May 29, 2025 • 53 mins
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Jason and Rosie are inviting the council of Jackson Hole (Producers: Aaron and Joelle) to discuss the finale episodes of The Last of Us season 2.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Worry.
Speaker 2 (00:00):
Today's episode will contain spoilers for the Last of US
season two and of course season one, and maybe some
of the game too.
Speaker 3 (00:08):
Oh, I think the game is gonna come up.
Speaker 4 (00:24):
Helloa.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
It is Jason Gncepcion and on Mesday Night and welcome
back to x Ravasion of the Podcast, where we dive
deep idiot favorite shows, movies, comics of pop culture company
from my our podcast, We're We're Very three episodes a
week every Tuesday, Thursday and Friday, plus Dubs News on
Tatoes News.
Speaker 5 (00:42):
You can only whisper. It's like a lore them me.
But in today's episode, Wow, we're convening the jackson Hole
Council or I guess now maybe it's like the Satellite
Seactle Council for the Last of US season two round
table off the that pretty shocking finale, which I am
(01:04):
so excited to see how people felt about it.
Speaker 4 (01:08):
I can't wait to see.
Speaker 5 (01:10):
Dude, this has gonna be crazy divisive, like not necessarily
in the council, I don't know, but in the bandom,
like I think people are gonna.
Speaker 4 (01:19):
Be in the fandom.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
Well, listen, that's not considering, that's not especial. Okay, let's
get into it, all right, folks, please welcome super producers
Joeell and Aaron to the show.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
Fuel Rage Fire.
Speaker 5 (01:40):
I gotta say, any fucking person who questioned whether Bella
Ramsey had the juice, they better be swallowing those words
right now, because this episode is a powerhouse.
Speaker 3 (01:54):
Aaron, how you doing?
Speaker 6 (01:56):
I mean I never questioned whether or not Bella had
the juice. I questioned whether or not Bella was use
it like h during in a physical pain, and then
we see.
Speaker 3 (02:05):
All the bruises on her back.
Speaker 4 (02:06):
All right, yeah, she's getting it. I get it.
Speaker 6 (02:08):
She's this is real stunts. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (02:10):
No, okay, So.
Speaker 2 (02:11):
Let's just quick thirty thousand foot view. What did we
think of the season before we get to the finale, Joelle,
Let's start with you.
Speaker 7 (02:21):
Well, I was talking to Aaron before we hopped on Mike,
and I was fresh. I was like, damn you, Craig,
because the whole season I was like, wow, this is
paced so awkwardly, like I don't understand, Like we have
this great character Isaac Comini, barely spend any time with
him at all, like or bouncing back and forth.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
We got flashbacks like.
Speaker 4 (02:41):
Handra Hen does handra Han have a line? Does Alma
you have a line? I mean we just kind of
see her through a scene.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
Yeah, maybe, like and so it was.
Speaker 7 (02:50):
It was irritating to me because I never felt like
I was enveloped in the story. The pacing was just
so jarring. But then this finale was so damn good.
I was like, it's so good, and it brought me
back to this. He did an interview with Tony Gilroy
on his podcast script Writing, script Notes, script Notes Notes,
and he was saying like, I don't know when I'll
(03:12):
go back to being able to make a movie like
I've signed on for this. It's such a long journey.
I was like, ah, buddy, you made a movie. You
made a movie instead of a TV show. And I'm
not even mad about it.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
It's good.
Speaker 7 (03:23):
I just sort of wish we had been able to
binge it. I think a lot of this fan bs
like where.
Speaker 1 (03:29):
There were so many people who genuinely enjoyed the game.
Speaker 7 (03:31):
It had genuine critiques that I think we're valid that
I think might have enjoyed the series a great deal
more if they had been able to just binge it
and get the whole idea in one not one sitting
like one or two?
Speaker 4 (03:43):
Are we and or pilled? Have we been like and
or season two pilled? Is that the.
Speaker 3 (03:47):
Issue have been hand or pilled?
Speaker 5 (03:49):
I also think that for a show with only seven episodes,
and I understand, look, we did weekly coverage of this show,
and we were absolutely not the only podcast or outlet
do it. Like I get HBO gets the conversation going,
but I think that in this specific case, if they
had done a secret binge drop, this would have been
perceived as such a stronger season because it.
Speaker 3 (04:12):
Is very uneven.
Speaker 5 (04:13):
But I do think that the finale ties things together
and leaves us in a space where I actually want
to know what's going to happen. Yeah, it makes the
journey worth it. Aaron, how did the season sit for you?
Speaker 4 (04:25):
I loved it. I loved it.
Speaker 6 (04:26):
I mean I think in our last roundtable after episode five,
we briefly talked about how season one felt more focused
on individual storylines and season two has been all about
these groups and these armies or these organizations or cities
and the people within it. And I really felt like
the season finale did such a good job of showing
(04:47):
that all of these communities are at risk when one
individual acts out and is brash and is dangerous and
goes against what the community maybe should do and then
suddenly like, you know, whether it be Abby going and
doing more than the rest of the WLF team wanted
when they capture Joel and staying longer and then that
(05:09):
puts all of them at risk and then they're dying,
or whether it's Ellie like doing things that you know,
she the town council voted against. Like, it's really interesting
to see this finale bring it all back together and say,
this show is still about individual choices and it's sometimes
a really horrible result for the rest of the people involved.
Speaker 5 (05:29):
Let's talk a little bit more about kind of more
zoomed in, specifically about the finale. Joel, what was it
that worked for you and kind of what was your
journey as you went from that opening all the way
to that finale, which at the final moments I think
are going to really have people talking.
Speaker 7 (05:48):
I think so too, Okay, I think two things worked
for me. One, the thesis of season one seemed to
be like what will you do for love?
Speaker 1 (05:56):
Like what's the line?
Speaker 7 (05:57):
Right?
Speaker 5 (05:58):
Right?
Speaker 7 (05:59):
In season two, it's all culminated and like what happens
to the children, and it's so hammered home beautifully in
this final episode where constantly you know, Ellie's sort of
predicants whole idea. She's very concerned of like I am
a good person and my best friend doesn't think so,
like nobody sees me as being good, and she's like,
I had to save that kid. I'm a good person,
Like Joel was a good person.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
He saved me.
Speaker 7 (06:20):
Then later she's betrayed by a child on the banks.
You know, if she'd been tactically thinking that was a
very cute little girl, but you might have taken her
out because you know, survival, it's wild out here.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
And then of course with the tragedy.
Speaker 7 (06:34):
At the end, with a pregnant woman understanding she's dying
and be like, please just save my kid. What happens
to the kids, and so to like so strongly repeat
that theme and really like narrow laser focus it in
on Ellie. Part two of what really works is Ellie's
rage is now understandable. I still wish we had a
(06:55):
little peeps of it, even if it was in her
silent moments, if she wasn't expressing it with her friends
or whatever I do, which we had a little bit
more throughout the season, but for it when the confrontation,
when she's like, hey, that's I found it.
Speaker 1 (07:10):
That's the wheel on the wheel.
Speaker 7 (07:11):
Okay, I'm gonna go like like there's a storm and
Tommy's out there, And it was crazy to be like
Tommy's out there and she's like, yeah, but Tommy would
want me to go get Joel's killer, and it's like, well,
Tommy's alive.
Speaker 4 (07:24):
Tommy is alive, right, yeah, you here. You could go
get it and.
Speaker 7 (07:29):
Still go get revenge for Joel, but you can't even
differentiate like time and space. You're just so laser focused,
and like seeing those decisions play out again, and everything
before and everything after so much more like palpable and intense,
and I think all of that just calmlated so beautifully together.
I really enjoyed, like watching those sequences. It was heartbreaking.
Speaker 3 (07:52):
Yeah, I was.
Speaker 5 (07:53):
Shocked actually by how much I enjoyed it because I
really struggled with uh Nora's death in the season. I
felt like it didn't feel authentic to Ellie. I felt
like it was very just like a light switch that
I didn't really understand why it was turned on, And
I didn't think that it was particularly well done, and
(08:13):
I just it made me dislike Ellie, but not in
a way that felt intentional. But the way that they
dealt with melan Owen and the changes they made, I
found it to be incredibly affecting.
Speaker 4 (08:27):
Yeah, I did too. I thought that. I mean that
the scene where.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
Ellie is trying to figure out how she can follow
these instructions to save the child are so harrowing and
hard to watch. And I think also, you know, if
there's one thing this this season has done right, I
think it's drilling down on that idea that while Ellie
(08:57):
is doing something that I think we all all that
resonates with us in a very human and emotional way,
you know, revenge justice. You feel like something totally unjustice
happened and you want to make it right and you
have it in your power to make it right, and
at the same time examining how that can turn you
(09:23):
into like an angel of death.
Speaker 4 (09:26):
You know, even.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
It's like, yeah, you can whisper to her as she's dying, hand,
I didn't mean it.
Speaker 4 (09:37):
You know, like, what what does that really mean? Yeah?
What does that really mean?
Speaker 2 (09:42):
To not have meant to do that? And you would
ask the same of of Joel. And it made me
think of I watch I watched this show on the
beleaguered Showtime network, Couple Therapy.
Speaker 5 (10:01):
A couple of Therapy, extra vision crossover.
Speaker 3 (10:04):
It could happen. He love that.
Speaker 2 (10:06):
But she she was talking to this couple who were
having you know, there's these recriminations going back and forth,
like you did this, okay, yeah, but like I did
that because you did this first. And she was like, actually, wait,
hold on, I want to stop you because it's not
actually important who did what first. Both partners were like, well,
(10:26):
I think it is important because it's and she's like, yes,
in a legal sense, like if we were in a courtroom,
that's important, right, But in terms of stopping this of
moving on from this cycle, it's not important. And that
scene really reminded me of that because I think it's
(10:49):
you know, we've talked a lot about the changes that
they've made visa v Elie, and we've talked a lot
about some of the more unhinged criticisms of Eli.
Speaker 4 (11:00):
They nerved her.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
She's not like this crazy John wa and and I
think those changes are positive. And I think they're positive
because of this scene here this is the scene where
whatever they end up doing, if they end up following
the kind of blueprint of the game with the in
(11:22):
the final confrontation between Ellie and Abbey, it's because of this.
Speaker 4 (11:27):
Scene that it will make sense.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
And I just thought it was tremendously impactful and important
and kind of what the entire show is about is
like either choose life or choose death, but you can't
choose them both.
Speaker 6 (11:45):
You really can't choose them both. Aaron, Yeah, this was
a heartbreaking scene. I mean, mel dying and and just
whispering you're doing You're doing great, You're doing great, like
that was heartbreaking. And also I think, really, you know
season one, the finale of season one opens with Ellie
(12:07):
being born like her mom is attacked by infected and
then she is born as her mother is dying and
is saved by Marlene. But that was like an infected attack,
and then here we have another living, non infected human
killing this mother and a much worse outcome where the
baby does not make it. And it was I think
(12:29):
just like the change in these two scenes in the finale,
like like Joelle's talking about with kids with the offspring,
and like the future generations not working out this time
feels so depressing and dark.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
And I would argue the worst thing that Ellie did
was not immediately turn around when she found out that
Dina is pregnant.
Speaker 4 (12:51):
Like yes, what are you talking about?
Speaker 5 (12:52):
Like and go back even if you know like Dina did,
she said, Oh, I don't think you know. I want
revenge too. I don't give a shit. Get on the
fucking horse. We're going home, Like that's h And I
really loved what they did with Jesse and Ellie in
this episode. I think those conversations so.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
He puts the responsibility squarely on her, Hey what about
my life? What about my relationship with my child too?
And I'm here bailing you out of this.
Speaker 3 (13:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (13:29):
And I also thought there was something so interesting.
Speaker 3 (13:32):
You know, we have been.
Speaker 5 (13:33):
Quite critical of the way to WLF and the Scars
have kind of been left as almost these kind of
archetypal antagonists rather than any kind of given much depth.
But I thought what was kind of unbelievable in this
episode was just realizing how absolutely nihilistic and unnecessary the
(13:57):
whole war is and how clear it's like, actually this
is fucking stupid, Like you guys could be living in
this space and there is no need for you to
be chopping out each other's guts or sniping people, Like
why the fuck does it matter, Like that's what you're
choosing to do.
Speaker 7 (14:13):
But then also how ingrained it is, like yeah, no,
cut her guts, like you're like, oh yeah, it's it's
so ingrained in how they operate they can't even think
beyond like like even Abby's rushing in at the end,
Like you know, in our first interaction with Abby, the
show makes a change from the games. We understand to
(14:36):
some extent her decision making, but we're so Unjual's side
of things where we're and and it's awful to watch
Ellie have to process this in real time.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
And the end though, you're kind of like, I get
why you gotta shoot Ellie girl?
Speaker 4 (14:50):
Yeah, yeah, she kills.
Speaker 7 (14:51):
Your pregnant bestie, Like she's out here wreaking havoc.
Speaker 4 (14:54):
You let her go clearly.
Speaker 5 (14:56):
Very close to Abby, whether it's the p A ship
or whatever. I also think something that was really well
done is I like the changes they made to Owen
and Mel's story from the game, like weren't well if
in the game, Owen kind of like runs away from
the WLF after he accidentally kills another member, and Mel
(15:22):
does die, but there is not the It is not
in the situation where Ellie is like purposefully not gonna
kill her. It's like she's gonna kill her. Then she
finds out she's pregnant and she's upset afterwards, and that
is one of the most heart wrenching parts of part two.
But I think the way that they did at this time,
where Ellie clearly did not want to kill either of them,
(15:43):
but again that cycle of violence Owen has to get
the gun. Owen doesn't believe that Ellie is going to
allow them to live, so he tries to kill her,
and that leads to both of them dying and that
kind of horrific shock, And this is I'm not gonna lie.
This is also a trophy love from films and where
you think somebody has survived and then you realize that
(16:03):
actually they have also been shot. You know.
Speaker 3 (16:06):
I thought that was so affecting.
Speaker 5 (16:08):
And I also think the actress that plays Mel is
just unbelievable. The small amount of time that she has
on screen and the absolute impact that she makes is
just I want to see her in a million other things.
I think she's absolutely fantastic. And that moment, like you said, Aaron,
(16:30):
like when she's telling Ellie like her nursing, her caretaker nature,
she just can't stop it. So she's kind of saying
to Ellie like you're doing great, like you you know,
like she's just so kind to Ariella Bearer, and she
is just so fantastic. And I think I was already
(16:53):
a fan of hers from Stargirl, but I just was
really moved by those scenes, and I felt like they
gave us a lot more to go on.
Speaker 7 (17:01):
It was like discovering the core of who she was
exactly right, like if if, if everything else is going
away and this is just her lizard brain left it.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
This was just a nice woman.
Speaker 4 (17:12):
Yeah, it's really.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
It also made me think about how much one how
easy it is to become the bad guy without realizing
Ellie doesn't realize that she is the villain in these
people's lives, and two, how much like more successful the
WLF Revenge vision was.
Speaker 4 (17:30):
It's like it's like showing.
Speaker 2 (17:34):
You know what you know, how like you know one
of the most ancient sayings, revenge is a dish best
served cold. And here's why it took five years, but
they got the right They did get the right guy.
Did they go too far? They tortured him. It's terrible
what happened. But they got the one guy.
Speaker 7 (17:49):
But they got the coolishment they didn't they got the
one I think, no extra deaths.
Speaker 4 (17:54):
They got the one guy, Ellie.
Speaker 6 (17:57):
This thing.
Speaker 4 (18:00):
Was safe. They didn't live.
Speaker 2 (18:03):
They let Ellie live, and look at what Ellie's done
and it's collateral damage.
Speaker 1 (18:08):
But as the show's like final.
Speaker 7 (18:11):
Theme of like community, my apologize one ad okay, it
also speaks to the show's final theme of community versus
the self.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
Right, they did it as a community.
Speaker 7 (18:23):
They all made a pack, they always together, they all
arrived where Ellie is like, I can't get my community
to back me, I'll just do it myself.
Speaker 5 (18:31):
I also think that is such a great point, Joelle,
because there's definitely an argument that if Ellie had not gone,
the community at some point would have returned.
Speaker 3 (18:45):
To that idea.
Speaker 5 (18:46):
I think it was clearly yeah, it was just not right.
Speaker 3 (18:51):
Now.
Speaker 5 (18:51):
Okay, so let's let's go to an ad break because
I think the next thing I want to talk about
is probably going to be a long, a long chance.
Speaker 3 (19:16):
However, Aaron and Joel.
Speaker 5 (19:18):
I would love to know your thoughts on Dina and
Ellie having the conversation that didn't happen in the game
where Ellie tells Dina what Joel did, because I found
that to be such a nerve racking scene, and I
think it does kind of change and shift where we
leave them at the end of the season.
Speaker 3 (19:38):
Aaron, how did that work for you?
Speaker 6 (19:40):
It felt in the beginning, I felt like Dina reacted
too harshly, and then the next morning she's like over
it and gives her the bracelet, and I was like,
that actually feels very real, Like someone you love tells
you something and you yes, you have two drastically different reactions,
and then in the end you're like, well, what to
talk about this more later? But like you shocked me
(20:01):
with this, but yeah, I know that there's other things
we're dealing with. So I liked that. I like that
this show I feel like gets a lot of these
interpersonal things correct or feeling very authentic and real, and
not just in a way that it was like, Okay,
I forgive you and then three episodes later, we should
go back to this or something like. It felt that
(20:22):
felt authentic so I.
Speaker 5 (20:23):
Really there is an urgency, you know.
Speaker 4 (20:25):
Yes.
Speaker 5 (20:25):
I also think that I have been quite you know,
loudly critical this season of how I feel like the
writing has let down Dina and Ellie often when they're
by themselves. But I think this is a season high
for like and not just a season, but also a series.
I think this episode is incredible, and there were multiple moments,
(20:49):
but this was kind of the first big one where
I was like, Okay, they locked in, they got it,
Like whoever? This That conversation felt so real and so painful,
and I felt like Bella was just firing on all cylinders.
Isabella is so incredible when it comes to kind of
micro emotions and just how horrified because the thing is
(21:11):
about this secret is that it affects every single person
on Earth. It affects your best friend, it affects your enemy.
And I just thought it was quite astounding. And I
was disappointed that we didn't get the Joel and Tommy conversation,
but I think this ended up being a good change.
Speaker 3 (21:30):
Joell, how did it work for you?
Speaker 7 (21:32):
It highlighted so many things which I thought was really interesting,
Like before this scene you have Jesse standing outside with
the gun, he's skeptical of whether it's Ellie. He decides
it is her, lets her in, but he's laid Dina
up there, like covered her with a blanket, like he's
playing protect her outside. And there's this really discussion he
(21:53):
has later with Ellie where he's like, yeah, I love her,
but it's not quite the same. He's like, I've been
in like real love before, and it's different. You just
see how like Dina and Ellie are in love, but
in a way that isn't sort of the sappy, like
overly performative. They're equals like in every like Dina's hurt
and she was like move over, like I'm gonna take
(22:14):
care of you.
Speaker 1 (22:15):
Like there is no looking there.
Speaker 7 (22:17):
They're just completely meeting each other at the same point,
and it's so beautiful. And so then when you have
this like very vulnerable Ellie, like you completely understand Dina's
like heartbreak, like we didn't have to be you knew,
you knew all of this, and you didn't let me
make a full decision, and that's frustrating.
Speaker 3 (22:33):
Great, but again.
Speaker 7 (22:35):
Even in the next day for like that to carry over,
you know, Jesse, the first thing he's like, you should
not be up. She's like, I got this, like to
say goodbye, I can barricade the door. She is pregnant.
They should have gone back, but like she feels like
a badass bitch, like she's really strong. She made she
did not have fully informed like ability to make a
(22:56):
complete decision, but she did want to be by l
as you would have. I think made the choice to
still calm and still protect her. I think that they're
that locked in, and because of that, it makes like again,
just everything going forward much more interesting. I wish we
could have had some smaller moments like this before I
point Rosie, but this, they nailed this.
Speaker 3 (23:18):
Yeah they did.
Speaker 5 (23:20):
It also kind of leads to another big conversation, which
is really like, what do you guys feel about the
way that kind of Jesse interacts with Ellie this episode
and with Dina and that kind of realistic conversations that
(23:41):
they're having, and kind of the notion of where this
could go, how Ellie views juty, how and loyalty and
how Jesse views it, and kind of the when Jesse
talks about the pressure of knowing everyone wants him to be,
you know, the next Maria. That stuff was like pretty
incredible and obviously it makes the end of the episode
(24:06):
like even more heartbreaking.
Speaker 3 (24:07):
Aaron I really liked it.
Speaker 4 (24:09):
I thought it was really important.
Speaker 2 (24:10):
I thought, I thought that there is there's something very
real in Ellie's kind of knee jerk reaction to Jesse
trying to be a sincerely good person by being like,
you're such a fucking nerd, Like that is really you know,
trying to be good and do good things is often
(24:32):
like the corniest fucking thing possible, like in real life.
Speaker 4 (24:37):
And so I thought that that felt.
Speaker 2 (24:40):
Very true for Ellie to be like, oh, so you're
good and I'm bad because like I'm on a revenge
mission and you just like want to run Jackson. Well,
but I thought that it was really important that Jesse
b not just like the voice of reason, but like
the voice the person who calls her out. Yeah, from
a from a place of actual responsibility. Here's a person
(25:04):
who is going above and beyond to be responsible not
just for your life but for everybody's life here, and
look at how reckless you're being in this moment. And
I thought that was And I thought that Ellie's anger
and frustration at him, the way she calls him out
(25:25):
for oh, yeah, like you're good and I'm bad and
I'm such a piece of shit. I thought that was
so real because it that's that hit home for her.
You can tell that it hit her that she knew
in that moment, Oh yeah, I'm this is really like
stupid when.
Speaker 5 (25:44):
I'm doing not that shup like not ever.
Speaker 2 (25:48):
Yeah, not that this isn't a worthy thing to do,
but the way it's happening right now is irresponsible.
Speaker 4 (25:56):
It's reckless.
Speaker 2 (25:57):
I've put many people's lives in danger for something that
is for me, is something that I want, not what's
best for everybody. And I thought that was really important.
I thought that was really important that he said that
to her and put that weight on her shoulders, said explicitly,
(26:18):
you're responsible for all of these lives, all of these
people that came out here to save you, that broke
the compact and the contract they had with their larger
community just to save you. Realize all the people that
broke their word to save you because they care about you.
And when he says listen, I know you'd storm the
(26:40):
gates of health to get me, what he's also saying
is realize your responsibility to these other people around you. Okay,
what's the hardest thing that you would do.
Speaker 4 (26:53):
For them? And think about doing that now.
Speaker 6 (26:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (26:58):
I also found that to be a very interesting moment.
It makes me want to cry, actually, because I do
think that again, this is some of the best writing
of this season because it's so real and it's Ellie
is Her defensiveness is so relatable, like if you've ever
been the one who caused the problem and then somebody
(27:18):
tells you, it's like that the worst fucking feeling in
the world, and we've all been there. And I also
love how much depth they gave to Jesse, how much
reality about like he tells her, he gave up real love.
He gave up that kind of head rush love that
you get where you're both falling for each other and
it's the best feeling in the world because he knew
(27:40):
that he couldn't abandon the people who raised him, you
know it. And I also think there's an interesting parallel
there to the loyalty that Ellie feels for Joel, because
that is why Joel was her community and I loved
that line. I'm also very interested to see where they
take this because one of the big criticisms of Last
(28:02):
of Us two is when Jesse is killed by Abby.
It is very much like she says, like Jesse and
then that's kind of it and there's not necessarily like
a lot of retribution, or it's not often spoken about,
and she just kind of gets on with it. But
I feel like after that conversation, there's no way that's
going to be the case here. And I think that
(28:23):
coming to terms with it and understanding. You know, a
lot of people have been asking what is how are
they going to end this show when we've already had
the porch flashback. Maybe it's not just about Joel. Maybe
Ellie's choice to forgive is about Jesse. Maybe it's about
somebody else.
Speaker 2 (28:41):
Yeah, I think another reason why this and Mel's death,
the Jesse scene and Mel's death are so important. Are
they lay the groundwork for Ellie taking responsibility for everything
that's happened and not putting it on Abby. Yes, Abby
killed Jesse. Jesse's only there because Ellie went there alone
(29:04):
drug Dina, the mother of Jesse's child, and made all
these people come after her, and then refused to go
back when they had the chance to go back. So
I think that it's gonna be very important for that turn,
if that's the way they decide to go, because you're
going to realize she actually doesn't blame Abby for that death.
Speaker 4 (29:21):
It's her fault she did that.
Speaker 2 (29:27):
I wanted to bring up recent some Oh, let's let's
take a quick break and then come back talk more
or less of us too, and we're back. So Craig
(29:52):
Mason recently came out and said he expects season three
to be longer than season two, saying there's no way
to complete this narrative in a third season, especially listen,
at which point I wanted to say, yeah, especially if
you only do seven episodes.
Speaker 4 (30:08):
Let's figure out how to do more.
Speaker 5 (30:09):
Yeah, but game timeline wise, I also think that's an
absolutely wild thing to say, unless there's a specific route
that they go, which is what I think they're going
to do.
Speaker 6 (30:18):
But yeah, that's just shocking someone who's not played the game.
How the percentage of the way through game two are
we right now? Roughly seventy?
Speaker 5 (30:27):
Yeah, you could finish it in season three, but I
think my guess is that they will. Season three will
basically just be Abby's journey. I think that's the only
way it.
Speaker 4 (30:39):
Makes Mostly I think it would mostly Abby's.
Speaker 5 (30:42):
Journey and then you get to this moment, and then
I guess season four is going to be however they
want to expand out this Abby and Ellie moment, but yeah,
hopefully longer. I would say eight episodes. I would have
loved an extra episode in this season for sure. But yeah,
very interesting to say that in the lead up to
(31:04):
the final episode when yeah, we are we are almost
done with the game.
Speaker 6 (31:09):
You know what extra episode we should have gotten? We
should have gotten a Jesse episode.
Speaker 5 (31:12):
Oh god, damn, you're so right. I would have fucking
I agree, especially like young Massino, like don't waste him.
Speaker 1 (31:19):
Yea honestly lucky so talent.
Speaker 4 (31:21):
I love Esse Jesse so much it may happen, we
may get that.
Speaker 1 (31:26):
I do. That's a.
Speaker 6 (31:29):
Two weeks with the painter.
Speaker 7 (31:31):
First of all, that would have been a great like
and the same way I think Happy Journey at the
top would have been really great to see like her,
like the story you knowd about her eight year old self, uh,
discovering her family and stuff. I do sort of wish
we had like a bunch of vignettes of like Jackson Hole,
like in the same way we have those kickoffs at
the in season one where it's like, oh, this is
(31:54):
someone predicting.
Speaker 1 (31:55):
That mushrooms could survive.
Speaker 7 (31:56):
Oh this is someone discovering like, oh, you gotta bomb
things because it's gonna get a hand so fast.
Speaker 5 (32:01):
Gray, that's a great point that feels so different to
anything we got in season two. I would have loved
a little bit, a little bit better an anthology sprinkle.
Speaker 1 (32:11):
Percent.
Speaker 7 (32:11):
I think those moments were great. And just to quickly
circle back to Jesse, I think the way they made
us fall in love with Jesse, like he was the
future and you've ruined it.
Speaker 5 (32:21):
He's the most thoughtful, kind, empathetic, generous. He's so generous
with his time with his friendship. Like the fact that
he didn't just disown Ellie when she essentially like started
immediately dating his girlfriend. Like he had such a fantastic
vision of what a community came.
Speaker 1 (32:40):
Back for me?
Speaker 7 (32:41):
Why such addic to him?
Speaker 2 (32:43):
He was still such a piece of shit. It felt
like such a piece of shit to him.
Speaker 6 (32:49):
Jesse was like Captain America and Ellie's like Wolverine. Like
every time you see them together in the comics, it's
like one of you really has your shit together.
Speaker 4 (32:56):
Otherwise it is just like a loose cannon.
Speaker 2 (32:58):
You know, Aaron, you made a good point that I
think is really important when uh, when Ellie tells Dina
about the tell the digital story about Salt Lake City
and all that, and then Dina's mad about it and shocked,
but then the next day it seems like it's okay.
There was something so true about the way relationships work
in that moment where you know, if you've ever gotten
(33:21):
on a big fight on vacation or like home for
the holidays, something you know, in a place where we
can't talk about this. Okay, listen, we can't talk about
this now, and it hasn't gone away, but we're going
to get through this moment right here, and you can
bet that we're going to come back and we're going
to talk about that.
Speaker 5 (33:40):
But now it needs to be like Incahoo's.
Speaker 2 (33:43):
We need to be now, we need to get through
Thanksgiving or whatever it is.
Speaker 4 (33:48):
You know, like that's so real.
Speaker 2 (33:52):
And all these Jesse moments had that ring of truth
about a person you really understood who Jesse was not
in just like things he said, but in the fact
that he showed up like he showed.
Speaker 4 (34:08):
He didn't have to show up.
Speaker 2 (34:10):
How many times has he saved Ellie's life, and she
could barely say thank you, like and barely recognize what's happening.
And that's why again, I just felt like it was
so important for her to call her, for him to
call her out, not Tommy, who is honestly one of.
Speaker 4 (34:27):
These forces who.
Speaker 2 (34:30):
Spoil is the long word, but like allowed Ellie to
get away with fucking murder.
Speaker 4 (34:40):
Yeah, to get to this point, and.
Speaker 2 (34:42):
It was so important that her contemporary who's on a
completely different track, say hey, look at what look at
what you're doing, Like, look what you're doing to all
of us. That was so important and really ran true.
Speaker 5 (34:56):
So, speaking of things that the showrunners have been.
Speaker 3 (34:59):
Said, let's talk a little bit about.
Speaker 5 (35:04):
This comment that I do think is quite a divisive one. Recently,
when asked if the Fireflies could have successfully created a
vaccine had Joel not killed them, Neil Druckman, creator of
the show and of you know, the game, our intent
(35:24):
was yes they could, He replied, This is so wild
to me.
Speaker 1 (35:28):
This is a bad joy.
Speaker 5 (35:29):
This is one of the absolute reasons that this game
has stayed in the public consciousness and conversation for so long,
because we do not know and because people want to
talk about it. People want to imagine what they would do,
how they would deal with it. Joel is you know,
to many people who played the game, he is in
(35:51):
the right, he is a hero. They are not as
horrified by what he did. And I think that Druckman
Amazon did a great job, as we've talked about quite
extensively in season one finale, of showcasing just how horrific
what Joel did was. But also in this season we
have seen the scars, we have seen the WLF. These
are people who will destroy other people, who will torture
(36:12):
other people, who will kill other people. So the world
that they live in is violent.
Speaker 1 (36:17):
You know.
Speaker 5 (36:18):
Violence is kind of at the heart of everything in
the show, except for what we see in Jackson Hole.
And I think that this is just absolutely a wild
thing to say, because it completely changes and ends a
lot of the conversations. Aaron, when we were in the
group chat talking about this, how is you're feeling As
someone who has not played the game.
Speaker 6 (36:39):
I prefer not knowing, And I am shocked to hear
you say that that is one of the reasons that
the game has remained so powerful, because that's the kind
of mental, philosophical question that most video games do not even.
Speaker 3 (36:57):
Attempt to tackle.
Speaker 6 (36:58):
And so the fact that this game did it is
amazing and the fact that we lost it is horrible.
Speaker 5 (37:07):
Joelle, tell me more, Joel, because you are like, you know,
all of us thereah creatives and Joelle is a fantastic
writer in case you didn't know, So from a writer's perspective,
could you talk a little bit about how that hit
for you.
Speaker 1 (37:20):
I think what.
Speaker 7 (37:22):
It just it zaps a lot of the energy out
of the game, Like it is a different vehicle, So
let's putting you in jewel shoes, so you not knowing
important out and also not being able to make a
different choice. Like it puts you in a very strange
place of like you're understanding his like confusion.
Speaker 1 (37:41):
You don't want to do what he's doing. He's still doing.
Speaker 7 (37:43):
It is like this very strange like tandem relationship of destruction.
And it really hinges on not knowing because if you know,
then you're just playing.
Speaker 1 (37:53):
The baddy, which can be fun.
Speaker 7 (37:54):
You know, game takes a lot of the energy out
for the show. I think it removes a lot of
the friction between Abby and Ellie, and I think, yeah,
that's it makes Abby, right, Yeah, yeah, because otherwise, what
you're left with the two women stepping into their like
(38:17):
adulthood and leadership positions and both really struggling with the
paths what's been done to them and with their future
and how they want to live it. And that's really
in they're totally even at this point, both so justified
and understandably. It's way different if it's like Joel was
a dick and now you're a dick and you're Abby, Like,
(38:37):
I guess you got a shooter girl, because that's the
rules of this universe, Like I don't know else. You
you need that confusion in the town. And I understand
as a creator like wanting to share like, oh no,
Joel's totally.
Speaker 5 (38:49):
So if you think he's right and obviously off to
the first season, I will say that was like as
as we've mentioned, there's been a lot of really wild
online this course about this show throughout its history, but
at the end of season one there was like a
lot of people who are super mad about the way
Joel was portrayed, who felt like he was so I
do also imagine that there is a eagerness on Druckman's
(39:14):
pot to kind of maybe make the morals and ethics
of the show and its character.
Speaker 7 (39:21):
Like the horrors of violence, and people keep coming away
with like he was right, imagine your head is a wall.
Speaker 4 (39:26):
Why don't people understand?
Speaker 3 (39:28):
I think that.
Speaker 2 (39:28):
I think from a process point of view, right you're
in the writer's room, I think it is it makes
complete sense to come to to have a direction in
that sense in terms of could could the fireflies actually
have done it? To discuss that and to but like
(39:49):
I do think that to your point, there's a reason
why we still talk about the Sopranos, and it's because
you just don't know you discussed that's you're dissecting it.
You're wondering which way does this break and does it
even matter to you?
Speaker 4 (40:06):
An answer?
Speaker 1 (40:07):
Right?
Speaker 4 (40:08):
And I think in that.
Speaker 2 (40:10):
Way, not knowing hues more closely to what life is like,
like it's just a road not taken, it's a it's
a and knowing makes it more explicitly a video games story.
We can play it again now knowing what it happened, you.
Speaker 4 (40:28):
Know what I mean?
Speaker 2 (40:29):
And so I think it does to me. It makes
it a little less cool, the story a little less
magical and resonant to actually know that they could have
done it.
Speaker 4 (40:41):
I always lean that way in my heart, but not
knowing too. It's sort of why we love talking about
this story.
Speaker 5 (40:47):
It's also kind of hilarious to come down on it
on one side like that, because, as we have pointed
out many times, both in the games and in the games,
there is more evidence with the notes and the recordings
that maybe the Five fars one to something. But in
the show in the game both it did not look
like they were going to do any good science in
that hospital, like Salt Lake City, did not look like
(41:08):
they were making anything that was going to come close.
Speaker 4 (41:13):
But like, I.
Speaker 5 (41:14):
Think that is another thing where it's just kind of
if it's this moral black and white choice and the
idea is yeah, they could have, then make me believe
it in the story as well.
Speaker 6 (41:25):
Have been good ever come from a creator after the
work is finished and published, like saying something additional, just
tell me, like who the main character's favorite band is
into it, to get on.
Speaker 7 (41:42):
The back and be like, no, that's not what I
was trying to do.
Speaker 1 (41:44):
Just hold on.
Speaker 3 (41:47):
Okay.
Speaker 5 (41:48):
Another big kind of news point that we should hit
on post the finale is drug Men revealed that they
were actually working on a different game other than intercollect
which we got the which I'm really excited about because
it has Tatty Gabrielle as he character. She's amazing. I
love that they saw how good she was as Noura
(42:08):
and wanted to give her a Biggert space, but everyone thought,
well that was it. So is part of the reason
that they're saying, well, we can't finish the story in
three seasons because the new game is going to be
last of US part three and it comes out alongside
season four, and that is kind of what they corporate synergy.
Speaker 4 (42:28):
You can see it coming right big. It makes absolutely
too much sense.
Speaker 7 (42:36):
I mean.
Speaker 5 (42:38):
Dropping these nuggets like in her bro you know.
Speaker 3 (42:41):
So I feel like, yes, that's what.
Speaker 4 (42:43):
Makes way too much sense, Jason. And by the way,
the last thing you.
Speaker 2 (42:47):
Want, as if you're drunk man, I think, is for
a season of television to come out that blows up
your game. They need to come out true in tandem
or basically at the same time, so.
Speaker 4 (43:04):
One does not necessarily spoil the other.
Speaker 3 (43:07):
That's Jason, what I think they would want as.
Speaker 5 (43:09):
Someone who's played the games like many times, and it
is what would you want to see in a Loss
of Us Part three, like where does it go for you?
Speaker 3 (43:19):
What do you want to look at? Who does it?
Speaker 5 (43:20):
Well?
Speaker 4 (43:21):
Listen, it's an open world racing game. You can play
as a cow well, I mean listen.
Speaker 2 (43:36):
Uh. Coming to this with you know, with storyteller brain,
having been storyteller pilled not to see this as an
elaborate kind of to see like a a WWE slash
(43:58):
superhero structure in this What do I mean? You have
Hero one and Hero two, they meet, they don't get along,
they hate each other, They fight, fight, fight, fight fight.
Speaker 4 (44:10):
Then what happens?
Speaker 5 (44:11):
Uh Uh?
Speaker 4 (44:15):
I don't know how it would happen.
Speaker 2 (44:18):
I don't know how it would happen, but it feels
like the only place Listen, you know how storytelling goes
character A can't do this thing, refuses to do this thing.
The arc must be that they do the thing right.
How do they get together? How do they cooperate? I
think that that's the only place this story can go.
Speaker 4 (44:39):
And the fact that.
Speaker 2 (44:39):
You can't imagine how it will get there means that
you know, Druckman and Amazing are really going to be
or Druckman, you know, primarily is really.
Speaker 4 (44:49):
Going to be in the lab making it make sense that.
Speaker 2 (44:52):
They would get to that place where they cooperate. I
think that's the only place that it can.
Speaker 5 (44:57):
Also as well, maybe some kind of quest to undo
what Joel did and find a cute I heard a rumor.
Speaker 7 (45:07):
That Tommy was going to be the main character of
the third game, and if that's the case, it makes
a lot of sense to me that they gave him
a kid in this season, which he does not have
in the game, right, and it sort of like helps
you fast tracked whatever is going on in game three.
Speaker 1 (45:24):
Potentially this is just a rumor, and I.
Speaker 7 (45:26):
Like the idea of, like if what we're continuing in
is like what's left behind in the legacy. You've got
so many children on the board right now. We've got
Dina's kid, We've got Tommy's kid. We don't really know
what's going on with Abby and her stuff, but I imagine
we get some form of like younger sibling or apprentice
(45:50):
or whatever from there, and maybe what we're seeing is
Tommy trying to help that generation not end up like
the ones.
Speaker 5 (45:57):
That would be a really delightful kind of What would
interest you most is someone who hasn't watched the game,
if you were going to kind of paint a season
four or season three that you would want that doesn't
go along with what you know of the game and
just is based on what you've seen in the show.
What do you think you'd be most interested in continuing
to explore?
Speaker 6 (46:16):
I mean, Jason said it. I think, yeah, the two
of them teaming up there there's some way that actually
someone else has an idea of how to make a
vaccine and the two of them go and now like,
let's fix it.
Speaker 3 (46:28):
Yeah, yeah, get.
Speaker 6 (46:30):
You know, the sins of our fathers and hear me right,
So that would be I think a slam dunk.
Speaker 5 (46:37):
That sounds honestly pretty fantastic. Okay, last questions before we
wrap it up.
Speaker 3 (46:44):
What do you need to.
Speaker 5 (46:45):
See in season three to make you care about Abby?
After we saw her just shoot Jesse in the face,
you know, Joel whatever. We've kind of talked about that,
but Joel and Aaron, what do you need to see
to care about Abby? And thighs with her situation?
Speaker 1 (47:02):
I already care about Abby.
Speaker 7 (47:04):
The show makes a really strong and decisive decision to
be like from go you understand like why what Abby's morning?
And because that rage has already been cemented twice already
with Joel and Ellie. It's very easy to understand, like
it's it's.
Speaker 1 (47:20):
Part of the disease.
Speaker 7 (47:21):
And in the same way twenty eight days later is
like the rage is the thing that turns you. I
really think like there's parallels here between like, oh god,
the community versus the individual. The mushrooms are a community,
they work really well together. Rage is dividing these humans,
is stopping them from being able to come together and
work together. And so I think for me, what I'm
(47:43):
hoping we get out of Abby is like.
Speaker 1 (47:47):
It's I mean, I almost don't. I love Belle Ramsey.
Speaker 7 (47:50):
They should be able to do whatever, but I almost
don't want to see them in the next season. I
think it would It would be challenging in all so,
I know it's really difficult in our current time to
figure out, like as a studio, like how do we
protect our performers and still tell a good story. There's
a lot of balance to be Like if you just
(48:11):
remove Bella Ramsay, is that like when Star Wars just
hate the characters people didn't like and like manage them.
Is Rosico just gone? Or is this part of the
certain And so it has to be tactically done. I
think Craig's got a deft enough pen to nail it.
But I would like to see is just it's just
purely Abby's journey, so that by the time we get
to that gun pull, wear fully understanding all three sixty
sides of it, and the final episode is the resolution
(48:34):
fallout of that moment.
Speaker 1 (48:36):
Yeah, I see what are you hearing?
Speaker 6 (48:37):
I mean I want some sweet moments of Abby and
her friends because we have only really seen her be
upset with them and short with them, and she is
so filled with rage and these people who have done
something horrible with her and they're the ones paying the price. Yeah,
for her, and they're the ones paying the price give
(48:58):
me a reason to This is the wrong phrase, but
to know it was worth it?
Speaker 4 (49:03):
Like is she what are these people?
Speaker 3 (49:07):
They love her?
Speaker 6 (49:07):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (49:08):
Yeah, what is it?
Speaker 5 (49:08):
So?
Speaker 6 (49:08):
I want to know more about that. I understand she
lost her father. I need I need more about why
so many people trusted her? And I mean, you know,
she's like tapped in to be the new face of
the w LF, Like why is everyone so in on her?
When to me, she's like, right now a really good
mirror for Ellie, who we know is not going to
(49:31):
be taking over Jackson Hole from what I can see, like,
how are these what's the difference with Avy? So that's
what I want to see.
Speaker 3 (49:38):
Okay.
Speaker 5 (49:38):
Also, just before we finished, Jason, you brought up the sopranos.
Let's talk about the ending, Jason, how did that work?
Speaker 4 (49:45):
Back?
Speaker 5 (49:47):
It's You're gonna this is like a crazy nineties style
ambiguous ending.
Speaker 3 (49:52):
But how are people going to I know that you.
Speaker 5 (49:55):
Guys, there's going to be people who are so mad
about this.
Speaker 2 (49:58):
Reactions which is the stame react Basically, I have to
any effective Clive, which is one like fuck you.
Speaker 4 (50:09):
And that's why that's why you're not you don't.
Speaker 2 (50:13):
Have the balls to do it. I know you don't,
and there's the and then there's the maybe you do.
So I thought it was very effective and I also
like listen and I think a lot of people are
gonna have that reaction like fuck you?
Speaker 4 (50:27):
Are you serious? Fuck you? Craig? What about you? Everybody's reaction?
What are your reactions?
Speaker 1 (50:35):
I mean, just wow?
Speaker 7 (50:36):
Really, because I think, especially because what you're really stuck
in is not even that gunshot.
Speaker 1 (50:42):
I still thinking about Jesse, like I can't.
Speaker 4 (50:44):
Like you don't even have time, you don't have time
to process it.
Speaker 7 (50:47):
No, it's so chaotic and it's so and like, you know,
for Tommy to be like run, You're like, there's no
running from this, Tommy to please get grow up. You're
worried about like where's Dina. We don't even see her.
Hopefully she's hiding.
Speaker 1 (51:01):
But for how long is that work?
Speaker 7 (51:02):
But really you're just like we just lost everything, Like
really it's crazy because we didn't get a lot of
time with Jesse, but you're just like it's all gone.
Speaker 5 (51:10):
It was such an emmy performance.
Speaker 7 (51:13):
He truly was so solid, and I think like that
to me makes the freezing of time feel right, Like
it's it's so chaotic and it's so emotionally overwrought and
she's like, and just stay suspended here, We'll be right back.
I was like, I love this, this really Workstreme, what
about you?
Speaker 5 (51:27):
Hear?
Speaker 6 (51:28):
I mean, it was a huge shock and I loved it,
And now looking back at it, I am glad that
they didn't cut to black and then do Ellie's recording
of take on Me by Aha. I would have been yeah.
Speaker 5 (51:43):
But you know what I think you I agree with
all of you. And I also think, like, now we've
talked about it, if they really do not have Bella
in season three and that's how they end, that's gonna
be some brave fucking TV.
Speaker 3 (51:59):
If you don't get solution.
Speaker 5 (52:00):
Told the finale of season three to know the outcome,
and that is there's the ninety percent of you're not
fucking brave enough, but there's the ten percent of, oh
what if you are?
Speaker 7 (52:11):
It's not taking notes from folks, So it feels like
whatever we have is like exactly his vision is Neils
and so yeah, I'm excited to see what happens.
Speaker 2 (52:22):
Well, that's it for our the last of US two
season finale round table chow. Thank you so much for
joining us. Coming up in the next few episodes of
Extra Vision, we're continuing to look at summer movies with
the history of the stunts in the Mission Impossible franchise.
The next week, we have a sendoff for the beloved
Nintendo Switch and a look back at the John Wick
(52:44):
franchise as we get ready for an indie armist in
Ballerina that tip.
Speaker 4 (52:49):
This episode, X ray Vision is hosted by Jason Concepcion.
Speaker 5 (52:57):
I'm Rosie Knight.
Speaker 4 (52:58):
And is a production of iheartpot.
Speaker 5 (53:00):
Our executive producers are Joel Monique and Aaron Kaufman.
Speaker 4 (53:04):
Our supervising producer is Abu Zafar.
Speaker 5 (53:06):
Our producers are Common, Laurent Dean Jonathan and Bay Wag.
Speaker 2 (53:11):
A theme song is by Brian Vasquez, with alternate theme
songs by Aaron Kauffman.
Speaker 5 (53:15):
Special thanks to Soul Rubin, Chris Lord, Kenny Goodman and
Heidi Our discord moderator
Worry.
Speaker 2 (00:00):
Today's episode will contain spoilers for the Last of US
season two and of course season one, and maybe some
of the game too.
Speaker 3 (00:08):
Oh, I think the game is gonna come up.
Speaker 4 (00:24):
Helloa.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
It is Jason Gncepcion and on Mesday Night and welcome
back to x Ravasion of the Podcast, where we dive
deep idiot favorite shows, movies, comics of pop culture company
from my our podcast, We're We're Very three episodes a
week every Tuesday, Thursday and Friday, plus Dubs News on
Tatoes News.
Speaker 5 (00:42):
You can only whisper. It's like a lore them me.
But in today's episode, Wow, we're convening the jackson Hole
Council or I guess now maybe it's like the Satellite
Seactle Council for the Last of US season two round
table off the that pretty shocking finale, which I am
(01:04):
so excited to see how people felt about it.
Speaker 4 (01:08):
I can't wait to see.
Speaker 5 (01:10):
Dude, this has gonna be crazy divisive, like not necessarily
in the council, I don't know, but in the bandom,
like I think people are gonna.
Speaker 4 (01:19):
Be in the fandom.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
Well, listen, that's not considering, that's not especial. Okay, let's
get into it, all right, folks, please welcome super producers
Joeell and Aaron to the show.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
Fuel Rage Fire.
Speaker 5 (01:40):
I gotta say, any fucking person who questioned whether Bella
Ramsey had the juice, they better be swallowing those words
right now, because this episode is a powerhouse.
Speaker 3 (01:54):
Aaron, how you doing?
Speaker 6 (01:56):
I mean I never questioned whether or not Bella had
the juice. I questioned whether or not Bella was use
it like h during in a physical pain, and then
we see.
Speaker 3 (02:05):
All the bruises on her back.
Speaker 4 (02:06):
All right, yeah, she's getting it. I get it.
Speaker 6 (02:08):
She's this is real stunts. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (02:10):
No, okay, So.
Speaker 2 (02:11):
Let's just quick thirty thousand foot view. What did we
think of the season before we get to the finale, Joelle,
Let's start with you.
Speaker 7 (02:21):
Well, I was talking to Aaron before we hopped on Mike,
and I was fresh. I was like, damn you, Craig,
because the whole season I was like, wow, this is
paced so awkwardly, like I don't understand, Like we have
this great character Isaac Comini, barely spend any time with
him at all, like or bouncing back and forth.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
We got flashbacks like.
Speaker 4 (02:41):
Handra Hen does handra Han have a line? Does Alma
you have a line? I mean we just kind of
see her through a scene.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
Yeah, maybe, like and so it was.
Speaker 7 (02:50):
It was irritating to me because I never felt like
I was enveloped in the story. The pacing was just
so jarring. But then this finale was so damn good.
I was like, it's so good, and it brought me
back to this. He did an interview with Tony Gilroy
on his podcast script Writing, script Notes, script Notes Notes,
and he was saying like, I don't know when I'll
(03:12):
go back to being able to make a movie like
I've signed on for this. It's such a long journey.
I was like, ah, buddy, you made a movie. You
made a movie instead of a TV show. And I'm
not even mad about it.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
It's good.
Speaker 7 (03:23):
I just sort of wish we had been able to
binge it. I think a lot of this fan bs
like where.
Speaker 1 (03:29):
There were so many people who genuinely enjoyed the game.
Speaker 7 (03:31):
It had genuine critiques that I think we're valid that
I think might have enjoyed the series a great deal
more if they had been able to just binge it
and get the whole idea in one not one sitting
like one or two?
Speaker 4 (03:43):
Are we and or pilled? Have we been like and
or season two pilled? Is that the.
Speaker 3 (03:47):
Issue have been hand or pilled?
Speaker 5 (03:49):
I also think that for a show with only seven episodes,
and I understand, look, we did weekly coverage of this show,
and we were absolutely not the only podcast or outlet
do it. Like I get HBO gets the conversation going,
but I think that in this specific case, if they
had done a secret binge drop, this would have been
perceived as such a stronger season because it.
Speaker 3 (04:12):
Is very uneven.
Speaker 5 (04:13):
But I do think that the finale ties things together
and leaves us in a space where I actually want
to know what's going to happen. Yeah, it makes the
journey worth it. Aaron, how did the season sit for you?
Speaker 4 (04:25):
I loved it. I loved it.
Speaker 6 (04:26):
I mean I think in our last roundtable after episode five,
we briefly talked about how season one felt more focused
on individual storylines and season two has been all about
these groups and these armies or these organizations or cities
and the people within it. And I really felt like
the season finale did such a good job of showing
(04:47):
that all of these communities are at risk when one
individual acts out and is brash and is dangerous and
goes against what the community maybe should do and then
suddenly like, you know, whether it be Abby going and
doing more than the rest of the WLF team wanted
when they capture Joel and staying longer and then that
(05:09):
puts all of them at risk and then they're dying,
or whether it's Ellie like doing things that you know,
she the town council voted against. Like, it's really interesting
to see this finale bring it all back together and say,
this show is still about individual choices and it's sometimes
a really horrible result for the rest of the people involved.
Speaker 5 (05:29):
Let's talk a little bit more about kind of more
zoomed in, specifically about the finale. Joel, what was it
that worked for you and kind of what was your
journey as you went from that opening all the way
to that finale, which at the final moments I think
are going to really have people talking.
Speaker 7 (05:48):
I think so too, Okay, I think two things worked
for me. One, the thesis of season one seemed to
be like what will you do for love?
Speaker 1 (05:56):
Like what's the line?
Speaker 7 (05:57):
Right?
Speaker 5 (05:58):
Right?
Speaker 7 (05:59):
In season two, it's all culminated and like what happens
to the children, and it's so hammered home beautifully in
this final episode where constantly you know, Ellie's sort of
predicants whole idea. She's very concerned of like I am
a good person and my best friend doesn't think so,
like nobody sees me as being good, and she's like,
I had to save that kid. I'm a good person,
Like Joel was a good person.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
He saved me.
Speaker 7 (06:20):
Then later she's betrayed by a child on the banks.
You know, if she'd been tactically thinking that was a
very cute little girl, but you might have taken her
out because you know, survival, it's wild out here.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
And then of course with the tragedy.
Speaker 7 (06:34):
At the end, with a pregnant woman understanding she's dying
and be like, please just save my kid. What happens
to the kids, and so to like so strongly repeat
that theme and really like narrow laser focus it in
on Ellie. Part two of what really works is Ellie's
rage is now understandable. I still wish we had a
(06:55):
little peeps of it, even if it was in her
silent moments, if she wasn't expressing it with her friends
or whatever I do, which we had a little bit
more throughout the season, but for it when the confrontation,
when she's like, hey, that's I found it.
Speaker 1 (07:10):
That's the wheel on the wheel.
Speaker 7 (07:11):
Okay, I'm gonna go like like there's a storm and
Tommy's out there, And it was crazy to be like
Tommy's out there and she's like, yeah, but Tommy would
want me to go get Joel's killer, and it's like, well,
Tommy's alive.
Speaker 4 (07:24):
Tommy is alive, right, yeah, you here. You could go
get it and.
Speaker 7 (07:29):
Still go get revenge for Joel, but you can't even
differentiate like time and space. You're just so laser focused,
and like seeing those decisions play out again, and everything
before and everything after so much more like palpable and intense,
and I think all of that just calmlated so beautifully together.
I really enjoyed, like watching those sequences. It was heartbreaking.
Speaker 3 (07:52):
Yeah, I was.
Speaker 5 (07:53):
Shocked actually by how much I enjoyed it because I
really struggled with uh Nora's death in the season. I
felt like it didn't feel authentic to Ellie. I felt
like it was very just like a light switch that
I didn't really understand why it was turned on, And
I didn't think that it was particularly well done, and
(08:13):
I just it made me dislike Ellie, but not in
a way that felt intentional. But the way that they
dealt with melan Owen and the changes they made, I
found it to be incredibly affecting.
Speaker 4 (08:27):
Yeah, I did too. I thought that. I mean that
the scene where.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
Ellie is trying to figure out how she can follow
these instructions to save the child are so harrowing and
hard to watch. And I think also, you know, if
there's one thing this this season has done right, I
think it's drilling down on that idea that while Ellie
(08:57):
is doing something that I think we all all that
resonates with us in a very human and emotional way,
you know, revenge justice. You feel like something totally unjustice
happened and you want to make it right and you
have it in your power to make it right, and
at the same time examining how that can turn you
(09:23):
into like an angel of death.
Speaker 4 (09:26):
You know, even.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
It's like, yeah, you can whisper to her as she's dying, hand,
I didn't mean it.
Speaker 4 (09:37):
You know, like, what what does that really mean? Yeah?
What does that really mean?
Speaker 2 (09:42):
To not have meant to do that? And you would
ask the same of of Joel. And it made me
think of I watch I watched this show on the
beleaguered Showtime network, Couple Therapy.
Speaker 5 (10:01):
A couple of Therapy, extra vision crossover.
Speaker 3 (10:04):
It could happen. He love that.
Speaker 2 (10:06):
But she she was talking to this couple who were
having you know, there's these recriminations going back and forth,
like you did this, okay, yeah, but like I did
that because you did this first. And she was like, actually, wait,
hold on, I want to stop you because it's not
actually important who did what first. Both partners were like, well,
(10:26):
I think it is important because it's and she's like, yes,
in a legal sense, like if we were in a courtroom,
that's important, right, But in terms of stopping this of
moving on from this cycle, it's not important. And that
scene really reminded me of that because I think it's
(10:49):
you know, we've talked a lot about the changes that
they've made visa v Elie, and we've talked a lot
about some of the more unhinged criticisms of Eli.
Speaker 4 (11:00):
They nerved her.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
She's not like this crazy John wa and and I
think those changes are positive. And I think they're positive
because of this scene here this is the scene where
whatever they end up doing, if they end up following
the kind of blueprint of the game with the in
(11:22):
the final confrontation between Ellie and Abbey, it's because of this.
Speaker 4 (11:27):
Scene that it will make sense.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
And I just thought it was tremendously impactful and important
and kind of what the entire show is about is
like either choose life or choose death, but you can't
choose them both.
Speaker 6 (11:45):
You really can't choose them both. Aaron, Yeah, this was
a heartbreaking scene. I mean, mel dying and and just
whispering you're doing You're doing great, You're doing great, like
that was heartbreaking. And also I think, really, you know
season one, the finale of season one opens with Ellie
(12:07):
being born like her mom is attacked by infected and
then she is born as her mother is dying and
is saved by Marlene. But that was like an infected attack,
and then here we have another living, non infected human
killing this mother and a much worse outcome where the
baby does not make it. And it was I think
(12:29):
just like the change in these two scenes in the finale,
like like Joelle's talking about with kids with the offspring,
and like the future generations not working out this time
feels so depressing and dark.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
And I would argue the worst thing that Ellie did
was not immediately turn around when she found out that
Dina is pregnant.
Speaker 4 (12:51):
Like yes, what are you talking about?
Speaker 5 (12:52):
Like and go back even if you know like Dina did,
she said, Oh, I don't think you know. I want
revenge too. I don't give a shit. Get on the
fucking horse. We're going home, Like that's h And I
really loved what they did with Jesse and Ellie in
this episode. I think those conversations so.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
He puts the responsibility squarely on her, Hey what about
my life? What about my relationship with my child too?
And I'm here bailing you out of this.
Speaker 3 (13:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (13:29):
And I also thought there was something so interesting.
Speaker 3 (13:32):
You know, we have been.
Speaker 5 (13:33):
Quite critical of the way to WLF and the Scars
have kind of been left as almost these kind of
archetypal antagonists rather than any kind of given much depth.
But I thought what was kind of unbelievable in this
episode was just realizing how absolutely nihilistic and unnecessary the
(13:57):
whole war is and how clear it's like, actually this
is fucking stupid, Like you guys could be living in
this space and there is no need for you to
be chopping out each other's guts or sniping people, Like
why the fuck does it matter, Like that's what you're
choosing to do.
Speaker 7 (14:13):
But then also how ingrained it is, like yeah, no,
cut her guts, like you're like, oh yeah, it's it's
so ingrained in how they operate they can't even think
beyond like like even Abby's rushing in at the end,
Like you know, in our first interaction with Abby, the
show makes a change from the games. We understand to
(14:36):
some extent her decision making, but we're so Unjual's side
of things where we're and and it's awful to watch
Ellie have to process this in real time.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
And the end though, you're kind of like, I get
why you gotta shoot Ellie girl?
Speaker 4 (14:50):
Yeah, yeah, she kills.
Speaker 7 (14:51):
Your pregnant bestie, Like she's out here wreaking havoc.
Speaker 4 (14:54):
You let her go clearly.
Speaker 5 (14:56):
Very close to Abby, whether it's the p A ship
or whatever. I also think something that was really well
done is I like the changes they made to Owen
and Mel's story from the game, like weren't well if
in the game, Owen kind of like runs away from
the WLF after he accidentally kills another member, and Mel
(15:22):
does die, but there is not the It is not
in the situation where Ellie is like purposefully not gonna
kill her. It's like she's gonna kill her. Then she
finds out she's pregnant and she's upset afterwards, and that
is one of the most heart wrenching parts of part two.
But I think the way that they did at this time,
where Ellie clearly did not want to kill either of them,
(15:43):
but again that cycle of violence Owen has to get
the gun. Owen doesn't believe that Ellie is going to
allow them to live, so he tries to kill her,
and that leads to both of them dying and that
kind of horrific shock, And this is I'm not gonna lie.
This is also a trophy love from films and where
you think somebody has survived and then you realize that
(16:03):
actually they have also been shot. You know.
Speaker 3 (16:06):
I thought that was so affecting.
Speaker 5 (16:08):
And I also think the actress that plays Mel is
just unbelievable. The small amount of time that she has
on screen and the absolute impact that she makes is
just I want to see her in a million other things.
I think she's absolutely fantastic. And that moment, like you said, Aaron,
(16:30):
like when she's telling Ellie like her nursing, her caretaker nature,
she just can't stop it. So she's kind of saying
to Ellie like you're doing great, like you you know,
like she's just so kind to Ariella Bearer, and she
is just so fantastic. And I think I was already
(16:53):
a fan of hers from Stargirl, but I just was
really moved by those scenes, and I felt like they
gave us a lot more to go on.
Speaker 7 (17:01):
It was like discovering the core of who she was
exactly right, like if if, if everything else is going
away and this is just her lizard brain left it.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
This was just a nice woman.
Speaker 4 (17:12):
Yeah, it's really.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
It also made me think about how much one how
easy it is to become the bad guy without realizing
Ellie doesn't realize that she is the villain in these
people's lives, and two, how much like more successful the
WLF Revenge vision was.
Speaker 4 (17:30):
It's like it's like showing.
Speaker 2 (17:34):
You know what you know, how like you know one
of the most ancient sayings, revenge is a dish best
served cold. And here's why it took five years, but
they got the right They did get the right guy.
Did they go too far? They tortured him. It's terrible
what happened. But they got the one guy.
Speaker 7 (17:49):
But they got the coolishment they didn't they got the
one I think, no extra deaths.
Speaker 4 (17:54):
They got the one guy, Ellie.
Speaker 6 (17:57):
This thing.
Speaker 4 (18:00):
Was safe. They didn't live.
Speaker 2 (18:03):
They let Ellie live, and look at what Ellie's done
and it's collateral damage.
Speaker 1 (18:08):
But as the show's like final.
Speaker 7 (18:11):
Theme of like community, my apologize one ad okay, it
also speaks to the show's final theme of community versus
the self.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
Right, they did it as a community.
Speaker 7 (18:23):
They all made a pack, they always together, they all
arrived where Ellie is like, I can't get my community
to back me, I'll just do it myself.
Speaker 5 (18:31):
I also think that is such a great point, Joelle,
because there's definitely an argument that if Ellie had not gone,
the community at some point would have returned.
Speaker 3 (18:45):
To that idea.
Speaker 5 (18:46):
I think it was clearly yeah, it was just not right.
Speaker 3 (18:51):
Now.
Speaker 5 (18:51):
Okay, so let's let's go to an ad break because
I think the next thing I want to talk about
is probably going to be a long, a long chance.
Speaker 3 (19:16):
However, Aaron and Joel.
Speaker 5 (19:18):
I would love to know your thoughts on Dina and
Ellie having the conversation that didn't happen in the game
where Ellie tells Dina what Joel did, because I found
that to be such a nerve racking scene, and I
think it does kind of change and shift where we
leave them at the end of the season.
Speaker 3 (19:38):
Aaron, how did that work for you?
Speaker 6 (19:40):
It felt in the beginning, I felt like Dina reacted
too harshly, and then the next morning she's like over
it and gives her the bracelet, and I was like,
that actually feels very real, Like someone you love tells
you something and you yes, you have two drastically different reactions,
and then in the end you're like, well, what to
talk about this more later? But like you shocked me
(20:01):
with this, but yeah, I know that there's other things
we're dealing with. So I liked that. I like that
this show I feel like gets a lot of these
interpersonal things correct or feeling very authentic and real, and
not just in a way that it was like, Okay,
I forgive you and then three episodes later, we should
go back to this or something like. It felt that
(20:22):
felt authentic so I.
Speaker 5 (20:23):
Really there is an urgency, you know.
Speaker 4 (20:25):
Yes.
Speaker 5 (20:25):
I also think that I have been quite you know,
loudly critical this season of how I feel like the
writing has let down Dina and Ellie often when they're
by themselves. But I think this is a season high
for like and not just a season, but also a series.
I think this episode is incredible, and there were multiple moments,
(20:49):
but this was kind of the first big one where
I was like, Okay, they locked in, they got it,
Like whoever? This That conversation felt so real and so painful,
and I felt like Bella was just firing on all cylinders.
Isabella is so incredible when it comes to kind of
micro emotions and just how horrified because the thing is
(21:11):
about this secret is that it affects every single person
on Earth. It affects your best friend, it affects your enemy.
And I just thought it was quite astounding. And I
was disappointed that we didn't get the Joel and Tommy conversation,
but I think this ended up being a good change.
Speaker 3 (21:30):
Joell, how did it work for you?
Speaker 7 (21:32):
It highlighted so many things which I thought was really interesting,
Like before this scene you have Jesse standing outside with
the gun, he's skeptical of whether it's Ellie. He decides
it is her, lets her in, but he's laid Dina
up there, like covered her with a blanket, like he's
playing protect her outside. And there's this really discussion he
(21:53):
has later with Ellie where he's like, yeah, I love her,
but it's not quite the same. He's like, I've been
in like real love before, and it's different. You just
see how like Dina and Ellie are in love, but
in a way that isn't sort of the sappy, like
overly performative. They're equals like in every like Dina's hurt
and she was like move over, like I'm gonna take
(22:14):
care of you.
Speaker 1 (22:15):
Like there is no looking there.
Speaker 7 (22:17):
They're just completely meeting each other at the same point,
and it's so beautiful. And so then when you have
this like very vulnerable Ellie, like you completely understand Dina's
like heartbreak, like we didn't have to be you knew,
you knew all of this, and you didn't let me
make a full decision, and that's frustrating.
Speaker 3 (22:33):
Great, but again.
Speaker 7 (22:35):
Even in the next day for like that to carry over,
you know, Jesse, the first thing he's like, you should
not be up. She's like, I got this, like to
say goodbye, I can barricade the door. She is pregnant.
They should have gone back, but like she feels like
a badass bitch, like she's really strong. She made she
did not have fully informed like ability to make a
(22:56):
complete decision, but she did want to be by l
as you would have. I think made the choice to
still calm and still protect her. I think that they're
that locked in, and because of that, it makes like again,
just everything going forward much more interesting. I wish we
could have had some smaller moments like this before I
point Rosie, but this, they nailed this.
Speaker 3 (23:18):
Yeah they did.
Speaker 5 (23:20):
It also kind of leads to another big conversation, which
is really like, what do you guys feel about the
way that kind of Jesse interacts with Ellie this episode
and with Dina and that kind of realistic conversations that
(23:41):
they're having, and kind of the notion of where this
could go, how Ellie views juty, how and loyalty and
how Jesse views it, and kind of the when Jesse
talks about the pressure of knowing everyone wants him to be,
you know, the next Maria. That stuff was like pretty
incredible and obviously it makes the end of the episode
(24:06):
like even more heartbreaking.
Speaker 3 (24:07):
Aaron I really liked it.
Speaker 4 (24:09):
I thought it was really important.
Speaker 2 (24:10):
I thought, I thought that there is there's something very
real in Ellie's kind of knee jerk reaction to Jesse
trying to be a sincerely good person by being like,
you're such a fucking nerd, Like that is really you know,
trying to be good and do good things is often
(24:32):
like the corniest fucking thing possible, like in real life.
Speaker 4 (24:37):
And so I thought that that felt.
Speaker 2 (24:40):
Very true for Ellie to be like, oh, so you're
good and I'm bad because like I'm on a revenge
mission and you just like want to run Jackson. Well,
but I thought that it was really important that Jesse
b not just like the voice of reason, but like
the voice the person who calls her out. Yeah, from
a from a place of actual responsibility. Here's a person
(25:04):
who is going above and beyond to be responsible not
just for your life but for everybody's life here, and
look at how reckless you're being in this moment. And
I thought that was And I thought that Ellie's anger
and frustration at him, the way she calls him out
(25:25):
for oh, yeah, like you're good and I'm bad and
I'm such a piece of shit. I thought that was
so real because it that's that hit home for her.
You can tell that it hit her that she knew
in that moment, Oh yeah, I'm this is really like
stupid when.
Speaker 5 (25:44):
I'm doing not that shup like not ever.
Speaker 2 (25:48):
Yeah, not that this isn't a worthy thing to do,
but the way it's happening right now is irresponsible.
Speaker 4 (25:56):
It's reckless.
Speaker 2 (25:57):
I've put many people's lives in danger for something that
is for me, is something that I want, not what's
best for everybody. And I thought that was really important.
I thought that was really important that he said that
to her and put that weight on her shoulders, said explicitly,
(26:18):
you're responsible for all of these lives, all of these
people that came out here to save you, that broke
the compact and the contract they had with their larger
community just to save you. Realize all the people that
broke their word to save you because they care about you.
And when he says listen, I know you'd storm the
(26:40):
gates of health to get me, what he's also saying
is realize your responsibility to these other people around you. Okay,
what's the hardest thing that you would do.
Speaker 4 (26:53):
For them? And think about doing that now.
Speaker 6 (26:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (26:58):
I also found that to be a very interesting moment.
It makes me want to cry, actually, because I do
think that again, this is some of the best writing
of this season because it's so real and it's Ellie
is Her defensiveness is so relatable, like if you've ever
been the one who caused the problem and then somebody
(27:18):
tells you, it's like that the worst fucking feeling in
the world, and we've all been there. And I also
love how much depth they gave to Jesse, how much
reality about like he tells her, he gave up real love.
He gave up that kind of head rush love that
you get where you're both falling for each other and
it's the best feeling in the world because he knew
(27:40):
that he couldn't abandon the people who raised him, you
know it. And I also think there's an interesting parallel
there to the loyalty that Ellie feels for Joel, because
that is why Joel was her community and I loved
that line. I'm also very interested to see where they
take this because one of the big criticisms of Last
(28:02):
of Us two is when Jesse is killed by Abby.
It is very much like she says, like Jesse and
then that's kind of it and there's not necessarily like
a lot of retribution, or it's not often spoken about,
and she just kind of gets on with it. But
I feel like after that conversation, there's no way that's
going to be the case here. And I think that
(28:23):
coming to terms with it and understanding. You know, a
lot of people have been asking what is how are
they going to end this show when we've already had
the porch flashback. Maybe it's not just about Joel. Maybe
Ellie's choice to forgive is about Jesse. Maybe it's about
somebody else.
Speaker 2 (28:41):
Yeah, I think another reason why this and Mel's death,
the Jesse scene and Mel's death are so important. Are
they lay the groundwork for Ellie taking responsibility for everything
that's happened and not putting it on Abby. Yes, Abby
killed Jesse. Jesse's only there because Ellie went there alone
(29:04):
drug Dina, the mother of Jesse's child, and made all
these people come after her, and then refused to go
back when they had the chance to go back. So
I think that it's gonna be very important for that turn,
if that's the way they decide to go, because you're
going to realize she actually doesn't blame Abby for that death.
Speaker 4 (29:21):
It's her fault she did that.
Speaker 2 (29:27):
I wanted to bring up recent some Oh, let's let's
take a quick break and then come back talk more
or less of us too, and we're back. So Craig
(29:52):
Mason recently came out and said he expects season three
to be longer than season two, saying there's no way
to complete this narrative in a third season, especially listen,
at which point I wanted to say, yeah, especially if
you only do seven episodes.
Speaker 4 (30:08):
Let's figure out how to do more.
Speaker 5 (30:09):
Yeah, but game timeline wise, I also think that's an
absolutely wild thing to say, unless there's a specific route
that they go, which is what I think they're going
to do.
Speaker 6 (30:18):
But yeah, that's just shocking someone who's not played the game.
How the percentage of the way through game two are
we right now? Roughly seventy?
Speaker 5 (30:27):
Yeah, you could finish it in season three, but I
think my guess is that they will. Season three will
basically just be Abby's journey. I think that's the only
way it.
Speaker 4 (30:39):
Makes Mostly I think it would mostly Abby's.
Speaker 5 (30:42):
Journey and then you get to this moment, and then
I guess season four is going to be however they
want to expand out this Abby and Ellie moment, but yeah,
hopefully longer. I would say eight episodes. I would have
loved an extra episode in this season for sure. But yeah,
very interesting to say that in the lead up to
(31:04):
the final episode when yeah, we are we are almost
done with the game.
Speaker 6 (31:09):
You know what extra episode we should have gotten? We
should have gotten a Jesse episode.
Speaker 5 (31:12):
Oh god, damn, you're so right. I would have fucking
I agree, especially like young Massino, like don't waste him.
Speaker 1 (31:19):
Yea honestly lucky so talent.
Speaker 4 (31:21):
I love Esse Jesse so much it may happen, we
may get that.
Speaker 1 (31:26):
I do. That's a.
Speaker 6 (31:29):
Two weeks with the painter.
Speaker 7 (31:31):
First of all, that would have been a great like
and the same way I think Happy Journey at the
top would have been really great to see like her,
like the story you knowd about her eight year old self, uh,
discovering her family and stuff. I do sort of wish
we had like a bunch of vignettes of like Jackson Hole,
like in the same way we have those kickoffs at
the in season one where it's like, oh, this is
(31:54):
someone predicting.
Speaker 1 (31:55):
That mushrooms could survive.
Speaker 7 (31:56):
Oh this is someone discovering like, oh, you gotta bomb
things because it's gonna get a hand so fast.
Speaker 5 (32:01):
Gray, that's a great point that feels so different to
anything we got in season two. I would have loved
a little bit, a little bit better an anthology sprinkle.
Speaker 1 (32:11):
Percent.
Speaker 7 (32:11):
I think those moments were great. And just to quickly
circle back to Jesse, I think the way they made
us fall in love with Jesse, like he was the
future and you've ruined it.
Speaker 5 (32:21):
He's the most thoughtful, kind, empathetic, generous. He's so generous
with his time with his friendship. Like the fact that
he didn't just disown Ellie when she essentially like started
immediately dating his girlfriend. Like he had such a fantastic
vision of what a community came.
Speaker 1 (32:40):
Back for me?
Speaker 7 (32:41):
Why such addic to him?
Speaker 2 (32:43):
He was still such a piece of shit. It felt
like such a piece of shit to him.
Speaker 6 (32:49):
Jesse was like Captain America and Ellie's like Wolverine. Like
every time you see them together in the comics, it's
like one of you really has your shit together.
Speaker 4 (32:56):
Otherwise it is just like a loose cannon.
Speaker 2 (32:58):
You know, Aaron, you made a good point that I
think is really important when uh, when Ellie tells Dina
about the tell the digital story about Salt Lake City
and all that, and then Dina's mad about it and shocked,
but then the next day it seems like it's okay.
There was something so true about the way relationships work
in that moment where you know, if you've ever gotten
(33:21):
on a big fight on vacation or like home for
the holidays, something you know, in a place where we
can't talk about this. Okay, listen, we can't talk about
this now, and it hasn't gone away, but we're going
to get through this moment right here, and you can
bet that we're going to come back and we're going
to talk about that.
Speaker 5 (33:40):
But now it needs to be like Incahoo's.
Speaker 2 (33:43):
We need to be now, we need to get through
Thanksgiving or whatever it is.
Speaker 4 (33:48):
You know, like that's so real.
Speaker 2 (33:52):
And all these Jesse moments had that ring of truth
about a person you really understood who Jesse was not
in just like things he said, but in the fact
that he showed up like he showed.
Speaker 4 (34:08):
He didn't have to show up.
Speaker 2 (34:10):
How many times has he saved Ellie's life, and she
could barely say thank you, like and barely recognize what's happening.
And that's why again, I just felt like it was
so important for her to call her, for him to
call her out, not Tommy, who is honestly one of.
Speaker 4 (34:27):
These forces who.
Speaker 2 (34:30):
Spoil is the long word, but like allowed Ellie to
get away with fucking murder.
Speaker 4 (34:40):
Yeah, to get to this point, and.
Speaker 2 (34:42):
It was so important that her contemporary who's on a
completely different track, say hey, look at what look at
what you're doing, Like, look what you're doing to all
of us. That was so important and really ran true.
Speaker 5 (34:56):
So, speaking of things that the showrunners have been.
Speaker 3 (34:59):
Said, let's talk a little bit about.
Speaker 5 (35:04):
This comment that I do think is quite a divisive one. Recently,
when asked if the Fireflies could have successfully created a
vaccine had Joel not killed them, Neil Druckman, creator of
the show and of you know, the game, our intent
(35:24):
was yes they could, He replied, This is so wild
to me.
Speaker 1 (35:28):
This is a bad joy.
Speaker 5 (35:29):
This is one of the absolute reasons that this game
has stayed in the public consciousness and conversation for so long,
because we do not know and because people want to
talk about it. People want to imagine what they would do,
how they would deal with it. Joel is you know,
to many people who played the game, he is in
(35:51):
the right, he is a hero. They are not as
horrified by what he did. And I think that Druckman
Amazon did a great job, as we've talked about quite
extensively in season one finale, of showcasing just how horrific
what Joel did was. But also in this season we
have seen the scars, we have seen the WLF. These
are people who will destroy other people, who will torture
(36:12):
other people, who will kill other people. So the world
that they live in is violent.
Speaker 1 (36:17):
You know.
Speaker 5 (36:18):
Violence is kind of at the heart of everything in
the show, except for what we see in Jackson Hole.
And I think that this is just absolutely a wild
thing to say, because it completely changes and ends a
lot of the conversations. Aaron, when we were in the
group chat talking about this, how is you're feeling As
someone who has not played the game.
Speaker 6 (36:39):
I prefer not knowing, And I am shocked to hear
you say that that is one of the reasons that
the game has remained so powerful, because that's the kind
of mental, philosophical question that most video games do not even.
Speaker 3 (36:57):
Attempt to tackle.
Speaker 6 (36:58):
And so the fact that this game did it is
amazing and the fact that we lost it is horrible.
Speaker 5 (37:07):
Joelle, tell me more, Joel, because you are like, you know,
all of us thereah creatives and Joelle is a fantastic
writer in case you didn't know, So from a writer's perspective,
could you talk a little bit about how that hit
for you.
Speaker 1 (37:20):
I think what.
Speaker 7 (37:22):
It just it zaps a lot of the energy out
of the game, Like it is a different vehicle, So
let's putting you in jewel shoes, so you not knowing
important out and also not being able to make a
different choice. Like it puts you in a very strange
place of like you're understanding his like confusion.
Speaker 1 (37:41):
You don't want to do what he's doing. He's still doing.
Speaker 7 (37:43):
It is like this very strange like tandem relationship of destruction.
And it really hinges on not knowing because if you know,
then you're just playing.
Speaker 1 (37:53):
The baddy, which can be fun.
Speaker 7 (37:54):
You know, game takes a lot of the energy out
for the show. I think it removes a lot of
the friction between Abby and Ellie, and I think, yeah,
that's it makes Abby, right, Yeah, yeah, because otherwise, what
you're left with the two women stepping into their like
(38:17):
adulthood and leadership positions and both really struggling with the
paths what's been done to them and with their future
and how they want to live it. And that's really
in they're totally even at this point, both so justified
and understandably. It's way different if it's like Joel was
a dick and now you're a dick and you're Abby, Like,
(38:37):
I guess you got a shooter girl, because that's the
rules of this universe, Like I don't know else. You
you need that confusion in the town. And I understand
as a creator like wanting to share like, oh no,
Joel's totally.
Speaker 5 (38:49):
So if you think he's right and obviously off to
the first season, I will say that was like as
as we've mentioned, there's been a lot of really wild
online this course about this show throughout its history, but
at the end of season one there was like a
lot of people who are super mad about the way
Joel was portrayed, who felt like he was so I
do also imagine that there is a eagerness on Druckman's
(39:14):
pot to kind of maybe make the morals and ethics
of the show and its character.
Speaker 7 (39:21):
Like the horrors of violence, and people keep coming away
with like he was right, imagine your head is a wall.
Speaker 4 (39:26):
Why don't people understand?
Speaker 3 (39:28):
I think that.
Speaker 2 (39:28):
I think from a process point of view, right you're
in the writer's room, I think it is it makes
complete sense to come to to have a direction in
that sense in terms of could could the fireflies actually
have done it? To discuss that and to but like
(39:49):
I do think that to your point, there's a reason
why we still talk about the Sopranos, and it's because
you just don't know you discussed that's you're dissecting it.
You're wondering which way does this break and does it
even matter to you?
Speaker 4 (40:06):
An answer?
Speaker 1 (40:07):
Right?
Speaker 4 (40:08):
And I think in that.
Speaker 2 (40:10):
Way, not knowing hues more closely to what life is like,
like it's just a road not taken, it's a it's
a and knowing makes it more explicitly a video games story.
We can play it again now knowing what it happened, you.
Speaker 4 (40:28):
Know what I mean?
Speaker 2 (40:29):
And so I think it does to me. It makes
it a little less cool, the story a little less
magical and resonant to actually know that they could have
done it.
Speaker 4 (40:41):
I always lean that way in my heart, but not
knowing too. It's sort of why we love talking about
this story.
Speaker 5 (40:47):
It's also kind of hilarious to come down on it
on one side like that, because, as we have pointed
out many times, both in the games and in the games,
there is more evidence with the notes and the recordings
that maybe the Five fars one to something. But in
the show in the game both it did not look
like they were going to do any good science in
that hospital, like Salt Lake City, did not look like
(41:08):
they were making anything that was going to come close.
Speaker 4 (41:13):
But like, I.
Speaker 5 (41:14):
Think that is another thing where it's just kind of
if it's this moral black and white choice and the
idea is yeah, they could have, then make me believe
it in the story as well.
Speaker 6 (41:25):
Have been good ever come from a creator after the
work is finished and published, like saying something additional, just
tell me, like who the main character's favorite band is
into it, to get on.
Speaker 7 (41:42):
The back and be like, no, that's not what I
was trying to do.
Speaker 1 (41:44):
Just hold on.
Speaker 3 (41:47):
Okay.
Speaker 5 (41:48):
Another big kind of news point that we should hit
on post the finale is drug Men revealed that they
were actually working on a different game other than intercollect
which we got the which I'm really excited about because
it has Tatty Gabrielle as he character. She's amazing. I
love that they saw how good she was as Noura
(42:08):
and wanted to give her a Biggert space, but everyone thought,
well that was it. So is part of the reason
that they're saying, well, we can't finish the story in
three seasons because the new game is going to be
last of US part three and it comes out alongside
season four, and that is kind of what they corporate synergy.
Speaker 4 (42:28):
You can see it coming right big. It makes absolutely
too much sense.
Speaker 7 (42:36):
I mean.
Speaker 5 (42:38):
Dropping these nuggets like in her bro you know.
Speaker 3 (42:41):
So I feel like, yes, that's what.
Speaker 4 (42:43):
Makes way too much sense, Jason. And by the way,
the last thing you.
Speaker 2 (42:47):
Want, as if you're drunk man, I think, is for
a season of television to come out that blows up
your game. They need to come out true in tandem
or basically at the same time, so.
Speaker 4 (43:04):
One does not necessarily spoil the other.
Speaker 3 (43:07):
That's Jason, what I think they would want as.
Speaker 5 (43:09):
Someone who's played the games like many times, and it
is what would you want to see in a Loss
of Us Part three, like where does it go for you?
Speaker 3 (43:19):
What do you want to look at? Who does it?
Speaker 5 (43:20):
Well?
Speaker 4 (43:21):
Listen, it's an open world racing game. You can play
as a cow well, I mean listen.
Speaker 2 (43:36):
Uh. Coming to this with you know, with storyteller brain,
having been storyteller pilled not to see this as an
elaborate kind of to see like a a WWE slash
(43:58):
superhero structure in this What do I mean? You have
Hero one and Hero two, they meet, they don't get along,
they hate each other, They fight, fight, fight, fight fight.
Speaker 4 (44:10):
Then what happens?
Speaker 5 (44:11):
Uh Uh?
Speaker 4 (44:15):
I don't know how it would happen.
Speaker 2 (44:18):
I don't know how it would happen, but it feels
like the only place Listen, you know how storytelling goes
character A can't do this thing, refuses to do this thing.
The arc must be that they do the thing right.
How do they get together? How do they cooperate? I
think that that's the only place this story can go.
Speaker 4 (44:39):
And the fact that.
Speaker 2 (44:39):
You can't imagine how it will get there means that
you know, Druckman and Amazing are really going to be
or Druckman, you know, primarily is really.
Speaker 4 (44:49):
Going to be in the lab making it make sense that.
Speaker 2 (44:52):
They would get to that place where they cooperate. I
think that's the only place that it can.
Speaker 5 (44:57):
Also as well, maybe some kind of quest to undo
what Joel did and find a cute I heard a rumor.
Speaker 7 (45:07):
That Tommy was going to be the main character of
the third game, and if that's the case, it makes
a lot of sense to me that they gave him
a kid in this season, which he does not have
in the game, right, and it sort of like helps
you fast tracked whatever is going on in game three.
Speaker 1 (45:24):
Potentially this is just a rumor, and I.
Speaker 7 (45:26):
Like the idea of, like if what we're continuing in
is like what's left behind in the legacy. You've got
so many children on the board right now. We've got
Dina's kid, We've got Tommy's kid. We don't really know
what's going on with Abby and her stuff, but I imagine
we get some form of like younger sibling or apprentice
(45:50):
or whatever from there, and maybe what we're seeing is
Tommy trying to help that generation not end up like
the ones.
Speaker 5 (45:57):
That would be a really delightful kind of What would
interest you most is someone who hasn't watched the game,
if you were going to kind of paint a season
four or season three that you would want that doesn't
go along with what you know of the game and
just is based on what you've seen in the show.
What do you think you'd be most interested in continuing
to explore?
Speaker 6 (46:16):
I mean, Jason said it. I think, yeah, the two
of them teaming up there there's some way that actually
someone else has an idea of how to make a
vaccine and the two of them go and now like,
let's fix it.
Speaker 3 (46:28):
Yeah, yeah, get.
Speaker 6 (46:30):
You know, the sins of our fathers and hear me right,
So that would be I think a slam dunk.
Speaker 5 (46:37):
That sounds honestly pretty fantastic. Okay, last questions before we
wrap it up.
Speaker 3 (46:44):
What do you need to.
Speaker 5 (46:45):
See in season three to make you care about Abby?
After we saw her just shoot Jesse in the face,
you know, Joel whatever. We've kind of talked about that,
but Joel and Aaron, what do you need to see
to care about Abby? And thighs with her situation?
Speaker 1 (47:02):
I already care about Abby.
Speaker 7 (47:04):
The show makes a really strong and decisive decision to
be like from go you understand like why what Abby's morning?
And because that rage has already been cemented twice already
with Joel and Ellie. It's very easy to understand, like
it's it's.
Speaker 1 (47:20):
Part of the disease.
Speaker 7 (47:21):
And in the same way twenty eight days later is
like the rage is the thing that turns you. I
really think like there's parallels here between like, oh god,
the community versus the individual. The mushrooms are a community,
they work really well together. Rage is dividing these humans,
is stopping them from being able to come together and
work together. And so I think for me, what I'm
(47:43):
hoping we get out of Abby is like.
Speaker 1 (47:47):
It's I mean, I almost don't. I love Belle Ramsey.
Speaker 7 (47:50):
They should be able to do whatever, but I almost
don't want to see them in the next season. I
think it would It would be challenging in all so,
I know it's really difficult in our current time to
figure out, like as a studio, like how do we
protect our performers and still tell a good story. There's
a lot of balance to be Like if you just
(48:11):
remove Bella Ramsay, is that like when Star Wars just
hate the characters people didn't like and like manage them.
Is Rosico just gone? Or is this part of the
certain And so it has to be tactically done. I
think Craig's got a deft enough pen to nail it.
But I would like to see is just it's just
purely Abby's journey, so that by the time we get
to that gun pull, wear fully understanding all three sixty
sides of it, and the final episode is the resolution
(48:34):
fallout of that moment.
Speaker 1 (48:36):
Yeah, I see what are you hearing?
Speaker 6 (48:37):
I mean I want some sweet moments of Abby and
her friends because we have only really seen her be
upset with them and short with them, and she is
so filled with rage and these people who have done
something horrible with her and they're the ones paying the price. Yeah,
for her, and they're the ones paying the price give
(48:58):
me a reason to This is the wrong phrase, but
to know it was worth it?
Speaker 4 (49:03):
Like is she what are these people?
Speaker 3 (49:07):
They love her?
Speaker 6 (49:07):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (49:08):
Yeah, what is it?
Speaker 5 (49:08):
So?
Speaker 6 (49:08):
I want to know more about that. I understand she
lost her father. I need I need more about why
so many people trusted her? And I mean, you know,
she's like tapped in to be the new face of
the w LF, Like why is everyone so in on her?
When to me, she's like, right now a really good
mirror for Ellie, who we know is not going to
(49:31):
be taking over Jackson Hole from what I can see, like,
how are these what's the difference with Avy? So that's
what I want to see.
Speaker 3 (49:38):
Okay.
Speaker 5 (49:38):
Also, just before we finished, Jason, you brought up the sopranos.
Let's talk about the ending, Jason, how did that work?
Speaker 4 (49:45):
Back?
Speaker 5 (49:47):
It's You're gonna this is like a crazy nineties style
ambiguous ending.
Speaker 3 (49:52):
But how are people going to I know that you.
Speaker 5 (49:55):
Guys, there's going to be people who are so mad
about this.
Speaker 2 (49:58):
Reactions which is the stame react Basically, I have to
any effective Clive, which is one like fuck you.
Speaker 4 (50:09):
And that's why that's why you're not you don't.
Speaker 2 (50:13):
Have the balls to do it. I know you don't,
and there's the and then there's the maybe you do.
So I thought it was very effective and I also
like listen and I think a lot of people are
gonna have that reaction like fuck you?
Speaker 4 (50:27):
Are you serious? Fuck you? Craig? What about you? Everybody's reaction?
What are your reactions?
Speaker 1 (50:35):
I mean, just wow?
Speaker 7 (50:36):
Really, because I think, especially because what you're really stuck
in is not even that gunshot.
Speaker 1 (50:42):
I still thinking about Jesse, like I can't.
Speaker 4 (50:44):
Like you don't even have time, you don't have time
to process it.
Speaker 7 (50:47):
No, it's so chaotic and it's so and like, you know,
for Tommy to be like run, You're like, there's no
running from this, Tommy to please get grow up. You're
worried about like where's Dina. We don't even see her.
Hopefully she's hiding.
Speaker 1 (51:01):
But for how long is that work?
Speaker 7 (51:02):
But really you're just like we just lost everything, Like
really it's crazy because we didn't get a lot of
time with Jesse, but you're just like it's all gone.
Speaker 5 (51:10):
It was such an emmy performance.
Speaker 7 (51:13):
He truly was so solid, and I think like that
to me makes the freezing of time feel right, Like
it's it's so chaotic and it's so emotionally overwrought and
she's like, and just stay suspended here, We'll be right back.
I was like, I love this, this really Workstreme, what
about you?
Speaker 5 (51:27):
Hear?
Speaker 6 (51:28):
I mean, it was a huge shock and I loved it,
And now looking back at it, I am glad that
they didn't cut to black and then do Ellie's recording
of take on Me by Aha. I would have been yeah.
Speaker 5 (51:43):
But you know what I think you I agree with
all of you. And I also think, like, now we've
talked about it, if they really do not have Bella
in season three and that's how they end, that's gonna
be some brave fucking TV.
Speaker 3 (51:59):
If you don't get solution.
Speaker 5 (52:00):
Told the finale of season three to know the outcome,
and that is there's the ninety percent of you're not
fucking brave enough, but there's the ten percent of, oh
what if you are?
Speaker 7 (52:11):
It's not taking notes from folks, So it feels like
whatever we have is like exactly his vision is Neils
and so yeah, I'm excited to see what happens.
Speaker 2 (52:22):
Well, that's it for our the last of US two
season finale round table chow. Thank you so much for
joining us. Coming up in the next few episodes of
Extra Vision, we're continuing to look at summer movies with
the history of the stunts in the Mission Impossible franchise.
The next week, we have a sendoff for the beloved
Nintendo Switch and a look back at the John Wick
(52:44):
franchise as we get ready for an indie armist in
Ballerina that tip.
Speaker 4 (52:49):
This episode, X ray Vision is hosted by Jason Concepcion.
Speaker 5 (52:57):
I'm Rosie Knight.
Speaker 4 (52:58):
And is a production of iheartpot.
Speaker 5 (53:00):
Our executive producers are Joel Monique and Aaron Kaufman.
Speaker 4 (53:04):
Our supervising producer is Abu Zafar.
Speaker 5 (53:06):
Our producers are Common, Laurent Dean Jonathan and Bay Wag.
Speaker 2 (53:11):
A theme song is by Brian Vasquez, with alternate theme
songs by Aaron Kauffman.
Speaker 5 (53:15):
Special thanks to Soul Rubin, Chris Lord, Kenny Goodman and
Heidi Our discord moderator
Hosts And Creators
Jason Concepcion
Rosie Knight
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Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Special Summer Offer: Exclusively on Apple Podcasts, try our Dateline Premium subscription completely free for one month! With Dateline Premium, you get every episode ad-free plus exclusive bonus content.
The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy, Jess Hilarious, And Charlamagne Tha God!
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.