December 16, 2024 • 41 mins
To finish out the Robert Eggers series of Xtras, producers Joelle Monique and Carmen Laurent are back today to discuss the 2022 movie The Northman! It’s manly, its wild, its a little bit witchy, but how does it stack up to Egger’s other works? We discuss all of that and more in the episode. Christmas is almost here, and that can only mean one thing: Nosferatu!
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Warning, Today's episode contains spoilers for The Northman and all
previous Eggers films, so be aware. Hello.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
My name is Joel Week and I'm Carmen Lalan and.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
Welcome to Xtray Vision Extras, an x Ray Vision series
where we dive even more of your favorite shows, movies, comics,
and pop culture. Every superhero team needs a side quest,
and our rotating panel of producers and guests hosts will
be suited up to help Jason and Rosy cover all
of the amazing nerd content out there.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
And today we're back with our final Robert Eggers Extras
episode in preparation for the highly anticipated Christmas release of
No Seratu next week. And today we're going to be
recapping his twenty twenty two film The Northmen. Oh yeah,
(01:08):
we're still dog themes.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
Yes, we never we never leave dog themes with Egress.
He's very much and we'll get into it a little
bit above. The animal inside of man, I think is
a strong theme we see throughout his work. But yeah,
let's let's dive into the airlock.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
Okay, so just to kind of start out with some
you know, I love I love, I love movie stats,
you know I love Yeah, I'm watching a movie. I
love to google, like how much did this movie cost?
How much did it make? All of that kind of stuff,
So this is interesting to me. I think the thing
that stuck out to me watching this movie is realizing
(01:46):
that this was the biggest and probably the most ambitious
movie that he's made so far. It's his third movie,
it's very, very big, and of course because of that,
it costs a lot of money. It costs somewhere between
seventy to ninety million dollars to make, and it's the
first time in his movie making career so far that
(02:06):
it didn't make that money back. It only made a
sixty nine point six million at the box office, which
is disappointing because it wasn't a bad movie, but it
certainly wasn't my favorite of the Robert Eggars movies.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
Yeah, this movie comes out at a very interesting time.
So it's released like November twenty twenty two, I think
nationally like you'll get you get a premiere of eighteen,
you get some uh or was it in April? This
is it April release?
Speaker 2 (02:37):
Yeah, April twenty release.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
I was gonna say, okay, okay.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
Yeah, it does feel like it could be a Thanksgiving movie, I.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
Think, as my parents came to visit me, and I
always thought it was a holiday But now, if I'm
recalling right, this is our first foray back into theaters.
It's early twenty twenty two. Yeah, so this is post
Maverick that's come out. People loved it. That did like
bonkers at the box office, but it was a feel good,
uptick kind of movie where if you look at the Northman,
(03:05):
you know, here's a heavy, kind of very dramatic, almost
Shakespearean experience. And so it's a little bit different, and
I think it maybe was challenging to get people back
in for you know, Scars Guard is a star, Kimmen's
obviously a star, but it's yeah, it's just it's not
(03:26):
it doesn't have the top gun rush of joy that
I think people were really vibing for at the time.
And it definitely is Eggar's largest film, not just in
cast sides, which is like quadrupled from his like what
five person original film The Witch to just maybe four
total actors I think in The Lighthouse and now this one,
we're talking huge sets, tons of extra people. He built
(03:50):
all of those sets. Yeah, and so it's ambitious in
multiple ways, So the sets are historically accurate. As we've
come to know Eggars loves he kind of steps out
side of his dollhouse premise, the thing we've talked about
a lot over our last two shows. Here you get
some elements of it, and we'll dive more into those
a little bit later. But yeah, I do think across
(04:10):
the board a lot of people were kind of like,
eh on it. I really loved this film. What was
your initial reaction to the movie.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
Well, you know, I think it's important to say too.
Like I was telling you about this earlier, but I
completely missed this movie when it was in theaters, and
in all of that, I had no idea that this
movie existed until we started talking about it for the
Robert Eggers series. So I watched it just last week
(04:40):
while I was on a on a cruise ship, which
felt very you know, I guess, kind of Viking e
in a way.
Speaker 1 (04:48):
Sure take it over the seas I see it.
Speaker 2 (04:51):
Yeah, And I have to say it was the one
Robert Eggers movie that I could get my boyfriend to
watch and he actually loved it. He enjoyed it this movie. Yeah,
they sure do. There's obviously not in the same way
as The Lighthouse, where the Lighthouse focuses on themes of
toxic masculinity, this just focuses on themes of masculinity in general,
(05:14):
I think, which is kind of a theme in Norse
mythology and Norse culture and stuff like that. And you know,
I have to say, out of all of the Eggers movies,
it's not my favorite Eggers movie. It's probably my least favorite.
But that doesn't mean I think it's a bad movie.
I think it's a fun movie to watch. I enjoyed
(05:36):
it for the battle scenes, and I enjoyed it for
the storyline, which I was learning about for the first time.
But I also really enjoyed it for the kind of
Eggers for the first time in his movies, I feel
like he does these kind of I don't know if
there's cgi sequences, but there are like these dreamlike sequences
(05:59):
that he's doing showing kind of like the what is
it the Norse the tree, the tree of life type
of Yes, yes, yes, I'm gonna sound kind of ignorant
to Norse culture there, but I thought that was really
interesting and I thought he did a good job with
those things. So I enjoyed it.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
Yeah, listen. I showed up for Alexander Scar's Guard. I
was like, uh. I was like, okay, what I And
then they were like, oh, Arianna, Ariana, I'm having a day.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
You're on Wicked.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
I'm I'm trapped between Wicked and Kendrick and now weirdly
Tyler the Creator. And also I've been reading anyway, I digress,
I digress or okay. So I showed up for Alexander
Scar's Guard. I was like a hunky guy, my vampire fave,
like out here becoming a wolf and fighting in nature.
Like I said, my parents had come to town. So
I was like, this is a perfect dad movie. He
(06:54):
had never been to a a mc Adobe experience. They
don't have those where he lived, and so I was like,
you should call and see Adobe projected film. And he
was like, yes, let's do that. And I was very
much in my dad bag. So I was like, yeah's
the blood and the fighting, like yeah, and then yes, yes,
and they're so oh my god. And we were speaking
(07:15):
a little bit earlier. This is a film that has
much less atmosphere than is typical of an Edgar's film
that we've come to know so far. But the moments
that do give atmosphere. The initial fight sequence when he
gets in the boat and he's traveling up river after
he's left his like you know, he's run away from
home because he saw his dad got gone and they
were like, damn, he's coming for me. He gets in
the boat and he ends up with another tribe. They're
(07:36):
like pillaging and raiding. That whole sequence of in the boat,
out of the boat, into the village. It's just it's
such a long and again, what Edgars really understands about
Atmosphere is like, well, there's not a lot of a
narrative happening. There is a lot of story happening. And
I guess by that, I mean you're understanding what it
is to be part of this group. You understand what
(07:58):
it is a part to be uh, just a regular
villager who at any time could have vikings just descend
upon you and terror your understanding sort of there are
no rules here. I mean, they lock up a bunch
of women and children and burn them alive, burn, and
then everybody else gets enslaved. It is a crazy sequence
of events, and yet you're learning so much and experiencing
(08:18):
so much, Like I really appreciate film that has the
ability to do that, to just one hundred percent submerge
you into a story anything. Yeah, that part, so that
works really well for me. Other elements that work really well.
All of our women are at Conic Conic. Nicole Kidman
as a bitchy mom, I pledge my life, please ruin me, Like,
(08:40):
let's go.
Speaker 2 (08:43):
Yes, yes, yes.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
You have Byork being Buorick in the Yorkiest way. I
just oh man, wait, I needed more. We have to
pause and talk about Buyork. Okay, so you're a big
fan you yes, you love the Buorg talk to me
because we were talking about the film and you were like, wait,
she's in this house and you were like, break down
the door. No one told me, where was everyone on this?
(09:09):
Talk to me about this? This magnificent moment with Yorg.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
Oh yeah, that was probably my favorite scene of the
movie where she's kind of she's kind of like, uh,
prophesizing his life to him and kind of what what
his future holds and all of this, And I thought
I thought the costume design was epic because it didn't
feel it didn't feel like your typical kind of fantasy
(09:34):
movie where it was obviously taking liberties on the type
of costume that the person she looked like she was
actually wearing, like an what I would imagine a witch
of that time period would.
Speaker 1 (09:45):
Be historical accuracy. He's not gonna note.
Speaker 2 (09:48):
His and I really really and I really appreciate that
about his movies, and it just felt like I, for me,
I needed more Nicole Kidman, I needed more Bure and
I needed more will and Dafoe too. You know, when
I when I saw this movie.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
Willem Dafoe, I think is an actor who understands how
to elevate atmosphere. It's something we'll talk about more in
his role in No Saratu when we get there. But
I think particularly in the Lighthouse and here you can
constantly see his ability to like just vibe with the
crazy and he's like electric, like he kind of just
(10:27):
want to keep looking at him and he feels and
I how do I say this without sounding like a bitch?
His face lends him the ability to disappear to me, Okay,
so like listen, I guess he does. He has a face.
I think that there are faces built for screen. Some
(10:47):
of them are beautiful, some of them are just dynamic, right,
And I think there's nothing wrong with either. I say,
this is a non beautiful person, like I really just
enjoy a dynamic face. I think dynamic faces help tell stories.
But we love looking at beautiful people. But there's something
about seeing somebody who feels like they are authentically of
the world and not pedestaled or you know whatever that
(11:09):
sort of helps you and beauty to the story. And
Dafoe has that in spades, and he does such a
great job here at time or the fool from drinking
the pistol, like saying their prayer to just a fire
to like really again using this sort of typical history,
like the fool in court history. I'm not as familiar
(11:31):
with Nordick history. We'll circle back to that in a second.
But if you look at like French, British, Spanish cultures
and the fool, like this is a storyteller. This is
someone who takes your mind off things. This is also
somebody who can occasionally be a snappy, comeback sidekick to
the rulers. And when we have people and they're presenting,
you know, they can say things the king cannot and
yet let that sort of be within the space. And
(11:51):
so for him to be both an advisor to the
king but also sort of this guardian for this kid
for a short time. Like I really think he imbues
a lot into this movie, and I think Edgar would
be why need to work with Willon Dafoe because he
brings a lot to his films. And then just to
finish our conversation around the women, like Anya Taylor Joy
does some ape plus acting in this, like she is phenomenal,
(12:16):
Like yeah, she's beautiful, but it's fine because that's sort
of the character is, like, here's this gorgeous woman who
longs to be free, he's not about to let herself
be captured. Who's got these freaking I love her power
set in this like she's kind of a clairvoyant, kind
of a dream walker sort of vibe is so like
ethereal and feels very like nature based, which which.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
I'm ground with, which it yeah, it feels.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
Yeah, she's not shooting sparks out of her fingers or
she she does eventually like at one point, like it
seems to change the set of a storm, but you know,
she there is an element of her where you're like, oh,
this shit could survive the craziness of this world world,
And I think that's really cool to see in an Anya.
(13:04):
I think that Eggers tends to like really wayfish looking
women who survive situations they couldn't. There's an element of
that that is, well so where it's that's you know,
let me put it this way. In comic books, for
a while, there was one body type for women. It
(13:25):
was zero waste and all boobs. And while we loved
Storm and Gene and all of them, they did not
fully represent the everyone array of women that are, you know,
on this planet. And so I think there's a little
bit of elements with that. Yeah, I think there's elements
of that in Egger's work. It's something I hope to
(13:48):
see him move beyond, because for the films we've seen
of him so far, women are there aren't as many
and they're all sort of the same hype arch type. Yeah,
so I'll put that there. Uh, Which, But with that said,
I do like Anya in this role. I do like
this role, like Listen, Warrior would be princess come on, like,
(14:09):
I'm totally here for it, Slash, which she's great.
Speaker 2 (14:12):
I was going to say to that point, he originally
wanted somebody who was kind of as he described homely
to play Anya Taylor Joy's character in The Witch, Thomas said,
but then the casting director kind of pushed him towards
an Anya Taylor Joy casting and I kind of respect
I guess. I guess I respect his ability to take
(14:34):
other people's advice and other people's you know, thoughts into mind. Yeah, yeah, sorry, continue.
Speaker 1 (14:41):
Yeah, no, I think I think making that choice. Really again,
there is something to be said about how we treat
gorgeous women or women who are perceived as being more
beautiful within the world, and the unfair things that are
often heaped on those types of women, like the all
of the things like she if you live in a
periit in society and you are actually as beautiful as
Annie Taylor Joy and you're an intelligent person, like, that's
(15:04):
a hell for you. Like Puritan society is not going
to be a good Your very existis is considered an
evil temptation to people. Like that's difficult, I think here
in a world of conquerors and conquests to be alone, uh,
you know, not physically imposing woman who is again considered beautiful, Like,
(15:25):
that's a dangerous and difficult position to navigate. These people
take what they want and kill everything else, like it's
not a great space. And so that exactly so that
in and of itself imbues interest to the character's story.
And again I think it's very valid narrative. I just again,
as far as all of these worlds you're setting up, Well,
(16:02):
if we're gonna go on this check, let's talk about
the guys we've seen so far, right, which I think
we've got a religious Zelo in the Witch who moves
his whole family to the wilderness, lies to his wife,
her family. Okay. Then we have two men in the
light House, one a young guy who is hiding from
(16:25):
a life of crime and an older man who's been
sort of shut up in this one place for years
and is maybe insane. Yeah, and then here you get
scars guards character Amleth. This is actually based off the
Nordic story Amleth, which is the inspiration for Shakespeare's Hamlett
(16:46):
and Amleth and Hamlet princes who idolized their daddies.
Speaker 2 (16:52):
Mm hmm. Ethan Hawk, which I mean I would too.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
Ethan Hawk plays such a good king here, put more
crowns on his head. He's so hot. And then you
know you have Fiorier played by classiest bang who is incredible.
I love classes in this. He's very good, you know,
jealous brother who is out for power, so you're really
(17:21):
dealing with, like again, power struggles. But again I think
that showcases that Egars has a wide variety of men.
I just think you could do better on women. That's
where I'm at in the third film. But now that
we're talking about masculinity, you had brought up earlier this
idea of exploring different types of masculinity between the Lighthouse
and the Northmen, and I really wanted you to expand
(17:42):
upon that because it was very interested in that.
Speaker 2 (17:44):
So yeah, I had a lot of thoughts about it,
because you know, we talked about how The Witch was
received not necessarily set out to be a story about
basically a feminist story, a good for her kind of
feminist story, and then the Lighthouse is a story that
was received as a story about two men that were
(18:07):
both very kind of toxic in their masculinity and also
struggling power dynamics. And that's the Lighthouse. And then with
this story, and you know, I think it, you know,
it's interesting to consider here that this is not necessarily
what Robert Eggers is setting out to do with his movies.
But this is I think, how the public is perceiving
(18:30):
the movies. So our host Jason pointed out that when
this movie came out, which again totally lost on me,
because I actually think I wasn't the target. I was
not the target audience for this movie, you know. And
he pointed out that when this movie came out, it
resonated with a lot of men in the kind of
(18:52):
alt right kind of scene. Because Nordic, Nordic religion and
culture is is like, is I guess kind of what's
the word I'm looking for here? It's it's used to
mean something totally different by people.
Speaker 1 (19:10):
With Nordic symbolism is often co opted by white supremacist
spaces as being like are pure white spaces that are
above and beyond the rest of society, and they use
you know, the tattoos, the figures, this sort of Viking
ideology in modern day which is disturbing. We can say that.
Speaker 2 (19:32):
And it seems like the stories that come out of
out of Norse mythology are also very focused on like
masculinity being like the like a be all end all
of society. If you're not a mighty man, then You're nothing,
and so I kind of found that interesting to kind
(19:53):
of look back on, especially within twenty twenty two, not
that things are much different in twenty twenty four, but
just to see kind of remember and reflect on where
we were at at that moment in time, and just
it's interesting how these movies get received by the public.
And I think the target audience, whether intentional or not,
(20:15):
for this movie were definitely those types of guys who
were white supremacist kind of like you know, very into
that Norse mythology stuff, and of course more people than
that saw it.
Speaker 1 (20:27):
Yeah, I definitely think they gravitated toward the film, but
like they would do for anything, it doesn't matter, like
if you say Viking the Ears immediately perk op I,
do you think for the Like what's really interesting about
this picture and the ways it's tackling masculine is all
about sort of inheritance, like what is your right as
(20:49):
a princeling basically, but then also like as a man,
like what is what path are you forging for yourself?
It's much less contained like Lighthouse gives you talking masculinity
of two men trapped in a room trying to figure
out who's going to be at the top this. They
give the whole world to Amlith, Like you could travel
(21:11):
to the New World, you could go to Iceland, you
could stay here and start a family, you could die,
like really, like any possible future outcome is your worse
to select. And so if that's the case, then what
you're getting at is what's the most honorable thing this
character feels like he can do. And I think the
film sort of leads it up to the audience interpret
(21:32):
whether this is positive or negative. But like, to him,
the only thing that matters is avenging his father right,
not a future, not even his own name, but just
this in writing this Deep Injustice. It's a film that
I think doesn't need to worry too much about its
(21:53):
messaging because it's evolving from hundreds of thousands of years
old narrative. I don't know how old Amleth is, but
it I don't think Eggars is that concerned with like
what you walk away with from this film, which is
interesting because it's his most narrative forward film, but because
he's so hyper focused on the history and the adaptation,
(22:16):
which you're really sort of left with, Like, man, that
Viking fight was cool, Like they fought on a volcano.
Oh my god, that's effing sick. Or you know, you
get the moment with the sacrifice where he kills one
of the slave watchers in the hut and leaves the
body for the people diver. Oh my god, that was
really cool and graphic and wow, or you get, you know,
(22:38):
sort of this coupling with olga Anya's character in the woods,
which is really sort of serene and beautiful and a
lovely respite in the middle of all of this, like Gore,
and you really are moving from tonally being more about
the nature like he tonality before was really these woods
are spooky. Look at this thick fog. The ocean is roaring,
(23:00):
and it's giving you a lot of poetic artistic imagery. Okay, cool,
where this is really giving you the tonality of Shakespeare.
I'm having a hard time articulating exactly what I mean,
but I think it's just that the tone is more.
These motifs are really cool, and they have been applied
to a story that I'm familiar enough with I don't
(23:22):
have to really ask that many questions. The actors should
click in and know immediately like what the narrative is about.
And so we can move from through this well known narrative.
We just really heightened visual vibes. The Viking town was
really cool. This volcano setting is nope Iceland sparse, and
as they're building up this small community, it looks really.
Speaker 2 (23:45):
Cool, which it really was filmed in Iceland too.
Speaker 1 (23:49):
Yeah, given as much as we have talked about how
much we like atmosphere and how it's played, how do
you feel the absence of it affected your viewing of
this movie.
Speaker 2 (23:58):
So I know a lot of people complain about, you know,
about the use of too much atmosphere because it does
make the story I guess feel like it drags personally,
that I think is what hooks me. Just because I'm
such a vibes person, I guess like I enjoy I
enjoy taking in all the vibes. I was definitely had
(24:21):
fun with the battle scenes that I wanted more of
the atmosphere. The scenes that I think felt most atmospheric
to me were, of course, like you said, the volcano
scene and the ocean and stuff like that. But also
I really enjoyed like the smaller scenes where it was
just a few actors, like the Shaman scene with William
Dafoe's character where they're doing like this kind of dinner animal. Yeah,
(24:47):
and then of course I really enjoyed the scene with Buorick.
Those are the scenes that stuck out the most to
me because I think that they were the most like
atmosphere heavy, the most vibes heavy to me. So I
kind of missed it in this movie. I kind of
I wanted more of it because I don't, you know,
I don't love you know, I'm not somebody who like
(25:07):
craves on screen violence so much.
Speaker 1 (25:12):
I do. I love a bloody human, I think, especially
if I studied fight choreography in high school and college,
and I just always have such appreciation for people who
can do it and make it look real and like
when they're taking it to the blows from these swords,
oh god, it's the fight coordination is phenomenal in this film.
(25:32):
But to your point, when I think back about like
what scenes resonate the most to me, the most impactful scene,
it's probably him sneaking into his mom's room as an
adult to like confront her for the first time and realizing, oh,
this woman not only didn't love me, was absolutely in
cahoots to get my father killed. Like the devastation of
(25:53):
that sequence, the reality of it, the and again the
fact that it's to me Eggers's best in his bad
and nobody's doing any talking, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (26:02):
Like, yeah, that is not the same thing. She seduces
him too, or tries to seduce him.
Speaker 1 (26:08):
Yeah. Yeah, But that's what I'm saying, Like, there's these
moments that for Edgars, it's it's the quieter, more intonated
space where you the viewwork can fill in gaps and
be appalled or struck by just a simple image, you know,
(26:29):
a treasured item on a desk we thought was lost forever,
or a look between mother and summer. We're like, what
is about to have? Why? Why this? It's man? I do?
I do wish we had more of that here. But
I also think a lot of people were pushing for
more commercially accessible work from Edgars coming off, because The
(26:53):
Lighthouse did have its fair share of folks who were like,
this is too weird, it's too much. But I like
about Northman is that we don't fully lose that. Though
we were talking before we started about that the level
of flatulence jokes still present in this film, and I
had mentioned that I thought that because Edgers is such
(27:14):
a history buff that perhaps this crude humor is a
reflection of the types of true humor we see and like,
there's a good Shakespeare line.
Speaker 2 (27:23):
But yeah, I believe that Edgar's studied at a Shakespeare
like a big Shakespeare college.
Speaker 1 (27:31):
Yeah. Yeah, he's a Shakespearean uh like scholar.
Speaker 2 (27:37):
Yes, and the way I was looking for, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:39):
Yeah, he's a Shakespearean scholar. Plus, you know, he reads
a lot of these things. And if you're reading old
plays or uh like, novellas and stuff like, especially things
though considering, okay, like for plays are for the masses, right,
so anybody poor rich can go see a play back
in the day. And then books tended to be you know,
you have to have a little education in order to
(28:00):
be able to read them. But anything that was made
for your common person typically had a ton of fart jokes.
Here's something from the Comedy of Errors from Shakespeare. If
you break anything, I'll break your foolish head. A man
may break a word with you, sir, and words are
but wind I and break it in your face, so
he break it not behind. I could break a word
with you, sir, and words are only wind.
Speaker 2 (28:24):
I just love that fart jokes are a continual source
of comedy throughout the course of human history. I guess
we've always just found them funny.
Speaker 1 (28:34):
We love crudeness. We really can't help ourselves. Okay, there
is a moment and another one Shakespeare's Pays where the
dog is going to be win for farting, but the
servant takes credit for the fart and so he gets
whipped instead. There's a line from King Lear where it says,
blow winds and crack your cheeks, rage and blow I
(28:56):
see you Shakespeare. Yeah, Lawrence talks about getting whipped in
two gentlemen from Verona. So yeah, the fire jokes are resplendent.
And I think there's an element of sort of old
school storytelling applied to all of Eggar's films that sort
of makes me think these films are going to be
(29:17):
accessible for the long run. Right, If you're constantly relaying
your stories based off history, there's a feeling that people
will want to be able to return to these because
these stories are eternal. I do wonder if in adapting
these stories, like if Eggars is bothering or even needs
(29:41):
to speak to a modern audience again us to something else.
Talk much more about Nosaratu, because I have lots of
thoughts on it, But with this one, I think I
sort of let it slide because I was very into
the Oh, it's Hamlet set in Viking times. It's based
off the play that inspired Hamlet, like all of that
was really working, and from an editation perspective, going back
(30:04):
to the original source text is vastly interesting. It sort
of gives much more life because so Ophelia destroys me
a little bit because she's like, I'm just very like
Ophilia has reasons to be sad. But in the play,
if you're not getting the backstory, that happens very fast,
you're really like, Wow, this girl is whiny and then
she just runs off and dies. It's so sad. I
(30:27):
love the idea of the Ophilia type character being like
a witch who has helped entrap slavers that escaped and
has a hot, hunky husband. Good for you, girl, you
get it. And now twins, what a look she made it.
Speaker 2 (30:43):
I love that he loves to put twins in his
movies too.
Speaker 3 (30:46):
It.
Speaker 1 (30:47):
We'll talk more about ones when we get back. Really
a quick break and we'll be right back, okay, And
we're back. Twins. Yeah, we know Robert Egger has twin siblings.
(31:07):
I love that they're always just popping up. It seems
like such a lovely nod to them. Twins in different
pieces of old fiction are either they're like weird to
older what's up with these twins? They're so rare, like
are they connected? Are they a bad omen? A good
omen And I sort of love the way he uses
(31:30):
them throughout in The Witch. They are creepy and unnerving
and you kind of never know what they're gonna do here.
They seem like a positive, like auspicious omen for the
future of this land. That by getting this revenge and
taking out this evil man and this like not great kingdom,
you sort of give positive life and space to the
(31:51):
surrounding communities. And they have a new leader and they
have a good mother, and so we won't deal with
the same kind of trauma we had before. And maybe
maybe that's what Egress was going for. He was like,
you know what we could really be doing here is
solving our family trauma by killing it. Just just kill
your family's trauma.
Speaker 2 (32:10):
No, I agree, I could definitely see that.
Speaker 1 (32:13):
I think maybe we can count the twins as atmosphere.
You know, another thing I wanted to talk to you
a little bit about was we've talked about the dollhouse
element throughout his films. In Here, you know, we get
these larger lande I think the Viking Village, the first
one that we sort of explore is it's definitely part
(32:35):
of the dollhouse. It has the same hovering, sort of
floaty camera that we get in the opening shots of
the lighthouse to sort of explore what's happening in this community.
And I find it interesting that if the dollhouse is
meant to be a confining structure that leads to a
(32:58):
building of ten, is that lost when we have so
many dollhouses. The Icelandic Village, the original sort of Germanic
Viking village, and maybe the Witch's Hut are sort of
the most distinct dollhouses I can't think of in here.
Maybe the opening the castle at the top. You get
(33:20):
a little bit of it there, but again you're there
for such a short time. I wonder if this also
is part of the loss of atmosphere, Is that by
opening up his world so much, what do we lose
from him?
Speaker 2 (33:34):
I think what I concluded after watching this movie is
that Robert Eggers is at his best when he does
things very small and no hate to you know, all
of the cool, the cool scenes that we go to,
all of the cool sets that we go to, and
(33:55):
all of the battle scenes and all of that. I
just think, as he has said in his own words,
it's after the Lighthouse came out, before the Northmen came out.
He said that his stories are about telling simple stories.
And I really think that that is his strong suit,
is telling these small, simple stories that are kind of
(34:17):
contained within a single dollhouse or two dollhouses or whatever.
I think Once he starts to expand the dollhouses and
has multiple of them, we lose the atmosphere, we lose
kind of the simpleness of what I think makes his
work so good. And for me, that's just what I
(34:40):
remember thinking to myself as like, Wow, this guy really
does his best stuff with a small budget, with a
few actors in like a couple of locations, versus I
agree the big stuff.
Speaker 1 (34:54):
Yeah, I think The Northman it's like a good It's first,
it's like a ninety percent on Rotten Tomatoes. It's is
a good movie. I don't want anyone to walk up.
I didn't like it. I enjoy this movie. I just
think for the things that Eggers brings to the table
that excites me as a director. I just feel like
anybody could have directed the Northman.
Speaker 2 (35:12):
Yes, that's a very good way.
Speaker 1 (35:14):
I know. It doesn't feel like oh Eggers here, he
is present in his bag. I just feel like any
Hollywood director with you know, a fair amount of knowledge
on filmmaking could come up with a decent version of
this story.
Speaker 2 (35:31):
And absolutely, I.
Speaker 1 (35:34):
Okay, I understand that he was passionate about it. But
I think what really makes both The Lighthouse and The
Witch work for me is like these are films with
like immediate narratives, right, They're really like the Witch narrative
is yes, old and inspired by history, but continuously things
we're seeing today. And I think specifically, I feel like
(35:56):
like Instagram culture around the time that movie comes out,
like there's a lot of prevalent messaging. I think The
Lighthouse a ton of prevalent messaging about toxic masculinity, about
how men interact with one another. Here. Again, it's a
fine story, it's what we've seen a lot, But I
just don't feel the kind of urgency in the storytelling,
(36:18):
and while that maybe isn't effective for all people, it
certainly diminishes a bit for me the watching experience.
Speaker 2 (36:25):
Yeah, agreed, No, I agree completely. I think I think, like,
just like you said, any director could have made this movie,
because there's there's not a whole lot about it that
feels like it has that Eggor's stamp on it. You know,
there's a few themes that I think kind of carry
over from the other movies. But I do feel like
this could have easily been any other big Hollywood director,
(36:48):
you know.
Speaker 1 (36:49):
A grade. Yeah, so the Northman, you know, I think
I encourage people to watch it. I think it's fun.
Let's talk about where you rate it amongst the film
thus far to close out. Okay, yeah, so you were
saying this is your least favorite of the Eggs direct.
Speaker 2 (37:08):
Yes, but again I don't hate it. I think it
was no watch.
Speaker 1 (37:12):
Yeah, yeah, I think it would just be at the bottom, right.
Speaker 2 (37:17):
And if I wrote a list it honestly, it goes
in chronological order. From me, My favorite is The Witch,
than the Lighthouse, and then The Northmen and then I
haven't seen No Saratu yet, but I'm excited for it.
Speaker 1 (37:30):
I'm gonna hold my no Saratu reading until we get
to know Su. But I think my most favorite is
definitely The Witch. Then I do think The Northman is
second favorite. And here's why. I don't think it's a
better film than the Lighthouse, but for me, it's an
easier watch. I don't love people fighting again. I love
blood and sling a sword, sure, but like direct, intense, emotional,
(37:51):
your face fighting gives me anxiety. Yeah, And well, I
think the it's a much more am vicious and probably
overall successful film the Lighthouse is. And by ambitious I
mean putting two actors in a room and trying to
get a plus performances out of both of them and
bring an audience to theaters to watch that. And it's
(38:12):
in black and white and a weird aspect ratio, Like
all of that stuff is dangerous and risky, and it's
definitely something that investors and studios would pause before, you know,
launching into. Whereas The Northman vikings big sets, historic epic
that's a little bit easier to sell because audiences are
much more familiar with it. So even though the production
(38:34):
wise that was more ambitious, I think on a creativity
level less so but it's fun to watch. I can
whip it out with my dad, you kind of. It's
one of those movies I love having on in the
background when I'm working because every time you look up,
the screen is just so beautiful. I really really appreciate
the use of natural colors. It's a weird thing to
(38:54):
say all films are colorized, but there's something that feels
so like the night sky, and this movie feels like
a jewel, like it's so beautiful. And I think when
they use natural elements like fire and is like everything
just feels like you can feel the heat. It's like
alive and present. Like cinematography is gorgeous. And even though
there are fart jokes and somebody drinks pea, it happens
(39:16):
intermittently and it is not the whole effing film like Lighthouse,
White House. We're masturbating, we're shitting. Oh, there's shit blowing
in the wind. I can't with the light. The Lighthouse
grosses me out, even though I do think it's so good.
Speaker 2 (39:28):
It's gross.
Speaker 1 (39:29):
Yeah, it's disgusting. So I put it on for a second,
but only because the disgusting factor of the Lighthouse. It's
it's a tad too far for me to watching on
the regular, But yeah, you know, I think this is
a good showing by Eggers. I think by pushing himself
and showing he's capable of handling a lot of these things,
that gives him a lot of leverage for future career moves,
(39:51):
which is good. And I think it's something he needed
to get off of his plate. I think a lot
of especially historically inclined theater inclined people, at some point
are always like, what am I tackling Shakespeare? How am
I gonna do it? What was that gonna look right?
Am I gonna do it? And what? He found a
unique way to bring that to audiences that was fun
(40:12):
and again challenged him, and so I think all of
that worked. I'm excited to see knows for raw Tu
and what he has to sort of say about it.
I'm excited to hear Jason and Rosie's thoughts on it. So, yeah,
let us know your thoughts on the North men, would
love to hear from you. Let us know how you
guys are. Oh that part too, Yes, let us know
your rankings and let us know your feelings overall on
(40:34):
just this retrospective we've had a really good time, Carmen,
I love doing this with you.
Speaker 2 (40:39):
Yeah, it was a lot of fun. I enjoy being
two cinema cinema nerds together, so.
Speaker 1 (40:48):
Well. Join us back here tomorrow for our review of
Lord of the Rings The Ward or hear them Wednesday,
the extras are back together for a wrapup of the
best video games of twenty twenty four, and later in
the week we will be continuing our coverage of Scaleton
Crew be Advised, Ghiltin Recrue releases on two holidays back
to back, so scheduling's gonna get a little lunky, but listen,
we love Star Wars. We're gonna be covering every episode,
(41:10):
so stay tuned for all of those. That's the episode.
Thanks for listening.
Speaker 2 (41:15):
Bye.
Speaker 3 (41:16):
B X ray Vision is hosted by Jason Kitsumsion and
Rosie Knight and is a production of iHeart Podcasts. Our
executive producers are Joelle Smith and Aaron Kaufman. Our supervising
producer is a Boo Zafar. Our producers are Carmen Laurent
(41:38):
and Mia Taylor. Our theme song is by Brian Basquez.
Speaker 2 (41:43):
Special thanks to Soul Rubin and Chris Lord. Kenny Goodman
and Heidi on discoord Moderata
Warning, Today's episode contains spoilers for The Northman and all
previous Eggers films, so be aware. Hello.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
My name is Joel Week and I'm Carmen Lalan and.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
Welcome to Xtray Vision Extras, an x Ray Vision series
where we dive even more of your favorite shows, movies, comics,
and pop culture. Every superhero team needs a side quest,
and our rotating panel of producers and guests hosts will
be suited up to help Jason and Rosy cover all
of the amazing nerd content out there.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
And today we're back with our final Robert Eggers Extras
episode in preparation for the highly anticipated Christmas release of
No Seratu next week. And today we're going to be
recapping his twenty twenty two film The Northmen. Oh yeah,
(01:08):
we're still dog themes.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
Yes, we never we never leave dog themes with Egress.
He's very much and we'll get into it a little
bit above. The animal inside of man, I think is
a strong theme we see throughout his work. But yeah,
let's let's dive into the airlock.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
Okay, so just to kind of start out with some
you know, I love I love, I love movie stats,
you know I love Yeah, I'm watching a movie. I
love to google, like how much did this movie cost?
How much did it make? All of that kind of stuff,
So this is interesting to me. I think the thing
that stuck out to me watching this movie is realizing
(01:46):
that this was the biggest and probably the most ambitious
movie that he's made so far. It's his third movie,
it's very, very big, and of course because of that,
it costs a lot of money. It costs somewhere between
seventy to ninety million dollars to make, and it's the
first time in his movie making career so far that
(02:06):
it didn't make that money back. It only made a
sixty nine point six million at the box office, which
is disappointing because it wasn't a bad movie, but it
certainly wasn't my favorite of the Robert Eggars movies.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
Yeah, this movie comes out at a very interesting time.
So it's released like November twenty twenty two, I think
nationally like you'll get you get a premiere of eighteen,
you get some uh or was it in April? This
is it April release?
Speaker 2 (02:37):
Yeah, April twenty release.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
I was gonna say, okay, okay.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
Yeah, it does feel like it could be a Thanksgiving movie, I.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
Think, as my parents came to visit me, and I
always thought it was a holiday But now, if I'm
recalling right, this is our first foray back into theaters.
It's early twenty twenty two. Yeah, so this is post
Maverick that's come out. People loved it. That did like
bonkers at the box office, but it was a feel good,
uptick kind of movie where if you look at the Northman,
(03:05):
you know, here's a heavy, kind of very dramatic, almost
Shakespearean experience. And so it's a little bit different, and
I think it maybe was challenging to get people back
in for you know, Scars Guard is a star, Kimmen's
obviously a star, but it's yeah, it's just it's not
(03:26):
it doesn't have the top gun rush of joy that
I think people were really vibing for at the time.
And it definitely is Eggar's largest film, not just in
cast sides, which is like quadrupled from his like what
five person original film The Witch to just maybe four
total actors I think in The Lighthouse and now this one,
we're talking huge sets, tons of extra people. He built
(03:50):
all of those sets. Yeah, and so it's ambitious in
multiple ways, So the sets are historically accurate. As we've
come to know Eggars loves he kind of steps out
side of his dollhouse premise, the thing we've talked about
a lot over our last two shows. Here you get
some elements of it, and we'll dive more into those
a little bit later. But yeah, I do think across
(04:10):
the board a lot of people were kind of like,
eh on it. I really loved this film. What was
your initial reaction to the movie.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
Well, you know, I think it's important to say too.
Like I was telling you about this earlier, but I
completely missed this movie when it was in theaters, and
in all of that, I had no idea that this
movie existed until we started talking about it for the
Robert Eggers series. So I watched it just last week
(04:40):
while I was on a on a cruise ship, which
felt very you know, I guess, kind of Viking e
in a way.
Speaker 1 (04:48):
Sure take it over the seas I see it.
Speaker 2 (04:51):
Yeah, And I have to say it was the one
Robert Eggers movie that I could get my boyfriend to
watch and he actually loved it. He enjoyed it this movie. Yeah,
they sure do. There's obviously not in the same way
as The Lighthouse, where the Lighthouse focuses on themes of
toxic masculinity, this just focuses on themes of masculinity in general,
(05:14):
I think, which is kind of a theme in Norse
mythology and Norse culture and stuff like that. And you know,
I have to say, out of all of the Eggers movies,
it's not my favorite Eggers movie. It's probably my least favorite.
But that doesn't mean I think it's a bad movie.
I think it's a fun movie to watch. I enjoyed
(05:36):
it for the battle scenes, and I enjoyed it for
the storyline, which I was learning about for the first time.
But I also really enjoyed it for the kind of
Eggers for the first time in his movies, I feel
like he does these kind of I don't know if
there's cgi sequences, but there are like these dreamlike sequences
(05:59):
that he's doing showing kind of like the what is
it the Norse the tree, the tree of life type
of Yes, yes, yes, I'm gonna sound kind of ignorant
to Norse culture there, but I thought that was really
interesting and I thought he did a good job with
those things. So I enjoyed it.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
Yeah, listen. I showed up for Alexander Scar's Guard. I
was like, uh. I was like, okay, what I And
then they were like, oh, Arianna, Ariana, I'm having a day.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
You're on Wicked.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
I'm I'm trapped between Wicked and Kendrick and now weirdly
Tyler the Creator. And also I've been reading anyway, I digress,
I digress or okay. So I showed up for Alexander
Scar's Guard. I was like a hunky guy, my vampire fave,
like out here becoming a wolf and fighting in nature.
Like I said, my parents had come to town. So
I was like, this is a perfect dad movie. He
(06:54):
had never been to a a mc Adobe experience. They
don't have those where he lived, and so I was like,
you should call and see Adobe projected film. And he
was like, yes, let's do that. And I was very
much in my dad bag. So I was like, yeah's
the blood and the fighting, like yeah, and then yes, yes,
and they're so oh my god. And we were speaking
(07:15):
a little bit earlier. This is a film that has
much less atmosphere than is typical of an Edgar's film
that we've come to know so far. But the moments
that do give atmosphere. The initial fight sequence when he
gets in the boat and he's traveling up river after
he's left his like you know, he's run away from
home because he saw his dad got gone and they
were like, damn, he's coming for me. He gets in
the boat and he ends up with another tribe. They're
(07:36):
like pillaging and raiding. That whole sequence of in the boat,
out of the boat, into the village. It's just it's
such a long and again, what Edgars really understands about
Atmosphere is like, well, there's not a lot of a
narrative happening. There is a lot of story happening. And
I guess by that, I mean you're understanding what it
is to be part of this group. You understand what
(07:58):
it is a part to be uh, just a regular
villager who at any time could have vikings just descend
upon you and terror your understanding sort of there are
no rules here. I mean, they lock up a bunch
of women and children and burn them alive, burn, and
then everybody else gets enslaved. It is a crazy sequence
of events, and yet you're learning so much and experiencing
(08:18):
so much, Like I really appreciate film that has the
ability to do that, to just one hundred percent submerge
you into a story anything. Yeah, that part, so that
works really well for me. Other elements that work really well.
All of our women are at Conic Conic. Nicole Kidman
as a bitchy mom, I pledge my life, please ruin me, Like,
(08:40):
let's go.
Speaker 2 (08:43):
Yes, yes, yes.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
You have Byork being Buorick in the Yorkiest way. I
just oh man, wait, I needed more. We have to
pause and talk about Buyork. Okay, so you're a big
fan you yes, you love the Buorg talk to me
because we were talking about the film and you were like, wait,
she's in this house and you were like, break down
the door. No one told me, where was everyone on this?
(09:09):
Talk to me about this? This magnificent moment with Yorg.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
Oh yeah, that was probably my favorite scene of the
movie where she's kind of she's kind of like, uh,
prophesizing his life to him and kind of what what
his future holds and all of this, And I thought
I thought the costume design was epic because it didn't
feel it didn't feel like your typical kind of fantasy
(09:34):
movie where it was obviously taking liberties on the type
of costume that the person she looked like she was
actually wearing, like an what I would imagine a witch
of that time period would.
Speaker 1 (09:45):
Be historical accuracy. He's not gonna note.
Speaker 2 (09:48):
His and I really really and I really appreciate that
about his movies, and it just felt like I, for me,
I needed more Nicole Kidman, I needed more Bure and
I needed more will and Dafoe too. You know, when
I when I saw this movie.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
Willem Dafoe, I think is an actor who understands how
to elevate atmosphere. It's something we'll talk about more in
his role in No Saratu when we get there. But
I think particularly in the Lighthouse and here you can
constantly see his ability to like just vibe with the
crazy and he's like electric, like he kind of just
(10:27):
want to keep looking at him and he feels and
I how do I say this without sounding like a bitch?
His face lends him the ability to disappear to me, Okay,
so like listen, I guess he does. He has a face.
I think that there are faces built for screen. Some
(10:47):
of them are beautiful, some of them are just dynamic, right,
And I think there's nothing wrong with either. I say,
this is a non beautiful person, like I really just
enjoy a dynamic face. I think dynamic faces help tell stories.
But we love looking at beautiful people. But there's something
about seeing somebody who feels like they are authentically of
the world and not pedestaled or you know whatever that
(11:09):
sort of helps you and beauty to the story. And
Dafoe has that in spades, and he does such a
great job here at time or the fool from drinking
the pistol, like saying their prayer to just a fire
to like really again using this sort of typical history,
like the fool in court history. I'm not as familiar
(11:31):
with Nordick history. We'll circle back to that in a second.
But if you look at like French, British, Spanish cultures
and the fool, like this is a storyteller. This is
someone who takes your mind off things. This is also
somebody who can occasionally be a snappy, comeback sidekick to
the rulers. And when we have people and they're presenting,
you know, they can say things the king cannot and
yet let that sort of be within the space. And
(11:51):
so for him to be both an advisor to the
king but also sort of this guardian for this kid
for a short time. Like I really think he imbues
a lot into this movie, and I think Edgar would
be why need to work with Willon Dafoe because he
brings a lot to his films. And then just to
finish our conversation around the women, like Anya Taylor Joy
does some ape plus acting in this, like she is phenomenal,
(12:16):
Like yeah, she's beautiful, but it's fine because that's sort
of the character is, like, here's this gorgeous woman who
longs to be free, he's not about to let herself
be captured. Who's got these freaking I love her power
set in this like she's kind of a clairvoyant, kind
of a dream walker sort of vibe is so like
ethereal and feels very like nature based, which which.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
I'm ground with, which it yeah, it feels.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
Yeah, she's not shooting sparks out of her fingers or
she she does eventually like at one point, like it
seems to change the set of a storm, but you know,
she there is an element of her where you're like, oh,
this shit could survive the craziness of this world world,
And I think that's really cool to see in an Anya.
(13:04):
I think that Eggers tends to like really wayfish looking
women who survive situations they couldn't. There's an element of
that that is, well so where it's that's you know,
let me put it this way. In comic books, for
a while, there was one body type for women. It
(13:25):
was zero waste and all boobs. And while we loved
Storm and Gene and all of them, they did not
fully represent the everyone array of women that are, you know,
on this planet. And so I think there's a little
bit of elements with that. Yeah, I think there's elements
of that in Egger's work. It's something I hope to
(13:48):
see him move beyond, because for the films we've seen
of him so far, women are there aren't as many
and they're all sort of the same hype arch type. Yeah,
so I'll put that there. Uh, Which, But with that said,
I do like Anya in this role. I do like
this role, like Listen, Warrior would be princess come on, like,
(14:09):
I'm totally here for it, Slash, which she's great.
Speaker 2 (14:12):
I was going to say to that point, he originally
wanted somebody who was kind of as he described homely
to play Anya Taylor Joy's character in The Witch, Thomas said,
but then the casting director kind of pushed him towards
an Anya Taylor Joy casting and I kind of respect
I guess. I guess I respect his ability to take
(14:34):
other people's advice and other people's you know, thoughts into mind. Yeah, yeah, sorry, continue.
Speaker 1 (14:41):
Yeah, no, I think I think making that choice. Really again,
there is something to be said about how we treat
gorgeous women or women who are perceived as being more
beautiful within the world, and the unfair things that are
often heaped on those types of women, like the all
of the things like she if you live in a
periit in society and you are actually as beautiful as
Annie Taylor Joy and you're an intelligent person, like, that's
(15:04):
a hell for you. Like Puritan society is not going
to be a good Your very existis is considered an
evil temptation to people. Like that's difficult, I think here
in a world of conquerors and conquests to be alone, uh,
you know, not physically imposing woman who is again considered beautiful, Like,
(15:25):
that's a dangerous and difficult position to navigate. These people
take what they want and kill everything else, like it's
not a great space. And so that exactly so that
in and of itself imbues interest to the character's story.
And again I think it's very valid narrative. I just again,
as far as all of these worlds you're setting up, Well,
(16:02):
if we're gonna go on this check, let's talk about
the guys we've seen so far, right, which I think
we've got a religious Zelo in the Witch who moves
his whole family to the wilderness, lies to his wife,
her family. Okay. Then we have two men in the
light House, one a young guy who is hiding from
(16:25):
a life of crime and an older man who's been
sort of shut up in this one place for years
and is maybe insane. Yeah, and then here you get
scars guards character Amleth. This is actually based off the
Nordic story Amleth, which is the inspiration for Shakespeare's Hamlett
(16:46):
and Amleth and Hamlet princes who idolized their daddies.
Speaker 2 (16:52):
Mm hmm. Ethan Hawk, which I mean I would too.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
Ethan Hawk plays such a good king here, put more
crowns on his head. He's so hot. And then you
know you have Fiorier played by classiest bang who is incredible.
I love classes in this. He's very good, you know,
jealous brother who is out for power, so you're really
(17:21):
dealing with, like again, power struggles. But again I think
that showcases that Egars has a wide variety of men.
I just think you could do better on women. That's
where I'm at in the third film. But now that
we're talking about masculinity, you had brought up earlier this
idea of exploring different types of masculinity between the Lighthouse
and the Northmen, and I really wanted you to expand
(17:42):
upon that because it was very interested in that.
Speaker 2 (17:44):
So yeah, I had a lot of thoughts about it,
because you know, we talked about how The Witch was
received not necessarily set out to be a story about
basically a feminist story, a good for her kind of
feminist story, and then the Lighthouse is a story that
was received as a story about two men that were
(18:07):
both very kind of toxic in their masculinity and also
struggling power dynamics. And that's the Lighthouse. And then with
this story, and you know, I think it, you know,
it's interesting to consider here that this is not necessarily
what Robert Eggers is setting out to do with his movies.
But this is I think, how the public is perceiving
(18:30):
the movies. So our host Jason pointed out that when
this movie came out, which again totally lost on me,
because I actually think I wasn't the target. I was
not the target audience for this movie, you know. And
he pointed out that when this movie came out, it
resonated with a lot of men in the kind of
(18:52):
alt right kind of scene. Because Nordic, Nordic religion and
culture is is like, is I guess kind of what's
the word I'm looking for here? It's it's used to
mean something totally different by people.
Speaker 1 (19:10):
With Nordic symbolism is often co opted by white supremacist
spaces as being like are pure white spaces that are
above and beyond the rest of society, and they use
you know, the tattoos, the figures, this sort of Viking
ideology in modern day which is disturbing. We can say that.
Speaker 2 (19:32):
And it seems like the stories that come out of
out of Norse mythology are also very focused on like
masculinity being like the like a be all end all
of society. If you're not a mighty man, then You're nothing,
and so I kind of found that interesting to kind
(19:53):
of look back on, especially within twenty twenty two, not
that things are much different in twenty twenty four, but
just to see kind of remember and reflect on where
we were at at that moment in time, and just
it's interesting how these movies get received by the public.
And I think the target audience, whether intentional or not,
(20:15):
for this movie were definitely those types of guys who
were white supremacist kind of like you know, very into
that Norse mythology stuff, and of course more people than
that saw it.
Speaker 1 (20:27):
Yeah, I definitely think they gravitated toward the film, but
like they would do for anything, it doesn't matter, like
if you say Viking the Ears immediately perk op I,
do you think for the Like what's really interesting about
this picture and the ways it's tackling masculine is all
about sort of inheritance, like what is your right as
(20:49):
a princeling basically, but then also like as a man,
like what is what path are you forging for yourself?
It's much less contained like Lighthouse gives you talking masculinity
of two men trapped in a room trying to figure
out who's going to be at the top this. They
give the whole world to Amlith, Like you could travel
(21:11):
to the New World, you could go to Iceland, you
could stay here and start a family, you could die,
like really, like any possible future outcome is your worse
to select. And so if that's the case, then what
you're getting at is what's the most honorable thing this
character feels like he can do. And I think the
film sort of leads it up to the audience interpret
(21:32):
whether this is positive or negative. But like, to him,
the only thing that matters is avenging his father right,
not a future, not even his own name, but just
this in writing this Deep Injustice. It's a film that
I think doesn't need to worry too much about its
(21:53):
messaging because it's evolving from hundreds of thousands of years
old narrative. I don't know how old Amleth is, but
it I don't think Eggars is that concerned with like
what you walk away with from this film, which is
interesting because it's his most narrative forward film, but because
he's so hyper focused on the history and the adaptation,
(22:16):
which you're really sort of left with, Like, man, that
Viking fight was cool, Like they fought on a volcano.
Oh my god, that's effing sick. Or you know, you
get the moment with the sacrifice where he kills one
of the slave watchers in the hut and leaves the
body for the people diver. Oh my god, that was
really cool and graphic and wow, or you get, you know,
(22:38):
sort of this coupling with olga Anya's character in the woods,
which is really sort of serene and beautiful and a
lovely respite in the middle of all of this, like Gore,
and you really are moving from tonally being more about
the nature like he tonality before was really these woods
are spooky. Look at this thick fog. The ocean is roaring,
(23:00):
and it's giving you a lot of poetic artistic imagery. Okay, cool,
where this is really giving you the tonality of Shakespeare.
I'm having a hard time articulating exactly what I mean,
but I think it's just that the tone is more.
These motifs are really cool, and they have been applied
to a story that I'm familiar enough with I don't
(23:22):
have to really ask that many questions. The actors should
click in and know immediately like what the narrative is about.
And so we can move from through this well known narrative.
We just really heightened visual vibes. The Viking town was
really cool. This volcano setting is nope Iceland sparse, and
as they're building up this small community, it looks really.
Speaker 2 (23:45):
Cool, which it really was filmed in Iceland too.
Speaker 1 (23:49):
Yeah, given as much as we have talked about how
much we like atmosphere and how it's played, how do
you feel the absence of it affected your viewing of
this movie.
Speaker 2 (23:58):
So I know a lot of people complain about, you know,
about the use of too much atmosphere because it does
make the story I guess feel like it drags personally,
that I think is what hooks me. Just because I'm
such a vibes person, I guess like I enjoy I
enjoy taking in all the vibes. I was definitely had
(24:21):
fun with the battle scenes that I wanted more of
the atmosphere. The scenes that I think felt most atmospheric
to me were, of course, like you said, the volcano
scene and the ocean and stuff like that. But also
I really enjoyed like the smaller scenes where it was
just a few actors, like the Shaman scene with William
Dafoe's character where they're doing like this kind of dinner animal. Yeah,
(24:47):
and then of course I really enjoyed the scene with Buorick.
Those are the scenes that stuck out the most to
me because I think that they were the most like
atmosphere heavy, the most vibes heavy to me. So I
kind of missed it in this movie. I kind of
I wanted more of it because I don't, you know,
I don't love you know, I'm not somebody who like
(25:07):
craves on screen violence so much.
Speaker 1 (25:12):
I do. I love a bloody human, I think, especially
if I studied fight choreography in high school and college,
and I just always have such appreciation for people who
can do it and make it look real and like
when they're taking it to the blows from these swords,
oh god, it's the fight coordination is phenomenal in this film.
(25:32):
But to your point, when I think back about like
what scenes resonate the most to me, the most impactful scene,
it's probably him sneaking into his mom's room as an
adult to like confront her for the first time and realizing, oh,
this woman not only didn't love me, was absolutely in
cahoots to get my father killed. Like the devastation of
(25:53):
that sequence, the reality of it, the and again the
fact that it's to me Eggers's best in his bad
and nobody's doing any talking, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (26:02):
Like, yeah, that is not the same thing. She seduces
him too, or tries to seduce him.
Speaker 1 (26:08):
Yeah. Yeah, But that's what I'm saying, Like, there's these
moments that for Edgars, it's it's the quieter, more intonated
space where you the viewwork can fill in gaps and
be appalled or struck by just a simple image, you know,
(26:29):
a treasured item on a desk we thought was lost forever,
or a look between mother and summer. We're like, what
is about to have? Why? Why this? It's man? I do?
I do wish we had more of that here. But
I also think a lot of people were pushing for
more commercially accessible work from Edgars coming off, because The
(26:53):
Lighthouse did have its fair share of folks who were like,
this is too weird, it's too much. But I like
about Northman is that we don't fully lose that. Though
we were talking before we started about that the level
of flatulence jokes still present in this film, and I
had mentioned that I thought that because Edgers is such
(27:14):
a history buff that perhaps this crude humor is a
reflection of the types of true humor we see and like,
there's a good Shakespeare line.
Speaker 2 (27:23):
But yeah, I believe that Edgar's studied at a Shakespeare
like a big Shakespeare college.
Speaker 1 (27:31):
Yeah. Yeah, he's a Shakespearean uh like scholar.
Speaker 2 (27:37):
Yes, and the way I was looking for, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:39):
Yeah, he's a Shakespearean scholar. Plus, you know, he reads
a lot of these things. And if you're reading old
plays or uh like, novellas and stuff like, especially things
though considering, okay, like for plays are for the masses, right,
so anybody poor rich can go see a play back
in the day. And then books tended to be you know,
you have to have a little education in order to
(28:00):
be able to read them. But anything that was made
for your common person typically had a ton of fart jokes.
Here's something from the Comedy of Errors from Shakespeare. If
you break anything, I'll break your foolish head. A man
may break a word with you, sir, and words are
but wind I and break it in your face, so
he break it not behind. I could break a word
with you, sir, and words are only wind.
Speaker 2 (28:24):
I just love that fart jokes are a continual source
of comedy throughout the course of human history. I guess
we've always just found them funny.
Speaker 1 (28:34):
We love crudeness. We really can't help ourselves. Okay, there
is a moment and another one Shakespeare's Pays where the
dog is going to be win for farting, but the
servant takes credit for the fart and so he gets
whipped instead. There's a line from King Lear where it says,
blow winds and crack your cheeks, rage and blow I
(28:56):
see you Shakespeare. Yeah, Lawrence talks about getting whipped in
two gentlemen from Verona. So yeah, the fire jokes are resplendent.
And I think there's an element of sort of old
school storytelling applied to all of Eggar's films that sort
of makes me think these films are going to be
(29:17):
accessible for the long run. Right, If you're constantly relaying
your stories based off history, there's a feeling that people
will want to be able to return to these because
these stories are eternal. I do wonder if in adapting
these stories, like if Eggars is bothering or even needs
(29:41):
to speak to a modern audience again us to something else.
Talk much more about Nosaratu, because I have lots of
thoughts on it, But with this one, I think I
sort of let it slide because I was very into
the Oh, it's Hamlet set in Viking times. It's based
off the play that inspired Hamlet, like all of that
was really working, and from an editation perspective, going back
(30:04):
to the original source text is vastly interesting. It sort
of gives much more life because so Ophelia destroys me
a little bit because she's like, I'm just very like
Ophilia has reasons to be sad. But in the play,
if you're not getting the backstory, that happens very fast,
you're really like, Wow, this girl is whiny and then
she just runs off and dies. It's so sad. I
(30:27):
love the idea of the Ophilia type character being like
a witch who has helped entrap slavers that escaped and
has a hot, hunky husband. Good for you, girl, you
get it. And now twins, what a look she made it.
Speaker 2 (30:43):
I love that he loves to put twins in his
movies too.
Speaker 3 (30:46):
It.
Speaker 1 (30:47):
We'll talk more about ones when we get back. Really
a quick break and we'll be right back, okay, And
we're back. Twins. Yeah, we know Robert Egger has twin siblings.
(31:07):
I love that they're always just popping up. It seems
like such a lovely nod to them. Twins in different
pieces of old fiction are either they're like weird to
older what's up with these twins? They're so rare, like
are they connected? Are they a bad omen? A good
omen And I sort of love the way he uses
(31:30):
them throughout in The Witch. They are creepy and unnerving
and you kind of never know what they're gonna do here.
They seem like a positive, like auspicious omen for the
future of this land. That by getting this revenge and
taking out this evil man and this like not great kingdom,
you sort of give positive life and space to the
(31:51):
surrounding communities. And they have a new leader and they
have a good mother, and so we won't deal with
the same kind of trauma we had before. And maybe
maybe that's what Egress was going for. He was like,
you know what we could really be doing here is
solving our family trauma by killing it. Just just kill
your family's trauma.
Speaker 2 (32:10):
No, I agree, I could definitely see that.
Speaker 1 (32:13):
I think maybe we can count the twins as atmosphere.
You know, another thing I wanted to talk to you
a little bit about was we've talked about the dollhouse
element throughout his films. In Here, you know, we get
these larger lande I think the Viking Village, the first
one that we sort of explore is it's definitely part
(32:35):
of the dollhouse. It has the same hovering, sort of
floaty camera that we get in the opening shots of
the lighthouse to sort of explore what's happening in this community.
And I find it interesting that if the dollhouse is
meant to be a confining structure that leads to a
(32:58):
building of ten, is that lost when we have so
many dollhouses. The Icelandic Village, the original sort of Germanic
Viking village, and maybe the Witch's Hut are sort of
the most distinct dollhouses I can't think of in here.
Maybe the opening the castle at the top. You get
(33:20):
a little bit of it there, but again you're there
for such a short time. I wonder if this also
is part of the loss of atmosphere, Is that by
opening up his world so much, what do we lose
from him?
Speaker 2 (33:34):
I think what I concluded after watching this movie is
that Robert Eggers is at his best when he does
things very small and no hate to you know, all
of the cool, the cool scenes that we go to,
all of the cool sets that we go to, and
(33:55):
all of the battle scenes and all of that. I
just think, as he has said in his own words,
it's after the Lighthouse came out, before the Northmen came out.
He said that his stories are about telling simple stories.
And I really think that that is his strong suit,
is telling these small, simple stories that are kind of
(34:17):
contained within a single dollhouse or two dollhouses or whatever.
I think Once he starts to expand the dollhouses and
has multiple of them, we lose the atmosphere, we lose
kind of the simpleness of what I think makes his
work so good. And for me, that's just what I
(34:40):
remember thinking to myself as like, Wow, this guy really
does his best stuff with a small budget, with a
few actors in like a couple of locations, versus I
agree the big stuff.
Speaker 1 (34:54):
Yeah, I think The Northman it's like a good It's first,
it's like a ninety percent on Rotten Tomatoes. It's is
a good movie. I don't want anyone to walk up.
I didn't like it. I enjoy this movie. I just
think for the things that Eggers brings to the table
that excites me as a director. I just feel like
anybody could have directed the Northman.
Speaker 2 (35:12):
Yes, that's a very good way.
Speaker 1 (35:14):
I know. It doesn't feel like oh Eggers here, he
is present in his bag. I just feel like any
Hollywood director with you know, a fair amount of knowledge
on filmmaking could come up with a decent version of
this story.
Speaker 2 (35:31):
And absolutely, I.
Speaker 1 (35:34):
Okay, I understand that he was passionate about it. But
I think what really makes both The Lighthouse and The
Witch work for me is like these are films with
like immediate narratives, right, They're really like the Witch narrative
is yes, old and inspired by history, but continuously things
we're seeing today. And I think specifically, I feel like
(35:56):
like Instagram culture around the time that movie comes out,
like there's a lot of prevalent messaging. I think The
Lighthouse a ton of prevalent messaging about toxic masculinity, about
how men interact with one another. Here. Again, it's a
fine story, it's what we've seen a lot, But I
just don't feel the kind of urgency in the storytelling,
(36:18):
and while that maybe isn't effective for all people, it
certainly diminishes a bit for me the watching experience.
Speaker 2 (36:25):
Yeah, agreed, No, I agree completely. I think I think, like,
just like you said, any director could have made this movie,
because there's there's not a whole lot about it that
feels like it has that Eggor's stamp on it. You know,
there's a few themes that I think kind of carry
over from the other movies. But I do feel like
this could have easily been any other big Hollywood director,
(36:48):
you know.
Speaker 1 (36:49):
A grade. Yeah, so the Northman, you know, I think
I encourage people to watch it. I think it's fun.
Let's talk about where you rate it amongst the film
thus far to close out. Okay, yeah, so you were
saying this is your least favorite of the Eggs direct.
Speaker 2 (37:08):
Yes, but again I don't hate it. I think it
was no watch.
Speaker 1 (37:12):
Yeah, yeah, I think it would just be at the bottom, right.
Speaker 2 (37:17):
And if I wrote a list it honestly, it goes
in chronological order. From me, My favorite is The Witch,
than the Lighthouse, and then The Northmen and then I
haven't seen No Saratu yet, but I'm excited for it.
Speaker 1 (37:30):
I'm gonna hold my no Saratu reading until we get
to know Su. But I think my most favorite is
definitely The Witch. Then I do think The Northman is
second favorite. And here's why. I don't think it's a
better film than the Lighthouse, but for me, it's an
easier watch. I don't love people fighting again. I love
blood and sling a sword, sure, but like direct, intense, emotional,
(37:51):
your face fighting gives me anxiety. Yeah, And well, I
think the it's a much more am vicious and probably
overall successful film the Lighthouse is. And by ambitious I
mean putting two actors in a room and trying to
get a plus performances out of both of them and
bring an audience to theaters to watch that. And it's
(38:12):
in black and white and a weird aspect ratio, Like
all of that stuff is dangerous and risky, and it's
definitely something that investors and studios would pause before, you know,
launching into. Whereas The Northman vikings big sets, historic epic
that's a little bit easier to sell because audiences are
much more familiar with it. So even though the production
(38:34):
wise that was more ambitious, I think on a creativity
level less so but it's fun to watch. I can
whip it out with my dad, you kind of. It's
one of those movies I love having on in the
background when I'm working because every time you look up,
the screen is just so beautiful. I really really appreciate
the use of natural colors. It's a weird thing to
(38:54):
say all films are colorized, but there's something that feels
so like the night sky, and this movie feels like
a jewel, like it's so beautiful. And I think when
they use natural elements like fire and is like everything
just feels like you can feel the heat. It's like
alive and present. Like cinematography is gorgeous. And even though
there are fart jokes and somebody drinks pea, it happens
(39:16):
intermittently and it is not the whole effing film like Lighthouse,
White House. We're masturbating, we're shitting. Oh, there's shit blowing
in the wind. I can't with the light. The Lighthouse
grosses me out, even though I do think it's so good.
Speaker 2 (39:28):
It's gross.
Speaker 1 (39:29):
Yeah, it's disgusting. So I put it on for a second,
but only because the disgusting factor of the Lighthouse. It's
it's a tad too far for me to watching on
the regular, But yeah, you know, I think this is
a good showing by Eggers. I think by pushing himself
and showing he's capable of handling a lot of these things,
that gives him a lot of leverage for future career moves,
(39:51):
which is good. And I think it's something he needed
to get off of his plate. I think a lot
of especially historically inclined theater inclined people, at some point
are always like, what am I tackling Shakespeare? How am
I gonna do it? What was that gonna look right?
Am I gonna do it? And what? He found a
unique way to bring that to audiences that was fun
(40:12):
and again challenged him, and so I think all of
that worked. I'm excited to see knows for raw Tu
and what he has to sort of say about it.
I'm excited to hear Jason and Rosie's thoughts on it. So, yeah,
let us know your thoughts on the North men, would
love to hear from you. Let us know how you
guys are. Oh that part too, Yes, let us know
your rankings and let us know your feelings overall on
(40:34):
just this retrospective we've had a really good time, Carmen,
I love doing this with you.
Speaker 2 (40:39):
Yeah, it was a lot of fun. I enjoy being
two cinema cinema nerds together, so.
Speaker 1 (40:48):
Well. Join us back here tomorrow for our review of
Lord of the Rings The Ward or hear them Wednesday,
the extras are back together for a wrapup of the
best video games of twenty twenty four, and later in
the week we will be continuing our coverage of Scaleton
Crew be Advised, Ghiltin Recrue releases on two holidays back
to back, so scheduling's gonna get a little lunky, but listen,
we love Star Wars. We're gonna be covering every episode,
(41:10):
so stay tuned for all of those. That's the episode.
Thanks for listening.
Speaker 2 (41:15):
Bye.
Speaker 3 (41:16):
B X ray Vision is hosted by Jason Kitsumsion and
Rosie Knight and is a production of iHeart Podcasts. Our
executive producers are Joelle Smith and Aaron Kaufman. Our supervising
producer is a Boo Zafar. Our producers are Carmen Laurent
(41:38):
and Mia Taylor. Our theme song is by Brian Basquez.
Speaker 2 (41:43):
Special thanks to Soul Rubin and Chris Lord. Kenny Goodman
and Heidi on discoord Moderata
Hosts And Creators
Jason Concepcion
Rosie Knight
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