September 9, 2025 • 61 mins
Jason and Rosie are joined by Abu to recap and dive deep into the ninth episode of Foundation season three. Then they chat with Pilou Asbæk, the actor who plays the Mule himself!
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Warrant. Today's episode can spoilers for season three episode nine
of Foundation. Hello, my name is Jason Zepsi and on Mersey.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Night and I'm a.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
Boo Podcast where we dived video favorite drills, movies, colleagues
of pop culture, Cody Roi our podcast. We're reading three
episodes a week plus news on Saturday.
Speaker 3 (00:43):
Wow, it's there's three episodes a week and three hosts.
Today is in today's episode because we are talking about
Foundation season three episode nine, unbelievable episode of television. Very
glad to have super producer at Boo here to not
only talk about it, but also give us some more
insight into where we expect the season to go as
(01:04):
we head towards the final episode.
Speaker 4 (01:06):
But first we got to just recap it.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
Let's recap it, okay, Foundation Season three episode nine, The
Paths That Choose Us. We open up seemingly minutes after
the events of that closed episode eight, with Gail and
her squad arrived on New Terminus, now being hunted by
the Mules folks led by the Warden. Gail kind of
(01:32):
pretty easily uses her metallic powers to negate the Mules
ground forces. She takes one of the mules lieutenants the
warden prisoner and interrogates her, probes her mind. The Warden
is insisting, listen, I'm just doing what I always did,
but now I'm doing it for the Mule, like I'm
(01:53):
protecting the citizens of New Terminus, and I want to
be doing this. I love what I'm doing, like the Mule.
How's its love? What's going on? Because you you wouldn't
even know the truth from Alie, because that's the power
that the Mule has. So I'm gonna have to like
(02:15):
go into your mind and check things out. So they
go into Gail's mind interrogation room, which is a hut
from her home planet that is like flooded with water,
and immediately Gale, like you know, knows basically all the
biographical information that she needs to do about the Warden.
(02:37):
She knows, but she wants to know more about the Mule.
Wants to know what he's planning. The Warden can't say
because and now the pain begins to come out, and
in the psychic plane, the Mule like swims up out
of the water, grabs a ward and drags her down
and begins to drown her. In real life, she's hemorrhage's
blood from all her orifices and dies while I have
(03:00):
never known such love.
Speaker 3 (03:02):
Okay, first of all, horrific, extremely creepy, really great creepy moment,
and we get to see this kind of battle of
the mentallic powers in this really gory way.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
In this episode, I draw the line of eye stuff
and this was too much.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
Eye stuff for me, got me like freaks.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
I hurt me for the rest of the episode.
Speaker 3 (03:27):
I couldn't stop thinking about it. Also, this, I have
never known such love. You guys did a great interview
with Pillow, who plays a couple of episodes ago, who
plays the Mule, and he kind of talked about how
the Mule not being someone who necessarily had a lot
of love or a lot of following or a lot
of people around him kind of shaped him. And I
(03:48):
feel like, now this, I have never known such love.
He's kind of feels like he's like brainwashing people to
care about him, to agree with him, but also to
love him. That's kind of I got gathered from this moment.
Did you kind of pick up the same thing?
Speaker 2 (04:05):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (04:05):
Absolutely, yeah, yeah, yeah, clearly I think that that's how
his as we are going to find out this is
how his power works. It feels like love, and that's
why the people who he touches with his powers seems
so absolutely devoted to him. Pritch appears out of the
woods and Gail's like, well, I got a mind scan
(04:29):
him to make sure that he hasn't been touched by
the Mule. She takes him into the Psychic Water Hut
and he's untouched by the Mule. He's fine, man, She's
so happy.
Speaker 4 (04:38):
He's just he's just.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
He's purely incompetent without any kind of his own pritchet.
And she's super sexy guy that's kind of been fucking
up for the whole season.
Speaker 4 (04:51):
But it's fine, just like untouched by the mule taller
than me.
Speaker 3 (04:56):
A hans I was like, you know what, go for it, Gail,
you just have something happy in your life.
Speaker 1 (05:01):
Meanwhile, the Mule is up on his spaceship in orbit
around New Terminus and he's continuing to troll Dawn. Beta
is upset at this entire display. The Mule says that hey,
I just got a DM from the Galactic Council saying
they want to give me trantor what do you think
(05:22):
about that?
Speaker 4 (05:23):
Feel doesn't sound good?
Speaker 1 (05:24):
Dawn, we go to Trantor, the Galactic Council, the Cloud Dominion,
and the Aluminites, the three breakaway governments from within Empire
go to meet Demarzelle. Maassador Quent is there just observing
because she has technically no job anymore. She's just hanging
(05:48):
out now. Dusk is nowhere to be seen, and and
de Marcel is like, don't worry, that's not a problem.
I will I'm Empire today, I'm representing him. Quent disagrees
with forcing the Empire's hands. She basically tells the insurgents like, listen,
I understand, Empire. Listen, I've been fucking Dusk for a
(06:08):
little while now, so I understand like how he governs,
and he's just not going to take kindly to this
kind of ultimatum. You know, it's just really not gonna work.
Like there's a different way that we can get what
we want. They're like, whatever, sounds like, we're doing it.
We're handing Tran toward to the mule. Dusk appears via hologram,
(06:31):
and then the Mule arrives via hologram, which is actually,
you know, you're like, okay, Dusk smarter than we gave
him credit for it. Doesn't want to be close enough
to the mule so that the mule could affect his mind.
And so Dusk lays out the offer, okay, Trantor to
the mule in exchange for peace, and of course Dusk
(06:53):
is like, and if you knew where I was, you
would include me in that deal. I'm sure, but guess
what I'm keeping Trantur, no deal, And the Mules like, well,
that doesn't matter because I can very easily pick you off,
like it doesn't actually what you think doesn't actually matter.
But then Dusk's like, oh yeah, what about the navaculate
(07:14):
the big bomb baby?
Speaker 4 (07:17):
He bought this thing out. I was like, are you
kidding me?
Speaker 1 (07:20):
Big bomb baby? This is LaBamba Grande. And the insurrectionists
and Quent are like whoa big bomb? Like, what are
you going to do with that? This is That's not good.
Dusk then, without any further delay, no speech, nothing, there's
(07:41):
no fourthwith uses the bomb to wipe out the Galactic
Council homework.
Speaker 4 (07:47):
It's Gonsane.
Speaker 1 (07:49):
Just gone. And then Cloud Dominion and then the Maiden
Aluminite Home World want you. It's like Steph Curry from
Deep a Striple genocide by Dusk.
Speaker 3 (08:02):
Also like, why does he have to be such a
fucking like he's he's so.
Speaker 4 (08:08):
Over the top of it, Like when he says that,
you know, the iluminite hold world was called the Maiden.
Speaker 3 (08:14):
It always made me think it needed to be deflowered.
Speaker 4 (08:17):
And then he blows it up. I'm like, God, that
was crazy.
Speaker 3 (08:21):
Like you gotta say, you're gonna crazy, You're gonna like
all the bomb, You're gonna the bomb, Like Dusk plays
chill out, so.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
He does this, and listen, I think, like from a
purely geo strategic sense, you could say, Okay, I kind
of understand it, but truly a horror we've just witnessed.
Speaker 4 (08:41):
You're talking about Billy.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
Everybody.
Speaker 4 (08:43):
It's like three.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
Everybody is a ghast. Don is basically like, don't fuck
with Empire, okay. Mule immediately logs off down then turns
to the insurrectionist leader and it's like, hey, you've seen
what I've done for Ambassador Quent, who is in a
(09:05):
similar situation with no home world or home organization. Now
feel free to live here. I will give you refuge.
You guys canna hang out of the palace. It's fine.
And then you know, Quent is like crying. Even Demarzelle
seems shocked, like this is crazy. Dawn watching this from
(09:27):
the space station, can't believe what he's seen, and he
then warns the Mule, like, hey, Dusk might aim the
bombit at you, and Mule says no because he if
he knew, that's only if he would have done it already.
We go to New Terminus. Gail realizes that the fighting
on the planet means that not everyone is under the
mules control. And here again we're getting these hints that
(09:50):
while the Mule's powers are certainly nothing to sneeze at,
there are hints of vulnerabilities, and here is some that
there continues to be fighting and clean up on New Terminus.
Pritchard then takes Gail and her squad down to like
an underground area where the refugees are hiding, and torn
(10:12):
Mallow is down there as well as Professor Ebling Miss
They all meet Gail and Gail's like, okay, you guys
are clean without you're untouched by the Mule. I've got
some big reveals for you guys, And here they are.
One second Foundation. It exists and it's run by me.
Oh Harry Selden put me in charge of it. Now.
(10:33):
At this point in time, they don't realize that there's
two Harry's. But that's very complicated and they'll figure that out.
And then she says, I want all of your help
in killing the mule. That's my plan. That's my goal,
is to kill the mule. And Torn's like, I love it.
He's got my wife. Let's start in on it right now.
Mcgale's like, hold on one thing before we start. I
(10:54):
have to check the mind of this last guy, Magnificent,
the DJ who I am, And I've checked everybody.
Speaker 4 (11:01):
Kim fast, seeing as he came from Okay.
Speaker 1 (11:05):
There's a lot going on. So she's getting to it now,
and before she really gets into it, Magnifico is like love,
speaking of love. The only person I love is Beta. Oh,
I love her, She's been so kind to me. But
then as Gail reaches out to touch Magnifico's mind, she
finds love for the mule in there, so they have
(11:29):
to It's I.
Speaker 3 (11:30):
Read how they showed this with the mule kind of
round his neck, like choking him, but hugging him. It
was like such a good visual. I thought, Yeah, I
feel like This is just such a strong panne on
the episode. It really feels up there with your kind
of bigger shows that more people are watching right now.
I feel like this is still a hidden jam.
Speaker 1 (11:49):
So they tie up Magnifico, and Torren is like trying
to level with him, like, guy, let's listen, just let
go of the mule, like you just He's also arguing
to everybody else like let's not just execute Magnifico. He
must have there's got to be a use for him.
Gail is like, well, okay, for now, we won't do
(12:12):
it because if he is going to betray us, I
will sense it. I now feel like I now feel like,
hold on, magnifical is the mule is now back? I
think it's back in place, simply just like it's Vaggin.
Speaker 4 (12:31):
Why is she just?
Speaker 3 (12:32):
She immediately is just like yeah, I'll sense it, And
it's like, but you haven't even checked him before.
Speaker 2 (12:37):
Very I the arguments on either side of the group,
Torn being like let's not kill this guy, trust me, right,
and everyone just agreeing, and then Gail being like, yeah,
let's not kill this guy. I'll he won't sneak attack
us because I'll sense it first Gail, when have you
ever sensed that first? Exactly never. There's no precedent for that,
So why do I trust you to do that?
Speaker 1 (12:57):
It's it's very Yoda in the Clone War is saying,
you know that if there was a syth that he
would yeah, yeah, he know. Anyway, we go to Micigen.
Day wakes up down in the water at the bottom
of a bong.
Speaker 4 (13:13):
Absolutely what it is.
Speaker 3 (13:15):
I agree the giant gods of this well, they're smoking
out bong because that war is.
Speaker 1 (13:20):
So down there. He's down there amongst the roaches and
the little pieces of ash and the different things. It's
gross down there. This is where the mushrooms are growing.
They start to grow in his skin. He tries to
climb out, but it's very difficult to climb out, but
then someone flushes the bong and he ends up out
(13:42):
in a sewer control room and Song is there. She
pulls the fungus off his skin, and she saved him
because she realizes like he was telling the truth about
Danielle slash Demersel, and that's their messiah. Something must be done.
Day says, listen, I'm gonna go up to the courtroom.
I'm going to confront mister Sunmaster confront Yeah, and I'm
(14:07):
gonna get that authentic robot head to bring to Demarzelle
and Song and her partner Ocean or all for it.
Sun Master's up there making some kind of spear way.
I need not reach out to the mule Ale. They
need to bide by time and see what the mule has.
(14:28):
And as he's doing this, as Day barges in kicking
people out of the way, then chases Sunmaster around the
courtroom and then it later impaled him with the staff
crazy throws him down onto the dais and takes off
with the head. Thus ends sun Master.
Speaker 3 (14:50):
The head off to He's just like boom, like when
they've been using ly pay so well in this season,
Like every time he shows up, he makes such a
big impact. And this is just what it's like, such
a funny. It's a badass action sequence, but it's also
hilarious because he really just goes in there and fucking
kills him.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
But were you hoping for one last speech, yes from
sun Master, one last.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
I wanted one last like juicy confrontation between sun Master
and Day actually, and I was kind of like, oh, wait,
is he just shoving people what's happening here? Like it's
full on, like Rambo, like no negotiation at this point,
a quick way to get skull in Day's hands. But
(15:39):
I'll admit I was a little disappointed.
Speaker 1 (15:41):
I know, I was hoping for one more pronunciation of
high high above in the palace, dusk is in the
throne room, or excuse me, the hall of clones. Basically
talking shit, talking ship about all the previous the conciliator,
(16:05):
give me a fucking the conger, get a load of
this guy. And then he then tells Demarzelle as he
comes to his own bust, that he does not like
his sobriquette, which I'm now forgetting. What was it the
was it the conciliator? I think it was the concilia.
(16:26):
He doesn't like that because nobody really understands what that means.
Also basically means like the nice guy.
Speaker 3 (16:32):
Not a good piece going on. You have not conciliated anything,
my friend like this.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
So he says, I would like the consequential, and Demarzelle's like, okay,
but let's not rush into it. A lot of things
going on. You're about to be ascended. We don't know
the outcome of your triple genocides, like, we don't know.
That's a huge disruption to the gallaxy.
Speaker 3 (16:55):
We don't know how it's gonna happen.
Speaker 1 (16:59):
Dusk then says, hold on, hold, who whoa whoa Demorselle,
let's not get it twisted. The triple genocide and the
navacular my ideas. So as we go forward, let's make
sure let's not forget this is why I want consequential,
because it was me, not Day, not dawn. They're out
(17:19):
of the picture. I came up with that. Okay, that's me, DeMars.
Demarsel says, Okay, listen, you're getting very very fired up
right now, but let's not forget that you are getting
ascended in tomorrow. Do you love it?
Speaker 4 (17:41):
You think you get you can kill like two billion
people and incorrect.
Speaker 3 (17:46):
She's like, you're get you're a naughty boy.
Speaker 1 (17:50):
The Dusk is like, of course, I'm not. I would
not do something that is beg from my I know
I'm getting this. I'm fine with it.
Speaker 5 (18:04):
I am.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
Cool. All I want, Demarzelle, is when I am gone,
for you to say nice things about me and for
people to understand that I was consequential. Okay, And by
the way, demarselle, I can't help but notice the strain
upon your brow, A lot on your mind right now,
what's going on? Why don't you talk to the Zephyr
(18:27):
about it? And Demarsel's like, well, I think it's a
bad idea because you just wiped out. Aluminites are fucking dead,
and I think that would be that would be chaotic
and unpredictable, So I don't think it's a good idea.
So so Deusk's like, well, listen, I'm dying tomorrow anyway,
(18:49):
I got nothing but time right now. Let's why don't
you just unburden yourself, like, tell me right now. And
this is a fascinating moment because then de Marcella's like,
you know what, that's true. You are dying right now,
so I'll do it. She tells him about the meetings
with the Zephyr and the Garden. She tells him about
how as she walked the garden labyrinth, she thought of
(19:09):
her own mind, how the labyrinth had one path to
enter and exit, one kind of labyrinthine path, and that
was like her own fate. She thought she there was
only one possible option for her to choose, and that
was always her dedication to empire. But now she has realized, oh,
(19:29):
I think there are other choices and how do I
explore these? And now she's wondering, in this existential way,
has she been unconsciously examining these other options before her?
And do these options lead to the destruction of empire?
(19:52):
And is that what's causing her distress that she might
have been secretly working towards the destruction of Empire? And
Dusks like, hmmm, a lot to think about, Okay, silly
Billy Eddie Leeves. As he's leaving, He's like, now, I
(20:14):
don't forget. I want to see consequential on that bus
before I die. Get the wake somebody up.
Speaker 3 (20:20):
If I put him on the mosel, I'd be given
him a new nickname of like Dusty annoying, Like this
man just cannot deal with his fate and the cycle
of how life works.
Speaker 1 (20:30):
Yeah, it's fantastic. I thought this was a absolutely fascinating
conversation and your thoughts on this.
Speaker 2 (20:36):
I agree. This was a highlight for me in this
episode because I'm realizing I think over the course of
this season we have been maybe over the course of
all three seasons, we have been witnessing a robot grapple
with free will and come to terms with free will
and what that means for its existence, something that humans
are quite intimately familiar with, right like, free will is
(21:00):
scary the way Demrosel describes it here, She's like, oh, am,
I obligated to explore all options? Do I what if
one of the options is bad?
Speaker 3 (21:09):
You know?
Speaker 2 (21:09):
That's humans do that all the time, and a thousand
different decisions. And a robot that's only had one directive
for thousands of years is now realizing it can maybe
do other stuff, And boy is that scary.
Speaker 1 (21:24):
I think the other thing that is terrifying her is
the possibility that she's been exploring these options without fully
being connisant of it. She's been kind of finding these
unconscious loopholes to work against her programming. Is fascinating. This
(21:44):
conversation clearly awakens something in her, because she goes straight
to she wants to see the ninth Kale's ninth Proof
of folding. She's like, I don't care that it's banned.
I'm fucking Demarsell, get me in there. She then examines
it using the prime radiant, and she sends her consciousness
into the primary to visit because her math was integral
to the design of the prime rating Calai herself. Calai
(22:09):
arrives and it's the lady who made the body for
Harry crazy the being of pure energy. This is a
crazy reveal and then very exciting and it makes a
lot of sense on tour new termin Ees excuse make
(22:38):
Gail and the team arrive before the vault. Gail and
Pritchard go up to it. Gail goes inside to see
Harry and he's like, Oh, it's so great to see
you after all these years. We go to the throne room.
Dusk meets with his girlfriend Quinn, who is obviously extremely
shaken by the triple genocide that she witness and you know,
(23:01):
it's kind of a big deal when it happens, and
even a big deal when your boyfriend did it. He's like, babe,
can you ever forgive me kill billion people?
Speaker 4 (23:13):
I know?
Speaker 3 (23:13):
This is like such a good scene too, because Quentn
is just like so disgusted and starts to kind of
have the same questions a lot of people, like, so
this is what you're doing, Like does how does this
solve the problem? Like? How are these the numbers that
we and yet, Jason, why why do you think he
cares about getting out forgiveness when he's only got one
(23:35):
more day to live.
Speaker 1 (23:36):
He's trying to crack when work correct before, I mean
sincerity there, Like we all knew what he wanted. The
twinkle in his eye was very clear. Can you ever
forgive me? Let's talk about this in my bed? And
of course Quent Quent can't let the destruction of billions
(24:00):
of lives go. And they argue about this. Dusk then
points out that, well, you know, Seldon's plan wasn't much better.
It's not like anybody has the answer right now. I
was thinking on the spot and I did what I
had to do.
Speaker 4 (24:15):
Yeah, who hasn't done that? Who amongst?
Speaker 1 (24:19):
Quinn agrees that like, okay, the foundation has been discredited
and Selden's psychohistory is clearly on. Shake your ground right now.
But I can't agree with a triple genocide. That's just crazy.
And Dusk is like, well, that's when you sit in
a big chair, you gotta make big boy decisions. I'm sorry,
that's just how power works. And the mule made me
do it, Like if the mule hadn't a waged war
(24:40):
against the entire galaxy. I wouldn't have had to do that,
but I had to do it. And Seldon ran away
and everybody else ran away. It was only me, Dusk,
the consequential nickname. They're calling me, giving crazy. It's only me,
(25:03):
the consequential standing between the Mule and the galaxy. And
Quinn is like, no, you're not consequentially, You're scared, and
then she walks away crazy. We go back to the library,
Demarsel and Kylie are chopping it up. Kyllie is very
very cagey about what she is and who she is
and how she can still be here in this moment.
(25:24):
She's just very mysterious, but she is amazed at Demarzelle
is like, man, they when they say they don't make
them like they used to, they're right, because it's crazy
that you still work. Wow, robots still working after five
thousand years. Demarsel then wants to know through Calais, if
the vision she saw from Gail, the war between the
Mule and Gaale taking place in the library, if it
(25:47):
was real and we learned that five thousand years ago,
the surviving robots hid in what was then the library,
where her vision of the battle with the mule takes place,
but they were all killed, you know, one by one,
dragged out of there by the humans and killed. Del
Rozelle says that in her vision, she thinks that she
(26:08):
will offer to the humans the survivors of the Second Foundation.
The library is a place to hide because now it's
buried like far under the city, and Cala says make
some comment about, oh, so maybe this vision is all
a computer's nightmare. Which what did you make of that?
Speaker 3 (26:27):
Yeah, aboo, tell us, tell us what you about that?
Because that was in my notes.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
This was my favorite conversation of this entire episode.
Speaker 4 (26:35):
I mean, this is so good.
Speaker 2 (26:37):
This is so so good. First, I want to say thematically,
we're touching on some very very profound ideas about fate
and predestination, but the meaning we give to our lives
it very much reminds me of the Exhalation short story
that we covered on the show a while back, the
(26:59):
Merchant and the Alchemist game. This idea that like your
life is predestined, the things that will happen will happen,
and that's something that Demoisel is grappling with. But what
cal A is getting at is you can choose whether
or not that the end result is because you're betraying
Foundation or because you are helping Foundation. That choice is
(27:19):
still yours, and that's where the power lies. The meaning
you apply to that final destination is entirely up to you,
even if there's no avoiding the fact that that is
where it will end up. That to me felt very
very powerful and very profound.
Speaker 1 (27:33):
Yeah, that is I'm still thinking about it, like, yeah,
that actually will mean in a decision making sense, Because
what Demozela is struggling with is she knows that she
will probably offer the library as a place of refuge,
but she doesn't know if she is offering it as
(27:55):
a way as the pale death of Empire to wipe
out Second Founded, to get them all in one place
so they can be wiped out, or if it's if
she's doing it to help Second Foundation as a way
to defeat them. She does not know right now, and
Callie basically says, you don't need to worry about that now.
(28:16):
You can decide at the time which one of those
things it's gonna mean, which is I'm just like, wow.
Speaker 4 (28:24):
Yeah, that's really crazy.
Speaker 3 (28:25):
Also, I don't know, I was really I've been feeling
this through the whole of season three, which I do
think for me is the best season of the show
so far. But I also feel like the time we're
living in now, with everything going on, when you have
these conversations, even though they are ostensibly fictional and very
far in the future, I can't help but feel like,
in like, depending on which way the world goes in
(28:46):
like three or four years, we're going to be looking
at this kind of the same way we look at
the original series of Star Trek, which is like they
foresaw phones, they answered these They asked these huge questions
about like, you know, if you get beamed up by Scotty,
are you actually still you? Or was your person that
you left when you're beamed up and broken into many
different pieces?
Speaker 4 (29:08):
Will you?
Speaker 3 (29:09):
Star Trek, you know, was sixty years ahead of its
time with a lot of conversations and stuff it was having.
But this feels like in five years we could be
looking back at this as kind of like a really
important text about the nature of AI, the nature of robotics,
what free will means. It just feels so relevant right now, and.
Speaker 1 (29:30):
We don't even know what Collie is or how right
outside of the prim where she exists. Okay, so we
go to the vault. Gail reveals that she knows the
true nature. She knows how the vault works. Basically, it's
what you see. What people see is only a portion
of the true structure of the vault, which exists between
(29:51):
dimensions or in other dimensions. Mainly the main body of it,
like an iceberg where only the tip is above the water.
That above the water part is the reality that people perceive.
And Gay wants to know, basically, why did you run away?
And Harry's kind of not committal. Harry could have used
(30:13):
the vault to save people, but he says he didn't
because and here we're seeing a little petulance from hologram Harry,
which is kind of the theme of this conversation. He says, well,
you know, I could have used the interdimensional properties to
save more people on New Terminus, but why nobody told
me what was going on? I was just like here,
(30:39):
like a little shadow of that that doesn't have all
the story. And perhaps if I been allowed to know more,
I would have done more. And Harry says that giving
DeMars all the prime the prime Radiant was one a
little bit of petulance because it would force his attention,
in other words, real Harry to notice what he was
(31:00):
doing and that he was still in the mix, and
would also provide for Demarselle a paradox bomb. It would
give her the opportunity to question her programming and to
potentially break out of it by giving her choices. And
I found this to be another fascinating conversation about just
(31:25):
how much influence maybe Harry has had, especially in recent days,
Like I think that giving the paradox bomb idea one
appears to have worked. Yeah, it really does appear to
have worked and thrown demarsel into a state of existential
despair almost And then I mean the forcing Harry to
(31:46):
notice him things. That's why I'm saying again like this,
what is going to come out of it? Also because that,
to me is the confrontation we're all waiting.
Speaker 3 (31:53):
This is also like asking questions in a really deep
way about stuff that we aren't even thinking about yet,
like Halls, like how much information would you put into
a holographic version of yourself that still represents you kind
of alien earthish, I guess with the hybrid But well,
I mean, yeah, all this section.
Speaker 4 (32:10):
Because I'm just ooh. I never even considered that.
Speaker 3 (32:13):
And also it's always great in fiction when somebody creates
the thing that is going to destroy them. So I
think this is very interesting conflict.
Speaker 1 (32:21):
This is very much an Alien Earth type of conversation,
because what if you create another consciousness of yourself. I
assume a body to go off and do a jobs,
but it doesn't know that you you are still running around.
I mean, it would cause a real existential crisis. And
I think that's what Harry's going through now. And I
(32:43):
wonder what Harry will do. I mean, I don't know
about you a boot, but I feel like Harry hologram
Harry is kind of the biggest wild card we.
Speaker 3 (32:51):
Have for it.
Speaker 2 (32:52):
Yeah, yeah, truly, And I really like a lot of
the episodes this season have done this. But we've gotten
these like mirror stories of two characters. Right, we had
My parents have abandoned Me. That was the flashback episode
of the Mule that we got. In this, I think
we're seeing two older guys who are maybe seeing the
end of the road, starting to like really spin out.
(33:15):
In Harry, It's dust. Both of them are making demands
that quite literally have to do with their bodies. Right
dusk says, let me keep my body, don't turn me
into a pile of ash and oligraam. Harry negotiates here
with Gail and is like, give me a body. I
don't want to be just a hologram stuck in a
box anymore. And both of them are quite petulant and
(33:35):
lashing out at the universe in a way that says,
look at me, pay attention to me. I'm consequential. And
I found that I found that parallel very very fascinating.
Speaker 1 (33:46):
Of them me too, because it raises, you know, one
of the things that got me thinking about was, okay,
let's say you know, Harry is a entirely unique preserved consciousness,
like a full mirror image of Harry Selden from a
moment in time, but without a body. He's come to
(34:07):
the point now after centuries of existence, that he's not real.
Unless he has a body, he can't be real. He's
realizing now that he's just like a toy, like like
you mentioned, a toy in a box who has focused
the attention of all of this entire society at him,
who still worship him as this being that he isn't.
(34:27):
But the problem is he now knows he's not that
guy anymore and it's really fucking him up. So you
mentioned it. Gail makes the pitch, help me attack the mule.
Let's use the multi dimensional properties of the vault to
basically teleport me into the muleship and then we can
attack him from the inside. And Harry says, sure, I'll
do it, but you got to get me a body
just like Harry that you know has go ask him
(34:48):
how he got it. She's like, Okay, well, I guess
I gotta figure out how Harry got his.
Speaker 4 (34:53):
Body so crazy.
Speaker 1 (34:55):
Gail and Harry both come outside the foundationers you know,
are so to see basically, you know, God, come out,
Oh my God, Harry, Oh sir, it's so great to see.
And Harry basically tells Gail as they're all kind of
breaking up and going their separate ways, that listen. One
more thing. The mule told me his backstory. There's something
(35:16):
wrong with it. And again, Magnifico is the Mule.
Speaker 4 (35:24):
Baby.
Speaker 2 (35:25):
There's like two episodes in there where we started doubting it.
Speaker 4 (35:28):
But I feel but it's back. That theory is back
on track.
Speaker 3 (35:34):
Baby.
Speaker 1 (35:35):
That one that comment has me feeling like one hundred
percent is gonna. I feel like it's gonna happen.
Speaker 3 (35:43):
I feel like, if you think about the Mule's powers,
it would be really easy for Magnifico, But for the Mule,
if it is Magnifico to project an image of the
guy who it pretends to be into somebody's mind.
Speaker 4 (35:58):
It's an unreliable nary reliable narratives.
Speaker 3 (36:01):
So I don't think that like her seeing the Mule,
as you know, Pilo's version is the thing, you know.
I don't think it is the gotcha that means it
can't happen. I think very clearly something that's wrong about
his backstory could very well find out that that's it,
and that's kind of.
Speaker 2 (36:20):
Hey, I don't remember did he walk into the vault
with the group? Is he with the group right now?
Or is he back in the refugee camp?
Speaker 1 (36:26):
No, I think he went back. Yeah, I think he
went Okay, it was kind of unclear where they all went.
He kind of going. Then we close the episode with
a bunch of little vignettes of our different characters moving
towards this epic confrontation that will surely take up all
of the finale. We see Dusk eating what appears to
(36:48):
be the brain of a cat. It's unhappy with it
as well. Camariselle, uh like in the hall of in
the Hall of History. Yeah, he was like this cat,
My cat is not the it's not up to the
level of the consequential didings. And Demarzelle is in the
Hall of History looking at the paintings, looking at the
(37:09):
images of her kind of robots. Day has emerged from
my Kagen. He's carrying the head up to the palace
to get into you know, like band Wi Fi range
of Demarzelle, and we are off to the finale. I
can't wait. I have any predictions a boot prediction, predict, predict, predict.
Speaker 2 (37:27):
Wow, I don't have predictions, but I can list the
things I'm very excited to see.
Speaker 4 (37:34):
Okay, go for it.
Speaker 2 (37:34):
When that bluetooth connection hits for Demarzel as soon.
Speaker 1 (37:38):
As he's in range, it's gonna be It's gonna be crazy.
Speaker 2 (37:42):
That to me feels like an end of season cliffhanger
t season four, that type of thing. I'm I am
genuinely incredibly excited for the showdown between Gail and Mule
because now I'm wondering with only one episode left, I
don't think that vision is coming to pass. This is
(38:03):
not the final confrontation between the two of them. We're
not near Trantor at all. The Library isn't in play yet.
So this feels like this, which I like because we
the viewer, don't know what this confrontation is going to
be or how it's gonna play out. This feels like
a confrontation in which the Mule like wins or gets away,
and we roll over into season four with the Mule
(38:25):
still as our antagonist. So I'm very much looking forward
to that, and honestly I.
Speaker 1 (38:33):
Am.
Speaker 2 (38:34):
I'm incredibly excited to watch Dusk's ascension. I need to know.
Speaker 4 (38:41):
I think he's going.
Speaker 1 (38:42):
I don't think he's going. I think he's gonna find
a loophole. I think he's going to pass like an
executive order saying that actually ascension day, we're gonna have
to hold on is there's an emergency in the galaxy.
We're gonna have to hold on to that for a
little while. And just.
Speaker 3 (39:04):
Like the number one thing that presidents do if they
want to, or people in power do, is they go, oh, well,
you know, it looks like maybe there's gonna be some
kind of big war that's going to happen or something terrible,
so I need to stay in office. And it's like, so, yeah,
you did it, you create you genocided three planets, Like,
there's probably gonna be some consequences. Maybe you aren't the
one who needs to stick around, but yeah, his odds
(39:26):
are looking interesting.
Speaker 4 (39:28):
As we made a finale.
Speaker 2 (39:31):
A single episode, I'm a little nervous that that is
a lot of weight to put onto one episode, And
I wonder how much of these threads we will leave
dangling for season four and how.
Speaker 1 (39:44):
Many will get rid of a significant amount. Yeah, Well,
here's the one thing that I am really eager to
find out, and I feel like for me, it's the
question that's been hanging over the season is whose plan
are we in?
Speaker 5 (39:56):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (39:57):
Are we in? We're not in Hologram Harry's plan, although
he's been affecting events. The Mule feels like a guy
who worked even though the we probably all agree that
the true nature of the Mule has yet to be revealed.
The Mule does not feel like the final bond. The
Mule feels like a guy who works for another guy.
(40:20):
And are we in Cali's plan?
Speaker 3 (40:23):
Are we in?
Speaker 1 (40:24):
Body? Harry's are we in the robots long term plan
to come back? I don't like, where are we? How
did this? That's what I'm waiting.
Speaker 3 (40:36):
If you're looking at whose plans are going best? Just
de Moselle like existing and then people from this religion
like knowing it kind of puts the robots in a
good stead because that's kind of what they've been looking for,
the messiahs. So I feel like I feel like there's
a I feel like that would be very interesting, but
(40:56):
I honestly have no idea. I feel like the thing
I love about this season is they could do like
a random bottle episode finale and I'd probably just totally
buy it, like whatever they were showing us, Like I am,
I trust in the way they're telling the story. Yeah,
but I'm really interested because, yeah, as someone with like
very little knowledge, and I know this has veered quite
(41:16):
a lot from the original text, but it's very exciting
to go into a finale and be like, wow, literally
anything could happen.
Speaker 2 (41:24):
Yeah, truly.
Speaker 3 (41:26):
Next up, we've got a chat with pill Our Aspect,
who plays the mule in Foundation.
Speaker 1 (41:31):
Yeah, Pilu, thank you for joining.
Speaker 5 (41:48):
Us, Thank you for having me tell us about like,
was there a moment.
Speaker 1 (41:53):
In preparing for this role where you figured out, you
know this, you're playing this character who is someone of
a maniac has say powers. Was there a moment where
you felt like, Okay, I've cracked this guy.
Speaker 3 (42:03):
I know what to do.
Speaker 1 (42:05):
I know I found the core of this murderous gentleman
from space. I don't know.
Speaker 5 (42:12):
I don't know. First of all, it's always interesting when
you're doing an adaptation of something that's been created by
in this case Asimuv and I've tried it before. We
the first time I tried it was on Game of Thrones.
I tried it on Ghost in a Shell and I've
done some Danish adaptations as well. So I have tried
working with an ip before where people are aware of
(42:34):
them source material. And it's always tricky because you know,
with the hot core fans, they always want to how
am I to battle your imagination? You know what I mean?
How can I ever taught what you have been imagining
as a kid or as an adult?
Speaker 3 (42:50):
And so I was.
Speaker 5 (42:53):
You always go in with a massive amount of gratitude,
a massive amount of respect, and a massive amount of
fear because you want to do a good job, and
in this case we're talking about Asimov, who is like
one of the founding fathers of sci fi. You can't
(43:13):
say a Star Wars, Star Trek, you do. You can't
mention any of those sci fi shows or movies without
mentioning Asimov's work. So I read. I read the things
I could find about the Mule. I didn't read all
(43:35):
of the books. My sincere apologies to the fans, but
I found I found the passages around the Mule. But
for me, when I read about him, first of all,
I'm six foot one, I look the way I look,
I'm very different from how he's described in the books.
So I felt I had to do a different approach,
(43:57):
and I tried on Game of Thrones, which you can compare.
Because the reason why I got the Mule was that
David Goya, who had a collaboration with Mi Kay Piespont,
whom I'm a big fan of, he couldn't do the
next season for some weird reason. I don't know. I'm
not into the specific details. But nevertheless, which is very
(44:19):
common in my world, that you you know, you you
he can't do it, He'll do it. She did it,
She's going to do it afterwards, et cetera. And it's
a big show, and the show must go on. He
called me and he said he had seen Game of Thrones.
I'll answer your question, but I'm trying to you know,
(44:39):
it's long, it's a big it's a big answer to
a very very not it's not a simple answer. It's
not a simple question because it's a it's a little
bit complicated. So I'm giving you the whole picture, the
big picture here.
Speaker 3 (44:53):
So I am.
Speaker 5 (44:55):
I had a long talk with David Goya, and I
wasn't really into sci fi. I haven't watched a lot
of sci fi. I've seen a little bit of Star Wars,
I saw Doom when I was a kid, et cetera.
That was about it. I'm into sports. I love I
love soccer. I love American football.
Speaker 1 (45:12):
I'm x who are your clubs?
Speaker 5 (45:16):
Copenhagen and in NFL it's it's San Francisco forty Niners.
Speaker 1 (45:25):
Okay, all right, but it's okay, Yeah.
Speaker 5 (45:32):
I know, I know. But we we we we kind
of like our new We like we like the last
the last guy.
Speaker 2 (45:38):
Sure a good job, no, no, no.
Speaker 5 (45:43):
So so back to the story, and David said, I
love what you did in Game of Thrones, and that's
what I need. I need this for foundation because it's
such a static, statistic, visual, stunning universe world I've created,
and I need that that energy and that cass and
(46:05):
and unpredictable this that you bring into your characters. And
I said, David, I'm completely done with maniac pirates. I
oh wait, wait, wait, wait, wait wait, he's not a pirate.
David interrupted, He's not a pirate. He's not a pirate
at all. This is going to be completely different, I
promise you, all right, I'll read the scripts. And I
(46:27):
read the scripts and on the first page on the
first episode, on the first introduction to the Mule, it's
set space pirate. Thanks a lot, David, but he he
was phenomenal to work with. And then I read it
and then I know what's going to happen, and yeah,
(46:47):
I know what's going to happen in the season because
we we we we did it. And I thought, Okay,
I can I can, I can. I can do this.
I can bring that imminent threat to this world. But
I want to change it up a bit. And I
because I know what's going to happen in seven, eight, nine,
(47:08):
and ten, I asked David if I could have him,
have him a little bit more childish, and I was.
I was super inspired by Le Petit Ponce The Little Prince.
That's the reason why I'm wearing a red cape, because
the thing is with The Little Prince made a French
(47:31):
children's book by Sanctibs. It's about a little guy stuck
on a planet with his best friend as a rose.
He doesn't understand human beings. He wants to understand animals,
he wants to understand fellow citizens, and he goes to
Earth to get to know these What is it to
be a human? What is it to have friendship? What
(47:52):
is it to feel love? What is this weird, little
surreal place they called the world Earth? And I thought
that was kind of fitting to the Mule because he's
a guy who's never really felt any love, and the
love here. And now I can spoil this because we
saw that in season in episode seven. I knew that
was gonna happen, so I just said, okay, but that's
(48:14):
making crazy ass. Let's make him disturbed, that's make him
my metallic, that's making all these things. That is inspired
by the books as well. And then the reason why
he's so keen. I'm saying, you will all come to
love me. He needs to love and love love is
because the people that should have given him love, his
parents didn't, and it's you know, a villain is a villain.
(48:40):
But at least he wasn't just wanted to see the
world burn because he wanted to see the foundation burn.
He wanted to see them rot in hell because they
destroyed his life, They ruined his life, they divided his family,
and in his mind, you know, if you're evil, you
(49:04):
will justify your evilness by on logical thinking that he
killed his parents because of them, not because he's born
with evil within or he's got it within, but because
they forced him to do it. And I kind of
like that because most villains that I do, they're always
(49:25):
just they want to just see the world burn, which
is interesting, but you know, I've done it for ten years.
Speaker 2 (49:30):
So and did you think by the time you had
embodied the role and shot the season, do you agree
with David more than just a space pirate?
Speaker 3 (49:40):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (49:40):
I agree with David, but I also think it would
have been kind of nice to have that revelation at
the beginning so people wouldn't be so uptight about the portray.
Actually I've gotten great, great, great response, but you know,
it's it's always nice to get the background story up front.
(50:03):
But I did a TV show called Borg and a
daily show about politics and Denmark, like ten years ago,
and that was like a woll phenomenon, sold to like
one hundred and ten countries before streaming, so that was
like a massive hit all over the world. And that
show was the reason the reason why I got Game
of Thrones because Dan and David had watched Dan Dan
(50:25):
and David, the showrunners of Game of Thrones, they had
watched Borg and there in that season one, he's molested.
My characters molested as a child, and we don't know
that until episode six, and I learned there that you
cannot you cannot act the story of a character before
it's presented to the audience. So I can always do
(50:49):
a lot of great acting or shit acting, depending on
the eyes of depending on the beholder, but it has
to be on the pages for you to illustrate it
on you know, so I can nuance it as much
as possible, but at the end of the day, if
there isn't a background story, it might just be a
(51:09):
little bit more dimensional, one dimensional than a three dimensional villain.
Speaker 1 (51:15):
Having a career that has spanned your work in Denmark
and Europe to now internationally streaming with Game of Thrones
and Foundation, you know, you've had this career that's not
only spanned this large geography, but has gone on for
now a decade plus. What changes have you seen in
(51:36):
that time, going from working in Denmark to now working
on these projects that go all over the world.
Speaker 5 (51:46):
It's, first of all, right now with industry, I'm just
super happy to work. Shares a massive crisis. There's a
massive crisis in Hollywood and in European cinema as well.
So just to be able to work is a gift,
you know, it's it's it's it's hard to to to
(52:07):
live off your passion. I don't know if I can
say that. I don't know if that makes any sense
in English, but you know, I get to work with
with what I love, and that is to act. And
right now there's not a lot of jobs, and for
some weird reasons, because the work I do in Denmark,
I'm always the hero. In my Danish work, in my
Scandinavian work, in my European work, I'm never the villain.
(52:30):
But for some weird reason, the moment I crossed the
Atlantic Ocean, I become a villain. Maybe because I have
an accent, maybe because that's how the world sees me.
I don't know. I just know that that. I just
know that a movie or TV show is only as
good as main villain. And I've done a few now,
(52:52):
But I can also say I love villains, but I'm
also I've done my share, I've done my chair, and
I love I got to mention one more villain, I said,
which I loved. I loved the guy. Did you ever
see Overlord.
Speaker 1 (53:09):
Overlord, the movie Overlord?
Speaker 5 (53:11):
Yeah? Yeah, yeah. I was the villain in that one
as well. I was a Nazi soombie from the Third Reich.
And that was hysterical because I was talking to Mass Migleson,
who's a good friend of mine because he's also Danish,
and Mass and I were sitting and comparing villains because
Mass is always doing villains as well. And and and
(53:33):
you know when you when we were kids, you would
have those cards you could play like like like or
like Pokemon cards, but you would play a part and
then you would go back and forth right and and
I ended up telling mess. But mass, I did a
Nazi zombie. How how are you gonna top that one?
Speaker 6 (53:50):
Right?
Speaker 5 (53:51):
And he was like, I did Hannibal. I'm like, still,
I did a Nazi zombie. Okay, tough, and that's why
I'm everything.
Speaker 2 (54:02):
Yeah, peeple, I'm curious. You've been referencing your Danish career
a lot, and I wonder, now that you're working so
internationally and now that you're playing the villain, has your
career playing the hero for so many years prepared you
to play the villain better? Do you feel like, like, what,
what have you carried over from your years working in
(54:24):
Denmark and Europe into your villain roles.
Speaker 5 (54:30):
That's a great question because the thing is, when you're
doing a hero, he's always, in my case, the glue.
He's the one who's got to be steady throughout the
entire story. You're carrying this whole script on your shoulders,
along with the rights of the director and every single
other crew member. But you are carrying the story. If
(54:52):
your performance doesn't work, the story will crumble. That's the
same thing that when you're doing a villain, you're not
carrying the whole story on your shoulders. You're there to
submit or add your flavor to the script, your your
color to the palette. And I wouldn't say it's easier,
(55:14):
but I would say it's more fun. And I'm super
privileged that I can be working both in America and
at home. I can do both. I can go to US,
I can do my villains, I can make a little
bit of money. I can get the house, I can
get the car. I've had the same wife for twenty years.
(55:36):
We have a daughter, so I'm not going to get
a new marriage. But and then I can go home
and maybe do some work that is maybe a little
bit more challenging, a little bit more autistic, weird, surreal.
We call them festival films. You know, you do something
for the box office, and then you do something for
(55:58):
two people where one of them is your mom and
the other one is you. And I love it, I
think right. And also I think I'm in my beginning forties,
and the way I am as a person, the way
I read the script, the characters that I get to
portray or fitting my age now better than it did
(56:22):
ten years ago. So for me, I'm like, I'm knock
on wood. I should I should I've done this for
eighteen years now, so I should be pretty okay good
at it, but you're still learning. It's still a process.
It's still an investigation into how far can we go
and what character can you be so lucky to portray.
(56:46):
But of course, if I had to do more villains,
which I will for sure, I would love to have
much more psychology into it, much more dimensional, much more
an anti hero who's more misunderstood. There's a bit of
it in the Mule. There was zero in it in
Game of Thrones. There's a bit more of that kind
(57:08):
of layered character in the Mule. And hopefully I would
I would get to do one more. I think one
like Breaking Bad. That's a great exam I think that's
that's a good antagonist. He's the executor and the victim.
And I always think that is the most interesting characters
because then you're working within within this space of of
(57:33):
people acknowledging, acknowledging and understanding but also fearing your character.
And I think that's a very interesting that's a very
interesting field to work within within yeap.
Speaker 2 (57:49):
And oftentimes makes the most memorable villains.
Speaker 5 (57:52):
Yeah, and and and and and For me, the top
three villains honestly, it's Hans Kuba die Hard. Yeah, because
it's just phenomenal. It's just Alan Rickman being fucking awesome. Yeah, sorry,
I didn't. I don't know if I can absolutely feel free.
(58:15):
And and Valdemort in Harry Potter, Yeah, because it's so
well written. It's it's it's it's it's a sad story.
He's a sad characters. He's talking about being misunderstood and
therefore he ends up becoming evil because it's something that
he's got within him. And and I've always loved Gary
(58:38):
Oldman in lyon the Professional.
Speaker 1 (58:43):
Yeah, every.
Speaker 5 (58:48):
And I did.
Speaker 6 (58:51):
I didn't homage. I didn't homage in in in In
in the Mule. In episode two with the Little Girl, he's.
Speaker 5 (59:02):
Talking about everyone loving him, everyone loving him, and I thought,
I'm gonna I'm gonna yell this line. I'm just gonna
tell you I want to go.
Speaker 1 (59:14):
Yeah, well, Pelu, we'll leave you with this. So uh
F C Copenhagen currently sitting atop the standings your predictions
for the twenty five twenty six Danish Super League season?
How are you feeling about FC Copenhagen and then how
are you feeling about it?
Speaker 5 (59:32):
Win the we're gonna win it. We're gonna win the league, okay,
and hopefully qualified for Champions League. We will know on
Wednesday night. Yes, that's very important.
Speaker 1 (59:45):
Yes, big money and a huge stage to get into
the Champions And how do you feel the forty nine ers,
how are you feeling as we head into the season.
Speaker 5 (59:54):
I don't know, man. If we can just get the playoffs,
that would be We have a lot of injuries the
last season. Yes, and if McCarthy is up there, he's
eighty percent of the team. And I'm not expecting fortnit
Is to win. I think I think some of the
other teams are just too good. But if we can
(01:00:16):
get to the playoffs, that would be awesome.
Speaker 1 (01:00:20):
Peelu, thank you so much for joining us, and congratulations
on season three. Foundation.
Speaker 5 (01:00:25):
Thank you so much, and thank you guys for having me.
And once again, this is for all the listeners. I
forgot the first interview we're supposed to do and I
came fifteen minutes late for this one, so my sincere apologies.
But what a week we waited, because now with episode seven,
(01:00:46):
we've got some more things to talk about.
Speaker 1 (01:00:48):
Yeah, yeah, thank you. Once again, I have a great
one well, that's it for this episode. We're onto the finale.
Thanks for listening, Aboo, thanks for joining us of course.
Speaker 3 (01:00:59):
Bye x ray.
Speaker 1 (01:01:05):
Vision is hosted by Jason Spcion and Rosie Knight and
is a production of iHeart Podcast.
Speaker 3 (01:01:10):
Our executive producers are Joel Monique and Aaron Kaufman.
Speaker 1 (01:01:14):
Our supervising producer is Abu Zafar.
Speaker 3 (01:01:16):
Our producers are Common, Laurent Dean Jonathan and Bay Wag.
Speaker 1 (01:01:21):
A theme song is by Brian Vasquez, with alternate theme
songs by Aaron Kaufman.
Speaker 3 (01:01:25):
Special thanks to Soul Rubin, Chris Lord, Kenny Goodman and
Heidi our discord moderator.
Warrant. Today's episode can spoilers for season three episode nine
of Foundation. Hello, my name is Jason Zepsi and on Mersey.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Night and I'm a.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
Boo Podcast where we dived video favorite drills, movies, colleagues
of pop culture, Cody Roi our podcast. We're reading three
episodes a week plus news on Saturday.
Speaker 3 (00:43):
Wow, it's there's three episodes a week and three hosts.
Today is in today's episode because we are talking about
Foundation season three episode nine, unbelievable episode of television. Very
glad to have super producer at Boo here to not
only talk about it, but also give us some more
insight into where we expect the season to go as
(01:04):
we head towards the final episode.
Speaker 4 (01:06):
But first we got to just recap it.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
Let's recap it, okay, Foundation Season three episode nine, The
Paths That Choose Us. We open up seemingly minutes after
the events of that closed episode eight, with Gail and
her squad arrived on New Terminus, now being hunted by
the Mules folks led by the Warden. Gail kind of
(01:32):
pretty easily uses her metallic powers to negate the Mules
ground forces. She takes one of the mules lieutenants the
warden prisoner and interrogates her, probes her mind. The Warden
is insisting, listen, I'm just doing what I always did,
but now I'm doing it for the Mule, like I'm
(01:53):
protecting the citizens of New Terminus, and I want to
be doing this. I love what I'm doing, like the Mule.
How's its love? What's going on? Because you you wouldn't
even know the truth from Alie, because that's the power
that the Mule has. So I'm gonna have to like
(02:15):
go into your mind and check things out. So they
go into Gail's mind interrogation room, which is a hut
from her home planet that is like flooded with water,
and immediately Gale, like you know, knows basically all the
biographical information that she needs to do about the Warden.
(02:37):
She knows, but she wants to know more about the Mule.
Wants to know what he's planning. The Warden can't say
because and now the pain begins to come out, and
in the psychic plane, the Mule like swims up out
of the water, grabs a ward and drags her down
and begins to drown her. In real life, she's hemorrhage's
blood from all her orifices and dies while I have
(03:00):
never known such love.
Speaker 3 (03:02):
Okay, first of all, horrific, extremely creepy, really great creepy moment,
and we get to see this kind of battle of
the mentallic powers in this really gory way.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
In this episode, I draw the line of eye stuff
and this was too much.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
Eye stuff for me, got me like freaks.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
I hurt me for the rest of the episode.
Speaker 3 (03:27):
I couldn't stop thinking about it. Also, this, I have
never known such love. You guys did a great interview
with Pillow, who plays a couple of episodes ago, who
plays the Mule, and he kind of talked about how
the Mule not being someone who necessarily had a lot
of love or a lot of following or a lot
of people around him kind of shaped him. And I
(03:48):
feel like, now this, I have never known such love.
He's kind of feels like he's like brainwashing people to
care about him, to agree with him, but also to
love him. That's kind of I got gathered from this moment.
Did you kind of pick up the same thing?
Speaker 2 (04:05):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (04:05):
Absolutely, yeah, yeah, yeah, clearly I think that that's how
his as we are going to find out this is
how his power works. It feels like love, and that's
why the people who he touches with his powers seems
so absolutely devoted to him. Pritch appears out of the
woods and Gail's like, well, I got a mind scan
(04:29):
him to make sure that he hasn't been touched by
the Mule. She takes him into the Psychic Water Hut
and he's untouched by the Mule. He's fine, man, She's
so happy.
Speaker 4 (04:38):
He's just he's just.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
He's purely incompetent without any kind of his own pritchet.
And she's super sexy guy that's kind of been fucking
up for the whole season.
Speaker 4 (04:51):
But it's fine, just like untouched by the mule taller
than me.
Speaker 3 (04:56):
A hans I was like, you know what, go for it, Gail,
you just have something happy in your life.
Speaker 1 (05:01):
Meanwhile, the Mule is up on his spaceship in orbit
around New Terminus and he's continuing to troll Dawn. Beta
is upset at this entire display. The Mule says that hey,
I just got a DM from the Galactic Council saying
they want to give me trantor what do you think
(05:22):
about that?
Speaker 4 (05:23):
Feel doesn't sound good?
Speaker 1 (05:24):
Dawn, we go to Trantor, the Galactic Council, the Cloud Dominion,
and the Aluminites, the three breakaway governments from within Empire
go to meet Demarzelle. Maassador Quent is there just observing
because she has technically no job anymore. She's just hanging
(05:48):
out now. Dusk is nowhere to be seen, and and
de Marcel is like, don't worry, that's not a problem.
I will I'm Empire today, I'm representing him. Quent disagrees
with forcing the Empire's hands. She basically tells the insurgents like, listen,
I understand, Empire. Listen, I've been fucking Dusk for a
(06:08):
little while now, so I understand like how he governs,
and he's just not going to take kindly to this
kind of ultimatum. You know, it's just really not gonna work.
Like there's a different way that we can get what
we want. They're like, whatever, sounds like, we're doing it.
We're handing Tran toward to the mule. Dusk appears via hologram,
(06:31):
and then the Mule arrives via hologram, which is actually,
you know, you're like, okay, Dusk smarter than we gave
him credit for it. Doesn't want to be close enough
to the mule so that the mule could affect his mind.
And so Dusk lays out the offer, okay, Trantor to
the mule in exchange for peace, and of course Dusk
(06:53):
is like, and if you knew where I was, you
would include me in that deal. I'm sure, but guess
what I'm keeping Trantur, no deal, And the Mules like, well,
that doesn't matter because I can very easily pick you off,
like it doesn't actually what you think doesn't actually matter.
But then Dusk's like, oh yeah, what about the navaculate
(07:14):
the big bomb baby?
Speaker 4 (07:17):
He bought this thing out. I was like, are you
kidding me?
Speaker 1 (07:20):
Big bomb baby? This is LaBamba Grande. And the insurrectionists
and Quent are like whoa big bomb? Like, what are
you going to do with that? This is That's not good.
Dusk then, without any further delay, no speech, nothing, there's
(07:41):
no fourthwith uses the bomb to wipe out the Galactic
Council homework.
Speaker 4 (07:47):
It's Gonsane.
Speaker 1 (07:49):
Just gone. And then Cloud Dominion and then the Maiden
Aluminite Home World want you. It's like Steph Curry from
Deep a Striple genocide by Dusk.
Speaker 3 (08:02):
Also like, why does he have to be such a
fucking like he's he's so.
Speaker 4 (08:08):
Over the top of it, Like when he says that,
you know, the iluminite hold world was called the Maiden.
Speaker 3 (08:14):
It always made me think it needed to be deflowered.
Speaker 4 (08:17):
And then he blows it up. I'm like, God, that
was crazy.
Speaker 3 (08:21):
Like you gotta say, you're gonna crazy, You're gonna like
all the bomb, You're gonna the bomb, Like Dusk plays
chill out, so.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
He does this, and listen, I think, like from a
purely geo strategic sense, you could say, Okay, I kind
of understand it, but truly a horror we've just witnessed.
Speaker 4 (08:41):
You're talking about Billy.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
Everybody.
Speaker 4 (08:43):
It's like three.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
Everybody is a ghast. Don is basically like, don't fuck
with Empire, okay. Mule immediately logs off down then turns
to the insurrectionist leader and it's like, hey, you've seen
what I've done for Ambassador Quent, who is in a
(09:05):
similar situation with no home world or home organization. Now
feel free to live here. I will give you refuge.
You guys canna hang out of the palace. It's fine.
And then you know, Quent is like crying. Even Demarzelle
seems shocked, like this is crazy. Dawn watching this from
(09:27):
the space station, can't believe what he's seen, and he
then warns the Mule, like, hey, Dusk might aim the
bombit at you, and Mule says no because he if
he knew, that's only if he would have done it already.
We go to New Terminus. Gail realizes that the fighting
on the planet means that not everyone is under the
mules control. And here again we're getting these hints that
(09:50):
while the Mule's powers are certainly nothing to sneeze at,
there are hints of vulnerabilities, and here is some that
there continues to be fighting and clean up on New Terminus.
Pritchard then takes Gail and her squad down to like
an underground area where the refugees are hiding, and torn
(10:12):
Mallow is down there as well as Professor Ebling Miss
They all meet Gail and Gail's like, okay, you guys
are clean without you're untouched by the Mule. I've got
some big reveals for you guys, And here they are.
One second Foundation. It exists and it's run by me.
Oh Harry Selden put me in charge of it. Now.
(10:33):
At this point in time, they don't realize that there's
two Harry's. But that's very complicated and they'll figure that out.
And then she says, I want all of your help
in killing the mule. That's my plan. That's my goal,
is to kill the mule. And Torn's like, I love it.
He's got my wife. Let's start in on it right now.
Mcgale's like, hold on one thing before we start. I
(10:54):
have to check the mind of this last guy, Magnificent,
the DJ who I am, And I've checked everybody.
Speaker 4 (11:01):
Kim fast, seeing as he came from Okay.
Speaker 1 (11:05):
There's a lot going on. So she's getting to it now,
and before she really gets into it, Magnifico is like love,
speaking of love. The only person I love is Beta. Oh,
I love her, She's been so kind to me. But
then as Gail reaches out to touch Magnifico's mind, she
finds love for the mule in there, so they have
(11:29):
to It's I.
Speaker 3 (11:30):
Read how they showed this with the mule kind of
round his neck, like choking him, but hugging him. It
was like such a good visual. I thought, Yeah, I
feel like This is just such a strong panne on
the episode. It really feels up there with your kind
of bigger shows that more people are watching right now.
I feel like this is still a hidden jam.
Speaker 1 (11:49):
So they tie up Magnifico, and Torren is like trying
to level with him, like, guy, let's listen, just let
go of the mule, like you just He's also arguing
to everybody else like let's not just execute Magnifico. He
must have there's got to be a use for him.
Gail is like, well, okay, for now, we won't do
(12:12):
it because if he is going to betray us, I
will sense it. I now feel like I now feel like,
hold on, magnifical is the mule is now back? I
think it's back in place, simply just like it's Vaggin.
Speaker 4 (12:31):
Why is she just?
Speaker 3 (12:32):
She immediately is just like yeah, I'll sense it, And
it's like, but you haven't even checked him before.
Speaker 2 (12:37):
Very I the arguments on either side of the group,
Torn being like let's not kill this guy, trust me, right,
and everyone just agreeing, and then Gail being like, yeah,
let's not kill this guy. I'll he won't sneak attack
us because I'll sense it first Gail, when have you
ever sensed that first? Exactly never. There's no precedent for that,
So why do I trust you to do that?
Speaker 1 (12:57):
It's it's very Yoda in the Clone War is saying,
you know that if there was a syth that he
would yeah, yeah, he know. Anyway, we go to Micigen.
Day wakes up down in the water at the bottom
of a bong.
Speaker 4 (13:13):
Absolutely what it is.
Speaker 3 (13:15):
I agree the giant gods of this well, they're smoking
out bong because that war is.
Speaker 1 (13:20):
So down there. He's down there amongst the roaches and
the little pieces of ash and the different things. It's
gross down there. This is where the mushrooms are growing.
They start to grow in his skin. He tries to
climb out, but it's very difficult to climb out, but
then someone flushes the bong and he ends up out
(13:42):
in a sewer control room and Song is there. She
pulls the fungus off his skin, and she saved him
because she realizes like he was telling the truth about
Danielle slash Demersel, and that's their messiah. Something must be done.
Day says, listen, I'm gonna go up to the courtroom.
I'm going to confront mister Sunmaster confront Yeah, and I'm
(14:07):
gonna get that authentic robot head to bring to Demarzelle
and Song and her partner Ocean or all for it.
Sun Master's up there making some kind of spear way.
I need not reach out to the mule Ale. They
need to bide by time and see what the mule has.
(14:28):
And as he's doing this, as Day barges in kicking
people out of the way, then chases Sunmaster around the
courtroom and then it later impaled him with the staff
crazy throws him down onto the dais and takes off
with the head. Thus ends sun Master.
Speaker 3 (14:50):
The head off to He's just like boom, like when
they've been using ly pay so well in this season,
Like every time he shows up, he makes such a
big impact. And this is just what it's like, such
a funny. It's a badass action sequence, but it's also
hilarious because he really just goes in there and fucking
kills him.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
But were you hoping for one last speech, yes from
sun Master, one last.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
I wanted one last like juicy confrontation between sun Master
and Day actually, and I was kind of like, oh, wait,
is he just shoving people what's happening here? Like it's
full on, like Rambo, like no negotiation at this point,
a quick way to get skull in Day's hands. But
(15:39):
I'll admit I was a little disappointed.
Speaker 1 (15:41):
I know, I was hoping for one more pronunciation of
high high above in the palace, dusk is in the
throne room, or excuse me, the hall of clones. Basically
talking shit, talking ship about all the previous the conciliator,
(16:05):
give me a fucking the conger, get a load of
this guy. And then he then tells Demarzelle as he
comes to his own bust, that he does not like
his sobriquette, which I'm now forgetting. What was it the
was it the conciliator? I think it was the concilia.
(16:26):
He doesn't like that because nobody really understands what that means.
Also basically means like the nice guy.
Speaker 3 (16:32):
Not a good piece going on. You have not conciliated anything,
my friend like this.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
So he says, I would like the consequential, and Demarzelle's like, okay,
but let's not rush into it. A lot of things
going on. You're about to be ascended. We don't know
the outcome of your triple genocides, like, we don't know.
That's a huge disruption to the gallaxy.
Speaker 3 (16:55):
We don't know how it's gonna happen.
Speaker 1 (16:59):
Dusk then says, hold on, hold, who whoa whoa Demorselle,
let's not get it twisted. The triple genocide and the
navacular my ideas. So as we go forward, let's make
sure let's not forget this is why I want consequential,
because it was me, not Day, not dawn. They're out
(17:19):
of the picture. I came up with that. Okay, that's me, DeMars.
Demarsel says, Okay, listen, you're getting very very fired up
right now, but let's not forget that you are getting
ascended in tomorrow. Do you love it?
Speaker 4 (17:41):
You think you get you can kill like two billion
people and incorrect.
Speaker 3 (17:46):
She's like, you're get you're a naughty boy.
Speaker 1 (17:50):
The Dusk is like, of course, I'm not. I would
not do something that is beg from my I know
I'm getting this. I'm fine with it.
Speaker 5 (18:04):
I am.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
Cool. All I want, Demarzelle, is when I am gone,
for you to say nice things about me and for
people to understand that I was consequential. Okay, And by
the way, demarselle, I can't help but notice the strain
upon your brow, A lot on your mind right now,
what's going on? Why don't you talk to the Zephyr
(18:27):
about it? And Demarsel's like, well, I think it's a
bad idea because you just wiped out. Aluminites are fucking dead,
and I think that would be that would be chaotic
and unpredictable, So I don't think it's a good idea.
So so Deusk's like, well, listen, I'm dying tomorrow anyway,
(18:49):
I got nothing but time right now. Let's why don't
you just unburden yourself, like, tell me right now. And
this is a fascinating moment because then de Marcella's like,
you know what, that's true. You are dying right now,
so I'll do it. She tells him about the meetings
with the Zephyr and the Garden. She tells him about
how as she walked the garden labyrinth, she thought of
(19:09):
her own mind, how the labyrinth had one path to
enter and exit, one kind of labyrinthine path, and that
was like her own fate. She thought she there was
only one possible option for her to choose, and that
was always her dedication to empire. But now she has realized, oh,
(19:29):
I think there are other choices and how do I
explore these? And now she's wondering, in this existential way,
has she been unconsciously examining these other options before her?
And do these options lead to the destruction of empire?
(19:52):
And is that what's causing her distress that she might
have been secretly working towards the destruction of Empire? And
Dusks like, hmmm, a lot to think about, Okay, silly
Billy Eddie Leeves. As he's leaving, He's like, now, I
(20:14):
don't forget. I want to see consequential on that bus
before I die. Get the wake somebody up.
Speaker 3 (20:20):
If I put him on the mosel, I'd be given
him a new nickname of like Dusty annoying, Like this
man just cannot deal with his fate and the cycle
of how life works.
Speaker 1 (20:30):
Yeah, it's fantastic. I thought this was a absolutely fascinating
conversation and your thoughts on this.
Speaker 2 (20:36):
I agree. This was a highlight for me in this
episode because I'm realizing I think over the course of
this season we have been maybe over the course of
all three seasons, we have been witnessing a robot grapple
with free will and come to terms with free will
and what that means for its existence, something that humans
are quite intimately familiar with, right like, free will is
(21:00):
scary the way Demrosel describes it here, She's like, oh, am,
I obligated to explore all options? Do I what if
one of the options is bad?
Speaker 3 (21:09):
You know?
Speaker 2 (21:09):
That's humans do that all the time, and a thousand
different decisions. And a robot that's only had one directive
for thousands of years is now realizing it can maybe
do other stuff, And boy is that scary.
Speaker 1 (21:24):
I think the other thing that is terrifying her is
the possibility that she's been exploring these options without fully
being connisant of it. She's been kind of finding these
unconscious loopholes to work against her programming. Is fascinating. This
(21:44):
conversation clearly awakens something in her, because she goes straight
to she wants to see the ninth Kale's ninth Proof
of folding. She's like, I don't care that it's banned.
I'm fucking Demarsell, get me in there. She then examines
it using the prime radiant, and she sends her consciousness
into the primary to visit because her math was integral
to the design of the prime rating Calai herself. Calai
(22:09):
arrives and it's the lady who made the body for
Harry crazy the being of pure energy. This is a
crazy reveal and then very exciting and it makes a
lot of sense on tour new termin Ees excuse make
(22:38):
Gail and the team arrive before the vault. Gail and
Pritchard go up to it. Gail goes inside to see
Harry and he's like, Oh, it's so great to see
you after all these years. We go to the throne room.
Dusk meets with his girlfriend Quinn, who is obviously extremely
shaken by the triple genocide that she witness and you know,
(23:01):
it's kind of a big deal when it happens, and
even a big deal when your boyfriend did it. He's like, babe,
can you ever forgive me kill billion people?
Speaker 4 (23:13):
I know?
Speaker 3 (23:13):
This is like such a good scene too, because Quentn
is just like so disgusted and starts to kind of
have the same questions a lot of people, like, so
this is what you're doing, Like does how does this
solve the problem? Like? How are these the numbers that
we and yet, Jason, why why do you think he
cares about getting out forgiveness when he's only got one
(23:35):
more day to live.
Speaker 1 (23:36):
He's trying to crack when work correct before, I mean
sincerity there, Like we all knew what he wanted. The
twinkle in his eye was very clear. Can you ever
forgive me? Let's talk about this in my bed? And
of course Quent Quent can't let the destruction of billions
(24:00):
of lives go. And they argue about this. Dusk then
points out that, well, you know, Seldon's plan wasn't much better.
It's not like anybody has the answer right now. I
was thinking on the spot and I did what I
had to do.
Speaker 4 (24:15):
Yeah, who hasn't done that? Who amongst?
Speaker 1 (24:19):
Quinn agrees that like, okay, the foundation has been discredited
and Selden's psychohistory is clearly on. Shake your ground right now.
But I can't agree with a triple genocide. That's just crazy.
And Dusk is like, well, that's when you sit in
a big chair, you gotta make big boy decisions. I'm sorry,
that's just how power works. And the mule made me
do it, Like if the mule hadn't a waged war
(24:40):
against the entire galaxy. I wouldn't have had to do that,
but I had to do it. And Seldon ran away
and everybody else ran away. It was only me, Dusk,
the consequential nickname. They're calling me, giving crazy. It's only me,
(25:03):
the consequential standing between the Mule and the galaxy. And
Quinn is like, no, you're not consequentially, You're scared, and
then she walks away crazy. We go back to the library,
Demarsel and Kylie are chopping it up. Kyllie is very
very cagey about what she is and who she is
and how she can still be here in this moment.
(25:24):
She's just very mysterious, but she is amazed at Demarzelle
is like, man, they when they say they don't make
them like they used to, they're right, because it's crazy
that you still work. Wow, robots still working after five
thousand years. Demarsel then wants to know through Calais, if
the vision she saw from Gail, the war between the
Mule and Gaale taking place in the library, if it
(25:47):
was real and we learned that five thousand years ago,
the surviving robots hid in what was then the library,
where her vision of the battle with the mule takes place,
but they were all killed, you know, one by one,
dragged out of there by the humans and killed. Del
Rozelle says that in her vision, she thinks that she
(26:08):
will offer to the humans the survivors of the Second Foundation.
The library is a place to hide because now it's
buried like far under the city, and Cala says make
some comment about, oh, so maybe this vision is all
a computer's nightmare. Which what did you make of that?
Speaker 3 (26:27):
Yeah, aboo, tell us, tell us what you about that?
Because that was in my notes.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
This was my favorite conversation of this entire episode.
Speaker 4 (26:35):
I mean, this is so good.
Speaker 2 (26:37):
This is so so good. First, I want to say thematically,
we're touching on some very very profound ideas about fate
and predestination, but the meaning we give to our lives
it very much reminds me of the Exhalation short story
that we covered on the show a while back, the
(26:59):
Merchant and the Alchemist game. This idea that like your
life is predestined, the things that will happen will happen,
and that's something that Demoisel is grappling with. But what
cal A is getting at is you can choose whether
or not that the end result is because you're betraying
Foundation or because you are helping Foundation. That choice is
(27:19):
still yours, and that's where the power lies. The meaning
you apply to that final destination is entirely up to you,
even if there's no avoiding the fact that that is
where it will end up. That to me felt very
very powerful and very profound.
Speaker 1 (27:33):
Yeah, that is I'm still thinking about it, like, yeah,
that actually will mean in a decision making sense, Because
what Demozela is struggling with is she knows that she
will probably offer the library as a place of refuge,
but she doesn't know if she is offering it as
(27:55):
a way as the pale death of Empire to wipe
out Second Founded, to get them all in one place
so they can be wiped out, or if it's if
she's doing it to help Second Foundation as a way
to defeat them. She does not know right now, and
Callie basically says, you don't need to worry about that now.
(28:16):
You can decide at the time which one of those
things it's gonna mean, which is I'm just like, wow.
Speaker 4 (28:24):
Yeah, that's really crazy.
Speaker 3 (28:25):
Also, I don't know, I was really I've been feeling
this through the whole of season three, which I do
think for me is the best season of the show
so far. But I also feel like the time we're
living in now, with everything going on, when you have
these conversations, even though they are ostensibly fictional and very
far in the future, I can't help but feel like,
in like, depending on which way the world goes in
(28:46):
like three or four years, we're going to be looking
at this kind of the same way we look at
the original series of Star Trek, which is like they
foresaw phones, they answered these They asked these huge questions
about like, you know, if you get beamed up by Scotty,
are you actually still you? Or was your person that
you left when you're beamed up and broken into many
different pieces?
Speaker 4 (29:08):
Will you?
Speaker 3 (29:09):
Star Trek, you know, was sixty years ahead of its
time with a lot of conversations and stuff it was having.
But this feels like in five years we could be
looking back at this as kind of like a really
important text about the nature of AI, the nature of robotics,
what free will means. It just feels so relevant right now, and.
Speaker 1 (29:30):
We don't even know what Collie is or how right
outside of the prim where she exists. Okay, so we
go to the vault. Gail reveals that she knows the
true nature. She knows how the vault works. Basically, it's
what you see. What people see is only a portion
of the true structure of the vault, which exists between
(29:51):
dimensions or in other dimensions. Mainly the main body of it,
like an iceberg where only the tip is above the water.
That above the water part is the reality that people perceive.
And Gay wants to know, basically, why did you run away?
And Harry's kind of not committal. Harry could have used
(30:13):
the vault to save people, but he says he didn't
because and here we're seeing a little petulance from hologram Harry,
which is kind of the theme of this conversation. He says, well,
you know, I could have used the interdimensional properties to
save more people on New Terminus, but why nobody told
me what was going on? I was just like here,
(30:39):
like a little shadow of that that doesn't have all
the story. And perhaps if I been allowed to know more,
I would have done more. And Harry says that giving
DeMars all the prime the prime Radiant was one a
little bit of petulance because it would force his attention,
in other words, real Harry to notice what he was
(31:00):
doing and that he was still in the mix, and
would also provide for Demarselle a paradox bomb. It would
give her the opportunity to question her programming and to
potentially break out of it by giving her choices. And
I found this to be another fascinating conversation about just
(31:25):
how much influence maybe Harry has had, especially in recent days,
Like I think that giving the paradox bomb idea one
appears to have worked. Yeah, it really does appear to
have worked and thrown demarsel into a state of existential
despair almost And then I mean the forcing Harry to
(31:46):
notice him things. That's why I'm saying again like this,
what is going to come out of it? Also because that,
to me is the confrontation we're all waiting.
Speaker 3 (31:53):
This is also like asking questions in a really deep
way about stuff that we aren't even thinking about yet,
like Halls, like how much information would you put into
a holographic version of yourself that still represents you kind
of alien earthish, I guess with the hybrid But well,
I mean, yeah, all this section.
Speaker 4 (32:10):
Because I'm just ooh. I never even considered that.
Speaker 3 (32:13):
And also it's always great in fiction when somebody creates
the thing that is going to destroy them. So I
think this is very interesting conflict.
Speaker 1 (32:21):
This is very much an Alien Earth type of conversation,
because what if you create another consciousness of yourself. I
assume a body to go off and do a jobs,
but it doesn't know that you you are still running around.
I mean, it would cause a real existential crisis. And
I think that's what Harry's going through now. And I
(32:43):
wonder what Harry will do. I mean, I don't know
about you a boot, but I feel like Harry hologram
Harry is kind of the biggest wild card we.
Speaker 3 (32:51):
Have for it.
Speaker 2 (32:52):
Yeah, yeah, truly, And I really like a lot of
the episodes this season have done this. But we've gotten
these like mirror stories of two characters. Right, we had
My parents have abandoned Me. That was the flashback episode
of the Mule that we got. In this, I think
we're seeing two older guys who are maybe seeing the
end of the road, starting to like really spin out.
(33:15):
In Harry, It's dust. Both of them are making demands
that quite literally have to do with their bodies. Right
dusk says, let me keep my body, don't turn me
into a pile of ash and oligraam. Harry negotiates here
with Gail and is like, give me a body. I
don't want to be just a hologram stuck in a
box anymore. And both of them are quite petulant and
(33:35):
lashing out at the universe in a way that says,
look at me, pay attention to me. I'm consequential. And
I found that I found that parallel very very fascinating.
Speaker 1 (33:46):
Of them me too, because it raises, you know, one
of the things that got me thinking about was, okay,
let's say you know, Harry is a entirely unique preserved consciousness,
like a full mirror image of Harry Selden from a
moment in time, but without a body. He's come to
(34:07):
the point now after centuries of existence, that he's not real.
Unless he has a body, he can't be real. He's
realizing now that he's just like a toy, like like
you mentioned, a toy in a box who has focused
the attention of all of this entire society at him,
who still worship him as this being that he isn't.
(34:27):
But the problem is he now knows he's not that
guy anymore and it's really fucking him up. So you
mentioned it. Gail makes the pitch, help me attack the mule.
Let's use the multi dimensional properties of the vault to
basically teleport me into the muleship and then we can
attack him from the inside. And Harry says, sure, I'll
do it, but you got to get me a body
just like Harry that you know has go ask him
(34:48):
how he got it. She's like, Okay, well, I guess
I gotta figure out how Harry got his.
Speaker 4 (34:53):
Body so crazy.
Speaker 1 (34:55):
Gail and Harry both come outside the foundationers you know,
are so to see basically, you know, God, come out,
Oh my God, Harry, Oh sir, it's so great to see.
And Harry basically tells Gail as they're all kind of
breaking up and going their separate ways, that listen. One
more thing. The mule told me his backstory. There's something
(35:16):
wrong with it. And again, Magnifico is the Mule.
Speaker 4 (35:24):
Baby.
Speaker 2 (35:25):
There's like two episodes in there where we started doubting it.
Speaker 4 (35:28):
But I feel but it's back. That theory is back
on track.
Speaker 3 (35:34):
Baby.
Speaker 1 (35:35):
That one that comment has me feeling like one hundred
percent is gonna. I feel like it's gonna happen.
Speaker 3 (35:43):
I feel like, if you think about the Mule's powers,
it would be really easy for Magnifico, But for the Mule,
if it is Magnifico to project an image of the
guy who it pretends to be into somebody's mind.
Speaker 4 (35:58):
It's an unreliable nary reliable narratives.
Speaker 3 (36:01):
So I don't think that like her seeing the Mule,
as you know, Pilo's version is the thing, you know.
I don't think it is the gotcha that means it
can't happen. I think very clearly something that's wrong about
his backstory could very well find out that that's it,
and that's kind of.
Speaker 2 (36:20):
Hey, I don't remember did he walk into the vault
with the group? Is he with the group right now?
Or is he back in the refugee camp?
Speaker 1 (36:26):
No, I think he went back. Yeah, I think he
went Okay, it was kind of unclear where they all went.
He kind of going. Then we close the episode with
a bunch of little vignettes of our different characters moving
towards this epic confrontation that will surely take up all
of the finale. We see Dusk eating what appears to
(36:48):
be the brain of a cat. It's unhappy with it
as well. Camariselle, uh like in the hall of in
the Hall of History. Yeah, he was like this cat,
My cat is not the it's not up to the
level of the consequential didings. And Demarzelle is in the
Hall of History looking at the paintings, looking at the
(37:09):
images of her kind of robots. Day has emerged from
my Kagen. He's carrying the head up to the palace
to get into you know, like band Wi Fi range
of Demarzelle, and we are off to the finale. I
can't wait. I have any predictions a boot prediction, predict, predict, predict.
Speaker 2 (37:27):
Wow, I don't have predictions, but I can list the
things I'm very excited to see.
Speaker 4 (37:34):
Okay, go for it.
Speaker 2 (37:34):
When that bluetooth connection hits for Demarzel as soon.
Speaker 1 (37:38):
As he's in range, it's gonna be It's gonna be crazy.
Speaker 2 (37:42):
That to me feels like an end of season cliffhanger
t season four, that type of thing. I'm I am
genuinely incredibly excited for the showdown between Gail and Mule
because now I'm wondering with only one episode left, I
don't think that vision is coming to pass. This is
(38:03):
not the final confrontation between the two of them. We're
not near Trantor at all. The Library isn't in play yet.
So this feels like this, which I like because we
the viewer, don't know what this confrontation is going to
be or how it's gonna play out. This feels like
a confrontation in which the Mule like wins or gets away,
and we roll over into season four with the Mule
(38:25):
still as our antagonist. So I'm very much looking forward
to that, and honestly I.
Speaker 1 (38:33):
Am.
Speaker 2 (38:34):
I'm incredibly excited to watch Dusk's ascension. I need to know.
Speaker 4 (38:41):
I think he's going.
Speaker 1 (38:42):
I don't think he's going. I think he's gonna find
a loophole. I think he's going to pass like an
executive order saying that actually ascension day, we're gonna have
to hold on is there's an emergency in the galaxy.
We're gonna have to hold on to that for a
little while. And just.
Speaker 3 (39:04):
Like the number one thing that presidents do if they
want to, or people in power do, is they go, oh, well,
you know, it looks like maybe there's gonna be some
kind of big war that's going to happen or something terrible,
so I need to stay in office. And it's like, so, yeah,
you did it, you create you genocided three planets, Like,
there's probably gonna be some consequences. Maybe you aren't the
one who needs to stick around, but yeah, his odds
(39:26):
are looking interesting.
Speaker 4 (39:28):
As we made a finale.
Speaker 2 (39:31):
A single episode, I'm a little nervous that that is
a lot of weight to put onto one episode, And
I wonder how much of these threads we will leave
dangling for season four and how.
Speaker 1 (39:44):
Many will get rid of a significant amount. Yeah, Well,
here's the one thing that I am really eager to
find out, and I feel like for me, it's the
question that's been hanging over the season is whose plan
are we in?
Speaker 5 (39:56):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (39:57):
Are we in? We're not in Hologram Harry's plan, although
he's been affecting events. The Mule feels like a guy
who worked even though the we probably all agree that
the true nature of the Mule has yet to be revealed.
The Mule does not feel like the final bond. The
Mule feels like a guy who works for another guy.
(40:20):
And are we in Cali's plan?
Speaker 3 (40:23):
Are we in?
Speaker 1 (40:24):
Body? Harry's are we in the robots long term plan
to come back? I don't like, where are we? How
did this? That's what I'm waiting.
Speaker 3 (40:36):
If you're looking at whose plans are going best? Just
de Moselle like existing and then people from this religion
like knowing it kind of puts the robots in a
good stead because that's kind of what they've been looking for,
the messiahs. So I feel like I feel like there's
a I feel like that would be very interesting, but
(40:56):
I honestly have no idea. I feel like the thing
I love about this season is they could do like
a random bottle episode finale and I'd probably just totally
buy it, like whatever they were showing us, Like I am,
I trust in the way they're telling the story. Yeah,
but I'm really interested because, yeah, as someone with like
very little knowledge, and I know this has veered quite
(41:16):
a lot from the original text, but it's very exciting
to go into a finale and be like, wow, literally
anything could happen.
Speaker 2 (41:24):
Yeah, truly.
Speaker 3 (41:26):
Next up, we've got a chat with pill Our Aspect,
who plays the mule in Foundation.
Speaker 1 (41:31):
Yeah, Pilu, thank you for joining.
Speaker 5 (41:48):
Us, Thank you for having me tell us about like,
was there a moment.
Speaker 1 (41:53):
In preparing for this role where you figured out, you
know this, you're playing this character who is someone of
a maniac has say powers. Was there a moment where
you felt like, Okay, I've cracked this guy.
Speaker 3 (42:03):
I know what to do.
Speaker 1 (42:05):
I know I found the core of this murderous gentleman
from space. I don't know.
Speaker 5 (42:12):
I don't know. First of all, it's always interesting when
you're doing an adaptation of something that's been created by
in this case Asimuv and I've tried it before. We
the first time I tried it was on Game of Thrones.
I tried it on Ghost in a Shell and I've
done some Danish adaptations as well. So I have tried
working with an ip before where people are aware of
(42:34):
them source material. And it's always tricky because you know,
with the hot core fans, they always want to how
am I to battle your imagination? You know what I mean?
How can I ever taught what you have been imagining
as a kid or as an adult?
Speaker 3 (42:50):
And so I was.
Speaker 5 (42:53):
You always go in with a massive amount of gratitude,
a massive amount of respect, and a massive amount of
fear because you want to do a good job, and
in this case we're talking about Asimov, who is like
one of the founding fathers of sci fi. You can't
(43:13):
say a Star Wars, Star Trek, you do. You can't
mention any of those sci fi shows or movies without
mentioning Asimov's work. So I read. I read the things
I could find about the Mule. I didn't read all
(43:35):
of the books. My sincere apologies to the fans, but
I found I found the passages around the Mule. But
for me, when I read about him, first of all,
I'm six foot one, I look the way I look,
I'm very different from how he's described in the books.
So I felt I had to do a different approach,
(43:57):
and I tried on Game of Thrones, which you can compare.
Because the reason why I got the Mule was that
David Goya, who had a collaboration with Mi Kay Piespont,
whom I'm a big fan of, he couldn't do the
next season for some weird reason. I don't know. I'm
not into the specific details. But nevertheless, which is very
(44:19):
common in my world, that you you know, you you
he can't do it, He'll do it. She did it,
She's going to do it afterwards, et cetera. And it's
a big show, and the show must go on. He
called me and he said he had seen Game of Thrones.
I'll answer your question, but I'm trying to you know,
(44:39):
it's long, it's a big it's a big answer to
a very very not it's not a simple answer. It's
not a simple question because it's a it's a little
bit complicated. So I'm giving you the whole picture, the
big picture here.
Speaker 3 (44:53):
So I am.
Speaker 5 (44:55):
I had a long talk with David Goya, and I
wasn't really into sci fi. I haven't watched a lot
of sci fi. I've seen a little bit of Star Wars,
I saw Doom when I was a kid, et cetera.
That was about it. I'm into sports. I love I
love soccer. I love American football.
Speaker 1 (45:12):
I'm x who are your clubs?
Speaker 5 (45:16):
Copenhagen and in NFL it's it's San Francisco forty Niners.
Speaker 1 (45:25):
Okay, all right, but it's okay, Yeah.
Speaker 5 (45:32):
I know, I know. But we we we we kind
of like our new We like we like the last
the last guy.
Speaker 2 (45:38):
Sure a good job, no, no, no.
Speaker 5 (45:43):
So so back to the story, and David said, I
love what you did in Game of Thrones, and that's
what I need. I need this for foundation because it's
such a static, statistic, visual, stunning universe world I've created,
and I need that that energy and that cass and
(46:05):
and unpredictable this that you bring into your characters. And
I said, David, I'm completely done with maniac pirates. I
oh wait, wait, wait, wait, wait wait, he's not a pirate.
David interrupted, He's not a pirate. He's not a pirate
at all. This is going to be completely different, I
promise you, all right, I'll read the scripts. And I
(46:27):
read the scripts and on the first page on the
first episode, on the first introduction to the Mule, it's
set space pirate. Thanks a lot, David, but he he
was phenomenal to work with. And then I read it
and then I know what's going to happen, and yeah,
(46:47):
I know what's going to happen in the season because
we we we we did it. And I thought, Okay,
I can I can, I can. I can do this.
I can bring that imminent threat to this world. But
I want to change it up a bit. And I
because I know what's going to happen in seven, eight, nine,
(47:08):
and ten, I asked David if I could have him,
have him a little bit more childish, and I was.
I was super inspired by Le Petit Ponce The Little Prince.
That's the reason why I'm wearing a red cape, because
the thing is with The Little Prince made a French
(47:31):
children's book by Sanctibs. It's about a little guy stuck
on a planet with his best friend as a rose.
He doesn't understand human beings. He wants to understand animals,
he wants to understand fellow citizens, and he goes to
Earth to get to know these What is it to
be a human? What is it to have friendship? What
(47:52):
is it to feel love? What is this weird, little
surreal place they called the world Earth? And I thought
that was kind of fitting to the Mule because he's
a guy who's never really felt any love, and the
love here. And now I can spoil this because we
saw that in season in episode seven. I knew that
was gonna happen, so I just said, okay, but that's
(48:14):
making crazy ass. Let's make him disturbed, that's make him
my metallic, that's making all these things. That is inspired
by the books as well. And then the reason why
he's so keen. I'm saying, you will all come to
love me. He needs to love and love love is
because the people that should have given him love, his
parents didn't, and it's you know, a villain is a villain.
(48:40):
But at least he wasn't just wanted to see the
world burn because he wanted to see the foundation burn.
He wanted to see them rot in hell because they
destroyed his life, They ruined his life, they divided his family,
and in his mind, you know, if you're evil, you
(49:04):
will justify your evilness by on logical thinking that he
killed his parents because of them, not because he's born
with evil within or he's got it within, but because
they forced him to do it. And I kind of
like that because most villains that I do, they're always
(49:25):
just they want to just see the world burn, which
is interesting, but you know, I've done it for ten years.
Speaker 2 (49:30):
So and did you think by the time you had
embodied the role and shot the season, do you agree
with David more than just a space pirate?
Speaker 3 (49:40):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (49:40):
I agree with David, but I also think it would
have been kind of nice to have that revelation at
the beginning so people wouldn't be so uptight about the portray.
Actually I've gotten great, great, great response, but you know,
it's it's always nice to get the background story up front.
(50:03):
But I did a TV show called Borg and a
daily show about politics and Denmark, like ten years ago,
and that was like a woll phenomenon, sold to like
one hundred and ten countries before streaming, so that was
like a massive hit all over the world. And that
show was the reason the reason why I got Game
of Thrones because Dan and David had watched Dan Dan
(50:25):
and David, the showrunners of Game of Thrones, they had
watched Borg and there in that season one, he's molested.
My characters molested as a child, and we don't know
that until episode six, and I learned there that you
cannot you cannot act the story of a character before
it's presented to the audience. So I can always do
(50:49):
a lot of great acting or shit acting, depending on
the eyes of depending on the beholder, but it has
to be on the pages for you to illustrate it
on you know, so I can nuance it as much
as possible, but at the end of the day, if
there isn't a background story, it might just be a
(51:09):
little bit more dimensional, one dimensional than a three dimensional villain.
Speaker 1 (51:15):
Having a career that has spanned your work in Denmark
and Europe to now internationally streaming with Game of Thrones
and Foundation, you know, you've had this career that's not
only spanned this large geography, but has gone on for
now a decade plus. What changes have you seen in
(51:36):
that time, going from working in Denmark to now working
on these projects that go all over the world.
Speaker 5 (51:46):
It's, first of all, right now with industry, I'm just
super happy to work. Shares a massive crisis. There's a
massive crisis in Hollywood and in European cinema as well.
So just to be able to work is a gift,
you know, it's it's it's it's hard to to to
(52:07):
live off your passion. I don't know if I can
say that. I don't know if that makes any sense
in English, but you know, I get to work with
with what I love, and that is to act. And
right now there's not a lot of jobs, and for
some weird reasons, because the work I do in Denmark,
I'm always the hero. In my Danish work, in my
Scandinavian work, in my European work, I'm never the villain.
(52:30):
But for some weird reason, the moment I crossed the
Atlantic Ocean, I become a villain. Maybe because I have
an accent, maybe because that's how the world sees me.
I don't know. I just know that that. I just
know that a movie or TV show is only as
good as main villain. And I've done a few now,
(52:52):
But I can also say I love villains, but I'm
also I've done my share, I've done my chair, and
I love I got to mention one more villain, I said,
which I loved. I loved the guy. Did you ever
see Overlord.
Speaker 1 (53:09):
Overlord, the movie Overlord?
Speaker 5 (53:11):
Yeah? Yeah, yeah. I was the villain in that one
as well. I was a Nazi soombie from the Third Reich.
And that was hysterical because I was talking to Mass Migleson,
who's a good friend of mine because he's also Danish,
and Mass and I were sitting and comparing villains because
Mass is always doing villains as well. And and and
(53:33):
you know when you when we were kids, you would
have those cards you could play like like like or
like Pokemon cards, but you would play a part and
then you would go back and forth right and and
I ended up telling mess. But mass, I did a
Nazi zombie. How how are you gonna top that one?
Speaker 6 (53:50):
Right?
Speaker 5 (53:51):
And he was like, I did Hannibal. I'm like, still,
I did a Nazi zombie. Okay, tough, and that's why
I'm everything.
Speaker 2 (54:02):
Yeah, peeple, I'm curious. You've been referencing your Danish career
a lot, and I wonder, now that you're working so
internationally and now that you're playing the villain, has your
career playing the hero for so many years prepared you
to play the villain better? Do you feel like, like, what,
what have you carried over from your years working in
(54:24):
Denmark and Europe into your villain roles.
Speaker 5 (54:30):
That's a great question because the thing is, when you're
doing a hero, he's always, in my case, the glue.
He's the one who's got to be steady throughout the
entire story. You're carrying this whole script on your shoulders,
along with the rights of the director and every single
other crew member. But you are carrying the story. If
(54:52):
your performance doesn't work, the story will crumble. That's the
same thing that when you're doing a villain, you're not
carrying the whole story on your shoulders. You're there to
submit or add your flavor to the script, your your
color to the palette. And I wouldn't say it's easier,
(55:14):
but I would say it's more fun. And I'm super
privileged that I can be working both in America and
at home. I can do both. I can go to US,
I can do my villains, I can make a little
bit of money. I can get the house, I can
get the car. I've had the same wife for twenty years.
(55:36):
We have a daughter, so I'm not going to get
a new marriage. But and then I can go home
and maybe do some work that is maybe a little
bit more challenging, a little bit more autistic, weird, surreal.
We call them festival films. You know, you do something
for the box office, and then you do something for
(55:58):
two people where one of them is your mom and
the other one is you. And I love it, I
think right. And also I think I'm in my beginning forties,
and the way I am as a person, the way
I read the script, the characters that I get to
portray or fitting my age now better than it did
(56:22):
ten years ago. So for me, I'm like, I'm knock
on wood. I should I should I've done this for
eighteen years now, so I should be pretty okay good
at it, but you're still learning. It's still a process.
It's still an investigation into how far can we go
and what character can you be so lucky to portray.
(56:46):
But of course, if I had to do more villains,
which I will for sure, I would love to have
much more psychology into it, much more dimensional, much more
an anti hero who's more misunderstood. There's a bit of
it in the Mule. There was zero in it in
Game of Thrones. There's a bit more of that kind
(57:08):
of layered character in the Mule. And hopefully I would
I would get to do one more. I think one
like Breaking Bad. That's a great exam I think that's
that's a good antagonist. He's the executor and the victim.
And I always think that is the most interesting characters
because then you're working within within this space of of
(57:33):
people acknowledging, acknowledging and understanding but also fearing your character.
And I think that's a very interesting that's a very
interesting field to work within within yeap.
Speaker 2 (57:49):
And oftentimes makes the most memorable villains.
Speaker 5 (57:52):
Yeah, and and and and and For me, the top
three villains honestly, it's Hans Kuba die Hard. Yeah, because
it's just phenomenal. It's just Alan Rickman being fucking awesome. Yeah, sorry,
I didn't. I don't know if I can absolutely feel free.
(58:15):
And and Valdemort in Harry Potter, Yeah, because it's so
well written. It's it's it's it's it's a sad story.
He's a sad characters. He's talking about being misunderstood and
therefore he ends up becoming evil because it's something that
he's got within him. And and I've always loved Gary
(58:38):
Oldman in lyon the Professional.
Speaker 1 (58:43):
Yeah, every.
Speaker 5 (58:48):
And I did.
Speaker 6 (58:51):
I didn't homage. I didn't homage in in in In
in the Mule. In episode two with the Little Girl, he's.
Speaker 5 (59:02):
Talking about everyone loving him, everyone loving him, and I thought,
I'm gonna I'm gonna yell this line. I'm just gonna
tell you I want to go.
Speaker 1 (59:14):
Yeah, well, Pelu, we'll leave you with this. So uh
F C Copenhagen currently sitting atop the standings your predictions
for the twenty five twenty six Danish Super League season?
How are you feeling about FC Copenhagen and then how
are you feeling about it?
Speaker 5 (59:32):
Win the we're gonna win it. We're gonna win the league, okay,
and hopefully qualified for Champions League. We will know on
Wednesday night. Yes, that's very important.
Speaker 1 (59:45):
Yes, big money and a huge stage to get into
the Champions And how do you feel the forty nine ers,
how are you feeling as we head into the season.
Speaker 5 (59:54):
I don't know, man. If we can just get the playoffs,
that would be We have a lot of injuries the
last season. Yes, and if McCarthy is up there, he's
eighty percent of the team. And I'm not expecting fortnit
Is to win. I think I think some of the
other teams are just too good. But if we can
(01:00:16):
get to the playoffs, that would be awesome.
Speaker 1 (01:00:20):
Peelu, thank you so much for joining us, and congratulations
on season three. Foundation.
Speaker 5 (01:00:25):
Thank you so much, and thank you guys for having me.
And once again, this is for all the listeners. I
forgot the first interview we're supposed to do and I
came fifteen minutes late for this one, so my sincere apologies.
But what a week we waited, because now with episode seven,
(01:00:46):
we've got some more things to talk about.
Speaker 1 (01:00:48):
Yeah, yeah, thank you. Once again, I have a great
one well, that's it for this episode. We're onto the finale.
Thanks for listening, Aboo, thanks for joining us of course.
Speaker 3 (01:00:59):
Bye x ray.
Speaker 1 (01:01:05):
Vision is hosted by Jason Spcion and Rosie Knight and
is a production of iHeart Podcast.
Speaker 3 (01:01:10):
Our executive producers are Joel Monique and Aaron Kaufman.
Speaker 1 (01:01:14):
Our supervising producer is Abu Zafar.
Speaker 3 (01:01:16):
Our producers are Common, Laurent Dean Jonathan and Bay Wag.
Speaker 1 (01:01:21):
A theme song is by Brian Vasquez, with alternate theme
songs by Aaron Kaufman.
Speaker 3 (01:01:25):
Special thanks to Soul Rubin, Chris Lord, Kenny Goodman and
Heidi our discord moderator.
Hosts And Creators
Jason Concepcion
Rosie Knight
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