S2E25 The Goodbye Gossip Girl with Norman Buckley

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, I'm Norman Buckley, and I was a director on
Gossip Girl, and we're rewatching the Goodbye Gossip Girl. Welcome back,
listeners to your one and only source into all things

(00:21):
gossip grow. You know you love it. XO x O.
Hey everybody, welcome back to another episode of XO x O.
I'm your host, Jessica's Or and this isn't just another episode.
This is the season two finale. Everyone, the Goodbye Gossip Girl.
I don't know where the time went, but I can

(00:42):
honestly say I'm so excited because I've never seen the
finale before and we have a lot going on. We
have a fight for Queen Bee, the cruise graduation, and
of course a huge Gossip Girl showdown. We have Norman Buckley,
who directed this episode. He's been on the podcast before.
We love him so much as just as a per sin,
as a director, as a producer, as a friend. He's

(01:04):
just all around a wonderful, wonderful person. And I know
that the other episode he did of the podcast, so
many of you loved it and really liked hearing his
insight and his vision, so we're always happy to have
him back. I know all of you listening are Susanna
is hopping on as well, and she and Norman have
not seen each other in years, so you'll be able
to hear the reunion right here on the podcast. It's

(01:25):
pretty special, so let's get into it. The season finale
of season two. Everyone, Hello, Hello, how's it going, sounion?

(01:51):
I'm so excited to see your face. It's so good
to see your face. Oh my goodness. That the three
of us never had a scene together or work together,
actually right, I don't believe so unless there was some
sort of maybe big party all New York City scene,

(02:12):
I was. I was disappointed to see that you weren't
in this episode because I was looking forward to talking
about our work together. But well, we can still talk
about it. But yeah, I actually when I was watching,
I was like, Deronda should have been at the graduation
because I think maybe she would have been in the
merry Back sneaking, And yeah, absolutely should have been at

(02:33):
the graduation. So yeah, actually, do you know when Norman
did his first episode of the podcast, he explained kind
of a situation with like Susanna and Groda and being
more maybe like making her the part a little more
meteor like more I don't know. Do you want to
explain it? I'm not I'm not, like, well, I heard

(02:54):
the episode and it was so tremendous that you talked
about it, Norman, because yeah, and I talked about it
too when I talked to you, Jas, which is that
I think the big turn for Dorota happened under Norman's direction,
and it was his idea to take that take a
moment that was sort of intended for the Eleanor character,
the mother character, and then uh sort of plugged Dorota
into that role, and it allowed that relationship with Blair

(03:16):
to deepen for the first time, and it sort of
set set me up and set Dorota up for, you know,
a sort of a more fleshed out relationship, and then
it kind of had somewhere to go. So it was
this tremendous opening of a door, and thanks to Norman,
I think Tota took on a new life. So it
was huge. I like to think that I had a

(03:36):
hand in that. I remember talking to the writers about
it and saying, I just think that if we're going
to give her these lines, let's let's make their relationship
something more. Because up until that point we've had scenes
together before she was on a nine, but they were
generally just you coming in and saying a couple of

(03:57):
lines and then moving on again. So it was it
wasn't wonderful. I remember that scene. It was a wonderful
scene where you came in and gave her a breakfast
in bed, and I think that was the first one
we did where for that character was really fleshed out. Yeah,
and it was huge for that relationship, but also for
me as an actor, and it's you know, I've been
thinking about it, and it's one of those things as
an actor that once in a while you work with

(04:17):
someone and they kind of maybe see you in a
different way, or see a potential for the work that
you're doing, and they give a lit a little bit
of room, give it some breathing space, or an invitation
to to work a little deeper, and then it can
change your trajectory. So you've been a very meaningful figure
to me in my life, not just not just you know,
as a wonderful friend, but you know, really changed the

(04:39):
pirst of my work. So thank you. Well, I'm happy
about that, but I'm I'm even more happy about the
friendship that developed out of that because you've been a
wonderful dear friend, and I always love to see you
and it's been a while. It's been a while since
we've gotten to hang out with you as well. Jess.
I just I miss everybody. As I was watching this,

(05:01):
I was like, oh my god, this was two thousand
nine time ago. It was so long ago, and you
had so many moments for a lot of us on
the show, not just doing your episodes, but like the
relationship with the Rood and Blair, which became not just
something for both Layton and Susannah, but the fans of
the show, um and all of us who got to
be a part of each like working with each other

(05:23):
more and more because you you opened that door. But
you also did my first episode, which opened my eyes
to this whole new world of television for the first
time really for me, and on a new show that
was you know, had all this buzz around it, So
you were you played a very important part on to
so many of us, especially Josh and Stephanie. That's why
I think they had so much trust in you, and

(05:44):
I wanted you to always come back to do stuff
because of the way your vision was for the show
and how much you cared, and what you put into
it felt like kind of like you were one of
the creators in a way that you had such a
special I mean with that far, but yeah, I do

(06:05):
appreciate that. You know, it was a very happy, important
time in my life, and I really look back on
it with such affection and I have such great memories
of all of it. I have great memories of being
in New York three or four months a year working
on the show and just building the relationships with the
cast that I did. Since I've seen you, Jess, I

(06:29):
I think it's been since I've seen you I had
lunch with Layton, and you know, that friendship has stayed
really strong. I just I just I look back on
that period of time with so with so much affection
and and and watching the show now it's like it's
it's like, wow, this was this was pretty racy and
for you know, teenagers, you know, Like I'm watching and

(06:51):
I'm thinking, like, these are supposed to be high school kids,
but particularly in this episode where they all end up
at a bar and yeah, it is like drinks on me,
and I'm like, yeah, they're all in high school, aren't they?
But right, and they kept it's almost like they're the
last patrons in the bar, and so the oakrams like cool,

(07:14):
like two am, two am, like Last Call Norman. How
many episodes did you do total? Do you know? I
did twelve? I think I did twelve over the six seasons.
I did three the first two, did three each of
the first two seasons, and then they were kind of
spaced out after that. I think I did two in

(07:37):
season three, and then I can't remember exactly how at all,
but I do remember doing three the first two seasons,
and then, yeah, I think I did twelve total, So
it was a lot. I think. I think the only
one that did more than me was was Mark bis Narski.
I think he did more than me, But I think
I did more than anybody else after that. And yeah,

(07:58):
I loved working on the show. I was. I'm really
happy to have been a part of that team and
and uh it meant a great deal to me that
they kept me employed, but also just a part of it,
to be part of a team effort from beginning to end.
You know, I've enjoyed that when I work on shows
from the very beginning until the very end, there's something

(08:20):
very wonderful about that, not that I always at the
very very beginning, but close to the beginning. Yeah, Just
and I were talking last last time we were together
about sort of the role of the director on a
long running series, the fact that you kind of come
in and then and then you're not there for a while,
then you come back and again, and how how one
kind of keeps the continuity thread and also the style

(08:43):
of the show. How is it a dialogue that's between
the directors as they come in and the showrunners? How
does that work? How do you kind of carry the tterally?
What I'm gonna ask, Yeah, because we had this, this
was a topic of our discussion last episode we were watching. Yeah.
For for me as a visiting direct her, it's very
important that I know how the show is shot and

(09:06):
what the style of it is. And certainly when I
first worked on the show, I had lots of conversations
with Josh and Stephanie about what they were looking for,
and uh, I studied the episodes and and I always
kept up with the show because I worked on it
so much that I watched every episode. Even during those
months when I wasn't working on it, I would I

(09:27):
would watch the show so that I was up to
date and that I would know what what was expected
by the time I got to my episodes. I think
it's problematic when a visiting director does not do that.
And I don't believe that all of them did, you know.
I believe that there were some who just who just

(09:47):
came in and and and shot it without a real
eye to what worked about the show and what didn't
work about the show. I I really worked very closely
with the with the DPS, and with the production designer.
But but most of all, you know, my relationship with
Justin definitely goes way back, goes way back to the

(10:08):
o C. And I just I know what they're looking for.
I was in constant contact with them during that period
of time, so I would come in and have a
fair idea of what was working and what wasn't working
and the way that the show was shot right, because
we Yeah, what we were saying is it's if you

(10:28):
don't like everyone has their own way of directing or
the way they go about it. But when you're coming
on a show, especially how much is going on with
each of these storylines and characters, And I mean, if
someone isn't dying in one episode and having a baby
in the next and going through divorces and all these things,
and there's like episodes. I'm like, this is could be
a whole season now of a ten episode show. And

(10:49):
then exactly they were in high school. That's the part
that this is like amazing to me, is like, wow,
New York high schools are worst oficated in my high school? Yeah,
it's insane. Well, and in this episode two, because it's
do you have you done finales before? Yeah? I did

(11:12):
the finale of the first season. Okay, yeah, that's true.
That's right, the first season. This is second I'm forgetting
because we did the rewatch of Actually I actually did
the There was kind of a mid season finale in
season one because of the writers strike, and did we
know that was going to be that, Well, we kind

(11:33):
of knew that there was going to be a little
bit of there was going to be a little bit
of a break between that and the rest of the season,
So I did that. I can't remember what that episode
was called. It was something something something between Chuck and Nate,
the fine line between Check and Nate or something like that.
But there was an aspect of that. There was really

(11:56):
at the time that I remember the the writers strike happened,
and they told me, they said, here's the script, you
get it at midnight and here we go. And and
I even felt like there was a piece missing in
that script, so I kind of made up something on
the fly to to fill out the third act because
it felt like it needed a little bit more. So,

(12:17):
so I did that and they were very happy with
that episode. And so they asked me to do the
finale on the first season and then um season two,
I did the the Goodbye Gossip Girl. Yeah, the Goodbye
Gossip Girl was a finale, and I did two other
episodes earlier in this season, which, by the way, I
saw you guys invited me back to talk about the

(12:38):
Age of Dissonance, which is actually one of my favorite
episodes of the whole series. And I'm so sorry I
didn't see the email. I just have so many emails
on my phone, like I think that I have. I
have a hundred, a hundred and nineteen thousand unread emails,
you know, So I just missed it. But I'm thrilled
to be back here again. Speaking of that, Norman, are

(13:00):
you are you working on a show right now? Yes,
I'm uh We're just finishing the third season of the show.
I'm the producer director on Sweet Magnolias for Netflix. But
you know who's on that Joanna Garcia Swisher, who was
on gossip Girl. Yeah, and she said to be sure
and tell you hello, tell her I love her. Caroline Lauderfelt. Yeah, Carolin, yes, yes,

(13:21):
which I remember. Um. I had worked with Joanna before
before Gossip Girl, but I had not worked with Carolin Lagerfelt,
but I liked her very much in the show, and
we were looking for the part of join this character's mother.
I just said, there's this wonderful actress in New York,
Carolin lagerfelto, I think it's really right for this part.

(13:42):
And so yes that that that all came out of
gossip Girl. Yeah, that's crazy, that's awesome. No. And I
also think, if I'm not mistaken, if I remember this right,
Joanna met her husband, Nick Swisher, during a period of
time that she was working on Gossip Girl. Yeah, so
there's a lot of connections there. And he's awesome, they're lovely. Yes,

(14:06):
he's a wonderful guy and he's so very lucky. I'm
very very much so, and I'm very lucky to be
counted amongst their friends because I I really do enjoy
both of them so very much. But anyway, I just
spoke to her before I came to do this podcast,
and she said, be sure to give you her love,
so love from Joe Mine right back. She's She's so great.

(14:27):
Sometimes it's so cool with a small world, it is,
it really is. I mean, how many. That's kind of
a great part of being, you know, in the arts,
is that everything everybody kind of ends up knowing each other,
which is cool. Yeah, and we Susanna and I just
went and did like a convention down in South Carolina
and Chase and Edward there so it was like a
little reunion and Aaron and so the five of us
got to like we hadn't been in the same room

(14:48):
together in years, all of us might have seen each
other separately, and then that's kind of how we decided,
I'm like, you need to come on the podcast. So
she came on, and we're having so much fun. So
we're kind of doing it together now. So it's just
been so great. Again because of Gossip Girl and um,
you know, an appearance thing, we reconnected in another way
and the fact that still has like a life out
there in the world, you know. So yeah, Okay, So

(15:12):
we're rewatching season two episode The Goodbye Gossip Girl, which
is based on the nineteen seventy seven movie The Goodbye
Girl starring Marsha Mason and Richard Dreyfus. Wow, okay, so
this is this season finale. Everybody like, what what? I
can't believe we're here already, Azazona, can you know? It's

(15:32):
just it's amazing and it's like the culmination of so
many storylines. All well, you're in one spot. Oh my goodness.
So this is so gossip Girl. Here's what we left off.
Serena what Serena wound up in jail trying to expose
Gabriel and Poppy's plan. Blaren Nate one prom King and
Queen before calling it quits, and Lily flashed back to

(15:55):
her past to gain perspective on her relationship with CC. Okay,
I mean, how about your your You win prom King
and Queen and then you call it quits while you're dan, Yes,
just hold me for one last song and then it's
we're done. So so in this upcoming episode, we have

(16:15):
basically what we're looking at here is that gossip Girl
decides to liven things up at graduation by sending out
a shocking and damaging email blast, causing Serena to come
up with a plan of attack. And meanwhile, Lillian Rufus
reconcile and decided to take a big step, Chuck decides
to make a revelation, and Nate plans to spend his
summer rebelling against his family. So we have a a

(16:37):
lot of the season in this finale and then four
more seasons to go. I wanted to ask you, Norman,
because this is the finale of season two. Is when

(16:59):
you're going into doing a finale because you do have
to wrap it up, even if the script's already written.
Is it a different way? Is there different tone? Is
it it? Does it feel like a different episode? Like
because it is the finale and it is wrapping up
and a lot of times I don't remember. Maybe you
guys can help me. Did we know we were getting
picked up for a season three? I mean, I we

(17:20):
know that we knew the show was popular. I know
you signed six year deals, but I don't know that
we officially knew. I think you know what I mean.
It feels it feels to me like we already knew
at this point, I feel pretty much, because I don't
remember there being any anxiety about whether or not we'd

(17:42):
be seeing each other again. Okay, so maybe it's like
halfway through the season or something, because there's so many
episodes now that I don't remind me now, it's not
that way, I don't. I don't remember, but I do
remember that I felt pretty confident that I would see
everybody again and in the summertime this You know what
was funny about this episode. I was watching it just

(18:04):
before I came up with you guys. I watched it again,
and what I remember most about this episode is that
we shot it in March, and it was supposed to
be June. And the script had all these scenes and
Central Park, all of that stuff with the with the girls,

(18:24):
the minions and Jenny becoming queen and all of that
that was originally scripted to be out in Central Park.
And I remember calling the writers on the West Coast
and saying, guys, you do know it's still winter here. Yeah,
I said, it's not in any way going to pass

(18:46):
this summer out in Central Park. And even to the
point where I don't know if you remember this jest.
But there was that scene in the courtyard of the
school where it's after graduation and everybody's congratulating everybody. There
were there were actually leaves pasted on the trees, on
some of those trees, because you know what, there was

(19:06):
just a bunch of dead trees. And if you look,
if you look closely, particularly there's this one shot of Chase,
if you look at the tree behind them, they're all
artificial leaves. They hung them there just to kind of
make you feel like. I did not remember until you

(19:27):
just told me that. And that's why I love doing these,
because yes, and it was it was cold. There was
no leaves. It was very cold. And I do remember
talking to you, Jess, while we were shooting that scene.
I remember talking to you you saying, isn't this ridiculous. I mean,
they have like the paste that leaves up there pass
for summer. But God bless the art department because they

(19:50):
originally wanted to start out in Central Park. And that
whole last sequence with Chuck and Blair out in front
of the Plaza Hotel. If you look in the background,
people are wearing winter oats. They have scarfs around their neck,
you know, that all the background extras are dressed for winter,
and it was it was still winner. I was I
was gonna ask you Norman about that scene because I

(20:11):
feel like in this episode you have the two classic
Gossip Girls set ups, which are like big New York
City locations where a lot of tourists flocked, like the Plaza,
and you had a lot of party scenes like the
two things I think that pop up in the show
more than in any other show. Is that How did
you tackle that as a director? Is that like it?
You know? Is that the overwhelming part of working in

(20:32):
this world? Because there was a ton in this episode. Yeah,
It's like every scene was. I felt like it was
like a group, huge party scene, the graduation party. I mean,
I think they often wrote party scenes for me. I
felt like times because I've done that on the O
C as well. I was very good at being able

(20:53):
to manage those party scenes because I had formerly been
an editor and I knew how to get what you
need in order to make it work and to do
it efficiently. This is another funny story I remember about
that the party where everybody is confronting each other when
there's the Gossip Girl blast and Gossip girl basically like

(21:16):
out everybody is that when it was part Yes, we
were running behind, and I remember at a certain point,
you know, it was all it was, you know, six
people facing six people basically, and I had all of
you just kind of rotate eighty degrees. That was just like, everybody,
just rotate, just rotate around in the circle degrees. I'll

(21:37):
just keep gunning in the same direction because that was
the only way to make our day that day. Because
if we turn around and we lit, we lit the
other side of the room. You do remember that, because
I remember all of you were kind of confused. You
all looked at me like, dude, this feels really weird.
I was like, yeah, don't worry about It's gonna look fine. Yes, no,
I do, because no one else had ever really done that,

(21:58):
but also had you not. And it also looked great
like when I watched it yesterday, because no other trying
to get all the shots what we have got every
angle and everyone's coverage. But I thought it becauever yeah,
because it was something different than the same circle, you
know what I mean. Well, I just remember looking around

(22:19):
the room and thinking, the backgrounds here are so nebulous.
Nobody will know the difference. I'll just rotate everybody around,
We'll turn off a couple of lights and it will work. Yeah. Well,
and two with the background, they always had all the
costumes look so on pointant things, so you could have
used it anyway, you know what I mean. They were
always fit right in obviously right. Yeah. I love that

(22:40):
party scene. I remember at the time I wanted to
do that. I can't remember. I was trying. I was
looking for the script through my emails to see if
I could find the script through my one, but I
I couldn't find it. But I wanted to see what
it's said, because I do remember I loved working with

(23:00):
Yan who played Nelly Yuki and and and I asked her,
I said, hey, I want to I think it may
have made set some indication in the script that she
was drunk, and so I thought, okay, well, I want
to see her kind of dance through this party and
kind of take us around to the various people at
the party. And I'm very proud of that scene. I
think that scene is pretty wonderful because it's one big

(23:22):
steadicam shot. I did it on a wider lens and
then a tighter lens and there's one cut in it,
but she goes all the way around the room and
then comes back again to the entrance of Dan and
Vanessa and ends up talking to her there. And I
think that shot is pretty wonderful. I look at it
and I'm very proud of it. This shot was great

(23:44):
and she she did such a good job because it
was that kind of like happy drunk, she gonna tell
me and she loves him, is she not? Vanessa is
all like, I'm so glad we came, like, let's go.
Vanessa can't be bothered with any of these people. Vanessa
had My favorite line of that scene, like the my
favorite Vanessa line so far and the whole series was
that when the gospel blast comes out and everybody gets

(24:06):
out it and then somebody's saying something nasty about her
and she says, I'm right here and like right here,
And it was so great because I feel like it
really encapsulated a lot of that relationship with the whole
group into that whole universe really, So that was yeah, yeah, well,
and I thought the cool thing to it this this
episode of Navigating was and at the time, obviously no

(24:28):
one knew who Gossip girl was and they were doing
all these you know, the four of them sitting on
the stairs, Nate, Serena, Blair, and Chuck and they're like
trying to figure it out at the party, and then
they're going to put out the blast and see who
it is, who it was, and then we think it's
Eric's boyfriend. At the time, like there was just so
much going on, But it was so great because as
I felt like now watching it, if I watched it

(24:49):
back then, when I'm really trying to figure out who
it is, I was really thinking we were going to
come to the bottom of it, whether there was more
seasons or not, because everyone was graduating and starting their
new chapter. So when we didn't find out, but then
they were a little like drops with Dan, like even
the blast where it says he was the insider, Nate
was the horror, Chuck was the coward. Like I'm like, oh,

(25:12):
they're kind of dropping things. And then even when Dan
is the first one to walk in with Serena and
Nate and they was like Dan's gossip girl, and I'm like,
but you they did such a good job, and you
did Norman, and just the whole thing was done so
well that it kept you now knowing I'm like, oh
my gosh, they dropped it so many times that Dan

(25:33):
was gossip Girl, and still everyone was shocked five seasons later,
you know what I mean. I think that there was
certainly the intent to make people feel like at the
end of season two that they were going to find out.
You know, I remember that being something that that shot
on the staircase where the four of them were sitting
on the stairs, that's the shot I stole from All

(25:55):
About Eve because All About It Even is one of
my favorite movies, and I love that stairway shot at
the party where they're all sitting on the stairs talking.
And so I remember when we were shooting and I thought,
we never really used the staircase here in the kind. Yeah,
so I I just thought, why don't we use it

(26:15):
here for this? I did remember that as I was
watching it again that that I remember pulling up the
shot from All About Even showing it to John or DP.
But there's like another sort of fun fact in this
episode of fun back behind the scenes thing is that
print out that I guess Jonathan when we think Jonathan's
gossipel for a minute, turns out he's just like a

(26:37):
computer whiz, and he has a print out of all
Gossip Girls juicy stuff is that we can see. I
guess if one were two pause the episode, one could
read all of the secrets. And apparently on that list
there are some secrets revealed that we don't otherwise know about.
And one of them is that Deronda is an illegal immigrant.

(26:58):
Oh my god. And then and then also the back
that like all uh and I think they did this
all the time. Which is just so fun for the
cast and crew is that every time they had something
like that, it was like all the names were like
the crew and the writers and so it's like those
for the you know that inside stuff in there, yeah yeah, yeah,
which was fun too. But forgi Roda almost got got

(27:20):
in trouble there just by the skin of her teeth
and having to do those like print outs. It's funny
because it just also the time, like that's how it
would have to be, because there was no we weren't
having we weren't able to have thousands of emails and
our things. People. I don't even think emails went to
those phones, right, you know what I mean? And that

(27:41):
boy who played the boy who was the computer Whiz.
I was kind of like, who is this character? I
don't even remember you, you know, like he kind of yeah,
so he just wanted Tony. He's amazing. He played Eric's boyfriend, right, Yeah. Yeah.
Well it's just it's just so funny because you know,
there were characters that I was kind of like, I
don't even remember this, and then you know, you see

(28:02):
these uh I do. I did have a real uh
moment of deep nostalgia because jan Maxwell played I had
mistress Queler in this episode and she's since passed away,
and she was a wonderful Broadway actress that that I
liked her. I admired her work very very much, and

(28:22):
I was very excited to get to work with her
on this episode and the prior when I did this
season Age of Dissonance, I worked with her on that
one as well, and she was just a wonderful, wonderful
person to work with, and so I just wanted to
give her a shout out because she since passed away.
Lovely actress lovely and she too, like it was the

(28:44):
scenes whenever we would have to go into her office,
it was always something like, you know, the whole Yale
battle with Serena and Blair. There was always like big
things of like, Okay, they're gonna get in trouble, are
they Is she going to help them out or not?
And she she played I thought that really well. And
and fun fact is the last name is off of
a writer of ours. Isn't that how they came up

(29:05):
with her name? Yes, Jessica, Yes, huh. And Jessica Queler
is still a very dear friend of mine. And Jessica
actually wrote my two favorite of the episodes I directed.
She wrote The Handmaidens Tell, which was your first episode,
jess and and then she and then she also wrote

(29:25):
the Age of Dissonance, which was my other. Really that
those two episodes. I have a great affection for really
really good ones. And when it's funny when you say that,
because when I go back now watching the whole this
whole season, really for the first time, certain episodes stick
out to me, and those are two of them for
sure that are just for me, that that they presented

(29:47):
opportunities and challenges and uh, for me, they really captured
the spirit of the show because I've always thought the
show is it's kind of I think I even talked
about on the last time I was here updated Edith Wharton,
you know, kind of a ironic view of Edith Wharton
of narratives. Yeah, can I ask you about the scene

(30:10):
the scene with Lara and Jenny. I feel like it
was like a bathroom, but it also looked super beautiful
there by themselves. You can hear music in the background.
It's darkly lit but beautifully lit. Um And it's kind
of the moment where Blair is talking about her becoming queen.
And I feel like this is a big moment in
the series of everything because the Queen bee is, you know,

(30:31):
such a staple part of the show of who runs it,
who's a part of it. It was this tug of
war back and forth for the first two seasons. Um.
So I feel like there's a moment in which you're
you're a little bit like, wait, you don't really want
Blair to not be it anymore, but you know, you graduate,
you move on. Just because of also the way Layton
played Blair the comedy. She still like walks into those

(30:52):
scenes with the with the minions and like pigs control
of like she's like it's I still decide this, Like
I don't, guys aren't deciding this it's me. But I
thought that was a really beautiful scene, just because you
really feel the warmth and the love in Layton in
Blair about what it is to be that like you
can't get everyone to love you, but you can make

(31:14):
people be scared of you. I mean, it's a odd
odd but like it's a big moment for gossip Grum,
for Blair and the fact that she's gonna end up
handing it to Jenny. How was that scene? Do you remember?
I don't know, so long ago. Yes, I do remember.
We shot it in a bathroom in the bottom of
the Plaza hotel. I remember exactly where we were. I

(31:35):
also remember I like the idea of using the mirrors
because I feel like there was the persona and then
who people really are, and it was like I always
like to play with mirrors in that way of you
know that people are two things at once. And and
for me, the trick with these shows because of course,

(31:58):
at a certain level, it's all kill us. You know,
high school students hanging out the oak room and high
school students and yeah, who's gonna be queen and stuff.
But what I always say on these shows when when
whenever I work on these shows, because I've worked on
shows like Gossip Girl and Pretty Little Liars, for the

(32:21):
plots are absolutely absurd. You know, there's teenagers taking over
corporate boardrooms and stuff. And but what I always said,
what I always say is that the emotions are real.
And what for me is the most important thing and
for me as a director when I'm working with with
anyone on one of these kinds of shows, is the plot.

(32:45):
Forget about the plot. Focus on the emotions. The emotions
are real, whatever, whatever the emotional sex are of the scene,
play the reality of that. And I can't remember the
specific conversations I had with Um, with Taylor or Lay,
but I do remember having frequent conversations with people over

(33:07):
the span of the shows, the very shows that have done.
Or I just say, forget about forget about the plot,
forget about it. Play play the emotions. Just play. You
have emotional steaks, you want something in this scene, you
need something in this scene. You're revealing something of yourself
in this scene. Play that, don't because otherwise you play

(33:30):
it with tongue in cheek and its glib and you
and you feel the artifice of it. And one of
the things that I think the show is successful about
because everyone did commit so highly to the reality of
it is. You do feel very emotionally invested in these
in these moments that quite frankly, on the on the surface,

(33:51):
they're absurd and and I feel like that if you,
if you really um analyze what makes the show work,
it's the fact that everybody was committed to playing the
reality of the emotions in the scenes and not like
her being there with Jenny and actually telling her like, yes,
take away that it is a crown and this and that,

(34:13):
like we're talking and I'm an older you know, I'm graduating,
but I I know that you can take this on
because I you know, I watched you like in that Yeah,
and it was kind of like a big sister talking
to a little sister that's graduating and saying, you know,
stay in there, hanging there. It's like passing the torch
the torch and cat passing down expertise. Like this whole

(34:34):
episode seems like it's about the sort of emotional transitional time,
which is like so to me, it's real heartstring pulling
the whole thing, because this idea of putting an entire
chapter of your life to bed and then moving on
and everything will change, and then we have really emotional
storylines between Lily and Rufus in this episode and between

(34:55):
Remember I'm sorry to go off on a tangent here,
but kell Alla Rutherford was extremely pregnant during this so
will notice that, Well you will notice that she is
always sitting or she's always carrying grocery bags and be like,

(35:15):
I'm I'm shooting her over a sofa or she's sitting
down because she was extremely pregnant in and I remember
like just having to hide that. Well we well we
shot it. We did a great job of that. Yeah. Yeah,
they played an entire proposal. We never saw her midsection. Yeah,

(35:36):
but what's really crazy thinking about that, like to read
a script, break it down, get all your shots, make
sure the actors are emotionally available and giving notes, to
make sure we're getting what we need from the scenes,
and then to just throw in there like, oh, someone's pregnant,
so we have to have certain shots like that's like
and it's beautiful. She came to set every day so graceful.

(35:57):
You would have never known she was. She never complained
when I was around. She always had a smile on
her face. She would it didn't affect her acting whatsoever.
That's still being said. You have to completely have different
shots than you would if someone wasn't. So for a
director to take that on and do all of those things,
I'd love how just so calm you are like, oh, yeah,
she was just pregnant. Like that's a whole another it's

(36:18):
like problem solving, right, Yeah, it's another piece to take over,
and you have to have someone Yeah, and you have
to have someone who can do it with a smile
on their face because you're running the ship for for
everyone when you're doing the episode, when you're directing. So
the way you can handle that and take all those
things on, I mean there was days I remember I
don't know if it was this episode, but there'd be

(36:40):
like we we we only have an hour, and it'd
be like ten people in a scene. I'm like, I
don't even possible. It's like impossible, basically, and Norman somehow
would figure it out, whether it was shifting a hunter
Nati or hey, let's say the lines this way. But
then when you go back and watch it, we never
lost the integrity of the scene or even the beauty
of the scene, or what the emotions were that we
needed to bring. So for you to be able to

(37:02):
do those types of things is like, I mean that
you're like a legend, because that's not you know, people
walk on thinking I have my shots, and these actors
are season two so they know what they're doing, but
we still need I still like when you I get
notes from you because I know that you are looking
at it, maybe a different way than I am after
reading the script ten times or two times or whatever,
you know, so I like getting the notes. So having

(37:24):
you take all that on and still have we have
an hour, or she's pregnant, or this person has a
coffee cacome out of their trailer, like you still just
went through it like no big deal. So hats off
to you for that. I have a couple of questions.

(37:48):
I wanted to ask you about your directing style, Norman,
because it's like you talked about how you were an
editor before you were a director, So this sort of
economy of shooting is it? Um. I understand that you
kind of see what shots are necessary, Like you said,
you know what you need, so you're able to be
more concise and sort of how you're how you're attacking
a scene. But I wonder does it change the way

(38:08):
that you relate to the editors in the editing room.
Is there some kind of what does that feel like
to you now being from the director side, Well, I
think that. I think on the o C the editors
were really tired of me because I was so controlling,
you know. I was like, no, it's right here, it's
this guy, it's right on this Uh, it's right on

(38:28):
this frame. I think by the time I got to
Gossip Girl, I was a little more open to their collaboration.
I always give an editor choices. I never try to
do it so close to the vest that they don't
have choices. Because also on a on any kind of
show that's on commercial television, you have to hit a

(38:50):
certain time. It's it's very crucial. That would be exactly second. Yes,
as long as long as it it's whatever it is.
But so you have to give an editor options. But
I do shoot in such a way that I'm building
it in my mind, and that's very evident, I think

(39:11):
to most of the editors that work for me, because
it's like, oh, he intends it to be cut this way.
But the trick for me as a director has always
been not because you know, at the end of the day,
and I say this with all love for actors, I
don't really care what the actor's experiences as long as

(39:33):
I can get the pieces I need to put together
to make the episode work. And so oftentimes I will
have an actor say, well, you know, I need another
take because I never got one that worked all the
way through, and I'm like, yeah, I wish that you
could have had that experience, but I have to move
on now, you know, because I've got the pieces that
I need. Because ultimately, in any type of film work,

(39:56):
as opposed to theater, you're only looking for pieces. You're
only looking for little pieces of film that you can
put together in such a way to create a cohesive whole.
And no one take is ever going to play unless
you're doing a winner. And I never do winners because
I don't like that lack of flexibility in the editing room.

(40:18):
So it's it's almost like I have had to learn
how to reassure actors that they can trust me that
I'm getting what I need, but I'm not interested in
whether or not they have a feeling of the performance
from beginning to end, and that has sometimes created some

(40:39):
conflict because I've had some actors saying I need another one,
I need another one. I'm like, no, you don't, you
don't need another one. If I have the time, if
I'm ahead of schedule, then I'll give it to them.
But I don't, as a rule, surrender that if I
feel like I've got all the pieces that I need,
because I'm looking at it with a really fine eye
as too. Okay, I need this moment, I need this moment.

(41:02):
I got this moment. I got this moment. I got
this moment. And I think that actors, after they work
with me a little while, they know they can relax
because I've got their back. Right. Yeah, I felt that
for sure because I remember times Norman, I would come
up to you and I would say that, do you
think I need another one? You Nope, got it? And
I trusted trusted you. So it was, you know, gender

(41:22):
trust and an actor I was gonna ask about. In
this episode, there's quite an emotional scene between Chuck and
Blair when she comes and says that she loves him,
and he's not able to respond. So it's like in
the previous episode he he basically said he loves her.
She finds out about that in this episode, she decides
to go for it. She tells him I love you,
and he at this point and knows that she slept

(41:45):
with his brother and all this stuff and um uncle,
right whatever it is, but you know, so then he
doesn't say it back, and so there's this I was
trying to remember, like, yeah, I think it's yeah, Jack,
it was Jack Bass Bart's brother, Jack Bass Yeah. So
he's like he can't uh now, she says I love
you and he's not saying it back, and he leaves

(42:05):
her so devastated. And it was one of those tremendous
moments of Laton Measter's acting where she if she's left
with like a single tear down her cheek, and it's
just she would always get there emotionally. Every time I
saw her do that kind of work. It was always
really inspirational to me and to watch her do that.
But I was going to ask you in terms of
like like you're saying now, and like Jess was saying,
you know, the notes that you would give would be

(42:27):
really helpful, you know, but you have to ride that
line between getting what the show needs and sort of
you know, bowing to the actor's experience. But how do
you work with actors in those kind of emotional scenes,
especially when you have a lot of coverage and a
lot of takes, and uh, do you have a particular
experience and well, well, those two were very easy to

(42:48):
work with. Those two were remarkable together. I remember being
able to give them five different marks in the scene
and say they would they do it? They do it? Yeah.
And particularly my relationship with her, I really bonded with
her right away, like she and I just it was

(43:11):
we just we just took to each other. And as
I said, we've we've remained very close friends over these years.
And I don't remember the specifics of that scene, but
I know that it was a scene in which she
felt somewhat vulnerable. I mean the whole you know, the
whole kind of striptease that she does for I mean,

(43:31):
that's the part that I was like, oh, wow, this
was a lot racier than I remember. You know, I didn't,
I did, I didn't really remember that being that. Yeah,
but but I think that that was a scene that
she was feeling, as you know, Look, it's been how
many years now, it's been thirteen years, so I can't
say for sure, but it seems to me that, you know,

(43:53):
I remember it being a scene where she was feeling
fair fairly vulnerable, and you know, it was a very private,
close set, and she was primed and ready to do it.
I don't remember giving any particular notes, but I did
feel like that both of them trusted me a lot
and and we had a very easy rapport. But I

(44:14):
do remember that scene, just the mechanics of it being
something that I just wanted to make sure that she
felt completely comfortable with. And I don't what I just
said a few minutes ago, I don't mean it to
sound like I don't care about what actors are feeling.
I absolutely didn't take it at all. Yeah, I just

(44:35):
I just, well, it's that tremendous trap of being an
actor in which it's like we think we're the best
judges of our own work, which is in fact totally opposite.
So we you know, we can't see ourselves working and
we shouldn't, and so we have to be able to trust.
That's why it's a collaborative medium. And so I think
that you know, it's getting there in a gentle way.
Absolutely Well. I've had that conversation with a couple of

(44:56):
actors in the recent past where I've had to just say,
you have to let me be the judge. You need
to be paying attention to the other person in the scene.
If you're worried about how you're performing, then you're up
in your head about it. You're watching yourself. And whatever
I can do to make an actor feel safe so

(45:16):
that they're not watching themselves if they're if they're not
if they're not watching themselves, but actually having the experience
with the other person. And you know, I'm sure both
of you have been in scenes before with people where
you feel like, oh, this person practice that move five
times in the maryor last night. You know, I mean,
I know you you know what I'm talking about. When
they're you know, they've got it all worked out. I

(45:39):
try to discombobulate those actors who do that, to get
them out of their head a little bit. You know.
I'll come in sometimes and just say, I want you
to really listen to the other person who wants you
to really listen, because what I see is you calculating
your next move. I see you calculating your next line,
as opposed to just being in the scene and trusting

(46:01):
me to watch, trusting me to be the survicuit for
the audience. I think that oftentimes actors are not really
clear about what their best work is. You know, sometimes
they'll think, oh, I had the experience on this line.
But it's a very It's a completely different medium than
than a theater where you are trying to follow one

(46:21):
emotional line. You know, you're you're doing segmented pieces, and
it's very hard. And those scenes like the scene that
late in hand where she had to cry and I
mean she didn't even have to cry. That was one
way to play it, but you know, those tears came naturally.
What you want to do as a directors create a
space around the actor where they feel safe enough to

(46:44):
have whatever internal experience they need to have. So what
I'm always looking for is actress who show up prepared,
know their lines, have made some solid choices about what
they think the scene is about, but then open themselves
up to whatever is happening in the moment. And those
two and both of you as well, were very much

(47:04):
those kinds of actors, and so that made it a
real joy because you were able just to kind of
experiment and play really to see what happened. You know,
there wasn't that sense of getting outside and watching them, like,
you know, there was nothing about that scene between Lateton
and ad They felt like that they were watching themselves.
You know, they were both very very vulnerable in it,

(47:25):
and it was a lovely scene. I thought there was
another scene in the episode, which is the scene with
Vanessa and Nate and early in the episode where they're
outside of the school and the graduation sequence and they're
sort of reconnecting and you have all that history that
happened between them, and I thought that was a tremendous
example of this too um where it's like just your

(47:47):
and and Chase were like listening to each other so
much because there was so much subtext and so much
just emotional life between them even between the lines. Do
you remember shooting that scene? Just yes, And because I
remember reading the script and thinking like, wait, oh my god,
he's going to go back on the trip with her,
Like I thought they were like they were not going

(48:07):
backpacking in Europe together anymore. After you know, he went
and was dating Blair, and even though Vanessa wasn't holding
it against him, I just didn't. When I read the script,
I'm like, oh wow, wild. And then also the whole
thing with it being Scott. When I tried to say,
I'm bringing someone else with me, and the character Scott
is introduced, who is the love child of Rufus and Lily,
so this is really Dan's half brother, which was also

(48:29):
like then then I had another shocking moment where I'm like, Okay,
I don't even care if Nate's going with you or not.
That's Scott, Like this is the kid that likes Yes, yeah,
but it has well. But that's not the senior talking.
I was talking about the earlier one, but I think
they're both similar because it's like part of what happens,
like like Norman was saying about the the plot of

(48:49):
the show is not as important as the emotional life,
and it's like the part of that is the kind
of the chemistry between the characters and that kind of
feeling that we get of like rooting for these people
like Magnets to come together. And I feel like that's
what the listening was between Nate and Vanessa. You know
you have that chemical life you know at play. Yeah,
And I think when he apologized, I think that was

(49:11):
a big thing for Vanessa, right, like thank you, Like
I didn't like she needed that because it kind of
happened fast and everyone moved on from it. And I
think she Vanessa really had deep feelings for Nate, and
I think the more and more they were dating and
hanging out, she was really seeing another side to him
that she maybe I don't want to say judge, but
maybe thought of in a different way because he was,

(49:32):
you know, friends with these kids on the Upper East Side.
Vanessa is very different from them and looks at life
very differently than than a lot of them. So I
think when she was hanging out with him and then
that kind of ended in a way. And to know
other than Blair, who Vanessa and Blair don't see eye
to eye on many things, and you know, there's a
lot of tension with those two. So I do think
the emotion there for Vanessa, or when maybe I was

(49:55):
doing the scene, is that like she really was waiting
for that apology and finally got it. Yes, it's a
little bit of a loose end tied up, but then
also like a new one opens up because here they're
going off backpacking, like you know it has Yeah, but
it's also to like what Norman was saying, this very
simple thing instead of being like I need to be
here at this moment and say this on this line

(50:15):
or feel this or move here. Really in that scene
was what I needed from Nate was an apology, and
even though I didn't know I was getting it, it
was still just being able to really feel how that
how what Vanessa needed in that moment. So again it
was just if you Sometimes it's like what we've said before, Susana,
sometimes less is more, and instead of trying to do
all these things, it's just really breaking down, what's my

(50:37):
objective here? What do I need right now? You know
what I mean? So I feel like again Norman in
that scene and getting it from that other person rather
than a preconception of the scene. Yeah. Right, And and
my job is after to remind actors what is your
objective and what is that in emotional terms, because my
my whole goal is always to just pack the frame
with emotion, and that starts with casting. I think that

(51:00):
if you don't cast appropriately, that you're already asking for problems,
you know. So it's very it's very difficult to um
particularly these days. I hate the whole process of casting online.
Um I really, I really insist on callbacks, even if
there's zoom callbacks because you just don't know until you
start to have a conversation with somebody whether you're going

(51:22):
to get that trust and whether they're going to be
able to take a note. The thing about it show,
like Gossip Girl, its success is that it it resonates
with people's emotions. Like I said, it's not a show
that's about when it's got this political agenda, even if
even if there was something there, that's not what people

(51:43):
are responding to. People are responding to the emotional life
of the characters. And and to really be the voice
that is reminding the actors, yes, you need to hit
these marks, but most of all, you need to pay
attention to the person you're in the scene with and
really play the scene with them. And as I said,

(52:04):
I know you both have probably been in scenes with
people where you're like, um, this person is not interacting
with me whatsoever. And I think you know as Pearl
is a great example of the show too that because
it lasted six seasons and it was a New York
show that a lot of actors came through as guest
stars or one off even co stars who came in

(52:25):
for small things, and it's like, you know, the similar
to when I was first acting professionally. It was like
the Law and Order franchise was the same way, where
it was like you would get a job on a
show and come in and just do a little scene
here and there. And in those instances, sometimes you walk
into a scene and you're working with a partner who's
been doing a show for many seasons and they don't
want to even you know, really connect with you when

(52:47):
it's not they're close up or not their coverage, and
you know, those can be really stressful, uh environments. And
so I think what was nice about Gossip, or at
least in my experience, was that it always felt like
there was a generosity of spear it on set, so
that people were actually there was some integrity to the
scene work where people were kind of pulling their weight
and really like showing up for each other in the scenes.

(53:08):
I think that's huge and important on a long running show.
How that feeling of people wanting to be there, to
to be actors. You know, it's just like huge. It
was a wonderful environment. I remember being a wonderful environment,
and I remember everybody being extremely generous, not just with
each other, but with me and with other directors as well.

(53:31):
I found it to be a very welcoming environment. I
loved working on the show. And you know, I remember,
I think we talked about this last time. Just you know,
I used to hear gossip about the show and I
would just be like, not my experience at all. My
experience is that it's a really wonderful group of people.
The only weird thing is is all of the paparazzi

(53:52):
around it. That's the only issue, you know. I was
just thinking when we were talking about like being in
a scene and maybe working with someone where you don't
know like, oh, they really have this like mapped out

(54:14):
in their head and it may not be organic or okay.
But I was working on something once and I was
I had to walk into the scene. It wasn't Gossip Girl,
but it goes to kind of what you were saying,
and I just kind of something went off in my head.
One of the actors was in the scene and it
was going really well, and it was an emotional scene
and pretty intense things were going on, and a lot
of information that was being brought up in this moment

(54:37):
that like the other character didn't know and this character
was you know, and one of the actors totally spaced
on their line. They knew it. We had been on
different coverage all day, like they knew it and like
had rehearsed it and stopped and was like, oh my god,
I'm so sorry. And the director came over and said,
you know what you were so in the moment listening,
we know you know the line. That was one of
the best takes, the close up on you from just listening.

(54:58):
And it was funny because he said, really, who cares
that you didn't know your line? We we got it before,
but it was the fact that you were how deep
you were listening, So in the moment, I don't care
that we had to yell the line out. And then
they did get He yelled line and they yelled it
and they kept moving. But I remember, and it was
earlier on for me as an actor, so I remember

(55:19):
kind of being like, do I understand what they're saying?
Like is that okay? That you forget your line? And
it was more it's not like he didn't come prepared.
As my point, he was very prepared, but he was
so emotionally involved and taken like from what the other
actor was saying so I felt like when you were
just explaining that, Norman, I experienced something similar, like as
I was watching from the side. And it will never

(55:40):
I'll never forget that that it's not just about when
you're saying your line and doing that. And I think
some actors are so about their coverage and their thing,
you know, So I don't know, Yeah, I think it's nerve.
I I I would have a panic attack if I
were an actor, you know, I'm sure I would. I
think that there have been many times where I've worked

(56:01):
with actors who gets to their coverage and they have
real anxiety and and and I always just try to
reassure them, you know, and try to get them to
really relax and say, you know, just forget that. We're
all here, it's all good, and nobody's judging you. That's
the other reason I always emphasized that I don't need
a perfect take and need perfect pieces with intakes. So

(56:23):
so obviously it's great if somebody does know their lines
and it's ready to go. But one of the things
that I have told actors is if you forget where
you are, don't break character, don't don't suddenly go like,
oh God, I'm sorry. I'm I'm I'm sorry, you know,

(56:44):
because that that basically throws everybody out at the moment,
you know. So I say, if if you if you
lose your place, just take a breath and try to
find it and if it, if it doesn't come to you,
then I'll cut and we'll come back to it. But
don't some break character. Don't suddenly stop being the character

(57:05):
in the scene. Yes, play the scene, even if you
screw up some words or transpose some words, keep rolling along,
you know, or or take it back a line and
just come right back to it. But but not to
just drop out of character entirely, because I do find
that's very disruptive. Yeah, I always find that the it's

(57:25):
that that horrible trap when you're when when a scene
is being set up, it's like you know, either the
camera's going to be on one side or the other
to start with, So sometimes it starts on your coverage
or your close up, and then sometimes it starts on
the other person. And it's like when it starts on
the other person, you're doing all this good stuff and
then it turns around on you like I did at
like like, oh I was so good when there was

(57:45):
no pressure. You know, there's a lot of psychological traps
I think to working on camera, and it's it's nice
to have a director who is who gives you the
feeling that like, what you're doing is okay, so you
can take that breath and and you know, stay in
the moment. Well, I'm counterintuitive in terms of I always
tell actors, slow it down, have the thought that gives

(58:07):
rise to the line, and then say the line, because
a lot of actors will they'll be trying to keep
pace up and they'll go uh. Then they'll say the line. Uh.
Look and then they'll say the line, are well and
then say the line is opposed to just think about it,
say it, you know, it's it's It's a much better

(58:27):
way to work. And so it's a little counterintuitive, but
I always was going in telling people slow it down,
slow it down, have the have the beats between the lines,
separate the thoughts. You have three different thoughts in this
one block of dialogue. So I have the first thought
that gives rise to the second and then to the third.
And I think that actors are always with me. They're

(58:48):
always like, oh god, I've never had a director say
that to me before. They're always saying pick up the pace,
pick up the pace, and I and I feel like, well,
until you feel really grounded in the line, the worst
thing you can do is tell an actor to pick
up the pace, because then you'll see an actor during
their inner scanning. You'll see that rapid eye movement where
they're like, what am I supposed to say next? What

(59:10):
am I supposed to say next? And and so that
was something I learned from editing is just slow people down,
you know, slow people down and get them to really
have the thought process, and that will help them. Also,
it will alleviate the anxiety because they're not feeling like
they have to shoot it like a gun, particularly if
you're in coverage, because then you're you're setting the pace

(59:32):
in the editing room. Then you know, like, I'll cut
the lines really tight, but the but the line will
be informed by the thought. That's such a great way
to think of it. I also feel like sometimes with
people's nerves, you think, if I go faster, I get
it over with quicker, which it shouldn't be. Like. The
cool thing about what we do is be in the
moment and embrace I'm not saying it always is that easy.

(59:53):
That's why it's so lovely to work with someone like
Norman who can bring that out of you and calm
you down if you if you are a little nervous.
But I remember to working with someone and they said,
the faster you go, the longer it is for the
audience to watch, because when you're speeding up, you're you're
not taking us on a journey with you. We're just
so they're like, slow down, when you take your time,
it's it's better for the audience to watch. And I'm like,

(01:00:15):
that makes sense, but because I think in some actor's
head they're like, let me just get through it, and
I'm like, no, this is the moment where you want
to be like, this is what you work so hard
for to finally be able to do it. You know.
It's one of the reasons I never do Wonders because
I feel like, to do a one er, you really
have to rehearse it over and over and over again
get it right, or run it over and over again
to get it right, and you have to then really

(01:00:37):
be aware of the pacing and whether the pacing is
gonna work or not within the cut of a show.
And so I almost never do wonders like even when
I would do steadycams walking down the street, I would
do a steadycam on one lens, and then I would
do it on a tighter lens and just swing back
and forth between the two actors so that I would
always have cutting points and be able to to tighten

(01:00:58):
it up if I needed to. But I do believe
that the pace is set in the editing room and
on the SAT. You're basically trying to create the space
so the actors have the most authentic experience they can have,
so that the audience is moved by whatever is happening.
It's a great thing that makes sense. Yeah, And it's
like I had a friend who said, I don't know

(01:01:21):
where he got it from, but it was like that
the camera likes behavior. It likes that, like, you know,
just human breath, human behavior, human thinking, you know, whereas
on stage you have to do so much muscling to
like communicate your storytelling. And so it gives us a
little bit more room than we think we have. So
it's nice to think of it that way, that that
the editing is where that aspect of sports storytelling it's

(01:01:42):
taken care of for us. I really think that's very freeing,
that's a great lesson, or or you know what I
would do oftentimes, if I were shooting, for instance, a Master,
I would sometimes go in and say to the actors,
this part of the Master is where I think I'll
be if you can hit these lines hard and and

(01:02:02):
pick up the pace in this part. I tried not
to do that very much, but if I felt like
they were struggling in some way, then I would. I
would give those kinds of technical notes. I don't want
an actor to be thinking about what's happening technically, if
at all possible, but sometimes you have to. Sometimes you
have to go in and say, well, this is this
is what I need of this shot before I can

(01:02:24):
move on. I need for this part of the shot
to work. But in order for me to even say that,
I have to know roughly how I'm going to cut
it together. And that's something that I really do determine
in prep. How was speaking of big scenes. The graduation
scene when all the phones were popping up, I'm like,
oh God, this had to be so kind of technical
in a way because there were so many inserts of

(01:02:46):
the phones. Because everyone blast, we're popping up. You know
what I mean. And then then the gowns, I'm sure
like for wardrobe, you know what I mean, to make
sure when they cut, because those aren't fitted where it's
just like okay fit, so they you know, I was thinking,
oh my gosh, how many times they'd have to come
in and tug it to make sure they were like
straight down and graduation has where the it wasn't going

(01:03:07):
in their face like in my mind of like, this
is a very technical scene and Blake wearing just the
tassel not to happen Like I was like, you know,
I have to be honest, I have very little memory
of that scene. That's one of the scenes that just
kind of got ejected from the internal ram inside my head.

(01:03:32):
Where it was shot, you I do, I do remember
where it was shot. It was shot well, I don't
remember the specifics. It was in Brooklyn. There's a school
in Brooklyn that we were shooting him, because it really
looked like the church or the space that the Prince
Louis wedding in a later season was shot. And so
I was like, I feel like, it's funny because sometimes
you see the same place as you know, playing different roles.

(01:03:53):
I feel like it was. I feel like it was
a school. As I remember, it was a school of
some sort, but I don't remember the specifics. I do
remember the scene between Blair and her mother. I I
love that little scene and as I remember it, that
is a winner. I think I did do that as
a one or just in the mirror, the two of

(01:04:15):
them talking, and Margaret Colin was always such a wonderful
actress to work with, just fun and easy, and I
just thought that that scene had a lot of heart
to it. And again, it's weird because it's kind of like,
you know, hey, my you know, sixteen seventeen year old
child who's in high school, Go tell him that you're

(01:04:35):
in love with him. I'd be like, uh, you want
to play the field for the next twenty years of
your life. But there's such a tremendous warmth between them.
And also I feel like that's a great example that
and even the last scene with Chuck, where you know,
between Ed and Layton, it's like that the actors are
bringing so much sort of improvisational quality, not you know,

(01:04:57):
not making up lines, but the moment for some emotions. Yeah,
and like there's a beautiful kind of giggle at the
end of this scene, like Margaret who plays Eleanor does
something kind of funny with her last line and it
makes Blair laugh. And it's such an authentic little moment. Yeah,
And so to me, that's like the kind of real
moment to moment actor to actor listening that you were

(01:05:19):
talking about. It comes up really clearly in that sense. Yeah,
because I'm sure there wasn't. It probably wasn't in the script,
Like Blair laughs here, you didn't really have to do that,
And I think the writers also knew that after so
many episodes that like you didn't have to give Blair
cries or Blair does this, because she would just bring
whatever was needed in the moment of what she would

(01:05:41):
you know, how she would play her. And that's what
I think was so brilliant about Layton and Blair. But
what I was gonna say is that scene it was
interesting to me because you never there's not a lot
of moments like that with those two. So to then
go and say, go run after and tell him that, like,
she hasn't really been there emotionally for for Blair many times.

(01:06:03):
You know, it's been a lot of times where their
relationship was always kind of strange to me, but you
always cared about eleanor like, I still like her a lot,
and I think that goes to how she played her.
You know, She's there was still something I'm like, Wow,
I always really enjoy watching you, and I always kind
of went her and and Blair are in a scene.

(01:06:23):
You you want to feel that love and stuff, But
that didn't happen many times up to this point for
me watching the show for the first time, all the
way through like this, there's not many moments where she's
going to her mom for advice on love or with Serena,
you know what I mean, with her best friend. So
I thought that was a really special way to kind

(01:06:43):
of close out season two. She always was somewhat of
a mad cap, screwball comedy type of character, you know,
who came in doing wacky things, And then I did
like that scene a lot. I have another fun fact
about the very final scene between Chuck and Blair. Joss
Saffron was convinced that we shouldn't let anything leak on

(01:07:05):
social media because social media was in its Nassan stages then,
but it was very much a thing should to shoot
that scene with Chase as well. So we shot that
scene in front of the plaza. We should wait, we
shot it with Chase and we shot it with Ed,
and I remember she was just like, this is so

(01:07:26):
weird having to kissed these two different guys out here
on the street. She said, it's just so wait. So
they did that so that the paparazzi getting the photos
wouldn't know that the season finale was going to end
with Blair kissing. I remember being really irritated about it because,
you know, on any given day, to have to shoot

(01:07:48):
a scene twice knowing that one version was not going
to be used was a real pain in the ass,
you know, because I was just like, this is crazy,
because we're scrambling to get this work done. We're shooting
on one of the busiest streets in Midtown. We're right
out here in front of everybody. But they were very

(01:08:11):
worried about that information getting out, and so they made
me shoot it with Chase and the night shot with
Ed and and Lane. Lane. Lane was just like, oh boy, okay,
I guess I'll wow, because there's a lot that's a

(01:08:34):
really committed kissing sequence there at the end. It's really
there was and twe well and again like fighting time,
Like time is precious on set, so it's like you
need this, we don't need this, but we need this
that the world doesn't know. I guess I understand it
from a public relations point of view, but uh, I

(01:08:56):
was at the time. I remember being pretty irritated it
that I had to do it, you know, because I
was just so pressed for time. And I don't remember what.
I don't remember what else we were shooting that day,
but I would assume it would have been since we
were in front of the plaza, I would I would
assume we shot that and the big bar scene with everybody,
and then the scene downstairs in the bathroom between Blair

(01:09:20):
and Jenny, so because we shot that in the on
the lower floor of the plaza, and those were big
costume changeovers too for Blair. And this is what I
remember about Jen Johnson. Jen Johnson was she was She
was always so, she was so tough. Like I would
say to you know, I need I really need this
change over to be as quick as possible, and she'd

(01:09:41):
be like, it's gonna be an hour and a half
and I'd be like, well, I like it. I'd really
like it in an hour and she'd be like, what's
going to be an hour and a half, So you'll
you'll get her when I say you get her, you know,
because she took her job very seriously and she wanted
to do it right and she wanted to make sure
everybody looked just so I just remember thinking like, oh gosh,

(01:10:01):
I've got to get Layton into her changeover for the
next scene, you know, and yet I have to shoot
the scene again, right, that's so funny. Wow. And then
you had that brilliant turn when everyone expects gossip Girl
to walk in. Instead everyone walks in. So it's like
gossip Girls one of them Gospels, none of them Gospels,

(01:10:23):
all of them, who knows. So that was a great
moment to sort of bring everyone together in the end
of the season. So you had that kind of last
high school moment as everyone standing there sort of befuddled
and then deciding to drink it off, you know, all
those teens drinking at the bar and for me and
for me that was very exciting because I'm a huge
Hitchcock fan and the Oak Room is the bar that

(01:10:47):
is at the beginning of the movie North By Northwest,
and so I was very excited about the idea of
shooting in the oak room at at the Plaza Hotel,
and I was staying just down the road at the
six House and at the time, the oak room was open,
and we used to go down to the oak room,
which was always very exciting to me because I if

(01:11:08):
you know, like it's just hearkened back to the experience
of one of my favorite movies, you know, So the
fact that I got to shoot there was a real
thrill and a suspenseful scene too, so it was a
little a little bit yeah yeah, and to like even
the music that comes on and in that moment that

(01:11:29):
was like I feel like when people go back and
watch or like I had watched the show and are
such fans of it, it seems like that at the
oak room that like sticks in your head, like was
Gossip Girl going to come out? And you know, Serena
kind of being like I'm gonna buy everyone drinks on me,
And those are like memories that stick out I think
for people. We talked about this before, um, this idea

(01:12:01):
that Gossip Girl, you know, began as a high school story,
but then we let the characters grow up, so it's
like we actually are going to college and so that
sort of had to have been scary creatively because it's
like you're leaving this one really well developed environment and
sort of moving into the bigger, broader world. So this
episode kind of has that feeling of like here we

(01:12:22):
go and the Gossipel girls come into and you know,
n y u and whatever it's going to be and
you know, so it's an interesting moment of you know,
it's like closure and the beginning. Yeah, totally what season
three is. Um. We forgot to mention one big thing
that happened in this finale, which is that we get
that teaser of the Georgina solid Georgina return, the fact

(01:12:46):
that she's like making herself Blaire's roommate behind her back,
and like we were left with that, but by the way,
can you do that? I don't just request a roommate?
Can one person request a roommate in the other note?
Maybe in this world you can? And also I don't know,
and in gossip O world a lot of things go on,
but I was like, wow, those emotional right yea. Also,

(01:13:07):
she's signing up for Gallatin, which is like the Continuing
Education school I think or something like that. So it's
like she probably wouldn't have a roommate from whatever. But yeah,
it's also I love the idea that she just shows
up at the Burster's office with her big check and
she's like, sign me up. Yeah. She comes in and
drops a lot of things. She's like, here's the money
to Dan for Dan, and then she's going m y U.

(01:13:27):
And I do feel like I remember, oh at this time,
like how are they going to place where everyone goes?
Because a lot of the characters end up going to
n y U. Dan does, Blair does, Vanessa does? That
didn't ate? I don't remember, No, it doesn't, that's right,
I mean I remember. I have a little fun fact

(01:13:47):
is that I went up because I went to Barnard
College as an undergrad, and then I had some discussions
along the way with that. You know, there was a
feeling that either Blair or Serena or both of them
maybe they go to Barnard and it kind of would
be a good fit in a lot of ways. But
then I think that Barnard wasn't game for it. That's
what I heard. They were like, well, we don't, you know,

(01:14:10):
we're not culture that we're not culture like, which kind
of makes sense, but yeah, but I think that it's
like the New York school thing. I mean, it's you know,
if my memory serves me, it's like we get a
real sense of college by upfront in season three, and
then we kind of back up off of it a
little bit later. But it's like, you know the fact
that we're growing up. I guess story enough, but that

(01:14:34):
you know, that's like a big bad world. Well, I
would love to come back and talk to you guys
when you get into season three, because there was there
was some fun stuff on that one, and I'm trying
to think, Norman, I'm like, what ended up? Like what happens?
I do remember like Hillary Duff coming on and playing
Vanessa's roommate, And there were people that I never worked with,
you know, like people would come onto the show Army Hammer.

(01:14:57):
I missed that whole I didn't remember he was that, Yeah,
I didn't. I didn't work on the show at all
during the Army Hammer part of it. And we never
worked with Carolyn Lagerfelt. I became friends with her through
Kelly Rutherford after the show was over. We became we
became social friends, but I never worked with her, and

(01:15:19):
so you know, my experience of the show. Would I
have intense memories of of working on certain episodes. I
remember there was an episode towards the end of season
three that was during a snowstorm. I remember we were
shooting at the Public Library and it was during a
big blizzard, and and trying to get to and from

(01:15:40):
work and the snowstorm. I remember riding with certain drivers
and having really intense, longstanding conversations with Teamster drivers to
and from work. But then there are whole sections of
the show that I have no memory of. You know.
It's kind of like, oh, really, first I was on
the show. So it's so funny to me, how, you know,

(01:16:01):
going back and just kind of refreshing my memory. I'm like, oh, yeah,
I totally forgot about that whole period of time. You know. Yeah,
it really takes you back through your own life too.
It's like it does. There was a time when I
broke my foot and I had a walking cast on
my foot, and so when we did master shots, I
had to take it off and just like limp around

(01:16:22):
on my like they're broken foot, and then put it back.
But it's like, so I remember that was like a
whole sequence of time too. So I feel like once
I see myself live being around, I'll recognize it. But
you know, it's like these periods of your life. Yeah,
I forgot about that until talking about this. Yeah. Yeah,
it's an interesting um journey down the old memory lane

(01:16:43):
and it's it's like yeah, and it's you know, such
a it's so nice that it's a small world and
we get to bump up against each other sometimes work together,
you know, just like go through life, and those relationships
were created, so you know, dear and big in life. Yeah,
well they are, or they really are. And that's that's
one of the things I would say to all your

(01:17:04):
list There's is everybody was so wonderful there. When I
talk about that experience, I always talk about it from
a place of like it was such a wonderful job.
Everybody was great. I liked everyone. There was no bad egg.
There was no days that I remembers being like, oh
that was horrible. I just remember like, oh, I love

(01:17:25):
going to work. This is great. I had the same feeling.
And this was also like fun, like you always have
really good behind the scenes stories and really good ones
how to shoot this like yeah, and we always we
always talked about after hearing your episodes, we're like, oh my,
got it this and just how you are as a
director and all the things. But I thought to this episode,
like talking about all obviously all the different scenes and

(01:17:46):
storylines and wrapping it up for the season, This reminds
me of how you shoot an episode, because we would
talk about like Blair and Chuck and that you don't
shoot an episode start to finish. So sometimes, like you know,
we were talking about the end of the episode in
the beginning of this, and that's kind of how sometimes
not kind of, that's usually how shooting an episode is.
Nothing is even remotely in order, which to me was

(01:18:09):
always why now working on stuff, I'm like, I always
need a hard copy of my script because of my notes,
like when people use it on a computer, I'm like,
how do you like? I always liked the night before
if I'm sitting in my trailer, like, okay, this happened
in this, I already went through this, already cried with him.
We already broke up here, right, because sometimes you have
a scene before the breakup, so you're in a totally

(01:18:31):
great mood shoot it yet So I just felt like
when we were telling stories and doing the podcast today,
it kind of felt like shooting the actual episode where
it was like, oh, we were shooting this and March,
but it was actually June and anything scene we had
to shoot twice with with Nate and and Chuck because
you know, yeah, so I'm sorry about that. That's all

(01:18:52):
the way I always do the podcasts, you know, Like
when I go on the podcast or when I go
on any podcast, I'm always like, it's this stream of
is this for me on? I'm loving it because this
is how you shoot stuff. Well, the party scene, you know,
I was thinking about that party scene and the scene
with Chuck and Blair was back at the set. That

(01:19:14):
was a set party was at an actual location, but
the room that they went into they built that room
to match the location back at set. And then the
bathroom was at the Plaza Hotel. You know that all
of these things were in these disparate locations totally different days. Yeah.

(01:19:35):
But that's something too that I'm always aware of with
certain directors because now that I'm a producing director, there's
a lot of directors who just think scene to scene,
and I'm always thinking in terms of sequences because I
come from editorial, I'm always thinking in terms of how
does this join up to this scene, and how does
this join up to this scene, so that you're you're
looking at it from a larger point of view. You know,

(01:19:58):
I'm very much like you are us with the script.
I really break it down into sequences. This is a
sequence that's going to be building, and this is another
sequence that's going to be building, you know, And so
I need to really think about the way that I
get in and out of the scenes and and how
I do it, both in terms of music and lighting
and everything else, so that the entire sequence has a

(01:20:20):
unified feel to it. Because you can tell those episodes
where somebody just shot up seeing the scene the scene,
the scene the scene totally. You know, it just feels
like you're changing the channel sometimes. But my own little
director tutorial, and I was thinking, too, oh gosh, having
to go shoot out by n y U with like

(01:20:42):
if they were gonna were the locations were going to be,
or what the sets were going to because I'm like,
that's gonna be a whole another challenge in itself for
the show, do you know what I mean? Like Downtown
just with like the traffic and of people and cars
and all the a d R that would go on,
So I remember thinking, But then they built sets obviously
at Silver Cup and did it all. But it was
I'm just thinking about the episode, which is the second

(01:21:04):
episode three in season three, which you'll get too shortly.
I have some really fun memories of that, but I
guess I'll save them for you and give them to
you when you do episode two. Well, do you remember
we did that party on top of that roof and
down Manhattan, and then we did a lot of pickups

(01:21:27):
for that back at the stage, so we actually had
close ups back on a different and I always I
always show that. I always showed that sequence to my students.
I showed them as sequence first of all, and I go, okay,
so here's the scene of a party on the rooftop.
Is now I'm going to tell you what was shot
on the actual rooftop and what was actually shot back

(01:21:49):
of the stage. Because I realized that I would never
be able. It was the middle summer, and I remember, like,
we'll only have eight hours a night, you know, so
I need to like really figure out what I'm gonna shoot.
Everything that was shooting out towards the city, I shot
out on the actual location and all the close ups
that I could shoot back towards the elevator shaft on

(01:22:09):
the roof. I just took that back to the stage
and shot everybody's close ups back there. So when you
get to that episode, if you look at that sequence,
you'll see like, oh, that one was shot on the
actual location. That one was shot back on the stage.
That was on the location. That was cool. Thing Norman
about that is is the way you would do things
like that that take of certain person in a certain

(01:22:31):
brain and patience and your vision, you wouldn't notice it
at all. Like sometimes when you you tell me this stuff,
I have to go back and rewatch it. And had
you not broken, I still sometimes went back. I remember
in the last episode you did to the podcast, I
went back. I'm like it was something about how you
had to go darker in the scene. It might have
been um that secret society the school impose. Yeah, And

(01:22:53):
I remember you said that, and I went back and
watched what you had told me, and I'm like, what's
wild is I still don't see how you finagled what
you did or you did it, because you still do
it in such a beautiful way, which is like your
students should be very lucky they have someone like you
that was an editor and that knows how to work
with actors and that like can all of a sudden
be like, all right, we can only have three shots

(01:23:14):
of this, and you get it done and make it
look beautiful. It's really neat. That's funny because like right
now there's that big like controversy I've been reading about,
like so much stuff about the uh the new Game
of Thrones, the House of Dragon or Dragon that there's
an entire sequence shot like day for night. So they
were shooting everything in broad daylight and then they in

(01:23:37):
post production made at nighttime, and so all the internet
is a buzz like breaking it down, being like, well
it doesn't look right. Everybody squinting into the sun and
there's clouds and then it's so dark and on the
screen you can't see and you know, it's like funny
because when you can see the filmmaking, it's like people
get it really takes them out of the story, you know.
So it's like that deft hand. It's like that deft

(01:23:57):
hand of letting people get lost in other world without
you know, sort of showing your homework. Right, So it's like, Yeah,
I don't know how many people who listen to this podcast,
you know, not have a lot, you know, an idea
of how television gets made. But you know, for me,
it's like all of these little details. It just really
deepens my appreciation for something that, you know, I get

(01:24:18):
so much enjoyment and escapism and fantastical release from watching TV.
I always think that people who are interested in this
kind of stuff are probably interested in being filmmakers themselves.
So that's one of the reasons why I like to
talk about it, because I do think that it's very
important to think that what we're actually doing on any

(01:24:39):
given day is we're just creating pieces of information. We're
just creating pieces of information that are then assembled into
something and and somebody else could take those same pieces
of information and make something completely different, you know, they
could really change it up, and and uh so I
I've always been very much fast andated with that process

(01:25:01):
of of how you how you can affect people by
what you show them next, how you can make people
feel for somebody like I'll give you a perfect example
again from from the episode The Freshman in season three,
there's a moment where Dan sees Georgina in a different

(01:25:23):
way for the first time, and that happens up on
the rooftop. But I realized when I got into the
editing room, I thought, I haven't nailed that moment. That
moment needs to be a big moment. It needs to
be a big moment between Dan and Georgina for the
first time they really see each other differently. And so
I went back and re shot two close ups of them,

(01:25:44):
two great big close ups where you know, it was
almost like chin to the top of their head, so
that they have this moment where they just look at
each other. And if you look at that sequence, it
changes the way you feel about those characters in relationship
to one another. Whereas the original way I shot it
was just in the in the steadicam walk and talk,

(01:26:05):
and you didn't get that at all. You just got
the like us, two people who know each other. So
the very choice to use those big close ups changes
the audience's experience of what they feel about the character.
And that's the power of a close up. And so
one of the things that I'm always careful about is
overusing my close ups. When I'm shooting, I like to

(01:26:25):
shoot more medium or looser close ups so that when
you go here it really has great meaning. You're really
you're really taking people into a different emotional relationship to
the character. And I think that you have to as
you're planning it, you have to think about those things
and sometimes after the fact. In that case, it was
after the fact, like I realized why they get to

(01:26:48):
at the end of the episode. I really need to
set that up early in the episode, so I need
to see I need to see that moment where they
really look at one another and make eye contact in
a way they never have before. And if you look
at that sequence carefully, you'll see what I'm talking about,
because it's uh, it's I know. I'm like, yeah, that's yeah.

(01:27:09):
But in this in this episode, this finale episode that
we've been talking about today, it's like there's the right
moment with Chuck and Blair with the I love you
stuff when she says I love you to him, and
it's like, that's another moment where it's like his face,
like the way he takes it, the way he hears it,
it changes his face so much. It's such a great
moment by ed. His like work is so deep there
and it's so committed and the shift in his eyes

(01:27:33):
and and she's saying the stuff and we're watching him
you know, hear it, and it's like those small choices
in terms of like, you know, what we're shown and
where we're told to watch, like it changes and it
informs us so beautifully and you can see him suffering
with it. Yeah, those close shots of them are much
larger than the usual clothes shots I would do right
very I got very very close to both of them,

(01:27:55):
and it's beautiful. I can see like the in our
workings of their soul. Yeah, well, well that's that's what
you do with a close up, so you don't want
to waste it. You don't want to like waste it
on moments of exposition. And uh, That's been one of
the frustrating things for me as a visiting director on
a lot of shows is oftentimes they'll want me to
get those close ups on every line of dialogue and

(01:28:15):
I'm like, all right, but I think that's wasting your
close up on something. But yeah, that's a perfect example
of what I'm talking about. You really feel the difference
in their relationship and the intensity. But another shot that
I really like in this episode is the shot of
Serena on the street, just before Sebastian stands character comes

(01:28:35):
up and starts talking. But that's how again. It was
a very cold day. I remember like sitting out on
the street with John Saffron. Then we were so cold
that we went inside one of those deli's on one street,
you know, the warm up, because it was really cold outside.

(01:28:55):
But I said, I think I can make this shot
look really brightened. Summary. So it's this this little wrap
around on her and she's looking up, she looks, she
looks really joyful, like summer's here. And it was shot
on a very miserably, miserably cold day that we pretended
was in June. Yeah, and she had a very summary

(01:29:17):
dress on. That's the thing. When it's supposed to be
summer and it's cold, it's like I'd almost rather be hot. Yeah, okay,
And just to talk, just to talk about costumes for
a moment, that blue dress that she wore to graduation,
I thought, what what is this? She looked at this,
she looks amazing graduation dress with that much side action. Yeah,

(01:29:43):
I was like, oh yeah, And it was Yeah, it
was also so dangerously like positions, So you were like,
don't don't get too much of her, but you know
it's a you know too in this episode two, which
I don't has happened one time or you know what,
it's never happened where there's no closing gossip Girl quote.

(01:30:06):
It just they just show Blair kissing and it's just
gossip girls saying XO xo gossip Girl, which is very
interesting because you would think definitely for a finale there
would have been a whole big chunk of a speech
from her, but that they didn't, and it's never happened before.
It's interesting. Wow, Yeah, I didn't even notice that. That's

(01:30:27):
so cool for clothing there might have been one. Yeah,
and it's interesting. She kind of said everything she needed
to say in this episode and yeah, right, I think
that's right or is it just maybe there is none
and no, that's gotta be Yeah, I don't know they're saying.
It sounds it seems right because but also that powerful.
It's like we get such a payoff seeing the two

(01:30:47):
of them kissing like that and after I love and
he's like, I love you, I love you, I love you,
I love you, so anymore? Right? Yeah, But I do
think you're right, there was enough with both of the
two trapping gossip girl all the things at the graduation,
there were so many things that came out right, you
know that. I mean what else? Yeah, I don't know.
I'm sure she has a lot to say for the

(01:31:08):
next couple of seasons. Anyway, she still wild. Yes, thank
you so much for coming on. You always have such
fun stuff for us to like find out. Or I'm
delighted you asked me to join you again. I really am.
So I'm glad you come back, so glad to talk

(01:31:29):
to you, because it's just like give it just I'm
going to carry this smile with me all day because
you just one of my favorite people. So thank you,
Warman and likewise likewise and I want to come to
just where you now. You're in Vancouver, Well I was
the last time we talked. Right now, I'm in m Flagstaff, Arizona,
but I lived in Arizona. I know I love you, know,

(01:31:52):
I'm I'm thinking I think we talked about the last time.
I'm thinking about eventually. Flag Staff is a possible place
that you wouldn't love it. I love it so yes,
I know I love it. I do love it. And Zia,
you're still in New York. Yeah, I'm in New York.
I'm sitting in the same old spot that I want.

(01:32:15):
I want to plan a trip to New York. Yes,
we'll have to hang out. Yes, yeah, yes, and I'm
going to drive through Flagstaff to jas so that Yes,
let me know each other in person. I would love
that and tell them we said hi. On said over
there are you probably going back to right now? I
am going back to Okay, we'll enjoy it. Well, I'm
not shooting right now. I'm basically just in my producer role,

(01:32:37):
but I was kind of like I got a duck
out of here. I'm doing a podcast about Gossip Girl. Bye, guys,
good bye. What a way to end season two. Wow,
Norman Zizanna, Thank you both for coming on. What a
special group to wrap up the season. I'm very lucky,

(01:33:00):
Love you guys, and thank you listeners as well for
joining today and throughout this amazing journey. I keep saying this,
but it's seriously event so fun taking a walk down
memory Lane and seeing some of these episodes for the
very first time. And I can't wait to get into
season three and see what drama is to come and
who's getting with who and who comes on and leaves?

(01:33:23):
So get ready for season three. X O x O
x O XO is produced by Propagate Content and Meet
Jessica's Or. Our show is executive produced by Langley. Our
producers are Diego Tapia, Christin Vermilia, Emily car and Hannah Harris.

(01:33:44):
Original music by Moxie and Lune, and the episode was
mixed by seth ol Lansky

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