April 24, 2025 • 19 mins
With the Avengers gone, the world needs new heroes to protect it. Enter…the Thunderbolts! Jason and Rosie dive into the comics debut of the Thunderbolts, 1997’s “Justice…Like Lighting!” Whether you haven’t read the issue and want to know what you’re missing, or you already read it and want to dive deeper into how the comic might influence the upcoming movie, we’ve got you covered!
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Warning.
Speaker 2 (00:00):
Today's episode canday spoilers for the debut of the Thunderbolts
team in Marvel Comics in nineteen ninety seven. And if
you didn't read that, don't worry because we're just going
to tell you everything that happened. Hello, my name is
(00:30):
Jason Muceepsion and I'm Mersey Night and welcome to next
our vision of the podcast where we dive deep into
your favorite Joe's movie comics of pop culture.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
Coming to you from iHeart Podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
We'll bring you three episodes a week every Tuesday, Wednesday,
Thursday plus news plus news.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
In today's episode, it's a book club episode. But you
know what, guys, we're looking through Ip mcgeddon and there's
so much going on. We're covering the Lost of Us,
we're covering and or we're covering the Thunderbolts. So you
know what, if you didn't get a chance, don't want
to read this issue, don't worry because guess what we're
going to tell you exactly what happens in it. So
this is Thunderbot's number one from ninety ninety seven.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
All right, Thunderbolts number one, tell us about it, Rosie.
Speaker 1 (01:06):
Okay, So in the wake of the Onslaught event where
we saw the terrifying villain Onslaugh essentially kill. They are
the Dangers and the Fantastic Four. They are dead. Guys
can come on for ninety ninety seven. They are dead.
And I have to say, I think there's a pretty
important point in this comic because we don't really know
what the status quo is going to be going into Thunderbolts,
(01:29):
So all we know is that people keep saying the
Avengers are not going to come and save us, so
who knows. So the Marvel universe is without the heroes
it has long depended on. New York is in ruins
after Onslaughts attack, and the world is facing a future
without superheroes. That is until a mysterious team of heroes
shows up on the scene known as the Thunderbolts Citizen
(01:49):
V Techno, mac One, Songbird, Atlas, and Meteorite, and Mark
Bagley gives these motherfuckers the most nineties looking costumes of
all time, and.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
So looly really nineties.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
You're reading this as a kid, and you're like, oh,
this is gonna be just another group of nineties superheroes.
Who cares they don't make any impact on me? But
the book wants you to know they're important, so they're
going to start off by taking down the rat Pack,
who are wearing some interestingly Barren Zemo coded outfits, and
the Wrecking Crew, showing that they are incredibly strong. Because
(02:22):
the Wrecking Crew are very strong, they have magical artifacts,
and the new team, the Thunderbolts, took them down very easily.
But just as New York and the world are getting
ready to accept their new savers, the issue has a
legendary rug pool when it is revealed on the final
page that Citizen v Is Baron Helmet z Emo and
the Thunderbolts are actually the Masters of Evil. WHOA. Now,
(02:49):
it's kind of hard to explain how this was back
in the day, because it was marketed as if this
was the new team you needed to know. This was
the new hero team you were going to care about.
There were no leaks, there were no forums. They're probably
very early versions of forums, but not the kind that
would be leaking like this. There were no constant clickbait coverage,
so we were really shocked when this happened, and it's
(03:11):
a huge establishing point for the name of the Thunderbolts team,
which when we go into the movie. We're going to
be very interested to see if they keep because the
thing that is key to the Thunderbolts is the idea
that you think they are heroes, but they are not.
Whereas from what we've seen of the trailers, this is
the inversion of that, you think they are villains or
morally gray heroes who are now going to become heroes
(03:37):
in a true sense. So that would be a direct
kind of flip of what we expect from the Thunderbolts.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
Let's talk about that. I wonder how much of that,
how much of a mistaken identity mm hmmm, dynamic will
be involved in the movie based on this. As you mentioned,
it's pretty it's central to Thunderbolts.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
It's central. So why had such an impact is to.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
The issue and and to the ongoing run, which takes
some really fun directions, like you know, Zemo, son of
a Nazi thirteenth Year zero is you know, pretty keen
on kind of subverting heroism and doing evil while pretending
(04:25):
to be a bad guy. But the conflict that becomes
the most interesting conflict that drives the Thunderbolts is that
a lot of his team is like, wait a second,
I kind of like being good guy, like it.
Speaker 1 (04:35):
Seems kind of good like people like people. It's kind
of easier than being villains. We don't have to do
as much scheming.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
And so I wonder if in the movie there's something
there's either that or you know, or or if the
team they flip it and the team gets set up
almost as bad guys.
Speaker 1 (04:59):
I do want if we are rooting for them, but
we end up in a situation where we know they
were trying to do the right thing, but they end
as antagonists. I think that would be really clever and
it would make sense. Put on your spoiler earmuffs if
you're going into this not seeing any trailers and you
don't want to know anything that's happening, because I do
think this is something they should have kept out the trailers.
(05:20):
We're gonna spoil. Now we know thanks to the trailers
that you know Bob and Sentry are the same person.
So I wonder if the thing here is Bob is
on their team, working alongside them, and at the end
it's revealed like, well, you guys have been working with Century,
who is the bad guy you were supposed to be
taking down all along, so you must truly be the
(05:43):
villains of the piece, and we end up in a
situation where they are perceived that way and go into
future stories as antagonists. That would be very brave of them.
I think to do that with Bucky.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
I agree, especially I I'm going to pitch a haircut
on your idea. I wonder if the Countess's idea is
we can't control Century. He becomes the Void, he kills people.
What if we frame the Thunderbolts for all these deaths.
(06:20):
They're bad guys anyway, and I think maybe that's where
we might end up at the end, where they defeat
the centry work that makes a defeat defeat they you know,
defeat the Void and stabilize Bob slash the Century, but
all the destruction that happens in New York and the
casualties then become the official story, then becomes the Thunderbolts.
Speaker 1 (06:43):
Did this? Yes, that actually makes a lot of sense.
Could see them on the run, could see that bond
as a team tested. We also know that the Asterix,
which has been a big part of the marketing and
at first seemed like maybe was less of a marketing
thing and was more of an actual Disney wasn't sure
if they were going to call it that, but it
has become a key part of the marketing. I definitely
(07:04):
think we could end up in a world where these
by the end, they're like being called the Dark Avengers,
or they're being called, you know, something different than the Thunderbolts,
but the Thunderbolt's name would make a lot of sense
if it goes that route. Jason, that's a that's a
very good take. I think that could definitely happen. And
(07:25):
this is very interesting as well in a historical sense,
which go back and listen to our who are the
Thunderbolts episode if you want to hear Jason really dig
deep into this in a really fantastic omnibus. But one
of our discord users, Giant Asian Man, who I've met
fantastic comic book lover, he asked a question that was
basically like the book came out of the shadow of
(07:47):
Marvel's bankruptcy filing. Obviously the issue was planned and in
the works, but did that have any effect on its reception?
So I'm going to do a little brief answer to
that that yeah, touches on it, And the answer is,
like the bubble had already like the early nineties when
Image was founded nineteen ninety three, ninety ninety four, we're
talking about eight million sales for X Men issue one,
(08:08):
you know, the Chris Climont, Jim Lee issue Image Comics,
the death of Superman. These are huge stories, but around
the mid nineties it just absolutely tanked corporate greedfully supplanted
kind of creative ambition. The comic book retail sector, which
had been inflated by years of gimmick covers and variants
and foil covers and all those things we loved as
(08:29):
kids and fake promises of their collectability kind of popped
in nineteen ninety six and this massive store closers ensued,
and a foolish gamble from Marvel, which again we have
a lot of fun talking about on that whose Standerbot's
issue saw The publisher turned to Rob Eifeld and Jim Lee,
who had left found Image Comics, and they were given
(08:51):
the Avengers and the Fantastic Four with the freedom to
start a new storyline outside of ongoing Marvel continuity, and
the Onslaught crossover that we mentioned provided basically an in
story excuse that resulted in Heroes reborn, a misguided initiative
that only further deflated confidence in the publisher. During that time,
cap Irom Manthor and the Fantastic Four were off the table,
(09:14):
So in the throes of impending bankruptcy and ownership they
Marvel began to experiment and the most shocking and long
lasting of that was this Busiac and Bagley Thunderbolts, which
they were kind of able to do, this completely wild
swing for the fences. And as we've seen now you know,
we're in a situation where we're almost you know, decades later.
(09:36):
It had such an impact that we are having this
adaptation question mark influence question Mark. It's gonna be interesting
to see where it led.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
Yeah, do you think the reveal that Shield was Hydra
steals a little bit of this thunderas of the the
original idea of the thunderbolts, Like if they couldn't obviously
(10:09):
I think do a one to one adaptation. I think
because you know, we've already done one of the most
crazy twists in the MCU, which is that shockingly Shield
for a number of decades was secretly a neo Hydra,
neo Nazi organization run by Hydra at the highest levels.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
I think you make a great point. I definitely think
that's an issue they ran into, and I think that's
why we're getting this kind of reimagined later stage Thunderbolts.
And there has been times in the last few years
where now the Thunderbolts are more of this kind of
like a suicide squad for Marvel, which I think is
what they are kind of pushing them towards in this.
So yeah, but I think the Hydra Cap kind of
(10:54):
hydro Nazi stuff was so well done in the movies,
and then we even got that great throwback in you know,
endgame where Cap says like, Hail Hydra when he's in
the lift, so he doesn't have to have the fight like,
so we even get that, So yeah, I do think
that makes it harder. But I also think that we
are in an interesting situation with the MCU where we
(11:18):
are now in a time when the MCU isn't maybe
being looked at as kind of creatively bankrupt, just as
the way the comics were being looked at by then,
So could this be that return. I do think that
with the new trailers we've seen with Florence Pugh jumping
off the second tallest building in the world like nine
times getting her Tom cruise on and the kind of
(11:40):
a twenty four branding. I think they want us to
see this as a new era for the MCU, not
just in storytelling, but also in the way the movies
are made. So it could be interesting to see if
Thunderbolts acts and has that same impact as the comic
did all those years ago.
Speaker 2 (11:56):
Let me ask you this, this being you know, I
think one of the most impactful in a kind of
plot shape and marketing way impactful issue to Marvel's success
in the twenty first century. Do you have any like
what would be your favorite runs and or issues, let's
(12:20):
say your Mount Rushmore of nineties Marvel. Oh, and where
would Thunderbolts land on that Mount Rushmore?
Speaker 1 (12:29):
I think that I think that for the actual like
story of it, and kind of I would say, like
the for me, the notion of the Thunderbolts is cooler
than necessarily maybe the execution though I do remember deeply
like feeling like it's so important and great. But I
(12:53):
do think that for me, I can't help it, like
as a nineties kid, like the number one has to
be that X Men number one. I just remember so
deeply it coming out with that trifl cover and the
connecting issues, and obviously I was like not reading it
when it first came out because I would have been
(13:14):
like three, But I was probably reading it two years
later when I was five or six, and I just
thought it was the coolest thing in the whole world.
So that would definitely be up there for me, even
though ironically as an adult I now know it kind
of ended my favorite era of X Men, which is
Chris Clamont's X Men. Other ones I do think the
Infinity Gauntlets and stuff I Marvel work is yeah, unbelievable,
(13:39):
and the fact that it's basically like George Pez and
then Ron Limbs, so it's like people that I just
love so much. Infinity. You got Infinity Gauntlet ninety ninety one,
Infinity War ninety two, Infinity Crusade ninety three, which I
think is fantastically underrated and should definitely be checked out.
Other ones that I really love, I would say that now,
especially post Spider Verse and the impact, I would say
(14:02):
Spider Man twenty ninety nine is up there for me.
It's I think it's such a different, cool vibe. And
when you did your omnibus on it. It really like inspired
me to go back and kind of look at it
and explore that just how different it was to anything
that we'd ever really seen before, and the tone and
it's so extreme and so nineties, which is one of
(14:26):
my favorite things about the kind of that era.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
I definitely did not think that twenty ninety nine, that
Spider Man twenty ninety nine would have the impact that
it has.
Speaker 1 (14:38):
I thought it was cool.
Speaker 2 (14:39):
I definitely don't think we'd still be talking about a
Spider Man twenty ninety nine thirty years later.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
Yeah, right, that's kind of crazy. Also, really any for me,
I'm a big I'm a big lover of the X Men,
so all your kind of like you know, New Warriors
and stuff like that. If we're talking, Yeah, like those
eras I think were really good. Also, I would say aesthetically,
and something that I've still loved since then to this
(15:06):
day is Tom McFarland's Spider Man. I think that is
some of the best Spider Man we've we've ever had. Also,
that is, you know, something that we've talked a lot about,
but you're talking about some of the really great you know,
comic you're talking about like the Marvel Nights stuff. Some
of that started in the early, like the late nineties,
you know, when they were trying to work out what
(15:27):
would happen. So, like, you know Christopher Priest Black Panther,
which is just such an iconic reimagining of.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
The character that's up there.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
That's definitely I think that was like a game changer.
I would also say this is controversial. I'm sorry, guys,
I just but I do. I loved the Clone Sago
when I was a kid with Ben Riley. Like, I
know it's hated, I know the choice is hated, but
I think that had a huge impact on me. And
I remember that being another comic where when it was
kind of revealed this idea that Spider Man had never
(15:57):
been Spider Man. I was so shocked.
Speaker 2 (15:59):
I just true, it's crazy.
Speaker 1 (16:02):
It's a crazy reveal. Okay, so what are yours?
Speaker 2 (16:05):
I would go? I would go Generation X just Y
X slash Mutant spin off with a bunch of new
fun very nineties characters included I Love You, Chamber, Jubilee,
et cetera.
Speaker 1 (16:22):
I would go Christopher.
Speaker 2 (16:23):
Pries Black Panther because I think it was Yes, we
don't have the Marv the MCU version of T'Challa and
the Black Panther about that, and then I think, I
think the Infinity side, the George, I'll just call it
the George Peress Saga, Infinity Saga and Ultronunlimited.
Speaker 1 (16:43):
Those two, oh, those two are soga. Yeah. I would
also say you touched on something with gen X because
Chamber is one of my old time favorite characters, and also,
like Chris Pachallo, like what an artist like to me,
the nineties kind of stuff, and that was during the
Phalanx Covenant storyline, which is so inherently nineties. But yeah,
I think I think those are some good some good
(17:05):
reads if you guys want to want to check out
some other nineties stories that honestly still inspiring the MCU.
I do find it very interesting that we're in an
era now where those nineties comics, which at the time
you know, did sell so much, like think about Venom.
Venom is another they hated and hated Redesclined, But now
(17:30):
they are shaping these billion dollar the Studios Hope franchises
in a way that I think nobody could have ever
really seen. And I think that is a really interesting
space to be in, especially when a lot of those
creators are still active. Jim Lee is still there still
(17:50):
at DC. You know. Rob Liefeld still there, just relaunched
Young Blood, you know, Mark Civestriet is still just keeping
it going over it to number one, volume one, like fifteen, Like,
you know, it's definitely a really interesting time. And to
have a Thunderbolts comic Thunderbolts movie come out that is
essentially like weighing on the notion of like is it
(18:16):
gonna be the movie that saves the MCU? Like, yeah,
Wolverine Deadpool. It made a billion dollars, but it did
not set the MCU back on any track. You know,
it was almost the Elseworld's type story. So it's interesting
to be in this situation again and see see how
it shakes out.
Speaker 2 (18:33):
Well, what should we read next? What should we be
watching next? Let us know the discord. That's it for
this episode. Thanks for listening.
Speaker 1 (18:41):
I have a good day well.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
X ray Vision is hosted by Jason Gitsubsion and Rosie
Knight and is a production of iHeart Podcasts. Our executive
producers are Jewell Smith and Aaron Kaufman. Our supervising producer
is a Boo zafar Our. Producers are Carmen Laurent and
Mia Taylor. Our theme song is by Brian Basquez.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
Special thanks to Soul Rubin and Chris Laude, Kenny Goodman
and Heidi our discord moderator.
Warning.
Speaker 2 (00:00):
Today's episode canday spoilers for the debut of the Thunderbolts
team in Marvel Comics in nineteen ninety seven. And if
you didn't read that, don't worry because we're just going
to tell you everything that happened. Hello, my name is
(00:30):
Jason Muceepsion and I'm Mersey Night and welcome to next
our vision of the podcast where we dive deep into
your favorite Joe's movie comics of pop culture.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
Coming to you from iHeart Podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
We'll bring you three episodes a week every Tuesday, Wednesday,
Thursday plus news plus news.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
In today's episode, it's a book club episode. But you
know what, guys, we're looking through Ip mcgeddon and there's
so much going on. We're covering the Lost of Us,
we're covering and or we're covering the Thunderbolts. So you
know what, if you didn't get a chance, don't want
to read this issue, don't worry because guess what we're
going to tell you exactly what happens in it. So
this is Thunderbot's number one from ninety ninety seven.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
All right, Thunderbolts number one, tell us about it, Rosie.
Speaker 1 (01:06):
Okay, So in the wake of the Onslaught event where
we saw the terrifying villain Onslaugh essentially kill. They are
the Dangers and the Fantastic Four. They are dead. Guys
can come on for ninety ninety seven. They are dead.
And I have to say, I think there's a pretty
important point in this comic because we don't really know
what the status quo is going to be going into Thunderbolts,
(01:29):
So all we know is that people keep saying the
Avengers are not going to come and save us, so
who knows. So the Marvel universe is without the heroes
it has long depended on. New York is in ruins
after Onslaughts attack, and the world is facing a future
without superheroes. That is until a mysterious team of heroes
shows up on the scene known as the Thunderbolts Citizen
(01:49):
V Techno, mac One, Songbird, Atlas, and Meteorite, and Mark
Bagley gives these motherfuckers the most nineties looking costumes of
all time, and.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
So looly really nineties.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
You're reading this as a kid, and you're like, oh,
this is gonna be just another group of nineties superheroes.
Who cares they don't make any impact on me? But
the book wants you to know they're important, so they're
going to start off by taking down the rat Pack,
who are wearing some interestingly Barren Zemo coded outfits, and
the Wrecking Crew, showing that they are incredibly strong. Because
(02:22):
the Wrecking Crew are very strong, they have magical artifacts,
and the new team, the Thunderbolts, took them down very easily.
But just as New York and the world are getting
ready to accept their new savers, the issue has a
legendary rug pool when it is revealed on the final
page that Citizen v Is Baron Helmet z Emo and
the Thunderbolts are actually the Masters of Evil. WHOA. Now,
(02:49):
it's kind of hard to explain how this was back
in the day, because it was marketed as if this
was the new team you needed to know. This was
the new hero team you were going to care about.
There were no leaks, there were no forums. They're probably
very early versions of forums, but not the kind that
would be leaking like this. There were no constant clickbait coverage,
so we were really shocked when this happened, and it's
(03:11):
a huge establishing point for the name of the Thunderbolts team,
which when we go into the movie. We're going to
be very interested to see if they keep because the
thing that is key to the Thunderbolts is the idea
that you think they are heroes, but they are not.
Whereas from what we've seen of the trailers, this is
the inversion of that, you think they are villains or
morally gray heroes who are now going to become heroes
(03:37):
in a true sense. So that would be a direct
kind of flip of what we expect from the Thunderbolts.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
Let's talk about that. I wonder how much of that,
how much of a mistaken identity mm hmmm, dynamic will
be involved in the movie based on this. As you mentioned,
it's pretty it's central to Thunderbolts.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
It's central. So why had such an impact is to.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
The issue and and to the ongoing run, which takes
some really fun directions, like you know, Zemo, son of
a Nazi thirteenth Year zero is you know, pretty keen
on kind of subverting heroism and doing evil while pretending
(04:25):
to be a bad guy. But the conflict that becomes
the most interesting conflict that drives the Thunderbolts is that
a lot of his team is like, wait a second,
I kind of like being good guy, like it.
Speaker 1 (04:35):
Seems kind of good like people like people. It's kind
of easier than being villains. We don't have to do
as much scheming.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
And so I wonder if in the movie there's something
there's either that or you know, or or if the
team they flip it and the team gets set up
almost as bad guys.
Speaker 1 (04:59):
I do want if we are rooting for them, but
we end up in a situation where we know they
were trying to do the right thing, but they end
as antagonists. I think that would be really clever and
it would make sense. Put on your spoiler earmuffs if
you're going into this not seeing any trailers and you
don't want to know anything that's happening, because I do
think this is something they should have kept out the trailers.
(05:20):
We're gonna spoil. Now we know thanks to the trailers
that you know Bob and Sentry are the same person.
So I wonder if the thing here is Bob is
on their team, working alongside them, and at the end
it's revealed like, well, you guys have been working with Century,
who is the bad guy you were supposed to be
taking down all along, so you must truly be the
(05:43):
villains of the piece, and we end up in a
situation where they are perceived that way and go into
future stories as antagonists. That would be very brave of them.
I think to do that with Bucky.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
I agree, especially I I'm going to pitch a haircut
on your idea. I wonder if the Countess's idea is
we can't control Century. He becomes the Void, he kills people.
What if we frame the Thunderbolts for all these deaths.
(06:20):
They're bad guys anyway, and I think maybe that's where
we might end up at the end, where they defeat
the centry work that makes a defeat defeat they you know,
defeat the Void and stabilize Bob slash the Century, but
all the destruction that happens in New York and the
casualties then become the official story, then becomes the Thunderbolts.
Speaker 1 (06:43):
Did this? Yes, that actually makes a lot of sense.
Could see them on the run, could see that bond
as a team tested. We also know that the Asterix,
which has been a big part of the marketing and
at first seemed like maybe was less of a marketing
thing and was more of an actual Disney wasn't sure
if they were going to call it that, but it
has become a key part of the marketing. I definitely
(07:04):
think we could end up in a world where these
by the end, they're like being called the Dark Avengers,
or they're being called, you know, something different than the Thunderbolts,
but the Thunderbolt's name would make a lot of sense
if it goes that route. Jason, that's a that's a
very good take. I think that could definitely happen. And
(07:25):
this is very interesting as well in a historical sense,
which go back and listen to our who are the
Thunderbolts episode if you want to hear Jason really dig
deep into this in a really fantastic omnibus. But one
of our discord users, Giant Asian Man, who I've met
fantastic comic book lover, he asked a question that was
basically like the book came out of the shadow of
(07:47):
Marvel's bankruptcy filing. Obviously the issue was planned and in
the works, but did that have any effect on its reception?
So I'm going to do a little brief answer to
that that yeah, touches on it, And the answer is,
like the bubble had already like the early nineties when
Image was founded nineteen ninety three, ninety ninety four, we're
talking about eight million sales for X Men issue one,
(08:08):
you know, the Chris Climont, Jim Lee issue Image Comics,
the death of Superman. These are huge stories, but around
the mid nineties it just absolutely tanked corporate greedfully supplanted
kind of creative ambition. The comic book retail sector, which
had been inflated by years of gimmick covers and variants
and foil covers and all those things we loved as
(08:29):
kids and fake promises of their collectability kind of popped
in nineteen ninety six and this massive store closers ensued,
and a foolish gamble from Marvel, which again we have
a lot of fun talking about on that whose Standerbot's
issue saw The publisher turned to Rob Eifeld and Jim Lee,
who had left found Image Comics, and they were given
(08:51):
the Avengers and the Fantastic Four with the freedom to
start a new storyline outside of ongoing Marvel continuity, and
the Onslaught crossover that we mentioned provided basically an in
story excuse that resulted in Heroes reborn, a misguided initiative
that only further deflated confidence in the publisher. During that time,
cap Irom Manthor and the Fantastic Four were off the table,
(09:14):
So in the throes of impending bankruptcy and ownership they
Marvel began to experiment and the most shocking and long
lasting of that was this Busiac and Bagley Thunderbolts, which
they were kind of able to do, this completely wild
swing for the fences. And as we've seen now you know,
we're in a situation where we're almost you know, decades later.
(09:36):
It had such an impact that we are having this
adaptation question mark influence question Mark. It's gonna be interesting
to see where it led.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
Yeah, do you think the reveal that Shield was Hydra
steals a little bit of this thunderas of the the
original idea of the thunderbolts, Like if they couldn't obviously
(10:09):
I think do a one to one adaptation. I think
because you know, we've already done one of the most
crazy twists in the MCU, which is that shockingly Shield
for a number of decades was secretly a neo Hydra,
neo Nazi organization run by Hydra at the highest levels.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
I think you make a great point. I definitely think
that's an issue they ran into, and I think that's
why we're getting this kind of reimagined later stage Thunderbolts.
And there has been times in the last few years
where now the Thunderbolts are more of this kind of
like a suicide squad for Marvel, which I think is
what they are kind of pushing them towards in this.
So yeah, but I think the Hydra Cap kind of
(10:54):
hydro Nazi stuff was so well done in the movies,
and then we even got that great throwback in you know,
endgame where Cap says like, Hail Hydra when he's in
the lift, so he doesn't have to have the fight like,
so we even get that, So yeah, I do think
that makes it harder. But I also think that we
are in an interesting situation with the MCU where we
(11:18):
are now in a time when the MCU isn't maybe
being looked at as kind of creatively bankrupt, just as
the way the comics were being looked at by then,
So could this be that return. I do think that
with the new trailers we've seen with Florence Pugh jumping
off the second tallest building in the world like nine
times getting her Tom cruise on and the kind of
(11:40):
a twenty four branding. I think they want us to
see this as a new era for the MCU, not
just in storytelling, but also in the way the movies
are made. So it could be interesting to see if
Thunderbolts acts and has that same impact as the comic
did all those years ago.
Speaker 2 (11:56):
Let me ask you this, this being you know, I
think one of the most impactful in a kind of
plot shape and marketing way impactful issue to Marvel's success
in the twenty first century. Do you have any like
what would be your favorite runs and or issues, let's
(12:20):
say your Mount Rushmore of nineties Marvel. Oh, and where
would Thunderbolts land on that Mount Rushmore?
Speaker 1 (12:29):
I think that I think that for the actual like
story of it, and kind of I would say, like
the for me, the notion of the Thunderbolts is cooler
than necessarily maybe the execution though I do remember deeply
like feeling like it's so important and great. But I
(12:53):
do think that for me, I can't help it, like
as a nineties kid, like the number one has to
be that X Men number one. I just remember so
deeply it coming out with that trifl cover and the
connecting issues, and obviously I was like not reading it
when it first came out because I would have been
(13:14):
like three, But I was probably reading it two years
later when I was five or six, and I just
thought it was the coolest thing in the whole world.
So that would definitely be up there for me, even
though ironically as an adult I now know it kind
of ended my favorite era of X Men, which is
Chris Clamont's X Men. Other ones I do think the
Infinity Gauntlets and stuff I Marvel work is yeah, unbelievable,
(13:39):
and the fact that it's basically like George Pez and
then Ron Limbs, so it's like people that I just
love so much. Infinity. You got Infinity Gauntlet ninety ninety one,
Infinity War ninety two, Infinity Crusade ninety three, which I
think is fantastically underrated and should definitely be checked out.
Other ones that I really love, I would say that now,
especially post Spider Verse and the impact, I would say
(14:02):
Spider Man twenty ninety nine is up there for me.
It's I think it's such a different, cool vibe. And
when you did your omnibus on it. It really like inspired
me to go back and kind of look at it
and explore that just how different it was to anything
that we'd ever really seen before, and the tone and
it's so extreme and so nineties, which is one of
(14:26):
my favorite things about the kind of that era.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
I definitely did not think that twenty ninety nine, that
Spider Man twenty ninety nine would have the impact that
it has.
Speaker 1 (14:38):
I thought it was cool.
Speaker 2 (14:39):
I definitely don't think we'd still be talking about a
Spider Man twenty ninety nine thirty years later.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
Yeah, right, that's kind of crazy. Also, really any for me,
I'm a big I'm a big lover of the X Men,
so all your kind of like you know, New Warriors
and stuff like that. If we're talking, Yeah, like those
eras I think were really good. Also, I would say aesthetically,
and something that I've still loved since then to this
(15:06):
day is Tom McFarland's Spider Man. I think that is
some of the best Spider Man we've we've ever had. Also,
that is, you know, something that we've talked a lot about,
but you're talking about some of the really great you know,
comic you're talking about like the Marvel Nights stuff. Some
of that started in the early, like the late nineties,
you know, when they were trying to work out what
(15:27):
would happen. So, like, you know Christopher Priest Black Panther,
which is just such an iconic reimagining of.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
The character that's up there.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
That's definitely I think that was like a game changer.
I would also say this is controversial. I'm sorry, guys,
I just but I do. I loved the Clone Sago
when I was a kid with Ben Riley. Like, I
know it's hated, I know the choice is hated, but
I think that had a huge impact on me. And
I remember that being another comic where when it was
kind of revealed this idea that Spider Man had never
(15:57):
been Spider Man. I was so shocked.
Speaker 2 (15:59):
I just true, it's crazy.
Speaker 1 (16:02):
It's a crazy reveal. Okay, so what are yours?
Speaker 2 (16:05):
I would go? I would go Generation X just Y
X slash Mutant spin off with a bunch of new
fun very nineties characters included I Love You, Chamber, Jubilee,
et cetera.
Speaker 1 (16:22):
I would go Christopher.
Speaker 2 (16:23):
Pries Black Panther because I think it was Yes, we
don't have the Marv the MCU version of T'Challa and
the Black Panther about that, and then I think, I
think the Infinity side, the George, I'll just call it
the George Peress Saga, Infinity Saga and Ultronunlimited.
Speaker 1 (16:43):
Those two, oh, those two are soga. Yeah. I would
also say you touched on something with gen X because
Chamber is one of my old time favorite characters, and also,
like Chris Pachallo, like what an artist like to me,
the nineties kind of stuff, and that was during the
Phalanx Covenant storyline, which is so inherently nineties. But yeah,
I think I think those are some good some good
(17:05):
reads if you guys want to want to check out
some other nineties stories that honestly still inspiring the MCU.
I do find it very interesting that we're in an
era now where those nineties comics, which at the time
you know, did sell so much, like think about Venom.
Venom is another they hated and hated Redesclined, But now
(17:30):
they are shaping these billion dollar the Studios Hope franchises
in a way that I think nobody could have ever
really seen. And I think that is a really interesting
space to be in, especially when a lot of those
creators are still active. Jim Lee is still there still
(17:50):
at DC. You know. Rob Liefeld still there, just relaunched
Young Blood, you know, Mark Civestriet is still just keeping
it going over it to number one, volume one, like fifteen, Like,
you know, it's definitely a really interesting time. And to
have a Thunderbolts comic Thunderbolts movie come out that is
essentially like weighing on the notion of like is it
(18:16):
gonna be the movie that saves the MCU? Like, yeah,
Wolverine Deadpool. It made a billion dollars, but it did
not set the MCU back on any track. You know,
it was almost the Elseworld's type story. So it's interesting
to be in this situation again and see see how
it shakes out.
Speaker 2 (18:33):
Well, what should we read next? What should we be
watching next? Let us know the discord. That's it for
this episode. Thanks for listening.
Speaker 1 (18:41):
I have a good day well.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
X ray Vision is hosted by Jason Gitsubsion and Rosie
Knight and is a production of iHeart Podcasts. Our executive
producers are Jewell Smith and Aaron Kaufman. Our supervising producer
is a Boo zafar Our. Producers are Carmen Laurent and
Mia Taylor. Our theme song is by Brian Basquez.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
Special thanks to Soul Rubin and Chris Laude, Kenny Goodman
and Heidi our discord moderator.
Hosts And Creators
Jason Concepcion
Rosie Knight
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