons to get more,
you know, like a lot of these ideas, like what's
happening with the Sisterhood will we're introducing a schism over
six episodes tbd, Like what happens next is up to
(21:41):
future sea, Like a lot of this first season relies
on a second season that you know, up until recently,
we didn't know what's confirmed. Now we know it's confirmed,
so maybe we will get resolution to some you know,
the dozen or so plot threads we've just left dangling
at the end of episode six. But I think for me,
like that is an unsatisfying way to watch a season
(22:02):
of television. Like you compare that to something like Severance,
and you're like, Okay, I could just watch season one
and walk away and never watch season two and still
be like, Wow, what a great story I was told.
I don't think Prophecy achieved that.
Speaker 5 (22:32):
Can we talk about Desmond and like our entire journey
for Desmond, which is the central mystery, the entire thing,
and we go from blue eyes at a distance to
blue eyes slightly closer and a shadowy figure off to
the side, so we've got a thinking machine and a
shot like that was no satisfaction.
Speaker 4 (22:52):
Well, and like the the fact that it's just like
he's he's able to combust people because there's a nanovirus
in his eye is just like like all right, I
guess like if that's what you're going for, like you know,
I mean, it's just like it's a it's a very
wikipedia answer to a mystery, which is just like, you know,
it is cool, like I mean, because you know, he's
(23:13):
a great actor. It's a compelling performance. He's doing freaky
things with his face, like he leaves right back like
there's cool bits in there. And then for it's like, oh,
I've dissected the brain and there's fear and the robots
came and gave you know, it's like, oh God, like
you're just just say less, like don't tell me anything,
like just like keep it a mystery, like don't don't don't.
Just make it this very literal, very factual. There is
(23:37):
a nanovirus. It is triggered by his eye. The eye
was put there by a robot. And now a character
will say all this on screen. It's that's real tough.
That's that's really tough to watch.
Speaker 1 (23:47):
I will say, I think that there is a road
to make all of this feel much more propulsive and
character driven, if you know, there's just something really interesting
about it. Or organization that has built itself on the
idea that they give the best advice in the galaxy.
They know when people are lying, but secretly it's all
(24:11):
chat GBT like that is that is giving, Like that's cool,
that's funny. The idea that that could be found out
by the Emperor or anybody else that they're trying to
get on their you know, as technicians of whatever. This uh,
this sentient AI is telling them to do that. They're
(24:32):
still getting up to speed with how to how to
give this advice in the way that they're being advised
to do. I think all of that is interesting, and
maybe there's a way that they can drill down on
that as a as a as a point of conflict,
you know, because you know, we've built up this illicit
trade in technology is as one of the main drivers
of story here. How about plugging that into the character
(24:55):
and make it something, make it a make it it's
it is ostensible a secret, but it's one that we
don't feel as like under any kind of threat. How
about we put that secret under threats absolutely.
Speaker 5 (25:08):
With Aniro busted by Lilah, Like, is it backed up
to Azure? Yeah?
Speaker 6 (25:13):
Yeah, they got they got, they gotta, they gotta. They
got a version on a hard.
Speaker 4 (25:18):
Disk somewhere they could repoot from. Okay, I And I mean,
so they're gonna go to Aracus like a version of
this that would be kind of compelling and also work
for lower reasons. Is that you know, we know that
the Benny Jazerich go to Aracus at some point in
time and see the missionary of Productiva, this his you know,
this this this lisan Algay myth that a messiah will
come and liberate the freemen. We know the Freemen exist
(25:39):
at this time already on Oracus. It would be interesting if,
like Valia's machinations on Oracus in this time and she
tries to figure out what went on with Desmond actually
end up seeding that that religion as well, if like
the entire religion of the Freemen was chat ept in
some sense, right, They're like, oh, we got to manipulate
these people. It's like our anrel's like tell them about
(26:00):
the Messaiah, you know, and like gave them, you know,
gave them something, you know, gave them something like that.
That could be that could be fun. I like this
idea that like there's that this this society is driven
against technology, but in the background, the technology is actually
pulling the string still.
Speaker 6 (26:20):
And like it could still be the case, like in
the universe that we know later that that was true.
Speaker 5 (26:25):
That that actually shocked me, right, like that that idea
that they had a thinking machine like that. I had
never considered that for the Bena Jezerit, so I actually
thought that was one unique and cool idea.
Speaker 1 (26:35):
Yeah, then that is lore correct, right boot.
Speaker 3 (26:38):
That is more accurate even as far as Frank Kurbert's
books go, because when books, I.
Speaker 5 (26:42):
Don't think I realized that where was that discussed?
Speaker 6 (26:44):
In the end.
Speaker 3 (26:44):
It is a single line in a very dense and
convoluted book called Heretics of Dune, which is the fifth
book series. There's a single reference to the Benny Jesuit
secretly have had computers this whole time, and I've been
breaking the rules this whole time.
Speaker 1 (26:57):
Oh interesting, I honestly love it. Here's my refined elevator
pitch for HBO Max doing Prophecy season two.
Speaker 3 (27:05):
Ready, let's hear it.
Speaker 1 (27:08):
The war against the computers has been one, or has it?
There is a surviving AI, and this group, the Sisterhood,
believes that they have this genie in a bottle. They're
pulling on the string. They're completely in control. They're getting
the information they need so they can build up there
their organization and take control of the galaxy. But what
if this AI is, as a survivor of the old times,
(27:32):
is plotting to rebuild itself, and it's got its twins
somewhere on Iracus also plotting in conjunction with it. And
now you've got value having to make a choice one
building up an organization while two keeping this genie in
its fucking bottle.
Speaker 6 (27:51):
Mm hmmm, it's good. Colossus the Value Project. I love it.
That's a banger. Let's go. I really like it. I
like this idea.
Speaker 4 (28:02):
And again, I would just start with a page that
says Volia and Tula, what are they doing this season?
Speaker 6 (28:08):
And that should be eighty to ninety percent of what
they're doing.
Speaker 4 (28:11):
And if it's working against the AI, great, if it's
like trying to figure out the mystery and racis great.
But I would I would center just so much of
the story on that. I don't need to see any
more Carinos. I don't know what they're doing. I don't it,
just like none of it matters. None of it mattered,
like the princess escaping because of the face dancer. All
that nonsense was completely I can't believe that anyone wrote
(28:31):
that on a page and like someone agreed to go
shoot it.
Speaker 6 (28:34):
It's like no one stopped as why does this matter
at all? It doesn't.
Speaker 4 (28:38):
It didn't matter, and so they could just scrap all
of that and focus on this much more directed story
that is about Valia and Tula and the AI that
they've got to try to figure out is it they
are they controlling it and using it for their ads
or is it still actually in control.
Speaker 6 (28:52):
I love that story.
Speaker 5 (28:54):
They should make decisions that make sense, though, right, like
instead of being in service to the environs a plot,
Yeah right, saying I'm going to operate from the shadows,
so I'll go to the center of the universe, the
most important planet, and that's where I'm hide. It's like, well,
I don't know about that. That doesn't quite make sense.
Speaker 1 (29:12):
As the as the low Master, m h. What would
you like to see and what would you say to
the producers of A of A season two of doing
Prophecy just as a as a north Star as a
load star for them?
Speaker 3 (29:28):
Sure? Yeah, Well before I say that, I do want
to say, as much as I love your Elevator pitch, Jason,
the books don't treat it that way, and if they
continue to work off the Brian Herbert source material, unlikely
that we will get. I actually think andrewl is like
dead dead. There are no backups on any hard drives
(29:48):
or any A W S servers out there, and what
we're going to see now is a dorite of Volia's
schism within the Sisterhood, which is which is kind of
where the books go. Where what I want to see
season two go. I agree with what y'all have said,
like pick a lane. First of all, Tula and Balia
are very much your strongest characters. And for what it's worth,
(30:11):
the showrunner Alison Chapter has said, Tula and Bali are
the heart of this show. I didn't feel that this season.
I want to feel that next season. I want I
want them to be the actual heart of this show,
to spend the most time with them and their decision
making and the challenges that they're facing. I think what
I would like for this show to do in a
second season is to focus less on lore, which I
(30:35):
felt like this first season was really mired in. You know,
we got to explain to Jason to your point about
everything being literal. You know, we got to explain this,
We got to show you the origins of that. We
gotta blah blah blah. You know, let's throw in an
Easter egg about the Xian's and let's have a face
dancer in here, which well, you know, don't worry about it.
That will matter later in a future season, there's a
(30:55):
lot of sort of I hesitate to call it fan
service because I know we have this group has thoughts
on fan service that maybe we don't all agree on,
but like it felt like very heavy handed fan service
for people like me, and I didn't need that. What
I needed was for an excellent story, a well written story,
and a compelling story, which I didn't think I got
in season two. I would like for the story to
(31:16):
focus on themes and themes that matter to the Dune universe,
to your point, Chase, and like this idea of the
human relationship with technology. Frank Herbert had a lot to
say about that. Even Brian Herbert's novels explore that relationship
a lot. I would like the show to explore that
more fully and kind of like say it with your chest,
you know, like, yes, you tap danced around some themes
(31:39):
in this first season, but you never really commented or
had anything to say about any of them outside of
fear being sort of a motivator for a lot of
the characters. So I guess I would like the second
season to focus on pick a Lane, focus on Toul
and Volley as our main characters, and pick some pick
some thematic points to on luck that are pertinent to
(32:01):
this universe in the story, and don't worry, like, don't
explain Lord to me. As a Dune fan, I love Lor.
I don't need the Lord explained to me, and I
honestly don't think the general audience also wants Lord.
Speaker 6 (32:13):
Throw or here's it, here's an alternative pitch.
Speaker 4 (32:16):
I got one the the the Rebel Alliance bar got
blown up, right, and somehow Desmonds survived. What if season
two is they're opening a new brupub, like a new gastro,
the Acundas, and it's like Sandwich the Bear, the Bear
(32:37):
meets Doom Prophecy, and it's just like, you know what
it takes to open a restaurant in this world where
you've got to contend with all these different factions.
Speaker 6 (32:47):
Yeah, and where to hide your spice and where to
hide your Yeah? Exactly, Yeah, Jason, Jason.
Speaker 5 (32:53):
For me, it's almost simpler, Like I would love to
know by the end of season two, what prophecy, like,
what is it referring to? Like did that get answered
to you in any way? Is this Paul?
Speaker 6 (33:03):
Is this the god Emperor? Is this Desmond?
Speaker 5 (33:06):
Like? What are we doing here? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (33:08):
I think that is a to dangle that question that
won't be answered for ten thousand fictional years at least.
I think was not necessary because you're setting up an
expectation of a thing that will surely absolutely not happen
(33:28):
in this story at all, right, right, And so I
thought that was, you know, kind of a mistake. Give
me a prophecy about things that are going to happen
in this story, you.
Speaker 5 (33:39):
Know, yeah, even if Alia thinks they're happening to this story,
we're listening here going out. Nope, that's not it.
Speaker 4 (33:45):
I think the move away from calling the show Dune's
Sisterhood was a mistake. Like, I think it should have
remained being called sisterhood. Should have been about the schism
in the sisterhood, should have been about like would have
focus in on the value tool of the story. Instead,
they set up this mystery box problem, which, like as
you say, is solvable to them. So I think I
would have done it. I would have just stuck with
what you know, because the sister is in lessly interesting.
(34:08):
The best part of the show was Volya just going
super scion like and just that's just like just take
out your sword, like, yes.
Speaker 6 (34:19):
Tell me tell me more, mother, what are we doing?
Speaker 3 (34:21):
Like it's great, like and became a standout like there
are the accolades have potential. A lot of the young
cast has so much potential in the show. Yeah, and
they are and they aren't given the space to cook
on screen.
Speaker 5 (34:34):
Can I can I ask you about that, Abu, because
that's like a this is a big question to me.
In the Dune books, the voice is never used in
this way. And to me, this was like a big
mistake that he made in Dune Part one when Jessica
instead of kind of distracting the guards and then getting out,
you know, the order to kill yourself. And then now
they've taken this like to eleven.
Speaker 4 (34:56):
That it's it's just pure like you have on everyone's
like you can just make them do anything.
Speaker 6 (35:03):
Yeah, So that's kind of.
Speaker 5 (35:04):
That kind of undoes the core philosophy of what Frank
was trying to communicate in the first place with the voice, right.
Speaker 3 (35:10):
Yeah, absolutely, I mean Frank Herbert like famously said that
every mother uses the voice on their child, every parent
uses the voice on their child.
Speaker 6 (35:18):
Right, that is what the is.
Speaker 3 (35:20):
It is the tone of voice where you know, I'm
in fucking trouble and I need to do what mom
tells me right now, and that and the Benny Jesuit
in this fictional universe have honed and crafted that to
be able to do that on many people, to influence
their decisions. But yes, it is, you know, as cool
(35:42):
as it was to see Volliott just kind of like
walk through a bunch of guards and command them to
trip over themselves, that it breaks all sense of the
lore in many ways, which, to be fair, like the
Brian Herbert books do as well. You know, Laura kind
of gets thrown out and go when you get get
to those books, and so yeah, yeah, I mean it does.
(36:04):
But if they just I think if you can stick
to some thematic elements that make Frank Herbert's story so interesting,
then the rest of this falls into place. But I
think a lot of this show is driven by plot
rather than its themes or ideas, and so then a
lot of a lot of what happens has to just
happen for the plot, which is I need.
Speaker 6 (36:25):
To work to watch.
Speaker 4 (36:27):
I need to work on my dad voice because I
told my six year old to do something the other
day and he came he came back with a literal
and I quote you need to quit your yappin, which was.
Speaker 6 (36:41):
It was so stunned by it took me.
Speaker 5 (36:43):
It took me.
Speaker 6 (36:44):
It was like the reverse voice.
Speaker 1 (36:48):
With a Well, it's been a delight to have you here,
as as always, where can we find you Jason and.
Speaker 5 (36:59):
H you'll us anywhere you listen to your podcast. Escape
Hatch is out next week as this episode is dropping.
We have Rosy Night on the podcast Constantine Jason Constant.
Speaker 1 (37:15):
What a wonderful film.
Speaker 5 (37:16):
Yes, Tilda and Keanu so and many great episodes we
got coming up. We've got Tinker Tailor, Soldier Spy, The Godfather,
Too Fast, Too Furious, Wow, Too Fast, to Furious, got
Father and Too Fast Furious really occupy the same cinematic.
Speaker 6 (37:35):
The god Father the next week.
Speaker 5 (37:40):
Next week, that's happening.
Speaker 2 (37:44):
Okay, well we contained multitudes.
Speaker 1 (37:47):
Yes, well, thanks ad for joining us. That's been it
for this episode. Bye everybody, Thank you. X ray Vision
is hosted by Jason Sepcion and Rosie Knight and is
a production of iHeart Podcasts. Our executive producers are Joel
(38:08):
Monique and Aaron Kaufman. Our supervising producer is Abu zafar Our.
Producers are Common, Laurent Dean Jonathan and Fay wag Our
theme song is by Brian Vasquez, with alternate theme songs
by Aaron Kaufman. Special thanks to Soul Rubin, Chris Lord,
Kenny Goodman and Heidi our discord moderator,
Warning, today's episode could date spoilers for the first season
of Dune Prophecy on HBO, and of course the wider
Dude Cannon be warned.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Hello, Jason Concepcio and I'm a busafar.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
And welcome back to x ray Vision, the podcast where
we dive deep, deeper than a sad word. It's your
favorite shows, movies, comics of pop culture coming to you
from our podcast will Ward bring you three episodes a
week every Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
In today's episode, we are joined once again by Jason
and h from Escape Patch formerly known as Dune Pod
to talk about Dune Prophecy season one in its entirety.
Thank you guys for joining us. Lovely to have you back.
Speaker 4 (00:53):
It's a delight, thank you for having us back to
talk about this very important piece of pop culture.
Speaker 5 (01:00):
Dive right into it. Can we just take a minute
and give a shout out to the goat and say
rest in power our Dune King David Lynch.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
Yeah, yeah, great, even with even with all the changes,
an absolutely unique vision that I think is stands on
its own as a just an incredible imagining of that
world and some of the things honestly like the navigators
(01:30):
feel like that's what they should look like.
Speaker 6 (01:33):
Yeah, I think that's right.
Speaker 4 (01:34):
I think I think he defined parts of the Dune
universe straight out of his imagining. That made it more
vivid than even what's in the book. Even though the
movie is beloved by bayouts, I'm getting choked up. No,
even though the movie is beloved, it was a failure.
But still his imprint on the Dune universe is eternal,
(01:58):
and these just a tremend this visionary director.
Speaker 6 (02:01):
So we will miss him.
Speaker 5 (02:02):
Yeah, I love you, David.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
Well, let's so, guys, season one of Dune Prophecy in
the books. Yes, we expect to season two. I think
we should. You know, season two will be coming. Our
thoughts now that this has we have finished six episodes,
not a tremendous amount of runway to get a story
(02:25):
off the ground. Certainly a story is sprawling and interwoven,
as this one is spanning multiple time frames, the past,
the president in some of the future. Your thoughts on
season one, Well.
Speaker 5 (02:38):
So we were you know, we were a little nervous
about the show. We were excited because we want more
stories and we want to get we want to get
into the world. But Obviously, we were nervous that it
was not based on some of Frank's works. Jason and
I have not read unlike Abou, you know, we're only
lightweight Dune fans. We have not read all the Brian
Herbert books. And then it had a very troubled production,
(03:02):
right with the original showrunner getting fired and then the
guy from Chernobyl coming in.
Speaker 2 (03:06):
We're like, yes, this is gonna be incredible.
Speaker 5 (03:08):
Then he leaves, and so it's we were sort of
a little skeptical. There were some real highlights the production
design and the costumes and the sets and seeing some
of the stuff was really amazing, and some of the
performances were really really incredible, especially with the younger cast members.
But then there were just also some misses, which I
am sure we are going to get into in this discussion.
(03:30):
Just some of the feeling unanchored, and I think it's
largely related to the way that they laid it out
time wise, starting in the present, jumping back to the
bast and so that for me was something that made
it a little harder to grab hold up to the series.
Speaker 4 (03:46):
Yeah, I think to build on that, my take is
is maybe a little briefer which is just it's not
that good.
Speaker 6 (03:53):
Like the show is just not that good.
Speaker 4 (03:56):
Like it's got some huge head. We have a podcast
that was formly called Dune, And like my repeated feeling
when watching this is like if I am bored by
this show, who is this show for?
Speaker 6 (04:09):
Whom is this show?
Speaker 4 (04:11):
Because like, you know, it's just it wasn't there There
are bones there, there are great performances, great actors, great
production design, high production values.
Speaker 6 (04:22):
The actual writing of.
Speaker 4 (04:23):
The show is just very clunky and not that good.
There's they've kind of got Denny Villeneuve's Dune, like all
of the grandiosity of that property stuffed into kind of
a like you know, see Tier Star Trek the Next
Generation episode and like that's and that's just kind of
that's just kind of a bummer. So I hope in
(04:45):
season two they just kind of figure out how.
Speaker 6 (04:47):
To write better. I guess.
Speaker 4 (04:49):
I mean, I'm like, you know, how to make it
just a tighter show with less expository theater and like
more focused on one story and and just have it
be a bit tighter.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
Aaboo your thoughts.
Speaker 3 (05:00):
You know, I would echo that sentiment as well. I
also wasn't the biggest fan of the show. It didn't
land with me, and as a Dune super fan, I
found a number of things disappointing. I will say there
was a lot of Dune lore in the show, which
was nice, that was fun. But I think to Jason's point,
the storytelling, the writing is where it fell short for me,
(05:25):
and six episodes just wasn't enough time to tell the stories,
the multiple stories, multiple plot threads, multiple character arcs that
they were trying to cram into six hour long episodes.
Episode six I think was actually even ninety minutes and
still not enough time to get the characters and story
(05:46):
moving towards satisfying not just conclusions, but towards satisfying moments
as well. You know, parts felt rushed, A lot of
stuff was assumed to happen off screen, a lot of
character development happening off screen. It was disappointed, and for
what it's worth, I think, like living in the shadow
of a Danny villenef masterpiece is a very.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
Difficult place to live in.
Speaker 3 (06:06):
Yes, and so to be given the directive that here's
the master work upon which you are making the show,
make it just as good that is that is a
tall order. And so I do feel for the fine
folks at HBO who were given that order and did
their best to live up to it and in some
ways did in other ways I think fell quite tragically short.
Speaker 1 (06:31):
My take very similar to all of yours. I think
it was I watched episode one and thought, okay, a
little bit of a mess, but there's good. I feel
like there's something in there, there's bones in there that
can emerge. And then really it didn't start turning back
(06:52):
towards that those glimmers of optimism until maybe episode five
and parts of episode six. It felt, you know, another
red flag is in episode two there's like a long
sex scene. I think I said this on a previous episode,
like listen, like I'm steeped in Game of Thrones. Love
(07:13):
a good sex position scene, but I feel like if
you're switching positions, it's too long. Any sex scene where
there's multiple where you're going through multiple rounds of different techniques,
but it's probably you know, we could cut this fat.
And I feel like that to me is if there's
(07:33):
a if there's a way forward for season two, it's less.
We don't less stuff. And so maybe now that they've
established what the show is, what the basic story is,
this kind of illicit dabbling in illegal technologies and the
effects they have on Imperial society and people being still
(07:58):
lured to this stuff for the for the feeling it
gives people, for you know, the boost it gives the economy.
That's all kind of fun. But we can jettison a
lot of hopefully the flashbacks. We're already ten thousand years
in the past. I felt like the guy flash why
(08:19):
back twelve years?
Speaker 2 (08:23):
Like ten twelve really important year? You gotta this.
Speaker 5 (08:29):
Was my This was my biggest problem with the show, right,
Like the whole structure of the show was based on
the fact that they wanted the Desmond reveal to.
Speaker 6 (08:36):
Rock everyone to our core.
Speaker 5 (08:37):
Yeah, and it's this classic thing of Hollywood over indexing
on surprise. If the show had started with young Valua
and young Tula and showed them coming up together, spend
three three episodes with them just like you know, Ryan
did it amazingly somehow on House of the Dragon. He
pulled it off. It's not easy, but doing the flashbacks
(08:58):
for episode three we a that an acolyte. It doesn't work.
You do not end up connected to the characters.
Speaker 4 (09:04):
Yeah, and it's also especially because like young Volley is
a great like I love that actress. I thought she
was a really great actress. And the scenes, yeah, the
young the young counterparts were great, and the scenes in
which they're just murking people at like House of the
Benny Jesuit is it was was was really exciting, like
it was was really really fun, but like you know,
(09:25):
it just kind of comes too late. I think the
way I would have redone this, given that they were
only given six episodes, which is difficult to cram all
this in, I would have just trimmed off anything that
wasn't volume on Tula related. I think any of the
scenes with like the kids, all the stuff at the bar,
the rebel bar, the only bars, the only bars, like
(09:49):
all of that stuff would have just trimmed away and
just focus it on this hearkening story and it would
have been much more compelling.
Speaker 5 (09:57):
By the way nobody thought to empty the bar of
like the ten.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
Was there.
Speaker 6 (10:05):
The rebellion is very sloppy.
Speaker 3 (10:07):
Guys, Why is your spice just upstairs?
Speaker 5 (10:10):
Open?
Speaker 3 (10:14):
Sister MICHAELA, Why are your robes hidden in the same
place as Karen lock your locker?
Speaker 4 (10:24):
Yes, this is like this is how like my wife
always knows when I've been in the kitchen because all
the kitchen cabinets are open and all the cover doors
are all the covered doors are ajar, And it's just like,
like Karen has this problem bad, Like he comes back
from his secret bombing mission is just leaving the.
Speaker 6 (10:43):
Bombs, like out On doesn't put anything else. Someone will,
Someone will spruce that up.
Speaker 2 (10:49):
Not a problem, Jason.
Speaker 3 (11:10):
You said this, Uh, when I think we talked about
episode four, Jason Concepcion, You and I were doing that episode,
and you said something that just stuck in my mind
about this show and hasn't left.
Speaker 2 (11:19):
It feels like so many of the.
Speaker 3 (11:20):
Characters, perhaps outside of Volley and Tula, are passengers in
their own story. Things are happening because the play requires
them to happen so that the next plot point can
happen next, And the characters are just reacting to things
happening to them. And you said that, And I can't
stop thinking about it, and I can't stop seeing it
even in episode.
Speaker 1 (11:41):
Poor Mark Strong playing Mark.
Speaker 6 (11:48):
Mark.
Speaker 4 (11:49):
Mark Strong needs to listen to that Zuck Rogan interview
and reclaim the masculine.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
Think about we put.
Speaker 6 (11:58):
A little bit of more land in this.
Speaker 4 (12:02):
He needs to get a gold chain and go bow
hunting and cook his own meat that hunt.
Speaker 1 (12:06):
I mean, you know what, that's a good it's a
good point, h because I think the emperor is interesting.
I liked initially as we talked about it, BOO. I
liked the idea of exploring this really interesting uh governmental
system that they have, which kind of requires a weak emperor,
right because he's really a mediator between these very powerful families.
(12:29):
He's not supposed to be like he's more of like
the commissioner of the NBA than he is like an emperor.
He works for these families. Yeah, and so I thought
that was I thought that that could be really interesting
and there were interesting moments to it. But the issue
is when you only set up like one point of
conflict between the ri Chesy family. He needs their ships,
(12:51):
you know, then it doesn't feel complex enough. It just
feels like this one guy like has something over him,
and it results in this feeling of this guy is
just a drip, like I thought he was the emperor.
He hasn't sure juice whatsoever, and it makes it feel
less lived in and it I just wish they would
(13:12):
have picked to me, it's like pick Awayane. If you're
gonna go with the the imperial politics angle, which I
think is wonderful and rich, just dive headfirst into that
and kind of ignore the rest of this stuff. If
you're going to dive into the effects of nanotechnology and
the and the development of the Benny Jesre It's control
over the imperial households in the Landslard, then just kind
(13:33):
of dive into that and ignore everything else. And I think, Jason,
Jason G You're right that what needs to happen is
just pick alaye.
Speaker 4 (13:43):
You know, And this brings I think your point. I
think your point is exactly right, and it brings up
two things. Very First of all, I would really need
to see Adam Silver in a house Corrino uniform because.
Speaker 6 (13:55):
Indistinguishable from what we got on screen. And thing two.
Speaker 4 (13:59):
Like like he's such a weak emperor. It also undercuts
the whole rebellion storyline because it's like, what are you
rebelling against?
Speaker 6 (14:06):
Like this horrible, this horrible tyrant who can't even run
his family? Like what is that? What is that? Like
what's actually good? What's actually gone?
Speaker 4 (14:14):
You should just like, you know, all these people are
completely weak, Like it's obviously a weak environment, like you
don't need to like bomb the house, the House of
the Emperor. You could find other ways to achieve whatever
your goals are here. And so it's just it's just
deeply unsatisfying all that stuff. But the stuff that is,
the stuff that is the house Hearkening story, the Valley
(14:35):
of Toula story is very interesting. I think A general
problem I found too, is that the show is just
a little too literal, Like it just takes like a
very like and the best example of this for me
is the the Fears of the Mind Killer thing. One second,
everyone in my house is sick, so I'm trying not
to I'm trying to use my own litiny against fear
to keep myself well. But like you know, the liney
(14:57):
the linear against fear is one of the most remarkable
pieces of writing in all of science fiction. I really
believe it's it's an amazing prayer that Herbert creates, and
they take this very interesting thing and make it this
completely literal artifact where it's like, oh, this is a
virus that feeds on fear.
Speaker 6 (15:16):
You have to just not be afraid of it. I'm like,
come like that. It's just so heavy. It's so heavy
handed and literal.
Speaker 4 (15:22):
It's like, you know, it's the equivalent of when, if
you know, Luke was being talked to on the on
the on the Death Star run and Obi Wan says that,
you know, use the force, Luke, and Luke was like,
oh right, you know, force equals mass times acceleration. I
must excrease the speed of my x wing to you know,
to to drive more. Force just makes this very literal
argument out of this, you know, kind of transcendent science
(15:45):
fiction concept.
Speaker 6 (15:46):
I found it just very tedious.
Speaker 5 (15:48):
Luke, listen to your Midi Chlorians.
Speaker 4 (15:51):
Yeah exactly, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 (15:55):
So, I mean, I I'd love to get your opinion
on this because I think to me, one of the
most to me, a huge stumbling block for enjoyment of
the story was I kind of felt like they went
back ten thousand years, but they didn't make the organizations
(16:17):
that they are portraying seem as if they were at
different early evolution their infancy. They're not called the Benny jesureit,
but that's all like the everything else their role. They're
already they're already placing people with lands, read families. They're
already standing to the right side of the Emperor whispering
in his ear. I think it would have been much
(16:40):
more interesting to see them like pitching that, getting into
those you know, families, forging those relationships. How do they
Is that an issue for y'all? And what do they do?
Could they you know, this is television. You could just
ignore it. We could just ignore that that's what they
did in season one and just start again. But what
(17:02):
can they do? And is that a problem? Is that?
Is that similarly an issue for y'all?
Speaker 5 (17:06):
I mean, in general, there's not enough subtlety in what's
happening right like's they're supposed to be maneuvering everything from
the shadows. And you do have that great moment in
episode six where they anerel the computer helps them pick,
and that's very cool where they're selecting.
Speaker 1 (17:20):
That was really cool.
Speaker 5 (17:22):
Yeah, But once they're like in there, they're just like
standing there making their motions and like like they're executing
their plans in full view of like the lancearrat and
stuff going on. It's it's like it's not very subtle.
And then you also have this challenge of this giant schism,
which I think is Jason. What they're trying to do here,
to show that there's this massive schism, and that's what's
going to really be the challenge for the Benajeesa. But
(17:44):
who are we rooting for? Like, are we looking for
these religious fundamentalists or are we rooting for this psychotic
murderer value Harken. It's hard for us to have a
dog in this fight.
Speaker 4 (17:57):
Yeah, there's not really a protagonist in this show because
like there's like, you know, I there shows like Succession
where there's you know, you don't really like anyone, You're
not really supposed to like anyone, but like you have
sort of an affinity for certain characters because of their
quirks or whatever. But everyone's a bad person. This show
doesn't can't be it can't work on that level. Like
it can't work where you know, it's very difficult to
(18:19):
introduce a cousin Greg like in this in this show
where you just like which I guess is I guess
it's yes, Yeah, but it's so I guess I'm root
for him by default.
Speaker 5 (18:31):
But yeah, I think it is a big problem for me.
Speaker 4 (18:35):
That the show doesn't have any distinguishing culture from being
set ten thousand years ago. This is a criticism that
also is leveled against House of the Dragon. Sure, it's like, oh,
the show is like, you know, so long ago, but
it's not that different. It's not that long ago in
House of the Dragon. Thing one thing two, that's a
medieval show, and so like history like sort of like
(18:56):
stays static for longer, and think three. Actually they're doing
interesting things and House to the Dragon with language and
how it's written, and it does use a slightly more
archaic syntax at certain times, which gives this kind of
feeling of it being like differently old timey than Game
of Thrones Prime.
Speaker 6 (19:12):
There's none of that in this. They're wearing literally the.
Speaker 4 (19:14):
Same outfits that they're wearing in the Villain of movie,
just like ten thousand, just ten thousand years ago, like
nothing has moved, and I find that a little problematic.
Speaker 6 (19:24):
There's there's there's reasons.
Speaker 4 (19:25):
That real duneheads could point to about why like it
because society stays that static, and Herbert has a lot
to say about the staticness of society and what needs
to cause great change. I don't really think that's what
they're playing with here. I think they're just kind of saying,
we have production design already in the books, We're just
gonna run it, And I find that disappointing.
Speaker 3 (19:47):
Yeah, and I think that speaks to the guys Villanov's
shotow go for it. Yeah, I mean to the lower question,
You're absolutely right, Jason, Like, yes, stagnation is a is
a key theme throughout the Dune books, and it's specifically
technical stagnation. Because of the jihad and the war against machines,
a lot of technology kind of grinds to a halt,
(20:08):
and thus you see the evolution of biology, sisters with capabilities,
mentats doing computations, etc.
Speaker 6 (20:16):
Etc.
Speaker 3 (20:17):
You know, navigators flying ships instead of computers, flying ships
through space, that sort of thing. So these these groups
and their abilities is a direct response to the loss
of tech because of this great war that almost wiped
out humanity against machines. But I also agree that, like
ten thousand years is also a long time, So for
(20:37):
the status quo to be so similar to what we
saw in the Ville Nutt films and in the Frank
books is a little bit disappointing for what it's worth,
Like the source material they're working off of the Brian
Herbert books commits the same sin And like this, I
think This is just like a bit of a prequelitis problem,
Like a lot of prequels commit the sin of not
being different enough. But I think this show, like again,
(20:59):
lived on the under the very tall shadow of the
ville Neuve films, and they had to make it look
like the ville Neve movies, you know.
Speaker 5 (21:07):
But also almost everybody seems to have thinking machines, which
is a little weird, you know, like the jihad is over,
but everyone secretly has one that seems like a that
seems like a problem.
Speaker 3 (21:18):
Yeah, And another issue that I kind of had with
this season was the the fact that again this is
maybe a six episode problem, but the fact that it's
asking us to wait for future seasons to get more,
you know, like a lot of these ideas, like what's
happening with the Sisterhood will we're introducing a schism over
six episodes tbd, Like what happens next is up to
(21:41):
future sea, Like a lot of this first season relies
on a second season that you know, up until recently,
we didn't know what's confirmed. Now we know it's confirmed,
so maybe we will get resolution to some you know,
the dozen or so plot threads we've just left dangling
at the end of episode six. But I think for me,
like that is an unsatisfying way to watch a season
(22:02):
of television. Like you compare that to something like Severance,
and you're like, Okay, I could just watch season one
and walk away and never watch season two and still
be like, Wow, what a great story I was told.
I don't think Prophecy achieved that.
Speaker 5 (22:32):
Can we talk about Desmond and like our entire journey
for Desmond, which is the central mystery, the entire thing,
and we go from blue eyes at a distance to
blue eyes slightly closer and a shadowy figure off to
the side, so we've got a thinking machine and a
shot like that was no satisfaction.
Speaker 4 (22:52):
Well, and like the the fact that it's just like
he's he's able to combust people because there's a nanovirus
in his eye is just like like all right, I
guess like if that's what you're going for, like you know,
I mean, it's just like it's a it's a very
wikipedia answer to a mystery, which is just like, you know,
it is cool, like I mean, because you know, he's
(23:13):
a great actor. It's a compelling performance. He's doing freaky
things with his face, like he leaves right back like
there's cool bits in there. And then for it's like, oh,
I've dissected the brain and there's fear and the robots
came and gave you know, it's like, oh God, like
you're just just say less, like don't tell me anything,
like just like keep it a mystery, like don't don't don't.
Just make it this very literal, very factual. There is
(23:37):
a nanovirus. It is triggered by his eye. The eye
was put there by a robot. And now a character
will say all this on screen. It's that's real tough.
That's that's really tough to watch.
Speaker 1 (23:47):
I will say, I think that there is a road
to make all of this feel much more propulsive and
character driven, if you know, there's just something really interesting
about it. Or organization that has built itself on the
idea that they give the best advice in the galaxy.
They know when people are lying, but secretly it's all
(24:11):
chat GBT like that is that is giving, Like that's cool,
that's funny. The idea that that could be found out
by the Emperor or anybody else that they're trying to
get on their you know, as technicians of whatever. This uh,
this sentient AI is telling them to do that. They're
(24:32):
still getting up to speed with how to how to
give this advice in the way that they're being advised
to do. I think all of that is interesting, and
maybe there's a way that they can drill down on
that as a as a as a point of conflict,
you know, because you know, we've built up this illicit
trade in technology is as one of the main drivers
of story here. How about plugging that into the character
(24:55):
and make it something, make it a make it it's
it is ostensible a secret, but it's one that we
don't feel as like under any kind of threat. How
about we put that secret under threats absolutely.
Speaker 5 (25:08):
With Aniro busted by Lilah, Like, is it backed up
to Azure? Yeah?
Speaker 6 (25:13):
Yeah, they got they got, they gotta, they gotta. They
got a version on a hard.
Speaker 4 (25:18):
Disk somewhere they could repoot from. Okay, I And I mean,
so they're gonna go to Aracus like a version of
this that would be kind of compelling and also work
for lower reasons. Is that you know, we know that
the Benny Jazerich go to Aracus at some point in
time and see the missionary of Productiva, this his you know,
this this this lisan Algay myth that a messiah will
come and liberate the freemen. We know the Freemen exist
(25:39):
at this time already on Oracus. It would be interesting if,
like Valia's machinations on Oracus in this time and she
tries to figure out what went on with Desmond actually
end up seeding that that religion as well, if like
the entire religion of the Freemen was chat ept in
some sense, right, They're like, oh, we got to manipulate
these people. It's like our anrel's like tell them about
(26:00):
the Messaiah, you know, and like gave them, you know,
gave them something, you know, gave them something like that.
That could be that could be fun. I like this
idea that like there's that this this society is driven
against technology, but in the background, the technology is actually
pulling the string still.
Speaker 6 (26:20):
And like it could still be the case, like in
the universe that we know later that that was true.
Speaker 5 (26:25):
That that actually shocked me, right, like that that idea
that they had a thinking machine like that. I had
never considered that for the Bena Jezerit, so I actually
thought that was one unique and cool idea.
Speaker 1 (26:35):
Yeah, then that is lore correct, right boot.
Speaker 3 (26:38):
That is more accurate even as far as Frank Kurbert's
books go, because when books, I.
Speaker 5 (26:42):
Don't think I realized that where was that discussed?
Speaker 6 (26:44):
In the end.
Speaker 3 (26:44):
It is a single line in a very dense and
convoluted book called Heretics of Dune, which is the fifth
book series. There's a single reference to the Benny Jesuit
secretly have had computers this whole time, and I've been
breaking the rules this whole time.
Speaker 1 (26:57):
Oh interesting, I honestly love it. Here's my refined elevator
pitch for HBO Max doing Prophecy season two.
Speaker 3 (27:05):
Ready, let's hear it.
Speaker 1 (27:08):
The war against the computers has been one, or has it?
There is a surviving AI, and this group, the Sisterhood,
believes that they have this genie in a bottle. They're
pulling on the string. They're completely in control. They're getting
the information they need so they can build up there
their organization and take control of the galaxy. But what
if this AI is, as a survivor of the old times,
(27:32):
is plotting to rebuild itself, and it's got its twins
somewhere on Iracus also plotting in conjunction with it. And
now you've got value having to make a choice one
building up an organization while two keeping this genie in
its fucking bottle.
Speaker 6 (27:51):
Mm hmmm, it's good. Colossus the Value Project. I love it.
That's a banger. Let's go. I really like it. I
like this idea.
Speaker 4 (28:02):
And again, I would just start with a page that
says Volia and Tula, what are they doing this season?
Speaker 6 (28:08):
And that should be eighty to ninety percent of what
they're doing.
Speaker 4 (28:11):
And if it's working against the AI, great, if it's
like trying to figure out the mystery and racis great.
But I would I would center just so much of
the story on that. I don't need to see any
more Carinos. I don't know what they're doing. I don't it,
just like none of it matters. None of it mattered,
like the princess escaping because of the face dancer. All
that nonsense was completely I can't believe that anyone wrote
(28:31):
that on a page and like someone agreed to go
shoot it.
Speaker 6 (28:34):
It's like no one stopped as why does this matter
at all? It doesn't.
Speaker 4 (28:38):
It didn't matter, and so they could just scrap all
of that and focus on this much more directed story
that is about Valia and Tula and the AI that
they've got to try to figure out is it they
are they controlling it and using it for their ads
or is it still actually in control.
Speaker 6 (28:52):
I love that story.
Speaker 5 (28:54):
They should make decisions that make sense, though, right, like
instead of being in service to the environs a plot,
Yeah right, saying I'm going to operate from the shadows,
so I'll go to the center of the universe, the
most important planet, and that's where I'm hide. It's like, well,
I don't know about that. That doesn't quite make sense.
Speaker 1 (29:12):
As the as the low Master, m h. What would
you like to see and what would you say to
the producers of A of A season two of doing
Prophecy just as a as a north Star as a
load star for them?
Speaker 3 (29:28):
Sure? Yeah, Well before I say that, I do want
to say, as much as I love your Elevator pitch, Jason,
the books don't treat it that way, and if they
continue to work off the Brian Herbert source material, unlikely
that we will get. I actually think andrewl is like
dead dead. There are no backups on any hard drives
(29:48):
or any A W S servers out there, and what
we're going to see now is a dorite of Volia's
schism within the Sisterhood, which is which is kind of
where the books go. Where what I want to see
season two go. I agree with what y'all have said,
like pick a lane. First of all, Tula and Balia
are very much your strongest characters. And for what it's worth,
(30:11):
the showrunner Alison Chapter has said, Tula and Bali are
the heart of this show. I didn't feel that this season.
I want to feel that next season. I want I
want them to be the actual heart of this show,
to spend the most time with them and their decision
making and the challenges that they're facing. I think what
I would like for this show to do in a
second season is to focus less on lore, which I
(30:35):
felt like this first season was really mired in. You know,
we got to explain to Jason to your point about
everything being literal. You know, we got to explain this,
We got to show you the origins of that. We
gotta blah blah blah. You know, let's throw in an
Easter egg about the Xian's and let's have a face
dancer in here, which well, you know, don't worry about it.
That will matter later in a future season, there's a
(30:55):
lot of sort of I hesitate to call it fan
service because I know we have this group has thoughts
on fan service that maybe we don't all agree on,
but like it felt like very heavy handed fan service
for people like me, and I didn't need that. What
I needed was for an excellent story, a well written story,
and a compelling story, which I didn't think I got
in season two. I would like for the story to
(31:16):
focus on themes and themes that matter to the Dune universe,
to your point, Chase, and like this idea of the
human relationship with technology. Frank Herbert had a lot to
say about that. Even Brian Herbert's novels explore that relationship
a lot. I would like the show to explore that
more fully and kind of like say it with your chest,
you know, like, yes, you tap danced around some themes
(31:39):
in this first season, but you never really commented or
had anything to say about any of them outside of
fear being sort of a motivator for a lot of
the characters. So I guess I would like the second
season to focus on pick a Lane, focus on Toul
and Volley as our main characters, and pick some pick
some thematic points to on luck that are pertinent to
(32:01):
this universe in the story, and don't worry, like, don't
explain Lord to me. As a Dune fan, I love Lor.
I don't need the Lord explained to me, and I
honestly don't think the general audience also wants Lord.
Speaker 6 (32:13):
Throw or here's it, here's an alternative pitch.
Speaker 4 (32:16):
I got one the the the Rebel Alliance bar got
blown up, right, and somehow Desmonds survived. What if season
two is they're opening a new brupub, like a new gastro,
the Acundas, and it's like Sandwich the Bear, the Bear
(32:37):
meets Doom Prophecy, and it's just like, you know what
it takes to open a restaurant in this world where
you've got to contend with all these different factions.
Speaker 6 (32:47):
Yeah, and where to hide your spice and where to
hide your Yeah? Exactly, Yeah, Jason, Jason.
Speaker 5 (32:53):
For me, it's almost simpler, Like I would love to
know by the end of season two, what prophecy, like,
what is it referring to? Like did that get answered
to you in any way? Is this Paul?
Speaker 6 (33:03):
Is this the god Emperor? Is this Desmond?
Speaker 5 (33:06):
Like? What are we doing here? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (33:08):
I think that is a to dangle that question that
won't be answered for ten thousand fictional years at least.
I think was not necessary because you're setting up an
expectation of a thing that will surely absolutely not happen
(33:28):
in this story at all, right, right, And so I
thought that was, you know, kind of a mistake. Give
me a prophecy about things that are going to happen
in this story, you.
Speaker 5 (33:39):
Know, yeah, even if Alia thinks they're happening to this story,
we're listening here going out. Nope, that's not it.
Speaker 4 (33:45):
I think the move away from calling the show Dune's
Sisterhood was a mistake. Like, I think it should have
remained being called sisterhood. Should have been about the schism
in the sisterhood, should have been about like would have
focus in on the value tool of the story. Instead,
they set up this mystery box problem, which, like as
you say, is solvable to them. So I think I
would have done it. I would have just stuck with
what you know, because the sister is in lessly interesting.
(34:08):
The best part of the show was Volya just going
super scion like and just that's just like just take
out your sword, like, yes.
Speaker 6 (34:19):
Tell me tell me more, mother, what are we doing?
Speaker 3 (34:21):
Like it's great, like and became a standout like there
are the accolades have potential. A lot of the young
cast has so much potential in the show. Yeah, and
they are and they aren't given the space to cook
on screen.
Speaker 5 (34:34):
Can I can I ask you about that, Abu, because
that's like a this is a big question to me.
In the Dune books, the voice is never used in
this way. And to me, this was like a big
mistake that he made in Dune Part one when Jessica
instead of kind of distracting the guards and then getting out,
you know, the order to kill yourself. And then now
they've taken this like to eleven.
Speaker 4 (34:56):
That it's it's just pure like you have on everyone's
like you can just make them do anything.
Speaker 6 (35:03):
Yeah, So that's kind of.
Speaker 5 (35:04):
That kind of undoes the core philosophy of what Frank
was trying to communicate in the first place with the voice, right.
Speaker 3 (35:10):
Yeah, absolutely, I mean Frank Herbert like famously said that
every mother uses the voice on their child, every parent
uses the voice on their child.
Speaker 6 (35:18):
Right, that is what the is.
Speaker 3 (35:20):
It is the tone of voice where you know, I'm
in fucking trouble and I need to do what mom
tells me right now, and that and the Benny Jesuit
in this fictional universe have honed and crafted that to
be able to do that on many people, to influence
their decisions. But yes, it is, you know, as cool
(35:42):
as it was to see Volliott just kind of like
walk through a bunch of guards and command them to
trip over themselves, that it breaks all sense of the
lore in many ways, which, to be fair, like the
Brian Herbert books do as well. You know, Laura kind
of gets thrown out and go when you get get
to those books, and so yeah, yeah, I mean it does.
(36:04):
But if they just I think if you can stick
to some thematic elements that make Frank Herbert's story so interesting,
then the rest of this falls into place. But I
think a lot of this show is driven by plot
rather than its themes or ideas, and so then a
lot of a lot of what happens has to just
happen for the plot, which is I need.
Speaker 6 (36:25):
To work to watch.
Speaker 4 (36:27):
I need to work on my dad voice because I
told my six year old to do something the other
day and he came he came back with a literal
and I quote you need to quit your yappin, which was.
Speaker 6 (36:41):
It was so stunned by it took me.
Speaker 5 (36:43):
It took me.
Speaker 6 (36:44):
It was like the reverse voice.
Speaker 1 (36:48):
With a Well, it's been a delight to have you here,
as as always, where can we find you Jason and.
Speaker 5 (36:59):
H you'll us anywhere you listen to your podcast. Escape
Hatch is out next week as this episode is dropping.
We have Rosy Night on the podcast Constantine Jason Constant.
Speaker 1 (37:15):
What a wonderful film.
Speaker 5 (37:16):
Yes, Tilda and Keanu so and many great episodes we
got coming up. We've got Tinker Tailor, Soldier Spy, The Godfather,
Too Fast, Too Furious, Wow, Too Fast, to Furious, got
Father and Too Fast Furious really occupy the same cinematic.
Speaker 6 (37:35):
The god Father the next week.
Speaker 5 (37:40):
Next week, that's happening.
Speaker 2 (37:44):
Okay, well we contained multitudes.
Speaker 1 (37:47):
Yes, well, thanks ad for joining us. That's been it
for this episode. Bye everybody, Thank you. X ray Vision
is hosted by Jason Sepcion and Rosie Knight and is
a production of iHeart Podcasts. Our executive producers are Joel
(38:08):
Monique and Aaron Kaufman. Our supervising producer is Abu zafar Our.
Producers are Common, Laurent Dean Jonathan and Fay wag Our
theme song is by Brian Vasquez, with alternate theme songs
by Aaron Kaufman. Special thanks to Soul Rubin, Chris Lord,
Kenny Goodman and Heidi our discord moderator,
Hosts And Creators
Jason Concepcion
Rosie Knight
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