November 29, 2025 • 25 mins
In this mini Stocking Stuffer episode, Rosie is joined by Abu to discuss the Witcher season 4 on Netflix and break down what makes an adaptation good or bad.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hello. My name is Rosy Night and I'm a Buzafar.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
That's him.
Speaker 3 (00:08):
I'm so happy you're here.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
Boo. Welcome back to X ray Vision, the podcast where
we dive deep into your favorite shows, movies, comics, at
pop culture. We are here at iHeart Podcast, where we'll
be bringing you three episodes a week and news on Saturdays.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
And in today's episode, Rosie, you and I are going
to be using the Witcher season four and the Netflix
adaptation at large sort of as a launch pad for
a larger discussion about adaptations, because you and I have
been chatting about good adaptations, bad adaptations. What makes them good,
what makes them bad? How do you do them right?
(00:45):
Quote unquote how do you do them wrong? And so
we're gonna get into that today through the lens of
the Witcher.
Speaker 3 (00:53):
Okay, ah boo. What is your preference?
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Do you want an adaptation to be a strictly adherent
to the source material?
Speaker 3 (01:05):
Do you like when an adaptation puts soon spin on it?
Speaker 2 (01:08):
I do feel personally that that is a subjective question
that's mostly on like a case by case basis.
Speaker 3 (01:14):
But what are your thoughts on it?
Speaker 1 (01:16):
Yeah? I mean, subjectively speaking, I lean toward the purest
view on this, like, especially when it comes to stories
that I'm already deeply attached to and that I'm quite
passionate about. If I'm watching an adaptation, I want it
to follow the story that I already know and love.
(01:36):
I want it to adhere as closely as it can
to the source material. And in fact, that is the
reason I've been turned off for many adaptations, is when
it begins to drift too far from the original characters
or the original plots and themes that resonated with me originally. Yeah,
if that begins to change in the adaptation, I begin
(01:57):
to check out, and ultimately like, there's a high chance
that I'm gonna not like the adaptation if it begins
to be two different from the story that I already know.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
Okay, I'm very interested to ask you then about Let's
talk about uh Denny's June, because I do. I love June,
and I think, like you know, I like many I'm
not like you. I've not read all the books. I
have not like struggled through the density of the of
the text, though I do. I do love what I've read,
(02:28):
and I've enjoyed kind of dipping into them throughout my life.
Speaker 3 (02:31):
And I love those adaptations.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
But I do understand, even from my brief knowledge, like,
there are some changes that are quite like a big deal.
But at the same time, sure, yeah, a lot of
it sticks incredibly textually to the books.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
Right, Yes, I think the dannie Ville Love films are
actually an example of handling an adaptation perfectly. Are there changes?
Speaker 2 (02:56):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (02:57):
Are changes inevitable? Yes, you're changing, You're changing to an
entirely different medium of storytelling, and you're retelling the story
decades after it was originally published. There inevitably have to
be changes. And of course it's being told through the
lens of a different artist, right Like that that worldview,
their perspective is going to bleed into the adaptation of matter.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
And also eight years after it is written or something
you know as well, that's the other thing. It's like
decades decades later, so things have changed, Yes, But yeah,
what is it about the balance? How did Denny capture
and balance those two things?
Speaker 3 (03:32):
Was it about? Like?
Speaker 2 (03:33):
The tone feels so much like Dune. The themes are
still there, but those little changes work. Like what was
it about it for you that made it so special?
Speaker 1 (03:41):
I think tone and theme are what Denny nailed. When
it comes to Dune, It's clear that Dannyville Love deeply, deeply,
deeply understands the Dune universe and doesn't just understand it like, oh,
I picked up this book and I read it once
and I liked it a lot. I'm going to make
a movie. He clearly has read the entire series, has
(04:03):
read much of the extracurricular stuff that's out there, the
expanded lower stuff, and so that to me shows that
there was respect and knowledge here from danny Ville Love.
I think he also captured tone, and the film itself
is about the major themes that Frank Herbert was exploring
in the books, about fanaticism and religion and despotic leaders
(04:28):
and politics and you know, fate and predestination, like all
of these things are intact in the films.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
I think that's a really good point because also it
reminds me of another adaptation that actually did change the
source material like a lot, which was Watchmen. It basically
acted as like a sequel HBO's Watchman. But I think
in the thing that it understood was it understood the
political themes. It understood the way that it was supposed
to be satirizing, superho culture, fascistic policing, the way those
(04:59):
two things can come together.
Speaker 3 (05:01):
So that team was able to create something new.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
With the characters that felt entirely thematically resonant and felt
modern and updated. And I think that there is a
possibility of doing that. But the kind of deft hand
that you need.
Speaker 3 (05:18):
Is so so.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
Just like gentle and intricate, and like you need to
be able to weave those together because also sometimes it
is a case of like Jurassic Park, that was something
we talked about, right, amazing adaptation. Arguably a lot of
people would say better than the book. The first book
is a lot more like the second book that there's
a movie. Ironically, there is a lot more density, there's
a lot more of what you would expect from a
(05:43):
Christim book.
Speaker 3 (05:44):
And I love him. I love that book.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
But with Jurassic Park, I think it was kind of
ironically an incredible streamlining of a great idea and now
the themes are there. It's not about science gone wrong, it's
about science gone right. But it's about greed, but it's
about should you. It's about all the same things. But
what they managed to do in Jurassic Park was streamline
it into like a blockbuster monster movie, and that's also
(06:07):
very interesting, like you can even change genre a little
bit if you end up in a space because the
original Jurassic Park is a sci fi thriller, as most
of Crichton's books are, but there are moments I think
a lot about the Sam Jackson wrapped arm on his
shoulder that feel fully like horror, you know, And I
think that's because they understood what needed to be done
from a dinosaur movie, something we hadn't had a popular
(06:31):
one off since like the fifties, you know, obviously other
than like kind of sitcommy dinosaur X stuff, but not
like a thrill ride. So I think those are really interesting.
I also think it's kind of funny how time changes
things because Lord of the Rings we all loved it, right,
but as kids there were definitely, like when I was young,
there was a lot of nitpicking about like, oh, there's
(06:54):
not enough singing, why don't they have the singing, why
don't they have the long food sessions, why don't they
get into the stuff that is in the appendices? And
then ironically, you know, when Amazon decided, okay, well we'll
just do that, that didn't work, you know, for for
most people. I am a Rings of Power fan. I've
talked about it. I like the show, I really enjoy it.
Why not make a big swing, Why not tell me
(07:14):
more about these characters? Sure, but it's funny what you
can sometimes I think adhering too much to those little
details that fans love, the songs, the hobbits, hairy feet,
these things that you know, super fans are complaining about.
Sometimes if you focus too much on that, you actually
lose what is at the core of it, which is
kind of this adventure story or whatever.
Speaker 3 (07:35):
Appeals to people.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
So it's really interesting how these things change, because obviously
now a lot of the Rings is seen as like
the ultimate, almost perfect adaptation, you know, even though there
are definitely big changes.
Speaker 3 (07:47):
Well, I know that. Let's talk about some some less good.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
Let's talk about the one that really inspired this conversation,
which was.
Speaker 1 (07:55):
Sure, yeah, the Witcher, the Witch.
Speaker 3 (07:58):
Let's talk about it.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
So tell me more about your fandom of the Witcher
and how you came to the Witcher before the show,
because you do have like a distinct knowledge of the
law and the novels and the games and stuff.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
Right, Yes, absolutely, I love the games I was actually
introduced I'm sure, like many people to the Witcher through
the video games, and actually not the Witcher three. I
played the Witcher one was just not a great video.
Actually it's pretty outdated and bad. Which Are two is great?
Witch Are three is maybe one of the most legendary
(08:31):
video games of all time. That's how people are usually
introduced to the Witcher. They realize, wait, these are based
off of books. Let me read the books, and that's
when you realize the games are actually completely disconnected from
the books. It just takes the characters in the setting.
The games are not canon in any way, to be clear,
but the books themselves are great, and the games adapt
(08:54):
the books by doing hitting all of the things that
you and I have been talking about, perfectly, nailing the characters,
the tone, the themes, many of the ideas, setting it
in a world that feels so in line with the original.
And that's one big reason the games are so popular
as well, because of the great setting and great characters.
The books are also great. I'm a big fan of
(09:15):
the games, I'm a big fan of the books. I
ran a very popular Witcher podcast for many years that's
now sort of been on hiatus because I'm past that
Witcher phase in my life. And you know, I thought,
for the first season the Witcher TV show, while not perfect,
I had my qualms with it. I had my nitmix.
(09:35):
While not perfect, I think it was a good start,
and I was hopeful that we would continue to see
the show grow into itself, kind of find its voice,
really establish that its strengths as an adaptation of the material,
because it was doing a pretty good job in season one.
I think by the time we got into season two,
we started to diverge greatly from the source material. Season
(09:59):
one certainly had its divergences, but that could be explained
away because we're a TV show.
Speaker 3 (10:04):
Now change some things, different format, different medium, you need
to change it.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
Like sure, right, But I think seasons two, certainly, by three,
and now that we're into four that just came out
this year, while we are still borrowing many things like
overarching plotlines and characters from the books, the way they
are interpreted and portrayed and the way the story is
(10:28):
told has diverged dramatically from the source material in ways
that to me no longer honor the themes and ideas
of the original stories. And so the show does not
resonate with me in the same way that the books did,
and it doesn't expand at the universe and let me
live in it like the games did. And so unfortunately,
(10:50):
I'm sort of a a former Netflix which your show fans, you.
Speaker 3 (10:55):
Know what, you gave it a try.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
You gave it a try, and I think that that's
the thing. And I'm really excited to come back after
the break because i have a different Netflix show where
the changes they made really worked for me, and it
got canceled.
Speaker 3 (11:08):
So I'm excited to talk about that after the bak
and we're back. Aboo, welcome back.
Speaker 2 (11:28):
Thanks to those adverts that you definitely listen to, guys,
me and a boo back, We're here, and yeah, Mark
for me, I totally feel you on the Witch. I've
played some of the games, not like finished. I think
they're great. I actually read the first book. I thought
it was really enjoyable. I watched a Netflix show. It
just never really caught me in the same way it
caught other people, but I thought it looked great. Around
(11:49):
the similar time Netflix launched, I think it was maybe
twenty eighteen. The end of twenty eighteen, they launched a
shadow and Bone, which was an adaptation of the Lee
Bardugo books that I love. But with that adaptation, Lee
essentially went, hey, guys, I wrote this ten years ago.
Speaker 3 (12:05):
I was young. It was my first ever book. I
didn't really it was.
Speaker 2 (12:08):
Inspired by her own you know, I think it's like
Slavic folklore heritage. So she was like, I want to
reimagine this when we make it. I want to bring
on Asian American writers. I want to make sure that
this kind of fictionalized version of Asia that they had
in it. That she decided to make the character Elena
(12:29):
the main character, ended up making her that she was
from that space, but also from the kind of generic, generic,
you know, white Europe space, and there was this very
interesting care put into that season. They also built in
characters from the spinoff books, which were, you know, really popular,
more popular arguably than Shadow and Bone. Six Crows and
(12:50):
Crooked Kingdom still highly recommend. That was the kind of
I did a lot of coverage on that shows too,
so I had a lot of insight, but the kind
of conversations they were having creatively, I was just like, Oh,
these are people who deeply care about the show, and
obviously Lee is the creator, so there is an authorship
thing there where she is involved, but she's involved in
the way unlike some other YA authors where you're like,
(13:13):
I'm so glad you're thinking about stuff like this. And
both seasons of the show are amazing, but Netflix is
notorious but not really advertising past the first season in
the same way second season. We never got the third
and we never got the Sixercro's Ketadam spinoff.
Speaker 3 (13:27):
But that's one where for.
Speaker 2 (13:28):
Me, those Hollywood changes, those adaptation changes, those medium changes,
that timeline that had passed. She reacted to it in
a way that just made the work so much better
for me, and I was like, how I read it?
And those are the versions of the characters I see.
So I think there is a version like Watchmen like
that where it can be expansive. But also I think
(13:50):
the problem with Netflix in general that it's had is
like there is also a genericness to some of the
stuff that they put out, and I do think The
Witcher fell into looking like a Netflix original that didn't
necessarily give it the space as something like this to
show that we I think like season one foundation, I
thought it was good, right, it was fine, but it
(14:10):
was very different but season two off, where they really
broke out and just be able to go crazy, that
was such an incredible season of TV. And I think
often something like The Witcher it needs more space outside
of that, you know, the Netflix format to really have
like a crazy wild second third season where you can
(14:30):
expand outside. And but yeah, it's such a complicated thing.
But Aboo, you do have some quite good rules. You
have some quite strict rules. Let's talk about your rules.
What are your top three Aboo rules for adaptations.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
Okay, so I'm curious how much you agree or disagree
with that.
Speaker 3 (14:46):
I'm excited.
Speaker 1 (14:47):
I came up with three. I'm here to be I'm
interested in hearing your takes. Rule number one, I think
when you're making an adaptation, you do not change the characters.
I don't think there's any reason to make dramatic changes
to characters, except where there are instances like in in
(15:09):
the Shang Chi franchise, where there are obviously characters with
extremely racist, problematic origins.
Speaker 3 (15:15):
I infer.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
There's all historically racist stuff that needs to be recontextualized.
Speaker 1 (15:22):
And so recontextualizing that modernizing that I think in that instance, sure,
that's absolutely aokay. But even then I would say that
is a case by case consideration because sometimes the problematic
origins of a character is the entire point of that character.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
Because also I would say, like you make a great
point someone like Luke Cage, for example, right, a character
that came out of.
Speaker 3 (15:47):
The Black Exploitation explosion.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
Definitely there are some elements of that story where you
could look back at it and be like, Okay, this
is kind of problematic, like I see where you're coming from.
Lots of white guys writing on this, but it found
its own audience, and because there was not a lot
of representation at the time, it ended up becoming this
very powerful thing. And I think that the Netflix show
did a great job of playing.
Speaker 3 (16:11):
With both the power man history of it.
Speaker 2 (16:14):
Or there's this great moment where he kind of runs
through a laundry kind of space while he's escaping and
he ends up with the yellow shirt and this kind
so they play into the corny past while still modernizing
it for the future and not leaving that character there.
So I agree, I think case by case basis. I
am also like you know, for me, I think as well,
(16:36):
like the notion of what changes of character is all
to do with how good the writing is, how good
the casting is. So for example, Doctor Manhattan Yah yah
Abdolmaine the second like, that's one of the greatest castings
of all time, greats reveals of all time.
Speaker 3 (16:50):
So well done.
Speaker 2 (16:52):
And you could argue that it is a different character
because this is a Dr Manhattan who is more emotionally understanding,
emotionally available. He's been a live longer, he's found someone
that he feels like is worth you know, being human
for so but again works because of the rest of
the peace and everything around it. Okay rule number two.
Speaker 1 (17:13):
Okay, rule number two. I think it's extremely important for
any creator to understand the original author or original creator's intent,
whether or not you agree with it. You need to
at least understand the author's intent originally, and then I
think you need to do your best to stick to
the same overarching themes and ideas that were presented in
(17:34):
the original story. I strongly believe that obviously, like it,
someone put words to paper because they had some worldview
or some part of the human experience they wanted to
capture and share in their story. And I don't think
it's like the person adapting adapting its job to completely
change that to decide this story is about something else.
Speaker 3 (17:56):
Now, yeah, I agree.
Speaker 2 (17:58):
So what I really love about this all as well
is I think again it's all about you know, it's
so funny.
Speaker 3 (18:04):
I bring up Watchmen so many times of this conversation because.
Speaker 2 (18:06):
The reality is guys like me too, but also like
it's really funny because like when I have a lot
of controversial feelings about it, because like you know, we've
talked about this a lot on the podcast, but the
IP was essentially stole them from Alan Moore and Dave Gibbons, Yes,
but like it ended up being something that was worked
out via Alan Moore giving all of his rights and
(18:28):
royalties to Dave, and now Dave does these adaptations and
I love that for him, but like thematically, I love
this because I do think that the thing reason Watchmen
works so well is it understands what Alan Moore was
doing even when some of the comic book readers maybe didn't.
And I think another great example of this of how
you can make this work even if you don't agree
is like something like poor Verehoven's Starship Troopers, which adapts
(18:50):
a very racist book, like the book is Hella racist
that's super paramilitary pro everything. And what Verehoven did is
he essentially adapted it so to the notes of the
book that.
Speaker 3 (19:03):
It became a satire of itself.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
She's the point, right, So you can even disagree and
show your disagreement by saying, hey, what does this look
like when you really put it up there? As this
person is saying, and I think this comes up with
another thing that I know is super important to us
both growing up, which is Harry Potter is like, actually,
you actually sometimes like you shouldn't change that, because guess what,
(19:27):
that's how we know she sucks.
Speaker 3 (19:29):
Like you go back in the books.
Speaker 2 (19:30):
You read the names she gave people, You read the
fact that she's making the Irish kids power being blowing up.
Guess what when you adapt that, stick to it, stick
to your guns. If you want to adapt her, that's
what you're adapting. So I kind of love this. There
are times you can change the text, but at all
times like, why are you telling the story if it's
not about those themes or at least in reaction to
(19:52):
those themes.
Speaker 1 (19:52):
Yes, at least in reaction an understanding of the original
intention of themes is I think critical to.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
Him That's why I think something like this goes back
to our you know, we've had this conversation on our
anime adaptation episode. But I would say something like Ghost
in the Shelle, Dragon ball Z. Those remakes are bad
for many reasons in America, but mostly because they can
textually do not understand the theme.
Speaker 3 (20:14):
That's the most interesting thing. It's like, yeah, the casting
is bad, the movie is badly made.
Speaker 2 (20:19):
They think they can just go action movie, but it's
Dragon ball Z or action movie but it's Ghost in
the Shell. But Ghost in the Shell is about the
demilitarization of Japan and how Yeah, then that forced them
into this technological space like there's so much there that
you can't just go okay, yeah, I'm just making it.
Speaker 1 (20:34):
Yeah, it's not just a rapper and an IP to
make whatever movie you want to make, totally, and it's
about engaging with the original text.
Speaker 3 (20:43):
If that is the log line of this episode, that's
the one.
Speaker 2 (20:46):
It's not just a rapper and IP, Like, come on, guys,
let's have an adapt Okay, final a boo adaptation rule.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
Last thing to wrap up today, rule number three, And
this is one as a purist where I'm actually advocating
for change. I think rule number three is that a
creator should use their chosen medium to be additive to
the original text, and they should play to their strengths.
They should make changes that make that story fit better
into the shape that you're now putting it in. If
(21:15):
it is a book, don't just translate that the text
of the book into a script. That is going to
be a bad script. It's never going to make sense
on film. Dannyville love understands this. There's so much dense
lore in the Dune universe, and yet the films don't
feel exposition heavy. There's no clunky voiceover that explains thing
(21:36):
to you, thinks to you. Danny Ville Neve does a
lot of showing because you understand the medium of film
that I'm putting pictures up on screen and you can
see them and interpret them. I don't need to constantly
say things and explain things.
Speaker 2 (21:49):
Like the visual exposition of just like showing what's on
the screen, rather than having someone go, hey, this is
this family and this is that family and blah blah blah.
Speaker 3 (21:57):
Yeah, yeah, no. I did think that was really great.
Speaker 2 (22:00):
Also loved that first movie because it just feels like
a like a BBC four part special that they would
have played like a very high budget one. But the
narrative like fictional, the the trail that it takes is
very much in that like not afraid to be slow,
not afraid to just take its time. I also love
this because my last agreement on this, I think this
(22:22):
is a wonderful take and I think is maybe the
most important of your rules. I'm gonna go for one
that is pretty much like it is a very straight
adaptation in a way, which is David Fincher's Gone Girl
adapting to Jillian the book.
Speaker 3 (22:35):
But what he brought to it that the book, the
Gillian's films book.
Speaker 2 (22:39):
Always have like a dark tone, right, That's how she is.
The movie adaptations are similar. But something that.
Speaker 3 (22:49):
Was really able to be captured by Fincher was just.
Speaker 2 (22:52):
The the looming, dark, unsettling nature of like being settled
into a marriage.
Speaker 3 (22:59):
You don't want to like.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
This, this this domestic horror. He was able to bring
to it that in my opinion, like past it's domestic horror,
you know, And in my opinion like that is such
a fantastic take on the book. And I think, like
when you I talk about additive those performances by Rosamond
Pike and Ben Affleck and even Tyler Perry and you
(23:22):
know now believed and we forget about him scandalized. But like,
but but everything about that movie was additive to the
point where like, I usually will choose to if I'm
thinking about a story I like, and I will go
back and read the book with Gonga. Pretty much every time,
I'll just watch the movie because I think, like Tonally,
Fincher understood what his playbook was and how well it
(23:43):
would work with Flynn's and I think that's why it's
such a fantastic and the exactly so.
Speaker 3 (23:48):
I love that one. Oh and boo, thank you so
much for joining me. This was the life.
Speaker 2 (23:53):
Yeah, I'm really happy. And guys, you got it in
the discord. You gotta let us know what you think
of a boost rules. I think that are most sensible
rules that we've laid out so on edythe I help.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
So yeah, and if you're enjoying The Witcher season four,
please keep enjoying it. Yeah. Yeah, we don't have any
is just for me. I'm the one losing sleep over it.
Y'all enjoy it, you know what?
Speaker 3 (24:12):
We We love everything here and we love that other
people don't love. And we like, you know, we like stuff.
We don't like stuff that other people do love. That's
the joy of being a fan. And yes, it's far.
Enjoying it. Keep enjoying it. Larry Fishburn, I love you,
Get a wig on a.
Speaker 2 (24:26):
Living it, get that Netflix money. I love you. You've
been killing it since death. Wish knowing great, great, good job.
I love you, Laurret's Fishburn.
Speaker 3 (24:35):
That is the episode.
Speaker 2 (24:36):
Thank you for listening, and guys, happy holidays.
Speaker 3 (24:40):
And stay safe. This season.
Speaker 2 (24:47):
X ray Vision is hosted by Jason steps Young and
Rosie Night and is a production of iHeart Podcast. Our
executive producers are Joel Monique and Aaron Korfman.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
Our supervising producer is Abusafar.
Speaker 2 (24:58):
Our producers are Common, Laurent Dean Jonathan and Fay Wack.
Speaker 1 (25:02):
A theme song is by Brian Vasquez, with alternate theme
songs by Aaron Kaufman.
Speaker 2 (25:07):
Special thanks to Soul Rubin, Chris Lord, Kenny Goodman and
Heidi our discord moderator
Hello. My name is Rosy Night and I'm a Buzafar.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
That's him.
Speaker 3 (00:08):
I'm so happy you're here.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
Boo. Welcome back to X ray Vision, the podcast where
we dive deep into your favorite shows, movies, comics, at
pop culture. We are here at iHeart Podcast, where we'll
be bringing you three episodes a week and news on Saturdays.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
And in today's episode, Rosie, you and I are going
to be using the Witcher season four and the Netflix
adaptation at large sort of as a launch pad for
a larger discussion about adaptations, because you and I have
been chatting about good adaptations, bad adaptations. What makes them good,
what makes them bad? How do you do them right?
(00:45):
Quote unquote how do you do them wrong? And so
we're gonna get into that today through the lens of
the Witcher.
Speaker 3 (00:53):
Okay, ah boo. What is your preference?
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Do you want an adaptation to be a strictly adherent
to the source material?
Speaker 3 (01:05):
Do you like when an adaptation puts soon spin on it?
Speaker 2 (01:08):
I do feel personally that that is a subjective question
that's mostly on like a case by case basis.
Speaker 3 (01:14):
But what are your thoughts on it?
Speaker 1 (01:16):
Yeah? I mean, subjectively speaking, I lean toward the purest
view on this, like, especially when it comes to stories
that I'm already deeply attached to and that I'm quite
passionate about. If I'm watching an adaptation, I want it
to follow the story that I already know and love.
(01:36):
I want it to adhere as closely as it can
to the source material. And in fact, that is the
reason I've been turned off for many adaptations, is when
it begins to drift too far from the original characters
or the original plots and themes that resonated with me originally. Yeah,
if that begins to change in the adaptation, I begin
(01:57):
to check out, and ultimately like, there's a high chance
that I'm gonna not like the adaptation if it begins
to be two different from the story that I already know.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
Okay, I'm very interested to ask you then about Let's
talk about uh Denny's June, because I do. I love June,
and I think, like you know, I like many I'm
not like you. I've not read all the books. I
have not like struggled through the density of the of
the text, though I do. I do love what I've read,
(02:28):
and I've enjoyed kind of dipping into them throughout my life.
Speaker 3 (02:31):
And I love those adaptations.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
But I do understand, even from my brief knowledge, like,
there are some changes that are quite like a big deal.
But at the same time, sure, yeah, a lot of
it sticks incredibly textually to the books.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
Right, Yes, I think the dannie Ville Love films are
actually an example of handling an adaptation perfectly. Are there changes?
Speaker 2 (02:56):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (02:57):
Are changes inevitable? Yes, you're changing, You're changing to an
entirely different medium of storytelling, and you're retelling the story
decades after it was originally published. There inevitably have to
be changes. And of course it's being told through the
lens of a different artist, right Like that that worldview,
their perspective is going to bleed into the adaptation of matter.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
And also eight years after it is written or something
you know as well, that's the other thing. It's like
decades decades later, so things have changed, Yes, But yeah,
what is it about the balance? How did Denny capture
and balance those two things?
Speaker 3 (03:32):
Was it about? Like?
Speaker 2 (03:33):
The tone feels so much like Dune. The themes are
still there, but those little changes work. Like what was
it about it for you that made it so special?
Speaker 1 (03:41):
I think tone and theme are what Denny nailed. When
it comes to Dune, It's clear that Dannyville Love deeply, deeply,
deeply understands the Dune universe and doesn't just understand it like, oh,
I picked up this book and I read it once
and I liked it a lot. I'm going to make
a movie. He clearly has read the entire series, has
(04:03):
read much of the extracurricular stuff that's out there, the
expanded lower stuff, and so that to me shows that
there was respect and knowledge here from danny Ville Love.
I think he also captured tone, and the film itself
is about the major themes that Frank Herbert was exploring
in the books, about fanaticism and religion and despotic leaders
(04:28):
and politics and you know, fate and predestination, like all
of these things are intact in the films.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
I think that's a really good point because also it
reminds me of another adaptation that actually did change the
source material like a lot, which was Watchmen. It basically
acted as like a sequel HBO's Watchman. But I think
in the thing that it understood was it understood the
political themes. It understood the way that it was supposed
to be satirizing, superho culture, fascistic policing, the way those
(04:59):
two things can come together.
Speaker 3 (05:01):
So that team was able to create something new.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
With the characters that felt entirely thematically resonant and felt
modern and updated. And I think that there is a
possibility of doing that. But the kind of deft hand
that you need.
Speaker 3 (05:18):
Is so so.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
Just like gentle and intricate, and like you need to
be able to weave those together because also sometimes it
is a case of like Jurassic Park, that was something
we talked about, right, amazing adaptation. Arguably a lot of
people would say better than the book. The first book
is a lot more like the second book that there's
a movie. Ironically, there is a lot more density, there's
a lot more of what you would expect from a
(05:43):
Christim book.
Speaker 3 (05:44):
And I love him. I love that book.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
But with Jurassic Park, I think it was kind of
ironically an incredible streamlining of a great idea and now
the themes are there. It's not about science gone wrong, it's
about science gone right. But it's about greed, but it's
about should you. It's about all the same things. But
what they managed to do in Jurassic Park was streamline
it into like a blockbuster monster movie, and that's also
(06:07):
very interesting, like you can even change genre a little
bit if you end up in a space because the
original Jurassic Park is a sci fi thriller, as most
of Crichton's books are, but there are moments I think
a lot about the Sam Jackson wrapped arm on his
shoulder that feel fully like horror, you know, And I
think that's because they understood what needed to be done
from a dinosaur movie, something we hadn't had a popular
(06:31):
one off since like the fifties, you know, obviously other
than like kind of sitcommy dinosaur X stuff, but not
like a thrill ride. So I think those are really interesting.
I also think it's kind of funny how time changes
things because Lord of the Rings we all loved it, right,
but as kids there were definitely, like when I was young,
there was a lot of nitpicking about like, oh, there's
(06:54):
not enough singing, why don't they have the singing, why
don't they have the long food sessions, why don't they
get into the stuff that is in the appendices? And
then ironically, you know, when Amazon decided, okay, well we'll
just do that, that didn't work, you know, for for
most people. I am a Rings of Power fan. I've
talked about it. I like the show, I really enjoy it.
Why not make a big swing, Why not tell me
(07:14):
more about these characters? Sure, but it's funny what you
can sometimes I think adhering too much to those little
details that fans love, the songs, the hobbits, hairy feet,
these things that you know, super fans are complaining about.
Sometimes if you focus too much on that, you actually
lose what is at the core of it, which is
kind of this adventure story or whatever.
Speaker 3 (07:35):
Appeals to people.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
So it's really interesting how these things change, because obviously
now a lot of the Rings is seen as like
the ultimate, almost perfect adaptation, you know, even though there
are definitely big changes.
Speaker 3 (07:47):
Well, I know that. Let's talk about some some less good.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
Let's talk about the one that really inspired this conversation,
which was.
Speaker 1 (07:55):
Sure, yeah, the Witcher, the Witch.
Speaker 3 (07:58):
Let's talk about it.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
So tell me more about your fandom of the Witcher
and how you came to the Witcher before the show,
because you do have like a distinct knowledge of the
law and the novels and the games and stuff.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
Right, Yes, absolutely, I love the games I was actually
introduced I'm sure, like many people to the Witcher through
the video games, and actually not the Witcher three. I
played the Witcher one was just not a great video.
Actually it's pretty outdated and bad. Which Are two is great?
Witch Are three is maybe one of the most legendary
(08:31):
video games of all time. That's how people are usually
introduced to the Witcher. They realize, wait, these are based
off of books. Let me read the books, and that's
when you realize the games are actually completely disconnected from
the books. It just takes the characters in the setting.
The games are not canon in any way, to be clear,
but the books themselves are great, and the games adapt
(08:54):
the books by doing hitting all of the things that
you and I have been talking about, perfectly, nailing the characters,
the tone, the themes, many of the ideas, setting it
in a world that feels so in line with the original.
And that's one big reason the games are so popular
as well, because of the great setting and great characters.
The books are also great. I'm a big fan of
(09:15):
the games, I'm a big fan of the books. I
ran a very popular Witcher podcast for many years that's
now sort of been on hiatus because I'm past that
Witcher phase in my life. And you know, I thought,
for the first season the Witcher TV show, while not perfect,
I had my qualms with it. I had my nitmix.
(09:35):
While not perfect, I think it was a good start,
and I was hopeful that we would continue to see
the show grow into itself, kind of find its voice,
really establish that its strengths as an adaptation of the material,
because it was doing a pretty good job in season one.
I think by the time we got into season two,
we started to diverge greatly from the source material. Season
(09:59):
one certainly had its divergences, but that could be explained
away because we're a TV show.
Speaker 3 (10:04):
Now change some things, different format, different medium, you need
to change it.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
Like sure, right, But I think seasons two, certainly, by three,
and now that we're into four that just came out
this year, while we are still borrowing many things like
overarching plotlines and characters from the books, the way they
are interpreted and portrayed and the way the story is
(10:28):
told has diverged dramatically from the source material in ways
that to me no longer honor the themes and ideas
of the original stories. And so the show does not
resonate with me in the same way that the books did,
and it doesn't expand at the universe and let me
live in it like the games did. And so unfortunately,
(10:50):
I'm sort of a a former Netflix which your show fans, you.
Speaker 3 (10:55):
Know what, you gave it a try.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
You gave it a try, and I think that that's
the thing. And I'm really excited to come back after
the break because i have a different Netflix show where
the changes they made really worked for me, and it
got canceled.
Speaker 3 (11:08):
So I'm excited to talk about that after the bak
and we're back. Aboo, welcome back.
Speaker 2 (11:28):
Thanks to those adverts that you definitely listen to, guys,
me and a boo back, We're here, and yeah, Mark
for me, I totally feel you on the Witch. I've
played some of the games, not like finished. I think
they're great. I actually read the first book. I thought
it was really enjoyable. I watched a Netflix show. It
just never really caught me in the same way it
caught other people, but I thought it looked great. Around
(11:49):
the similar time Netflix launched, I think it was maybe
twenty eighteen. The end of twenty eighteen, they launched a
shadow and Bone, which was an adaptation of the Lee
Bardugo books that I love. But with that adaptation, Lee
essentially went, hey, guys, I wrote this ten years ago.
Speaker 3 (12:05):
I was young. It was my first ever book. I
didn't really it was.
Speaker 2 (12:08):
Inspired by her own you know, I think it's like
Slavic folklore heritage. So she was like, I want to
reimagine this when we make it. I want to bring
on Asian American writers. I want to make sure that
this kind of fictionalized version of Asia that they had
in it. That she decided to make the character Elena
(12:29):
the main character, ended up making her that she was
from that space, but also from the kind of generic, generic,
you know, white Europe space, and there was this very
interesting care put into that season. They also built in
characters from the spinoff books, which were, you know, really popular,
more popular arguably than Shadow and Bone. Six Crows and
(12:50):
Crooked Kingdom still highly recommend. That was the kind of
I did a lot of coverage on that shows too,
so I had a lot of insight, but the kind
of conversations they were having creatively, I was just like, Oh,
these are people who deeply care about the show, and
obviously Lee is the creator, so there is an authorship
thing there where she is involved, but she's involved in
the way unlike some other YA authors where you're like,
(13:13):
I'm so glad you're thinking about stuff like this. And
both seasons of the show are amazing, but Netflix is
notorious but not really advertising past the first season in
the same way second season. We never got the third
and we never got the Sixercro's Ketadam spinoff.
Speaker 3 (13:27):
But that's one where for.
Speaker 2 (13:28):
Me, those Hollywood changes, those adaptation changes, those medium changes,
that timeline that had passed. She reacted to it in
a way that just made the work so much better
for me, and I was like, how I read it?
And those are the versions of the characters I see.
So I think there is a version like Watchmen like
that where it can be expansive. But also I think
(13:50):
the problem with Netflix in general that it's had is
like there is also a genericness to some of the
stuff that they put out, and I do think The
Witcher fell into looking like a Netflix original that didn't
necessarily give it the space as something like this to
show that we I think like season one foundation, I
thought it was good, right, it was fine, but it
(14:10):
was very different but season two off, where they really
broke out and just be able to go crazy, that
was such an incredible season of TV. And I think
often something like The Witcher it needs more space outside
of that, you know, the Netflix format to really have
like a crazy wild second third season where you can
(14:30):
expand outside. And but yeah, it's such a complicated thing.
But Aboo, you do have some quite good rules. You
have some quite strict rules. Let's talk about your rules.
What are your top three Aboo rules for adaptations.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
Okay, so I'm curious how much you agree or disagree
with that.
Speaker 3 (14:46):
I'm excited.
Speaker 1 (14:47):
I came up with three. I'm here to be I'm
interested in hearing your takes. Rule number one, I think
when you're making an adaptation, you do not change the characters.
I don't think there's any reason to make dramatic changes
to characters, except where there are instances like in in
(15:09):
the Shang Chi franchise, where there are obviously characters with
extremely racist, problematic origins.
Speaker 3 (15:15):
I infer.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
There's all historically racist stuff that needs to be recontextualized.
Speaker 1 (15:22):
And so recontextualizing that modernizing that I think in that instance, sure,
that's absolutely aokay. But even then I would say that
is a case by case consideration because sometimes the problematic
origins of a character is the entire point of that character.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
Because also I would say, like you make a great
point someone like Luke Cage, for example, right, a character
that came out of.
Speaker 3 (15:47):
The Black Exploitation explosion.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
Definitely there are some elements of that story where you
could look back at it and be like, Okay, this
is kind of problematic, like I see where you're coming from.
Lots of white guys writing on this, but it found
its own audience, and because there was not a lot
of representation at the time, it ended up becoming this
very powerful thing. And I think that the Netflix show
did a great job of playing.
Speaker 3 (16:11):
With both the power man history of it.
Speaker 2 (16:14):
Or there's this great moment where he kind of runs
through a laundry kind of space while he's escaping and
he ends up with the yellow shirt and this kind
so they play into the corny past while still modernizing
it for the future and not leaving that character there.
So I agree, I think case by case basis. I
am also like you know, for me, I think as well,
(16:36):
like the notion of what changes of character is all
to do with how good the writing is, how good
the casting is. So for example, Doctor Manhattan Yah yah
Abdolmaine the second like, that's one of the greatest castings
of all time, greats reveals of all time.
Speaker 3 (16:50):
So well done.
Speaker 2 (16:52):
And you could argue that it is a different character
because this is a Dr Manhattan who is more emotionally understanding,
emotionally available. He's been a live longer, he's found someone
that he feels like is worth you know, being human
for so but again works because of the rest of
the peace and everything around it. Okay rule number two.
Speaker 1 (17:13):
Okay, rule number two. I think it's extremely important for
any creator to understand the original author or original creator's intent,
whether or not you agree with it. You need to
at least understand the author's intent originally, and then I
think you need to do your best to stick to
the same overarching themes and ideas that were presented in
(17:34):
the original story. I strongly believe that obviously, like it,
someone put words to paper because they had some worldview
or some part of the human experience they wanted to
capture and share in their story. And I don't think
it's like the person adapting adapting its job to completely
change that to decide this story is about something else.
Speaker 3 (17:56):
Now, yeah, I agree.
Speaker 2 (17:58):
So what I really love about this all as well
is I think again it's all about you know, it's
so funny.
Speaker 3 (18:04):
I bring up Watchmen so many times of this conversation because.
Speaker 2 (18:06):
The reality is guys like me too, but also like
it's really funny because like when I have a lot
of controversial feelings about it, because like you know, we've
talked about this a lot on the podcast, but the
IP was essentially stole them from Alan Moore and Dave Gibbons, Yes,
but like it ended up being something that was worked
out via Alan Moore giving all of his rights and
(18:28):
royalties to Dave, and now Dave does these adaptations and
I love that for him, but like thematically, I love
this because I do think that the thing reason Watchmen
works so well is it understands what Alan Moore was
doing even when some of the comic book readers maybe didn't.
And I think another great example of this of how
you can make this work even if you don't agree
is like something like poor Verehoven's Starship Troopers, which adapts
(18:50):
a very racist book, like the book is Hella racist
that's super paramilitary pro everything. And what Verehoven did is
he essentially adapted it so to the notes of the
book that.
Speaker 3 (19:03):
It became a satire of itself.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
She's the point, right, So you can even disagree and
show your disagreement by saying, hey, what does this look
like when you really put it up there? As this
person is saying, and I think this comes up with
another thing that I know is super important to us
both growing up, which is Harry Potter is like, actually,
you actually sometimes like you shouldn't change that, because guess what,
(19:27):
that's how we know she sucks.
Speaker 3 (19:29):
Like you go back in the books.
Speaker 2 (19:30):
You read the names she gave people, You read the
fact that she's making the Irish kids power being blowing up.
Guess what when you adapt that, stick to it, stick
to your guns. If you want to adapt her, that's
what you're adapting. So I kind of love this. There
are times you can change the text, but at all
times like, why are you telling the story if it's
not about those themes or at least in reaction to
(19:52):
those themes.
Speaker 1 (19:52):
Yes, at least in reaction an understanding of the original
intention of themes is I think critical to.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
Him That's why I think something like this goes back
to our you know, we've had this conversation on our
anime adaptation episode. But I would say something like Ghost
in the Shelle, Dragon ball Z. Those remakes are bad
for many reasons in America, but mostly because they can
textually do not understand the theme.
Speaker 3 (20:14):
That's the most interesting thing. It's like, yeah, the casting
is bad, the movie is badly made.
Speaker 2 (20:19):
They think they can just go action movie, but it's
Dragon ball Z or action movie but it's Ghost in
the Shell. But Ghost in the Shell is about the
demilitarization of Japan and how Yeah, then that forced them
into this technological space like there's so much there that
you can't just go okay, yeah, I'm just making it.
Speaker 1 (20:34):
Yeah, it's not just a rapper and an IP to
make whatever movie you want to make, totally, and it's
about engaging with the original text.
Speaker 3 (20:43):
If that is the log line of this episode, that's
the one.
Speaker 2 (20:46):
It's not just a rapper and IP, Like, come on, guys,
let's have an adapt Okay, final a boo adaptation rule.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
Last thing to wrap up today, rule number three, And
this is one as a purist where I'm actually advocating
for change. I think rule number three is that a
creator should use their chosen medium to be additive to
the original text, and they should play to their strengths.
They should make changes that make that story fit better
into the shape that you're now putting it in. If
(21:15):
it is a book, don't just translate that the text
of the book into a script. That is going to
be a bad script. It's never going to make sense
on film. Dannyville love understands this. There's so much dense
lore in the Dune universe, and yet the films don't
feel exposition heavy. There's no clunky voiceover that explains thing
(21:36):
to you, thinks to you. Danny Ville Neve does a
lot of showing because you understand the medium of film
that I'm putting pictures up on screen and you can
see them and interpret them. I don't need to constantly
say things and explain things.
Speaker 2 (21:49):
Like the visual exposition of just like showing what's on
the screen, rather than having someone go, hey, this is
this family and this is that family and blah blah blah.
Speaker 3 (21:57):
Yeah, yeah, no. I did think that was really great.
Speaker 2 (22:00):
Also loved that first movie because it just feels like
a like a BBC four part special that they would
have played like a very high budget one. But the
narrative like fictional, the the trail that it takes is
very much in that like not afraid to be slow,
not afraid to just take its time. I also love
this because my last agreement on this, I think this
(22:22):
is a wonderful take and I think is maybe the
most important of your rules. I'm gonna go for one
that is pretty much like it is a very straight
adaptation in a way, which is David Fincher's Gone Girl
adapting to Jillian the book.
Speaker 3 (22:35):
But what he brought to it that the book, the
Gillian's films book.
Speaker 2 (22:39):
Always have like a dark tone, right, That's how she is.
The movie adaptations are similar. But something that.
Speaker 3 (22:49):
Was really able to be captured by Fincher was just.
Speaker 2 (22:52):
The the looming, dark, unsettling nature of like being settled
into a marriage.
Speaker 3 (22:59):
You don't want to like.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
This, this this domestic horror. He was able to bring
to it that in my opinion, like past it's domestic horror,
you know, And in my opinion like that is such
a fantastic take on the book. And I think, like
when you I talk about additive those performances by Rosamond
Pike and Ben Affleck and even Tyler Perry and you
(23:22):
know now believed and we forget about him scandalized. But like,
but but everything about that movie was additive to the
point where like, I usually will choose to if I'm
thinking about a story I like, and I will go
back and read the book with Gonga. Pretty much every time,
I'll just watch the movie because I think, like Tonally,
Fincher understood what his playbook was and how well it
(23:43):
would work with Flynn's and I think that's why it's
such a fantastic and the exactly so.
Speaker 3 (23:48):
I love that one. Oh and boo, thank you so
much for joining me. This was the life.
Speaker 2 (23:53):
Yeah, I'm really happy. And guys, you got it in
the discord. You gotta let us know what you think
of a boost rules. I think that are most sensible
rules that we've laid out so on edythe I help.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
So yeah, and if you're enjoying The Witcher season four,
please keep enjoying it. Yeah. Yeah, we don't have any
is just for me. I'm the one losing sleep over it.
Y'all enjoy it, you know what?
Speaker 3 (24:12):
We We love everything here and we love that other
people don't love. And we like, you know, we like stuff.
We don't like stuff that other people do love. That's
the joy of being a fan. And yes, it's far.
Enjoying it. Keep enjoying it. Larry Fishburn, I love you,
Get a wig on a.
Speaker 2 (24:26):
Living it, get that Netflix money. I love you. You've
been killing it since death. Wish knowing great, great, good job.
I love you, Laurret's Fishburn.
Speaker 3 (24:35):
That is the episode.
Speaker 2 (24:36):
Thank you for listening, and guys, happy holidays.
Speaker 3 (24:40):
And stay safe. This season.
Speaker 2 (24:47):
X ray Vision is hosted by Jason steps Young and
Rosie Night and is a production of iHeart Podcast. Our
executive producers are Joel Monique and Aaron Korfman.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
Our supervising producer is Abusafar.
Speaker 2 (24:58):
Our producers are Common, Laurent Dean Jonathan and Fay Wack.
Speaker 1 (25:02):
A theme song is by Brian Vasquez, with alternate theme
songs by Aaron Kaufman.
Speaker 2 (25:07):
Special thanks to Soul Rubin, Chris Lord, Kenny Goodman and
Heidi our discord moderator
Hosts And Creators
Jason Concepcion
Rosie Knight
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