June 7, 2021 • 34 mins
People have been asking Hillary to change ever since the 1970s, when she defied the stereotype of First Lady of Arkansas. And she was willing to change...just never in the way people had hoped.
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
It is a constant balancing act. It's everything from how
you dress and you know what your hairstyle is, to
how loudly you speak or how loudly you laugh, or
you know who you are seen with or I mean,
it's just a constant judgment. Hillary Rodham Clinton's had a
complicated relationship with the public. It started in the nineteen
(00:24):
seventies when she challenged the cookie cutter role laid out
for her as first Lady of Arkansas. It's all occurs
to me that you don't really don't fit the image
that we have created or the governor's wife in Arkansas.
You're not a native. Um, you've been educated in liberal
Eastern universities. If you're less than for it, you don't
have any children, you don't use your husband's name, you
(00:44):
practice law. Does it concern you that maybe other people
feel that you don't fit the image that we have
created for the governor's wife in Arkansas. No, Um, that
doesn't bother me. Um, And I hope that doesn't bother
very many people. But it did bother many people. Hillary
(01:05):
being Hillary made people uncomfortable, and so one by one,
her critics started asking her to change herself. Despite all
her extraordinary accomplishments, including senator, secretary of state, first woman
to be nominated for president by a major political party,
and I mean she even won the popular vote in
the election. Despite all of that, people kept at it.
(01:30):
They wanted Hillary to be different, for her to change,
and she was willing to change, just never in the
way that people had hoped. Our constilled Chillian ore Con.
(01:51):
I'm Maya Shanker, and this is a slight change of plans,
a show that died deep into the world of change
and hopefully gets us to think differently about change in
our own lives. Hi, how are you. Hi? It's great
to meet you, Secretary Clinton. I just wanted to welcome
you formally to my closet. UM. I always dreamed it
would be this way, you know, the first time I
(02:13):
met Hillary Clinton would be from my makeshift recording studio
with clothes everywhere. But I guess this is the world
we live in right now. It is the world we
live in. I have been um privy to many closets
over the last year because as I've been doing my
podcast and talking with friends on Zoom and everything, people
are in closets there in corners of their bedroom there
(02:37):
in kitchens. I mean, it's just been quite a tour
of everybody's living space exactly. You get, you get an
intimate glimpse into people's lives exactly. So I'm just gonna
jump in. Do you mind if I call you Hillary?
Not at all, Not at all. Uh. So I love
to rewind the clock to your twenties, um, and we
can take the little time machine back in time. Um.
(02:59):
So you're a lawyer in d C. You've just wrapped
up your work on the Nixon impeachment hearings, and then
love gets in the way and you end up moving
to Arkansas, and um Bill becomes governor and you are
not the typical first lady. Uh. And that's met with
some resistance, right. Do you mind sharing what it was
(03:21):
that people were taking issue with? Well, I think that
back in what would have been the nineteen seventies, it
was still, you know, somewhat unusual to have graduated from
law school to be teaching law or practicing law. I
did both, uh And I really saw that, but I
(03:44):
didn't think it would impede me in any way. And
then when I married Bill in nineteen seventy five, you know,
I determined that I would keep my own name, which
seemed to me to make a lot of sense, because
that's what I had written under a uh at law school,
that's what I had practice law undertaught, et cetera. And
(04:07):
I think it was um really at the point that
our daughter was born in uh uh February of nineteen
eighty and Bill was having to run for reelection because
there were only two year terms for governors back then,
(04:27):
and the front page announcement was Governor Bill Clinton and
Hillary Rodham, you know, announced the birth of their daughter, Chelsea.
It was probably that moment that really pierced people's public
consciousness that oh my gosh, she has a different name.
And then that became a really big issue. And so
(04:50):
when Bill lost for re election in night in the
Reagan Landslide, among the top reasons people said that they
didn't vote for him was because I didn't take his
last name or change my name, as they would say.
And it was a truly um surprising revelation to me
(05:12):
that that would matter so much to people. But now,
frankly wouldn't make that big a difference to anybody, but
it was significant, and I had so many people come
to me and say, you really have to take your
husband's last name. You're really stopping him from being able
to run again and be governor again. And there's a
(05:33):
lot at stake with him being governor. And the one
person never asked me to do that was my husband.
He thought it was pretty ridiculous also, But I concluded
that it was, you know, for me, um, something that
I was willing to do. And I made an announcement
that I would be Hillary Rodham Clinton. And obviously it
(05:58):
went against what I thought was my decision, but I
balanced all of the pros and cons and decided that
on balance, it was the right thing for me to do. Yeah.
I think a lot of people, women, especially face the
same kind of tension, which is knowing when it makes
sense to compromise. Right, Do I do I take a
(06:20):
principal stance at every turn, but then risk getting kicked
out of the arena altogether and then lose my ability
to have impact. Or do I try to more thoughtfully
pick my battles and stay in the arena and just
play the longer game. Well, that's exactly right. I was
not going to stop practicing law. I was not going
to stop being outspoken about a lot of issues that
(06:43):
really mattered to me. And when Bill was reelected in
two um, I dove back in uh and share the
task force to reform education in the state. And it
was I'm sure easier for some people to hear the
changes I was advocating for because I was all of
(07:07):
a sudden truly understood to be the governor's wife. So
it is a constant balancing act. And I'm sure that's
true for all people, but I think you're right to
say that as women, we make those decisions constantly. Uh.
And it's everything from how you dress and you know
what your hairstyle is too, how loudly you speak, or
(07:30):
how loudly you laugh, or you know who you are
seen with or I mean, it's just a constant judgment
both internally you're judging yourself, but most uh importantly how
you're being judged, because there continues to be a rather
active double standard. Yeah. There's some really telling footage from
(07:52):
back in the day where you're getting interviewed about your
role as first Lady, and underneath your face it says
Hillary Raddon and the underneath that in parentheses it says
Mrs Bill Clinton. I mean, I just laughed out loud. Right,
But I'm part of a different generation where it just
seems like, of course, I'm going to keep my last name.
But I recognized that at the time that was a
(08:15):
truly bold, uh feminist statement. UM. So I want to
dig into that a little bit more, which is when
you did first marry Bill Um, what what fueled your
decision to keep your last name. I was just um,
you know, feeling like he was going into politics, uh,
and he would have a very public life at that time.
(08:36):
I never thought I would personally run for office, but
I thought I would stay as an advocate. Um. I'd
been you know, working for the Children's Offense Fund, I'd
been a lawyer on the impeachment inquiry staff. I'd had
really fascinating important jobs um for me, and I wanted
my professional life to be considered separate from his. And
(09:00):
I'll tell you a funny story. Before I took his
last name, I was um helping on a big lawsuit
in my law firm with one of the senior partners.
And we went to trial. And we went to trial
in this rural county outside of Little Rock, and the
judge was at that time under investigation and the office
(09:25):
investigating him was the Attorney General's office, headed by my husband.
So we were in the courtroom and this was the
kind of judge back in the day who would say
how pretty I looked, and asked me to stand up
and twirl around to show everybody what, you know, pretty
dress I was wearing. On and on. We made our
(09:46):
case and we moved to be dismissed from the case,
and we were successful. So we get back to our
office and the next day the senior partner calls me
in and he said, well, I'm sure glad we got
dismissed yesterday because on one of the breaks, the judge
was cursing out your husband, talking about how terrible the
Attorney general was to be investigating him. So one of
(10:06):
the other lawyers said, well, you know, your honor, uh,
that young woman that was in the courtroom, that's Bill
Clinton's wife. And the judge said, well, if I'd known that,
I wouldn't have dismissed the case against your client. Now,
that to me encapsulated, you know, the challenge of being
married to a public figure but being very committed to
(10:28):
my own professional career. I mean, I love that Bill
never asked you to change your name. So when you finally,
when you finally took the plunge, what did he say
to you? Was he kind of like thanks? But yeah, yeah,
he basically said, look, you know, I wish you wouldn't
have to do this. I wish you didn't think you
had to do it. Please don't do it for me.
(10:49):
And you know, he said everything the right thing, but
he also encountered from a lot of you know, his
male supporters, you know, men who would say, you know, Bill,
I always thought of you as a really you know,
strong guy, and how come you don't make your wife
take you know, take your name. I mean, it was
such a flash point, and it it was, you know,
(11:14):
something that I guess both of us should have predicted.
Now we would be you know, just laughing at it.
But look at what they make big issues out of today.
So I guess we shouldn't be surprised that anything which
touches a cultural, uh hot point is going to provoke
(11:36):
a reaction. Do you remember the first time you introduced
yourself as Hillary Clinton? Oh? Sure, I would. I did
a press conference. I mean, you know, I was at
an event and I said, look, I know this means
a lot of a number of people, and I don't
want their concern about you know, my last name to
(11:59):
interfere with doing what's right for the state and making
some tough decisions. So from now on I will be
uh known as Hillary Rodham Clinton. I just did it,
very matter of fact. I didn't make a big deal
out of it, and um, you know I assumed that. Okay,
now you can argue about me about other things. Why
(12:22):
is she still working? Why why is she, you know,
telling people to raise their taxes to pay for teachers?
What is she doing? And then later why is she
fighting for healthcare and the you know when Bill was president?
So fine, if if, if this gets you to focus
on what I actually think it is important, and that
is how we're going to live together, make tough decisions together. Uh,
(12:43):
let's do that. It's interesting. I mean, there was an
element of a slippery slope which used to change her name.
It's that with positive reception and then all of a sudden,
people are like, oh, yeah, but what about your hair
and your glasses make up? Think can we get you
a stylist. I'm curioused to know whether changing any of
these parts of yourself ever affected your self perception. You know,
(13:07):
I never thought any of it affected my um self
perception or my identity, and there were parts that I
ended up enjoying. You know, I finally got around to
forcing myself to our contact lenses, you know, made a
big difference and how I could actually see as well
as be seen. Uh, I had a lot of fun
(13:29):
all of a sudden, you know, thinking well, you know,
I don't have to just wear turtlenecks and and and
baggy vests and and you know skirts and pants or whatever. Um. So, yeah,
they're parts of it that were interesting that you know,
maybe I wouldn't have pursued had I not married Bill,
(13:49):
or had I not ever married anybody. But I didn't
ever feel like it affected my core as to who
I was. I I never and I give my parents
credit for this, maya. I never I never really felt like, uh,
anybody was damaging me or undermining me or subverting me
(14:18):
because I just didn't, you know, either respond to that
or didn't frankly allow it. So, you know, maybe it's stubbornness.
Maybe it's just the you know, strength of you know,
two parents who never told me that there wasn't anything
I couldn't do as a woman. Um, and so I
don't feel like any of the sort of small choices
(14:39):
compromises that I made along the way were that significant.
I did feel so strong in my own sense of
being in purpose. I think that also caused a reaction,
and I think that was hard for people, uh, men
and women to understand. But it's just who I am. Yeah,
(15:03):
I do wonder whether this is so interesting because it
almost seems like the people of Arkansas wanted you to
suffer a bit more from that name changed, Like it
would have almost felt more satisfying, Um, if it had
been a really challenging thing for you, Like maybe they
were they were hoping you were going to give them
something meaningful to show how much you. I don't know
(15:27):
is how wrong i'd been. How Yeah, it's like the
fact that it was easy in some sense because you're
such a pragmatist right to change your last name, left
people feeling like, Okay, she changed the last name, but
damn it, but she didn't do enough. Yeah, we were
trying to change her and she's not willing to change.
That's one right, that's really perceptive. Maya, that is exactly right.
(15:50):
And this has been a constant theme through my adult life.
You know, Um, there's something about women stepping into the arena,
particularly being unapologetic about it, being um, willing to stand
up against or call out uh strong groups or interest
(16:13):
groups or forces at work whatever. Uh. That is in
and of itself still somewhat um surprising and even uh
not fully acceptable. Uh. And and so I I really
did experience that, um, and I think I paid a
(16:37):
price for it. I mean I think that, you know,
being unapologetically outspoken and willing to uh challenge conventional wisdom.
You know, it's discomforting for a lot of people. Yeah,
did I put up with a lot of stuff? Yeah?
Did I put up with a lot of stuff when
I ran for office? Yeah? Did I put up with
(16:59):
you know, all kind lines of you know, sexism and misogyny. Absolutely,
some I just ignored for you know, all the reasons
that people women of my age ignored that stuff. Uh.
It just wasn't worth the battle. Even in the case
of Arkansas, you made all these superficial changes to your
(17:20):
look and you changed your last name, but it didn't
it didn't do what people were hoping to do, which
is to break you a little bit, you know, to
like expose some deep vulnerabilities, because what do bullies want. Ultimately,
they want to get a rise out of you. They
want to see you crack a bit. But you know,
it's so interesting. This is so interesting to me because
in the seen campaign, like for example, the famous incident
(17:42):
of the second debate where Trump is looming over me,
leering at me and trying to intimidate me, and I'm
madly going through what are my options here? Do I
turn around and say, back up, you creep? You know
you don't intimidate me? Do I, you know, try to
laugh it off? What do I do? How do ideal
with what is a clearly uh signaled effort on his
(18:08):
part to his supporters that he's got the little lady
in hand because he's a master manipulator. And it was hard,
and eventually I decided, no, you know, I'm not going
to respond. I'm not going to either laugh it off
or try to, you know, expose it, because I don't
want people to think I can't take it. I mean,
(18:29):
I'm trying to be president of the United States, for
heaven's sakes. So this is a highly complicated calculation as
a woman, and I probably would guess that women make
that calculation dozens of times a day. Yeah, you know,
I think that this constant critique that you've gotten over
(18:51):
the course of your whole life is we don't know
the real Hillary Clinton. And I just wonder and having
this conversation if that's a euphemism for we don't accept
the real Hillary Clinton's that that is exactly She is
not like me, or she's not like the women that
I know, or she's not like what I want a
(19:13):
woman to be. You know, I used to laugh when
uh people in the media would say, oh, you know,
she yells. Have you ever gone to a rally where
any man is running for anything and he doesn't at
some point yell, I mean, good grief, look whoy I
was running against in and all of the yelling that
(19:35):
went on. But you know, that's not what we want.
So this is one of the areas that is really
rich for further research and understanding, because how do you
communicate about that. You know, you don't want to sound
like you're whining, you don't want to sound like you
can't take it, you don't want to sound like you're
asking for special treatment. But how do you begin to
(19:59):
unpack that we'll be back in a moment. That the
slight change of plans. When Hillary Clinton moved into the
White House after her husband became president, she again challenged
(20:20):
the cookie cutter role laid out for her, this time
as First Lady of the United States. Instead of sticking
to her ceremonial duties, Hillary was asked by her husband
to lead the Task Force on National Healthcare Reform. It
was an ambitious role that had never been given to
a first Lady before. She said yes, and almost immediately
(20:41):
the public criticism began to pour in. You've been under
this glaring spotlight. Right. It's unimaginable for a lot of
people to be under such sustained scrutiny um for so
many decades. And it's it's almost like you've had this
mirror permanently stationed in front of you that's just been
reflecting things back in the form of a constructed Hillary. Right,
(21:05):
I mean, and so I do wonder like, obviously many
of the things reflected back to you had been false,
had been distorted, um. But was there ever something reflected
back to you over the course of your long career
that taught you something new about yourself? Yes? And and
you know, I think. UM, I say this often because
(21:26):
young people ask me all the time, how do you
get into politics? How do you take you know, all
the attacks and everything, And I said, look, I learned
to take criticism seriously, but not personally. And by that,
I mean your critics can uh teach you things that
your friends either won't or I don't know to UM,
(21:49):
you have to be careful about where the criticism is
coming from because a lot of times it's not well meaning.
It's not it's not well intentioned at all, but you
do have to at least understand and try to figure
out how best to deal with it. So with respect
to health care, UM, I you know, I learned a
(22:14):
lot about the perceptions shaping reality. UM. You know. My
view was that we had all these really hard working,
incredibly smart people from all over the country who were
coming up with a plan that would make it possible
for us to get to universal health care and make
(22:34):
it affordable. So, I mean I worked on that very
hard to help shape it and then to help present it.
But I really believe that because I was the President's wife,
it was hard for a lot of people to accept
(22:54):
the UM plan for what it was And if I
had known that going in, I still would have worked
really hard on it, but I wouldn't have headed it.
Somebody else would have been the face of it, because
all I cared about was trying to get it done.
And you're taking it on as the first Lady of
the United States, unpaid volunteer. But nevertheless in that role
(23:19):
that may just be too much for the body politic
to absorb. And what did that teach you about yourself
in terms of you know where where specific blind spot was,
or something that you just needed to learn the hard way,
like well, I mean, it was a very big learning
curve to be in a position that was totally vicarious.
(23:44):
You know, everybody in a White House is there for
only one reason. The President wants them there. And who
who the president Mary's ends up in the White House,
who the President picks as vice president ends up in
the White House. All these people end up in the
White House. So I didn't have agency in a way
that made it my responsibility um as I did when
(24:08):
I became a senator. I do wonder whether learning this
lesson um when you were first Lady in the White
House and recognizing that you maybe didn't love playing the
vicarious role ended up fueling your interest in you know,
untethering yourself and and running for senate. Was that was
(24:30):
that part of the evolution for you? Yes, it was.
And I'll tell you the exact moment that it all
came together, because I had, as I said, no idea
that I would ever actually run for office. And then,
you know, having um been in the White House and
knowing that it was going to end, you know, trying
to think about what I was going to do next
(24:53):
was pretty much on my mind. And after the mid
term elections when and then Senator moynihan said he wasn't
going to run again, immediately Democrats in New York started
calling me asking me to run, and and I'm sure
some of them thought I would be an excellent senator,
but a lot of them thought that, um, I was
(25:15):
the only person they could think of who was available,
who could beat Rudy Giuliani, who was running. So you know,
he had been mayor, he was obviously controversial, he was
obviously tough and all of that. So we hadn't seen
anything yet, which is anything. Well, he lost he lost
his mind. I think I don't know what happened to him.
(25:36):
But so people started calling me members of Congress and others,
and I kept saying no, no, no, no no. And
then in the spring of ninety nine, I was as
first lady in New York City at a high school
to promote women's sports. It was like a Title nine event,
and there was a new um documentary coming out about
(26:01):
women in sports, and the name of the documentary was
Dare to Compete. And of course, you know, the New
York papers are filled with people trying to get me
to run and my saying, you know, no, etcetera. And
the young woman who introduced me captain of you know,
basketball team, she introduced me, and then she bent over
and she whispered in my ear, dare to compete, Mrs Clinton,
(26:21):
dare to compete. I was so astonished by that, because
you know, I had spent many years urging women to compete,
you know, in sports and academics and science, in politics.
I campaigned for dozens of women running for Congress or governor,
(26:43):
whatever election it was. And I suddenly thought to myself,
maybe you're afraid to compete. Maybe you are telling people
to do something that you wouldn't do yourself. And it
was literally at that moment that I took seriously running
for the Senate and working through it and trying to
(27:05):
be as honest with myself as I could. I thought, Okay,
I'm going to try this, and I had no idea
whether it would work or not, because when you're uh
supporting somebody else, and I'd support it, not just my husband,
but you know, hundreds of people, you know, it's always
about them, and then all of a sudden, you know
(27:26):
it's about you. And so it was. It was a
big transition. But it was that well, that young woman
at that moment that really, I think turned my head around.
What do you think you were scared of? I think
it was just the unknown. I think it was knowing
how hard politics is, because honestly I'm kind of an
(27:47):
expert on that. I thought, you know, I'm just gonna
be walking into the meat grinder. It's been, you know,
a very eventful eight years. I could go teach, or
write or do all kinds of interesting things. Why do
I want to do that? You know? Why do I
want to subject myself to that? And and remember I
had been burned in effigy long with other things, so
(28:11):
I knew I was already again because of all the
stuff I represented as a I don't know, baby boomer
woman who you know, didn't know her place. I guess
I had been, you know, subjected to so many attacks
from Rush Limbaugh and all the people like that. Why
did I want to do that? Why? And then I
(28:33):
kind of thought, Okay, you have been and you also
believe that there's a lot of things we need to do.
You've had a front row seat on history. So get
out there and try. You never know until you try. Um,
So that's what I ended up doing. Yeah. I think
it's easy for people to think of you now and
say Hillary Clinton came out of the box this way, right.
(28:55):
She was she always had the courage in bravery to
run for these big offices. But you know, you had
to go through your own personal evolution just like every
other person out there. Um, what were some if you
don't mind sharing, like, what were some insecurities that you
had along the way that you had to work through?
(29:16):
Oh my gosh. You know, once you're out there on
your own, you're not there too advocate for a program
or advocate for a candidate. You know, I think, um,
we're gonna be atty good at it. You know, you
go from behind the scenes to the front of the stage,
(29:37):
and how are people going to respond to you? And
are they going to believe you, listen to you, agree
with you? Um, is your personality? Is it going to
be enough? So yeah, I mean there's a lot of
of criticism, and then you know, you get all of
(29:57):
the gendered criticism like, um, don't wear that color where
this color, don't wear flat shoes where heels or vice versa,
don't let your hair grow, don't let your hair be short.
I mean, you everybody feels like they can critique a
woman in the public arena. They don't do that to men,
you know, nine percent of the time. And I had
(30:21):
some of the same experience when I practiced law, because
you know, there were expectations about what a woman lawyer
should look like. So I wasn't totally surprised, but the
amount of unsolicited advice that you start to receive, and
people say things like, you know, uh, learn to talk
like and then they always fell on a man's name,
(30:42):
like learn to talk like Bill Clinton, learned to talk
like Winston Churchill. I remember somebody said all of these
kind of uh, you know, expectations that are not at
all who you are, and what you have to do
is just earned to be yourself, and just be yourself
(31:03):
and do the best you can, and then you know
you'll either be successful or not, but at least you'll
be true to yourself. I have been pretty much the
same person says that was a little girl, and I
think your insights into how that rattled a lot of
people in terms of what was to be expected. But
(31:26):
I also think that it still is affecting women across
the board in every walk of life, and so you
have to first of all be at peace with who
you are, then try to translate that into the role
you're playing in an effective way, whether it's private or
personal or public, and just get the most out of
(31:50):
every day. Constiu, constute, if we hadn't talked so much
about me, I have a lot of questions for you.
(32:11):
I think you're slightly more interesting than me, So I'm
glad we spent the time this way. It was such
a pleasure. Good luck too, and I hope I get
to meet you in person. Take care, Yes, I hope
so too. All right, take care, Okay, bye bye, Hey,
thanks for listening. See you next week when I'm going
to be talking to change expert Dr Katie Milkman about
(32:31):
science based strategies to help you inspire change in your
own life. And I was in the seminar and a
graph went up, which normally doesn't change your life, but
this graph changed my life. The graph just showed a
breakdown of how many premature deaths are due to different causes,
and of premature death turn out to be the result
(32:52):
of decisions that we can change. Do you have a
Slight Change of Plans story that you'd like to share?
Are leave a message on our change hotline at nine
one seven, five four four eight, nine seven seven. It
could just end up on a future episode of this show.
That's nine one seven, five four four eight nine seven seven.
(33:14):
You can follow us on Twitter at Slight Change Pod.
A Slight Change of Plans is created, co written, and
executive produced by me Maya Shunker. It's produced and co
written by Mola Board. Associate producer is David John, Executive
producer is Justine Lange, Editor is Jen Guera. Sound design
(33:35):
and mixed engineering from Jason Gambrel and Ben Holliday. Our
theme song is I Can Change by Lake Street Dive.
Original music for the series by Jason Gambrel, additional music
from Blue Dot Sessions and Epidemic Sound, and of course
a very special thanks to Jimmy Lee. To learn more
about a Slight Change of Plans and to sign up
(33:57):
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(34:18):
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It is a constant balancing act. It's everything from how
you dress and you know what your hairstyle is, to
how loudly you speak or how loudly you laugh, or
you know who you are seen with or I mean,
it's just a constant judgment. Hillary Rodham Clinton's had a
complicated relationship with the public. It started in the nineteen
(00:24):
seventies when she challenged the cookie cutter role laid out
for her as first Lady of Arkansas. It's all occurs
to me that you don't really don't fit the image
that we have created or the governor's wife in Arkansas.
You're not a native. Um, you've been educated in liberal
Eastern universities. If you're less than for it, you don't
have any children, you don't use your husband's name, you
(00:44):
practice law. Does it concern you that maybe other people
feel that you don't fit the image that we have
created for the governor's wife in Arkansas. No, Um, that
doesn't bother me. Um, And I hope that doesn't bother
very many people. But it did bother many people. Hillary
(01:05):
being Hillary made people uncomfortable, and so one by one,
her critics started asking her to change herself. Despite all
her extraordinary accomplishments, including senator, secretary of state, first woman
to be nominated for president by a major political party,
and I mean she even won the popular vote in
the election. Despite all of that, people kept at it.
(01:30):
They wanted Hillary to be different, for her to change,
and she was willing to change, just never in the
way that people had hoped. Our constilled Chillian ore Con.
(01:51):
I'm Maya Shanker, and this is a slight change of plans,
a show that died deep into the world of change
and hopefully gets us to think differently about change in
our own lives. Hi, how are you. Hi? It's great
to meet you, Secretary Clinton. I just wanted to welcome
you formally to my closet. UM. I always dreamed it
would be this way, you know, the first time I
(02:13):
met Hillary Clinton would be from my makeshift recording studio
with clothes everywhere. But I guess this is the world
we live in right now. It is the world we
live in. I have been um privy to many closets
over the last year because as I've been doing my
podcast and talking with friends on Zoom and everything, people
are in closets there in corners of their bedroom there
(02:37):
in kitchens. I mean, it's just been quite a tour
of everybody's living space exactly. You get, you get an
intimate glimpse into people's lives exactly. So I'm just gonna
jump in. Do you mind if I call you Hillary?
Not at all, Not at all. Uh. So I love
to rewind the clock to your twenties, um, and we
can take the little time machine back in time. Um.
(02:59):
So you're a lawyer in d C. You've just wrapped
up your work on the Nixon impeachment hearings, and then
love gets in the way and you end up moving
to Arkansas, and um Bill becomes governor and you are
not the typical first lady. Uh. And that's met with
some resistance, right. Do you mind sharing what it was
(03:21):
that people were taking issue with? Well, I think that
back in what would have been the nineteen seventies, it
was still, you know, somewhat unusual to have graduated from
law school to be teaching law or practicing law. I
did both, uh And I really saw that, but I
(03:44):
didn't think it would impede me in any way. And
then when I married Bill in nineteen seventy five, you know,
I determined that I would keep my own name, which
seemed to me to make a lot of sense, because
that's what I had written under a uh at law school,
that's what I had practice law undertaught, et cetera. And
(04:07):
I think it was um really at the point that
our daughter was born in uh uh February of nineteen
eighty and Bill was having to run for reelection because
there were only two year terms for governors back then,
(04:27):
and the front page announcement was Governor Bill Clinton and
Hillary Rodham, you know, announced the birth of their daughter, Chelsea.
It was probably that moment that really pierced people's public
consciousness that oh my gosh, she has a different name.
And then that became a really big issue. And so
(04:50):
when Bill lost for re election in night in the
Reagan Landslide, among the top reasons people said that they
didn't vote for him was because I didn't take his
last name or change my name, as they would say.
And it was a truly um surprising revelation to me
(05:12):
that that would matter so much to people. But now,
frankly wouldn't make that big a difference to anybody, but
it was significant, and I had so many people come
to me and say, you really have to take your
husband's last name. You're really stopping him from being able
to run again and be governor again. And there's a
(05:33):
lot at stake with him being governor. And the one
person never asked me to do that was my husband.
He thought it was pretty ridiculous also, But I concluded
that it was, you know, for me, um, something that
I was willing to do. And I made an announcement
that I would be Hillary Rodham Clinton. And obviously it
(05:58):
went against what I thought was my decision, but I
balanced all of the pros and cons and decided that
on balance, it was the right thing for me to do. Yeah.
I think a lot of people, women, especially face the
same kind of tension, which is knowing when it makes
sense to compromise. Right, Do I do I take a
(06:20):
principal stance at every turn, but then risk getting kicked
out of the arena altogether and then lose my ability
to have impact. Or do I try to more thoughtfully
pick my battles and stay in the arena and just
play the longer game. Well, that's exactly right. I was
not going to stop practicing law. I was not going
to stop being outspoken about a lot of issues that
(06:43):
really mattered to me. And when Bill was reelected in
two um, I dove back in uh and share the
task force to reform education in the state. And it
was I'm sure easier for some people to hear the
changes I was advocating for because I was all of
(07:07):
a sudden truly understood to be the governor's wife. So
it is a constant balancing act. And I'm sure that's
true for all people, but I think you're right to
say that as women, we make those decisions constantly. Uh.
And it's everything from how you dress and you know
what your hairstyle is too, how loudly you speak, or
(07:30):
how loudly you laugh, or you know who you are
seen with or I mean, it's just a constant judgment
both internally you're judging yourself, but most uh importantly how
you're being judged, because there continues to be a rather
active double standard. Yeah. There's some really telling footage from
(07:52):
back in the day where you're getting interviewed about your
role as first Lady, and underneath your face it says
Hillary Raddon and the underneath that in parentheses it says
Mrs Bill Clinton. I mean, I just laughed out loud. Right,
But I'm part of a different generation where it just
seems like, of course, I'm going to keep my last name.
But I recognized that at the time that was a
(08:15):
truly bold, uh feminist statement. UM. So I want to
dig into that a little bit more, which is when
you did first marry Bill Um, what what fueled your
decision to keep your last name. I was just um,
you know, feeling like he was going into politics, uh,
and he would have a very public life at that time.
(08:36):
I never thought I would personally run for office, but
I thought I would stay as an advocate. Um. I'd
been you know, working for the Children's Offense Fund, I'd
been a lawyer on the impeachment inquiry staff. I'd had
really fascinating important jobs um for me, and I wanted
my professional life to be considered separate from his. And
(09:00):
I'll tell you a funny story. Before I took his
last name, I was um helping on a big lawsuit
in my law firm with one of the senior partners.
And we went to trial. And we went to trial
in this rural county outside of Little Rock, and the
judge was at that time under investigation and the office
(09:25):
investigating him was the Attorney General's office, headed by my husband.
So we were in the courtroom and this was the
kind of judge back in the day who would say
how pretty I looked, and asked me to stand up
and twirl around to show everybody what, you know, pretty
dress I was wearing. On and on. We made our
(09:46):
case and we moved to be dismissed from the case,
and we were successful. So we get back to our
office and the next day the senior partner calls me
in and he said, well, I'm sure glad we got
dismissed yesterday because on one of the breaks, the judge
was cursing out your husband, talking about how terrible the
Attorney general was to be investigating him. So one of
(10:06):
the other lawyers said, well, you know, your honor, uh,
that young woman that was in the courtroom, that's Bill
Clinton's wife. And the judge said, well, if I'd known that,
I wouldn't have dismissed the case against your client. Now,
that to me encapsulated, you know, the challenge of being
married to a public figure but being very committed to
(10:28):
my own professional career. I mean, I love that Bill
never asked you to change your name. So when you finally,
when you finally took the plunge, what did he say
to you? Was he kind of like thanks? But yeah, yeah,
he basically said, look, you know, I wish you wouldn't
have to do this. I wish you didn't think you
had to do it. Please don't do it for me.
(10:49):
And you know, he said everything the right thing, but
he also encountered from a lot of you know, his
male supporters, you know, men who would say, you know, Bill,
I always thought of you as a really you know,
strong guy, and how come you don't make your wife
take you know, take your name. I mean, it was
such a flash point, and it it was, you know,
(11:14):
something that I guess both of us should have predicted.
Now we would be you know, just laughing at it.
But look at what they make big issues out of today.
So I guess we shouldn't be surprised that anything which
touches a cultural, uh hot point is going to provoke
(11:36):
a reaction. Do you remember the first time you introduced
yourself as Hillary Clinton? Oh? Sure, I would. I did
a press conference. I mean, you know, I was at
an event and I said, look, I know this means
a lot of a number of people, and I don't
want their concern about you know, my last name to
(11:59):
interfere with doing what's right for the state and making
some tough decisions. So from now on I will be
uh known as Hillary Rodham Clinton. I just did it,
very matter of fact. I didn't make a big deal
out of it, and um, you know I assumed that. Okay,
now you can argue about me about other things. Why
(12:22):
is she still working? Why why is she, you know,
telling people to raise their taxes to pay for teachers?
What is she doing? And then later why is she
fighting for healthcare and the you know when Bill was president?
So fine, if if, if this gets you to focus
on what I actually think it is important, and that
is how we're going to live together, make tough decisions together. Uh,
(12:43):
let's do that. It's interesting. I mean, there was an
element of a slippery slope which used to change her name.
It's that with positive reception and then all of a sudden,
people are like, oh, yeah, but what about your hair
and your glasses make up? Think can we get you
a stylist. I'm curioused to know whether changing any of
these parts of yourself ever affected your self perception. You know,
(13:07):
I never thought any of it affected my um self
perception or my identity, and there were parts that I
ended up enjoying. You know, I finally got around to
forcing myself to our contact lenses, you know, made a
big difference and how I could actually see as well
as be seen. Uh, I had a lot of fun
(13:29):
all of a sudden, you know, thinking well, you know,
I don't have to just wear turtlenecks and and and
baggy vests and and you know skirts and pants or whatever. Um. So, yeah,
they're parts of it that were interesting that you know,
maybe I wouldn't have pursued had I not married Bill,
(13:49):
or had I not ever married anybody. But I didn't
ever feel like it affected my core as to who
I was. I I never and I give my parents
credit for this, maya. I never I never really felt like, uh,
anybody was damaging me or undermining me or subverting me
(14:18):
because I just didn't, you know, either respond to that
or didn't frankly allow it. So, you know, maybe it's stubbornness.
Maybe it's just the you know, strength of you know,
two parents who never told me that there wasn't anything
I couldn't do as a woman. Um, and so I
don't feel like any of the sort of small choices
(14:39):
compromises that I made along the way were that significant.
I did feel so strong in my own sense of
being in purpose. I think that also caused a reaction,
and I think that was hard for people, uh, men
and women to understand. But it's just who I am. Yeah,
(15:03):
I do wonder whether this is so interesting because it
almost seems like the people of Arkansas wanted you to
suffer a bit more from that name changed, Like it
would have almost felt more satisfying, Um, if it had
been a really challenging thing for you, Like maybe they
were they were hoping you were going to give them
something meaningful to show how much you. I don't know
(15:27):
is how wrong i'd been. How Yeah, it's like the
fact that it was easy in some sense because you're
such a pragmatist right to change your last name, left
people feeling like, Okay, she changed the last name, but
damn it, but she didn't do enough. Yeah, we were
trying to change her and she's not willing to change.
That's one right, that's really perceptive. Maya, that is exactly right.
(15:50):
And this has been a constant theme through my adult life.
You know, Um, there's something about women stepping into the arena,
particularly being unapologetic about it, being um, willing to stand
up against or call out uh strong groups or interest
(16:13):
groups or forces at work whatever. Uh. That is in
and of itself still somewhat um surprising and even uh
not fully acceptable. Uh. And and so I I really
did experience that, um, and I think I paid a
(16:37):
price for it. I mean I think that, you know,
being unapologetically outspoken and willing to uh challenge conventional wisdom.
You know, it's discomforting for a lot of people. Yeah,
did I put up with a lot of stuff? Yeah?
Did I put up with a lot of stuff when
I ran for office? Yeah? Did I put up with
(16:59):
you know, all kind lines of you know, sexism and misogyny. Absolutely,
some I just ignored for you know, all the reasons
that people women of my age ignored that stuff. Uh.
It just wasn't worth the battle. Even in the case
of Arkansas, you made all these superficial changes to your
(17:20):
look and you changed your last name, but it didn't
it didn't do what people were hoping to do, which
is to break you a little bit, you know, to
like expose some deep vulnerabilities, because what do bullies want. Ultimately,
they want to get a rise out of you. They
want to see you crack a bit. But you know,
it's so interesting. This is so interesting to me because
in the seen campaign, like for example, the famous incident
(17:42):
of the second debate where Trump is looming over me,
leering at me and trying to intimidate me, and I'm
madly going through what are my options here? Do I
turn around and say, back up, you creep? You know
you don't intimidate me? Do I, you know, try to
laugh it off? What do I do? How do ideal
with what is a clearly uh signaled effort on his
(18:08):
part to his supporters that he's got the little lady
in hand because he's a master manipulator. And it was hard,
and eventually I decided, no, you know, I'm not going
to respond. I'm not going to either laugh it off
or try to, you know, expose it, because I don't
want people to think I can't take it. I mean,
(18:29):
I'm trying to be president of the United States, for
heaven's sakes. So this is a highly complicated calculation as
a woman, and I probably would guess that women make
that calculation dozens of times a day. Yeah, you know,
I think that this constant critique that you've gotten over
(18:51):
the course of your whole life is we don't know
the real Hillary Clinton. And I just wonder and having
this conversation if that's a euphemism for we don't accept
the real Hillary Clinton's that that is exactly She is
not like me, or she's not like the women that
I know, or she's not like what I want a
(19:13):
woman to be. You know, I used to laugh when
uh people in the media would say, oh, you know,
she yells. Have you ever gone to a rally where
any man is running for anything and he doesn't at
some point yell, I mean, good grief, look whoy I
was running against in and all of the yelling that
(19:35):
went on. But you know, that's not what we want.
So this is one of the areas that is really
rich for further research and understanding, because how do you
communicate about that. You know, you don't want to sound
like you're whining, you don't want to sound like you
can't take it, you don't want to sound like you're
asking for special treatment. But how do you begin to
(19:59):
unpack that we'll be back in a moment. That the
slight change of plans. When Hillary Clinton moved into the
White House after her husband became president, she again challenged
(20:20):
the cookie cutter role laid out for her, this time
as First Lady of the United States. Instead of sticking
to her ceremonial duties, Hillary was asked by her husband
to lead the Task Force on National Healthcare Reform. It
was an ambitious role that had never been given to
a first Lady before. She said yes, and almost immediately
(20:41):
the public criticism began to pour in. You've been under
this glaring spotlight. Right. It's unimaginable for a lot of
people to be under such sustained scrutiny um for so
many decades. And it's it's almost like you've had this
mirror permanently stationed in front of you that's just been
reflecting things back in the form of a constructed Hillary. Right,
(21:05):
I mean, and so I do wonder like, obviously many
of the things reflected back to you had been false,
had been distorted, um. But was there ever something reflected
back to you over the course of your long career
that taught you something new about yourself? Yes? And and
you know, I think. UM, I say this often because
(21:26):
young people ask me all the time, how do you
get into politics? How do you take you know, all
the attacks and everything, And I said, look, I learned
to take criticism seriously, but not personally. And by that,
I mean your critics can uh teach you things that
your friends either won't or I don't know to UM,
(21:49):
you have to be careful about where the criticism is
coming from because a lot of times it's not well meaning.
It's not it's not well intentioned at all, but you
do have to at least understand and try to figure
out how best to deal with it. So with respect
to health care, UM, I you know, I learned a
(22:14):
lot about the perceptions shaping reality. UM. You know. My
view was that we had all these really hard working,
incredibly smart people from all over the country who were
coming up with a plan that would make it possible
for us to get to universal health care and make
(22:34):
it affordable. So, I mean I worked on that very
hard to help shape it and then to help present it.
But I really believe that because I was the President's wife,
it was hard for a lot of people to accept
(22:54):
the UM plan for what it was And if I
had known that going in, I still would have worked
really hard on it, but I wouldn't have headed it.
Somebody else would have been the face of it, because
all I cared about was trying to get it done.
And you're taking it on as the first Lady of
the United States, unpaid volunteer. But nevertheless in that role
(23:19):
that may just be too much for the body politic
to absorb. And what did that teach you about yourself
in terms of you know where where specific blind spot was,
or something that you just needed to learn the hard way,
like well, I mean, it was a very big learning
curve to be in a position that was totally vicarious.
(23:44):
You know, everybody in a White House is there for
only one reason. The President wants them there. And who
who the president Mary's ends up in the White House,
who the President picks as vice president ends up in
the White House. All these people end up in the
White House. So I didn't have agency in a way
that made it my responsibility um as I did when
(24:08):
I became a senator. I do wonder whether learning this
lesson um when you were first Lady in the White
House and recognizing that you maybe didn't love playing the
vicarious role ended up fueling your interest in you know,
untethering yourself and and running for senate. Was that was
(24:30):
that part of the evolution for you? Yes, it was.
And I'll tell you the exact moment that it all
came together, because I had, as I said, no idea
that I would ever actually run for office. And then,
you know, having um been in the White House and
knowing that it was going to end, you know, trying
to think about what I was going to do next
(24:53):
was pretty much on my mind. And after the mid
term elections when and then Senator moynihan said he wasn't
going to run again, immediately Democrats in New York started
calling me asking me to run, and and I'm sure
some of them thought I would be an excellent senator,
but a lot of them thought that, um, I was
(25:15):
the only person they could think of who was available,
who could beat Rudy Giuliani, who was running. So you know,
he had been mayor, he was obviously controversial, he was
obviously tough and all of that. So we hadn't seen
anything yet, which is anything. Well, he lost he lost
his mind. I think I don't know what happened to him.
(25:36):
But so people started calling me members of Congress and others,
and I kept saying no, no, no, no no. And
then in the spring of ninety nine, I was as
first lady in New York City at a high school
to promote women's sports. It was like a Title nine event,
and there was a new um documentary coming out about
(26:01):
women in sports, and the name of the documentary was
Dare to Compete. And of course, you know, the New
York papers are filled with people trying to get me
to run and my saying, you know, no, etcetera. And
the young woman who introduced me captain of you know,
basketball team, she introduced me, and then she bent over
and she whispered in my ear, dare to compete, Mrs Clinton,
(26:21):
dare to compete. I was so astonished by that, because
you know, I had spent many years urging women to compete,
you know, in sports and academics and science, in politics.
I campaigned for dozens of women running for Congress or governor,
(26:43):
whatever election it was. And I suddenly thought to myself,
maybe you're afraid to compete. Maybe you are telling people
to do something that you wouldn't do yourself. And it
was literally at that moment that I took seriously running
for the Senate and working through it and trying to
(27:05):
be as honest with myself as I could. I thought, Okay,
I'm going to try this, and I had no idea
whether it would work or not, because when you're uh
supporting somebody else, and I'd support it, not just my husband,
but you know, hundreds of people, you know, it's always
about them, and then all of a sudden, you know
(27:26):
it's about you. And so it was. It was a
big transition. But it was that well, that young woman
at that moment that really, I think turned my head around.
What do you think you were scared of? I think
it was just the unknown. I think it was knowing
how hard politics is, because honestly I'm kind of an
(27:47):
expert on that. I thought, you know, I'm just gonna
be walking into the meat grinder. It's been, you know,
a very eventful eight years. I could go teach, or
write or do all kinds of interesting things. Why do
I want to do that? You know? Why do I
want to subject myself to that? And and remember I
had been burned in effigy long with other things, so
(28:11):
I knew I was already again because of all the
stuff I represented as a I don't know, baby boomer
woman who you know, didn't know her place. I guess
I had been, you know, subjected to so many attacks
from Rush Limbaugh and all the people like that. Why
did I want to do that? Why? And then I
(28:33):
kind of thought, Okay, you have been and you also
believe that there's a lot of things we need to do.
You've had a front row seat on history. So get
out there and try. You never know until you try. Um,
So that's what I ended up doing. Yeah. I think
it's easy for people to think of you now and
say Hillary Clinton came out of the box this way, right.
(28:55):
She was she always had the courage in bravery to
run for these big offices. But you know, you had
to go through your own personal evolution just like every
other person out there. Um, what were some if you
don't mind sharing, like, what were some insecurities that you
had along the way that you had to work through?
(29:16):
Oh my gosh. You know, once you're out there on
your own, you're not there too advocate for a program
or advocate for a candidate. You know, I think, um,
we're gonna be atty good at it. You know, you
go from behind the scenes to the front of the stage,
(29:37):
and how are people going to respond to you? And
are they going to believe you, listen to you, agree
with you? Um, is your personality? Is it going to
be enough? So yeah, I mean there's a lot of
of criticism, and then you know, you get all of
(29:57):
the gendered criticism like, um, don't wear that color where
this color, don't wear flat shoes where heels or vice versa,
don't let your hair grow, don't let your hair be short.
I mean, you everybody feels like they can critique a
woman in the public arena. They don't do that to men,
you know, nine percent of the time. And I had
(30:21):
some of the same experience when I practiced law, because
you know, there were expectations about what a woman lawyer
should look like. So I wasn't totally surprised, but the
amount of unsolicited advice that you start to receive, and
people say things like, you know, uh, learn to talk
like and then they always fell on a man's name,
(30:42):
like learn to talk like Bill Clinton, learned to talk
like Winston Churchill. I remember somebody said all of these
kind of uh, you know, expectations that are not at
all who you are, and what you have to do
is just earned to be yourself, and just be yourself
(31:03):
and do the best you can, and then you know
you'll either be successful or not, but at least you'll
be true to yourself. I have been pretty much the
same person says that was a little girl, and I
think your insights into how that rattled a lot of
people in terms of what was to be expected. But
(31:26):
I also think that it still is affecting women across
the board in every walk of life, and so you
have to first of all be at peace with who
you are, then try to translate that into the role
you're playing in an effective way, whether it's private or
personal or public, and just get the most out of
(31:50):
every day. Constiu, constute, if we hadn't talked so much
about me, I have a lot of questions for you.
(32:11):
I think you're slightly more interesting than me, So I'm
glad we spent the time this way. It was such
a pleasure. Good luck too, and I hope I get
to meet you in person. Take care, Yes, I hope
so too. All right, take care, Okay, bye bye, Hey,
thanks for listening. See you next week when I'm going
to be talking to change expert Dr Katie Milkman about
(32:31):
science based strategies to help you inspire change in your
own life. And I was in the seminar and a
graph went up, which normally doesn't change your life, but
this graph changed my life. The graph just showed a
breakdown of how many premature deaths are due to different causes,
and of premature death turn out to be the result
(32:52):
of decisions that we can change. Do you have a
Slight Change of Plans story that you'd like to share?
Are leave a message on our change hotline at nine
one seven, five four four eight, nine seven seven. It
could just end up on a future episode of this show.
That's nine one seven, five four four eight nine seven seven.
(33:14):
You can follow us on Twitter at Slight Change Pod.
A Slight Change of Plans is created, co written, and
executive produced by me Maya Shunker. It's produced and co
written by Mola Board. Associate producer is David John, Executive
producer is Justine Lange, Editor is Jen Guera. Sound design
(33:35):
and mixed engineering from Jason Gambrel and Ben Holliday. Our
theme song is I Can Change by Lake Street Dive.
Original music for the series by Jason Gambrel, additional music
from Blue Dot Sessions and Epidemic Sound, and of course
a very special thanks to Jimmy Lee. To learn more
about a Slight Change of Plans and to sign up
(33:57):
for our newsletter, visit Pushkin dot fm. You can follow
us at at Pushkin Podcasts on social media, and if
you like a Slight Change of Plans, please remember to subscribe,
share rate, and review. It helps get the word out
so more people can find the show. To find more
Pushkin podcasts, listen on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,
(34:18):
or wherever you listen to podcasts.
Host
Hillary Clinton
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