April 1, 2025 • 52 mins
Jason and Rosie roll for initiative and revisit the Faerûn to break down the excellent D&D movie starring Chris Pine, a full tome of spells, and a big fat dragon! First, they set the stage with a recap worthy of the greatest bards of the Forgotten Realms, then they’re joined by Aaron to discuss the many D&D easter eggs in the film, and finally Jason breaks down the history and legacy of Dungeons and Dragons on every aspect of pop culture with a lore deep dive.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
Hello, Jason and I am dear Old Rosier.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Tonight from the World.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
Of Ancients and Dragons and welcome back to Answer vision
of the podcast where we dive deep to your favorite shows, movies,
comics of pop culture. Company from our podcast where we
are bringing you three action pack episodes a week plus news.
Speaker 3 (00:36):
In today's episode, we're doing a little Airlock time capsule
mash up. We rewatched the very underrated Dungeons and Dragons
Honor among Thieves movie, very exceptionally charming movie with a
delightful cast, which, in case you missed it in theaters
as many people did, is now available on Netflix to stream.
(00:56):
So we're gonna be talking about that. We're gonna roll
for initiative. Was this movie successful and feeling like an
actual game of D and D. We will be tapping
in super producer and D and D DM Aaron, and
we got a little quick facts about the movie. We
got a delightful omnibus coming background on D and D.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
So basically, you guys asked us for D and D.
Speaker 3 (01:18):
We did the listener service and guess what we're D
and D delivering.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
Let's go, okay, let's talk about this movie. We open
D and d Hat with Edgin Darvas played by Chris
Pines parole hearing, he and we get and in this
(01:42):
parole hearing, which is wonderfully structured, we get the entire
download of how the rascal Edgin Darvis managed to end
up in this prison. He was once a Harper, which
is kind of like the Magic Cia, but like with Country.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
All the time.
Speaker 3 (02:02):
Though when I was, I was like, you were just
an You were like a little informant, huh, okay.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
A little bit.
Speaker 4 (02:09):
So.
Speaker 1 (02:09):
The Harpers are a secretive network of like very learned people, spies, scholars,
and folks who do good. They go across the land
fighting corruption and tyranny across Farren, which is like the
the main setting of Dungeons and Dragons the world, uh
and they and specifically a lot of this takes place
(02:30):
in an area called the Forgotten Realms. Edgin is a
good guy. He spied on a lot of people. As
Rosie mentioned, he informed on a lot of people.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
In the context of the movie, they were bad. Okay,
they were bad guys.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
They were bad. He lived an honorable life, and he
had a beautiful wife and a wonderful baby daughter. And
he lived according to a very strict moral code. But
then he steals like a cursed thing from the Red
Wizards of Theay and he didn't understand that they could
track it wherever it went, and he brought it home
and that ended up with his wife getting murdered in retaliation.
(03:06):
He blames himself for this. He gets very very depressed,
and he ends up in a life of crime, which
is how he meets Holga played by Michelle Rodriguez, who
is our barbarian. She gets exiled from her tribe because
she falls in love with an outsider. She carries a
very heavy axe, and she knows a lot about axes.
(03:28):
She is emotionally distant, and they immediately become fast friends.
Crucially and one of the things I love about this movie,
not romantically, another film, another story in more hacky hands,
would have been like, we need a love We need
a love story between Holgan and Gano. They are just
(03:52):
very very good friends, patonically great friends. It's wonderful. So
Holga helps Edgin raised Kira, his daughter, and you know,
they go around robin Hood stuff they steal from the rich,
and they steal a lot and they're getting away with
(04:13):
it for the most part. Until they get involved with
the hest that goes wrong. Fairly simple job. It seems
like infiltrate a high security.
Speaker 3 (04:21):
Going to be that lost job the classic of course,
classic classic, I mean the last job.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
Infiltrate a high security magic vault to steal the tablet
of Reawakening, which is a magical item that can resurrect
the dead. And of course Edgin wants this to bring
his wife back so his daughter can have a mother
and his Their team includes Simon.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
I love him, Justice Smith like.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
A magic guy, a magician with you know confidence, yes,
so Fina who is a red wizard who why did
they trust her? I don't know? And Forge Fitzwilliam played
by Hugh Grant, who is the charming rogue who you
(05:11):
know you should not try. I guess them as a
con man.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
So it's like they knew what they were getting into. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (05:17):
Also is the bread rige. Was she in the crew
or was she the one who hired them to steal it?
Speaker 2 (05:23):
Unclear? But it's not going well for them basically.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
So the high school sideways. So Fina turns on them,
reveals that she's an necromancer and very very evil. Forge
turns on them as well, and when Edgin hands him
the tablet, Forge says, I'll find a way to save
you all. I'll return and get you back. And he turns,
(05:50):
runs out of the trap and is fucking never seen. Nope,
he double crossed them. Just like that, Edgen and Holg
are arrested, tried, sentenced to a number of year in
Revel's and the maximum security prison in the frozen Wastelands
that they are currently in having their parole hearing. And
that's it.
Speaker 3 (06:09):
We have to talk about the plan because this is
one of the funniest things about the movie is like
he keeps talking about this one guy, Jonathan.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
Jonathan, Jonathan.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
He knows Jonathan. Where is he?
Speaker 1 (06:20):
He's supposed to be on the parole board.
Speaker 3 (06:22):
I feel like Jonathan would really be vibing with my
sad origin story. Now I have to say, the funniest
thing is that Jonathan does turn up and they jump
out of a window using him to fly just as
the parole board says, we approved your parole.
Speaker 2 (06:40):
They didn't need to do it.
Speaker 3 (06:42):
But Jonathan, he survived even though they used him like
a giant, you know, kite. And now they're back in
never Winter. What an opening.
Speaker 2 (06:50):
I think the opening to this movie is like one
of the.
Speaker 3 (06:52):
Best, wonderful, great does the you know, Jason, you know
this as storytellers, I always remember Karen Gillen years and
years ago on Twitter being like, never do.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
The how did I get here?
Speaker 3 (07:06):
Like rewind kind of you know, a media as opening.
But this is a great way to do that kind
of exposition without it feeling like tired or doing like
a rewind, like here's how I got here. It's so fun.
I love the Jonathan jokes. Chris Pines, It just absolutely
the delivery is so good. He's like, oh and then
(07:26):
my wife died and they're like, wow, that's so sad,
and he's like, you know, I would find it really sad.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
Jonathan. Where's Jonathan?
Speaker 3 (07:32):
Yeah, Like he is so good in this role, and
I just the whole cast is honestly fantastic.
Speaker 2 (07:37):
So they escape, good for them, and Jonathan's still alive.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
So they end up back in never Winter and they
eventually discover you know what Forge has been up to
since he betrayed them. He is now running never Winter
as the Lord of never Winter. Is basically it's like
petty dictator, although everybody loves him for whatever reason, because
he's just he is a very charming guy. Yeah, and
(08:03):
in these years he has been raising Kira as his
own daughter, who he apparently has very strong feelings for,
like he loves her in his version of what love is.
Speaker 3 (08:17):
For all his issues. One thing you cannot say. This
man looked after the door when Chris Pines was not there.
I can't tell you her she was raised. But we
also learn that he has been lying to her and
claimed midtime that you know, they ran away because they
wanted riches, even though we know that it was for
the tablet to bring back her dead mum, which again
(08:37):
not a good idea. We've all lived that kind of
monkey's poor story many at times. But Borge is also
revealed to be in cahoots with the Red Wizards, and
Sophina just like lives with him. She's like his personal magician,
personal wizard.
Speaker 1 (08:55):
Bodyguard, right hand person, although she, as will be revealed,
has her own plot.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
Oh yeah, you grow.
Speaker 1 (09:03):
So now it's very personal of course, between Edgin Forge
and Hulga. Edgan wants the tablet to bring his wife back,
he wants his daughter back, he wants his entire life back,
and so in order to do that and bring down Forge.
He needs to assemble a team capable of doing all
those things. So we get Simon. He's back the self
deprecating sorcerer with serious self esteem issues, serious imposter syndrome issues,
(09:29):
and like a magical heirloom that he is scared that
he doesn't have the skill or power to use.
Speaker 2 (09:37):
We meet Doric.
Speaker 1 (09:38):
Played by Sophia Lillis.
Speaker 3 (09:39):
Wonderful costing you want to cost Jean Gray incredible, so excited.
Speaker 2 (09:46):
It's not going to be.
Speaker 3 (09:49):
Enough.
Speaker 2 (09:49):
But maybe she's young, Jean, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
Doric.
Speaker 3 (09:51):
Yeah that it says that's kill a costing, And I
feel like, as somebody who is not well versed in
D and D, I've I've dipped my toes and I
have lots of friends who are I have a friend
who's helping me DM a game called Jewels. He's amazing.
But I felt like once Doric is introduced, I really
felt like we were in D and D. Now you
(10:12):
know the kind of transformation teefling really good stuff.
Speaker 1 (10:17):
So Doric is a teefling Druid. Teeflings are part human,
part infernal. They have horns, they have tails, they have
magical ancestry. And they can shape shift. Doric is also
a resistance fighter and she is working to protect the
forest and forest communities from the industrial sprawl in the region.
(10:39):
She does not like humans, and they are various plans,
but she decides to sign on. So the entire the
job that they take on is relatively straightforward. Break into
the vault, get the tablet, escape, clear Edgan's name on
(11:00):
Edgin's side, get Kure back, and bring his wife back
to life. Okay, but this is D and D and
it just goes immensely sideways ways. So the first thing
they need is some sort of magical item in order
to bypass the vault. This turns out to be the
Helm of Disjunction. In order to get it, they go
(11:22):
to Holga's ex flame, ex husband Marlman Bradley Cooper, who
shows up for a really, really fun and sincere and
heartfelt five minutes of this movie.
Speaker 3 (11:34):
Yeah, it's absolutely wild how every single diversion feels like
it is necessary to the emotional plot of the movie,
even though it absolutely is the kind of nonsense diversions
that you go on when your DM's like what do
you want to do and you're like, well, actually I
need to go back and talk to my lover who's
half my size, so I can't go on this shid like, okay, cool.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
He leads them to a bunch of dead guys who
died in a battle who our friends need to talk
to to tell them where the helm ended up at
and that really fun talking to the dead guys. Sequence
leads them to leads them to Zenc Yendar played by
(12:18):
Reggae John Page of Bridgertren fame. He is a human paladin,
basically a holy warrior with uh divine stuff going on.
Speaker 2 (12:30):
Now.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
Zenk is from Thay. He's one of these stadans, but
he's like a nice guy, an honorable guy, not an
evil Red Wizard. He does not lie, he does not
cross his morals or any kind of ethical lines. He
is like the most sincere good guy. Imagine that he's sick.
(12:52):
He is a very good fighter, and he agrees to
help the team access the under Dark in order to
retrieve the helm because again, he's a right and he
believes in the honor of their quest. Meanwhile, Sofina, what's
her plan? What's the Red Wizard's plan? They they have
a much larger plan. So the Red Wizards are of
(13:12):
They are bad, they are necroanswers, they are sickos. They're
like if the sith ran an entire magical region, and
Forge is relatively simple. He wants money and power and
then really that's it. But Sofina is using Forge's political
ascendancy to unleash a Red Wizard plot. She wants to
(13:37):
cast this like death spell over a packed colisseum and
in never Winter and turn all the civilians there into
like a magical zombie army. And so the vaultice turns
into like a basically a save the world mission, from
like a very personal like found Family mission into like
(13:57):
something much more important. The final heist is classic D
and D. It is overplanned, none of the plans work,
and it's full of improvisation. So the plan is to
use the High Sun Games, which is like a gladiator
style festival hosted by Forge, to distract the masses as
(14:19):
cover for the heist. While the crowd is watching you know,
basically death games happening in front of their eyes, the
team will sneak into the vault using Simon's freshly met
mastered magic and the helmet of Disjunction, but Forges rigged
it he's aware that this might happen. He moved the treasure,
(14:42):
and he set the vault as a trap, so instead
of breaking in, the crew walks into a magical prison
and it looks like game over until Edgin the barred pivots.
They escape by exploiting a portal painting Simon created earlier,
which they attach to a moving cart of fish and
it's a whole wonderful set piece. And as they are
(15:07):
doing this, they use it to the portal to transfer
Forger's stolen treasure directly into the colisseum. The crowd turns
on Forge. Forge loses the people and he decides to
flee with as much treasure as he can carry. He
makes for the docks. He snatches Kira. He's like loading
a boat with all the loot in the fucking gold.
But then Edgin and the crew get there and they
(15:30):
stemy him in humiliating fashion, and eventually he will end
up in the very same prison that Holga and Edgin
escape from. So Fina then makes her move. She reveals
herself as a necromancer. Zomba Fies begins to zombafi the
arena and hear what's so wonderful about the structure of
this movie, in the climax in particular, is like much
(15:53):
like what makes Marvel's The Avengers work is you have
a lot of characters here, but all their emotional arc
pretty much they all pay off. So Simon is like
now confident in his magic, he you know, locks into
his power and gets into a spell duel with a
red wizard where he holds his own. Doric is no
(16:15):
longer like turning into animals to run from the fight.
She's turning into like her full owl bear form in
order to get into the fight, and she like rag dolls.
Sofina at one pint Holga basically sacrifice a strong one,
sacrifices herself to protect Kira, takes a fatal wound and dies,
and Edgin basically for the first time in the course
(16:39):
of the movie. He had realized this earlier before he
lost his family, but now he's discovering it, realizes that
it's about this. It's about this found family is more
important than any personal goal that he has. So they
defeat Sophina through trust and teamwork, and they're leveled up abilities. Uh,
(17:02):
the treasure falls, the curse breaks, our heroes win and
now Edge in his face with this terrible choice. What
to do with the tablet. He can bring his wife back,
which he's been planning to do this whole time, but
of course instead he brings Holga back and she's like,
why did you do this? But we know why he
did it because, like this found family is so important.
Speaker 3 (17:19):
And also, let's be real, bringing back somebody who's been
dead for like five years, it's never gonna go well,
that basically gonna be a big goog.
Speaker 2 (17:29):
Just just bringing her back. It's like alone, nap, It's
a slight hiccup.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
She'd been dead ten minutes.
Speaker 2 (17:34):
Fine, she hasn't started like blessing yet.
Speaker 1 (17:37):
So our heroes succeed. They get statues, Kira knows the truth,
she loves her dad, they have a relationship again. Zinc
Uh you know, wanders off into the into paletin legend
and our heroes walk off into the next campaign. A
wonderful movie. All in all, Forge ends up back in prison.
(17:57):
He tries to escape with a very similar scheme that
our friends used and let's just say it goes poorly.
That wonderful movie, let's talk about it, Rosie, your thoughts,
your feeling.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
I mean, I love this movie.
Speaker 3 (18:11):
D and D Hat Hat D and D hat give
me the hat, I will wear it.
Speaker 2 (18:15):
I love this movie.
Speaker 3 (18:16):
I think it's super charming, so many good fantastic creature effects,
practical effects, creature designs. Even as someone who doesn't play
a lot of D and D but wants to get
into it more, I've read a lot of module books,
and I've read a lot of like fan versions and
homebrews and Star Wars ttpg's and stuff.
Speaker 2 (18:36):
So I just loved this movie. I could watch like
twenty of these films.
Speaker 3 (18:40):
It kind of reminds me how I felt when I
first watched the Toby maguire Spider Man movie in the
movie theater, and I literally turned around to my friends
and was like, I could watch a hundred of these.
You could just make this every year with a new villain,
a new quest, and.
Speaker 2 (18:53):
I would watch it.
Speaker 3 (18:53):
And obviously I spoke that into existence, and now we
watch one Spider Man movie every year, and I'm blessed.
But in this case, I loved it. Fantastical world building,
incredible cast. I don't think there's a week link in
the movie. It doesn't have bad CGI. It's not even
a week two minutes a week.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
Like this is so watchable.
Speaker 3 (19:14):
I've watched it since it came on Netflix, even before
the show, and yeah, I just I think it's a
brilliant movie. I'm really happy we're getting to talk about it. Also,
one of my biggest takeaways though from watching it for
the pod this time, I had not played Diablo for
when this had come out originally, so I'm watching it
and I'm like, yeah, go for it, guys, you can
stop the evil Necromancer. But this time I was like, guys,
(19:38):
maybe maybe she needs to necromance those zombies, Like maybe
she needs.
Speaker 2 (19:42):
Them to help her.
Speaker 3 (19:43):
Because I am always a necromancer and Diablo. I've played
as different things, but I always go back to necromancer.
So I was definitely having some Sophina empathy where I
was like, oh, you know.
Speaker 2 (19:52):
What, maybe she just really needs her zombies guys.
Speaker 3 (19:54):
Like I've been there, I've turned people into zombies, like
I need an army of skeletons. I know.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
It was very fun. I love it.
Speaker 3 (20:02):
It's also fun like watching it again understanding more. For example,
there's a boulders Gate name drop in here, and just
some of the little Easter eggs that have transcended the
pop culture kind of realm that even I understand, which
is kind of I guess how other people feel watching.
Speaker 2 (20:17):
MCU movies and getting one of the more obvious easter eggs,
because I'm always.
Speaker 3 (20:22):
Like ten layers deep making it up in my head
that I think it relates to. But this was just
so much fun and yeah, I'm really excited to talk
more about it and to tap in super producer Aaron,
who will join us after this break where we will
roll Natural twenties and then to be doing vicious mockery
(20:43):
or something on our sponsors.
Speaker 1 (21:00):
And we're back. We'd like to welcome now our super
producer Aaron to tell us how this movie is actually
structured like an actual run of D and D.
Speaker 4 (21:11):
Yeah, and I think I loved your recap, Jason. I
think one of the things you said in there was
perfect for why this movie really does capture Dungeon and
Dragons experience like playing the game, because it is all
about overplanning and all of those plans going horribly wrong
and then you creatively figure out what to do next.
(21:31):
That the Dungeons and Dragons is cooperative storytelling with your
friends that you're sitting around the table with and then
you get to play some elaborate and exaggerated character, and
you as a group exhibit absolutely horrible problem solving throughout
the entire experience, and.
Speaker 3 (21:49):
Every choice is like the wrong choice or like a
choice that's just a bit too late.
Speaker 4 (21:54):
Yes, yes, and you sit there with your group of
friends talking through what the possible solution. One of my
favorite scenes in this is the bridge scene where they
have to get across the bridge. There's a very elaborate
set of steps you need to make. It's every fifth stone,
and then you go laterally until you meet the middle,
and then it's every third stone you go laterally the
(22:14):
other direction, And while he's giving this explanation, Simon just
absent mindedly puts his foot on the wrong stone. The
bridge collapses, and the party now has to figure out
how do they get across this chasm? Yeap, And this
is like a perfect example of something that will happen
in a D and D game where you are presented
with an obstacle. The DM dungeon master has probably come
(22:36):
up with a pretty easy way for you to figure
it out, and without knowing, your party just messes it
up someway and you have to figure out something new
and so In this scene where the party's trying to
figure out how to get across, Houlgas suggests tying a
rope to her axe and throwing it across the chasm
to the floating platform and everyone climbing across her makeshift
(23:02):
hook shot. Basically, and this, this kind of solution to
me is the Bob Dylan or Boondock Saints poster that
every college male had on their wall and the late Oughts,
where like every D and D group at some point
has found a rope in their inventory and tried to
use it in some creative way to climb up or
across something and it doesn't ever work. But it's just
(23:25):
that process of like everyone looking at their character sheet
and saying, well, I've got this, can we use this?
I have this spell, I can make us, I can
make things smell like fresh cut grass. Does that help
in any way with our distraction tactics? And then of course,
like Zenk as a character feels very much like the
dungeon master's playable character who's just there to help them
(23:48):
and usher them along and along those lines, oftentimes a
DM will like provide some solution to you if you
if you guys are stuck. And in this I really
feel like the hither thither staff just happens to be
something that Holga has and Simon happens to recognize it,
and it's the perfect way for them to get across.
Cool great use of magic like that is a real
(24:11):
spell that you can use. And in fact, a lot
of the items from the movie Wizards of the Coast
introduced like a free item pack, So if you are
interested in playing D and D and you want to
use these characters or these items, all of it is
available for free, fun way to just jump in and
get like some of these familiar things. But I mean
(24:32):
it's not just that, like the fact that as a
DM you can come up and pre plan all these
things and you can like put together an elaborate discussion
tree that you expect to happen with this really important
character and then the party ignores them, or the party
(24:53):
he does something and they die, and then it's like, well,
now I have to completely come up with some other
thing on fly And that's one of the most fun things.
And like one of the groups that I DM for
involves a boo who was one of our producers, and
to be fair, I think he actually may have missed
this session. But we were running a a like a
(25:14):
scene in a town, and I had a bunch of
goblins that were disguised magically as little kids. So there's
all these little kids running around the town and I
wanted they all looked very suspicious. They were all wearing red,
and I wanted our party to like investigate who these
little kids were. And one of the players rolled really poorly,
(25:35):
and he happened to be like investigating the kid that
was standing next to the well, and I was like,
you rolled a one that is like that's a natural failure,
critical failure. I have to punish you. And so his
punishment was that he went to investigate this child and
accidentally bumped into them and they fell down the well.
And it was just like that was not the plan
(25:56):
at all, but you did so poorly, something had to happen.
So there are so many great things where you're reacting
and you come up with all these plans, things don't
work out as a group, you figure out something new
and you move on, and so in that way it
does really the movie to me felt so much like
(26:16):
playing a game with your friends and everyone has these
like I said, exaggerated character traits, you know, like Simon
is so unsure of himself and Poulga is so like
cut and dry. Zenke is like Drax where he doesn't
understand any sort of sarcasm or anything.
Speaker 2 (26:35):
It's amazing.
Speaker 4 (26:36):
And then the other thing is like they use magic
really well in this and and it's very good representation
of playing it in the game in particular, like you
see little uses of spells, Rosie, like you're talking about
like these easter eggs that maybe you wouldn't notice, like
Sophina uses frost touch to chill Hugh Grant's tea where
(26:57):
she her finger becomes iced and she just sticks it.
Speaker 3 (27:00):
Okay, so you're what I was going to say, Aaron,
another thing that I really that bring true to me
about this and I haven't. This is really just such
a silly thing. But it was one of those things
that you can't plan for where when our DM Jewles
was DM in this mini game with me and Nick
and Jewles was playing and dming, I had written that
(27:21):
my worst you know, your secret enemy, I had written
that his name was Larry, And then when we finally
got to play, Nick's character was called Larry completely coincidental,
and then we had to essentially like write in a
storyline about why I hated him and he was my nemesis,
(27:41):
and it was just because we both chose the same name.
So I do think that there's this kind of chaotic
collaborative nature of D and D that I really love,
because there is an aspect to it where you can
really never.
Speaker 2 (27:53):
Know what people are going to do.
Speaker 4 (27:55):
And speaking of names, whether or not they did this intentionally,
Jarnathan is the exact kind of name that people come
up with in the midst of the game when they're like, oh,
who's my character, It's JARNI. I don't know that's such
a name that someone would come up with in the
middle of.
Speaker 1 (28:14):
The game trying to think of something.
Speaker 4 (28:16):
And one other like really cool Easter egg with the
magic I thought was a lot of spells and dungeon
and dragons require concentration, so when you cast something, you
can only concentrate on one spell, and if your concentration
is broken, the spell ends. Not every spell requires this,
but a lot of the really powerful ones do, and
so for instance, Sophia in the beginning of the fight
(28:38):
at the end casts animate objects on I think it's
the statue in the fountain and that comes to life
and it's attacking everyone, and then Doric uses like a
thing of garlic or whatever and just slingshots it at
Sophia and it hits her. She loses concentration and the
animate object ends. So it's a nice like example of
(29:00):
how that works in game, where you don't have to
do something super damaging, but if you can just knock
them out of concentration, you can end their spell, which
is a really fun way of interacting in battle.
Speaker 3 (29:10):
Yeah, Jason, you have some You did some really good
fun facts with this, and I think a great one
of why we're even having this conversation is the fact that,
like the directors are like massive nuts.
Speaker 1 (29:23):
That's true. More on that in fun facts, Aaron, thank
you so much for joining us. Let's go to quick
let's go to fun facts quip facting. Yeah, okay, first up,
(29:48):
fun facts. Box office for this movie Dungeons and Dragons
hat ninety three million domestic, one hundred and eleven international,
two hundred million worldwide. This is working off a budget
of a reported hundred and fifty millions. Are you're talking about,
you know, three hundred something million? It was not a hit,
(30:09):
not a flop. But if you're wondering why we haven't
seen Dungeons and Dragon two, it's because it didn't make any.
Speaker 3 (30:15):
It didn't make half a million dollars, which is what
they always want a movie to make. And yeah, as
we were kind of hinting at in the half a billion, yeah, yeah,
And so as we were talking about, the film is
co directed by Jonathan Goldstein and John Francis Daily, who
is sad and if I'm not mistaken, that is the same.
(30:36):
They're the same to people who wrote Spider Man Homecoming,
I believe when so like they are banger writers. I
think that that's a big part. They obviously love games
and gaming. Game Night held another hilarious movie, and I
would say like, yeah, this this film kind of has
that emc unice to it, but complimentary because I do
(31:00):
think when this first came out the trailer, people were like, Oh,
it's trying to be like the MCU, it's trying to
be quippy. But I actually think it's much more of
like a princess bride type situation.
Speaker 1 (31:09):
I think that, Yeah, I think you're right. I think
they establish basically I think Goldstend and daily their voice
in Game Night, which is lots of heists, lots of action, comedy,
really fun story set pieces, and always a collection of
(31:30):
emotionally wounded weirdos. Chris Pine. In this movie, Chris Pine
took the role of Edg and the Bard because he
wanted to make a fantasy movie that his kids could watch.
And he's described the tone of this movie as quote,
Rosie's your point, the Princess Bride meets Monty Python meets
Game of Thrones.
Speaker 3 (31:47):
Yeah, okay, I like it, And also aesthetically I understand
what he means. It's like, what if there was a
PG thirteen version of Game of Ferns that you could
watch with your kids, even though we all know kids
watch Game of Ferns.
Speaker 1 (31:57):
That's right.
Speaker 3 (31:58):
Oh, this was another one you pulled out that I
absolutely loved that I did not know, but obviously as
the number one little guy lover, I was impressed by
the fat dragon. I love the comically overweight dragon. I
love that he's just eaten it up having a good time.
And his name in the law is Thember Child. What
a name, Okay, And he's a real monster in D
(32:19):
and D Law, known for guarding the dwarf and City
of Gratsluff and for being well, large and unmotivated, reliable.
He's basically like the Garfield of the Dungeons and Dragon universe,
which you know I'm always supporting.
Speaker 1 (32:34):
This is a film in Hugh Grant's villain era, maybe
his best errors. He would describe it his freak show era.
In the last decade, Hugh Grant has pivoted from his
early kind of rom com sweetheart roles to a bunch
of roles in which he is a scene stealing scoundrel.
He's played a fraudster in Paddington II, he has played
(32:57):
a sleazy pi and the gentleman, a sociopathic husband in
The Undoing I love that, and now the double crossing
con man and jungeones and dragons. Quote. This is what
I get offered these days, Hugh Grant said during the
press run for Willie Walker. Quote, I'm in the freak
show phase of my career. I do baddies, psychopaths, weirdos,
(33:19):
perverts and now believe we hope it continues.
Speaker 2 (33:24):
Never media trained this man. You cannot media train this fan.
Speaker 3 (33:28):
He never allow And it's very interesting because obviously also
most recently he took that to a new level with Heretic,
where he was kind of, you know, the true true
villain rather than these.
Speaker 2 (33:38):
Kind of like odd maybe you root for them villains.
Speaker 3 (33:41):
I think this is one of his best villain era
performances because he plays the con man so well. Speaking
of people playing parts well, Reggae John Page in this
What Happened.
Speaker 2 (33:53):
He's playing lawful good. He should have been a hero
after Bridgeton made him a global star.
Speaker 3 (33:59):
He left the show after season one, which is why
we have never seen him again. Very sad because it
probably would have just been a cameo. But also I
understand that breaking through in a show like that, you
might worry about getting pigeonholed. So he left the show
aiming for leading man status. But Jason, let's talk about it,
because he was in the gray man flop from the
Russo Brothers. Dungeons and Dragons wonderful but did not get
(34:21):
him to kill me to break yeah, and Dungeons and
Dragons like it did not.
Speaker 2 (34:25):
Break him out. He's not a main character.
Speaker 3 (34:27):
He is kind of your perfect straight man, this kind
of dead pan hilarity and as we kind of we
talked about this in prepro but the buzz on Regge
has noticeably called He's still circling major projects like the
Saint reboot interesting and Butch Cassidy series of Dot's Very
(34:48):
Interesting is going nowhere right now.
Speaker 2 (34:50):
But also I just.
Speaker 3 (34:51):
Think my theory that I have that I've talked to
many people about, and I mentioned it in the discord,
I think at one point I'm pretty sure he was
announced as being like a potential cast member and an
MCU thing, but they didn't.
Speaker 2 (35:04):
Say who, and then that was kind of pulled.
Speaker 3 (35:07):
I think that they should have cost him as read Richards,
though we got Pedro Pascals.
Speaker 2 (35:10):
I'm feeling happy about that.
Speaker 3 (35:12):
But I also do think that for a time they
were probably considering him for the Casper Cole version of
Black Panther, who's like a cop, an African American cop,
and he took over the mantle for a little while.
Was not particularly beloved, So I think it makes sense
that they didn't go in that direction.
Speaker 2 (35:28):
But this movie reminds you reggae. He could be a
movie star.
Speaker 3 (35:32):
He could have been he could have been a star,
He could have been somebody we got a note of, sir.
Speaker 2 (35:38):
All you had to do was.
Speaker 3 (35:39):
Just show up once every season in Bridgeton and keep
that money going, keep your face on those posters in
that Netflix smart.
Speaker 2 (35:47):
Category that everybody loves so much. But you know what,
good for him?
Speaker 3 (35:50):
I feel like he every time I watch him in
something great like Dungeons and Dragons, I'll be all the
first season of Ridgeton. I'm like, sir, you can do this.
You got a You know, he probably could have been
in Gladia It too. I think he has that kind
of juice.
Speaker 1 (36:04):
Instead, he was in the Great Man flop Dungeons and
Dragon's Hat. Good movie, but a cameo and a and
a ad for Audi cars.
Speaker 2 (36:13):
Oh my god, get together? Who is your agent? Get
a new agent? So you're very fantastical. You can do it.
Speaker 1 (36:22):
Oh listen if you want to hear some Hollywood scuttle
but rumors. I apparently like his team was in turmoil
about this decision to lead Bridgerton, and there was It
was not like a unified team decision. Like one part
was like, don't do it, another part was like do
it and we see the results next up. The magic
(36:44):
and the effects in Dungeons and Dragons hat mostly practical.
Over eighty creatures were built with practical effects by Legacy Effects,
the same team behind The Mandalorian and Iron Man and
other films including The Tobacxi. The Cat People were practical
actual costume Jonathan actual costume, the Dragon Guard animatronic head.
(37:07):
We love practical effects, as you know here at Extra Vision.
Speaker 2 (37:09):
So this is all. I think.
Speaker 3 (37:10):
You can see it in every single shot where there
is some brilliant creature work. I just think it's such
a high point of this movie, and I think it
will continue to be a part of why this film
is gaining that cult kind of following. It's interesting because
we've talked about this a lot on the podcast. But
you know, in the olden days, when me and Jason
(37:31):
were young, you could make a movie like Scott Pilgrim
that did not hit at all on in the theaters.
It did not make the money back, but it made
a ton of money on home video. Now, of course,
the streaming version of that is you put it on
Netflix and it gets a certain amount of views, but
that does not necessarily give the creators or cost any
extra money.
Speaker 2 (37:51):
It's not the same as DVD.
Speaker 3 (37:53):
Sales and home video sales, which you know Matt Damon
and Ben Affleck have kind of spoken quite extensively about
being the reason they were able to make a living
in Hollywood because their movies would do really great on
home video. I hope that the popularity of this on
Netflix and the conversation it is garnering means we will
get more D and D storytelling, and that is our
final fun fact is as of now, there's no official sequel,
(38:18):
though there was talk of a TV spin off.
Speaker 2 (38:20):
But Chris Pine is he the best Chris. I don't know.
We got a lot of Chriss, but he's doing. He's up.
He's one of our great chris Is.
Speaker 3 (38:28):
And he was in an interview with games Radar he
was basically like, I don't know anything, but I feel
pretty confident that it may happen, and asked if he
would be happy to return. He replied absolutely, because he's
smart and he can know a good thing when he
sees it.
Speaker 1 (38:43):
Next up the Omnibus, and now the Omnibus where Laura
and Understanding come together. Let's talk about dungeons and Dragons
as a as a piece of culture, and I'm talking
about the original dungeon Dragons. The Blueprins change, whether you
know it or not, the kind of ore text for
(39:07):
many video games, many styles of story. It's many comic books,
any kind of tale that begins with you enter a tavern,
what do you do? Owes itself to D and D
is a game, but it is also, you know, an
incredible cultural institution and also a generator of both joy
(39:33):
and also significant panic in the culture. Let's talk about
the origins. Game was born in the early nineteen seventies
in Wisconsin and was created by the legendary Gary Geax,
who was doing like the nerdiest pre computer thing that
you could do, which is designing a designing tabletop war
(39:55):
games in his basement. He meets a guy named Dave Arnison,
another gamer from me Minnesota, and together they create this thing.
What if instead of commanding armies as table tabletop games
were doing at the time, stuff like that. Yes, players
controlled a single character in a fantasy world, collaborating with
(40:16):
other characters on quests, and that idea individual character, characters,
collaborative storytelling, party based adventures was a big bang for
so many other things. In nineteen seventy four, they released
the first edition of Dungeons and Dragons, three little rule
books in a white box. It cost ten bucks you know,
(40:37):
it had very low production value, like it looked it's
like giving.
Speaker 3 (40:41):
Nothing teenage may Ninja thous issue one where it was
just like something. It looks like the home made it
and then sent like five hundred compets at the comic shops.
Speaker 1 (40:50):
Yes, it's giving like small town accountant spreadsheet vibes. But
it was the beginning of a genre, and it quickly
spread like wildfire through hobbyist circles, through college dorms, high
school kids. And this was a time when you know,
fantasy fiction was starting to find its second era legs.
(41:15):
You know, Tolkien and others had started the movement some
forty years earlier now at this point. But because of
the Lord of the Rings paperbacks, because of the Lord
of the Rings animated very weird animated movie, because of
other cultural references like led Zeppelin dropping multiple Lord of
(41:36):
the Rings references in multiple songs, all of a sudden,
you have this generation of post hippie era kids who
are smoking weed.
Speaker 2 (41:47):
They in that mom's bayfield. That's what you need.
Speaker 1 (41:50):
Yeah, they don't feel like they fit into the kind
of like jock business suit hierarchy. They're weirder and they're
looking for something much weirder, but also that brings a
community together, and then you have the explosion of D
and D through the seventies and eighties, new campaigns, new rules.
Kids are creating entire worlds and binders drawing maps in
(42:12):
math class. If you watch a Strange Stranger Things, then
you've gotten a whiff of this.
Speaker 3 (42:17):
No, so you Stranger Things is so deeply, deeply inspired
by dungeons and dragons.
Speaker 1 (42:24):
So you know, this little kind of lark that Geegax
and Anderson started begins to make millions and millions of dollars.
And that is where the fear sets in. We go
to the eighties, it's Reagan's America, meaning very conservative, very moralistic.
We're worried about outsider threats, including the devil Satan.
Speaker 2 (42:50):
Maybe it's there, and it's stage.
Speaker 3 (42:52):
It absolutely sucks, destroys America for a long time.
Speaker 1 (42:58):
Across the country, this wave of moral panics starts to
set in, and the fear is basically, okay, what if
Satan is reaching our kids through culture through heavy metal music,
through rock music, dungeons, through.
Speaker 2 (43:11):
Dungeons and dragon called dungeons.
Speaker 3 (43:14):
It's obviously ebol that prisoners should be in there, so.
Speaker 1 (43:18):
Wild claims begin to circulate that D and D was
tied to suicide, that it was tied to mental illness,
that it was a gateway to devil worship, and this
panic kind of crested with a real life tragedy. James
Dallas Egbert, who is a college student, disappeared in nineteen
seventy nine. The rumors that circulated said he's got lost
(43:43):
in the university's steam tunnels because he was involved in
a D and D like LARPing event, when in reality,
he was like a kid who was struggling with depression
and D and D had nothing to do with it.
But the stories about his death kind of stuck. Then
came Mazes and Months made for TV movie starring Yeah
Young Tom Hanks, where D and D style gaming literally
(44:05):
drives one of the characters insane. In the real world,
groups like badd bothered about Dungeons and Dragons sprang up
to fight what they saw as like satanic indoctrination for
the youth, with various activists making wild claims, including that
like spells, these spells in the game were real and
(44:25):
that could like actually turn your kid. Your kid could
be unleashing actual email like satanic yea through the magic.
It just absolutely bizarre stuff, but it was enough for
sixty minutes ye to do an episode on it like
this was this was a real moment in American history.
Speaker 3 (44:44):
The publishers like incredibly sad because, as you said, it
started as a place where people could be outsiders, but
then that outsider community was othered in this space. And
this led not only obviously to like you were saying,
the kind of story that came out when James Dallas
Eggbert died, but also this idea of D and D
(45:05):
and Satanic panic, and it was a key part in
the West Memphis three being arrested and then imprisoned wrongly
for you know.
Speaker 2 (45:15):
Two decades, Watch Paradise Lost.
Speaker 3 (45:17):
Those are great documentaries, and also the later documentary that
was made by none other than Peter Jackson. And I
think often about how sad it is that and this
is something the last season of Stranger Things I think
did get right was how sad it is that this
can be such a powerful, incredible space for people, but
then from the outside it just ends up making them
(45:39):
like more marginalized or seen as a threat.
Speaker 2 (45:41):
And it's really sad because it's just storytelling.
Speaker 3 (45:44):
You know, but the Satanic Panic movement was was really
real and really dangerous.
Speaker 1 (45:48):
To be to be fair to these freaks who were
worried about the Satanic Panic. You know, rock bands and
metal bands of the era were playing with that fristen
of danger, using satanic imagery, using satanic uh wording and
references in their lyrics where they actually Satanists. No, nonetheless,
(46:11):
you know, we're not talking about the the Nordic death
metal mounded people like, right, right, yeah, we're not talking
about that. So, you know, these people who are worried
about this so called Satanic panic, we're seeing things that
they believed were truly.
Speaker 3 (46:32):
Even being pushed by that pushed that that idea was
pushed onto them by the media as well.
Speaker 1 (46:38):
That they were sincerely they were sincerely deluded.
Speaker 3 (46:42):
You know.
Speaker 1 (46:44):
Now the publishers at TSR were forced to do damage control.
Now they removed references to demons, they were references to devils.
They toned down some of the artwork, renamed monsters. Tried
to weather the storm, and they did. D and D
of course survived. The panic eventually burned itself out. Studies
(47:06):
various studies debunked the claims the movement itself just kind
of petered out because it once the hearings started, Once
congressional hearings on music and culture and the influence of
the Devil actually started in front of people that people
could watch on TV, it became manifestly ridiculous. And a
(47:30):
lot of the kids who played D and D are
now the kids who are moving culture, running culture, and
D and D went mainstream. Fast forward to now, Dungeons
and Dragons is just like in a whole different thing.
It's an institution now, celebrities play it, actors film campaigns
for Twitter and YouTube. There are podcasts, the various hit
(47:53):
podcasts that have people playing D and D on it, cartoons,
merchandise conventions.
Speaker 3 (48:00):
Currently Etway Dungeons and Dragon show twenty sided Tavern that
I believe is an official Dungeons and Dragons show that
they bring people in to do different campaigns. Now it's
part of the cultural lexicon in a way that I
think no one could have perceived when it was created.
Speaker 1 (48:17):
That's right, and D and D has in fact become
integral to the way we tell stories and we perceive stories,
video games, novels, movies, even the way we think about
like teamwork and assembling teams and making progress and leveling
up characters. It all bears the stamp of Dungeons and Dragons,
and the cultural legacy is enormous. The level up mechanic
(48:40):
that's baked into any number of things, video games, movies,
et cetera. In fitness apps comes from D and D.
The idea of a campaign, a shared, serialized, collaborative narrative
that unfolds organically over.
Speaker 2 (48:58):
Time, came from DNA D.
Speaker 1 (49:00):
The iconic polyhedral dice set from the from the earliest
humble D four to the mighty D twenty. It didn't
just shape tabletop gaming. It rewired how video games are structured,
how video games structure, chance stats, criticals, character builds. All
(49:21):
that stuff comes from d D. Why does your elden
Ring characters damage range have a ceiling and a floor.
Why do you sometimes miss an attack that you have
an eighty seven percent chance to hit because your character
has high accuracy? Thank or blame Dungeons and Dragons for this.
When early computer games like Ultimar Balder's Gates started adapting
(49:42):
tabletop mechanics, they brought that dice logic with them. Hit points,
armor classes, defensive stats, offensive stats, et cetera, and all
of that has stuck around today. Whether you're specking out
a character in like Elon Musk Path of Exile, or.
Speaker 2 (50:02):
Or hoping.
Speaker 1 (50:05):
Or hoping your your critical attack lands in Final Fantasy,
you're basically just doing the virtual version of rolling the
dice in Dungeons and Dragons. Even the way we relate
to fiction has changed. D and D trained an entire
generation to collaborate on stories, to improvise within cis josure.
I don't think it. I don't think it's an accident
(50:25):
that a lot of the ascendancy, this, this post eighties
and nineties ascendancy of Dungeons and Dragons involves people who
are involved in improv theater and improvisational comedy. So yeah,
the game has been through it, and it's come through.
It was banned, but now it's here. It's part of
a cultural institution, which I think is a hopeful thing.
(50:46):
Look at it, look at look at Dungeons and Dragons.
It can be attacked, it could be misunderstood, it can
be almost banned, and it can still be a major
pillar of our of our culture. We've we did Andrews
of Dragons here to stay, to.
Speaker 3 (51:02):
Stay, Baby, you can't get rid of it because all
you need is a friend and a basement and an imagination.
It's incredibly accessible and that's why it's still here.
Speaker 1 (51:10):
In the next few episodes of X ray Vision, we're
diving into Daredevil Born Again episode seven, and then Friday
our reactions to everything that happens in Nintendo Durren that's
in for this episode. Next You're listening. X ray Vision
is hosted by Jason Concepcion and Rosie Knight and is
(51:30):
a production of iHeart Podcasts.
Speaker 3 (51:32):
Our executive producers are Joel Monique and Aaron Kaufman.
Speaker 1 (51:36):
Our supervising producer is Abuzafar.
Speaker 3 (51:38):
Our producers are Common Laurent Dean Jonathan and Bay Wax.
Speaker 1 (51:42):
A theme song is by Brian Vasquez, with alternate theme
songs by Aaron Kaufman.
Speaker 3 (51:47):
Special thanks to Soul Rubin, Chris Lord, Kenny Goodman, and Heidi.
Speaker 2 (51:51):
Our disc called moderate, though
Hello, Jason and I am dear Old Rosier.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Tonight from the World.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
Of Ancients and Dragons and welcome back to Answer vision
of the podcast where we dive deep to your favorite shows, movies,
comics of pop culture. Company from our podcast where we
are bringing you three action pack episodes a week plus news.
Speaker 3 (00:36):
In today's episode, we're doing a little Airlock time capsule
mash up. We rewatched the very underrated Dungeons and Dragons
Honor among Thieves movie, very exceptionally charming movie with a
delightful cast, which, in case you missed it in theaters
as many people did, is now available on Netflix to stream.
(00:56):
So we're gonna be talking about that. We're gonna roll
for initiative. Was this movie successful and feeling like an
actual game of D and D. We will be tapping
in super producer and D and D DM Aaron, and
we got a little quick facts about the movie. We
got a delightful omnibus coming background on D and D.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
So basically, you guys asked us for D and D.
Speaker 3 (01:18):
We did the listener service and guess what we're D
and D delivering.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
Let's go, okay, let's talk about this movie. We open
D and d Hat with Edgin Darvas played by Chris
Pines parole hearing, he and we get and in this
(01:42):
parole hearing, which is wonderfully structured, we get the entire
download of how the rascal Edgin Darvis managed to end
up in this prison. He was once a Harper, which
is kind of like the Magic Cia, but like with Country.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
All the time.
Speaker 3 (02:02):
Though when I was, I was like, you were just
an You were like a little informant, huh, okay.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
A little bit.
Speaker 4 (02:09):
So.
Speaker 1 (02:09):
The Harpers are a secretive network of like very learned people, spies, scholars,
and folks who do good. They go across the land
fighting corruption and tyranny across Farren, which is like the
the main setting of Dungeons and Dragons the world, uh
and they and specifically a lot of this takes place
(02:30):
in an area called the Forgotten Realms. Edgin is a
good guy. He spied on a lot of people. As
Rosie mentioned, he informed on a lot of people.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
In the context of the movie, they were bad. Okay,
they were bad guys.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
They were bad. He lived an honorable life, and he
had a beautiful wife and a wonderful baby daughter. And
he lived according to a very strict moral code. But
then he steals like a cursed thing from the Red
Wizards of Theay and he didn't understand that they could
track it wherever it went, and he brought it home
and that ended up with his wife getting murdered in retaliation.
(03:06):
He blames himself for this. He gets very very depressed,
and he ends up in a life of crime, which
is how he meets Holga played by Michelle Rodriguez, who
is our barbarian. She gets exiled from her tribe because
she falls in love with an outsider. She carries a
very heavy axe, and she knows a lot about axes.
(03:28):
She is emotionally distant, and they immediately become fast friends.
Crucially and one of the things I love about this movie,
not romantically, another film, another story in more hacky hands,
would have been like, we need a love We need
a love story between Holgan and Gano. They are just
(03:52):
very very good friends, patonically great friends. It's wonderful. So
Holga helps Edgin raised Kira, his daughter, and you know,
they go around robin Hood stuff they steal from the rich,
and they steal a lot and they're getting away with
(04:13):
it for the most part. Until they get involved with
the hest that goes wrong. Fairly simple job. It seems
like infiltrate a high security.
Speaker 3 (04:21):
Going to be that lost job the classic of course,
classic classic, I mean the last job.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
Infiltrate a high security magic vault to steal the tablet
of Reawakening, which is a magical item that can resurrect
the dead. And of course Edgin wants this to bring
his wife back so his daughter can have a mother
and his Their team includes Simon.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
I love him, Justice Smith like.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
A magic guy, a magician with you know confidence, yes,
so Fina who is a red wizard who why did
they trust her? I don't know? And Forge Fitzwilliam played
by Hugh Grant, who is the charming rogue who you
(05:11):
know you should not try. I guess them as a
con man.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
So it's like they knew what they were getting into. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (05:17):
Also is the bread rige. Was she in the crew
or was she the one who hired them to steal it?
Speaker 2 (05:23):
Unclear? But it's not going well for them basically.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
So the high school sideways. So Fina turns on them,
reveals that she's an necromancer and very very evil. Forge
turns on them as well, and when Edgin hands him
the tablet, Forge says, I'll find a way to save
you all. I'll return and get you back. And he turns,
(05:50):
runs out of the trap and is fucking never seen. Nope,
he double crossed them. Just like that, Edgen and Holg
are arrested, tried, sentenced to a number of year in
Revel's and the maximum security prison in the frozen Wastelands
that they are currently in having their parole hearing. And
that's it.
Speaker 3 (06:09):
We have to talk about the plan because this is
one of the funniest things about the movie is like
he keeps talking about this one guy, Jonathan.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
Jonathan, Jonathan.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
He knows Jonathan. Where is he?
Speaker 1 (06:20):
He's supposed to be on the parole board.
Speaker 3 (06:22):
I feel like Jonathan would really be vibing with my
sad origin story. Now I have to say, the funniest
thing is that Jonathan does turn up and they jump
out of a window using him to fly just as
the parole board says, we approved your parole.
Speaker 2 (06:40):
They didn't need to do it.
Speaker 3 (06:42):
But Jonathan, he survived even though they used him like
a giant, you know, kite. And now they're back in
never Winter. What an opening.
Speaker 2 (06:50):
I think the opening to this movie is like one
of the.
Speaker 3 (06:52):
Best, wonderful, great does the you know, Jason, you know
this as storytellers, I always remember Karen Gillen years and
years ago on Twitter being like, never do.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
The how did I get here?
Speaker 3 (07:06):
Like rewind kind of you know, a media as opening.
But this is a great way to do that kind
of exposition without it feeling like tired or doing like
a rewind, like here's how I got here. It's so fun.
I love the Jonathan jokes. Chris Pines, It just absolutely
the delivery is so good. He's like, oh and then
(07:26):
my wife died and they're like, wow, that's so sad,
and he's like, you know, I would find it really sad.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
Jonathan. Where's Jonathan?
Speaker 3 (07:32):
Yeah, Like he is so good in this role, and
I just the whole cast is honestly fantastic.
Speaker 2 (07:37):
So they escape, good for them, and Jonathan's still alive.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
So they end up back in never Winter and they
eventually discover you know what Forge has been up to
since he betrayed them. He is now running never Winter
as the Lord of never Winter. Is basically it's like
petty dictator, although everybody loves him for whatever reason, because
he's just he is a very charming guy. Yeah, and
(08:03):
in these years he has been raising Kira as his
own daughter, who he apparently has very strong feelings for,
like he loves her in his version of what love is.
Speaker 3 (08:17):
For all his issues. One thing you cannot say. This
man looked after the door when Chris Pines was not there.
I can't tell you her she was raised. But we
also learn that he has been lying to her and
claimed midtime that you know, they ran away because they
wanted riches, even though we know that it was for
the tablet to bring back her dead mum, which again
(08:37):
not a good idea. We've all lived that kind of
monkey's poor story many at times. But Borge is also
revealed to be in cahoots with the Red Wizards, and
Sophina just like lives with him. She's like his personal magician,
personal wizard.
Speaker 1 (08:55):
Bodyguard, right hand person, although she, as will be revealed,
has her own plot.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
Oh yeah, you grow.
Speaker 1 (09:03):
So now it's very personal of course, between Edgin Forge
and Hulga. Edgan wants the tablet to bring his wife back,
he wants his daughter back, he wants his entire life back,
and so in order to do that and bring down Forge.
He needs to assemble a team capable of doing all
those things. So we get Simon. He's back the self
deprecating sorcerer with serious self esteem issues, serious imposter syndrome issues,
(09:29):
and like a magical heirloom that he is scared that
he doesn't have the skill or power to use.
Speaker 2 (09:37):
We meet Doric.
Speaker 1 (09:38):
Played by Sophia Lillis.
Speaker 3 (09:39):
Wonderful costing you want to cost Jean Gray incredible, so excited.
Speaker 2 (09:46):
It's not going to be.
Speaker 3 (09:49):
Enough.
Speaker 2 (09:49):
But maybe she's young, Jean, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
Doric.
Speaker 3 (09:51):
Yeah that it says that's kill a costing, And I
feel like, as somebody who is not well versed in
D and D, I've I've dipped my toes and I
have lots of friends who are I have a friend
who's helping me DM a game called Jewels. He's amazing.
But I felt like once Doric is introduced, I really
felt like we were in D and D. Now you
(10:12):
know the kind of transformation teefling really good stuff.
Speaker 1 (10:17):
So Doric is a teefling Druid. Teeflings are part human,
part infernal. They have horns, they have tails, they have
magical ancestry. And they can shape shift. Doric is also
a resistance fighter and she is working to protect the
forest and forest communities from the industrial sprawl in the region.
(10:39):
She does not like humans, and they are various plans,
but she decides to sign on. So the entire the
job that they take on is relatively straightforward. Break into
the vault, get the tablet, escape, clear Edgan's name on
(11:00):
Edgin's side, get Kure back, and bring his wife back
to life. Okay, but this is D and D and
it just goes immensely sideways ways. So the first thing
they need is some sort of magical item in order
to bypass the vault. This turns out to be the
Helm of Disjunction. In order to get it, they go
(11:22):
to Holga's ex flame, ex husband Marlman Bradley Cooper, who
shows up for a really, really fun and sincere and
heartfelt five minutes of this movie.
Speaker 3 (11:34):
Yeah, it's absolutely wild how every single diversion feels like
it is necessary to the emotional plot of the movie,
even though it absolutely is the kind of nonsense diversions
that you go on when your DM's like what do
you want to do and you're like, well, actually I
need to go back and talk to my lover who's
half my size, so I can't go on this shid like, okay, cool.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
He leads them to a bunch of dead guys who
died in a battle who our friends need to talk
to to tell them where the helm ended up at
and that really fun talking to the dead guys. Sequence
leads them to leads them to Zenc Yendar played by
(12:18):
Reggae John Page of Bridgertren fame. He is a human paladin,
basically a holy warrior with uh divine stuff going on.
Speaker 2 (12:30):
Now.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
Zenk is from Thay. He's one of these stadans, but
he's like a nice guy, an honorable guy, not an
evil Red Wizard. He does not lie, he does not
cross his morals or any kind of ethical lines. He
is like the most sincere good guy. Imagine that he's sick.
(12:52):
He is a very good fighter, and he agrees to
help the team access the under Dark in order to
retrieve the helm because again, he's a right and he
believes in the honor of their quest. Meanwhile, Sofina, what's
her plan? What's the Red Wizard's plan? They they have
a much larger plan. So the Red Wizards are of
(13:12):
They are bad, they are necroanswers, they are sickos. They're
like if the sith ran an entire magical region, and
Forge is relatively simple. He wants money and power and
then really that's it. But Sofina is using Forge's political
ascendancy to unleash a Red Wizard plot. She wants to
(13:37):
cast this like death spell over a packed colisseum and
in never Winter and turn all the civilians there into
like a magical zombie army. And so the vaultice turns
into like a basically a save the world mission, from
like a very personal like found Family mission into like
(13:57):
something much more important. The final heist is classic D
and D. It is overplanned, none of the plans work,
and it's full of improvisation. So the plan is to
use the High Sun Games, which is like a gladiator
style festival hosted by Forge, to distract the masses as
(14:19):
cover for the heist. While the crowd is watching you know,
basically death games happening in front of their eyes, the
team will sneak into the vault using Simon's freshly met
mastered magic and the helmet of Disjunction, but Forges rigged
it he's aware that this might happen. He moved the treasure,
(14:42):
and he set the vault as a trap, so instead
of breaking in, the crew walks into a magical prison
and it looks like game over until Edgin the barred pivots.
They escape by exploiting a portal painting Simon created earlier,
which they attach to a moving cart of fish and
it's a whole wonderful set piece. And as they are
(15:07):
doing this, they use it to the portal to transfer
Forger's stolen treasure directly into the colisseum. The crowd turns
on Forge. Forge loses the people and he decides to
flee with as much treasure as he can carry. He
makes for the docks. He snatches Kira. He's like loading
a boat with all the loot in the fucking gold.
But then Edgin and the crew get there and they
(15:30):
stemy him in humiliating fashion, and eventually he will end
up in the very same prison that Holga and Edgin
escape from. So Fina then makes her move. She reveals
herself as a necromancer. Zomba Fies begins to zombafi the
arena and hear what's so wonderful about the structure of
this movie, in the climax in particular, is like much
(15:53):
like what makes Marvel's The Avengers work is you have
a lot of characters here, but all their emotional arc
pretty much they all pay off. So Simon is like
now confident in his magic, he you know, locks into
his power and gets into a spell duel with a
red wizard where he holds his own. Doric is no
(16:15):
longer like turning into animals to run from the fight.
She's turning into like her full owl bear form in
order to get into the fight, and she like rag dolls.
Sofina at one pint Holga basically sacrifice a strong one,
sacrifices herself to protect Kira, takes a fatal wound and dies,
and Edgin basically for the first time in the course
(16:39):
of the movie. He had realized this earlier before he
lost his family, but now he's discovering it, realizes that
it's about this. It's about this found family is more
important than any personal goal that he has. So they
defeat Sophina through trust and teamwork, and they're leveled up abilities. Uh,
(17:02):
the treasure falls, the curse breaks, our heroes win and
now Edge in his face with this terrible choice. What
to do with the tablet. He can bring his wife back,
which he's been planning to do this whole time, but
of course instead he brings Holga back and she's like,
why did you do this? But we know why he
did it because, like this found family is so important.
Speaker 3 (17:19):
And also, let's be real, bringing back somebody who's been
dead for like five years, it's never gonna go well,
that basically gonna be a big goog.
Speaker 2 (17:29):
Just just bringing her back. It's like alone, nap, It's
a slight hiccup.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
She'd been dead ten minutes.
Speaker 2 (17:34):
Fine, she hasn't started like blessing yet.
Speaker 1 (17:37):
So our heroes succeed. They get statues, Kira knows the truth,
she loves her dad, they have a relationship again. Zinc
Uh you know, wanders off into the into paletin legend
and our heroes walk off into the next campaign. A
wonderful movie. All in all, Forge ends up back in prison.
(17:57):
He tries to escape with a very similar scheme that
our friends used and let's just say it goes poorly.
That wonderful movie, let's talk about it, Rosie, your thoughts,
your feeling.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
I mean, I love this movie.
Speaker 3 (18:11):
D and D Hat Hat D and D hat give
me the hat, I will wear it.
Speaker 2 (18:15):
I love this movie.
Speaker 3 (18:16):
I think it's super charming, so many good fantastic creature effects,
practical effects, creature designs. Even as someone who doesn't play
a lot of D and D but wants to get
into it more, I've read a lot of module books,
and I've read a lot of like fan versions and
homebrews and Star Wars ttpg's and stuff.
Speaker 2 (18:36):
So I just loved this movie. I could watch like
twenty of these films.
Speaker 3 (18:40):
It kind of reminds me how I felt when I
first watched the Toby maguire Spider Man movie in the
movie theater, and I literally turned around to my friends
and was like, I could watch a hundred of these.
You could just make this every year with a new villain,
a new quest, and.
Speaker 2 (18:53):
I would watch it.
Speaker 3 (18:53):
And obviously I spoke that into existence, and now we
watch one Spider Man movie every year, and I'm blessed.
But in this case, I loved it. Fantastical world building,
incredible cast. I don't think there's a week link in
the movie. It doesn't have bad CGI. It's not even
a week two minutes a week.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
Like this is so watchable.
Speaker 3 (19:14):
I've watched it since it came on Netflix, even before
the show, and yeah, I just I think it's a
brilliant movie. I'm really happy we're getting to talk about it. Also,
one of my biggest takeaways though from watching it for
the pod this time, I had not played Diablo for
when this had come out originally, so I'm watching it
and I'm like, yeah, go for it, guys, you can
stop the evil Necromancer. But this time I was like, guys,
(19:38):
maybe maybe she needs to necromance those zombies, Like maybe
she needs.
Speaker 2 (19:42):
Them to help her.
Speaker 3 (19:43):
Because I am always a necromancer and Diablo. I've played
as different things, but I always go back to necromancer.
So I was definitely having some Sophina empathy where I
was like, oh, you know.
Speaker 2 (19:52):
What, maybe she just really needs her zombies guys.
Speaker 3 (19:54):
Like I've been there, I've turned people into zombies, like
I need an army of skeletons. I know.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
It was very fun. I love it.
Speaker 3 (20:02):
It's also fun like watching it again understanding more. For example,
there's a boulders Gate name drop in here, and just
some of the little Easter eggs that have transcended the
pop culture kind of realm that even I understand, which
is kind of I guess how other people feel watching.
Speaker 2 (20:17):
MCU movies and getting one of the more obvious easter eggs,
because I'm always.
Speaker 3 (20:22):
Like ten layers deep making it up in my head
that I think it relates to. But this was just
so much fun and yeah, I'm really excited to talk
more about it and to tap in super producer Aaron,
who will join us after this break where we will
roll Natural twenties and then to be doing vicious mockery
(20:43):
or something on our sponsors.
Speaker 1 (21:00):
And we're back. We'd like to welcome now our super
producer Aaron to tell us how this movie is actually
structured like an actual run of D and D.
Speaker 4 (21:11):
Yeah, and I think I loved your recap, Jason. I
think one of the things you said in there was
perfect for why this movie really does capture Dungeon and
Dragons experience like playing the game, because it is all
about overplanning and all of those plans going horribly wrong
and then you creatively figure out what to do next.
(21:31):
That the Dungeons and Dragons is cooperative storytelling with your
friends that you're sitting around the table with and then
you get to play some elaborate and exaggerated character, and
you as a group exhibit absolutely horrible problem solving throughout
the entire experience, and.
Speaker 3 (21:49):
Every choice is like the wrong choice or like a
choice that's just a bit too late.
Speaker 4 (21:54):
Yes, yes, and you sit there with your group of
friends talking through what the possible solution. One of my
favorite scenes in this is the bridge scene where they
have to get across the bridge. There's a very elaborate
set of steps you need to make. It's every fifth stone,
and then you go laterally until you meet the middle,
and then it's every third stone you go laterally the
(22:14):
other direction, And while he's giving this explanation, Simon just
absent mindedly puts his foot on the wrong stone. The
bridge collapses, and the party now has to figure out
how do they get across this chasm? Yeap, And this
is like a perfect example of something that will happen
in a D and D game where you are presented
with an obstacle. The DM dungeon master has probably come
(22:36):
up with a pretty easy way for you to figure
it out, and without knowing, your party just messes it
up someway and you have to figure out something new
and so In this scene where the party's trying to
figure out how to get across, Houlgas suggests tying a
rope to her axe and throwing it across the chasm
to the floating platform and everyone climbing across her makeshift
(23:02):
hook shot. Basically, and this, this kind of solution to
me is the Bob Dylan or Boondock Saints poster that
every college male had on their wall and the late Oughts,
where like every D and D group at some point
has found a rope in their inventory and tried to
use it in some creative way to climb up or
across something and it doesn't ever work. But it's just
(23:25):
that process of like everyone looking at their character sheet
and saying, well, I've got this, can we use this?
I have this spell, I can make us, I can
make things smell like fresh cut grass. Does that help
in any way with our distraction tactics? And then of course,
like Zenk as a character feels very much like the
dungeon master's playable character who's just there to help them
(23:48):
and usher them along and along those lines, oftentimes a
DM will like provide some solution to you if you
if you guys are stuck. And in this I really
feel like the hither thither staff just happens to be
something that Holga has and Simon happens to recognize it,
and it's the perfect way for them to get across.
Cool great use of magic like that is a real
(24:11):
spell that you can use. And in fact, a lot
of the items from the movie Wizards of the Coast
introduced like a free item pack, So if you are
interested in playing D and D and you want to
use these characters or these items, all of it is
available for free, fun way to just jump in and
get like some of these familiar things. But I mean
(24:32):
it's not just that, like the fact that as a
DM you can come up and pre plan all these
things and you can like put together an elaborate discussion
tree that you expect to happen with this really important
character and then the party ignores them, or the party
(24:53):
he does something and they die, and then it's like, well,
now I have to completely come up with some other
thing on fly And that's one of the most fun things.
And like one of the groups that I DM for
involves a boo who was one of our producers, and
to be fair, I think he actually may have missed
this session. But we were running a a like a
(25:14):
scene in a town, and I had a bunch of
goblins that were disguised magically as little kids. So there's
all these little kids running around the town and I
wanted they all looked very suspicious. They were all wearing red,
and I wanted our party to like investigate who these
little kids were. And one of the players rolled really poorly,
(25:35):
and he happened to be like investigating the kid that
was standing next to the well, and I was like,
you rolled a one that is like that's a natural failure,
critical failure. I have to punish you. And so his
punishment was that he went to investigate this child and
accidentally bumped into them and they fell down the well.
And it was just like that was not the plan
(25:56):
at all, but you did so poorly, something had to happen.
So there are so many great things where you're reacting
and you come up with all these plans, things don't
work out as a group, you figure out something new
and you move on, and so in that way it
does really the movie to me felt so much like
(26:16):
playing a game with your friends and everyone has these
like I said, exaggerated character traits, you know, like Simon
is so unsure of himself and Poulga is so like
cut and dry. Zenke is like Drax where he doesn't
understand any sort of sarcasm or anything.
Speaker 2 (26:35):
It's amazing.
Speaker 4 (26:36):
And then the other thing is like they use magic
really well in this and and it's very good representation
of playing it in the game in particular, like you
see little uses of spells, Rosie, like you're talking about
like these easter eggs that maybe you wouldn't notice, like
Sophina uses frost touch to chill Hugh Grant's tea where
(26:57):
she her finger becomes iced and she just sticks it.
Speaker 3 (27:00):
Okay, so you're what I was going to say, Aaron,
another thing that I really that bring true to me
about this and I haven't. This is really just such
a silly thing. But it was one of those things
that you can't plan for where when our DM Jewles
was DM in this mini game with me and Nick
and Jewles was playing and dming, I had written that
(27:21):
my worst you know, your secret enemy, I had written
that his name was Larry, And then when we finally
got to play, Nick's character was called Larry completely coincidental,
and then we had to essentially like write in a
storyline about why I hated him and he was my nemesis,
(27:41):
and it was just because we both chose the same name.
So I do think that there's this kind of chaotic
collaborative nature of D and D that I really love,
because there is an aspect to it where you can
really never.
Speaker 2 (27:53):
Know what people are going to do.
Speaker 4 (27:55):
And speaking of names, whether or not they did this intentionally,
Jarnathan is the exact kind of name that people come
up with in the midst of the game when they're like, oh,
who's my character, It's JARNI. I don't know that's such
a name that someone would come up with in the
middle of.
Speaker 1 (28:14):
The game trying to think of something.
Speaker 4 (28:16):
And one other like really cool Easter egg with the
magic I thought was a lot of spells and dungeon
and dragons require concentration, so when you cast something, you
can only concentrate on one spell, and if your concentration
is broken, the spell ends. Not every spell requires this,
but a lot of the really powerful ones do, and
so for instance, Sophia in the beginning of the fight
(28:38):
at the end casts animate objects on I think it's
the statue in the fountain and that comes to life
and it's attacking everyone, and then Doric uses like a
thing of garlic or whatever and just slingshots it at
Sophia and it hits her. She loses concentration and the
animate object ends. So it's a nice like example of
(29:00):
how that works in game, where you don't have to
do something super damaging, but if you can just knock
them out of concentration, you can end their spell, which
is a really fun way of interacting in battle.
Speaker 3 (29:10):
Yeah, Jason, you have some You did some really good
fun facts with this, and I think a great one
of why we're even having this conversation is the fact that,
like the directors are like massive nuts.
Speaker 1 (29:23):
That's true. More on that in fun facts, Aaron, thank
you so much for joining us. Let's go to quick
let's go to fun facts quip facting. Yeah, okay, first up,
(29:48):
fun facts. Box office for this movie Dungeons and Dragons
hat ninety three million domestic, one hundred and eleven international,
two hundred million worldwide. This is working off a budget
of a reported hundred and fifty millions. Are you're talking about,
you know, three hundred something million? It was not a hit,
(30:09):
not a flop. But if you're wondering why we haven't
seen Dungeons and Dragon two, it's because it didn't make any.
Speaker 3 (30:15):
It didn't make half a million dollars, which is what
they always want a movie to make. And yeah, as
we were kind of hinting at in the half a billion, yeah, yeah,
And so as we were talking about, the film is
co directed by Jonathan Goldstein and John Francis Daily, who
is sad and if I'm not mistaken, that is the same.
(30:36):
They're the same to people who wrote Spider Man Homecoming,
I believe when so like they are banger writers. I
think that that's a big part. They obviously love games
and gaming. Game Night held another hilarious movie, and I
would say like, yeah, this this film kind of has
that emc unice to it, but complimentary because I do
(31:00):
think when this first came out the trailer, people were like, Oh,
it's trying to be like the MCU, it's trying to
be quippy. But I actually think it's much more of
like a princess bride type situation.
Speaker 1 (31:09):
I think that, Yeah, I think you're right. I think
they establish basically I think Goldstend and daily their voice
in Game Night, which is lots of heists, lots of action, comedy,
really fun story set pieces, and always a collection of
(31:30):
emotionally wounded weirdos. Chris Pine. In this movie, Chris Pine
took the role of Edg and the Bard because he
wanted to make a fantasy movie that his kids could watch.
And he's described the tone of this movie as quote,
Rosie's your point, the Princess Bride meets Monty Python meets
Game of Thrones.
Speaker 3 (31:47):
Yeah, okay, I like it, And also aesthetically I understand
what he means. It's like, what if there was a
PG thirteen version of Game of Ferns that you could
watch with your kids, even though we all know kids
watch Game of Ferns.
Speaker 1 (31:57):
That's right.
Speaker 3 (31:58):
Oh, this was another one you pulled out that I
absolutely loved that I did not know, but obviously as
the number one little guy lover, I was impressed by
the fat dragon. I love the comically overweight dragon. I
love that he's just eaten it up having a good time.
And his name in the law is Thember Child. What
a name, Okay, And he's a real monster in D
(32:19):
and D Law, known for guarding the dwarf and City
of Gratsluff and for being well, large and unmotivated, reliable.
He's basically like the Garfield of the Dungeons and Dragon universe,
which you know I'm always supporting.
Speaker 1 (32:34):
This is a film in Hugh Grant's villain era, maybe
his best errors. He would describe it his freak show era.
In the last decade, Hugh Grant has pivoted from his
early kind of rom com sweetheart roles to a bunch
of roles in which he is a scene stealing scoundrel.
He's played a fraudster in Paddington II, he has played
(32:57):
a sleazy pi and the gentleman, a sociopathic husband in
The Undoing I love that, and now the double crossing
con man and jungeones and dragons. Quote. This is what
I get offered these days, Hugh Grant said during the
press run for Willie Walker. Quote, I'm in the freak
show phase of my career. I do baddies, psychopaths, weirdos,
(33:19):
perverts and now believe we hope it continues.
Speaker 2 (33:24):
Never media trained this man. You cannot media train this fan.
Speaker 3 (33:28):
He never allow And it's very interesting because obviously also
most recently he took that to a new level with Heretic,
where he was kind of, you know, the true true
villain rather than these.
Speaker 2 (33:38):
Kind of like odd maybe you root for them villains.
Speaker 3 (33:41):
I think this is one of his best villain era
performances because he plays the con man so well. Speaking
of people playing parts well, Reggae John Page in this
What Happened.
Speaker 2 (33:53):
He's playing lawful good. He should have been a hero
after Bridgeton made him a global star.
Speaker 3 (33:59):
He left the show after season one, which is why
we have never seen him again. Very sad because it
probably would have just been a cameo. But also I
understand that breaking through in a show like that, you
might worry about getting pigeonholed. So he left the show
aiming for leading man status. But Jason, let's talk about it,
because he was in the gray man flop from the
Russo Brothers. Dungeons and Dragons wonderful but did not get
(34:21):
him to kill me to break yeah, and Dungeons and
Dragons like it did not.
Speaker 2 (34:25):
Break him out. He's not a main character.
Speaker 3 (34:27):
He is kind of your perfect straight man, this kind
of dead pan hilarity and as we kind of we
talked about this in prepro but the buzz on Regge
has noticeably called He's still circling major projects like the
Saint reboot interesting and Butch Cassidy series of Dot's Very
(34:48):
Interesting is going nowhere right now.
Speaker 2 (34:50):
But also I just.
Speaker 3 (34:51):
Think my theory that I have that I've talked to
many people about, and I mentioned it in the discord,
I think at one point I'm pretty sure he was
announced as being like a potential cast member and an
MCU thing, but they didn't.
Speaker 2 (35:04):
Say who, and then that was kind of pulled.
Speaker 3 (35:07):
I think that they should have cost him as read Richards,
though we got Pedro Pascals.
Speaker 2 (35:10):
I'm feeling happy about that.
Speaker 3 (35:12):
But I also do think that for a time they
were probably considering him for the Casper Cole version of
Black Panther, who's like a cop, an African American cop,
and he took over the mantle for a little while.
Was not particularly beloved, So I think it makes sense
that they didn't go in that direction.
Speaker 2 (35:28):
But this movie reminds you reggae. He could be a
movie star.
Speaker 3 (35:32):
He could have been he could have been a star,
He could have been somebody we got a note of, sir.
Speaker 2 (35:38):
All you had to do was.
Speaker 3 (35:39):
Just show up once every season in Bridgeton and keep
that money going, keep your face on those posters in
that Netflix smart.
Speaker 2 (35:47):
Category that everybody loves so much. But you know what,
good for him?
Speaker 3 (35:50):
I feel like he every time I watch him in
something great like Dungeons and Dragons, I'll be all the
first season of Ridgeton. I'm like, sir, you can do this.
You got a You know, he probably could have been
in Gladia It too. I think he has that kind
of juice.
Speaker 1 (36:04):
Instead, he was in the Great Man flop Dungeons and
Dragon's Hat. Good movie, but a cameo and a and
a ad for Audi cars.
Speaker 2 (36:13):
Oh my god, get together? Who is your agent? Get
a new agent? So you're very fantastical. You can do it.
Speaker 1 (36:22):
Oh listen if you want to hear some Hollywood scuttle
but rumors. I apparently like his team was in turmoil
about this decision to lead Bridgerton, and there was It
was not like a unified team decision. Like one part
was like, don't do it, another part was like do
it and we see the results next up. The magic
(36:44):
and the effects in Dungeons and Dragons hat mostly practical.
Over eighty creatures were built with practical effects by Legacy Effects,
the same team behind The Mandalorian and Iron Man and
other films including The Tobacxi. The Cat People were practical
actual costume Jonathan actual costume, the Dragon Guard animatronic head.
(37:07):
We love practical effects, as you know here at Extra Vision.
Speaker 2 (37:09):
So this is all. I think.
Speaker 3 (37:10):
You can see it in every single shot where there
is some brilliant creature work. I just think it's such
a high point of this movie, and I think it
will continue to be a part of why this film
is gaining that cult kind of following. It's interesting because
we've talked about this a lot on the podcast. But
you know, in the olden days, when me and Jason
(37:31):
were young, you could make a movie like Scott Pilgrim
that did not hit at all on in the theaters.
It did not make the money back, but it made
a ton of money on home video. Now, of course,
the streaming version of that is you put it on
Netflix and it gets a certain amount of views, but
that does not necessarily give the creators or cost any
extra money.
Speaker 2 (37:51):
It's not the same as DVD.
Speaker 3 (37:53):
Sales and home video sales, which you know Matt Damon
and Ben Affleck have kind of spoken quite extensively about
being the reason they were able to make a living
in Hollywood because their movies would do really great on
home video. I hope that the popularity of this on
Netflix and the conversation it is garnering means we will
get more D and D storytelling, and that is our
final fun fact is as of now, there's no official sequel,
(38:18):
though there was talk of a TV spin off.
Speaker 2 (38:20):
But Chris Pine is he the best Chris. I don't know.
We got a lot of Chriss, but he's doing. He's up.
He's one of our great chris Is.
Speaker 3 (38:28):
And he was in an interview with games Radar he
was basically like, I don't know anything, but I feel
pretty confident that it may happen, and asked if he
would be happy to return. He replied absolutely, because he's
smart and he can know a good thing when he
sees it.
Speaker 1 (38:43):
Next up the Omnibus, and now the Omnibus where Laura
and Understanding come together. Let's talk about dungeons and Dragons
as a as a piece of culture, and I'm talking
about the original dungeon Dragons. The Blueprins change, whether you
know it or not, the kind of ore text for
(39:07):
many video games, many styles of story. It's many comic books,
any kind of tale that begins with you enter a tavern,
what do you do? Owes itself to D and D
is a game, but it is also, you know, an
incredible cultural institution and also a generator of both joy
(39:33):
and also significant panic in the culture. Let's talk about
the origins. Game was born in the early nineteen seventies
in Wisconsin and was created by the legendary Gary Geax,
who was doing like the nerdiest pre computer thing that
you could do, which is designing a designing tabletop war
(39:55):
games in his basement. He meets a guy named Dave Arnison,
another gamer from me Minnesota, and together they create this thing.
What if instead of commanding armies as table tabletop games
were doing at the time, stuff like that. Yes, players
controlled a single character in a fantasy world, collaborating with
(40:16):
other characters on quests, and that idea individual character, characters,
collaborative storytelling, party based adventures was a big bang for
so many other things. In nineteen seventy four, they released
the first edition of Dungeons and Dragons, three little rule
books in a white box. It cost ten bucks you know,
(40:37):
it had very low production value, like it looked it's
like giving.
Speaker 3 (40:41):
Nothing teenage may Ninja thous issue one where it was
just like something. It looks like the home made it
and then sent like five hundred compets at the comic shops.
Speaker 1 (40:50):
Yes, it's giving like small town accountant spreadsheet vibes. But
it was the beginning of a genre, and it quickly
spread like wildfire through hobbyist circles, through college dorms, high
school kids. And this was a time when you know,
fantasy fiction was starting to find its second era legs.
(41:15):
You know, Tolkien and others had started the movement some
forty years earlier now at this point. But because of
the Lord of the Rings paperbacks, because of the Lord
of the Rings animated very weird animated movie, because of
other cultural references like led Zeppelin dropping multiple Lord of
(41:36):
the Rings references in multiple songs, all of a sudden,
you have this generation of post hippie era kids who
are smoking weed.
Speaker 2 (41:47):
They in that mom's bayfield. That's what you need.
Speaker 1 (41:50):
Yeah, they don't feel like they fit into the kind
of like jock business suit hierarchy. They're weirder and they're
looking for something much weirder, but also that brings a
community together, and then you have the explosion of D
and D through the seventies and eighties, new campaigns, new rules.
Kids are creating entire worlds and binders drawing maps in
(42:12):
math class. If you watch a Strange Stranger Things, then
you've gotten a whiff of this.
Speaker 3 (42:17):
No, so you Stranger Things is so deeply, deeply inspired
by dungeons and dragons.
Speaker 1 (42:24):
So you know, this little kind of lark that Geegax
and Anderson started begins to make millions and millions of dollars.
And that is where the fear sets in. We go
to the eighties, it's Reagan's America, meaning very conservative, very moralistic.
We're worried about outsider threats, including the devil Satan.
Speaker 2 (42:50):
Maybe it's there, and it's stage.
Speaker 3 (42:52):
It absolutely sucks, destroys America for a long time.
Speaker 1 (42:58):
Across the country, this wave of moral panics starts to
set in, and the fear is basically, okay, what if
Satan is reaching our kids through culture through heavy metal music,
through rock music, dungeons, through.
Speaker 2 (43:11):
Dungeons and dragon called dungeons.
Speaker 3 (43:14):
It's obviously ebol that prisoners should be in there, so.
Speaker 1 (43:18):
Wild claims begin to circulate that D and D was
tied to suicide, that it was tied to mental illness,
that it was a gateway to devil worship, and this
panic kind of crested with a real life tragedy. James
Dallas Egbert, who is a college student, disappeared in nineteen
seventy nine. The rumors that circulated said he's got lost
(43:43):
in the university's steam tunnels because he was involved in
a D and D like LARPing event, when in reality,
he was like a kid who was struggling with depression
and D and D had nothing to do with it.
But the stories about his death kind of stuck. Then
came Mazes and Months made for TV movie starring Yeah
Young Tom Hanks, where D and D style gaming literally
(44:05):
drives one of the characters insane. In the real world,
groups like badd bothered about Dungeons and Dragons sprang up
to fight what they saw as like satanic indoctrination for
the youth, with various activists making wild claims, including that
like spells, these spells in the game were real and
(44:25):
that could like actually turn your kid. Your kid could
be unleashing actual email like satanic yea through the magic.
It just absolutely bizarre stuff, but it was enough for
sixty minutes ye to do an episode on it like
this was this was a real moment in American history.
Speaker 3 (44:44):
The publishers like incredibly sad because, as you said, it
started as a place where people could be outsiders, but
then that outsider community was othered in this space. And
this led not only obviously to like you were saying,
the kind of story that came out when James Dallas
Eggbert died, but also this idea of D and D
(45:05):
and Satanic panic, and it was a key part in
the West Memphis three being arrested and then imprisoned wrongly
for you know.
Speaker 2 (45:15):
Two decades, Watch Paradise Lost.
Speaker 3 (45:17):
Those are great documentaries, and also the later documentary that
was made by none other than Peter Jackson. And I
think often about how sad it is that and this
is something the last season of Stranger Things I think
did get right was how sad it is that this
can be such a powerful, incredible space for people, but
then from the outside it just ends up making them
(45:39):
like more marginalized or seen as a threat.
Speaker 2 (45:41):
And it's really sad because it's just storytelling.
Speaker 3 (45:44):
You know, but the Satanic Panic movement was was really
real and really dangerous.
Speaker 1 (45:48):
To be to be fair to these freaks who were
worried about the Satanic Panic. You know, rock bands and
metal bands of the era were playing with that fristen
of danger, using satanic imagery, using satanic uh wording and
references in their lyrics where they actually Satanists. No, nonetheless,
(46:11):
you know, we're not talking about the the Nordic death
metal mounded people like, right, right, yeah, we're not talking
about that. So, you know, these people who are worried
about this so called Satanic panic, we're seeing things that
they believed were truly.
Speaker 3 (46:32):
Even being pushed by that pushed that that idea was
pushed onto them by the media as well.
Speaker 1 (46:38):
That they were sincerely they were sincerely deluded.
Speaker 3 (46:42):
You know.
Speaker 1 (46:44):
Now the publishers at TSR were forced to do damage control.
Now they removed references to demons, they were references to devils.
They toned down some of the artwork, renamed monsters. Tried
to weather the storm, and they did. D and D
of course survived. The panic eventually burned itself out. Studies
(47:06):
various studies debunked the claims the movement itself just kind
of petered out because it once the hearings started, Once
congressional hearings on music and culture and the influence of
the Devil actually started in front of people that people
could watch on TV, it became manifestly ridiculous. And a
(47:30):
lot of the kids who played D and D are
now the kids who are moving culture, running culture, and
D and D went mainstream. Fast forward to now, Dungeons
and Dragons is just like in a whole different thing.
It's an institution now, celebrities play it, actors film campaigns
for Twitter and YouTube. There are podcasts, the various hit
(47:53):
podcasts that have people playing D and D on it, cartoons,
merchandise conventions.
Speaker 3 (48:00):
Currently Etway Dungeons and Dragon show twenty sided Tavern that
I believe is an official Dungeons and Dragons show that
they bring people in to do different campaigns. Now it's
part of the cultural lexicon in a way that I
think no one could have perceived when it was created.
Speaker 1 (48:17):
That's right, and D and D has in fact become
integral to the way we tell stories and we perceive stories,
video games, novels, movies, even the way we think about
like teamwork and assembling teams and making progress and leveling
up characters. It all bears the stamp of Dungeons and Dragons,
and the cultural legacy is enormous. The level up mechanic
(48:40):
that's baked into any number of things, video games, movies,
et cetera. In fitness apps comes from D and D.
The idea of a campaign, a shared, serialized, collaborative narrative
that unfolds organically over.
Speaker 2 (48:58):
Time, came from DNA D.
Speaker 1 (49:00):
The iconic polyhedral dice set from the from the earliest
humble D four to the mighty D twenty. It didn't
just shape tabletop gaming. It rewired how video games are structured,
how video games structure, chance stats, criticals, character builds. All
(49:21):
that stuff comes from d D. Why does your elden
Ring characters damage range have a ceiling and a floor.
Why do you sometimes miss an attack that you have
an eighty seven percent chance to hit because your character
has high accuracy? Thank or blame Dungeons and Dragons for this.
When early computer games like Ultimar Balder's Gates started adapting
(49:42):
tabletop mechanics, they brought that dice logic with them. Hit points,
armor classes, defensive stats, offensive stats, et cetera, and all
of that has stuck around today. Whether you're specking out
a character in like Elon Musk Path of Exile, or.
Speaker 2 (50:02):
Or hoping.
Speaker 1 (50:05):
Or hoping your your critical attack lands in Final Fantasy,
you're basically just doing the virtual version of rolling the
dice in Dungeons and Dragons. Even the way we relate
to fiction has changed. D and D trained an entire
generation to collaborate on stories, to improvise within cis josure.
I don't think it. I don't think it's an accident
(50:25):
that a lot of the ascendancy, this, this post eighties
and nineties ascendancy of Dungeons and Dragons involves people who
are involved in improv theater and improvisational comedy. So yeah,
the game has been through it, and it's come through.
It was banned, but now it's here. It's part of
a cultural institution, which I think is a hopeful thing.
(50:46):
Look at it, look at look at Dungeons and Dragons.
It can be attacked, it could be misunderstood, it can
be almost banned, and it can still be a major
pillar of our of our culture. We've we did Andrews
of Dragons here to stay, to.
Speaker 3 (51:02):
Stay, Baby, you can't get rid of it because all
you need is a friend and a basement and an imagination.
It's incredibly accessible and that's why it's still here.
Speaker 1 (51:10):
In the next few episodes of X ray Vision, we're
diving into Daredevil Born Again episode seven, and then Friday
our reactions to everything that happens in Nintendo Durren that's
in for this episode. Next You're listening. X ray Vision
is hosted by Jason Concepcion and Rosie Knight and is
(51:30):
a production of iHeart Podcasts.
Speaker 3 (51:32):
Our executive producers are Joel Monique and Aaron Kaufman.
Speaker 1 (51:36):
Our supervising producer is Abuzafar.
Speaker 3 (51:38):
Our producers are Common Laurent Dean Jonathan and Bay Wax.
Speaker 1 (51:42):
A theme song is by Brian Vasquez, with alternate theme
songs by Aaron Kaufman.
Speaker 3 (51:47):
Special thanks to Soul Rubin, Chris Lord, Kenny Goodman, and Heidi.
Speaker 2 (51:51):
Our disc called moderate, though
Hosts And Creators
Jason Concepcion
Rosie Knight
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