October 8, 2025 • 38 mins
Spooky season is here, and the Serial Killer content is coming for us all, but we have to ask WHY? And for who? Rosie and Jason are talking about the draw that serial killer biopics have and how it could be done better. In the end, they list their favorite fictional serial killer movies and TV!
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Warning today's episode do this. It's not gonna have any spoilers.
Don't worry about it. We talk about serial killers in
TV and movies.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
And TV because it's spooky season.
Speaker 3 (00:09):
But also it's a serious conversation. Oh I have that.
Here we go. Hello, it was Jason Gonzepsion.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
And I'm serious. Rosie Knight for a serious conversation.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
And welcome back to the x ray vision of the
podcast where we dive teap it's your favorite, chose movies,
comments to pop culture coming to you from my heart,
where we're bringing you three episodes a week.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
WHOA plus News.
Speaker 4 (00:43):
In today's episode, we are talking about serial killers in
TV and film and culture because of the new Ryan
Murphy project Monster and Gens story that Jason correctly described
in the group chat as dispicable, which I think is
the perfect right. We're gonna talk about our monster thoughts.
(01:05):
We're gonna talk about serial killer representation and TV. We're
also gonna look at serial killers in pop culture and
also American culture and British culture. What is it that's
so intriguing about a serial killer? And we've even got
some global serial killer thoughts too, because throughout the history.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
Of serial Killer TV.
Speaker 4 (01:26):
There have been many big breakout hits that have kind
of made that crossover across the world. So yes, but
first we're gonna talk about Monster, all right.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
Monster, and it's Ryan Murphy's latest installment in his American
Serial Killers.
Speaker 3 (01:48):
Oove.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
Yes, I haven't really even dug into he did Dama
obviously last.
Speaker 4 (01:55):
And no, you know what, it was Dama first, and
then I completely forgot that. In the middle was the
the one about the brothers who killed that parents because
that parents were abusive.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
Yes, allegedly believe that, and I believe that theory. But
but but yes, well, especially the Menez brothers.
Speaker 4 (02:14):
The Menendez brothers and off the Woods, they found out
after the brothers were they already in prison, they found
out that the dad, who was a record exec had
been like sexually abusing other people and the record industry.
Speaker 1 (02:25):
I'll just believe briefly, Yes, I'll say this briefly about
the Menendezes. There is many experts who have studied the
case and looked at the evidence believe that that their
actions and I'm not even talking about like the violence.
Speaker 3 (02:42):
I'm talking about like the.
Speaker 1 (02:43):
Interviews and the way that the brothers reacted to one
another and reacted to their parents were consistent with long
term child sexual abuse. And also, you know, watch any
of the documentaries about this really famous crime. Literally nobody
has any thing good to say about either of the victims.
And these are like their lawyers, their friends, like family
(03:05):
friends that are like, yeah, that guy was pit.
Speaker 2 (03:06):
And it's been decades now, like no, so you know,
and I will.
Speaker 4 (03:10):
Say, speaking of so, we know that the Dama show
was first, and I couldn't watch it. I know what
happened with DAMA. I don't have any I love Evan
Peters as an actor, but I have no interest. I'm
proud that Nisi Nash was able to be in there
and represent the real truth of that story about how
there was a black woman who lived next to Dharma
and her kids and they had actually saved one of
(03:32):
his victims and the police gave them back. But at
the same time, I don't think that we need a
show that is recreating the real gruesome deaths of people,
especially in that case a lot of gay black people
that is like also incredibly stylized and sexualized the menandez one.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
I didn't watch either because I had.
Speaker 4 (03:51):
Actually hoped that it would be a break in the case.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
I'd read a lot about how it was going to
pose those ideas, and it did.
Speaker 4 (04:00):
But it also and this is what's important to note
about the Monster shows and why I think they are
a problem. It also added an incest plot line which
was just made up, and Brian said, it's fictional, and
it's like it's not though.
Speaker 3 (04:13):
These are real people's lives.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
Monster, the ed Gen story starring Charlie Hunham as Ed
Dean Is, adds a concentration camp plot. Yeah, and again
despicable now here. Let me just say this, I am
a true crime fan in my personal life. Yes, I
(04:38):
don't I don't want to do content about it necessarily
because I don't think I have yet to encounter a
true crime podcast that wasn't in some form of fashion exploitive.
And lets you know, hu, some of them are ones
that really champion the victim. And but but it's hard
to find one that's unexploited. But I but I, for
(04:58):
reasons unknown that are mysterious to myself, know a lot
about these subjects and same and so I'll just say this, Uh,
here's my problem with both Monster and Dahmer and stories
of this ILK why One, it's hard to do a
(05:22):
story that follows the serial killer that doesn't necessarily stylize, heighten, whatever, make.
Speaker 3 (05:31):
A hero out of the serial killer. That's one. Two.
Speaker 5 (05:34):
In my.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
Weird and copious readings about many of these cases, I
can I feel like I could say this with some authority.
Generally speaking, every American serial killer story is basically a
story of.
Speaker 3 (05:50):
How the cops fucked up.
Speaker 1 (05:52):
That's exactly exactly famously you you you said it. There
was an infamous example of one of his victims escaping
but still kind of addled under the effects of the
drugs that he the Dahmer had had tried to apply
(06:14):
to him, and and Dahmer made this excuse that, oh,
we're gay lovers and we had a lover's spat, and
the cops laughed about it and then returned the victim
to do The.
Speaker 2 (06:24):
Victim was also am I not guys? So yes, it
was really bad.
Speaker 1 (06:28):
And so all of the you know, like the Golden
State Killer, like all of who was a cop at
one point in his current all of these stories are
basically the story of missed opportunities. So like what serial
killer stuff works for me? The serial stuff that works
is pure fiction or stuff like Manhunter that's like turned
(06:54):
into you know, you take real cases, but you turn
it into fiction, and it's primarily about like a confrontation
between like violence and the dark side of humanity and
it and it creates this fantasy of you know, what
if the FBI and the cops were actually good at
catching the.
Speaker 4 (07:10):
Exactly Well, this is I'm so glad you brought that up,
because I do believe that much of serial killer fiction
of that ILK like the mind Hunter and you know,
sbu CSI, all these shows that repeatedly introduce cyal they
are competency fantasies.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
They are silence of Silence.
Speaker 3 (07:30):
Of Red Dragon.
Speaker 4 (07:30):
Yeah, yeah, what if they really did know what they
were doing?
Speaker 6 (07:34):
You know?
Speaker 4 (07:34):
And that's for me, that's why I enjoy a more
either yeah, a more totally fictionalized like a Hannibal style show,
which I think has the stylization and also is a
show about how bad the cops are at their job
because they're working with Hannibal. And I think that you
make a really good point there about something that is
(07:55):
more interesting and.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
Intriguing, and I think that for me.
Speaker 4 (07:58):
I watched the first episode of The Eggear one because
I was like, you know what, I've seen many women
be killed.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
I love Texas Chainsaw Massacre.
Speaker 4 (08:05):
I think as one of the best endings, like most
hopeful endings of any movie in that genre. I love
the stories that were kind of created, the fictional life story.
So I was like, I probably won't find this one offensive.
Within five minutes, they had this guy naked self asphyxiating
on the door where he gets caught by his mother
who then you know, has to dress him down and
(08:28):
embarrass him. And he's completely ripped and buff and if
you've ever seen a picture of Edgie and that is
not the case and.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
Justly too hot to play a game doing like just
just be chilled out.
Speaker 4 (08:44):
Guys like Ryan Murphy go back to the fictionalized tales.
He's very offensive to me personally.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
Here's what I found despicable about what the episodes of
Monster that I watched, And again, Ryan Murphy must be stopped.
Speaker 3 (09:01):
Someone must put a stop to this.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
Sally.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
There's a scene that essentially launches the concentration camp plot.
This is crazy to even be saying this. It's the
story ed ed is presented with photos from World War
Two that as that another character got like from their
(09:26):
brother who's like a reporter or some kind of journalist
over there and taking a bunch of pictures and some
of them are concentrations, and and Ed Dean gets so
like inspired, kind of aroused in the creation man is
that yes by this and it gives him ideas?
Speaker 3 (09:50):
And at that point I was just like I.
Speaker 1 (09:52):
Can't believe we're now We're gonna watch this guy for
eight episodes and then when they actually did Zone of Interest, stop,
I'll dive into this completely, Like why is this connected
to this story?
Speaker 4 (10:05):
It's because Ryan Murphy wanted to make like an exploitative
like she Wolf of the SS style movie.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
But it's just like odd, why is this crazy? This?
Speaker 3 (10:17):
Yeah, she literally is.
Speaker 2 (10:19):
Vicky Cripes is playing her.
Speaker 5 (10:21):
And it's sorry for Vicky me too because she's a
great actress, but like, yeah, this is a real Nazi
war criminal and they have her like flaying the skin
off fucking Jewish people and shit, like what the fuck,
Ryan Murphy, I don't to me.
Speaker 4 (10:36):
And look, she says that her family has like a
personal connection to the Holocaust, and she her grandfather was
in a concentration camp, so to her, there's like this
personal connection. I'm sorry, I just think that Brian Murphy
needs to be stopped. Like it's not even this is
the thing, like Monster hilariously was not even gonna be
really a topic point here. We just wanted to look
(10:57):
at Serial Killer TV. But I was astonished by the
show and by by kind of like what is seen
as acceptable when you're telling a fictionalized version of the truth.
But he is just adding like so much stuff. It
was never that was never, ever, ever ever a part
(11:17):
of It's the kind of like the based on a
true story thing at the beginning, it's giving the Fargo
version where they just made it up. It's like there's
so much addition and I would say lack of responsibility
by this person, who, by the way, also like drove
his car through striking workers at while the strikes were.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
Run, so like that happened, yes, allegedly.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
Let's let's take a let's teak a quick break, and
we'll be back to talk about why these stories fascinus.
Speaker 3 (12:04):
And we're back.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
So let's talk about serial killers on on TV and
in movies again. I do think that this is this
is a genre that is one that holds a lot
of power to fascinate and to entertain, And yet I
looking at the list of really like I guess.
Speaker 2 (12:29):
Important, Yeah, like the the kind of big movies.
Speaker 1 (12:32):
In this genre TV and yeah, it's it's always, always, always,
with a few rare exceptions, the story of some fictional
killer who is an amalgam of other killers. Uh Fritz
Lang's m for instance, which I saw in uh like
film appreciation class, and was.
Speaker 4 (12:54):
I was gonna say, it's such a legendary movie.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
You know, Hitchcock's Psycho Texas Chainsaw mass which is presented
as a real thing and of course is just simply
a horror movie.
Speaker 5 (13:05):
Is but it's also based loosely has elements of Gan
and yeah.
Speaker 4 (13:09):
Peeping Tom Texas Chainsaw Massacre, the early wave was based
on a game. But I think that M is such
an interesting thing to bring up, because that's thirty years.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
Before any of those movies and before.
Speaker 4 (13:23):
Gans and hornors have been found. So what do you
think it is even then for someone like Fritz Flang Metropolis,
someone who's made such incredible yeah, you know, films. What
do you think it is about that idea? I guess
it's the the understanding that you get when you're like
a teenager, right, or maybe a kid, and for the
(13:44):
first time you kind of realize that there's a huge
social contract that all of us are part of. Like
when somebody's driving their car down the street, they get
into the car and they make a social contract that
they're not just going to run you over, right, And
there's kind of this basis.
Speaker 2 (13:58):
That you just have to trust every one else in society.
Speaker 4 (14:01):
And I think that the fear of well, what if
somebody did the worst thing is always like an It's
kind of like a rumination or like an intrusive thought.
And I think throughout human culture it has permeated.
Speaker 2 (14:17):
These ideas of killers or monsters, and I.
Speaker 4 (14:19):
Just think it's so interesting and it's such a big
part of modern culture, like especially when we talk about
someone like Ryan.
Speaker 2 (14:27):
Murphy that's shaping Netflix. That's a billion views.
Speaker 4 (14:32):
That's more people than have ever watched TV are watching
TV nowadays, and those stories are still there, you know,
almost one hundred years later.
Speaker 1 (14:42):
I think that there's a very strong folkloric aspect to it.
There is a possibly fictitious German serial killer from the
late Middle Ages early Modern period called christmin gin It.
I can't even pronounce his but it's ch Tienga or
something like that. And you know, this was a period
(15:04):
of time where travel was hazardous, there was no police,
know anything on the roads.
Speaker 3 (15:11):
People would just kind of disappear.
Speaker 1 (15:13):
And this was a this Christman character was like a
Boogeyman esque bandit that lurked in the woods and that would,
you know, waylay caravans and steal kids and kill people,
et cetera. And I think that is that dynamic is
(15:33):
the basis of why these stories still work. The idea
that to your point, that there are real monsters who
lurk at the border of civilization, who you know, kind
of hunt among us and that do these horrendous things
and get away with it for a long time like
(15:55):
that is really scary and compelling.
Speaker 3 (15:58):
I used to.
Speaker 1 (16:01):
Pat Olswald's Michelle McNamara, the unbelievable reporter and historian who
is the late wife of Pat Oswald. She had a
blog called True Crime Diary, and what I appreciated about
her was she always covered these stories in a way
that brought the tragedy of the events to the forefront.
(16:23):
This wound that hasn't healed because no one knows who
committed x y Z crimes. And I think that that
is part of why these stories still fascinate. It's this
idea that somebody is so devoted to harm and evil
and hurting people that they would come up with these
(16:45):
ways to carry out their you know, vile fantasies and.
Speaker 3 (16:51):
Seemingly get away with it.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
And I think Fritz Lang's m has a lot of
the core things that still work, which are this idea
that you know, the killer lourks among us, this idea
that that the police, the authorities are completely use the cybergast,
they don't know what to do. Like an m this
person is eventually caught by an alliance between the the
(17:18):
like organized crime community in Germany, the police and the
local people all together working to find this this character.
And I think that kind of idea that the regular structures,
(17:38):
the organizations that should protect us from this kind of
thing aren't working, that is a fearful and potent metaphor.
And I think one that has been a fearful and
potent metaphor, you know, for many, many many years, going
back to this Christman character who reportedly murdered a thousand people,
if he was even.
Speaker 4 (17:57):
Real exactly or if it was, if he wasn't just
like five different guys that they just.
Speaker 2 (18:04):
Hundred.
Speaker 4 (18:05):
Yeah, I'm glad you put that up because I think
that obviously, coming from England, you know, serial killer culture
is a huge part of our history because of Jack
the Ripper and an unsolved crime. You know, depending on
which version you read, there are many different theories about
who he was. But again, it is a story historically
about the police failing, and also if you read you
(18:29):
Know from Hell or you read some different versions, it's
also about corruption and how the elite will protect their
own and I think those stories are eternally interesting and
they also shape our culture to a crazy point, like
I think a lot of people, for example skipping you know,
almost one hundred years but Scream was actually based on
(18:52):
real killings that I love those movies and I think
that they are so fun and so great and Kevin
Williamson and Wes Craven it's like an unstoppable team.
Speaker 2 (19:02):
But when I first was.
Speaker 4 (19:03):
Just randomly watching you know, Ion or something, and they
did an episode about it, I was like, fuck, Like,
imagine if that was your family, Like imagine if your
daughter was one of the people who got killed and
then they make entertainment out of it. And obviously, like
I said, Jack, Jack the Ripper, hundreds of TV shows
and movies about that in England, and so when I
(19:25):
moved to America, I was very interested in the fact
that Jack Ripper here definitely has that outrageous like you know,
they're making like Jack the Ripper in the Time Machine
because it's an out of license character. Jack the Ripper
comes back to London again. But then I read a
book that just totally blew my mind, and I know,
(19:46):
Jason that this is definitely your kind of thing. I
read The Devil in the White City by Eric Larsi,
which is like such an unbelievable book about how there is,
you know, the guy who's seen by many as kind
of the first major working serial killer in America, and
how he is his life kind of was changed and
(20:10):
shaped by the Chicago Worlds Fair and how that was
able to kind of hide what he was doing. And
that was such a brilliantly written and responsible book that
still was just as engaging as reading a thriller. And
after that I was like, Okay, I've got to try
and find more people who look at it from this way,
(20:30):
because It is so different from the many YA books
or thriller books or whatever that I've read where they
deal with it. For example, huge spate of YA thrillers
inspired by Amanda Knox. They those exist everywhere and stuff
like that, and they always are kind of salacious and
have a crazy twist. Devil in the White City was
(20:51):
a study of humanity and the time period that was
so interesting, and I think that tying it back to TV,
the only thing that I've seen people respond to in
a similar way that is fictional is Mind Hunter. I
feel like that when that came out, people suddenly were interested,
even though you know it's copaganda. It's promoting this idea
(21:13):
that the FBI knew what they were doing in a
bigger sense than they necessarily did.
Speaker 2 (21:18):
But it was very serious and.
Speaker 3 (21:20):
Thoughtful, and yet I enjoyed.
Speaker 2 (21:23):
Very factually based in truth.
Speaker 4 (21:26):
So I think that there's an interesting scope of serial
killer stories that go from the ultimate B movie like
Texas Chainsaw Massacre, which was banned and was made for
you know, less than a million dollars two the highest
budget David Fincher exploration of this, and that to me
(21:47):
is like really a wide scope to show just how
popular and intriguing that this exploration of like the dark
side of humanity really is people.
Speaker 7 (22:00):
We'll be right back after a quick break, and we're back.
Speaker 1 (22:19):
You mentioned that it is a big part of American culture.
I mean it clearly is Do you think that? Do
you think that serial killers are for some reason, like
a bigger part of American cult pop culture than they
are other places?
Speaker 2 (22:35):
I don't.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
It's an interesting question and I don't disagree, although I
feel like I don't have another info.
Speaker 2 (22:43):
It feels more prominent here.
Speaker 4 (22:46):
For example, like when Luther came out right at TV show,
I absolutely loved it, Yourselba starring, incredible writing, so hyper
fantastical that it almost felt like it was not about
cops or not about a real world. And also here's
a cop who's constantly flawed, constantly failing. But when that
(23:08):
show came out, its representation of serial killers was so
crazy and fantastical and incredible, and I was like, WHOA,
this is like a horror TV show. I've never really
seen England do anything like this. So then I was
looking back at O the serial killers and serial killer
programming and serial killer movies, and they do exist in England.
Speaker 2 (23:30):
But I think.
Speaker 4 (23:31):
Maybe what I hadn't really realized until this conversation is
maybe it seems like serial killers are more prominent here
just because we live in the capital of like most
entertainment that comes out.
Speaker 2 (23:44):
In the West, you know.
Speaker 4 (23:45):
So I think I do feel like there are probably
brilliant people who have drawn this line. But I also
feel like there are probably really interesting takes about how
serial killer TV and film are so prominent here because
of how violent American history is.
Speaker 2 (24:01):
But also that would.
Speaker 4 (24:03):
Not explain why it's not in England the ultimate original,
you know, violent colonizer. So I'm very interested in what
it draws, what draws people to it, And I think, yeah,
I just think in America that there is more of
it being made, and I'm and more types of it
being made.
Speaker 2 (24:23):
For example, you have Something two thousand and four.
Speaker 4 (24:27):
You have James Wan and Leewan or they you know,
come from Australia. They come with their little billy puppet
and they make Sore. One of the becomes one of
the hugest franchise films of all time. It's like massive,
it's super gory and gross.
Speaker 1 (24:43):
As us like By is like basically the hero of
the film.
Speaker 2 (24:47):
Yes, by the time you get to the end. But
he's a good guy.
Speaker 4 (24:52):
Well that's also interesting because that leads to the kind
of righteous serial killer and that hannimal. But also I
think the thing that's crazy is so Saws made. You know,
Lionsgate makes it two thousand and four. Three years later,
Fincher makes Zodiac. Those are probably two of the most.
Speaker 6 (25:11):
Different vibe athletic movies of all time, but are made
within three years of each other and are on the
same topic and subject.
Speaker 3 (25:22):
But like that it's a good point. Yeah, that's the
great point.
Speaker 4 (25:26):
The scope of like how much of this stuff is
being made and how different it is and how interesting
it is.
Speaker 2 (25:32):
And I'm I'm just intrigued. Why it's not a question
we can answer.
Speaker 1 (25:36):
I think is like, yeah, I think those two movies
give us give us the two basically the binary approaches
that they're exactly exactly the one is the serial killer
is kind of the main character, and so you either
do like pure horror movie or you do like righteous
(25:59):
serial Killer, and it's all about like the process and
how smart they're.
Speaker 2 (26:04):
Why do they do it, and how do they do it?
Speaker 1 (26:07):
Yeah, how they're carrying out these like elaborate schemes to
as a form of catharsis for some really really terrible
thing that either happened to them or they're trying to
riskify or they're trying to rectify through torturing these different characters.
Speaker 5 (26:21):
Right.
Speaker 1 (26:22):
And then the the Fincher approach, which is the more
kind of like quote unquote highbrow approach, which I agree
is a little bit more subtle approach.
Speaker 3 (26:29):
Is about because you know, in.
Speaker 1 (26:33):
Uh in Zodiac, there is kind of like the presence
of the Zodiac is there, and you're focused on these
conflict trying right, there's like a confrontation between various suspects
who may or may not be the Zodiac, but it's
really about a confrontation with the dark side of the
(26:53):
human soul and how you're how a character's obsession with
unlocking this mystery can be as toxic as the forces
unleashed by the violence that The Manhunter is kind of
like that too, where it's it's less about we got
to solve these crimes, and it's more about like, can
(27:15):
you stare into the darkness of the human soul and
come away exactly touched, you know, and stained by that?
Speaker 4 (27:22):
That's why for me like Zodiac is. I think it's
It's one of my old time favorite movies. I go
between that and Gonir being my favorite Fincher movie. I
think Zodiac is really depressing, and I think that is
how it should feel to watch a movie about a
serial killer.
Speaker 2 (27:36):
You should feel like it's depressing.
Speaker 4 (27:38):
It ruins people's lives, it drags them in. I think
that is the really really responsible way. I think something
the other end of that would be, to me, like
a you know, something like an American Psycho where you
go so extreme, or a Hannibal on TV show on NBC,
like where you go so extreme that you'll actual realm
(28:00):
of popular. Yeah, and Hannibal he you know what, Hannibal
just kills people who are rude and unculturn, and that.
Speaker 5 (28:07):
He does.
Speaker 4 (28:11):
Righteous to watch because you can feel righteous in it
without also you know, being like, well, I'm really going
to go out and chop a person up and turn
him into a beautiful like dead people.
Speaker 2 (28:21):
Mural like Hannibal does.
Speaker 4 (28:23):
The killings are so extreme that nobody is doing them,
So I think it's an interesting and interesting scope.
Speaker 2 (28:30):
And I would also say I don't.
Speaker 4 (28:32):
Know if there's any I guess this is the nature
of Hollywood and filmmaking. But to me, the fact that
you can have like true crime shows that are made
on a budget of nothing that are so huge and
such a big part of culture all around the world. Right,
And they feed into this notion of the serial killer,
and they talk about the serial killer and they show
(28:53):
you about the different people who have killed because I
believe in the old days a serial killer cat to
kill three people and now I think it's two, and
then they become classed as a serial killer. But like
that is the lowest budget form of TV. But then
you also have you know, Martin Scorsese making Killing of
the Flower Moon and it's nominated for ten Oscars. And
(29:15):
I think that is what I find so intriguing about.
Speaker 2 (29:18):
This is it is told.
Speaker 4 (29:20):
These stories are told and accepted and in like investigated
and interrogated and watched by every single kind of person.
Speaker 2 (29:31):
That's what I think is most interesting about it.
Speaker 1 (29:33):
Okay, Rosie, your favorite serial killer type story?
Speaker 2 (29:42):
Okay, ooh, this is so hard. I will say.
Speaker 4 (29:47):
I do think if there's one that I will argue
for an artistic merit and that I just love and
Rewatch the most, I will say it's Hannibal, because I
think Hannibal is an incredible show, incredible cost I think
that it plays with the ideas of what a procedural
(30:07):
drama can be, and.
Speaker 2 (30:09):
Also it is queer, it is complex.
Speaker 4 (30:14):
The third season is essentially a kind of an art
house movie set in Venice and Europe and is completely
abstract and strange. So I do think I think that's
up there with one of the best that we've ever got.
But like I said, I think Zodiac movie wise is
one of the best movies, but one of the best
crime movies we've ever had, but definitely one of the
(30:35):
best there.
Speaker 1 (30:36):
What about you, Jason, I will say I love I
do love Man Hunter, I love.
Speaker 3 (30:46):
Zodiac.
Speaker 1 (30:47):
But for me, the most haunting, the most haunting of
this type of story that I've ever seen, is The Vanishing,
the Dutch original Dutch version of the movie, not the
adaptation starring Jeff Bridges. The Vanishing is.
Speaker 2 (31:11):
Unbelievably Jason.
Speaker 1 (31:13):
It's just like one of the scariest movies I have
ever seen in my entire life. And what happens is
this young couple is out on a road trip Dutch
couple and the girlfriend gets out of the car to
get something at like a gas station roadside gas and
(31:35):
never comes back to the car, and the man is like,
can't it's such a huge.
Speaker 3 (31:42):
It's such a shock.
Speaker 1 (31:44):
And such a devastating, abrupt tragedy, someone literally like walking
out of frame and never coming back. And it's and
he can't stop trying to unravel the mystery of what happened,
and eventually the killer or someone who knows about the
(32:04):
killing contacts him is like, oh, you want to know
what happened, I'll show you. And from there I won't
spoil it cause you want to watch it because it's
I will say it in spooky season and this is
ski season.
Speaker 4 (32:17):
I will warn you, guys, this is a rare movie.
Like I will tell you, like, yeah, be careful going
into this. If you don't like this is a scary one,
this ship.
Speaker 2 (32:25):
Will haunt you. I have a great, lovely.
Speaker 4 (32:28):
Group of friends that we do discord horror movies every year,
and we watched this and I was waiting for everyone
to finish it, and it was when the end hits.
It's legit one of the most haunting things that you've
ever seen. And it's so scary, and you constantly think
about it, and sadly the American remake, which is interesting.
Speaker 2 (32:47):
And change its change.
Speaker 1 (32:51):
I would also say my other the end, I'll just
say this, and again not to spoiling it is so
jaw dropping in yeah, in its ruthlessness and scariness of it,
and you're not.
Speaker 3 (33:11):
I've seen a million scary movies. I don't get scared.
This movie shakes you.
Speaker 4 (33:15):
It does because also this, I think, I'm really glad
you brought this up, because I do think that there
is an element of naturalistic horror very.
Speaker 1 (33:24):
It feels like it feels like a real case. It's
exactly real thing.
Speaker 2 (33:29):
Yeah, it does. I think that's such a great pull.
Speaker 4 (33:31):
Another one like that I remember, especially when we were young,
Jason Henry Portrait of a serial.
Speaker 3 (33:37):
Ialked about it. Well, actually bothers me.
Speaker 4 (33:42):
Yeah, it's so close and feels so real and raw
that you do believe it.
Speaker 2 (33:48):
And I think that is true, even though now.
Speaker 4 (33:50):
Obviously it does feel a little bit dated and some people,
you know, leather Face has become this kind of you know,
three D movie monster who you can watch in ten
other films, But the does Texas Chainsaw Massacre has that
to the point where that movie was banned in England
until the year two thousand, right because it had horrified
people so much when they saw it and they believed
(34:11):
it was real.
Speaker 2 (34:11):
So I think you're onto something there.
Speaker 4 (34:14):
That is a really interesting creepy aspect of this, which
are the really low budget movies.
Speaker 2 (34:21):
I think another one I watched years ago is called
Like Long Pigs.
Speaker 4 (34:23):
That was like one of those weird, like creepy pasta
esque like is it really released is it not? And yeah,
I think that element, the low budget to the point
where it starts to feel like it's real, is another
really scary aspect. Okay, Jason, what is your most out
their time that you've seen like a serial killer story?
So for me, in England, every year at the holiday period,
(34:49):
which for us really is Christmas, right in the lead up,
all the soap operas have big storylines and sometimes there
will be a bus that crashes and it will be
in the center of town and everyone would die.
Speaker 2 (35:00):
But more often than not it is a serial killer.
They have so many serial killers in British.
Speaker 4 (35:05):
Soaps, Like there's a woman in Coronation Street called Sally
and I think she's been married to like two serial killers,
So like that to me is the thing that's really
funny is like they push their way into these spaces
that aren't even scary, Like the soap opera versions of
them are never scary. They're just somebody who is they're killing,
who has a financial reason or you know, is a weirdo.
(35:26):
But that always kind of blew my mind that they
even make their way into entertainment where usually it's just
about like people sleeping with each other's husbands on this
you know, little street in East London or in up
North or something.
Speaker 2 (35:40):
So for me, that's.
Speaker 4 (35:40):
Always the one that I'm like, Wow, serial killers, you
really made it.
Speaker 2 (35:44):
Guys. You're in the soap operas. How about you? What's
the weirdest place you've seen a serial killer story?
Speaker 3 (35:51):
Uh?
Speaker 1 (35:51):
You know, I think the Christmas season is another one. Yeah, Listen,
I remember Renting as a child, Uh Silent Night, Deadly Night,
like legendary as like not like a nine ten year
old because my friends told me it.
Speaker 3 (36:05):
Was really scary. It was kind of scary, but.
Speaker 2 (36:07):
It's a movie.
Speaker 1 (36:09):
It's a very very I found the other things in
that movie that are weird much more troubling than that. Yes, yeah,
I feel like we should ask Carmen her favorite serial
killer movie and or TV show.
Speaker 2 (36:24):
Yeah, I might calm and put it in the chat,
put it in the track.
Speaker 3 (36:26):
Put it in the chat so we could get one.
Speaker 1 (36:29):
And and I worry for Carmen to do that. I
will also silence of the Lambs all day everything. Oh yeah,
I mean sounds the lambs.
Speaker 2 (36:36):
She's a silence of.
Speaker 3 (36:37):
The Lamb's lover.
Speaker 2 (36:38):
What can you say? I mean, who does? She also
loves long legs, so a lot of crossover.
Speaker 1 (36:42):
Yeah, and so I'll just say, oh my god, Aaron
Shrek forever after And so with that, I'll just say
Ryan Murphy must be stopped. He's got to be type
this type of framing that puts the serial killer at
the scent of the story in a way that it
is sexy empisode, Yes, so exploitative, where it's like why
(37:05):
am I I don't want to unwind his mind?
Speaker 3 (37:08):
No, I don't want to do that. I don't want
to know.
Speaker 2 (37:11):
Like why he does it?
Speaker 4 (37:12):
Like I don't want to see him imagining no neon
like Nazi concentration exactly.
Speaker 2 (37:18):
Donna, don't say stop that, man.
Speaker 4 (37:22):
But yeah, you can see we were so we were
so stressed about Monster that we made a whole episode,
So yeah, Ryan Murphy, stop that man.
Speaker 2 (37:28):
Despicable.
Speaker 4 (37:29):
But if you guys have any insights into why these
stories are such a big part of our culture and
how they infiltrate every part from you know, cheaply made
true crime to Martin Scorsese movies, join the discord hit
us up because I do think this is one of
the most interesting cultural conversations.
Speaker 2 (37:48):
That is just going to keep on being had.
Speaker 4 (37:51):
Next time on xtra Vision, we will be calling together
the group chat to talk about the new Triple A game,
Ghosts of Yote. We're the voice of Atsu Eric.
Speaker 3 (38:02):
That's it for this episode. Next for listening.
Speaker 1 (38:04):
Bye x ray Vision is hosted by Jason steps Young
and Rosie Knight and is a production of iHeart Podcasts.
Speaker 4 (38:11):
Our executive producers are Joel Monique and Aaron Kaufman.
Speaker 3 (38:15):
Our supervising producer is Abu Zafar.
Speaker 2 (38:18):
Our producers are Common Laurent Dean Jonathan and Fay Wag.
Speaker 1 (38:22):
Our theme song is by Brian Vasquez, with alternate theme
songs by Aaron Kaufman.
Speaker 4 (38:26):
Special thanks to Soul Rubin, Chris Lord, Kenny Goodman, and
Heidi Our discord moderator,
Warning today's episode do this. It's not gonna have any spoilers.
Don't worry about it. We talk about serial killers in
TV and movies.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
And TV because it's spooky season.
Speaker 3 (00:09):
But also it's a serious conversation. Oh I have that.
Here we go. Hello, it was Jason Gonzepsion.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
And I'm serious. Rosie Knight for a serious conversation.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
And welcome back to the x ray vision of the
podcast where we dive teap it's your favorite, chose movies,
comments to pop culture coming to you from my heart,
where we're bringing you three episodes a week.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
WHOA plus News.
Speaker 4 (00:43):
In today's episode, we are talking about serial killers in
TV and film and culture because of the new Ryan
Murphy project Monster and Gens story that Jason correctly described
in the group chat as dispicable, which I think is
the perfect right. We're gonna talk about our monster thoughts.
(01:05):
We're gonna talk about serial killer representation and TV. We're
also gonna look at serial killers in pop culture and
also American culture and British culture. What is it that's
so intriguing about a serial killer? And we've even got
some global serial killer thoughts too, because throughout the history.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
Of serial Killer TV.
Speaker 4 (01:26):
There have been many big breakout hits that have kind
of made that crossover across the world. So yes, but
first we're gonna talk about Monster, all right.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
Monster, and it's Ryan Murphy's latest installment in his American
Serial Killers.
Speaker 3 (01:48):
Oove.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
Yes, I haven't really even dug into he did Dama
obviously last.
Speaker 4 (01:55):
And no, you know what, it was Dama first, and
then I completely forgot that. In the middle was the
the one about the brothers who killed that parents because
that parents were abusive.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
Yes, allegedly believe that, and I believe that theory. But
but but yes, well, especially the Menez brothers.
Speaker 4 (02:14):
The Menendez brothers and off the Woods, they found out
after the brothers were they already in prison, they found
out that the dad, who was a record exec had
been like sexually abusing other people and the record industry.
Speaker 1 (02:25):
I'll just believe briefly, Yes, I'll say this briefly about
the Menendezes. There is many experts who have studied the
case and looked at the evidence believe that that their
actions and I'm not even talking about like the violence.
Speaker 3 (02:42):
I'm talking about like the.
Speaker 1 (02:43):
Interviews and the way that the brothers reacted to one
another and reacted to their parents were consistent with long
term child sexual abuse. And also, you know, watch any
of the documentaries about this really famous crime. Literally nobody
has any thing good to say about either of the victims.
And these are like their lawyers, their friends, like family
(03:05):
friends that are like, yeah, that guy was pit.
Speaker 2 (03:06):
And it's been decades now, like no, so you know,
and I will.
Speaker 4 (03:10):
Say, speaking of so, we know that the Dama show
was first, and I couldn't watch it. I know what
happened with DAMA. I don't have any I love Evan
Peters as an actor, but I have no interest. I'm
proud that Nisi Nash was able to be in there
and represent the real truth of that story about how
there was a black woman who lived next to Dharma
and her kids and they had actually saved one of
(03:32):
his victims and the police gave them back. But at
the same time, I don't think that we need a
show that is recreating the real gruesome deaths of people,
especially in that case a lot of gay black people
that is like also incredibly stylized and sexualized the menandez one.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
I didn't watch either because I had.
Speaker 4 (03:51):
Actually hoped that it would be a break in the case.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
I'd read a lot about how it was going to
pose those ideas, and it did.
Speaker 4 (04:00):
But it also and this is what's important to note
about the Monster shows and why I think they are
a problem. It also added an incest plot line which
was just made up, and Brian said, it's fictional, and
it's like it's not though.
Speaker 3 (04:13):
These are real people's lives.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
Monster, the ed Gen story starring Charlie Hunham as Ed
Dean Is, adds a concentration camp plot. Yeah, and again
despicable now here. Let me just say this, I am
a true crime fan in my personal life. Yes, I
(04:38):
don't I don't want to do content about it necessarily
because I don't think I have yet to encounter a
true crime podcast that wasn't in some form of fashion exploitive.
And lets you know, hu, some of them are ones
that really champion the victim. And but but it's hard
to find one that's unexploited. But I but I, for
(04:58):
reasons unknown that are mysterious to myself, know a lot
about these subjects and same and so I'll just say this, Uh,
here's my problem with both Monster and Dahmer and stories
of this ILK why One, it's hard to do a
(05:22):
story that follows the serial killer that doesn't necessarily stylize, heighten, whatever, make.
Speaker 3 (05:31):
A hero out of the serial killer. That's one. Two.
Speaker 5 (05:34):
In my.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
Weird and copious readings about many of these cases, I
can I feel like I could say this with some authority.
Generally speaking, every American serial killer story is basically a
story of.
Speaker 3 (05:50):
How the cops fucked up.
Speaker 1 (05:52):
That's exactly exactly famously you you you said it. There
was an infamous example of one of his victims escaping
but still kind of addled under the effects of the
drugs that he the Dahmer had had tried to apply
(06:14):
to him, and and Dahmer made this excuse that, oh,
we're gay lovers and we had a lover's spat, and
the cops laughed about it and then returned the victim
to do The.
Speaker 2 (06:24):
Victim was also am I not guys? So yes, it
was really bad.
Speaker 1 (06:28):
And so all of the you know, like the Golden
State Killer, like all of who was a cop at
one point in his current all of these stories are
basically the story of missed opportunities. So like what serial
killer stuff works for me? The serial stuff that works
is pure fiction or stuff like Manhunter that's like turned
(06:54):
into you know, you take real cases, but you turn
it into fiction, and it's primarily about like a confrontation
between like violence and the dark side of humanity and
it and it creates this fantasy of you know, what
if the FBI and the cops were actually good at
catching the.
Speaker 4 (07:10):
Exactly Well, this is I'm so glad you brought that up,
because I do believe that much of serial killer fiction
of that ILK like the mind Hunter and you know,
sbu CSI, all these shows that repeatedly introduce cyal they
are competency fantasies.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
They are silence of Silence.
Speaker 3 (07:30):
Of Red Dragon.
Speaker 4 (07:30):
Yeah, yeah, what if they really did know what they
were doing?
Speaker 6 (07:34):
You know?
Speaker 4 (07:34):
And that's for me, that's why I enjoy a more
either yeah, a more totally fictionalized like a Hannibal style show,
which I think has the stylization and also is a
show about how bad the cops are at their job
because they're working with Hannibal. And I think that you
make a really good point there about something that is
(07:55):
more interesting and.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
Intriguing, and I think that for me.
Speaker 4 (07:58):
I watched the first episode of The Eggear one because
I was like, you know what, I've seen many women
be killed.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
I love Texas Chainsaw Massacre.
Speaker 4 (08:05):
I think as one of the best endings, like most
hopeful endings of any movie in that genre. I love
the stories that were kind of created, the fictional life story.
So I was like, I probably won't find this one offensive.
Within five minutes, they had this guy naked self asphyxiating
on the door where he gets caught by his mother
who then you know, has to dress him down and
(08:28):
embarrass him. And he's completely ripped and buff and if
you've ever seen a picture of Edgie and that is
not the case and.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
Justly too hot to play a game doing like just
just be chilled out.
Speaker 4 (08:44):
Guys like Ryan Murphy go back to the fictionalized tales.
He's very offensive to me personally.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
Here's what I found despicable about what the episodes of
Monster that I watched, And again, Ryan Murphy must be stopped.
Speaker 3 (09:01):
Someone must put a stop to this.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
Sally.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
There's a scene that essentially launches the concentration camp plot.
This is crazy to even be saying this. It's the
story ed ed is presented with photos from World War
Two that as that another character got like from their
(09:26):
brother who's like a reporter or some kind of journalist
over there and taking a bunch of pictures and some
of them are concentrations, and and Ed Dean gets so
like inspired, kind of aroused in the creation man is
that yes by this and it gives him ideas?
Speaker 3 (09:50):
And at that point I was just like I.
Speaker 1 (09:52):
Can't believe we're now We're gonna watch this guy for
eight episodes and then when they actually did Zone of Interest, stop,
I'll dive into this completely, Like why is this connected
to this story?
Speaker 4 (10:05):
It's because Ryan Murphy wanted to make like an exploitative
like she Wolf of the SS style movie.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
But it's just like odd, why is this crazy? This?
Speaker 3 (10:17):
Yeah, she literally is.
Speaker 2 (10:19):
Vicky Cripes is playing her.
Speaker 5 (10:21):
And it's sorry for Vicky me too because she's a
great actress, but like, yeah, this is a real Nazi
war criminal and they have her like flaying the skin
off fucking Jewish people and shit, like what the fuck,
Ryan Murphy, I don't to me.
Speaker 4 (10:36):
And look, she says that her family has like a
personal connection to the Holocaust, and she her grandfather was
in a concentration camp, so to her, there's like this
personal connection. I'm sorry, I just think that Brian Murphy
needs to be stopped. Like it's not even this is
the thing, like Monster hilariously was not even gonna be
really a topic point here. We just wanted to look
(10:57):
at Serial Killer TV. But I was astonished by the
show and by by kind of like what is seen
as acceptable when you're telling a fictionalized version of the truth.
But he is just adding like so much stuff. It
was never that was never, ever, ever ever a part
(11:17):
of It's the kind of like the based on a
true story thing at the beginning, it's giving the Fargo
version where they just made it up. It's like there's
so much addition and I would say lack of responsibility
by this person, who, by the way, also like drove
his car through striking workers at while the strikes were.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
Run, so like that happened, yes, allegedly.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
Let's let's take a let's teak a quick break, and
we'll be back to talk about why these stories fascinus.
Speaker 3 (12:04):
And we're back.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
So let's talk about serial killers on on TV and
in movies again. I do think that this is this
is a genre that is one that holds a lot
of power to fascinate and to entertain, And yet I
looking at the list of really like I guess.
Speaker 2 (12:29):
Important, Yeah, like the the kind of big movies.
Speaker 1 (12:32):
In this genre TV and yeah, it's it's always, always, always,
with a few rare exceptions, the story of some fictional
killer who is an amalgam of other killers. Uh Fritz
Lang's m for instance, which I saw in uh like
film appreciation class, and was.
Speaker 4 (12:54):
I was gonna say, it's such a legendary movie.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
You know, Hitchcock's Psycho Texas Chainsaw mass which is presented
as a real thing and of course is just simply
a horror movie.
Speaker 5 (13:05):
Is but it's also based loosely has elements of Gan
and yeah.
Speaker 4 (13:09):
Peeping Tom Texas Chainsaw Massacre, the early wave was based
on a game. But I think that M is such
an interesting thing to bring up, because that's thirty years.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
Before any of those movies and before.
Speaker 4 (13:23):
Gans and hornors have been found. So what do you
think it is even then for someone like Fritz Flang Metropolis,
someone who's made such incredible yeah, you know, films. What
do you think it is about that idea? I guess
it's the the understanding that you get when you're like
a teenager, right, or maybe a kid, and for the
(13:44):
first time you kind of realize that there's a huge
social contract that all of us are part of. Like
when somebody's driving their car down the street, they get
into the car and they make a social contract that
they're not just going to run you over, right, And
there's kind of this basis.
Speaker 2 (13:58):
That you just have to trust every one else in society.
Speaker 4 (14:01):
And I think that the fear of well, what if
somebody did the worst thing is always like an It's
kind of like a rumination or like an intrusive thought.
And I think throughout human culture it has permeated.
Speaker 2 (14:17):
These ideas of killers or monsters, and I.
Speaker 4 (14:19):
Just think it's so interesting and it's such a big
part of modern culture, like especially when we talk about
someone like Ryan.
Speaker 2 (14:27):
Murphy that's shaping Netflix. That's a billion views.
Speaker 4 (14:32):
That's more people than have ever watched TV are watching
TV nowadays, and those stories are still there, you know,
almost one hundred years later.
Speaker 1 (14:42):
I think that there's a very strong folkloric aspect to it.
There is a possibly fictitious German serial killer from the
late Middle Ages early Modern period called christmin gin It.
I can't even pronounce his but it's ch Tienga or
something like that. And you know, this was a period
(15:04):
of time where travel was hazardous, there was no police,
know anything on the roads.
Speaker 3 (15:11):
People would just kind of disappear.
Speaker 1 (15:13):
And this was a this Christman character was like a
Boogeyman esque bandit that lurked in the woods and that would,
you know, waylay caravans and steal kids and kill people,
et cetera. And I think that is that dynamic is
(15:33):
the basis of why these stories still work. The idea
that to your point, that there are real monsters who
lurk at the border of civilization, who you know, kind
of hunt among us and that do these horrendous things
and get away with it for a long time like
(15:55):
that is really scary and compelling.
Speaker 3 (15:58):
I used to.
Speaker 1 (16:01):
Pat Olswald's Michelle McNamara, the unbelievable reporter and historian who
is the late wife of Pat Oswald. She had a
blog called True Crime Diary, and what I appreciated about
her was she always covered these stories in a way
that brought the tragedy of the events to the forefront.
(16:23):
This wound that hasn't healed because no one knows who
committed x y Z crimes. And I think that that
is part of why these stories still fascinate. It's this
idea that somebody is so devoted to harm and evil
and hurting people that they would come up with these
(16:45):
ways to carry out their you know, vile fantasies and.
Speaker 3 (16:51):
Seemingly get away with it.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
And I think Fritz Lang's m has a lot of
the core things that still work, which are this idea
that you know, the killer lourks among us, this idea
that that the police, the authorities are completely use the cybergast,
they don't know what to do. Like an m this
person is eventually caught by an alliance between the the
(17:18):
like organized crime community in Germany, the police and the
local people all together working to find this this character.
And I think that kind of idea that the regular structures,
(17:38):
the organizations that should protect us from this kind of
thing aren't working, that is a fearful and potent metaphor.
And I think one that has been a fearful and
potent metaphor, you know, for many, many many years, going
back to this Christman character who reportedly murdered a thousand people,
if he was even.
Speaker 4 (17:57):
Real exactly or if it was, if he wasn't just
like five different guys that they just.
Speaker 2 (18:04):
Hundred.
Speaker 4 (18:05):
Yeah, I'm glad you put that up because I think
that obviously, coming from England, you know, serial killer culture
is a huge part of our history because of Jack
the Ripper and an unsolved crime. You know, depending on
which version you read, there are many different theories about
who he was. But again, it is a story historically
about the police failing, and also if you read you
(18:29):
Know from Hell or you read some different versions, it's
also about corruption and how the elite will protect their
own and I think those stories are eternally interesting and
they also shape our culture to a crazy point, like
I think a lot of people, for example skipping you know,
almost one hundred years but Scream was actually based on
(18:52):
real killings that I love those movies and I think
that they are so fun and so great and Kevin
Williamson and Wes Craven it's like an unstoppable team.
Speaker 2 (19:02):
But when I first was.
Speaker 4 (19:03):
Just randomly watching you know, Ion or something, and they
did an episode about it, I was like, fuck, Like,
imagine if that was your family, Like imagine if your
daughter was one of the people who got killed and
then they make entertainment out of it. And obviously, like
I said, Jack, Jack the Ripper, hundreds of TV shows
and movies about that in England, and so when I
(19:25):
moved to America, I was very interested in the fact
that Jack Ripper here definitely has that outrageous like you know,
they're making like Jack the Ripper in the Time Machine
because it's an out of license character. Jack the Ripper
comes back to London again. But then I read a
book that just totally blew my mind, and I know,
(19:46):
Jason that this is definitely your kind of thing. I
read The Devil in the White City by Eric Larsi,
which is like such an unbelievable book about how there is,
you know, the guy who's seen by many as kind
of the first major working serial killer in America, and
how he is his life kind of was changed and
(20:10):
shaped by the Chicago Worlds Fair and how that was
able to kind of hide what he was doing. And
that was such a brilliantly written and responsible book that
still was just as engaging as reading a thriller. And
after that I was like, Okay, I've got to try
and find more people who look at it from this way,
(20:30):
because It is so different from the many YA books
or thriller books or whatever that I've read where they
deal with it. For example, huge spate of YA thrillers
inspired by Amanda Knox. They those exist everywhere and stuff
like that, and they always are kind of salacious and
have a crazy twist. Devil in the White City was
(20:51):
a study of humanity and the time period that was
so interesting, and I think that tying it back to TV,
the only thing that I've seen people respond to in
a similar way that is fictional is Mind Hunter. I
feel like that when that came out, people suddenly were interested,
even though you know it's copaganda. It's promoting this idea
(21:13):
that the FBI knew what they were doing in a
bigger sense than they necessarily did.
Speaker 2 (21:18):
But it was very serious and.
Speaker 3 (21:20):
Thoughtful, and yet I enjoyed.
Speaker 2 (21:23):
Very factually based in truth.
Speaker 4 (21:26):
So I think that there's an interesting scope of serial
killer stories that go from the ultimate B movie like
Texas Chainsaw Massacre, which was banned and was made for
you know, less than a million dollars two the highest
budget David Fincher exploration of this, and that to me
(21:47):
is like really a wide scope to show just how
popular and intriguing that this exploration of like the dark
side of humanity really is people.
Speaker 7 (22:00):
We'll be right back after a quick break, and we're back.
Speaker 1 (22:19):
You mentioned that it is a big part of American culture.
I mean it clearly is Do you think that? Do
you think that serial killers are for some reason, like
a bigger part of American cult pop culture than they
are other places?
Speaker 2 (22:35):
I don't.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
It's an interesting question and I don't disagree, although I
feel like I don't have another info.
Speaker 2 (22:43):
It feels more prominent here.
Speaker 4 (22:46):
For example, like when Luther came out right at TV show,
I absolutely loved it, Yourselba starring, incredible writing, so hyper
fantastical that it almost felt like it was not about
cops or not about a real world. And also here's
a cop who's constantly flawed, constantly failing. But when that
(23:08):
show came out, its representation of serial killers was so
crazy and fantastical and incredible, and I was like, WHOA,
this is like a horror TV show. I've never really
seen England do anything like this. So then I was
looking back at O the serial killers and serial killer
programming and serial killer movies, and they do exist in England.
Speaker 2 (23:30):
But I think.
Speaker 4 (23:31):
Maybe what I hadn't really realized until this conversation is
maybe it seems like serial killers are more prominent here
just because we live in the capital of like most
entertainment that comes out.
Speaker 2 (23:44):
In the West, you know.
Speaker 4 (23:45):
So I think I do feel like there are probably
brilliant people who have drawn this line. But I also
feel like there are probably really interesting takes about how
serial killer TV and film are so prominent here because
of how violent American history is.
Speaker 2 (24:01):
But also that would.
Speaker 4 (24:03):
Not explain why it's not in England the ultimate original,
you know, violent colonizer. So I'm very interested in what
it draws, what draws people to it, And I think, yeah,
I just think in America that there is more of
it being made, and I'm and more types of it
being made.
Speaker 2 (24:23):
For example, you have Something two thousand and four.
Speaker 4 (24:27):
You have James Wan and Leewan or they you know,
come from Australia. They come with their little billy puppet
and they make Sore. One of the becomes one of
the hugest franchise films of all time. It's like massive,
it's super gory and gross.
Speaker 1 (24:43):
As us like By is like basically the hero of
the film.
Speaker 2 (24:47):
Yes, by the time you get to the end. But
he's a good guy.
Speaker 4 (24:52):
Well that's also interesting because that leads to the kind
of righteous serial killer and that hannimal. But also I
think the thing that's crazy is so Saws made. You know,
Lionsgate makes it two thousand and four. Three years later,
Fincher makes Zodiac. Those are probably two of the most.
Speaker 6 (25:11):
Different vibe athletic movies of all time, but are made
within three years of each other and are on the
same topic and subject.
Speaker 3 (25:22):
But like that it's a good point. Yeah, that's the
great point.
Speaker 4 (25:26):
The scope of like how much of this stuff is
being made and how different it is and how interesting
it is.
Speaker 2 (25:32):
And I'm I'm just intrigued. Why it's not a question
we can answer.
Speaker 1 (25:36):
I think is like, yeah, I think those two movies
give us give us the two basically the binary approaches
that they're exactly exactly the one is the serial killer
is kind of the main character, and so you either
do like pure horror movie or you do like righteous
(25:59):
serial Killer, and it's all about like the process and
how smart they're.
Speaker 2 (26:04):
Why do they do it, and how do they do it?
Speaker 1 (26:07):
Yeah, how they're carrying out these like elaborate schemes to
as a form of catharsis for some really really terrible
thing that either happened to them or they're trying to
riskify or they're trying to rectify through torturing these different characters.
Speaker 5 (26:21):
Right.
Speaker 1 (26:22):
And then the the Fincher approach, which is the more
kind of like quote unquote highbrow approach, which I agree
is a little bit more subtle approach.
Speaker 3 (26:29):
Is about because you know, in.
Speaker 1 (26:33):
Uh in Zodiac, there is kind of like the presence
of the Zodiac is there, and you're focused on these
conflict trying right, there's like a confrontation between various suspects
who may or may not be the Zodiac, but it's
really about a confrontation with the dark side of the
(26:53):
human soul and how you're how a character's obsession with
unlocking this mystery can be as toxic as the forces
unleashed by the violence that The Manhunter is kind of
like that too, where it's it's less about we got
to solve these crimes, and it's more about like, can
(27:15):
you stare into the darkness of the human soul and
come away exactly touched, you know, and stained by that?
Speaker 4 (27:22):
That's why for me like Zodiac is. I think it's
It's one of my old time favorite movies. I go
between that and Gonir being my favorite Fincher movie. I
think Zodiac is really depressing, and I think that is
how it should feel to watch a movie about a
serial killer.
Speaker 2 (27:36):
You should feel like it's depressing.
Speaker 4 (27:38):
It ruins people's lives, it drags them in. I think
that is the really really responsible way. I think something
the other end of that would be, to me, like
a you know, something like an American Psycho where you
go so extreme, or a Hannibal on TV show on NBC,
like where you go so extreme that you'll actual realm
(28:00):
of popular. Yeah, and Hannibal he you know what, Hannibal
just kills people who are rude and unculturn, and that.
Speaker 5 (28:07):
He does.
Speaker 4 (28:11):
Righteous to watch because you can feel righteous in it
without also you know, being like, well, I'm really going
to go out and chop a person up and turn
him into a beautiful like dead people.
Speaker 2 (28:21):
Mural like Hannibal does.
Speaker 4 (28:23):
The killings are so extreme that nobody is doing them,
So I think it's an interesting and interesting scope.
Speaker 2 (28:30):
And I would also say I don't.
Speaker 4 (28:32):
Know if there's any I guess this is the nature
of Hollywood and filmmaking. But to me, the fact that
you can have like true crime shows that are made
on a budget of nothing that are so huge and
such a big part of culture all around the world. Right,
And they feed into this notion of the serial killer,
and they talk about the serial killer and they show
(28:53):
you about the different people who have killed because I
believe in the old days a serial killer cat to
kill three people and now I think it's two, and
then they become classed as a serial killer. But like
that is the lowest budget form of TV. But then
you also have you know, Martin Scorsese making Killing of
the Flower Moon and it's nominated for ten Oscars. And
(29:15):
I think that is what I find so intriguing about.
Speaker 2 (29:18):
This is it is told.
Speaker 4 (29:20):
These stories are told and accepted and in like investigated
and interrogated and watched by every single kind of person.
Speaker 2 (29:31):
That's what I think is most interesting about it.
Speaker 1 (29:33):
Okay, Rosie, your favorite serial killer type story?
Speaker 2 (29:42):
Okay, ooh, this is so hard. I will say.
Speaker 4 (29:47):
I do think if there's one that I will argue
for an artistic merit and that I just love and
Rewatch the most, I will say it's Hannibal, because I
think Hannibal is an incredible show, incredible cost I think
that it plays with the ideas of what a procedural
(30:07):
drama can be, and.
Speaker 2 (30:09):
Also it is queer, it is complex.
Speaker 4 (30:14):
The third season is essentially a kind of an art
house movie set in Venice and Europe and is completely
abstract and strange. So I do think I think that's
up there with one of the best that we've ever got.
But like I said, I think Zodiac movie wise is
one of the best movies, but one of the best
crime movies we've ever had, but definitely one of the
(30:35):
best there.
Speaker 1 (30:36):
What about you, Jason, I will say I love I
do love Man Hunter, I love.
Speaker 3 (30:46):
Zodiac.
Speaker 1 (30:47):
But for me, the most haunting, the most haunting of
this type of story that I've ever seen, is The Vanishing,
the Dutch original Dutch version of the movie, not the
adaptation starring Jeff Bridges. The Vanishing is.
Speaker 2 (31:11):
Unbelievably Jason.
Speaker 1 (31:13):
It's just like one of the scariest movies I have
ever seen in my entire life. And what happens is
this young couple is out on a road trip Dutch
couple and the girlfriend gets out of the car to
get something at like a gas station roadside gas and
(31:35):
never comes back to the car, and the man is like,
can't it's such a huge.
Speaker 3 (31:42):
It's such a shock.
Speaker 1 (31:44):
And such a devastating, abrupt tragedy, someone literally like walking
out of frame and never coming back. And it's and
he can't stop trying to unravel the mystery of what happened,
and eventually the killer or someone who knows about the
(32:04):
killing contacts him is like, oh, you want to know
what happened, I'll show you. And from there I won't
spoil it cause you want to watch it because it's
I will say it in spooky season and this is
ski season.
Speaker 4 (32:17):
I will warn you, guys, this is a rare movie.
Like I will tell you, like, yeah, be careful going
into this. If you don't like this is a scary one,
this ship.
Speaker 2 (32:25):
Will haunt you. I have a great, lovely.
Speaker 4 (32:28):
Group of friends that we do discord horror movies every year,
and we watched this and I was waiting for everyone
to finish it, and it was when the end hits.
It's legit one of the most haunting things that you've
ever seen. And it's so scary, and you constantly think
about it, and sadly the American remake, which is interesting.
Speaker 2 (32:47):
And change its change.
Speaker 1 (32:51):
I would also say my other the end, I'll just
say this, and again not to spoiling it is so
jaw dropping in yeah, in its ruthlessness and scariness of it,
and you're not.
Speaker 3 (33:11):
I've seen a million scary movies. I don't get scared.
This movie shakes you.
Speaker 4 (33:15):
It does because also this, I think, I'm really glad
you brought this up, because I do think that there
is an element of naturalistic horror very.
Speaker 1 (33:24):
It feels like it feels like a real case. It's
exactly real thing.
Speaker 2 (33:29):
Yeah, it does. I think that's such a great pull.
Speaker 4 (33:31):
Another one like that I remember, especially when we were young,
Jason Henry Portrait of a serial.
Speaker 3 (33:37):
Ialked about it. Well, actually bothers me.
Speaker 4 (33:42):
Yeah, it's so close and feels so real and raw
that you do believe it.
Speaker 2 (33:48):
And I think that is true, even though now.
Speaker 4 (33:50):
Obviously it does feel a little bit dated and some people,
you know, leather Face has become this kind of you know,
three D movie monster who you can watch in ten
other films, But the does Texas Chainsaw Massacre has that
to the point where that movie was banned in England
until the year two thousand, right because it had horrified
people so much when they saw it and they believed
(34:11):
it was real.
Speaker 2 (34:11):
So I think you're onto something there.
Speaker 4 (34:14):
That is a really interesting creepy aspect of this, which
are the really low budget movies.
Speaker 2 (34:21):
I think another one I watched years ago is called
Like Long Pigs.
Speaker 4 (34:23):
That was like one of those weird, like creepy pasta
esque like is it really released is it not? And yeah,
I think that element, the low budget to the point
where it starts to feel like it's real, is another
really scary aspect. Okay, Jason, what is your most out
their time that you've seen like a serial killer story?
So for me, in England, every year at the holiday period,
(34:49):
which for us really is Christmas, right in the lead up,
all the soap operas have big storylines and sometimes there
will be a bus that crashes and it will be
in the center of town and everyone would die.
Speaker 2 (35:00):
But more often than not it is a serial killer.
They have so many serial killers in British.
Speaker 4 (35:05):
Soaps, Like there's a woman in Coronation Street called Sally
and I think she's been married to like two serial killers,
So like that to me is the thing that's really
funny is like they push their way into these spaces
that aren't even scary, Like the soap opera versions of
them are never scary. They're just somebody who is they're killing,
who has a financial reason or you know, is a weirdo.
(35:26):
But that always kind of blew my mind that they
even make their way into entertainment where usually it's just
about like people sleeping with each other's husbands on this
you know, little street in East London or in up
North or something.
Speaker 2 (35:40):
So for me, that's.
Speaker 4 (35:40):
Always the one that I'm like, Wow, serial killers, you
really made it.
Speaker 2 (35:44):
Guys. You're in the soap operas. How about you? What's
the weirdest place you've seen a serial killer story?
Speaker 3 (35:51):
Uh?
Speaker 1 (35:51):
You know, I think the Christmas season is another one. Yeah, Listen,
I remember Renting as a child, Uh Silent Night, Deadly Night,
like legendary as like not like a nine ten year
old because my friends told me it.
Speaker 3 (36:05):
Was really scary. It was kind of scary, but.
Speaker 2 (36:07):
It's a movie.
Speaker 1 (36:09):
It's a very very I found the other things in
that movie that are weird much more troubling than that. Yes, yeah,
I feel like we should ask Carmen her favorite serial
killer movie and or TV show.
Speaker 2 (36:24):
Yeah, I might calm and put it in the chat,
put it in the track.
Speaker 3 (36:26):
Put it in the chat so we could get one.
Speaker 1 (36:29):
And and I worry for Carmen to do that. I
will also silence of the Lambs all day everything. Oh yeah,
I mean sounds the lambs.
Speaker 2 (36:36):
She's a silence of.
Speaker 3 (36:37):
The Lamb's lover.
Speaker 2 (36:38):
What can you say? I mean, who does? She also
loves long legs, so a lot of crossover.
Speaker 1 (36:42):
Yeah, and so I'll just say, oh my god, Aaron
Shrek forever after And so with that, I'll just say
Ryan Murphy must be stopped. He's got to be type
this type of framing that puts the serial killer at
the scent of the story in a way that it
is sexy empisode, Yes, so exploitative, where it's like why
(37:05):
am I I don't want to unwind his mind?
Speaker 3 (37:08):
No, I don't want to do that. I don't want
to know.
Speaker 2 (37:11):
Like why he does it?
Speaker 4 (37:12):
Like I don't want to see him imagining no neon
like Nazi concentration exactly.
Speaker 2 (37:18):
Donna, don't say stop that, man.
Speaker 4 (37:22):
But yeah, you can see we were so we were
so stressed about Monster that we made a whole episode,
So yeah, Ryan Murphy, stop that man.
Speaker 2 (37:28):
Despicable.
Speaker 4 (37:29):
But if you guys have any insights into why these
stories are such a big part of our culture and
how they infiltrate every part from you know, cheaply made
true crime to Martin Scorsese movies, join the discord hit
us up because I do think this is one of
the most interesting cultural conversations.
Speaker 2 (37:48):
That is just going to keep on being had.
Speaker 4 (37:51):
Next time on xtra Vision, we will be calling together
the group chat to talk about the new Triple A game,
Ghosts of Yote. We're the voice of Atsu Eric.
Speaker 3 (38:02):
That's it for this episode. Next for listening.
Speaker 1 (38:04):
Bye x ray Vision is hosted by Jason steps Young
and Rosie Knight and is a production of iHeart Podcasts.
Speaker 4 (38:11):
Our executive producers are Joel Monique and Aaron Kaufman.
Speaker 3 (38:15):
Our supervising producer is Abu Zafar.
Speaker 2 (38:18):
Our producers are Common Laurent Dean Jonathan and Fay Wag.
Speaker 1 (38:22):
Our theme song is by Brian Vasquez, with alternate theme
songs by Aaron Kaufman.
Speaker 4 (38:26):
Special thanks to Soul Rubin, Chris Lord, Kenny Goodman, and
Heidi Our discord moderator,
Hosts And Creators
Jason Concepcion
Rosie Knight
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