April 29, 2025 • 53 mins
Jason and Rosie continue with their coverage of The Last of Us season 2, Ellie sets out on her own with Dina in episode 3, “The Path”. How are we feeling now that Joel is gone? Our hosts discuss all that, and more.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Warning. Today's episode k Dad spoilers for season two episode
three of the Last of Us. You have been warned.
Watch it, watch it, watch it.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Hello.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
I am Jason Concepcion and I'm Merday Night and welcome
back to x ray Vision of the podcast where we
dive deep busier, favorite shows, movies, comics of pop culture
coming to you from my art podcast. We'll we'll bring
you three episodes a week every Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday and News.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
And in today's episode, we are talking about the Last
of Us Season two episode three, the past.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
Have you been dreading watching this episode?
Speaker 2 (00:48):
I was dreading it. It was it was tough off
the last last episode. Every episode, I'm dreading every episode.
But it's another really interesting, thought provoking, discourse inducing episode.
And let's talk about it because there's a lot to
talk about.
Speaker 1 (01:06):
Okay, Episode three we open following the events of episode two.
Jackson is still on fire. There's still bodies in the street.
The town looks like it's taken a real hit. I
don't know how many dead, but I would imagine it's
in the dozens.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
Definitely looks like you're talking about scores of people. I'm saying, would.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
You say live in Jackson two thousand, three thousand.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
Yeah, maybe like with all the refugees. And I feel
like if that's the case, then we're talking about we
definitely lost like hundreds because it looked like a lot
of people.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
Yeah, like a large percentage surely of what is I
would say, like ten.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
Percent Jackson is it looks like it lost.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
Tommy Is goes to see his brother's body and is
washing it uh to say goodbye as they prepare to
bury him. The halls of the clinic are packed with
just all kinds of people who are injured, who need attention,
who have been shot in friendly fire incidents, whatever. Ellie
(02:12):
is just coming to after sedation. She's undergone surgery because
I guess she broke it seems like she had collapsed
lung and maybe some kind.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
Of broken rib from where Manny kicked her.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
Yeah, And as she wakes up the trauma, the reality
of what has occurred, the fact that she watched Joel
get murdered in front of her, hits her and she
starts screaming. We skip forward some months or weeks.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
Yeah, unclear, but her hair is a bit longer, so
I think that's off the ground. Months a couple of months.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
The leaves are on the trees. Jesse and Tommy are
like pounding steaks in as they rebuild. Tommy has to
take the take the sledgehammer because Jesse has to take
the sledgehammer for Tommy because Tommy's old.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
Now yeah, I know, and Jesse's like, he's like the new,
the general. And also you can tell that Tommy is
he's given, he's feeling some probably love towards Jesse. Now
their you know, Joel is gone. I think you can
see that that connection is there. Also Jesse showing off
those arms, showing off those muscles, they're like, they're like,
(03:16):
this is the thirty second shot of a man hammering
a stake into the ground. If that's your kind of thing.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
A doctor is a tests Ellie to make sure her
breathing's okay, all that stuff, her lung volume is good,
and then but what about her mind? Your her body
is healed, but what are her mind? Gail comes in,
Gail the town's only therapist, uh, which we confirm here
she really is and she really is, she confirms it.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
I'm like, Gail, teach someone, you could train them.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
You need to offload some of this Ellie is typically
prickly in a cerbic towards Gail, does not want to
really go through this process, tries to rush through it.
Gail is like, okay, talk about New Year's Eve, the
last when was the last time you and Joel spoke?
And she talks about the fact that that was the
last time, in that she saw him on his porch
(04:11):
New Year's Eve and then did not speak to him.
She wishes she spoke to him, and then Gail in
what I can only describe as a complete rupture of therapist,
a shocking rupture of therapy ethics that I listen, I
get it. It's the post apocalypse is a different world,
(04:33):
but this is not how it should be. Gail then
is like, hey, so when I was working with Joel,
Joel mentioned that he wronged you in some way, and
he like, maybe in a bad way. Do you know
what he was talking about? Which, again, I don't think
you should be talking about your patients with other.
Speaker 2 (04:50):
People, and you are supposed to keep that secret off
to somebody dies you want. Knowing that does not change Gail.
I al, I'm very interested in this interaction too, because
one Ellie has clearly been seeing Gail long enough that
she knows how to play the game. She knows what
she's supposed to say. Gail knows Ellie is only playing
(05:11):
the game. So why does Gail bring up this notion
of how Joel Ronka Is that? Because Gail wants to
find a reason to feel like her hate of Joel
is justified. Like I'm interested in that because the reality is,
it doesn't really matter what Joel did now, because Joel's
dead and Ellie is not.
Speaker 1 (05:31):
Like now, maybe there's like a frame that you could
use right where Gail is thinking, if Joel did something
that really was traumatizing towards Ellie, she being my patient,
I should we should talk about it. But I don't
think you would say that Joel told me this. I
think you would try and dig around right anyway, Gail.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
Yeah, Gail, drink and smoking all day and then go
in and tell people about their problem was like, come on, babe,
But Katine O'Hara, you're a queen.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
Now, if I think again, The look on Ellie's face
tells me that she suspects she knows what Joel is
talking about. Because I think most certainly because I think
you and I are on the same page that Ellie
knows that.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
So we don't know yet, and we may find this
out via flashback whether Joel ever told Tommy what happened.
We know he did tell him in the game, So
I also wonder if they're translating that part of it
to the fact that Joel did at some point admit
to Ellie that her suspicions were correct.
Speaker 3 (06:42):
So I'm interested to find out how that goes.
Speaker 2 (06:45):
But Ellie definitely knows, and in this moment, she is
really like playing Gail, and Gail knows it because Ellie's like,
I guess I'll just have to work through this. I'm
gonna have to let myself off the hook, and she's
saying all the right therapy things, but we know that
inside she is just fucking burning with righteous fury about
what happened.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
Ellie is released. She goes to Joel's house. There's flowers
the yard. People have been paying their respects the weeks
that have passed. She goes through his empty house, his
empty bedroom. She finds a red box on his bed.
It's got his watch and his gigantic revolver in it.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
Oh my god, He's like all right, like an Eastwood
like like like a cowboy, like a fallen cowboy.
Speaker 1 (07:31):
She hugs his jacket, which, oh man, I was tearing up.
That was tearing up. That is That's one of those
tropes that gets me every time.
Speaker 3 (07:42):
Me too, because I do think it's like.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
I think it's a thing people do.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
You definitely a thing.
Speaker 4 (07:47):
People do, and also as well, just like a weird
kind of unacknowledged universal truth of like we are, you know,
we are connected to scents and the way people smell
and neck clothes and the way people feel.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
It's this little, tiny kind of texture of life. And
I think the reason it is a trope is because
I think it is true, you know. And I think
in that moment also Bella Ramsey just you are absolutely
killing it. Like I love this episode for you. It's
so good. I love the way the play that Ellie
has with Gail and this kind of conversation which will
(08:20):
come into play later in the episode when Gail says
something very interesting in my opinion, and I just think,
then the moment when Ellie walks out of the hospital
and it's just this kind of close up dolly shot
of her face as everything else behind her is kind
of blurry and you see the real troop of how
Ellie's feeling. Just a powerhouse powerhouse performance from Bella Ramsey.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
Dina comes over, Ellie drives her eyes and goes to
meet her in the dining room, trying to act normal,
which Ellie, there's no reason to pretend like you are
not shattered by this. I think we all get it,
Like you don't need to do that. But Dina brings
cookies like this kind of piece off ring and says,
I'm bringing these cookies because I'm about to make you angry.
(09:03):
And basically she tells her that she's knows who the
killers are and knows where they're from. Ellie is mad
because she's like, you cost us time you let them
get away. It makes a great point that like it's
a great point. We're weak now, we're not even the
walls are not rebuilt. People are dead. There's a lot
(09:25):
to sort out here. And in the days that followed
Joel's death, we were in no state to go chasing.
Speaker 2 (09:30):
Him after that. And also Ellie would have never recovered
and would have pulled the tubes out of her arms
and just like gone with the broken rib and died,
you know, and Also I love Dina coming to Ellie
with almost like a strategy point here as well, because
she says to She's like, and if you know where
somebody's going, I do, then why follow them? Why not
(09:52):
just meet them where they are? Yeah? If now they
were going at the end of the episode, So maybe
that was not the best idea, but but I loved
his mindset and I think that wins Ellie over. And
obviously the cookies are also delicious.
Speaker 1 (10:05):
So she tells Ellie the names, and of course Ellie
is most interested in the girl with the ponytail, Abbey,
and they're from the Washington Liberation Front that their little
logo is a wolf's head, one of the kind of
multiple splinter groups that had been opposing FEDRA in recent years,
(10:27):
and they're based out of Seattle, and Dina thinks wrongly
that they're probably small enough for.
Speaker 5 (10:37):
Them to handle understandable often understanding what she's still because
the truth is the group that we met, yeah, they
kind of had a militia e vibe, but they did
seem like a road group.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
Abby was not a great leader. It was all very
emotionally driven and there was a brutality there that spoke
to kind of a lone wolf survival effort of the group.
Speaker 3 (10:58):
So I understand what they was thinking.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
But the fact they have a logo, I feel like
that's like, that's where I'm at. I'm like, babe, if
you have a logo, that's a graphic designer in the
team to have a logo, Like, that's where I'm at.
Speaker 1 (11:14):
Like if they if you have patches, they're built up.
What are you talking about?
Speaker 2 (11:20):
What you got.
Speaker 1 (11:22):
On? They've got a sewing department.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
It's not they literally like had to get someone who
knew how to embroider to make the patches, to make
along the patches. It's not like it's a school logo
that they have reappropriated.
Speaker 1 (11:35):
This is right scribbled, you know. It's not like the
surafights and it's like somebody exactly they found like you know,
like no, this is stitched. It's like I could go
on atsy right now and buy that dolls.
Speaker 3 (11:51):
Literally.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
Also, something I do love is this and I think
this is something that maybe annoys viewers or whatever, but
I felt this in the game too, And I feel
like they sum it up in the show is like
Dina and Ellie are teenagers. They're still teenagers. They're kind
of dumb, like that's just normal teenagers do this stuff,
so I think, and especially someone like Dina who has
(12:12):
lived in Jackson and really has like a little overcome,
a little over confident, and especially in as Dina reminds Ellie,
like Dina loved Joel too, so she is also probably
you know, Joel was almost like a superhero in this world,
like not necessarily morally, but like what he could withstand.
And I think that adds to the the overconfidence. So
(12:36):
you know, then, yeah, I thought it's believable. But hilariously,
I was like, no, if they've got as confident the
Personalyptic design team, don't go stea. Jackson doesn't even have
like a patch. It doesn't even have like well anyway
everything else.
Speaker 1 (12:55):
Yeah, the girls pitched Tommy on you know, getting a
Posse together revenge mission. He makes basically the same points
that Dina made earlier, which is Towns Week were not ready.
Ellie tries to lecture Tommy, which I thought was this
is a great moment for Tommy, who basically says, listen,
that's my brother. Don't try to act or present yourself
(13:18):
as someone who knows my brother better than I do stop.
Speaker 2 (13:20):
Because also they live like it's it's easy to forget
for Ellie who like a quarter of her life has
been with Joel or whatever, maybe almost half of it now. Yeah,
but like Joel and Tommy were together for decades, you know,
they grew up together, they lived together before, they lived together,
through they separated, they came back together. And I love
it because I think that it's such a beautiful moment
(13:46):
where you still get this kindness and empathy from Tommy
where he doesn't like hammer it home in some horrible way.
He just kind of gives her the reminder of like,
let's not pretend he's not my brother.
Speaker 1 (13:59):
There's respect there where Ellie's like, okay, you got me
on that. Yeah, and he says, listen, we'll put it
up for a vote in front of this council. Ellie's like, fuck, yes,
the council. That's the way we do things here in Jackson.
So sorry, and Tommy then warns Dina, you hold out
on Ellie, fine, because she would have ripped the tube
(14:20):
to your point, yeah, Rosie, she would have rip the
tubes out and tried to go. But you tell me
when you have that information.
Speaker 3 (14:26):
And honestly, she should have told Tommy.
Speaker 2 (14:29):
But also I think she could have also argued a
similar thing of and we'll get to this because it's
been a very big conversation point on the internet. But
like if Dina could have made the argument that if
she'd have told Tommy early, he might not still be
in Jackson now, and I think Jackson needs Tommy. But
obviously that will come into play as we as we
(14:49):
converse later.
Speaker 1 (14:51):
So he tells Ellie where Joel and the rest are buried,
about ten miles outside of the city, and she says,
I'll pay my respects on the way Seattle. We go
to the woods somewhere on the trail to Seattle. The
serophytes say, okay, the scars wow. Our first meeting with them.
They communicate just like in the game, via whistles as
(15:13):
they walk the trail, the distinctive scars on their cheeks.
The cult is migrating. They're moving somewhere to separate themselves
from the dangers that exist in the area. They follow
the teachings of a dead prophet. They're talking about it.
(15:34):
This older gentleman is talking about it with this young
girl and he lets her hold a hammer, which is
one of their signature weapons, and then there's a warning
whistle from down the trail and the cult dives into
the trees away.
Speaker 2 (15:45):
I thought this was an interesting introduction to the Teraphytes
because usually, like in the game, they are this really brutal,
antagonistic force. Obviously, the hammers there's a lot of sacrificial creepiness,
very cult vibes.
Speaker 3 (15:58):
But I think the introduction of the.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
Child, even with her excitement to have the hammer and
her excitement for what is clearly violence, this is a
very humanizing introduction, especially with what goes on next, So
I'm very interested to see how they expand on that
as we move towards the rest of the season.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
We go back to Jackson. Jesse is getting Ellie back
into fighting shape. He wants to make sure that her
injured side, the right side, is strong enough for her
to fight somebody or maybe multiple people. Jesse's on the
council now and Ellie asks another ethics violation.
Speaker 2 (16:37):
And luckily Jesse is a real one. He's at the
segu Jesse. Thanks, Jesse, show us well I should be
living that's.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
Right, integrity and morality and government. It is so refreshing
to see this Ellie is like, hey, can I count
on your vote? And Jesse's like, you know, I can't discuss.
Speaker 3 (16:57):
He's absolutely not like that does make any sense.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
And then which I again I much respect to Jesse,
and then gives her a good tip, which is, don't
come off angry.
Speaker 3 (17:07):
Don't come off they're gonna vote for angry.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
Yeah, nobody's gonna follow you down the trail of a
revenge mission that they might not come back from.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
Also, I thought it was really cool to see Ellie training.
And also I thought there was some very interesting kind
of the way it was shot and showing how cut
Bella actually is and kind of a little bit more
of a throwback to what people might have expected Abby
to look like. I think there's some very interesting stuff
going on there. And yeah, I am I'm a Jesse fan.
(17:34):
I'm saying just stay stay in your weird like love
triangle with Jesse. It's all gonna be okay. Do not
go to Seattle. Stay in Jackson. Jesse will look after you, guys,
He'll teach you how to fight. It's gonna be okay.
Don't go. Don't go, guys.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
We go to the council meeting. They're trying to burn
through their schedule to get through the jowel thing that
they're getting hung up on. Oh, you know, chickens versus turkeys.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
I want to say this is a true representation of
local representations. I also want to say thank you to
our discord who very politely let me know that the
Council of Jackson Hole, where we saw them telling off
Dina and Ellie one time, that was probably already built.
They didn't spend their time building it. Okay, I get it,
(18:22):
but I will.
Speaker 3 (18:23):
Say this was unbelievable.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
When he starts talking about he's like, you know, corn
is not the most delicious crop, but it is the fastest,
and like, that's what I really want to come in
today to talk to you about. And they're like please,
everyone else is here for this one specific reason. And
he's like, I don't care about that.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
That's it's like it's correct, Yeah, real life, real life.
Another speaker gets up, Rachel. She speaks against the POSSE,
I think, making good points that the towns sixteen is
a lot of people to spare right now, that might
be they might have lost sixteen people or probably more
(19:00):
honestly in the in the fight and to send another sixteen.
You don't know if they're coming back at this stage.
I tend to agree that it's I.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
Agree, I think sixteen.
Speaker 3 (19:10):
When they said that, I was.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
Like, whoa.
Speaker 3 (19:11):
And also as well, I think the other thing that
she makes.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
Us sources and you know, and the whole thing.
Speaker 2 (19:17):
I think what she makes a really good point about here.
That again, I think is one of the things this
show does really well. And we talked about it last
episode is like where are empathy and focus is on?
This show comes from where the framing is. We love Ellie,
we love Joel, but but but but but, as Rachel
(19:37):
points out, like she lost her sister, so many people
were lost in this. Why do we have to put
the town at risk for one man?
Speaker 1 (19:45):
Like?
Speaker 2 (19:45):
And I think that is what Tommy understands and what
Maria understands, And that's why you have to come to
the council because everybody lost something, yea, and actually.
Speaker 1 (19:54):
Everybody it makes good everybody makes good point.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
Does this push Jackson forward in a way that is
good for everybody?
Speaker 1 (20:02):
Right? Carlile then gets up and makes a turn the
other cheek pitch, basically saying, hey, if you know, break
the cycle of violence? This is what breaking the cycle
of violence is. Seth gets up and yells at him
and is basically saying, you know, they don't deserve our mercy,
and Carlo makes a good point that that's why it's mercy,
and then Seth basically gives a fuck them, kill them
all speech, like like they came here, they took one
(20:25):
of ours, we have to strike back. Ellie then makes
her speech, and I think it's good and I think
she makes some good points that.
Speaker 2 (20:33):
Really stuck you because it did a really good job
like priming her, like write it down, don't get dress.
Just before we get to Ellie, though, I do want
to say I think this is such a good interaction
between Carlyle and Seth because Carlyle is arguing for the
very thing that allows Seth to still be in yes group.
That's a great point, hey, break the cycle of violence,
(20:54):
Like Maria is gonna get you to apologize to this person,
forgive and be forgiven. That has worked for Jackson on
a small scale, so why wouldn't they do that with this?
I will also say, hilariously, Seth makes a good argument
where he's basically like, oh, if you don't kill them,
they're going to come back. They're going to be raiders.
They're going to do this again and again. I don't
(21:14):
know if he believes it. I think he is trying
to stick up for Ane, and I don't know if
I believe it. But the funny thing is, ironically, in
this case, Carlile is definitely right because, as we will
find out, it doesn't matter Set. They could take Jackson
Hole if they wanted. That's what we learned like that,
so that doesn't matter. You can't scare them out of it.
(21:35):
But I found this to be a very interesting kind
of interior look at how Jackson Hole has survived and
whether or not this will help it survive.
Speaker 1 (21:44):
Ellie then makes her a speech and she, I think
very wisely reframes sets, fuck him, kill them all angle
in a more familial way, framing it as an act
of justice and familiar love, basically saying like, if one
of you is hurt, I will go to the ends
(22:05):
of the earth to get justice. And this is where like,
I'm more looking at the how fucked up the town
is I was, I'm more I definitely lean Rachel and Carlisle.
That said, I do think that there is something in
the way Ellie and even Set's point of view that
(22:26):
says that is a bond in the community that says, hey,
if something wrong, if someone wrongs you, something happens to
you from outside this community, we are going to seek redress. Yeah,
that is the because you're asking all these people all
the time to risk their lives, not just for citizenship
(22:48):
in this inside the safe walls and the confines of
this place, but they have to go outside of them
and do all these things that are very dangerous and risky.
And I think part of building those bonds is the
understanding that the other people here have your back and
if something happens, you know, your kids, the people who
(23:10):
love you, are going to be strengthened by the notion
that the town will seek justice. So I thought this
was strong.
Speaker 2 (23:18):
I thought Ellie did a really good job here. It's
a really interesting argument. I think she's right about the
idea of it being about justice over revenge, and obviously
we know Ellie wants revenge, but I think it's an
interesting framing. Second, I also think, like, well, you know Ellie,
we know her really you Well, that's the thing is
like Ellie is lying her ass off.
Speaker 1 (23:39):
She's very good speech.
Speaker 2 (23:41):
Sometimes you actually like she is lying for the great
she does believe it's for the greater good. Like the
way she's arguing it, she meants into the framework of
Jackson Like she's not making a null and void point.
You know, I agree with you, and I think something
else that's interesting is otherwise and I love like I'm
(24:02):
definitely a Carlyle in real life, you know, I dream
of a like noncstoral state where we can all believe
in each other. But in the world of the Last
of Us in the zombie apocalypse, is it realistic that
you think that Jackson Hole can survive simply by always
forgiving those people who do you wrong. I don't know
if that eventually is really going to keep you safe.
(24:24):
You know, I think that there is a reality that
Ellie is touching on here that, whether she means it
or not, feels like she's onto something.
Speaker 3 (24:34):
And I, yeah, I'm very interested.
Speaker 2 (24:36):
Let's talk about what happens next, because I want to
know your thoughts on who who's voted for what?
Speaker 1 (24:41):
So oh, I think it's very easy to figure out.
So I just want to say Ellie lies. She says
that it's not about revenge and everybody's like.
Speaker 2 (24:49):
Yeah, right, She's like.
Speaker 1 (24:51):
And she says she'll abide. Yes, she says she'll abide
by the vote, which everybody understands is also a lie.
The vote goes out and it is eight to three against,
and I think very clearly it's Maria Jesse, Tommy the
three yes.
Speaker 2 (25:07):
I agree because I will say and I am just
such a big fan of the actress who plays Maria.
She's so brilliant. She was so great in True True Blood,
Rettina Wesley. She's so fantastic, And she does this momentary
face acting, this tiny little bit of emotion when Ellie
(25:29):
finishes her speech where she looks at Tommy and she
is like, she doesn't be with pride because that wouldn't
be appropriate as the council member in that moment, but
there is a slight smile and a nod of the
head where you just know she thinks, like, yeah, this
is the right thing to do, and people are gonna
vote for this. Like she she smiles, she sees Tommy,
(25:51):
and I just I thought she was just so great
in that moment, because you really feel like there has
been a connection between her Tommy Ellie, and there's a
complexity of understanding about what they should do. But she
feels like they're going to do the right thing, and
obviously we see that they don't.
Speaker 1 (26:06):
Let's take a quick break.
Speaker 2 (26:07):
When you're out.
Speaker 1 (26:22):
And we're back, Tommy seeks out Gail. He finds her
watching a Jackson Little League baseball game, and they talk
about the vote. Gil's drink and of course I will
say that I think that Seth did more harm than good.
I think his I think his outburst kind of scared
people a little bit, and I think it might have
been closer if we had just let Ellie.
Speaker 3 (26:43):
I agree.
Speaker 2 (26:44):
I think that Jesse was right. No one's going to
vote for anger. Yeah, you know, and Seth ended up
trying to help.
Speaker 1 (26:49):
But I think the other thing is you get the
picture that from not just the homophobia that says is
kind of the asshole in town, right, So him having
him on your side might not help. Yeah, So they
talk about the vote, Tommy and Gail. Gail admits that yes,
as the town's only therapist, I'm getting trauma dumped right now,
(27:09):
Gail again train a therapist. Tommy says, hey, I'm concerned
Ellie is gonna act, and Gail's like, no shit, She's
gonna go, what the fuck are you talking about? And
then Tommy's like, you know, I think she learned a
lot of this from Joel. That's this is what Joel
was like in the you know, I don't want her
to be the guy that Joel was that in the
years after the Fall, when he was just lashing out
(27:30):
all the time and killing people, we would assume and
doing violent shit. And Gail says, listen, you'd be surprised
at how much Again, this is another thing that struck
me as a therapist. Weird that Gale would do. Gail
would then say, hey, you know, in the in the
struggle between nature and nurture, it's often the innate essence
(27:54):
of a person that comes to the surface and not
not the way they are raised in their experiences. Gail
basically saying, why do I have a job?
Speaker 2 (28:05):
Why is my.
Speaker 1 (28:05):
Role even important? People are just gonna do what they do.
Very weird take from Gail.
Speaker 2 (28:11):
Very hilarious that Gail says that about Ellie, who is
like still basically I'm just only just stop being a minor.
She's nineteen and for like seven years of her life
was raised by fucking Joel. So I think nature Nutcha,
like how did it come to be? But I also
think I'm loving how much of a bad therapist they're
(28:31):
making Gail, because I also.
Speaker 1 (28:33):
She's like openly like, I'm an alcoholic ID all the time,
I talk about my patients with my other patient shits.
I was mad at Joel because he killed my husband
when it seems clearly like he killed him because he
was tuned like. But I think that Katherine O'Hara brings
a complexity to it and a humor to it that
(28:54):
feels way more real than if she was just like, actually,
you know, still acting like a therapist who was the
only therapist in his zombie apocalypse.
Speaker 2 (29:02):
But yeah, I thought that was really interesting, and I
also wondered if that's like again, was her hatred for
Joel and what happened with Eugene kind of like transferring
a little bit to Ellie because the idea of just
saying like she's a liar, she'll never change, She's just
that kind of person. I was quite some felt.
Speaker 1 (29:18):
I was taken aback. I was really taken aback, I
have to say. But to give Gail a little bit
of grace, I think she's frankly burned out.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
Truly, babe, you got you tell, you tell Tommy forty
years of psychotherapy. Just train someone that training kids, That
training kids out to fix a telephone, that training kids,
just training. You have to listen.
Speaker 1 (29:47):
Do you think the doctor who was looking after Ellie,
who is maybe thirty, who was probably fifteen when all
the shit went down, went to medical school and on
this shit, Hey, come on, just trained somebody anyway. Yeah,
Gayla is like, of course Ellie's gonna go, and YadA YadA. Later,
Dina comes to see Ellie. Ellie is in the middle
of packing for her one woman revenge mission to kill
(30:11):
Abbey and her friends, and she tries to lie that Elly, yeah,
I'm going to bed and I'm not really going, And
then Gina's like, give me a fucking break. And by
the way, look at what you're packing. You're packing all guns,
no food.
Speaker 2 (30:22):
It's such a good line where she goes, I'm going
to bed, and Dina goes, that is not why you're going, Like,
we know where you're fucking going.
Speaker 1 (30:31):
So she then immediately shows her value to this mission
by saying, here's the route we're gonna take up through
the northwest this trail. Here here is our list of
provisions that we're gonna need, including food for the horse, ammo,
et cetera. You gotta put on some hiking boots. You
(30:55):
can't be wearing fucking Chuck Taylor's on a cross country revenge, surely,
so to see how wurs Rainias box Let. We're going
to be getting cold and we're going to take I
know a guy who's going to provision us, and we're
gonna take Shimmer. We meet at this gate at three am.
Seth is the one that meets them in the dark.
He makes Ellie trade rifles with him because his rifle
(31:16):
is better, and he turns out he's the guy that's
supplying her. Now. I want to talk about this because
I think it's interesting ASSISI is an addition, it's interesting
to me to see people say, oh, they're making Seth
a good guy. They're not making him a good guy.
And I think this has been a you know, there
was a piece in Polygon about why not.
Speaker 2 (31:36):
A great job? In that piece, go read that piece
because it's a really interesting take. Why is homophobia the
only prejudice that still kind of exists?
Speaker 1 (31:44):
I would just say this, we don't know that that's
the case, and I would assume that it's surely not
the case. And about good guy or redeeming Seth, I
don't believe that they're redeeming Seth at all, although I
do feel that his apology was somewhatson here we can
disagree about that. I think Jackson is a realist, socialist city.
(32:09):
What I mean by that is, I'm past the point
of my life where I feel like, you know, what
we should do is get rid of all the racists
and all the homophobes and exile them to racist HOMOPHOBI
isolin and I don't think we're ever getting rid of them,
But I do think what I do think is doable
is to forcefully, from the top, from leadership, repress their
(32:32):
ideology and make it clear this is not cool. You
don't do this. I don't care what you think in
your head, but as soon as it comes out, then
it's our business. You stop this and make it clear
to everybody this is over the line. That's how you
live together, not by getting rid of everybody who doesn't
agree with you, even though I agree like I would
(32:53):
love to do that hypothetically, but like hypothetically I would
love to be like all you know, like get them
all out. But then where is the line like and
how you know you you get into the do we
need this person? Do they have a skill whatever?
Speaker 2 (33:10):
Liket like in a way, it's like police because you don't.
Speaker 3 (33:12):
Right to me.
Speaker 1 (33:14):
To me, the way that you build a more a
real like equal, egalitarian society is you you repress those ideologies.
Every time it pops up, you smack it down, as
Maria does, make him fucking apologize, make it clear to
him we're not standing for this now. I'm sure that
(33:36):
while that was a kind of slap on the wrist,
although like a council member comes and talks to Seth,
and I think it's notable that Seth is not on
the council and I don't think wouldever be able to
make his way to the council in that group, right. So,
to me, it's not that they're redeeming Seth or quote
making him a good guy. It's that they're showing a
(33:59):
way to live with chi racism, homophobia, different kinds of
biases that are a part of life. How you cope
with that is you make it clear that it's unacceptable
at every time. It pops up because it will. It
simply will pop up, and you smack it down every
time it comes up. And so I appreciated this take
on it. I didn't think like Set's a good guy
(34:20):
now and Ellie and Seth they're gonna go walking hand
in hand like through the streets of Jackson and everybody
likes Seth now, or that they accept what he said
and think it's cool. I think they made it very
clear to him that they think it's uncool what he did,
and maybe if he keeps doing it, they would exile him.
But I think that this is I thought that this
was like a realistic way of looking at it. And
(34:41):
I would also say, vis a vis like other biases,
we've only seen Jackson, well.
Speaker 3 (34:45):
I was gonna say this is.
Speaker 2 (34:47):
I will say this is actually also, I think, ironically
a good argument for why we haven't seen it, but
also a good argument for why some people found the
set thing maybe like stoehorned in or quick or like
too easily resolved. There's only seven episodes in the show. Yeah,
that's right, So it's so I think the shortness of
the show and the lack of maybe being able to
(35:09):
build on some of those things that we are talking
about on both sides has made it like this and
in a kind of discourse, inspiring conversation. I agree, but yeah,
I'm I'm interested to see. I don't I don't love
like Ellie shaking his hand. I'm like, give Dina the
handshake first of all, because like she sorted this out,
my guy. But it's it's it's fine. You know what.
(35:31):
Sometimes TV is on the nose, is a little bit
on the nose. But we also need Ellie to get
those guns because another change here that we know people
have been talking about is Tommy not Tommy not being
the one who goes to Seattle on this kind of
tear and they have to go after him to get
him back. So we have to find a way for
that to happen. That's a pivotal moment this episode. How
do you feel about the.
Speaker 1 (35:51):
Tommy change, the Tommy thing. I don't care. It makes
complete sense that his character in this show would not
go he's on the council. It would make it I'm
the worst guy, it would make him a worse person
to me.
Speaker 2 (36:03):
Tommy's whole journey in this show is like how he
has grown past the patterns that had sustained him and
jol for so long, and how he is spent time
essentially building this town, building this community so that people
can be safe, almost as a way of making up
for the things that they did, you know, early on
(36:23):
after Sarah's death. And I think that I love this
version of Tommy, and I don't think this version of
Tommy as we know him would leave Maria, or leave
his child, or leave his town. Where we really see
in this episode he is that leader that they need,
even in a way maybe taking over from Maria, who
in season one definitely felt more like she was in
(36:46):
that role. Now Tommy is much more of this kind
of paternal father figure, fixing things, making sure people stay
in line. He uses that darkness that is inside him
and Joel, but here he is channeling it into something
where he can keep you safe. And I think if
he had just run off, it would have been shocking
and it would have been heartbreaking, but I don't know
(37:06):
that it would have been true to the character as
he is in this show. So I'm fine with this
because Ellie definitely would go after I feel this.
Speaker 1 (37:14):
I feel the same way. Listen, He's on the council,
he's going a wife and kids. I think I think
it would be a I think it would hurt the
town in a way if as part of the council
that had voted we're not sending anybody. He then broke
that social contract and went that.
Speaker 3 (37:33):
Could take the whole town down.
Speaker 2 (37:35):
Let's be real, because then you say, well, what's the point.
Speaker 1 (37:38):
And abandon his wife and kids. I just I think
one I think he will follow him there. I think
that that is a change.
Speaker 2 (37:46):
I don't think that we're going to end up in
a situation where Tommy doesn't end up in Seattle. That's
also I think this is more believable. Now the child,
the subrogate child that your brother raised after you tube
couldn't save his daughter, your niece, Now she has gone
and you don't want her, as established through the conversation
with Gail, to follow him on that path.
Speaker 3 (38:07):
So now they've gone, you can.
Speaker 2 (38:10):
Be part of a conversation with the town where you
don't have to give up sixteen people, but maybe just
a group of three or four can go with Tommy.
There is a way that makes it make sense. And
I do think let's talk a little bit about adaptation, Jason,
because I loved the point you made about how rare
a great video game adaptation is, and I think that
is a big point here. There is a lot of
conversation this season, I feel, more so, maybe even than
(38:33):
the first season, about adaptation and changing from the game
and the beats people really loved in the game not
necessarily playing out the same way. And you just made
a really great point before we got a mic about
why you think that might be happening.
Speaker 1 (38:45):
Yeah, I mean, I find it. I find the conversation interesting,
but also when it turns really negative, I find it
really wearying. And I think it's I think it's because
all other types of media, magazines, newspapers, whatever, have comics right,
have been adapted for movies and television for decades and
(39:07):
decades and decades, and we're used to the language of that,
the shape that takes, the kind of trade offs that
happen when a comic, book or whatever goes from its
original form to a television or movie. And I think
this being really a pioneering video game adaptation in so
(39:28):
many ways, like the first prestige video game adaptation, you know,
like of this.
Speaker 2 (39:35):
Gly acclaimed video game adaptation on TV. I mean, look,
at what we have in the past and needs. Look,
you all know I love many of these movies. N
you know, Nineties Street Fire, you know, the Doom video game,
the Doom video game adaptation, Oh.
Speaker 3 (39:50):
My god, I yeah, I like the Rocks like a little.
Speaker 2 (39:53):
Bit Doom too.
Speaker 3 (39:54):
But I love the original nineties More or Combat.
Speaker 2 (39:57):
But none of those movies were out here making huge
swings and critically acclaimed, award winning performances that was not
the conversation that was being had around.
Speaker 1 (40:08):
There, or or were coming from an original source material
game that had as strong a story as the last
of them.
Speaker 2 (40:16):
It was also so cinematically yes inspired, which I think
changes it.
Speaker 1 (40:21):
I think that the video game audience is just not
used to something coming from their world and being adapted
to the screen. I think it's this is a very new.
Speaker 2 (40:34):
I think you're right. And also I think like for
people like who love comic books and this maybe UH
is speaking to you guys who listen to podcasts, because
I know we have so many die out comic book heads.
But maybe you don't realize this because you're not. But
like for example, Avengers Infinity War or whatever, it's nothing
like the comics like you, I can't even tell you
(40:55):
how different it is, like the different characters, the different
you know, we were talking our favorite comics.
Speaker 3 (41:00):
You'll know, know Adam Warlock.
Speaker 2 (41:02):
Like, there's so many changes that we are used to
adaptations that are more about adapting vibes or moments or beats.
Speaker 3 (41:10):
This is a pretty direct adaptation.
Speaker 2 (41:12):
But to make it entertaining for TV viewers who have
not who have not played the game or watched the
playthrough of the game, who have not necessarily have any
experience of these characters outside of what we see here,
it still needs to be true to them. And I
think that this choice, specifically with Tommy is very true
to who he is and makes a lot of sense.
(41:33):
So I'm interested to see where they go next with it.
But I think you're right, there's no way he doesn't
end up in Seattle at some point.
Speaker 1 (41:39):
So they head off. And by the way, with regards
to handshakes, here's my issue. No handshake for Dina. No,
have you ever shaken someone's hand that's going on a
journey and there's a person who's going on the journey
with them, who's standing right next to them, and you
don't shake them too.
Speaker 2 (41:58):
She was also called the slow Yeah, he also suck. Also,
she's the one who's organized this set, so I'm like,
what's going on that? But you know, I mean they
want to Yeah, I appreciate it anyway, Yeah, they and
then they stop at the graveyard, which I just I
love this moment so much.
Speaker 1 (42:16):
I guess the crime and Ellie, oh my god, beautifulish.
The shooting was so beautiful. The cinematography here Ellie drops
some coffee beans from that uh you know, call back
to the season one exchange when Joel Ellie sip some
coffee and she's.
Speaker 2 (42:33):
Like taste like, you know, a bunch shit or whatever
she says, and he just drinks more of an episode four.
I thought that was so cute.
Speaker 1 (42:40):
That was so beautiful, and you know, I wanted to say,
like the the cinematography here was so good. There's so Yeah,
there's a lot of shows that I'm watching or have
watched recently that I'm sure Joel will resonate with this
are so fucking dark, I mean visual dark that even
(43:01):
when the scenes are taking place outside what was the
Jake Jillen hall uh Presumed Innocent presumed it. The adaptation
of Presumed Innocent looked like it was shot at night.
The highlights are so taken down, and so what I
loved about this, this scene from the Last of Us
is that they did do that. They squashed the highlights,
(43:24):
but they did it because the sun was in the background.
It's like silhouetting the characters, and it worked. I hate
the way that looks when the sun is not in
the frame. This it's just like, you know, bright's full
noon sunlight like coming down very evenly, and then you
squash all the highlights. So I'm like, is it night?
Speaker 2 (43:44):
Is it day? You got to be like a Jordan
Peele levelen note to be able to get away.
Speaker 1 (43:48):
And so I just just like really appreciate how beautiful
this looks.
Speaker 2 (43:51):
Anyway, especially because I have to anytime I watch something
with Dolby Vision, I won't name streamers. I literally have
a hat I have to do through my Roku to
ton the Dolby vision off because it looks so dark
on my TV. So yes, I appreciate the beautiful lighting
and incredible cinematic vision that the cinematographer and lighting crew
(44:12):
and gaffer and everyone else get on the chow.
Speaker 1 (44:14):
They passed the time just naming musicians according to letters
the kind of old game that m h. Ellie had
been playing for many years. Dina keeps wanting, wanting to
She's basically using this as a way to like pump
Ellie for more and more and get to know her,
get to know her right, which Ellie is for as
(44:35):
fond as she is of Dina is not used to
letting people in. So Dina asks about the first person
Ellie killed, which Ellie is like, that's really fucked up,
and I don't want to talk about that.
Speaker 2 (44:45):
We know about my first lesbian lover who I had
to kill, but.
Speaker 1 (44:52):
I'll tell you about the second one, which was the
the young man in Oklahoma City when Joel and Ellie
were on the the kid got a hold of Jewel
and Ellie killed him. They then go into the camp
out under an outcrop because Dina must have a broken
leg or something that she could she can feel the
(45:15):
rain coming, and you know, Ellie's like, how did you
do that? She's like, I'm a witch. And it's clear
that probably both of them want to keep talking, but
they're just gonna It's very real. It's very real.
Speaker 2 (45:29):
It's like there's always the jokes about like queer women
and lesbians and stuff about how they like. They'll be like,
does this person have a crush from me? All they
flying and at the same time the other person is
thinking the same thing. This is very real to that experience.
Speaker 1 (45:42):
So they turn off the lights. But then Dina's like, actually,
I want to keep talking. I want to talk about
the kiss and when do you rate it? And so
this was Dina's first sapphic experience, and Ellie is more experienced,
somewhat more experienced, So what's the rating? Ellie gives a
six solid definitely lying, definitely lying, but like a tough number.
Speaker 2 (46:05):
I know, she's such a bit sometimes, man, I love her.
Speaker 1 (46:09):
And Dina says that, in fact, did go back to Jesse,
so we are in a situationship or whatever again the case.
Maybe Ellie seems sad about that, And then Dina's like,
does just Jesse ever strike he was sad? And She's like,
I think he just might be a sad person, which
I'm like, Dina, Babe, look around.
Speaker 3 (46:30):
Everyone's sad, babe. Everyone you're you're living in a bad time.
Speaker 1 (46:34):
At age nineteen or fifteen or whatever, it is absolutely
normal to ask somebody like so, who was the first
person you get.
Speaker 2 (46:42):
Killed exactly, this is what this is the life we live, right.
I thought it was really interesting because she said, she said,
you know, do you ever think he's sad? And then
she goes, I think he just might be a sad person,
and Ellie said, well, why do you think that? And
I thought Dina was gonna say because otherwise, like he
must have gone through something like we've been through like these,
but she says otherwise it must just be me. And
(47:04):
I thought that was a very interesting telling kind of
feeling about how Dina sees herself and again maybe how
sheltered she's been in Jackson, because I'm guessing the reason
he's sad is because he's probably like killed fifty people
and lived in this way.
Speaker 1 (47:18):
I snus pressed, I mean it should be Dina. Dina's
pretty rad, you know, like yeah.
Speaker 2 (47:24):
That also as well. Guess what.
Speaker 3 (47:25):
My funniest thought wasn't even about the zombie pop.
Speaker 2 (47:28):
I was like, maybe it's just depressed, Like I'm depressed,
not living in a zombie apocalypse, so like maybe he
just has depression. But yeah, great combo. I felt like
it told a lot. There was so much tension there.
I definitely expected it to go in a different way.
But I love how they're kind of holding off on
whatever's to come with these two. I thought it was
really effective.
Speaker 1 (47:48):
Let's take a quick break over.
Speaker 2 (48:04):
It's the next day.
Speaker 1 (48:06):
They are on the trail. They're just outside of Seattle.
They come across the bodies of the Seraphytes on that
trail from the earlier scene, and it's horrible. There's been
a gunfight, lots of different caliber of bullets around. From
what the Seraphytes said, it was probably the wolves that
(48:27):
did this. Yeah, and by Abby's group.
Speaker 2 (48:30):
I like that Ellie works out. She's like, they're different calibers,
so this probably isn't Fedra because they're basically usually using
the same weapons. I also thought this was really again
a great hint at how prepared Dina is for this mission,
because she finds the dead body of the good Little
Girl and she pukes.
Speaker 3 (48:50):
Now, obviously that is horrific, terrible thing to see. Even
Ellie is shaken by it.
Speaker 2 (48:56):
But again, I think we start to see Dina realizing
that the outside is where more scary and violent than
you could imagine.
Speaker 1 (49:05):
So they follow the highway and they get within sight
of the city Seattle, there and that.
Speaker 2 (49:10):
Like looks really quiet, probably not a problem. They're like,
think that might maybe they're smaller than we thought, which I.
Speaker 1 (49:15):
Low Manny in a lookout post, kind of not doing
his job. He gets a call on the radio saying, hey,
are we clear to move the patrol up to the
next checkpoint. He looks through his binoculars and he says, yes,
clear to move up. And then we see that patrol,
and the patrol is like three armored vehicles with fifty
(49:36):
caliber machine guns mounted on top, followed by like, I
don't know, fifty sixty eighty dismounted heavily armed infantry.
Speaker 2 (49:45):
Like like at least I was like, maybe it's one hundred.
Speaker 1 (49:49):
And it's a lot.
Speaker 2 (49:50):
It's a lot, And this is very interesting. I think
that the posing of how we're meeting the WLF compared
to how I'm meeting the Seraphytes is very interesting. I
also loved like that they kept the Seraphyites looking like
Robin Hood and his merry men, which I always thought
was like really interesting kind of traditionists, like they kind
of don't want to go back to the future, compared
(50:11):
to this very heavy armor, armored and militarized WLF. Yes,
I would also say if you watched If you haven't
watched this episode, but you love to listen to our recaps,
this is definitely a less scary episode of the Last
of Us, you could try it out. But I will
also say do if you have watched it, yeah, are
(50:32):
you're gonna watch? Don't watch the coming next because I
found that there's like a ten minute coming next and
I found it to be extreme. And I understand maybe
they're worried about people not keeping up with the show.
Now we've lost our darling, you know, Pedro Pascal, who
we all love so much. But I accidentally kind of
(50:52):
started playing when I was doing my rewatch and I
was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. I was like,
this is crazy, So keep an eye out for that.
But yeah, Jason, what do you think of this episod?
How are you feeling about it.
Speaker 1 (51:02):
That I think that this is I think this show
is really good, continues to be really good. I think
that there's so much to think about and talk about,
Like with this, I think that they've done a great
job of to be frank like, I found it wearying
to I found the last of us to the game.
(51:23):
The incessant violence, I find I found it like numbing.
And I think that the characterizations, you know, the writing,
the wonderful performances here have breathed flesh and blood and
emotion into these characters that is beyond just bloodlust and revenge. Yeah,
(51:44):
and I know that that stuff is there, you know,
particularly in the DLC, in the but I agree with
whatever I think that. I think that there's different aspects
of these characters that have come to the surface, and
in particular in this episode, there's so much to think about,
and I'm just really for.
Speaker 2 (52:00):
Me, it definitely wasn't like I was not exaggerating when
I said like it was. I was dreading watching this
after the last episode. I was like, I don't want
to feel that relentless sadness and horror and just depression.
But I felt like the change of scenery, the cinematography,
the mix of the kind of nature with as a
contrast to Jackson, and the interactions between Dina and Ellie
(52:25):
and kind of the addition of this Tommy and Gaye conversation,
I felt like they were, Yeah, they were doing a
lot more emotionally to kind of keep you connected, rather
than this kind of blood lust that the original game
definitely leaned into.
Speaker 1 (52:40):
In the next few episodes of X ray Vision, we
are recapping episodes four, five, and six of and Or
on Tuesday. We're prepping for Thunderbolts with the MCU in
comics history of the main characters on Thursday, and then
back to and Or with our roundtable with our super
producers on Friday. And then Monday, we're reacting to the
Thunderbolts movie. Yeah it's here, folks. That's it for this episode.
(53:02):
Next were listening bye. X ray Vision is hosted by
Jason Sepsion.
Speaker 2 (53:08):
And Rosie Knight and is a production of iHeart Podcasts.
Our executive producers are Joel Monique and Aaron Kaufman.
Speaker 1 (53:15):
Our supervising producer is Abu Zafar.
Speaker 2 (53:17):
Our producers are Common Laurent Dean Jonathan and Bay wag.
Speaker 1 (53:21):
Our theme song is by Brian Vasquez, with alternate theme
songs by Aaron Kaufman.
Speaker 2 (53:26):
Special thanks to Soul Rubin, Chris Lord, Kenny Goodman, and
Heidi our discord moderator
Warning. Today's episode k Dad spoilers for season two episode
three of the Last of Us. You have been warned.
Watch it, watch it, watch it.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Hello.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
I am Jason Concepcion and I'm Merday Night and welcome
back to x ray Vision of the podcast where we
dive deep busier, favorite shows, movies, comics of pop culture
coming to you from my art podcast. We'll we'll bring
you three episodes a week every Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday and News.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
And in today's episode, we are talking about the Last
of Us Season two episode three, the past.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
Have you been dreading watching this episode?
Speaker 2 (00:48):
I was dreading it. It was it was tough off
the last last episode. Every episode, I'm dreading every episode.
But it's another really interesting, thought provoking, discourse inducing episode.
And let's talk about it because there's a lot to
talk about.
Speaker 1 (01:06):
Okay, Episode three we open following the events of episode two.
Jackson is still on fire. There's still bodies in the street.
The town looks like it's taken a real hit. I
don't know how many dead, but I would imagine it's
in the dozens.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
Definitely looks like you're talking about scores of people. I'm saying, would.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
You say live in Jackson two thousand, three thousand.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
Yeah, maybe like with all the refugees. And I feel
like if that's the case, then we're talking about we
definitely lost like hundreds because it looked like a lot
of people.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
Yeah, like a large percentage surely of what is I
would say, like ten.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
Percent Jackson is it looks like it lost.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
Tommy Is goes to see his brother's body and is
washing it uh to say goodbye as they prepare to
bury him. The halls of the clinic are packed with
just all kinds of people who are injured, who need attention,
who have been shot in friendly fire incidents, whatever. Ellie
(02:12):
is just coming to after sedation. She's undergone surgery because
I guess she broke it seems like she had collapsed
lung and maybe some kind.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
Of broken rib from where Manny kicked her.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
Yeah, And as she wakes up the trauma, the reality
of what has occurred, the fact that she watched Joel
get murdered in front of her, hits her and she
starts screaming. We skip forward some months or weeks.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
Yeah, unclear, but her hair is a bit longer, so
I think that's off the ground. Months a couple of months.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
The leaves are on the trees. Jesse and Tommy are
like pounding steaks in as they rebuild. Tommy has to
take the take the sledgehammer because Jesse has to take
the sledgehammer for Tommy because Tommy's old.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
Now yeah, I know, and Jesse's like, he's like the new,
the general. And also you can tell that Tommy is
he's given, he's feeling some probably love towards Jesse. Now
their you know, Joel is gone. I think you can
see that that connection is there. Also Jesse showing off
those arms, showing off those muscles, they're like, they're like,
(03:16):
this is the thirty second shot of a man hammering
a stake into the ground. If that's your kind of thing.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
A doctor is a tests Ellie to make sure her
breathing's okay, all that stuff, her lung volume is good,
and then but what about her mind? Your her body
is healed, but what are her mind? Gail comes in,
Gail the town's only therapist, uh, which we confirm here
she really is and she really is, she confirms it.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
I'm like, Gail, teach someone, you could train them.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
You need to offload some of this Ellie is typically
prickly in a cerbic towards Gail, does not want to
really go through this process, tries to rush through it.
Gail is like, okay, talk about New Year's Eve, the
last when was the last time you and Joel spoke?
And she talks about the fact that that was the
last time, in that she saw him on his porch
(04:11):
New Year's Eve and then did not speak to him.
She wishes she spoke to him, and then Gail in
what I can only describe as a complete rupture of therapist,
a shocking rupture of therapy ethics that I listen, I
get it. It's the post apocalypse is a different world,
(04:33):
but this is not how it should be. Gail then
is like, hey, so when I was working with Joel,
Joel mentioned that he wronged you in some way, and
he like, maybe in a bad way. Do you know
what he was talking about? Which, again, I don't think
you should be talking about your patients with other.
Speaker 2 (04:50):
People, and you are supposed to keep that secret off
to somebody dies you want. Knowing that does not change Gail.
I al, I'm very interested in this interaction too, because
one Ellie has clearly been seeing Gail long enough that
she knows how to play the game. She knows what
she's supposed to say. Gail knows Ellie is only playing
(05:11):
the game. So why does Gail bring up this notion
of how Joel Ronka Is that? Because Gail wants to
find a reason to feel like her hate of Joel
is justified. Like I'm interested in that because the reality is,
it doesn't really matter what Joel did now, because Joel's
dead and Ellie is not.
Speaker 1 (05:31):
Like now, maybe there's like a frame that you could
use right where Gail is thinking, if Joel did something
that really was traumatizing towards Ellie, she being my patient,
I should we should talk about it. But I don't
think you would say that Joel told me this. I
think you would try and dig around right anyway, Gail.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
Yeah, Gail, drink and smoking all day and then go
in and tell people about their problem was like, come on, babe,
But Katine O'Hara, you're a queen.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
Now, if I think again, The look on Ellie's face
tells me that she suspects she knows what Joel is
talking about. Because I think most certainly because I think
you and I are on the same page that Ellie
knows that.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
So we don't know yet, and we may find this
out via flashback whether Joel ever told Tommy what happened.
We know he did tell him in the game, So
I also wonder if they're translating that part of it
to the fact that Joel did at some point admit
to Ellie that her suspicions were correct.
Speaker 3 (06:42):
So I'm interested to find out how that goes.
Speaker 2 (06:45):
But Ellie definitely knows, and in this moment, she is
really like playing Gail, and Gail knows it because Ellie's like,
I guess I'll just have to work through this. I'm
gonna have to let myself off the hook, and she's
saying all the right therapy things, but we know that
inside she is just fucking burning with righteous fury about
what happened.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
Ellie is released. She goes to Joel's house. There's flowers
the yard. People have been paying their respects the weeks
that have passed. She goes through his empty house, his
empty bedroom. She finds a red box on his bed.
It's got his watch and his gigantic revolver in it.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
Oh my god, He's like all right, like an Eastwood
like like like a cowboy, like a fallen cowboy.
Speaker 1 (07:31):
She hugs his jacket, which, oh man, I was tearing up.
That was tearing up. That is That's one of those
tropes that gets me every time.
Speaker 3 (07:42):
Me too, because I do think it's like.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
I think it's a thing people do.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
You definitely a thing.
Speaker 4 (07:47):
People do, and also as well, just like a weird
kind of unacknowledged universal truth of like we are, you know,
we are connected to scents and the way people smell
and neck clothes and the way people feel.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
It's this little, tiny kind of texture of life. And
I think the reason it is a trope is because
I think it is true, you know. And I think
in that moment also Bella Ramsey just you are absolutely
killing it. Like I love this episode for you. It's
so good. I love the way the play that Ellie
has with Gail and this kind of conversation which will
(08:20):
come into play later in the episode when Gail says
something very interesting in my opinion, and I just think,
then the moment when Ellie walks out of the hospital
and it's just this kind of close up dolly shot
of her face as everything else behind her is kind
of blurry and you see the real troop of how
Ellie's feeling. Just a powerhouse powerhouse performance from Bella Ramsey.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
Dina comes over, Ellie drives her eyes and goes to
meet her in the dining room, trying to act normal,
which Ellie, there's no reason to pretend like you are
not shattered by this. I think we all get it,
Like you don't need to do that. But Dina brings
cookies like this kind of piece off ring and says,
I'm bringing these cookies because I'm about to make you angry.
(09:03):
And basically she tells her that she's knows who the
killers are and knows where they're from. Ellie is mad
because she's like, you cost us time you let them
get away. It makes a great point that like it's
a great point. We're weak now, we're not even the
walls are not rebuilt. People are dead. There's a lot
(09:25):
to sort out here. And in the days that followed
Joel's death, we were in no state to go chasing.
Speaker 2 (09:30):
Him after that. And also Ellie would have never recovered
and would have pulled the tubes out of her arms
and just like gone with the broken rib and died,
you know, and Also I love Dina coming to Ellie
with almost like a strategy point here as well, because
she says to She's like, and if you know where
somebody's going, I do, then why follow them? Why not
(09:52):
just meet them where they are? Yeah? If now they
were going at the end of the episode, So maybe
that was not the best idea, but but I loved
his mindset and I think that wins Ellie over. And
obviously the cookies are also delicious.
Speaker 1 (10:05):
So she tells Ellie the names, and of course Ellie
is most interested in the girl with the ponytail, Abbey,
and they're from the Washington Liberation Front that their little
logo is a wolf's head, one of the kind of
multiple splinter groups that had been opposing FEDRA in recent years,
(10:27):
and they're based out of Seattle, and Dina thinks wrongly
that they're probably small enough for.
Speaker 5 (10:37):
Them to handle understandable often understanding what she's still because
the truth is the group that we met, yeah, they
kind of had a militia e vibe, but they did
seem like a road group.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
Abby was not a great leader. It was all very
emotionally driven and there was a brutality there that spoke
to kind of a lone wolf survival effort of the group.
Speaker 3 (10:58):
So I understand what they was thinking.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
But the fact they have a logo, I feel like
that's like, that's where I'm at. I'm like, babe, if
you have a logo, that's a graphic designer in the
team to have a logo, Like, that's where I'm at.
Speaker 1 (11:14):
Like if they if you have patches, they're built up.
What are you talking about?
Speaker 2 (11:20):
What you got.
Speaker 1 (11:22):
On? They've got a sewing department.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
It's not they literally like had to get someone who
knew how to embroider to make the patches, to make
along the patches. It's not like it's a school logo
that they have reappropriated.
Speaker 1 (11:35):
This is right scribbled, you know. It's not like the
surafights and it's like somebody exactly they found like you know,
like no, this is stitched. It's like I could go
on atsy right now and buy that dolls.
Speaker 3 (11:51):
Literally.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
Also, something I do love is this and I think
this is something that maybe annoys viewers or whatever, but
I felt this in the game too, And I feel
like they sum it up in the show is like
Dina and Ellie are teenagers. They're still teenagers. They're kind
of dumb, like that's just normal teenagers do this stuff,
so I think, and especially someone like Dina who has
(12:12):
lived in Jackson and really has like a little overcome,
a little over confident, and especially in as Dina reminds Ellie,
like Dina loved Joel too, so she is also probably
you know, Joel was almost like a superhero in this world,
like not necessarily morally, but like what he could withstand.
And I think that adds to the the overconfidence. So
(12:36):
you know, then, yeah, I thought it's believable. But hilariously,
I was like, no, if they've got as confident the
Personalyptic design team, don't go stea. Jackson doesn't even have
like a patch. It doesn't even have like well anyway
everything else.
Speaker 1 (12:55):
Yeah, the girls pitched Tommy on you know, getting a
Posse together revenge mission. He makes basically the same points
that Dina made earlier, which is Towns Week were not ready.
Ellie tries to lecture Tommy, which I thought was this
is a great moment for Tommy, who basically says, listen,
that's my brother. Don't try to act or present yourself
(13:18):
as someone who knows my brother better than I do stop.
Speaker 2 (13:20):
Because also they live like it's it's easy to forget
for Ellie who like a quarter of her life has
been with Joel or whatever, maybe almost half of it now. Yeah,
but like Joel and Tommy were together for decades, you know,
they grew up together, they lived together before, they lived together,
through they separated, they came back together. And I love
it because I think that it's such a beautiful moment
(13:46):
where you still get this kindness and empathy from Tommy
where he doesn't like hammer it home in some horrible way.
He just kind of gives her the reminder of like,
let's not pretend he's not my brother.
Speaker 1 (13:59):
There's respect there where Ellie's like, okay, you got me
on that. Yeah, and he says, listen, we'll put it
up for a vote in front of this council. Ellie's like, fuck, yes,
the council. That's the way we do things here in Jackson.
So sorry, and Tommy then warns Dina, you hold out
on Ellie, fine, because she would have ripped the tube
(14:20):
to your point, yeah, Rosie, she would have rip the
tubes out and tried to go. But you tell me
when you have that information.
Speaker 3 (14:26):
And honestly, she should have told Tommy.
Speaker 2 (14:29):
But also I think she could have also argued a
similar thing of and we'll get to this because it's
been a very big conversation point on the internet. But
like if Dina could have made the argument that if
she'd have told Tommy early, he might not still be
in Jackson now, and I think Jackson needs Tommy. But
obviously that will come into play as we as we
(14:49):
converse later.
Speaker 1 (14:51):
So he tells Ellie where Joel and the rest are buried,
about ten miles outside of the city, and she says,
I'll pay my respects on the way Seattle. We go
to the woods somewhere on the trail to Seattle. The
serophytes say, okay, the scars wow. Our first meeting with them.
They communicate just like in the game, via whistles as
(15:13):
they walk the trail, the distinctive scars on their cheeks.
The cult is migrating. They're moving somewhere to separate themselves
from the dangers that exist in the area. They follow
the teachings of a dead prophet. They're talking about it.
(15:34):
This older gentleman is talking about it with this young
girl and he lets her hold a hammer, which is
one of their signature weapons, and then there's a warning
whistle from down the trail and the cult dives into
the trees away.
Speaker 2 (15:45):
I thought this was an interesting introduction to the Teraphytes
because usually, like in the game, they are this really brutal,
antagonistic force. Obviously, the hammers there's a lot of sacrificial creepiness,
very cult vibes.
Speaker 3 (15:58):
But I think the introduction of the.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
Child, even with her excitement to have the hammer and
her excitement for what is clearly violence, this is a
very humanizing introduction, especially with what goes on next, So
I'm very interested to see how they expand on that
as we move towards the rest of the season.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
We go back to Jackson. Jesse is getting Ellie back
into fighting shape. He wants to make sure that her
injured side, the right side, is strong enough for her
to fight somebody or maybe multiple people. Jesse's on the
council now and Ellie asks another ethics violation.
Speaker 2 (16:37):
And luckily Jesse is a real one. He's at the
segu Jesse. Thanks, Jesse, show us well I should be
living that's.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
Right, integrity and morality and government. It is so refreshing
to see this Ellie is like, hey, can I count
on your vote? And Jesse's like, you know, I can't discuss.
Speaker 3 (16:57):
He's absolutely not like that does make any sense.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
And then which I again I much respect to Jesse,
and then gives her a good tip, which is, don't
come off angry.
Speaker 3 (17:07):
Don't come off they're gonna vote for angry.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
Yeah, nobody's gonna follow you down the trail of a
revenge mission that they might not come back from.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
Also, I thought it was really cool to see Ellie training.
And also I thought there was some very interesting kind
of the way it was shot and showing how cut
Bella actually is and kind of a little bit more
of a throwback to what people might have expected Abby
to look like. I think there's some very interesting stuff
going on there. And yeah, I am I'm a Jesse fan.
(17:34):
I'm saying just stay stay in your weird like love
triangle with Jesse. It's all gonna be okay. Do not
go to Seattle. Stay in Jackson. Jesse will look after you, guys,
He'll teach you how to fight. It's gonna be okay.
Don't go. Don't go, guys.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
We go to the council meeting. They're trying to burn
through their schedule to get through the jowel thing that
they're getting hung up on. Oh, you know, chickens versus turkeys.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
I want to say this is a true representation of
local representations. I also want to say thank you to
our discord who very politely let me know that the
Council of Jackson Hole, where we saw them telling off
Dina and Ellie one time, that was probably already built.
They didn't spend their time building it. Okay, I get it,
(18:22):
but I will.
Speaker 3 (18:23):
Say this was unbelievable.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
When he starts talking about he's like, you know, corn
is not the most delicious crop, but it is the fastest,
and like, that's what I really want to come in
today to talk to you about. And they're like please,
everyone else is here for this one specific reason. And
he's like, I don't care about that.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
That's it's like it's correct, Yeah, real life, real life.
Another speaker gets up, Rachel. She speaks against the POSSE,
I think, making good points that the towns sixteen is
a lot of people to spare right now, that might
be they might have lost sixteen people or probably more
(19:00):
honestly in the in the fight and to send another sixteen.
You don't know if they're coming back at this stage.
I tend to agree that it's I.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
Agree, I think sixteen.
Speaker 3 (19:10):
When they said that, I was.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
Like, whoa.
Speaker 3 (19:11):
And also as well, I think the other thing that
she makes.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
Us sources and you know, and the whole thing.
Speaker 2 (19:17):
I think what she makes a really good point about here.
That again, I think is one of the things this
show does really well. And we talked about it last
episode is like where are empathy and focus is on?
This show comes from where the framing is. We love Ellie,
we love Joel, but but but but but, as Rachel
(19:37):
points out, like she lost her sister, so many people
were lost in this. Why do we have to put
the town at risk for one man?
Speaker 1 (19:45):
Like?
Speaker 2 (19:45):
And I think that is what Tommy understands and what
Maria understands, And that's why you have to come to
the council because everybody lost something, yea, and actually.
Speaker 1 (19:54):
Everybody it makes good everybody makes good point.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
Does this push Jackson forward in a way that is
good for everybody?
Speaker 1 (20:02):
Right? Carlile then gets up and makes a turn the
other cheek pitch, basically saying, hey, if you know, break
the cycle of violence? This is what breaking the cycle
of violence is. Seth gets up and yells at him
and is basically saying, you know, they don't deserve our mercy,
and Carlo makes a good point that that's why it's mercy,
and then Seth basically gives a fuck them, kill them
all speech, like like they came here, they took one
(20:25):
of ours, we have to strike back. Ellie then makes
her speech, and I think it's good and I think
she makes some good points that.
Speaker 2 (20:33):
Really stuck you because it did a really good job
like priming her, like write it down, don't get dress.
Just before we get to Ellie, though, I do want
to say I think this is such a good interaction
between Carlyle and Seth because Carlyle is arguing for the
very thing that allows Seth to still be in yes group.
That's a great point, hey, break the cycle of violence,
(20:54):
Like Maria is gonna get you to apologize to this person,
forgive and be forgiven. That has worked for Jackson on
a small scale, so why wouldn't they do that with this?
I will also say, hilariously, Seth makes a good argument
where he's basically like, oh, if you don't kill them,
they're going to come back. They're going to be raiders.
They're going to do this again and again. I don't
(21:14):
know if he believes it. I think he is trying
to stick up for Ane, and I don't know if
I believe it. But the funny thing is, ironically, in
this case, Carlile is definitely right because, as we will
find out, it doesn't matter Set. They could take Jackson
Hole if they wanted. That's what we learned like that,
so that doesn't matter. You can't scare them out of it.
(21:35):
But I found this to be a very interesting kind
of interior look at how Jackson Hole has survived and
whether or not this will help it survive.
Speaker 1 (21:44):
Ellie then makes her a speech and she, I think
very wisely reframes sets, fuck him, kill them all angle
in a more familial way, framing it as an act
of justice and familiar love, basically saying like, if one
of you is hurt, I will go to the ends
(22:05):
of the earth to get justice. And this is where like,
I'm more looking at the how fucked up the town
is I was, I'm more I definitely lean Rachel and Carlisle.
That said, I do think that there is something in
the way Ellie and even Set's point of view that
(22:26):
says that is a bond in the community that says, hey,
if something wrong, if someone wrongs you, something happens to
you from outside this community, we are going to seek redress. Yeah,
that is the because you're asking all these people all
the time to risk their lives, not just for citizenship
(22:48):
in this inside the safe walls and the confines of
this place, but they have to go outside of them
and do all these things that are very dangerous and risky.
And I think part of building those bonds is the
understanding that the other people here have your back and
if something happens, you know, your kids, the people who
(23:10):
love you, are going to be strengthened by the notion
that the town will seek justice. So I thought this
was strong.
Speaker 2 (23:18):
I thought Ellie did a really good job here. It's
a really interesting argument. I think she's right about the
idea of it being about justice over revenge, and obviously
we know Ellie wants revenge, but I think it's an
interesting framing. Second, I also think, like, well, you know Ellie,
we know her really you Well, that's the thing is
like Ellie is lying her ass off.
Speaker 1 (23:39):
She's very good speech.
Speaker 2 (23:41):
Sometimes you actually like she is lying for the great
she does believe it's for the greater good. Like the
way she's arguing it, she meants into the framework of
Jackson Like she's not making a null and void point.
You know, I agree with you, and I think something
else that's interesting is otherwise and I love like I'm
(24:02):
definitely a Carlyle in real life, you know, I dream
of a like noncstoral state where we can all believe
in each other. But in the world of the Last
of Us in the zombie apocalypse, is it realistic that
you think that Jackson Hole can survive simply by always
forgiving those people who do you wrong. I don't know
if that eventually is really going to keep you safe.
(24:24):
You know, I think that there is a reality that
Ellie is touching on here that, whether she means it
or not, feels like she's onto something.
Speaker 3 (24:34):
And I, yeah, I'm very interested.
Speaker 2 (24:36):
Let's talk about what happens next, because I want to
know your thoughts on who who's voted for what?
Speaker 1 (24:41):
So oh, I think it's very easy to figure out.
So I just want to say Ellie lies. She says
that it's not about revenge and everybody's like.
Speaker 2 (24:49):
Yeah, right, She's like.
Speaker 1 (24:51):
And she says she'll abide. Yes, she says she'll abide
by the vote, which everybody understands is also a lie.
The vote goes out and it is eight to three against,
and I think very clearly it's Maria Jesse, Tommy the
three yes.
Speaker 2 (25:07):
I agree because I will say and I am just
such a big fan of the actress who plays Maria.
She's so brilliant. She was so great in True True Blood,
Rettina Wesley. She's so fantastic, And she does this momentary
face acting, this tiny little bit of emotion when Ellie
(25:29):
finishes her speech where she looks at Tommy and she
is like, she doesn't be with pride because that wouldn't
be appropriate as the council member in that moment, but
there is a slight smile and a nod of the
head where you just know she thinks, like, yeah, this
is the right thing to do, and people are gonna
vote for this. Like she she smiles, she sees Tommy,
(25:51):
and I just I thought she was just so great
in that moment, because you really feel like there has
been a connection between her Tommy Ellie, and there's a
complexity of understanding about what they should do. But she
feels like they're going to do the right thing, and
obviously we see that they don't.
Speaker 1 (26:06):
Let's take a quick break.
Speaker 2 (26:07):
When you're out.
Speaker 1 (26:22):
And we're back, Tommy seeks out Gail. He finds her
watching a Jackson Little League baseball game, and they talk
about the vote. Gil's drink and of course I will
say that I think that Seth did more harm than good.
I think his I think his outburst kind of scared
people a little bit, and I think it might have
been closer if we had just let Ellie.
Speaker 3 (26:43):
I agree.
Speaker 2 (26:44):
I think that Jesse was right. No one's going to
vote for anger. Yeah, you know, and Seth ended up
trying to help.
Speaker 1 (26:49):
But I think the other thing is you get the
picture that from not just the homophobia that says is
kind of the asshole in town, right, So him having
him on your side might not help. Yeah, So they
talk about the vote, Tommy and Gail. Gail admits that yes,
as the town's only therapist, I'm getting trauma dumped right now,
(27:09):
Gail again train a therapist. Tommy says, hey, I'm concerned
Ellie is gonna act, and Gail's like, no shit, She's
gonna go, what the fuck are you talking about? And
then Tommy's like, you know, I think she learned a
lot of this from Joel. That's this is what Joel
was like in the you know, I don't want her
to be the guy that Joel was that in the
years after the Fall, when he was just lashing out
(27:30):
all the time and killing people, we would assume and
doing violent shit. And Gail says, listen, you'd be surprised
at how much Again, this is another thing that struck
me as a therapist. Weird that Gale would do. Gail
would then say, hey, you know, in the in the
struggle between nature and nurture, it's often the innate essence
(27:54):
of a person that comes to the surface and not
not the way they are raised in their experiences. Gail
basically saying, why do I have a job?
Speaker 2 (28:05):
Why is my.
Speaker 1 (28:05):
Role even important? People are just gonna do what they do.
Very weird take from Gail.
Speaker 2 (28:11):
Very hilarious that Gail says that about Ellie, who is
like still basically I'm just only just stop being a minor.
She's nineteen and for like seven years of her life
was raised by fucking Joel. So I think nature Nutcha,
like how did it come to be? But I also
think I'm loving how much of a bad therapist they're
(28:31):
making Gail, because I also.
Speaker 1 (28:33):
She's like openly like, I'm an alcoholic ID all the time,
I talk about my patients with my other patient shits.
I was mad at Joel because he killed my husband
when it seems clearly like he killed him because he
was tuned like. But I think that Katherine O'Hara brings
a complexity to it and a humor to it that
(28:54):
feels way more real than if she was just like, actually,
you know, still acting like a therapist who was the
only therapist in his zombie apocalypse.
Speaker 2 (29:02):
But yeah, I thought that was really interesting, and I
also wondered if that's like again, was her hatred for
Joel and what happened with Eugene kind of like transferring
a little bit to Ellie because the idea of just
saying like she's a liar, she'll never change, She's just
that kind of person. I was quite some felt.
Speaker 1 (29:18):
I was taken aback. I was really taken aback, I
have to say. But to give Gail a little bit
of grace, I think she's frankly burned out.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
Truly, babe, you got you tell, you tell Tommy forty
years of psychotherapy. Just train someone that training kids, That
training kids out to fix a telephone, that training kids,
just training. You have to listen.
Speaker 1 (29:47):
Do you think the doctor who was looking after Ellie,
who is maybe thirty, who was probably fifteen when all
the shit went down, went to medical school and on
this shit, Hey, come on, just trained somebody anyway. Yeah,
Gayla is like, of course Ellie's gonna go, and YadA YadA. Later,
Dina comes to see Ellie. Ellie is in the middle
of packing for her one woman revenge mission to kill
(30:11):
Abbey and her friends, and she tries to lie that Elly, yeah,
I'm going to bed and I'm not really going, And
then Gina's like, give me a fucking break. And by
the way, look at what you're packing. You're packing all guns,
no food.
Speaker 2 (30:22):
It's such a good line where she goes, I'm going
to bed, and Dina goes, that is not why you're going, Like,
we know where you're fucking going.
Speaker 1 (30:31):
So she then immediately shows her value to this mission
by saying, here's the route we're gonna take up through
the northwest this trail. Here here is our list of
provisions that we're gonna need, including food for the horse, ammo,
et cetera. You gotta put on some hiking boots. You
(30:55):
can't be wearing fucking Chuck Taylor's on a cross country revenge, surely,
so to see how wurs Rainias box Let. We're going
to be getting cold and we're going to take I
know a guy who's going to provision us, and we're
gonna take Shimmer. We meet at this gate at three am.
Seth is the one that meets them in the dark.
He makes Ellie trade rifles with him because his rifle
(31:16):
is better, and he turns out he's the guy that's
supplying her. Now. I want to talk about this because
I think it's interesting ASSISI is an addition, it's interesting
to me to see people say, oh, they're making Seth
a good guy. They're not making him a good guy.
And I think this has been a you know, there
was a piece in Polygon about why not.
Speaker 2 (31:36):
A great job? In that piece, go read that piece
because it's a really interesting take. Why is homophobia the
only prejudice that still kind of exists?
Speaker 1 (31:44):
I would just say this, we don't know that that's
the case, and I would assume that it's surely not
the case. And about good guy or redeeming Seth, I
don't believe that they're redeeming Seth at all, although I
do feel that his apology was somewhatson here we can
disagree about that. I think Jackson is a realist, socialist city.
(32:09):
What I mean by that is, I'm past the point
of my life where I feel like, you know, what
we should do is get rid of all the racists
and all the homophobes and exile them to racist HOMOPHOBI
isolin and I don't think we're ever getting rid of them,
But I do think what I do think is doable
is to forcefully, from the top, from leadership, repress their
(32:32):
ideology and make it clear this is not cool. You
don't do this. I don't care what you think in
your head, but as soon as it comes out, then
it's our business. You stop this and make it clear
to everybody this is over the line. That's how you
live together, not by getting rid of everybody who doesn't
agree with you, even though I agree like I would
(32:53):
love to do that hypothetically, but like hypothetically I would
love to be like all you know, like get them
all out. But then where is the line like and
how you know you you get into the do we
need this person? Do they have a skill whatever?
Speaker 2 (33:10):
Liket like in a way, it's like police because you don't.
Speaker 3 (33:12):
Right to me.
Speaker 1 (33:14):
To me, the way that you build a more a
real like equal, egalitarian society is you you repress those ideologies.
Every time it pops up, you smack it down, as
Maria does, make him fucking apologize, make it clear to
him we're not standing for this now. I'm sure that
(33:36):
while that was a kind of slap on the wrist,
although like a council member comes and talks to Seth,
and I think it's notable that Seth is not on
the council and I don't think wouldever be able to
make his way to the council in that group, right. So,
to me, it's not that they're redeeming Seth or quote
making him a good guy. It's that they're showing a
(33:59):
way to live with chi racism, homophobia, different kinds of
biases that are a part of life. How you cope
with that is you make it clear that it's unacceptable
at every time. It pops up because it will. It
simply will pop up, and you smack it down every
time it comes up. And so I appreciated this take
on it. I didn't think like Set's a good guy
(34:20):
now and Ellie and Seth they're gonna go walking hand
in hand like through the streets of Jackson and everybody
likes Seth now, or that they accept what he said
and think it's cool. I think they made it very
clear to him that they think it's uncool what he did,
and maybe if he keeps doing it, they would exile him.
But I think that this is I thought that this
was like a realistic way of looking at it. And
(34:41):
I would also say, vis a vis like other biases,
we've only seen Jackson, well.
Speaker 3 (34:45):
I was gonna say this is.
Speaker 2 (34:47):
I will say this is actually also, I think, ironically
a good argument for why we haven't seen it, but
also a good argument for why some people found the
set thing maybe like stoehorned in or quick or like
too easily resolved. There's only seven episodes in the show. Yeah,
that's right, So it's so I think the shortness of
the show and the lack of maybe being able to
(35:09):
build on some of those things that we are talking
about on both sides has made it like this and
in a kind of discourse, inspiring conversation. I agree, but yeah,
I'm I'm interested to see. I don't I don't love
like Ellie shaking his hand. I'm like, give Dina the
handshake first of all, because like she sorted this out,
my guy. But it's it's it's fine. You know what.
(35:31):
Sometimes TV is on the nose, is a little bit
on the nose. But we also need Ellie to get
those guns because another change here that we know people
have been talking about is Tommy not Tommy not being
the one who goes to Seattle on this kind of
tear and they have to go after him to get
him back. So we have to find a way for
that to happen. That's a pivotal moment this episode. How
do you feel about the.
Speaker 1 (35:51):
Tommy change, the Tommy thing. I don't care. It makes
complete sense that his character in this show would not
go he's on the council. It would make it I'm
the worst guy, it would make him a worse person
to me.
Speaker 2 (36:03):
Tommy's whole journey in this show is like how he
has grown past the patterns that had sustained him and
jol for so long, and how he is spent time
essentially building this town, building this community so that people
can be safe, almost as a way of making up
for the things that they did, you know, early on
(36:23):
after Sarah's death. And I think that I love this
version of Tommy, and I don't think this version of
Tommy as we know him would leave Maria, or leave
his child, or leave his town. Where we really see
in this episode he is that leader that they need,
even in a way maybe taking over from Maria, who
in season one definitely felt more like she was in
(36:46):
that role. Now Tommy is much more of this kind
of paternal father figure, fixing things, making sure people stay
in line. He uses that darkness that is inside him
and Joel, but here he is channeling it into something
where he can keep you safe. And I think if
he had just run off, it would have been shocking
and it would have been heartbreaking, but I don't know
(37:06):
that it would have been true to the character as
he is in this show. So I'm fine with this
because Ellie definitely would go after I feel this.
Speaker 1 (37:14):
I feel the same way. Listen, He's on the council,
he's going a wife and kids. I think I think
it would be a I think it would hurt the
town in a way if as part of the council
that had voted we're not sending anybody. He then broke
that social contract and went that.
Speaker 3 (37:33):
Could take the whole town down.
Speaker 2 (37:35):
Let's be real, because then you say, well, what's the point.
Speaker 1 (37:38):
And abandon his wife and kids. I just I think
one I think he will follow him there. I think
that that is a change.
Speaker 2 (37:46):
I don't think that we're going to end up in
a situation where Tommy doesn't end up in Seattle. That's
also I think this is more believable. Now the child,
the subrogate child that your brother raised after you tube
couldn't save his daughter, your niece, Now she has gone
and you don't want her, as established through the conversation
with Gail, to follow him on that path.
Speaker 3 (38:07):
So now they've gone, you can.
Speaker 2 (38:10):
Be part of a conversation with the town where you
don't have to give up sixteen people, but maybe just
a group of three or four can go with Tommy.
There is a way that makes it make sense. And
I do think let's talk a little bit about adaptation, Jason,
because I loved the point you made about how rare
a great video game adaptation is, and I think that
is a big point here. There is a lot of
conversation this season, I feel, more so, maybe even than
(38:33):
the first season, about adaptation and changing from the game
and the beats people really loved in the game not
necessarily playing out the same way. And you just made
a really great point before we got a mic about
why you think that might be happening.
Speaker 1 (38:45):
Yeah, I mean, I find it. I find the conversation interesting,
but also when it turns really negative, I find it
really wearying. And I think it's I think it's because
all other types of media, magazines, newspapers, whatever, have comics right,
have been adapted for movies and television for decades and
(39:07):
decades and decades, and we're used to the language of that,
the shape that takes, the kind of trade offs that
happen when a comic, book or whatever goes from its
original form to a television or movie. And I think
this being really a pioneering video game adaptation in so
(39:28):
many ways, like the first prestige video game adaptation, you know,
like of this.
Speaker 2 (39:35):
Gly acclaimed video game adaptation on TV. I mean, look,
at what we have in the past and needs. Look,
you all know I love many of these movies. N
you know, Nineties Street Fire, you know, the Doom video game,
the Doom video game adaptation, Oh.
Speaker 3 (39:50):
My god, I yeah, I like the Rocks like a little.
Speaker 2 (39:53):
Bit Doom too.
Speaker 3 (39:54):
But I love the original nineties More or Combat.
Speaker 2 (39:57):
But none of those movies were out here making huge
swings and critically acclaimed, award winning performances that was not
the conversation that was being had around.
Speaker 1 (40:08):
There, or or were coming from an original source material
game that had as strong a story as the last
of them.
Speaker 2 (40:16):
It was also so cinematically yes inspired, which I think
changes it.
Speaker 1 (40:21):
I think that the video game audience is just not
used to something coming from their world and being adapted
to the screen. I think it's this is a very new.
Speaker 2 (40:34):
I think you're right. And also I think like for
people like who love comic books and this maybe UH
is speaking to you guys who listen to podcasts, because
I know we have so many die out comic book heads.
But maybe you don't realize this because you're not. But
like for example, Avengers Infinity War or whatever, it's nothing
like the comics like you, I can't even tell you
(40:55):
how different it is, like the different characters, the different
you know, we were talking our favorite comics.
Speaker 3 (41:00):
You'll know, know Adam Warlock.
Speaker 2 (41:02):
Like, there's so many changes that we are used to
adaptations that are more about adapting vibes or moments or beats.
Speaker 3 (41:10):
This is a pretty direct adaptation.
Speaker 2 (41:12):
But to make it entertaining for TV viewers who have
not who have not played the game or watched the
playthrough of the game, who have not necessarily have any
experience of these characters outside of what we see here,
it still needs to be true to them. And I
think that this choice, specifically with Tommy is very true
to who he is and makes a lot of sense.
(41:33):
So I'm interested to see where they go next with it.
But I think you're right, there's no way he doesn't
end up in Seattle at some point.
Speaker 1 (41:39):
So they head off. And by the way, with regards
to handshakes, here's my issue. No handshake for Dina. No,
have you ever shaken someone's hand that's going on a
journey and there's a person who's going on the journey
with them, who's standing right next to them, and you
don't shake them too.
Speaker 2 (41:58):
She was also called the slow Yeah, he also suck. Also,
she's the one who's organized this set, so I'm like,
what's going on that? But you know, I mean they
want to Yeah, I appreciate it anyway, Yeah, they and
then they stop at the graveyard, which I just I
love this moment so much.
Speaker 1 (42:16):
I guess the crime and Ellie, oh my god, beautifulish.
The shooting was so beautiful. The cinematography here Ellie drops
some coffee beans from that uh you know, call back
to the season one exchange when Joel Ellie sip some
coffee and she's.
Speaker 2 (42:33):
Like taste like, you know, a bunch shit or whatever
she says, and he just drinks more of an episode four.
I thought that was so cute.
Speaker 1 (42:40):
That was so beautiful, and you know, I wanted to say,
like the the cinematography here was so good. There's so Yeah,
there's a lot of shows that I'm watching or have
watched recently that I'm sure Joel will resonate with this
are so fucking dark, I mean visual dark that even
(43:01):
when the scenes are taking place outside what was the
Jake Jillen hall uh Presumed Innocent presumed it. The adaptation
of Presumed Innocent looked like it was shot at night.
The highlights are so taken down, and so what I
loved about this, this scene from the Last of Us
is that they did do that. They squashed the highlights,
(43:24):
but they did it because the sun was in the background.
It's like silhouetting the characters, and it worked. I hate
the way that looks when the sun is not in
the frame. This it's just like, you know, bright's full
noon sunlight like coming down very evenly, and then you
squash all the highlights. So I'm like, is it night?
Speaker 2 (43:44):
Is it day? You got to be like a Jordan
Peele levelen note to be able to get away.
Speaker 1 (43:48):
And so I just just like really appreciate how beautiful
this looks.
Speaker 2 (43:51):
Anyway, especially because I have to anytime I watch something
with Dolby Vision, I won't name streamers. I literally have
a hat I have to do through my Roku to
ton the Dolby vision off because it looks so dark
on my TV. So yes, I appreciate the beautiful lighting
and incredible cinematic vision that the cinematographer and lighting crew
(44:12):
and gaffer and everyone else get on the chow.
Speaker 1 (44:14):
They passed the time just naming musicians according to letters
the kind of old game that m h. Ellie had
been playing for many years. Dina keeps wanting, wanting to
She's basically using this as a way to like pump
Ellie for more and more and get to know her,
get to know her right, which Ellie is for as
(44:35):
fond as she is of Dina is not used to
letting people in. So Dina asks about the first person
Ellie killed, which Ellie is like, that's really fucked up,
and I don't want to talk about that.
Speaker 2 (44:45):
We know about my first lesbian lover who I had
to kill, but.
Speaker 1 (44:52):
I'll tell you about the second one, which was the
the young man in Oklahoma City when Joel and Ellie
were on the the kid got a hold of Jewel
and Ellie killed him. They then go into the camp
out under an outcrop because Dina must have a broken
leg or something that she could she can feel the
(45:15):
rain coming, and you know, Ellie's like, how did you
do that? She's like, I'm a witch. And it's clear
that probably both of them want to keep talking, but
they're just gonna It's very real. It's very real.
Speaker 2 (45:29):
It's like there's always the jokes about like queer women
and lesbians and stuff about how they like. They'll be like,
does this person have a crush from me? All they
flying and at the same time the other person is
thinking the same thing. This is very real to that experience.
Speaker 1 (45:42):
So they turn off the lights. But then Dina's like, actually,
I want to keep talking. I want to talk about
the kiss and when do you rate it? And so
this was Dina's first sapphic experience, and Ellie is more experienced,
somewhat more experienced, So what's the rating? Ellie gives a
six solid definitely lying, definitely lying, but like a tough number.
Speaker 2 (46:05):
I know, she's such a bit sometimes, man, I love her.
Speaker 1 (46:09):
And Dina says that, in fact, did go back to Jesse,
so we are in a situationship or whatever again the case.
Maybe Ellie seems sad about that, And then Dina's like,
does just Jesse ever strike he was sad? And She's like,
I think he just might be a sad person, which
I'm like, Dina, Babe, look around.
Speaker 3 (46:30):
Everyone's sad, babe. Everyone you're you're living in a bad time.
Speaker 1 (46:34):
At age nineteen or fifteen or whatever, it is absolutely
normal to ask somebody like so, who was the first
person you get.
Speaker 2 (46:42):
Killed exactly, this is what this is the life we live, right.
I thought it was really interesting because she said, she said,
you know, do you ever think he's sad? And then
she goes, I think he just might be a sad person,
and Ellie said, well, why do you think that? And
I thought Dina was gonna say because otherwise, like he
must have gone through something like we've been through like these,
but she says otherwise it must just be me. And
(47:04):
I thought that was a very interesting telling kind of
feeling about how Dina sees herself and again maybe how
sheltered she's been in Jackson, because I'm guessing the reason
he's sad is because he's probably like killed fifty people
and lived in this way.
Speaker 1 (47:18):
I snus pressed, I mean it should be Dina. Dina's
pretty rad, you know, like yeah.
Speaker 2 (47:24):
That also as well. Guess what.
Speaker 3 (47:25):
My funniest thought wasn't even about the zombie pop.
Speaker 2 (47:28):
I was like, maybe it's just depressed, Like I'm depressed,
not living in a zombie apocalypse, so like maybe he
just has depression. But yeah, great combo. I felt like
it told a lot. There was so much tension there.
I definitely expected it to go in a different way.
But I love how they're kind of holding off on
whatever's to come with these two. I thought it was
really effective.
Speaker 1 (47:48):
Let's take a quick break over.
Speaker 2 (48:04):
It's the next day.
Speaker 1 (48:06):
They are on the trail. They're just outside of Seattle.
They come across the bodies of the Seraphytes on that
trail from the earlier scene, and it's horrible. There's been
a gunfight, lots of different caliber of bullets around. From
what the Seraphytes said, it was probably the wolves that
(48:27):
did this. Yeah, and by Abby's group.
Speaker 2 (48:30):
I like that Ellie works out. She's like, they're different calibers,
so this probably isn't Fedra because they're basically usually using
the same weapons. I also thought this was really again
a great hint at how prepared Dina is for this mission,
because she finds the dead body of the good Little
Girl and she pukes.
Speaker 3 (48:50):
Now, obviously that is horrific, terrible thing to see. Even
Ellie is shaken by it.
Speaker 2 (48:56):
But again, I think we start to see Dina realizing
that the outside is where more scary and violent than
you could imagine.
Speaker 1 (49:05):
So they follow the highway and they get within sight
of the city Seattle, there and that.
Speaker 2 (49:10):
Like looks really quiet, probably not a problem. They're like,
think that might maybe they're smaller than we thought, which I.
Speaker 1 (49:15):
Low Manny in a lookout post, kind of not doing
his job. He gets a call on the radio saying, hey,
are we clear to move the patrol up to the
next checkpoint. He looks through his binoculars and he says, yes,
clear to move up. And then we see that patrol,
and the patrol is like three armored vehicles with fifty
(49:36):
caliber machine guns mounted on top, followed by like, I
don't know, fifty sixty eighty dismounted heavily armed infantry.
Speaker 2 (49:45):
Like like at least I was like, maybe it's one hundred.
Speaker 1 (49:49):
And it's a lot.
Speaker 2 (49:50):
It's a lot, And this is very interesting. I think
that the posing of how we're meeting the WLF compared
to how I'm meeting the Seraphytes is very interesting. I
also loved like that they kept the Seraphyites looking like
Robin Hood and his merry men, which I always thought
was like really interesting kind of traditionists, like they kind
of don't want to go back to the future, compared
(50:11):
to this very heavy armor, armored and militarized WLF. Yes,
I would also say if you watched If you haven't
watched this episode, but you love to listen to our recaps,
this is definitely a less scary episode of the Last
of Us, you could try it out. But I will
also say do if you have watched it, yeah, are
(50:32):
you're gonna watch? Don't watch the coming next because I
found that there's like a ten minute coming next and
I found it to be extreme. And I understand maybe
they're worried about people not keeping up with the show.
Now we've lost our darling, you know, Pedro Pascal, who
we all love so much. But I accidentally kind of
(50:52):
started playing when I was doing my rewatch and I
was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. I was like,
this is crazy, So keep an eye out for that.
But yeah, Jason, what do you think of this episod?
How are you feeling about it.
Speaker 1 (51:02):
That I think that this is I think this show
is really good, continues to be really good. I think
that there's so much to think about and talk about,
Like with this, I think that they've done a great
job of to be frank like, I found it wearying
to I found the last of us to the game.
(51:23):
The incessant violence, I find I found it like numbing.
And I think that the characterizations, you know, the writing,
the wonderful performances here have breathed flesh and blood and
emotion into these characters that is beyond just bloodlust and revenge. Yeah,
(51:44):
and I know that that stuff is there, you know,
particularly in the DLC, in the but I agree with
whatever I think that. I think that there's different aspects
of these characters that have come to the surface, and
in particular in this episode, there's so much to think about,
and I'm just really for.
Speaker 2 (52:00):
Me, it definitely wasn't like I was not exaggerating when
I said like it was. I was dreading watching this
after the last episode. I was like, I don't want
to feel that relentless sadness and horror and just depression.
But I felt like the change of scenery, the cinematography,
the mix of the kind of nature with as a
contrast to Jackson, and the interactions between Dina and Ellie
(52:25):
and kind of the addition of this Tommy and Gaye conversation,
I felt like they were, Yeah, they were doing a
lot more emotionally to kind of keep you connected, rather
than this kind of blood lust that the original game
definitely leaned into.
Speaker 1 (52:40):
In the next few episodes of X ray Vision, we
are recapping episodes four, five, and six of and Or
on Tuesday. We're prepping for Thunderbolts with the MCU in
comics history of the main characters on Thursday, and then
back to and Or with our roundtable with our super
producers on Friday. And then Monday, we're reacting to the
Thunderbolts movie. Yeah it's here, folks. That's it for this episode.
(53:02):
Next were listening bye. X ray Vision is hosted by
Jason Sepsion.
Speaker 2 (53:08):
And Rosie Knight and is a production of iHeart Podcasts.
Our executive producers are Joel Monique and Aaron Kaufman.
Speaker 1 (53:15):
Our supervising producer is Abu Zafar.
Speaker 2 (53:17):
Our producers are Common Laurent Dean Jonathan and Bay wag.
Speaker 1 (53:21):
Our theme song is by Brian Vasquez, with alternate theme
songs by Aaron Kaufman.
Speaker 2 (53:26):
Special thanks to Soul Rubin, Chris Lord, Kenny Goodman, and
Heidi our discord moderator
Hosts And Creators
Jason Concepcion
Rosie Knight
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Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com